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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:04:30 AM EST
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Some days, no matter how much time I spend blogging, there are topics I don't get to. Happily, others do. This is an open thread, and if you're looking for some good stuff to read, here's a start:

  • Omar Kadhr update on the Guantanamo prosecutor who recently quit. My last post on Omar is here, one with more case background is here and one on the quitting of Gitmo prosecutor Morris Davis is here.

  • Marcy of Next Hurrah typed her fingers off live-blogging the FISA hearings on Firedoglake and then updated on the WSJ op-ed supporting telecom immunity, noting Big Tent's post on that here.

More...

  • Long-time liberal bloggers will remember Brian Linse who writes Ain't No Bad Dude, but has been on hiatus for a while. He's been up to his ears with a movie the past two years. Turns out, he's the producer and it's coming out now. Go see Before the Devil Knows You're Dead, directed by Sidney Lumet with an all star cast. Congrats, Brain. The trailer is here.
  • The reduction in crack cocaine sentencing guidelines go into effect today. I have my first gulty plea under the new guidelines on Friday. They won't help my client but they are a good first step, and I'll have a post about them on Firedoglake at 1:00 PT.
  • Chris Bowers at Open Left has a post about the candidates and marijauana law reform.
  • On the Hillary "pile on" -- how others see us -- a post from the Dutch Van Der Galiën Gazette -- which, by the way, has one of the most attractive, cleanest looking Wordpress templates I've seen yet.
As for my afternoon, I got a call this morning from the mother of my first college boyfriend who back then used to live in Denver. It's been 30 years since I've seen or talked to her, and she must be 85 at least, but she sounded as spunky as ever and will be shopping in Cherry Creek today so we're going to meet for coffee. She's a phenomenal woman, a holocaust survivor with a great gift for story telling, but I almost dropped the phone to hear her voice after so long. Should be fun.

Ok, your turn.

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    Thursday Open Thread | 124 comments (124 topical)

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    The more things change (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Jen M on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:24:28 AM EST
    the more they stay the same.

    Torture: Posturing or taking an ethical stand

    Forced Dipomacy An Oxymoron (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 12:55:19 PM EST
    Iraq postings anger US diplomats

    Many positions are due to become vacant at the new Iraq embassy
    Hundreds of US diplomats have protested against a government move to force them to accept postings in war-torn Iraq.
    About 300 angry diplomats attended a meeting at the state department, at which one labelled the decision a "potential death sentence".

    bbc

    The US embassy in Iraq should be closed. It is not safe for the personnel there. Some sort of rump mission of hardy volunteers could be maintained. But kidnapping our most capable diplomats and putting them in front of a fire squad is morally wrong and is administratively stupid, since many of these intrepid individuals will simply resign. (You cannot easily get good life insurance that covers death from war, and most State spouses cannot have careers because of the two-year rotations to various foreign capitals, and their families are in danger of being reduced to dire poverty if they are killed).

    Juan Cole

    I wonder how many of those (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jondee on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:00:31 PM EST
    diplomats have ever spoken out against the "potential death sentence" faced by the soldiers and Iraqi civilians?

    [ Parent ]
    Many Have (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:16:23 PM EST
    Remember Joe Wilson? And here is one that wrote to Juan Cole

    'As a retired foreign service officer . . . at the State Department in Washington, I would like to add to your rationale for closing the US Embassy in Bagdad to save lives. In addition to the extreme danger involved, many of us would not go to Iraq because there is virtually nothing we can accomplish there. We could have no contact with ordinary Iraqis and would put our professional contacts or, for example, potential cultural exchange grantees, in great danger, simply by virtue of being seen with us, working with us, or participating in our programs. Unless some minimum level of security is established, we would be unable to achieve any worthwhile results, while causing great harm to cooperating Iraqis and their families--putting our own lives as risk for activities that would in the end likely prove useless and even shameful . . .'

    Cole points out:

    The Jesse Helms Right always hated the State Department, because it is about compromise and finding peaceful solutions, whereas the US Right is about war, violence and imposing its will on people. But is is the State Department that, despite some lapses over the decades, generally embodies the best of what America is abroad.


    [ Parent ]
    Well played, Squeaky (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by jondee on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:22:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I believe that when they hire (1.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:07:24 PM EST
    you....you agree to serve where directed.

    If the individuals involved don't want to go, there is an easy solution:

    Dear Boss:

    I quit.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:53:56 PM EST
    All the Diplomats may as well quit. THey are just windowdressing to make this administration appear to care about diplomacy.

    [ Parent ]
    And if they don't want to (1.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:38:03 PM EST
    follow the rules that were in place when they hired on, they should quit.

    I doubt they will/would be missed.

    [ Parent ]

    The Rules (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:45:07 PM EST
    Have always been that diplomats are pulled out of a war zone. They are just placeholders for Bush's Iraq palace, because there is nothing for them to do there except get shot at.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh really? (1.00 / 1) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 06:29:36 PM EST
    It is customary that diplomats are recalled when war is declared.

    There is no declared war in Iraq. Heck. I think you are one of the ones who said we won the war in 4 days and should just come home.

    And then there was Vietnam.

    And the rule that matters is the one that says:

    You will go where we say go and when we say go, just as it was explained to you when you took the job.

    [ Parent ]

    Ugh (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:55:42 PM EST
    Mega-depressing list of 25 underreported threats

    link via robot wisdom

    Some highlights or lowlights:

    In February 2007 the White House announced the formation of the US African Command (AFRICOM), a new unified Pentagon command center in Africa, to be established by September 2008. This military penetration of Africa is being presented as a humanitarian guard in the Global War on Terror. The real objective is, however, the procurement and control of Africa's oil and its global delivery systems.

    The enduring monument to US liberation and democracy in Iraq will be the most expensive and heavily fortified embassy in the world--and is being built by a Kuwait contractor repeatedly accused of using forced labor trafficked from South Asia under US contracts.

    Under the code name Operation FALCON (Federal and Local Cops Organized Nationally) three federally coordinated mass arrests occurred between April 2005 and October 2006. In an unprecedented move, more than 30,000 "fugitives" were arrested in the largest dragnets in the nation's history. The operations directly involved over 960 agencies (state, local, and federal) and were the brainchild of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and US Marshal's Director Ben Reyna.

    The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) flooded Mexico with cheap subsidized US agricultural products that displaced millions of Mexican farmers. Between 2000 and 2005, Mexico lost 900,000 rural jobs and 700,000 industrial jobs, resulting in deep unemployment throughout the country. Desperate poverty has forced millions of Mexican workers north in order to feed their families.
    The National Campesino Front estimates that two million farmers have been displaced by NAFTA, in many cases related to the increase in US imports. In 1994, the first year of the agreement, the United States exported $4.59 billion of agricultural products to Mexico, according to the Department of Agriculture. By 2006 the figure had risen to $9.85 billion--an increase of 114 percent. US exports of corn, Mexico's staple crop and largest source of rural employment, alone doubled to over $2.5 billion in 2006......
    .... It is not just a few companies seeking to cut corners. These are not just jobs that "US workers won't take." Migrants work in nearly all low-paying occupations and have become essential to the US economy in the age of global competition.
    And here is who these people are (1.00 / 2) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:56:00 PM EST
    Project Censored is a media research group out of Sonoma State University which tracks the news published in independent journals and newsletters. From these, Project Censored compiles an annual list of 25 news stories of social significance that have been overlooked, under-reported or self-censored by the country's major national news media.

    Best I can tell, no proof is provided, just claims the MSM is ignoring the story... How anyone can believe that the MSM ignored:

     

    more than 30,000 "fugitives" were arrested in the largest dragnets in the nation's history.

    is, well....... beyond belief.

    Squeaky, call home.


    [ Parent ]

    Write Them A Letter (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 11:50:40 PM EST
    And complain.

    [ Parent ]
    A figure of over 30,000 fugitives (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by Dark Avenger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:13:27 AM EST
    is cited on the home page of Operation Falcon.

    Google is your friend, unless all you want to do is b*tch and moan, which is a characteristic of some social liberals, sad to say.........


    [ Parent ]

    You failed to read the article linked to. (1.00 / 2) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:27:08 PM EST
    With the aid of the corporate media and an alliance of far-right organizations, Bush has successfully removed all the traditional obstacles to absolute power. The groundwork has been laid for an American dictatorship. FALCON is just one small part of that much larger plan.

    If you had then you would have understood this.

    tehe

    [ Parent ]

    I note that (1.00 / 2) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:04:49 AM EST
    B W Squeaky doesn't attempt to disagree with my most learned assessment....

    ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    Your Lazy Comment (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:42:21 AM EST
    Is not worth a response. If you had read more than the first paragraph of the FALCON article it would be clear to you why it is on the list of 25.

    But reading has never been your strong point.

    [ Parent ]

    The important thing is that (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:38 AM EST
    he's a man of faith. Ugg.

    [ Parent ]
    How do you know (1.00 / 2) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:13:40 PM EST
    what I have read? Do you now channel when you project or project when you channel?? ;-)

    Let me restate.

    I have a high degree of disbelief in the article, have seen nothing to back it up, and you have provided none except to claim that it's true.

    proof:

    evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.  

    1. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?  
    2. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.  
    3. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.  


    [ Parent ]
    Try Google (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:28:10 PM EST
    Dark Avenger has done your work, but there is plenty more.

    [ Parent ]
    I demonstrated that the figure cited (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Dark Avenger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:59:29 PM EST
    for Operation Falcon was correct, quoting a figure from the Opreation Falcon website, along with a link to said website.

    I had no comment about the truth of the article other than that.

    PPJ, in his usual inaccurate ranting style, makes a stupid remark in response to my post, but what else is new?

    Some people say that there are some senile social liberals posting on liberal websites, developing.........

    [ Parent ]

    Here's cognative dissonance at work: (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Dark Avenger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 08:36:45 PM EST
    You failed to read the article linked to. (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:27:08 PM EST

    and

    How do you know (1.00 / 1) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:13:40 PM EST
    what I have read? Do you now channel when you project or project when you channel?? ;-)

    As always, YMMV.

    [ Parent ]

    You also failed to read the comment (1.00 / 2) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:31:39 PM EST
    and thus couldn't connect the link with the paranoia stated in the article....

    It is not my place to hold your hand and say:

    Look DA! These guys are making wild charges about the Feds!!

    I did give you a hint with the aluminum helmet link but you were so eager to do your ankle biting trick you didn't read it.

    Thanks for proving my point.

    tehe

    [ Parent ]

    Mind-reading again, PPJ? (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by Dark Avenger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:32:40 PM EST
    I did give you a hint with the aluminum helmet link

    Let's see, PPJ, you cast doubts about a statistic in the article,I demonstrate that the figure is accurate.

    You then accuse me of not reading the article(which I didn't ever say I did) and you have your snitty link because grade-school level insults are all you have left when facts and logic have deserted you.

    As for paranoia, you're the one posting here about Shiara Law being present in America because a comic strip wasn't run in some newspapers, so your perspective on what is or isn't paranoid reasoning isn't that of a reasoned observer, but you knew that already.

    That was meant as constructive criticism, btw.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    As you well know (1.00 / 2) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:54:24 PM EST
    the issue is not the 30,000, but the off the wall charges, etc.

    Can you tell me what studio in Gollywood the lunar landing was shot in?

    What flights all the Jews left NYC on 9/10??

    The missile that hit the Pentagon?

    [ Parent ]

    Curve Ball's (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 02:48:46 PM EST
    identity is revealed on 60 Minutes.

    You remember him, "the man whose fabricated story of Iraqi biological weapons drove the U.S. argument for invading Iraq."

    It looks like (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:50:45 AM EST
    Iraq veteran Alex, who wrote The Real Deal as his response to Rush Limbaugh calling veterans opposed to the war "phony soldiers", has a pretty good shot at winning the 2007 Weblog Award for Best Military Blog.

    The Real Deal:

    When I was a kid I watched Rush with my dad every morning when he was still on TV and always found him pretty funny and clever. Over the years I didn't have a very concrete opinion about him, I just knew him as the kooky conservative radio host who defended Bush at every turn (and hey, so did I). What did Rush and I have to lose when the war in Iraq started in 2003? I didn't have any family in the military, and all my friends were too young to even enlist. Why not go kick the sh*t out of a country, as long as someone else was doing it?

    This was the last time Rush and I would agree on the war, so here's my opinion of you, Rush: you're as smart, selfless and courageous as I was as a 17 year old high school senior.

    You make a good point that people who joined the military during the war knew they were going and shouldn't be against it. As I've seen since I joined in 2004, everyone in the military is gung ho to a certain extent, at least in the beginning of their career. I was part of a large group of new guys who got to a unit that just got back from a year long deployment. After our hazing sessions became less and less frequent in the following months, we listened to the stories all of them were telling, of vicious firefights and rescue missions. We all wanted to do our part, we all wanted to get some too. We were going to see what it was like to take a life. Too bad Rush missed his chance to do so, or maybe he'd be singing a different tune.
    ...
    As a phony civilian hoping to be a phony soldier, I tried to enlist in the military after I graduated high school in 2003.
    ...
    Speaking of phony soldiers, I wanted to show Rush a few that I know: {click link above for Alex's pictures}
    ...
    This is Chevy in Baghdad. Brian Chevalier was going to reenlist but decided against it before he was killed on March 14 during our first mission in Baqubah. His phony life was celebrated in a phony memorial where everyone who knew him cried phony tears. A phony American flag draped over his phony coffin when his body came home. It was presented to his phony mother and phony daughter.

    I would be in awe if I ever met a real life soldier, and not a phony one like Bill, Matt or Brian Chevalier. Thank you, Rush Limbaugh, for telling me the difference. I hope your ass is ok.

    You can vote for Alex here.

    Alex's blog is (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:53:41 AM EST
    Army of Dude. Help him win the award. He deserves it.

    [ Parent ]
    Dog (none / 0) (#2)
    by eric on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    How about discussing Duane "Dog" Chapman?

    This guy has been a Talkleft favorite...what do people think about him now?

    LINK

    I'm surprised and saddened (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:39:10 AM EST
    by that clip. I'm glad he apologized. A&E apparently has suspended the show pending an investigation.

    On the other hand, it was a private phone call with his son that was surreptitiously (and, if neither Dog nor his son consented to the taping, illegally) recorded. I don't approve of that either.

    The Dog I know is not a racist and I've never heard  him utter a prejudicial word.

    I don't drop my friends when they face adversity.  There's no defending what he said, but I'll accept his apology.

    The sign of a true friend.... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:54:30 AM EST
    I don't drop my friends when they face adversity

    The Dog is lucky to call you one.

    [ Parent ]

    just because (none / 0) (#8)
    by cpinva on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 11:08:12 AM EST
    The Dog I know is not a racist and I've never heard  him utter a prejudicial word.

    you haven't, doesn't really mean anything. you don't live with him, nor are you around him 24/7/365. i believe billy joel wrote a song about this, "the stranger"; "we all have a face, that we hide away forever", or something like that. it's true of everyone.

    actually, i was less than stunned, when i read of this. it merely proves that, while you can take the trash out of the trailer park, you can't take the trailer park out of the trash.

    it's very noble of you to stand by your friends, but you're still known by the company you keep, as the old saying goes. there's a grain of truth in that, which is why it's an old saying.

    [ Parent ]

    Well unless the Dog you know (none / 0) (#40)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:51:30 PM EST
     sure throws #^$#^$%^% around a heck of a lot for a guy who isn't a racist. As the clip makes clear, in his own words,  one of the reasons he doesn't want the #%$^$^^$&^ around is because by being aroundd the &#&%&$^#$ will hear the word ##%^#^$^#%%##@ and might expose him and ruin him.

      I think he needs to look in the mirror to find the person who ruined him.

     

    [ Parent ]

    I doubt he is ruined..... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:00:00 PM EST
    everybody will forget in a week.

    Not for nothing...what kind of person sells info to the Enquirer?  The same kind of person who sells info to the police...a R-A-T.


    [ Parent ]

    Full audio (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:22:48 PM EST
    here.

    Ironic that the phone call he makes in which he voices his concern about the possibility that someone would record him saying the n-word and give that recording to the Enquirer thereby ruining his career, is itself recorded, is chock full of him using the n-word, and is given to the Enquirer possibly ruining his career.

    [ Parent ]

    Seems he had the girlfriend... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:24:56 PM EST
    pegged correctly as being of low character, fwiw.

    Shame he couldn't express that without racial epithets, but I'd be lying if I said I never used some nasty terms in anger I later regretted.  

    Most of all I'm reminded of why I'm glad I'm not famous...imagine if you had to wonder if every person you met was turning around and calling the Enquirer.  Thats gotta suck.  

    [ Parent ]

    Even worse (none / 0) (#59)
    by eric on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 07:46:16 PM EST
    Listening to this in full only lowers my opinion of him.

    He keeps saying that it isn't because the girlfriend is black, but because she is, she is likely to take it the wrong way when he says the N word.  You see, he isn't a racist or anything, it would just be better if his son had a white girlfriend who wouldn't get the wrong idea when he uses the N word.  

    Yikes.

    [ Parent ]

    So? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:25:37 PM EST
      the person who outed him as a foul mouthed racist is a rat. That isn't going to save his career no matter what the rat's motive might have been.

      I will (although I don't think  it applies to you) point out that quite a few people defended Aravosis ratting on gay people  and should probably refrain from criticizing this rat.

      You  condemn all rats without regard to motive or target. I can respect that.

    [ Parent ]

    Ethical Rat? (1.00 / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:35:27 PM EST
    Here:

    NEW YORK A reporter for The Village Voice helped discredit a key witness in a mob-related murder trial on Wednesday after his taped interview with the witness indicated she had changed her story. The move is expected to lead to a dismissal of the case.

    The New York Times reported Thursday that prosecutors seeking the murder conviction of former F.B.I. Supervisor Roy Lindley DeVecchio said they would drop the case after the Voice's Tom Robbins revealed his interview tape.

    DeVecchio, 67, was charged with helping a mob informant commit four murders in the 1980s and 1990s, the Times reported.



    [ Parent ]
    Technically.... (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:27:38 PM EST
    the reporter ratted on a rat, not sure what the ruling is there:)

    [ Parent ]
    My Take Too (1.00 / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 06:07:39 PM EST
    Seems like the reporter was at the top in a pile up of rats.

    [ Parent ]
    I think his bounty hunting.... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:34:34 PM EST
    career is safe, television maybe not.

    I'm just saying what kind of lowlife tapes conversations and sells them to the Enquirer...no point/just observation.

    I guess the world has always been one big sewing circle, it just seems particularly crazy these days.

    [ Parent ]

    apparently a very angry son (none / 0) (#68)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:13:49 AM EST
      I can certainly understand his anger and the desire to punish his father for his reprehensible conduct. Being treated like that by one's own father would make many vindictive. It's common for people to get angriest at those closest to them. Selling the recording is  harder to understand.

    [ Parent ]
    kdog, btw, (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:25:43 PM EST
    it seems the Dog's problem with the girl (among other things) was that he believes her to be, or was attempting to be, a R-A-T.

    [ Parent ]
    I probably should shut up... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:41:58 PM EST
    beyond saying recording people behind their back and selling it are pretty low.

    Because I'm not gonna listen to it.

    [ Parent ]

    Phelps case (none / 0) (#4)
    by sdf on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:46:25 AM EST
    I know it's not your particular area of greatest interest, but what is your take on the jury giving $10.9 million to the soldier's family who sued Phelps over the funeral protests?  Is it going to stand?

    I sure hope it doesn't stand..... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 11:54:14 AM EST
    otherwise free speech don't mean what I think it means.

    [ Parent ]
    If It Does (1.00 / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    Then Falwell and Robertson should be next:

    This is the time to remind everyone that after September 11, the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, who inflicted the inaccurately labeled and proto-fascist 'moral majority' on the rest of us, said that God had 'allowed' 9/11 because the US tolerated gays and feminists. And Pat Robertson, the host of the 700 Club on which the remarks were made, agreed entirely and even issued a subsequent statement to the same effect.

    Juan Cole

    [ Parent ]

    Could a punch in the face (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:11:08 PM EST
    to the a-hole who harrasses a grieving family be interpreted as another form of speech?

    [ Parent ]
    In my book it is:).... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:36:10 PM EST
    Funny you should mention that jondee...I was thinking of how I would deal with a bunch of animals like Phelps and his crew crashing a funeral of a loved one...I'd clean his freakin' clock and let him sue me.

    Thats the best solution, imo...better than potentially weakening the first amendment by lawsuit.

    Besides...I've met a few folks begging for a clock-cleaning in my day, Phelps takes the cake.

    [ Parent ]

    No, but (none / 0) (#47)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:38:31 PM EST
      I'm damn sure no jury would convict in a criminal case or award damages in a civil case-- and I'm sure plenty of lawyers would offer pro bono representation if necessary.

    [ Parent ]
    Free speech (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:20:45 PM EST
    without an iota of civility is about as meaningful as cavemen smearing sh*t on a cave wall IMO.

    And yes, I know Im not always civil.

    [ Parent ]

    Luckily.... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:40:35 PM EST
    its the right to free speech, and not the right to free meaningful speech.

    I agree with your sentiments, but not even I would want to be the decider of what speech is meaningful and what isn't.  That's best decided by the listener.

    [ Parent ]

    The judge allowed the (none / 0) (#42)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:03:26 PM EST
     case to go to the jury so he evidently believed the plaintiff presented a prima facie case of actionable conduct causing damages.

      The compensatory damages are presumably for intentional infliction of emotional distress and while very high, an argument could be made that they are not irrationally related to the anguish caused by having people do such abhorrent things at a funeral. The punitve damages while very high in relation to the net worth of the defendants are not that high in relation to compensatory damages awarded.

      My conscience isn't shocked by the award and I don't know that many judges would find them irrationally disproportioate, so the question may be whether on appeal it is determined the conduct was protected speech. If not the award might stand.

      The right to free speech is not absolute and laws against  breach of peace, invasion of privacy, infliction of emotional distress, etc. can allow for damages for speech related conduct in appropriate cases.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Heckuva job... (none / 0) (#5)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:49:32 AM EST
    Bigfoot.

    Hughes to go back to Texas.

    Hughes has spent the past two years trying to defend Bush policy in the Middle East. Pffft.

    When did Jesus become a Republican? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:56:39 AM EST
    Local San Diego singer/songwriter Cindy Lee Berryhill answers the question with a tune.

    Dadler, are you in the WGA? (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 12:23:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, I'm still a member (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 12:29:42 PM EST
    Haven't been able to sell sh*t the last few years, but I still pay my dues.  Had a good script going out with a good producer.  But now...sigh...it looks like a long wait.  So it goes.  Oh well, I've got a lovely wife and beautiful son, life could be much worse.  

    [ Parent ]
    Let's hope this contract gets settled fairly (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 12:53:47 PM EST
    and soon.

    [ Parent ]
    I hope so (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:04:13 PM EST
    But I have a bad feeling it's going to last awhile.  

    [ Parent ]
    Great. (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:21:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    As long as the producers (none / 0) (#29)
    by scribe on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 01:25:39 PM EST
    can throw "unscripted reality/variety" shows (Survivor, Dancing with Stars, American Idiot) up on the air and get ratings, they can keep going.  

    As I see it, it's the feature film biz that will take the real hit and, from the studios' perspective they probably could care less. The vertical integration of TV and movies under one roof allows them to take a hit in the theaters and stay afloat on the TV revenues.  Some of the mouth breathers out there will watch a test pattern, and they count as much as anyone else.  (Maybe more, because they're more susceptible to advertising....)

    Then again, with the Thought Crimes legislation going on, maybe being a writer isn't as good a gig as it once was....

    [ Parent ]

    Producers (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:02:54 PM EST
    Ultimately it'll be settled, mostly because film producers have egos and need to be in on the blockbusters and the award winners.  And you need new material to do that.  As for TV, so many of the producers ARE writers on shows (ever notice how long the opening producer credits stretch into act one of any show?), and almost all think of themselves as writers first (and want that respect), so in the long run, unless they DON'T want to be writers anymore and NOT have that respect, they'll settle.  Everyone will.  But the big money will hold out as long as possible, I think, exactly for the reality show reason you cite.  It allows them to hold out longer.  But when reality is ALL there is, the audience will get sick of it, such are the cycles of the entertainment industry.  Remember when the sitcom was king during the heady days of NBC Thursday nights?

    [ Parent ]
    Dadler (1.00 / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 11:09:28 PM EST
    Thought you might enjoy this, written by William Katz, a well known writer..

    Oh, by the way, I said that the short scene I wrote at the start of this piece never happened. Well, let me come clean. It kind of did -- but not to Alfred Hitchcock. It involved Fred Zinnemann, one of our greatest directors -- "High Noon," "From Here to Eternity," "A Man for All Seasons," "The Day of the Jackal." Not long before his death he met with a young studio guy who did in fact ask him what he'd done. Zinnemann, the story goes, stared down the kid and finally replied, "You first."

    There is no record of the answer.

    It had to be brief.

    Katz wrote several pieces about entertainment. They were in Power Line...

    If you want, and can stand the strain, I'll try and link'em.

    [ Parent ]

    Link 'em up (none / 0) (#119)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 01:54:25 PM EST
    BTW, the poker bug has bitten me hard.

    [ Parent ]
    Good luck (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 06:16:43 PM EST
    I haven't been to LA in a while.... Tunica is fairly close...and the action is good at SJC.. But I've been wanting some 40-80 action at the Commerce...

    [ Parent ]
    But you are right (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:08:50 PM EST
    The film studio game is completely different now.  But...the audience still wants new material, they always do, and there's something about scripted drama and comedy that for thousands of years have been indispensible for societies.  I'm still optimistic enough that I don't see that changing.  But I just have this nagging feeling this one is going to last a long while.  Don't know why, I just do.  I really hope I'm wrong.  

    [ Parent ]
    All true. (none / 0) (#39)
    by scribe on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:35:52 PM EST
    Speaking from the perspective of having grown up in a union household in union towns where strikes were, if not common, at least understood and the learned wisdom of how to deal with them passed down orally, the point of how to deal with being on strike is to use the time as productively as possible.  For union households when I was growing up, that meant dad getting a moonlighting job that brought some dough onto the table, and mom getting (or keeping and trying for more hours) that second job outside the house.  Dads often wound up in the man-eating cardboard plant, where jobs were usually available because no one really wanted to work there because, well, it was nasty and dangerous.  It also meant budgeting the household with an eye on the contract expiration date, and having a chest freezer in the basement filled with staples before the strike set in.  "Once the trouble starts" is no time to start preparing.

    Of course, when the union goes on strike and the company says "fine" and two days later the trucks pull up at the plant to ship the machinery to another plant in a "right-to-work" state (which happened to my dad), then it's time to call on the network of contacts and relatives built during the salad days.

    For writers, I suppose it's a bit different if only (as I understand the business, which is "vaguely at best") because there isn't necessarily a paycheck every two weeks.  That means the writer likely has built up (or tried to) a cushion until the next piece sells.  In that situation, I guess the best thing to do is keep writing and putting pieces in the can and up on the shelf.  They'll keep.

    And don't cross picket lines.

    [ Parent ]

    It's a white collar union, after all (none / 0) (#48)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:41:34 PM EST
    But at least one that is defending and trying to strenghten benefits for the original creators of the stories that end up on the screen.  Writers are the only ones in the process who start with the literal blank page.  Then again, Hollywood is too close to home for me.  Grew up there, dad was an actor on the fringes, I spent many of the weekends that I saw him (once month on average) watching rehearsals at some dingy westside theatre (or eastside for the really dingy), and pops is a big actors union guy and union man in general.  Born two years before the Depression when many a toddler his age, including his brother, died as children.  Grew up in the tenements, more poor than one can imagine, sharing a "bathroom" with the dozens of other people on your floor, not knowing if dinner would be on the table, sleeping on the table until he was ten.  He swears he didn't see a tree until he was twelve and left his neighborhood to attend poor kids charity camp.  But I digress.  Anyway, yes, the WGA is a different union that the Teamsters, and, in fact, the Teamsters are being lukewarm about supporting the writers in this strike, as are the other unions.  

    All the mice are scurrying for their scraps.  Hopefully, like you said, they've stocked away enough for the famine.

    [ Parent ]

    As for me (none / 0) (#49)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:45:58 PM EST
    Marrying a woman who is Exec VP of a bank and more than capable of bringing home the bacon, frying it up in the pan, and never never letting me forget I'm a man...that certainly helps during the lean times.

    Ahem.

    [ Parent ]

    And amen. (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:46:25 PM EST
    For all good women.

    [ Parent ]
    Although the banking industry. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 04:48:55 PM EST
    Not so much.  My wife would love to get back onto the credit union side, but even they have their drawbacks, as she found out at her last CU job -- corrupt CEO with the "my personal kingdom" attitude.

    [ Parent ]
    A union's a union, and I wish (none / 0) (#55)
    by scribe on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:38:32 PM EST
    I hadn't written so much - beware the ziggaurat.

    [ Parent ]
    Good point. (none / 0) (#38)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 03:13:45 PM EST
    I wonder how much pressure the big theater chain owners, like Anschutz, can put on the studios...

    [ Parent ]
    I have a dumb question (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:28:37 AM EST
    Are this season's shows finished or does the writers strike mean mid-season the scripts for my favorite shows are going to go downhill?

    [ Parent ]
    J (none / 0) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:20:59 PM EST
    If the guild strikes, there will be no writing,  no scripts, and therefor no production of TV shows. So, at some point, the networks will only have re-runs to put on the air.

    If there is a strike and it goes only a few weeks or so, production will start right back up again after the strike ends, so only some relatively minor hiccups in TV production.

    I do think many shows have tried to "stockpile" scripts such that they can keep shooting through the strike and not shut down production.

    However, for a number of reasons, many shows do not have many, or any, maybe, stockpiled scripts.

    Also, script pages are routinely re-written the night before, or even the day of, shooting those pages, so shows with stockpiled scripts often will not want to go into production w/o the ability to tweak them at the last minute.

    And, if the teamsters truly do support such a strike, a network could have an entire season of scripts stockpiled but it would be to no avail - there will be no production to speak of.

    [ Parent ]

    A union's a union, and this was my longer (none / 0) (#57)
    by scribe on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 05:42:30 PM EST
    post, which the zig made me move over here:

    I wish the unions which seem to tend to look down their noses at unionized white-collar jobs as, I guess, being something less-than-a-real-union, would get their act together.

    The purposes of a union are to give the workers the ability to bargain on an equal ground against the employer, to ensure fair wages for the work, and to provide mutual support (and that, currently, includes benefits such as health insurance, etc.) for the members.

    Via my listening to German radio streaming through the computer, I've been watching the last couple weeks (stretching into months, now) as the German union of railway engineers (the Lokfuhrers, short for locomotive drivers) have been tying that country into knots.  Contract's up, and they've been on strike.  Their demands include a 10% wage increase and better benefits and working conditions.  They've used spot strikes, a day here and a day there, thus far targeted at commuter rail.  Because they don't have a Taft-Hartley Act (partly a legacy of our Occupation having enshrined the right of collective bargaining), the government can't order them back to work and the courts have been backing their right to strike (subject to a cooling off period in the summer, which passed with no productive negotiation).  Thus far, only two employees have been fired as far as I can tell, and that was because they parked (and left) their trains on main lines at the exact moment the strike was supposed to start, rather than going to the next station and then parking the train.  Bad behavior on any railroad.

    Next, they intend to target the freight rail system.  

    I think they'll win in the end.


    [ Parent ]

    Food for thought (none / 0) (#9)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 11:25:05 AM EST
      Even if we assume the numbers give only an approximation, this suggests some folks here might want to think about their antipathy  toward the religious because seeking to exclude even a fraction of those numbers would seem to be a profoundly stupid position.

    Link

    Eugene Debs (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 12:03:12 PM EST
    , no intellectual light weight, used to say that he drew a tremendous amount of strength and inspiration from the Sermon on the Mount, (seemingly, the r.r's least favorite section in the Bible), and it's pretty much historically incontrovertable that spirituality was a very sustaining force to blacks struggling for their freedom and civil rights, yet somehow we've allowed the populist poetry of American religion to be hi-jacked by the spiritual descendents of the Bosses and slave traders and their passive enablers, to a large extent, (I think), because we've allowed European DOCTRINAIRE leftism -- an outgrowth of different histories, peoples, and struggles -- to be too much of a prevailing influence in this country without enough of an attempt made to integrate it with our own unique history and folk traditions.

    And the upshot is, that the right has hi-jacked populism with a shoddy, cult-like, apocalyptic, product --- that is still, to too many people, a "something" superior to the left's nothing.

    Thoughts?

    [ Parent ]

    The political (none / 0) (#12)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 12:18:34 PM EST
    category of "the religious" is suspect altegether. There is a huge variety of religious expression in this country. Sure, among socially illiberal fundamentalists the word Democrat is anathema, but not among the mainline Protestant churches. Catholics and Jews. Frankly, the relgious calling of someone like Jimmy Carter, who has spent his post-presidential life on Habitat for Humanity, conflict resolution, and other worthy tasks, and that of, say, Pat Robertson, or the nutjobs at Bob Jones Univ. aren't comparable. Give me Bishop Sprong and William Sloane Coffin or Chris Hedges (Yale Divinity) anyday.

    Even among the most socially illiberal church goers (from the article line above):
    But Americans - even those who care the most about their religion - still have secular concerns. Although 60 percent of white evangelicals say they could not vote for someone who disagrees with their positions on social issues like same-sex marriage and abortion, the top two issues they want to hear the candidates talk about this year are health care and the war in Iraq, the same issues that matter most to people who are less religious.

    [ Parent ]

    Think about this (1.00 / 2) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 01, 2007 at 10:58:45 PM EST
    Sure, among socially illiberal fundamentalists the word Democrat is anathema,

    At one time that was not true.

    What did the Demos do to run off these voters??

    [ Parent ]

    Racist (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:42:26 AM EST
    Southern Democrats left the party after LBJ got serious about Civil Rights. It's a long and complex story, really. MLK Jr.'s assassination, Bobby Kennedy's assassination, Nixonian politics, Roe v. Wade, and then the rise of the Religious Right all contribute to it.
    I don't think the Dems ran anyone off as much as abortion rights, gay rights, affirmative action, the environment became increasingly polarizing issues that were effectively mobilized as wedge issues in Republican political campaigns. People like Barbara Jordan used to win in Texas before the culture wars made politics as completely uncivil as it is today.
    Now the Republican party's coalition between market fundamentalists and the religious right is perhaps dissolving because they do in fact worship different gods.
    Will the r.r. form its own party? They've got money and passion, who knows?

    [ Parent ]
    That was 40 plus years ago. (1.00 / 2) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:02:26 AM EST
    That's two generations.

    And if you'll do some research you will find many black mayors in towns large and small plus sheriffs, assemblymen, police, etc.

    To a certain extent, racism exists everywhere, but the old south doesn't exist anymore. There is something here besides the civil rights struggles.

    As for your "wedge" issues, I find that humorous.
    These are positions that the  people in question oppose. What shouldn't the Repubs highlight their opposition and the Demo support??

    If politics have turned nasty look at the MoveOn ad and almost any Left wing blog. You can't call people stupid, racists, bigots, dumb, etc., and expect them to listen to your point of view.

    And yes, the Repubs do it too, I refer you back to the wedge issues.... But the Repubs aren't trying to convert the voters. The Demos are. So what do the Demos do??

    For example:

    No. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:41:04 AM EST
    There is no equivalence, ppj.

    White supremacist nutbars have barely grown feet from their flippers and crawled out of the primordial slime pits. They are eons behind anyone they try to demonize.

    There will probably never be equivalence.

    After reading that I was reminded of what Forest Gump said.

    Stupid is as stupid does.


    [ Parent ]
    I find your (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:31:31 PM EST
    question more interesting that your own answer to it.

    You misunderstand the point about B. Jordan. Tom DeLay is the poster child for the sort of politics that made people like her impossible at the national level, and here I refer, as you seem to think, to the color of her skin, but the content of her character. Obvious, no?

     Given that the Repbulicans have given us Watergate, Willie Horton, and swiftboating, I find your complaint about MoveOn disingenuous. The Republicans have embraced politics of division, fear, hate, and rampant militarism, and have sold it in the most dishonest ways. Reagan couldn't bring himself to utter the word AIDS when the epidemic started to rage, but was happy to continue with his idiotic pronouncements such as "trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." It's not simply a matter of giving the people what they want, but of manufacturing phony crises through polarizing rhetoric. Surely you can see that?

    As far as who is dumb, etc., I refer you to the Creation Museum and the whole debate over evolution. There's the rr in action.

    Edger's right, white suprematists are unevolved, to say the least. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything you asked about though. Look at the Southern Poverty Law Center's work on white suprematists and hate on their site.

    You're right though, the religious right can embrace some pretty stupid positions and advocate for them in really stupid ways. When will conservatives such as yourself recognize that and change the errors of their ways?


    [ Parent ]

    So Tom Delay ran off Barbara (1.00 / 2) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 03:52:13 PM EST
    Jordon?? Wow. I never knew he was that powerful....Of course Rove could conjure up hurricanes...

    Watergate is also two generations back, and the only people who really care about that are the same ones who keep talking about racism in the south. Note my comment:

    And if you'll do some research you will find many black mayors in towns large and small plus sheriffs, assemblymen, police, etc.

    To a certain extent, racism exists everywhere, but the old south doesn't exist anymore.

    I think you are deliberately, although it is possible that you just can't comprehend that Edger's attack was meant to insult all white southerners, although he is free to deny it.

    Jondee though is more specific:

    Zero weight" (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:09:56 PM EST
    means you're either completely out to lunch, or so occupied recieving "links" that you havnt heard or noticed that the bulwark of pressure and support from organized "Christians" for regime-change and The Greater Israel comes from groups that embrace the very dangerous, crack-brained, theological vision I described.

    [ Parent | Reply to This |  1  2  3  4  5  ]
    Yeah, in the long view, (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:15:08 PM EST
    I believe they're equal threats.

    I could provide many other examples, but I know you get my point.

    But please, pay no attention and lose another national election. It's what the Demos have done best for 12 of the past 30 years.

    In the meantime NHC withers away....

    [ Parent ]

    zzzzzzz (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by jondee on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:41:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I will say that some of us here (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jondee on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:50:39 PM EST
    dont automatically equate "all white southerners" with white supremacists even if Mr. Low Blood Sugar does.

    Why he would remains to be explained.

    [ Parent ]

    Guilty Conscious? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 04:53:59 PM EST
    Or just rhetorical flair, aka trolling?

    [ Parent ]
    With friends like that.. (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by jondee on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:13:41 PM EST
    It takes a real maestro to level that type of slander at the people you're allegedly defending.

    [ Parent ]
    I try (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 08:40:21 PM EST
    to give him the benefit of the doubt, but just read his rampantly idiotic posts. Really, he contorts words, abandons logic, doesn't know history from a hole in the ground, is unfailingly rude, jeez, what a piece of work. I think it's just time to ignore him. I wish I had a button to press to make his brain dead comments invisible.

    [ Parent ]
    your rudeness (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 08:34:59 PM EST
    knows no bounds at all, while the low intellectual level of your posts speaks for itself.
    If all you've got is this idiotic snark save yourself the trouble.

    [ Parent ]
    Rude??? (1.00 / 2) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:15:56 PM EST
    Well, when you lose the argument that is always your favorite fall back position.

    [ Parent ]
    ROFLMAO (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:40:50 PM EST
    where's that dang ignore button?

    [ Parent ]
    oops (none / 0) (#85)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:46:28 PM EST
    should read, "I refer NOT, as you seem to think..."


    [ Parent ]
    Character assassination (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by jondee on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 03:48:36 PM EST
    directed at white supremacists.

    Who low will that Edger allow himself to sink?
    Those people are the salt of the earth; the backbone  of America.

    [ Parent ]

    Jondee makes things up... (1.00 / 2) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:24:12 PM EST
    nothing new, but it is better form to wait until the subject of the new Big Tale is on another thread.

    Character assassination
    directed at white supremacists. Who low will that Edger allow himself to sink?
    Those people are the salt of the earth; the backbone  of America.

    I wrote:

    I think you are deliberately, although it is possible that you just can't comprehend that Edger's attack was meant to insult all white southerners, although he is free to deny it.

    But knowing your history of seeing everything through the race card filter, I am not surprised to see you deliberately misstate what I wrote.

    Unless of course you agree that all white southerners are "white supermacists."

    I am sure Jimmy Carter will be surprised to learn that.

    And thanks for proving my point. If not on Edger, at least on you.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 05:47:38 AM EST
    Sigh... another thread, another day, in the continuing Sad Story of ppj - Episode 2: The Revenge of Darwin.

    You're still dreaming of finding someone here stupid enough to think you make any sense, are you?

    You don't think the trouble you're having has something to do with the drastic shortage of stupid people here?

    Do you?

    Looks like you'll need to follow the teachings of George and Karl a little more closely. You can't just pay lip service to those guys, you know? You gotta get down an' dirty with them ppj! What are you holding back for? Create your own reality!

    [ Parent ]

    Who are you to say what other (5.00 / 2) (