Kent State Shooting Tape Released, Shows Order to Shoot

By Jeralyn, Section Social Justice
Posted on Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:02:00 PM EST
Tags: Kent State (all tags)

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Bump and Update: You can listen to the tape here.

Original Post 4/30
Kent State Shooting Victim Asks for Re-opening of Investigation

May 4 marks the 37th anniversary of the shooting deaths of students at Kent State University. I write about it every year.

This year, there is news, and one of those injured in the shootings says he has new taped evidence to show there was an order given to open fire.

Alan Canfora, who was wounded in the right wrist during the 1970 anti-war protest, said he recently requested a government copy of the nearly 30-minute tape stored in the Yale University archive.

Just before a 13-second barrage of gunfire, a voice on the tape yells, "Right here! Get Set! Point! Fire!" Canfora said.

The tape will be released at a news conference tomorrow.

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming...

More...

It's important to remember what the students were protesting that day: On Thursday, April 30, 1970, President Richard Nixon told the American people that we were sending troops into Cambodia. He had been elected on his promise to end the war. Rallies began around the country on May 1.

As I wrote in 2004,

I remember where I was that day....I had just returned home from college in Ann Arbor to begin my summer job at the local record store. The news spread like wildfire, even without internet, email and cable tv. We all wore black armbands at work the entire next week and the music we played in the store reflected our anger.

Four years later (30 years ago today) May 4, 1974, I was sworn in as a lawyer to the Colorado bar and began my career as a defender of constitutional rights and the accused. Without a doubt, the draft lottery, the Vietnam war, LBJ, Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon were factors in my choice, and I'm proud to say I've never once looked back to question it.

Here's a poignant, first-hand account of what transpired that day at Kent State.

And, as to Kent State's relevance today:

To forgive is a virtue, but forgetting is an indulgence we can ill afford. Our foreign policy establishment remains addicted to empire, and is possessed by a hubris that is arguably even greater than the one that got us into Vietnam. Until they learn the lessons that the anti-war movement tried to teach them, we can expect more Vietnams ahead of us.

Check out the Kent State University Library archive collection for more photos, news, analysis and first hand accounts.

< Did McCain Embolden Al Qaida? | Surging Toward Death >

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Kent State Shooting Tape Released, Shows Order to Shoot | 208 comments (208 topical)

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Alan Canfora's nuts. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
by nolo on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:20:24 PM EST

And I say this as a Kent alumna who's never been happy about the shootings, the way the investigation was handled, or the way the university's dealt with the memory of the event. But I lived in Kent for 10 years, and I know whereof I speak. Plus, will someone explain to me why Canfora's trying to get the government's copy of the tape when the original is sitting in a safety deposit box in private hands, somewhere in the Kent area?

It was all (5.00 / 2) (#3)
by jondee on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:29:29 PM EST

Walter Cronkites fault.

Seriously, after covertly working to sabotage the peace talks before the '68 election -- in the grand, Repub weasal tradition -- Nixon "ended the war" on virtually the same terms offered by the Johnson administration. Tens-of-thousands of bodies and souls later.

Btw, anyone know whatever happened to the undercover guy in the college student, hippie garb, firing into the crowd of students with a 45 ?

The link is sketchy (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by Deconstructionist on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 12:34:53 PM EST

but it seems he has listened to the private copy. Perhaps he wants to learn if the copy possessed by the government is of better quality which allows more to be heard or is longer and includes more of the event, etc.

In any event, is there any problem with a citizen obtaining acces to a record in the government's possession that cannot possibly have any bearing on national security?

He's listened to the Yale University copy (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by nolo on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:17:42 PM EST

But for some reason the article is silent as to whether the original tape (which is not in the hands of the government, but is in the hands of the private citizen who made it, who happens to live in the Kent area) has been made available to Canfora, or as to whether Canfora has made any attempt to get access to the original.

[ Parent ]

Eh? (none / 0) (#8)
by Gabriel Malor on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:06:02 PM EST

Decon, my impression was he was already given access to a government copy. But maybe it's just poor writing in that article.

In any case, there are plenty of reasons other than national security that the government can use to decline to turn over records. The most important that I can think of are portions of the Privacy Act and FOIA. Specifically, 5 U.S.C. § 552(b)(7)(c) which exempts from disclosure records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes which may reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

That section of the act was used to keep an interested party from obtaining crime-scene photos in the Vince Foster case. Like Canfora, the guy seeking the records was trying to prove a government conspiracy. His request was denied because the court deemed release of the photos would be an unwarranted invasion of Foster's family's privacy.

[ Parent ]

I didn't (5.00 / 2) (#9)
by Deconstructionist on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:12:04 PM EST

ask if some (in my opinion overly expansive reading of the) exception to FOIA) could be constructed, I asked what is the problem with allowing a private citizen to it.

Maybe he is nuts. That shouldn't matter, should it? There is no longer any investigation which disclosure can compromise by revealing sources or techniques which would preven "justice" and invoke a larger interest than his personal interest in having it disclosed.

[ Parent ]

Shrug. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by Gabriel Malor on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:41:08 PM EST

There is no longer any investigation which disclosure can compromise by revealing sources or techniques which would preven "justice" and invoke a larger interest than his personal interest in having it disclosed.

You may be right, but Congress has disagreed and created a whole bunch of privacy protections, including the one I mentioned.

If the courts are consistent, they'd rule in this information requrest the same way they did before. In the case I mentioned, National Archives and Records Administration v. Favish, the investigation had been closed for years. Favish just wanted the photos so he could prove his conspiracy theory. The court ruled that he couldn't have access to the photos even though the subject of the photos, Vince Foster, was dead (and thus had no privacy right). In what was pretty novel at the time, the court "discovered" that the family had an independent privacy interest in the photos.

Analogizing to the Kent State tape, where individuals who were recorded may still be alive, there is an even stronger privacy case.

[ Parent ]

Do you not see a material difference (5.00 / 3) (#13)
by Deconstructionist on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:16:26 PM EST

between photographs portraying a gunshot victim and and an audio recording of this nature?

I didn't even mention the "personal privacy" exception in my response because, at least based on what I have read (which is limited to the stuff here) I don't see how the personal privacy exception even arguably comes into play. Whose privacy would be protected by withholding access to this audio?

[ Parent ]

: The subjects of the tape. (none / 0) (#17)
by Gabriel Malor on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:44:42 PM EST

Decon, I'm not saying that you're necessarily wrong. In fact, I think the court got it wrong in Favish when it decided that the privacy interest in question doesn't have to belong to the subject of the government records. It should be noted that Foster's family wasn't even a party to the litigation; the court decided on its own that they had a privacy right which precluded release of the photos.
However, I think the two cases are very similar: a federal agency has records which, long after the case has been closed, a private citizen wants to use to "prove" their pet conspiracy theory. I don't think there is a "material difference" between photos and an audio recording. Both can be evidence of a crime, both are subject to the usual Fourth Amendment rules regarding seizures.
Congress has become seriously concerned about privacy issues. Statutes, like the one I quoted, are created to protect the rights of people who have had information about them placed in the hands of the government--much like those who were recorded at Kent State. It is their privacy that would be protected by withholding this tape.
Privacy rights like this are part of a balance of competing interests. First, we want access to information the government takes possession of, because it's our government. Second, the government may have an interest in keeping some of that information private (for example, things which may compromise national security). Third, private citizens also have an interest in keeping their personal information private, even after that information has been collected as part of a government report or using the government's law enforcement powers.
People argue, "well I'm fine with privacy, but what is it really going to hurt to release just this one tape?" My answer is, "I don't know; I'd never even heard of Kent State before this morning." This is not something that requires much of a judgment call. It is reasonable to believe that the identity of individuals at Kent State could be discovered on the tape. Therefore, those individuals have a privacy interest which the government cannot just disregard--even though copies of the tape are already available to the public. That's just the way Congress wrote the law.

[ Parent ]

My thoughts exactly (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 01:22:52 PM EST

How proof that an actual verbal order to shoot on the part of one or more ONG officers on the ground is "proof" of a higher-level conspiracy escapes me. Now, if you had proof that someone higher up had instructed the ONG officers to give a shoot to kill order, that might be different -- but that's not what seems to be at issue here.

: Not conspiracy (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by magster on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:20:37 PM EST

but just good ol' premeditated murder. The voice does not sound scared, the shooters nail two kids who weren't even protesting, one of them in the back.
What needs doing is to find the identity of the speaker.

[ Parent ]

A force to be reckoned with (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by jondee on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:43:56 PM EST

and a legend in his own mind.

The article says (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by Al on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 05:09:28 PM EST

OK, then. Let's hear what it says.

Missing the Point? (5.00 / 3) (#29)
by JHFarr on Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:36:06 PM EST

Maybe you lawyer folks can find some reason to differentiate between whether an order to fire was actually given or not. I've always assumed there was, and if the guardsmen fired "accidentally" or spontaneous, what's the difference? I always figured that some of them wanted to fire. The notion that they were afraid of the crowd never did hold water with me.

I was a (very) young junior college instructor at the time of the shooting. It made more of an impact on me than anything else that happened during the Vietnam war. It was the defining moment of the whole era for me, the one event above all others that told me the dominant culture was not my tribe.

I'm 61 years old. Nothing has changed. THAT'S what the Kent State shootings were all about. It matters not a whit to me whether an actual order to fire was ever given.

Curious (1.00 / 1) (#30)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:14:26 AM EST

Maybe you could explain what the Kent State event was all about and why it's significant for us today. I read the zdnet article that Jeralyn linked, but it just turned into a rambling complaint about the U.S. trying to colonize Indochina.

I guess, what I'm asking, as someone who'd never even heard of the "Kent State Massacre" before reading about it here, "Why is this important, beyond the momentary curiosity about whether the shooting was accidental or ordered (and, of course, whether federal privacy laws would allow the release of the FBI copy of the tape;)?"

[ Parent ]

Really, Malor (5.00 / 5) (#32)
by Al on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:15:13 AM EST

are you for real? A bunch of university students were attacked by the National Guard and four of them were shot dead -- four young students shot dead -- because they were protesting the invasion of Cambodia. What don't you understand? Protesters killed by military? This not sound important to you? You proposing a model of a society where this sort of event is not important?

What is wrong with you, man?

[ Parent ]

Al (3.00 / 2) (#36)
by ding7777 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:49:12 AM EST

A bunch of university students were attacked by the National Guard and four of them were shot dead -- four young students shot dead -- because they were protesting the invasion of Cambodia.

As with any controversy, there is more than what you just summarized.

You negelect to mention the non-students on campus.

You neglect to mention the burning ROTC building.

You neglect to mention the bonfires and private property trashing all during the weekend.

You neglect to mention the students throwing rocks at the Guards.

You neglect to mention that Kent State and Guard officials believed the Gov Rhodes prohibited rallys.

Even though there's 2 sides, none of it justfies or even explains why

twenty-eight Guardsmen suddenly turn around 180 degrees, walk back a few steps, and fire their weapons into the group located in the parking lot. Sixty-one shots are fired in thirteen seconds. Four students are killed and nine others injured

May 4th Chronology

[ Parent ]

Really, really. (1.00 / 3) (#33)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:52:04 AM EST

Al, I'm very much "for real." If you were discussing any of millions of deaths in the last thousand years, I would say the same thing: "Neat. Now, why is this important?" There's gotta be something about this event that makes it significant, beyond the fact that people died. Death is not an uncommon thing.

Your answer, though deliberately unhelpful, at least gives me some idea of why you think it's significant. The idea of protesters being killed by the National Guard seems to strike some powerful resonance with you. We also know that the Kent State Massacre and the Vietnam War as a whole had an life-changing impact on Jeralyn. But I'm asking, "Why is this important to me?"

On the one hand, we could go with the author of the zdnet piece that Jeralyn linked: "Until they learn the lessons that the anti-war movement tried to teach them, we can expect more Vietnams ahead of us." Except that's more of an indictment of the Vietnam War, than it is about the relevance of Kent State.

I suppose we could try and draw an analogy to the anti-war movement of today, except that there is no student protest movement like that of the Vietnam War, and there certainly aren't any National Guard shootings.

The best thing I can come up with is the standardized, "Don't forget history or it will find a way to kick you in the rear when you least expect it."

For what it's worth, Al, I get the feeling that the issues surrounding the Vietnam War may be forever stuck in an insurmountable generational gap. I didn't live through it. It's just history to me. It's so remote that there's an entire generation between it and me.

The Kent State Massacre is not something that's discussed much these days. They don't teach it in schools. Wikipedia doesn't even have a comprehensive page on it (and that's a telling indication of its modern impact!). As formative as it and the Vietnam War were for people like Jeralyn, the life-changing events of my young life are entirely different in kind.

So when I see it discussed here, I think, "What a screwed up world you guys lived in. Why did you live like that? (I often think the same thing when I hear or see historical recordings of politicians and other leaders.) Thank God I live today."

[ Parent ]

re: Really, really. (5.00 / 4) (#37)
by RichardP on Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:53:47 AM EST

The Kent State Massacre is not something that's discussed much these days. They don't teach it in schools. Wikipedia doesn't even have a comprehensive page on it (and that's a telling indication of its modern impact!)

You're mistaken. Not only was it covered in my modern American history class in high school, but Wikipedia has an extensive page on the Kent State shootings - including a detailed timeline, discussion of the aftermath, long term effects, a list of cultural references, and a decent bibliography.

[ Parent ]

Site (1.00 / 3) (#42)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:53:28 AM EST

Thanks, Richard, for the link. For some reason, when I googled it brought me to a different page.

[ Parent ]

: The (1.00 / 0) (#80)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:01:30 AM EST

Incompetency Defense, Gabe?

[ Parent ]

Gabriel, it is with profound sadness (5.00 / 2) (#98)
by conchita on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:47:21 AM EST

that I think about Kent State. It was for me, as for JHFarr above, a defining moment where I realized that we were not all on the same page, that we could not trust law enforcement to understand or justly enforce laws. It was a surreal moment equal to the assasination of JFK. Even stronger than the outrage was a crumbling inside - to realize that it had actually happened that National Guardsmen had fired on and killed students exercising their first amendment rights. I live in New York just blocks away from Madison Square Garden and during the Republican National Convention my neighborhood became a police state. There were hundreds of police officers on my block alone and they brought van loads of them dressed in riot gear, hiding behind barricades, to menace protesters. At one point, at the intersection of 29th Street and Eighth Avenue, they refused to allow the protesters out of one of the metal cages used to separate the groups to proceed to the next block. As the situation became increasingly tense, my heart was pounding and all I could think was that we were going to have another Kent State. I was standing outside the cage and could observe the chaos in the line of command of the NYPD, and it was terrifying. They were the ones with the guns, and batons, and riot gear, yet they were afraid of protesters holding signs and chanting "let us through". These were not frightening people, they were college students, middle-aged, even older - concerned Americans wanting to be heard. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and I suspect the FBI overroad the NYPD. Because of where I was standing I had access to the person who ended up calling the shots and it is to his credit that he defused the situation by opening the gates and letting people through. He was about my age and chances are he remembered Kent State too.

[ Parent ]

: Thanks. (1.00 / 1) (#114)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:15:29 PM EST

Thanks, conchita. I hadn't considered the link between Kent State and the convention.

[ Parent ]

Ah, I get it (5.00 / 2) (#106)
by Al on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:04:26 PM EST

You're a child. You wouldn't understand. If someone like you, a student of your own age, was shot dead by a guardsman on a college campus today, you would grow up pretty damn quick like many of us did back then. You would understand what "life-changing event" really means. I really hope that doesn't happen.

But you see, if the lessons learned by one generation are forgotten one or two generations down the line, then no progress is made. Look at the military: They have gone to fight in Iraq exactly the same way they fought in Vietnam. They lost Vietnam, and they have lost Iraq, and they still don't understand why. And the people who cheered Nixon on back then, and the people who cheer Bush and Cheney on today, they are all equally confused by the real world that doesn't fit with their fantasies, and they still don't understand why.

Open your eyes, kid, before you get to be forty and it's too late.

[ Parent ]

Addendum: (1.00 / 3) (#34)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:04:57 AM EST

Why does this have to be a freak out moment, Al. Does our every conversation have to contain sputtering outrage? Consider me a young product of the public schools and I've presented you with a teachable moment.

[ Parent ]

This is the biggest load of (5.00 / 4) (#35)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:44:37 AM EST

sociopathic fake posturing I've seen you spew out in awhile Gabe. Puff out your chest, strut, preen, and show everybody you're so tough that the deaths of a few people are like "so? big deal - lot's more where they came from - real men don't care" You trying to give that old pro ppj some competition? Found a role model you want to be if you grow up?

Heh. Maybe you could take up naval aviation?

[ Parent ]

Sheesh. (2.00 / 4) (#48)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:16:46 AM EST

Edger, please stop hyperventilating for a second. I'm asking a reasonable question, here. There's no need for all the confrontational freak-out.

[ Parent ]

Oooooh. (5.00 / 2) (#50)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:23:55 AM EST

An exposed nerve there, Gabriel? Sorry to point out that your post is full of deliberate falsehoods and obvious spin, but hey... it's what I do, you know?

;-)

[ Parent ]

Gabriel - Are you surprised? (3.00 / 2) (#108)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:08:46 PM EST

Here are edger's guidelines..

by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:17:12 PM EST ......
Anyone who wants me or others to be constrained from saying things that insult so that they will NOT feel constrained from doing things that kill, is trying to draw equivalence where there is none, and deserves absolutely no respect, civility, or any kind of tolerence whatever.

Thanks, Jim. (5.00 / 1) (#113)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:12:14 PM EST

Again you save me the trouble. Once in awhile you forget yourself and say something reasonable.

[ Parent ]

and gabriel (1.00 / 2) (#136)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:28:03 PM EST

Here is what edger believes in about free spech and people disagreeing with him.

by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:18:25 PM EST
Do we offer them respect? Absolutely not. We do our best to marginalize and get rid of them.

: Here is the link you were looking for, ppj (1.00 / 0) (#173)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:40:53 PM EST

You know... The context you don't want anyone reading or you would have provided the link.

[ Parent ]

Interesting read... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by flowergrl2 on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:07:07 AM EST

I have been reading about the Kent State Shootings a lot today. Found a very interesting blog with posted letters between President Schwartz of Kent State and a "TG"....other letters between an Kent State Professor and "TG"....1st letter of the professor on the blog is quite interesting......it's about a suspicious "SS" Person with held names. Maybe someone else will find the information as fascinating as I did.

www.staunchwoman.blogspot.com

Kent State... (5.00 / 6) (#38)
by Deconstructionist on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:18:31 AM EST

was a seminal event in American history. The use of deadly force by American military personnel on American soil against American ciitizens was a watershed moment in the Vietnam era. More than merely enraging the "anti-war movement" the event put on stark display the extent to which the war had divided the country and caused many to reevaluate both the war and the government which was waging it.

Not only was the killing of Americans by Americans shocking, this was not Berkeley or Columbia, but a middle class public institution in "the heartland."

I'm amazed, Gabriel, that as someone who seems to be an educated person, you never heard about it before. Do publc schools not teach modern American history anymore?

One need not ascribe to any theory that Nixon and Kissinger plotted to kill kids in Ohio to acknowledge the significant and lasting impact of this tragedy. When college students get killed on a college campus by military personnel that's more significant historically than when it is done by a unbalanced individual.

Gabriel, you can argue that the baby boomers are largely a self-indulgent and self-reverential bunch and cite many examples to support that thesis, but the continued interest in Kent State and how and why it happened -- and how we can make sure it doesn't happen again -- is not a good example to cite.

Public Schools? (5.00 / 2) (#57)
by Peaches on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:20:28 AM EST

History? Kent State no longer a part of the curriculum. Not part of the standardized tests? Isn't important to "No Child Left behind? Gabriels apparent educational success, and well on his way to a long and successful career as an American taxpayer (albeit a reluctant tax payer) and contributing member of a pecuniary economy without the slightest base in important and crucial events in history that should shape and form the morale background of our democratic society, while exceptionally versed in logic, neoclassical economics, and the autonomous agent.

Public schools produced Gabriel and millions just like him? Seriously, no offense Gabriel, but why am I not surprised by this failure in our public schools? Or should I more accurately say, this success (after all there is a goal in public school education) in our public schools.

[ Parent ]

S'ok. (5.00 / 1) (#76)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:53:27 AM EST

No offense taken, Peaches.

When I made my upthread comment, I was hoping to hear more on why Kent State is an "important and crucial event in history," rather than simply have screamed at me: "It's important. It's obvious that it's important. You suck!" That's why I examined the article that Jeralyn linked and explored some other possibilities about why Kent State is still relevant today.

Obviously this is still an emotional issue and that that makes it difficult for some people. I can sympathise. I imagine that in 35 years my reaction to some whipper-snapper who says he's never heard of 9/11 will be similar.

[ Parent ]

Why Kent State was important to me (5.00 / 3) (#81)
by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:03:31 AM EST

I was in high school back then. The war was far away but my male friends were watching draft lottery numbers and thinking about Canada and their lives being ruined. They had no say politically as this was the day of the 21 yr old vote.
The only way to protest was to do so, and protests were by and large peaceful events. It was an absolute shock and revelation to have white middle-class students killed in the heartland.
It brought the war and the reality of our elders home to the pampered youth of the '60's in a way nothing else could.
I lived in Princeton - and the Cambodian invasion and Kent State woke up that campus of conservative upper class students. We (Princeton and HS students) surrounded the Institute for Defense Analysis and camped there for over a week.

[ Parent ]

: Thanks. (1.00 / 1) (#84)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:08:35 AM EST

Thanks, Carolyn. It had also slipped my mind that the Twenty Sixth Amendment didn't occur until after Kent State.

[ Parent ]

Public schools (5.00 / 2) (#78)
by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:55:04 AM EST

I note that they discourage critical thinking, history textbooks give the establishment view and gloss over anything controversial. You may get a civics class but I haven't seen that used in conjunction with current events.
Of course there are exceptions but current schools (and NCLB) are geared to create a compliant population of workers for corporations. Thinkers need not apply.

[ Parent ]

Carolyn in Baltimore (1.00 / 4) (#85)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:13:36 AM EST

The reason that Civics should not get into current events is that gets into politics. Troublesome in college because it lets the profs bias come into play, but the student has some, a small degree, of maturity to filter it with.

It should be forbidden in K thru 12 because the student has only a limited maturity and almost no experience.

Teach'em the basics and they'll be okay.

[ Parent ]

Keep 'em (5.00 / 3) (#86)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:15:25 AM EST

dumbed down on the farm? Good plan. It's the only way for rethugs to survive.

[ Parent ]

edger (1.00 / 1) (#137)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:30:43 PM EST

Like I say, give'em the basics and let'em go..

You of course want no discussions:

Do I have to provide the link to my quote (5.00 / 1) (#140)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:43:49 PM EST

that you won't provide out of fear of the context, Jim? Or you'd rather try to keep people dumbed down?

[ Parent ]

edger (5.00 / 0) (#151)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:20:08 PM EST

You can provide what ever you want.

[ Parent ]

: I don't need to. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:21:08 PM EST

You're doing a fine job of burying yourself and the rethugs on your own. Keep up the good work. :-)

[ Parent ]

Hitchens, your hero Speaks (5.00 / 1) (#142)
by squeaky on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:52:01 PM EST

No marganalization with him. Just get rid of the dissenters by force. After calling them fascists, that is.

How unAmerian.

digby

[ Parent ]

yeah well (5.00 / 1) (#146)
by Jen M on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:54:05 PM EST

History is definately one of the basics.

[ Parent ]

: Jen M (1.00 / 2) (#152)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:21:19 PM EST

I didn't say don't teach history. Just don't use current events in Civics.... or History for that matter,

[ Parent ]

Unlike Malor (5.00 / 3) (#111)
by Al on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:09:41 PM EST

you hardly qualify as a child. It doesn't surprise me that you don't want today's generation to think about politics. If young people thought seriously about politics, they would trample all over people like you. Your bias is transparent to a ten-year-old.

[ Parent ]

: Al (none / 0) (#138)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:32:48 PM EST

Yes, my bias is to give K-12 a good quality education with all the basics covered and send them off to college where they can debate the issues.
If that is a bias, I plead guilty.

[ Parent ]

Current event!? (5.00 / 2) (#118)
by Sailor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:28:44 PM EST

The reason that Civics should not get into current events

37 years ago is hardly current.

enforced ignorance ... that certainly explains most of ppj's comments.

Civics should start as soon as one is born, an informed citizenry is the keystone to democracy.

[ Parent ]

Sailor (none / 0) (#139)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:42:59 PM EST

Pay attention. From your comment

From CIB's comment.

You may get a civics class but I haven't seen that used in conjunction with current events.

From my reply:

The reason that Civics should not get into current events is that gets into politics.

From your comment:

How does it feel to call someone ignorant while proving to the world that:

You don't read the comments before you engage your fingers.
You evidently don't know the difference betweem "current events" and something that happened 37 years ago.

As F. Gump opined:

Stupid is as stupid does.

You're right (none / 0) (#143)
by Sailor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:52:06 PM EST

Most folks would assume that since this thread was about kent state you would be writing about the topic of the thread.

I should no better than to expect you to stay on topic.

The comment about an informed citizenry stands.

[ Parent ]

Sailor You just don't know when to quit (none / 0) (#155)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:58:42 PM EST

You wrote:

Most folks would assume that since this thread was about kent state you would be writing about the topic of the thread

Well, if you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen that Carolyn was responding to Deconstructionist comment at 7:18, tittled:

"Kent State" in which he oponed:

To which Gabriel responded, then Peaches who opined at 10:20AM

History? Kent State no longer a part of the curriculum.

To which Carolyn in Balitimore opined at 10:55:

You may get a civics class but I haven't seen that used in conjunction with current events

To which my comment was. It shouldn't be.

So. You didn't read. I was on right on topic, discussing Kent State, the fall out, why many haven't heard of it, and should they.

As F Gump said:

That sound you hear is me laughing.

[ Parent ]

wrong again (1.00 / 0) (#157)
by Sailor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:06:01 PM EST

and yet another off topic personal attack

[ Parent ]

: sailor ;-) (1.00 / 1) (#158)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:23:56 PM EST

Wrong? Try following the comments in a nested mode..
And I agree it is hard to do..
See what a nice guy I am to help you??
;-)

[ Parent ]

Decon (2.33 / 3) (#44)
by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:04:02 AM EST

Do publc schools not teach modern American history anymore?

Well, yes. I'm pretty sure 20th Century American History was eleventh-grade. I know it was required to graduate. But we didn't cover Kent State when we hit Vietnam. Instead, we talked about Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon, the Gulf of Tonkin, asymetrical warfare, the draft, Soviet involvement, and general public opposition to the war. Campus shootings didn't come into it.

Gabriel, you can argue that the baby boomers are largely a self-indulgent and self-reverential bunch

Decon, please note that I haven't argued any such thing.

[ Parent ]

We'll See (5.00 / 2) (#40)
by maha on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:21:05 AM EST

I was a college student at the time of the Kent State massacre, and I was and still am outraged by the shooting.

However, I agree with the first commenter -- Alan Canfora is nuts. I'm curious about the tapes, but I'll believe what they say when I hear them.

Without going into detail -- after the shootings there were some allegations that Canfora's actions before and during the confrontation on the Commons had helped get students killed and wounded. My impression is that Canfora has spent the long years since obsessed with pinning the blame for the shootings entirely on the authorities and absolving himself. Judging by some of his own writing, he's come a bit unglued.

The shootings were entirely unjustified, of course. Regarding who ordered what, we know the guardsmen had been given an order to "lock and load." I understand there are photographs of the shooting itself showing that 20 of the 28 guardsmen fired into the air, and 8 aimed directly at the student demonstrators. I suspect there was an order to fire into the air, and the 8 who did otherwise either didn't understand or willfully disobeyed. If they were ordered to fire at the students I'd like to know about it.

maha (1.00 / 2) (#45)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:04:50 AM EST

I have never paid much attention to it, just put it down to being a government wrong provoked/caused by anti-war wrongs...

And no, I'm not blaming the "victims," just noting that bad things happen when two emotionally overcharged groups get together.

However, your comment:

I suspect there was an order to fire into the air, and the 8 who did otherwise either didn't understand or willfully disobeyed.

is interesting. "Get Set! Point! Fire" makes sense if the order was to fire into the air.

[ Parent ]

Reading you here is really yucky (5.00 / 4) (#46)
by Militarytracy on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:08:33 AM EST

Bad things do not happen in emotionally charged situations when one entity is American civilians and the other entity is it's own military. My husband was a tot when Kent state happened but the very idea of it gives him the chills. He works for American civilians, he doesn't open fire on them!

[ Parent ]

It doesn't bother ppj at all (5.00 / 2) (#47)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:14:10 AM EST

It's all just 'theoretical' to him.

They weren't real people or they wouldn't have protested the war. They were emboldening they enemy. And if they didn't deserve it they wouldn't have been shot.

[ Parent ]

Tracy (1.00 / 3) (#53)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:43:32 AM EST

sigh....

Bad things do not happen in emotionally charged situations when one entity is American civilians and the other entity is it's own military.

What? Are you denying what happened?

I repeat.

Is there something there you don't understand? Not enough outrage to make you feel all warm and fulfilled?

Tell you what. Just for Tracy.

There I stamped my foot and held my breath until my face turned red...dangerous for an old man..

Now I would guess that if I had friends there, or had been there, I would have been maximum pis*sed.

But I wasn't. And in this life I have discovered that if you pay close attention and take care of you and yours, and do the right thing yourself, things seem to work themselves out.

In otherwords, there is a limit to the outrage you can carry around all the time and be a functional human being living a productive life. Save the heavy stuff for a time and place that you can have an impact.

BTW - Do you also believe that the FBI was wrong at Waco??

[ Parent ]

The FBI is not the National Guard (5.00 / 3) (#55)
by nolo on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:14:04 AM EST

And a botched siege by law enforcement personnel is not the same as the decision to mobilize military personnel against political protestors.

That being said, what's with the patronizing tone, ppj?

BTW -- If you think the FBI was wrong at Waco, you must be absolutely apoplectic over the MOVE bombing.

[ Parent ]

: nolo (1.00 / 2) (#74)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:50:43 AM EST

Nope, the issue is the same. Bad decisions, bad things done by government organizations placed in a stress situation.
Nope, not apoplectic, as I explained to Tracy.
Now, was the government wrong? Looks that way to me.
And your next question??

[ Parent ]

I know this soldier really well (5.00 / 3) (#61)
by Militarytracy on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:31:09 AM EST

who told me that Kent State happens again when we forget Kent State happened. I'm not saying it didn't happen and I'm saying that because it did happen we need to remember it and stop discounting it.....unless you want the National Guard opening fire on you next year for not much reason Jim other than you are expressing an opinion that the President doesn't like.

[ Parent ]

Tracy (1.00 / 4) (#83)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:08:24 AM EST

That's the history repeats itself and we need to do something about something to prevent it from happening again deal.

If you believe it about Kent State, why can't you believe it about OBL and all the warnings we have about what he and his minions want to do?

Remember Hitler's book?? Chamberlains mistakes?

Kent State, Move, Ruby Ridge, Waco, The seizing of Elian all of these things are the result of government agencies getting out of contol.

You can condmen that without holding hands and singing, "We are the world..."

BTW - When you were at the Springs, did you think about what happened to the coal miners??

BTW - I have always thought that picture of the INS guy and his asault rifle cost the Demos the election.

[ Parent ]

What is your major malfunction? (5.00 / 3) (#107)
by nolo on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:06:13 PM EST

And why are you taking it out on Tracy? Because your ranting is off-topic and appears to be a calculated attempt at insulting Tracy and trivializing her concerns about the matter that is the subject of this thread.

[ Parent ]

: It doesn't appear to be. (5.00 / 1) (#110)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:09:29 PM EST

It is.

[ Parent ]
: nolo (1.00 / 1) (#141)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:51:03 PM EST

Taking what out on Tracy??
From my experience she can take care of herself quite nicely, or maybe you are just jealous because she hasn't said she was going to spank you.
;-)
She brought the subject up, I answered. Given that the thread is in a general discussion re Kent State, and her unnamed friend saying that you must remember or it will happen again, and her apparent belief in that... I thought it curious that she apparently doesn't believe in that when it comes to the WOT, despite Hitler, WWII, etc...

[ Parent ]

Don't change the subject Jim (5.00 / 1) (#130)
by Jeralyn on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:09:01 PM EST

it's Kent State, not Waco.

[ Parent ]

Wow (5.00 / 5) (#41)
by Che's Lounge on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:43:11 AM EST

They don't teach it in schools.

As if they teach real history in schools. Gabe, you need to be drafted. Your attitude will change significantly. That is the reason there is no student revolt today. And also the reason there is no draft (yet).

Ding,

And you need to mention what the Govornor said:

"We're going to use every weapon possible to eradicate the problem."

It was a trailer. And who started it? And is the penalty usually death?

His whole post is nothing but strawmen (5.00 / 4) (#43)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:54:32 AM EST

He thinks he's learned something from ppj, and thinks he's smarter. If he's not careful he's liable to become ppj if he grows up.

I'm often asked why the students on campuses everywhere are not as active in opposing the Iraq war, occupation and debacle as loudly and visibly and strongly as students opposed the Viet Nam War so many years ago now.

The answer is, they are. The difference is, the media is ignoring them.

Iraq Anti-War Movement - Where Are The Students ?

I don't live close to a large university (5.00 / 5) (#52)
by Militarytracy on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:31:57 AM EST

right now but before we left Colorado Springs as Fort Carson was loading up trains with tanks the protests were huge. I took part in some of them and only ever saw them blurbed on the news if anything was said at all. We marched in the downtown area once and people came out of the stores and cafes to join us. I know for a fact that protesting gets no media play. In Crawford the counterprotesters only showed up for half an hour and they got as much media play as those of us who sat there for hours and days protesting! Talk about not fair or balanced. When I complain though my husband tells me that with these people the fair is in the fall ;(

[ Parent ]

Yes (5.00 / 4) (#54)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:45:09 AM EST

If the media was reporting on campus demonstrations as honestly as they did in the sixties there would probably be nothing else on tv...

The Students are Stirring: A Campus Antiwar Movement Begins to Make Its Mark

[ Parent ]

::Some:: of the media is responsible (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:20:09 AM EST

Old School Student Protest Returns
The Nation: SDS Marches On With Zeal Not Seen Since Vietnam Era

"Many of us at Ohio University have taken classes on the principles of democracy, on justice, on ethics," says Klatt, "and with the presumption that we will use this knowledge, acquired in our classes, to become more informed citizens. Yet this knowledge we acquire is nothing if we do not put it into practice."
...
Angry at the Iraq debacle, emboldened by the Bush-Cheney tailspin, a new student radicalism is emerging whose concerns include immigrants' rights, global warming and the uncertainties facing debt-ridden graduates. Such considerations distinguish the new SDS from its historical namesake, which took shape in a very different context of economic affluence and establishment liberalism.

Anti-War Protests in DC (Video)

[ Parent ]

edger (1.00 / 5) (#67)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:44:00 AM EST

Twenty-year-old Will Klatt, wearing a green knit hat,

Ah yes, the voice of experience speaks.

Or is it..

The voice of someone who has had their head poured full of nonsense by a biased class???

[ Parent ]

Like (5.00 / 1) (#79)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:59:07 AM EST

this, ppj?

[ Parent ]

Nice photoshop (5.00 / 0) (#105)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:03:43 PM EST

What a good looing nurse!

And where did you get my picture??? Of course I was much younger then..

[ Parent ]

Your picture? (5.00 / 1) (#134)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:19:13 PM EST

You've been a cartoon since you were much younger?

[ Parent ]

The nuse was expressing (1.00 / 0) (#122)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:46:46 PM EST

professional grade empathy, Jim. They pay her well.

[ Parent ]

err... ::nurse:: (1.00 / 0) (#124)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 12:51:43 PM EST

edger (1.00 / 2) (#164)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:50:08 PM EST

Don't be jealous. Get an important job and you too can get a credit card..

[ Parent ]

OFF TOPIC (5.00 / 2) (#166)
by Sailor on Wed May 02, 2007 at 03:57:02 PM EST

personal attack

[ Parent ]

I didn't really take it that way Sailor ;-) (5.00 / 1) (#167)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:04:02 PM EST

It was more of an off topic attempt at being revolting. That he does quite well. It's all he has left.

[ Parent ]

: Well (1.00 / 0) (#169)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 04:05:30 PM EST

Not quite all. He's also got Peaches giving him high fives for being revolting. ;-)

[ Parent ]

Sailor (5.00 / 0) (#177)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:19:26 PM EST

Can the corn, put your glasses on and read, sailor.

You've already been caught not doing it one time to day.

[ Parent ]

: Is two your personal best?? (1.00 / 1) (#178)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:20:47 PM EST

Like (3.00 / 2) (#79)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:59:07 AM EST
this, ppj?

[ Parent ]

edger - Please quit using your own blog (1.00 / 3) (#49)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:23:50 AM EST

as a reference... I hate to waste a otherwise perfectly good "click."

The reason is that there is no draft.

Many of the Vietnam protests were driven by a fear of being drafted. Others were attended by "it's the thing to do" syndrome. Many young people are attracted by crowds of other young people... see the "celebrations/riots" after a city has won a "championship"... as a bud once told me, they were great places to meet girls...

BTW - What part of his comment is not true??

BTW - You should look at some of the roots and associations of the organizations involved int the current protests.

See the leader at the bottom of the link.

I wonder if her grandmother was at Kent State??

[ Parent ]

If you stayed on it longer than 1 second (5.00 / 3) (#58)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:23:07 AM EST

you might have learned something. Sorry to put you in such an uncomfortable situation. Maybe I should rename it? How about "The Mirror"? That kind of has a nice ring to it.

[ Parent ]

edger (1.00 / 3) (#69)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:44:59 AM EST

Then link to it instead of trying to build phony traffic figures.

[ Parent ]

Heh! (5.00 / 2) (#72)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:49:29 AM EST

I did. You were there. Remember? ;-) But you got scared and ran away.

[ Parent ]

My gag reflex cut in. (1.00 / 1) (#145)
by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:54:00 PM EST

Fact and reason (5.00 / 1) (#150)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:18:02 PM EST

in the face of delusion will do that. I sympathize... but I'm over it now.

[ Parent ]

: Heh! (1.00 / 0) (#153)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:27:00 PM EST

I have to go out now, Peaches. I'll be back soon though. It could be 5 minutes or it could 5 hours. Stay tuned with your finger on that button, huh? You might miss one. ;-)

[ Parent ]

Anybody have any factual references (5.00 / 3) (#51)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 09:27:11 AM EST

to times outside a combat situation when Guard troops have opened fire on anybody without an explicit order to do so?

My understanding is that the National Guard (5.00 / 2) (#59)
by Militarytracy on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:24:59 AM EST

at Kent State was very green. Most people don't like to kill, not even soldiers. Our soldiers are taught a lot about restraint now and how to use that but I don't know how much they did that then and with young National Guard they may have had very little of that if any. I am told that lack of such training, unfamiliarity, along with fear and vague orders given like "contain the crowd" can lead to a Kent State happening. Whoever said fire if anyone did actually say it could have been anyone, it could have been a very frightened private.

[ Parent ]

Would the shooters take orders (5.00 / 1) (#63)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:34:22 AM EST

like that from a frightened private?

[ Parent ]

Some people in this house (5.00 / 2) (#77)
by Militarytracy on Wed May 02, 2007 at 10:54:08 AM EST

say that soldiers who are young that are frightened and have little training would do what happened at Kent State.

[ Parent ]

I'm confused. (5.00 / 1) (#91)
by Edger on Wed May 02, 2007 at 11:29:39 AM EST

Do you mean here at Talkleft? Or in your house?

[ Parent ]

: In my house house (1.00 / 0) (#160)
by Militaryt