Swiftboating 12 year old Graeme Frost; Frosts on Countdown Monday

By Last Night in Little Rock, Section Other Politics
Posted on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 11:27:21 AM EST
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[Update (TL): Graeme Frost was not on Countdown tonight. His parents were.]

*********

Graeme Frost two weeks ago gave the Democrat's response to the President's radio address. You will remember that his family is middle class, and he had public health insurance that saved his family from financial ruin after he and his sister were grievously injured in a car wreck, both needing physical therapy. But, the Neo-con attack dogs immediately and shamelessly Swiftboated him.

I cannot say it better than Paul Krugman did in Sliming Graeme Frost in the NY Times. Countdown has video here.

On Monday evening, Master Frost will be on Countdown.

More...

Yesterday, I had a flashback to the film (yes, before video) of the Army-McCarthy hearings with the now legendary Joseph Welch, the Army's private counsel from Boston, taking on the bombastic Sen. Joseph McCarthy. I pondered that analogy over night. I don't have to see the film again, because it is burned into my memory.

We have all seen that piece, as quoted on Wikipedia:

"Until this moment, Senator, I think I never gauged your cruelty or your recklessness[...]" When McCarthy resumed his attack, Welch interrupted him: "Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" He then left the room to loud applause from the spectators, and a recess was called.

The full transcript is on History Matters.

American Neo-cons are so invested in perpetuating frauds on the American people in the name of Republican-politics-as-usual that they cannot admit that one person with a contrary view might have a point. To quote one legendary Neo-con:

As soon as by one's own propaganda even a glimpse of right on the other side is admitted, the cause for doubting one's own right is laid.

(Hint: It is not Ronald Reagan.)

Now, they have stooped so low as to attack a 12 year old boy, too, and that is as utterly and gutterly low as they can get.

For those who would attack a 12 year old boy, "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

Ah, but that's the rub: For a Neo-con to have a "sense of decency" is an absolute contradiction.

Watch this 12 year old boy call out the Neo-cons tomorrow night on Countdown.

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Swiftboating 12 year old Graeme Frost; Frosts on Countdown Monday | 85 comments (85 topical)

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Amazing (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by Packratt on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 12:54:15 PM EST

It's amazing that anyone can find it palatable to utilize the entirety of one's political apparatus to attack a child instead of using it to rebut the actual arguments made.

How can anyone be proud to be associated by affiliation to that?

Packratt - Good question. (1.00 / 3) (#18)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:19:21 PM EST

Have you thought about asking:

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I suppose he is supposed to be some sort of prodigy. I'm not here to brag but my childhood IQ scores were around 170 - and have my degrees in computer science and biostatistics - and I was content to play with star wars action figures at his age. I find it very hard to believe that he really understands what he is saying and this is how he strongly feels.
Geez Noah, make sure your parents prepare you for junior high where you'll have to deal with all those "negro kids on welfare". lets see how many days go by until the rest of the school gets sick of your shit and you wind up in the nurse's office with a black eye.

DemocraticUnderground

After that comment indicating a desire for a physical attack on a child, I can understand why it is "underground."

[ Parent ]

Well... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
by Packratt on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 08:06:55 PM EST

First of all, I will say that my 12 year old son, while not a prodigy but still smart, asks me questions all the time about politics and things that any normal person aught to be curious about. He is also opinionated and would likely not mind speaking his mind to whomever asked him something he felt strongly about and was knowledgeable about. Same as I was when I was his age, so I find nothing abnormal about what Noah did.

However, I have been in the news and on camera, and felt a bit nervous about letting my family be filmed as a part of that... yet that is part of being a parent, being protective of your children when you can be... yet again, so is trying to bring attention to issues that affect your family in the hopes that something is done to improve things for your kids.

As for the statement afterwards, indeed it is a rather disturbing expression of the desire to see a child harmed. No call for it whatsoever and, frankly, I'm quite disturbed by the racist overtone of that message as well.

Still cannot fathom how anyone would want to be associated with that kind of message.

[ Parent ]

Doesn't matter (1.00 / 2) (#25)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 08:40:59 PM EST

He is also opinionated and would likely not mind speaking his mind to whomever asked him something he felt strongly about and was knowledgeable about. Same as I was when I was his age, so I find nothing abnormal about what Noah did.

Your argument is that the child is capable of becoming involved in adult activities.

That is true, but it is very undesirable because it exposes the child to some very adult type responses.

I would recommend that you don't expose your son to things that he is not capable of understanding. I remind of you of your comment.

Still cannot fathom how anyone would want to be associated with that kind of message.

[ Parent ]

However... (5.00 / 2) (#26)
by Packratt on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 09:05:11 PM EST

I would suggest that a parent's responsibility is preparing his or her child for adulthood. Part of that process is, unfortunately, to explain to them that sometimes adults do very childish things.

I would hardly call wishing harm upon a kid for political expedience an adult thing to do. Therefore it's important to explain to children, "see this man, never do as he does".

Unfortunately, in everyday life, this is something that I must inform my children of much too often. The case you pointed out is no exception and is still inexcusable.

[ Parent ]

Wrong (1.00 / 2) (#28)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 09:51:59 PM EST

The issue isn't preparing your children for adulthood by showing/telling them bad behavior.

The issue is using them as political pawns that expose them to bad situations.

The former is good.

The latter is unacceptable.

[ Parent ]

Again... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
by Packratt on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:57:34 PM EST

Perhaps you missed my point above that young children, despite some opinions to the contrary, can be quite opinionated and civic minded. They are, as human beings, quite entitled to have their own opinions and to share them as they wish, otherwise we parents and other adults would never know what they are thinking or when a problem might be occurring that we should be aware.

All we can do as parents is let children express themselves and then explain to them why it is that some adults do something childish in response, such as wishing harm upon a child for expressing his or her own opinion or experiences and then protect them from such adults.

The world is outside the window, we cannot pretend that it is not there and does not affect our children. All we can do is be there for them to explain it to them as they experience it.

Unless there is an entirely different point you wish to interject, I'm afraid we'll have to otherwise agree to disagree.

[ Parent ]

: No, I didn't miss your point (1.00 / 2) (#36)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:26:18 AM EST

that children can be opinionated, and with directions from their parents and teachers, very politically minded.
My point is that I think it very bad for anyone to use them as political pawns. First of all, they lack the education and experience to have an informed opinion. Thus, as I noted, they are "pawns."
Educating them about the evils and perils of the world has nothing to do with turning them into activists for their parents and teachers pet causes. Claiming otherwise is an obvious attempt to hide from the facts.
The current "mess" has nothing to do with children's health care. We had a program that covered those who needed it. What this is about is a huge expansion of a means tested program that would expand the program into the middle class, and have the poor in some states, say MS, pay for the health care of middle class children in NJ, NY, etc.
That is unfair, and will be rejected.
Worse, by interjecting such arguments about health care into the national discourse, it poisons the well of good will and common sense that says that the only thing that can be fair, and can work is a National Health Care program that is paid for by everyone.
That eliminates such stupid arguments that NJ is a high cost state, therefore the poor in MS should be paying for it.

[ Parent ]

Plant (none / 0) (#31)
by 1980Ford on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:44:07 AM EST

There are a lot of wingnut plants at DU, "disrupting" and trying to make DU look bad, not that it can't accomplish that on its own sometimes.

[ Parent ]

: The link s are over 2 years old (1.00 / 1) (#40)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:36:02 AM EST

to both the DemocraticUnderground and Dadahead sites.
They have had plenty of time to remove them.
Your excuse doesn't work.

[ Parent ]

on the other hand... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
by Sumner on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 04:33:12 PM EST

For those ever-so predictable perpetual perfunctory apologists here, always for whoever those are in power, Naomi Wolf's recent line, rings particularly poignant:

"The cardinal rule of a closing or closed society is that your alignment with the regime offers no protection; in a true police state no one is safe."

well pancho, (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by cpinva on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 04:37:41 PM EST

I did not see anything that resembled an attack; what are you seeing?

perhaps it's time to take a trip to the optomitrist's office, get that lens prescription updated.

and oculus, why was it wrong, in your opinion, for the parents to allow young graeme to go on tv, and personally respond to all the lies told about him and his family? since most were directed at him, i think it's only fair that he be the one given the opportunity to challenge them, on national tv.

as far as shame is concerned, no, the current crop, much like their predecessor, sen. mccarthy, has none. they'll just claim later, that they said no such thing, and anyone who claims otherwise is a lying, america hating islamoliberalfeminazifascist.

it's how they work, and their audience eats it up.

remember, mccarthy never apologized for ruining anyone's life, because of the lies he told about them.

Although I haven't followed the (none / 0) (#12)
by oculus on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 04:46:48 PM EST

attacks in detail, I gather the questions are whether Dad worked to his full capacity, why parents didn't sell the house or mortgage it to obtain medical care. The parents should answer these quesitons, if they are so disposed. The kid has nothing to do with those issues. I think a lot of parents, not just these parents, are way too quick to fall under the spell of having themselves or their minor off-spring on TV. Elizabeth Smart comes immediately to mind.

[ Parent ]

: Why didn't the sell everything to pay? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
by Nowonmai on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 06:02:13 PM EST

For one thing, it would have been a drop in the bucket. Another thing, where the hell were they supposed to live after selling up everything? Don't say apartment, because according to your logic, they wouldn't have any money. Then, not having anywhere to live, let social services break up the family? Yeah, that's nice. Compassionate Conservatism at its' best.
And why the hell should anyone, any hard working family, in a country as wealthy as the US have to go bankrupt due to catastrophic illness or injury? You have no problem with supporting politicians health care with your tax dollars, but an injured child makes you slam on the brakes? boggle
As for the private schools: the only reason the Frost children attend private school is because they are on scholarships due to the (wait for it) horrendous injuries they received/recovered from, and were eligible for full scholarships. What next? Any prodigy who gets a full scholarship will be held up to ridicule, called a liar, and given death threats?
It's not like the parents sat on fat bank accounts in the Cayman Islands. All they had left was their home. And again, why should any hardworking family in one of the richest countries in the world go bankrupt and homeless due to a catastrophic injury or illness. Especially when the gov't has more than enough money to toss into bad endeavors. It's about time some of it was used for good ones.

[ Parent ]

I did not see anything (1.00 / 1) (#7)
by Pancho on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 03:01:59 PM EST

that resembled an attack; what are you seeing?

Come on people (1.00 / 2) (#23)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:55:57 PM EST

I thought that surely we could agree that using children as political pawns is despicable and just shouldn't be done.

I see that my expectations of you has not been mey.

Not even close.

Good for him! (none / 0) (#1)
by Michael Gass on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 12:25:49 PM EST

I hope he tells the "meanies" what "poopy-heads" they are!

This lays bare for the world to see (none / 0) (#2)
by Edger on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 12:33:17 PM EST

how utterly morally bankrupt and psychotically conscienceless these people have become. How far they have fallen, and the lengths they'll go to and the internal conflicts they'll inflict on themselves to remain in denial.

As I said.... (1.00 / 2) (#5)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:35:04 PM EST

"It appears that we have a guy here who is struggling to start his own business and got dealt a terrible blow. If NHC was in force all of these political points would never come into play.

Instead we have the Demos using a 12 year old child, because "no politician will attack a child." It is an old strategy, and mostly successful. What I would like to do is ask her parents why they would do that. I would have thought that their home has had enough tumult and stress to last a lifetime, yet they decide to invite more. Perhaps unthinking, but the result us the same.

So shame on them. And shame on the Demos for using her. And shame on the bloggers who say nasty things about the family. And shame on the Repubs who don't tell those on the Right to shut up.

But they won't because the Demos won't try and shut down their attack teams. So we are stuck in a nether world of heated uncivil rhetoric and nasty politics that solves nothing.

I find that sad."

And you have forgotten....

I think these quotes make clear that Noah is in desperate need of a good ass-kicking, for his own good as well as that of the country. But apparently, no one has yet bothered to give it to him. This got me to thinking: what has become of our society?!? Noah goes to school, presumably

Dadahead

Both sides do it. I condemn the practice.

Join me if you have any concept of fairness.

[ Parent ]

you have a concept of fairness (5.00 / 4) (#6)
by jondee on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:49:02 PM EST

Now all you need is some decency; a soupcon of honesty; twenty I.Q points and maybe extract your nose (metaphorically speaking) from Karl Rove's hindparts, and you'll have made a start.

Tehe lol

[ Parent ]

heh (1.00 / 2) (#8)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 03:43:31 PM EST

And since you have not joined me, it must be because you do not have a sense of fairness, decency; a soupcon of honesty; twenty I.Q points and maybe extract your nose (metaphorically speaking) from whatever Leftie leader's hindparts you are currently in awe of, and you'll have made a start.

hehe

Speaking of children.

You are the poster child of why neither side can come together to accomplish anything. The far Left and the far Right are on the opposite sides of the same coin.

[ Parent ]

People are not "joining" you (5.00 / 4) (#14)
by aj12754 on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 06:37:23 PM EST

because you are intellectually dishonest. Routinely. Repeatedly. Reprehensibly.

[ Parent ]

Intellectual honesty?? (1.00 / 2) (#17)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:12:36 PM EST

Whatever I am, it has nothing to do with condemning both sides for their use of children political pawns.

That you do not join me speaks to your position. Your beliefs. Not mine.

Yawnnnnnnn.

hehe

[ Parent ]

Political Pawns? (5.00 / 2) (#19)
by squeaky on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:22:33 PM EST

This is about children's health care. Who better is there to represent the case?

Oh right, I forgot this is not about children for you, intellectual dishonesty and all, this is about killing the s-chip program.

[ Parent ]

This is not about health care (1.00 / 2) (#21)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:49:08 PM EST

If it was the Demos would be pushing NHC.

Instead they have used a child to claim that people making less than those making $80K a year should pay the bills of the more affluent.

Politics pure and simple.

[ Parent ]

: Haahhaa (5.00 / 3) (#27)
by squeaky on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 09:17:34 PM EST

YOu are the one using a child as a political pawn. You are against s-chip and dish0nest about the family values spin which you are on the fainting couch about.

[ Parent ]

Dont hold your breath (5.00 / 1) (#56)
by jondee on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:20:44 PM EST

till you turn blue, that's very bad for you.

And stop stomping those feet.

[ Parent ]

Hehe (1.00 / 1) (#57)
by jondee on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:47:05 PM EST

From the guy who hasnt said two words about the children that have died as a result of the fall-out from the Iraq invasion.

Once again, paramountly, irretrievably FOS.

Tehe.

Yawnnnnn.

[ Parent ]

Whenever Republicans chew on their own feet.... (5.00 / 3) (#13)
by 1980Ford on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 05:34:41 PM EST

They mumble between their toes, "Can't we all just get along?" The same mumbles as when they lost Congress. Suddenly bipartisanship was all the rage, unless they wanted something, like now, when they want this to go away, just go away.

Too late.

[ Parent ]

: I know Fords and you aren't a Ford. (1.00 / 2) (#22)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:53:25 PM EST

A good honest solid Ford would never agree that someone should say this about a child.

I think these quotes make clear that Noah is in desperate need of a good ass-kicking, for his own good as well as that of the country. But apparently, no one has yet bothered to give it to him. This got me to thinking: what has become of our society?!? Noah goes to school, presumably

[ Parent ]

Heh. Can't even troll competently anymore. (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by Edger on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 03:47:15 AM EST

Trying to paint the repug attack dogs who went after Graeme Frost as "victims", and the Democrats who condemned them as "attackers" so that you can wail, gnash your teeth,and self righteously whine that "both sides do it - won't you join me in condemning both?" in a hopeless and hilarious attempt at getting the repugs off the hook is the biggest gamble I've ever seen you take here.

Too bad it didn't work, huh? Where'd you get the idea? PowerBlind? You should know better than to take advice or talking points from anyone as morally bankrupt and psychotically conscienceless as yourself, but then, if you were a little brighter you might have figured out on your own that they are better at twisting and shredding reality till it's unrecognizable than you can ever hope to be.

Face it. You're just one of their wind up doll pawns obediently doing the job they wind you up to do. You can't expect them to have any more respect for you than anyone else does.

As I've said before and you've always been to cowardly to answer (want links?).... you don't really believe that anyone, including yourself, is stupid enough to think that you are making any sense here.

Do you?

[ Parent ]

Was there something about this comment (1.00 / 2) (#34)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:31:55 AM EST

that you didn't understand? That led you to write the following?

Trying to paint the repug attack dogs who went after Graeme Frost as "victims", and the Democrats who condemned them as "attackers"

Was my following request unclear??

Both sides do it. I condemn the practice.
Join me if you have any concept of fairness.

You are the troll, edger. You. You constantly make attacks, insult and ignore what has been written. You are the troll, because you have written that you don't want to debate.

First of all, (none / 0) (#67)
by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:18:25 PM EST
Do we offer them respect? Absolutely not. We do our best to marginalize and get rid of them.

Your own words convict you.

[ Parent ]

No one is buying, ppj. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by Edger on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:37:03 AM EST

Even you don't believe your own words make sense, because you know that no one is stupid enough to... even you.

Maybe I'm wrong, though. ;-)

[ Parent ]

The recprd speaks for itself.. (1.00 / 2) (#38)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:33:09 AM EST

And your latest distortion and claims of what I didn't say proves it.

And the fact that you wouldn't join me in condemning everyone who use children as political pawns further demonstrates you don't want improvements in the social system of the country, just for the Demos to have power.

[ Parent ]

Heh. You know me. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
by Edger on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 09:10:34 AM EST

I'll sit here and condemn you all day long if that's really what it's going to take to take you happy.

But, you might have more fun if you just book yourself in for a thorough flogging.

Get it out of your system occasionally, you know? Much healthier for you than attacking 12 year old boys, ppj...

[ Parent ]

edger becomes squeaky (1.00 / 2) (#46)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:22:23 AM EST

Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM
Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! (5.00 / 2) (#47)
by Edger on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:28:08 AM EST

You don't need any help being smeared, ppj. You do it to yourself quite effectively.

[ Parent ]

And PPJ Fantasizes (5.00 / 2) (#48)
by squeaky on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:28:25 AM EST

About becoming Rove. My guess it that it is a blood borne disease.

[ Parent ]

: From injecting koolaid. (5.00 / 2) (#49)
by Edger on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:29:20 AM EST

[ Parent ]

I'm underwhelmed by the parents (none / 0) (#4)
by oculus on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 02:22:29 PM EST

permitting their 12-year old son to go on national TV.

I'm underwhelmed (1.00 / 1) (#15)
by aj12754 on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 06:39:42 PM EST

by your inability to see that these parents actually understand how critical this vote is for thousands of kids...not just their kid. And kudos to their kid for getting it too.

Looks like this entire family has more on the ball than you do.

[ Parent ]

Looks like this entire family has more on the ball (1.00 / 2) (#20)
by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:46:02 PM EST

The standard of the family protecting the young until the young is able to protect themselves is a trait long cherished and expected in western civilization.

I wonder what is next?? Children attacking the ability for people to vote???? Link

Who knows where this could end.

[ Parent ]

Answer (5.00 / 2) (#29)
by Repack Rider on Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:42:59 PM EST

Who knows where this could end.

With health care for kids as a priority instead of breaking stuff and killing people in Iraq?

If you take care of kids, you get another generation of healthy adults. If you spend the money on a war, you give the next generation the gift of more debt and worse health.

Seems like a no brainer. Why are you havng trouble with it?

[ Parent ]

RePack (1.00 / 1) (#33)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:22:53 AM EST

Heh I thought you was going to tell me (again) how it is only the Right that attacks children being used as political pawns.

But I guess being proved totally wrong once was enough.

The problem we have with the current brouhaha is that it is obviously unfair, and is obviously about politics and NOT about health care for children. It won't be passed.

As a result, maybe the program will get extended, maybe it won't.

The logical and caring thing would have been to extend the current program and then announce a plan for National Health Care that would include ALL US citizens and legal residents.

[ Parent ]

Help me here (5.00 / 2) (#45)
by Repack Rider on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 10:05:12 AM EST

What is the downside of healthier kids?

[ Parent ]

Help you? (none / 0) (#70)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 09:02:55 AM EST

Why should I?

You ask a completely off subject question and expect an answer?

Try this. The topic isn't healthy kids, but the use of children as political pawns. By, as I noted, both parties.

You, edger, squeaky and Jondee have tried to act as if it is only Repubs/Righties who attack children whose parents are allowing them to be used as pawns. However, as you know, I have provided examples of children being used by the Repubs being attacked by the Demos/Lefties, these attacks contained threats of physical violence and references to physical violence being done to them by others.

I have asked all to join me in condemning Repubs, Demos and the parents, of people who allow their children to be used as political pawns.

No one has joined me.

Yet you ask what is the downside of healthier children?

Do you really care??

The child in question is currently covered under the existing program. What the Demos want to do is expand the program well into the middle class range, and by doing so, encourage companies, and individuals who currently have coverage, to drop the coverage and throw the children into a program that is paid for by taxpayers...

Many of these tax payers will be making less than the parents of the children newly covered.

In addition by allowing income variances between the states, we find that a child can be covered in one state with say, parental income of $80,000 while a parent making $30,000 in another state is not covered, and struggles to buy their own insurance

That is grossly unfair.

There is a way to be fair, and provide coverage.

That is National Health Care, paid for by all and enjoyed by all.

That the Demos have not introduced a bill for this shows that they are for politics. Not health care.

[ Parent ]

Jim the child advocate (none / 0) (#72)
by jondee on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 12:28:52 PM EST

Why, just the other day he w2as calling for us all to join him in calling for stiff penalties to all investors who profit from child labor; and who can forget his ongoing campaign to allocate some of the 30 billion a month spent in Iraq for the benefit of poor kids in the U.S?

For shame on those who say he's for politics. Not children.

[ Parent ]

It's called extreme sarcasm (5.00 / 1) (#81)
by jondee on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 11:10:25 AM EST

Jim.

As in, I dont believe you give a significant hoot about any child being "exploited" as long as it furthers your cause.

If you did, I think in 5 years we would've heard about it -- before this add appeared, which just happens to an attack on the Repubs policies.

[ Parent ]

Suddenly all the Thugs (5.00 / 1) (#83)
by jondee on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 01:00:49 PM EST

are saying "What about the childern?!"

You dont know whether to laugh or cry.

[ Parent ]

Do you have any proof (1.00 / 1) (#88)
by jimakaPPJ on Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 09:22:38 PM EST

to go with your claims?

No.

Thought so.

tehe

[ Parent ]

Yes, I know I like to make claims (none / 0) (#89)
by jondee on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 04:57:11 PM EST

I define myself etc etc

I call on you to join me in condemning me.

[ Parent ]

: "For NHC" (none / 0) (#90)
by jondee on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 05:51:40 PM EST

But, defends to the death and glorifies in every utterence of the most militant opponents of NHC as if it were The Holy Office.
Yeah, you're for NHC. And Im the Lindbergh baby.
With friends like you, NHC dosnt need enemies.

[ Parent ]

I was?? I did?? (1.00 / 1) (#75)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 07:03:31 PM EST

Gosh. Gee....

And since your comment is as accurate as Algore's bad scifi flick... surely a Noel Peace prize awaits me.

[ Parent ]

I'm with you oculus..... (none / 0) (#39)
by kdog on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:33:45 AM EST

If I had young kids, I'd keep them at least 500 ft. from political pundits.

[ Parent ]

kdog (1.00 / 1) (#41)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:41:09 AM EST

Then you would also have to keep them away from their teachers and the public school system.

[ Parent ]

Public school teachers... (5.00 / 2) (#50)
by Dadler on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:53:11 AM EST

...suffer UNDER the politicians and education beauracrats. They are constantly having to stop teaching so they can fulfill every poltically expediant and completely ignorant government mandate that comes down from on high. They deal with a government that sees children as nothing more than widgets, and schools as factories.

I have at least seven friends in the public school system, my mother being superintendent of a district (and I have to admit she's a completely anomalous administrator), my father having taught for decades. Hell, one of my good friends, a high school teacher, was really in financial straights, and the way he solved this problem was by leaving the classroom for a few years to run his school's entire standardized testing program. He hated it, but he needed the money. And it says somethingprofoundly depressing that running the standardized testing program from an office pays more than actually being in the classroom teaching.

The problem with public education is about government and beauracracy invading the classroom and mandating things that don't work (amateurs telling professionals how to do their jobs tends to result in, well, a bad result).

As for using children, I didn't hear you complaining when Bush trotted out all those frozen embryo kids.

[ Parent ]

Nary A Peep (5.00 / 2) (#51)
by squeaky on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 12:29:01 PM EST

Nor did we hear a peep from him about expoliting kids during the Supreme Court confirmation hearings of Judge John G. Roberts Jr.

IOKIYAR

[ Parent ]

You guys tickle me (1.00 / 2) (#53)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:12:57 PM EST

First you will not join me in condemning the use of children as political pawns.

Secondly you try and act like I am attacking the kid when in this very thread I wrote:

Tell me squeaky, what's a word that begins with an "l" that describes someone who claims something they know is not true??

And then you guys bring up embryonic stem cell research... Ho ho, it doesn't get any better than this:

Will you joing me. (1.00 / 1) (#26)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:00:33 PM EST
You don't need a degree to understand that the experts say that embryonic research has potential.
But there are no actually results.
Adult stem cell research has had results.
As I have noted, embryonic research works for me.
But claiming that voting for a particular candidate, Demo or RINO Repub is shameful.
Will you join me in donating $200. to a Hollywood celeb founded foundation??

Laughing at you link.

And then squeaky brings up a SC confirmation in with Roberts, I guess, has done some vile thing..

Squeaky. The issue is the use of kids as political pawns, and how they are attacked by both sides.

I have done condemned this.

Either join me or admit you don't mind seeing kids used for political purposes.

[ Parent ]

Kids living in poverty (5.00 / 1) (#63)
by jondee on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 06:13:45 PM EST

and suffering because of inadequate social programs:not worth mentioning or thinking about. Kids dying as a result of the Iraq fall-out: ditto. But God help those Democrats who put a 12 yr old in a commercial that makes the Thugs look bad.

lol

[ Parent ]

The three stooges arrive together... (1.00 / 1) (#64)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:08:10 PM EST

Which one of you is Curly???

What a set of dullards you are.. three deu

Who wants to be first..

Let's do squeaky who is making things up, again. Oh well, we know how he operates.

As for Roberts family introductions..And Roberts didn't push a child out in front to make a speech.

And no, I am not against the current program...just an inadequate expansion that would be unfair and won't be passed.

I am for a REAL program... National Health Care...
for everyone...

Of course the Demos opposed Medicare Rx insurance...so they really aren't interested in anything but politics...

But you know that...

: hahahhahahha (5.00 / 2) (#69)
by squeaky on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 11:11:23 PM EST

And no, I am not against the current program...just an inadequate expansion that would be unfair and won't be passed.
PPJ smears himself again.

[ Parent ]

Jondee gets halfway there (1.00 / 2) (#66)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:14:54 PM EST

So. Are you condemning the Repubs and the Right without condemning the Left??

I have provided two links of attacks on a child in which physical violence was threatened or suggested.

Do you think members of the Left should be doing that to children??

[ Parent ]

Well, do you??????? (1.00 / 2) (#68)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:32:20 PM EST

Don't be shy.

[ Parent ]

: Obviously not (5.00 / 2) (#73)
by jondee on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 12:35:46 PM EST

Every side has their morons; you're certainly living proof of that.
Btw, Has your campaign against those who fund child labor gone on the back burner for now?
What kind of headway are you guys making in slating some of that 30 billion-a-month for the benefit of kids living in poverty?

[ Parent ]

Same in private school.... (none / 0) (#43)
by kdog on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:59:41 AM EST

the most partisan teachers I came across in my school days were in catholic school.

That's why I teach my nieces and nephew to question everybody except mom and dad....till they're grown, then they can question mom and dad too.

[ Parent ]

the point remains (none / 0) (#37)
by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:28:55 AM EST

That this family was an extremely poor choice to highlight as an example for the need for the program.

Neither parent chooses to work full-time at a job that provides health insurance. They own COMMERCIAL property and choose to retain it as an long-term investment rather than sell it. They own a home which has greatly appreciated in value and have the ability to take out a home equity loan or second mortgage. They no doubt receive benefits from other goverment programs to help provide for the needs of their didsabled child and also evidently benefit from a valuable scholarship provided by a private school.

There must be millions of families whose circumstances are more dire and who work much harder. The point that many of those familes not only do not benefit from S-Chip but are required to pay for it through taxes seems to be a legitimate point to raise.

The ultimate problem (none / 0) (#42)
by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:59:10 AM EST

is that health care and payment for health care are currently provided in the most convoluted fasion imaginable. We have a confounding mix of public (state and federal) programs on top of "quasi-private" third-party payers mixed with regulated cost-shifting all on top of system of thousands upon thosands private enterprises.

No one would "design" a system such as we have which is grossly both inefficient in providing services in many regards and unable to provide services in many instances. That's because the system really was not "designed" in any menaingful sense of the word; it simply grew incrementally with an endless series of ad hoc "grafts" which represented political compromises to satisfy partially unmet needs. Not only is each "piece" of the puzzle more or less irrational when viewed as a discrete unit, the manner in which the interaction or inter-relations between the various pieces of the puzzle work (or fail to work) is fundamentally flawed.

: You think that is bad (1.00 / 1) (#65)
by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:11:54 PM EST

just wait until you try and appeal a Medicare decision..

[ Parent ]

I think Graeme was a brilliant move by the Dems. (none / 0) (#52)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:04:34 PM EST

Not only did he put empathetic and personal face on SCHIP, but the Dems also get to use the Repub's response to rouse their base even more.

Brilliant poltical move..... (none / 0) (#54)
by kdog on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:15:51 PM EST

but an unsavory move none the less.

Then again, politics is an unsavory business.

[ Parent ]

: Yes. (none / 0) (#55)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:17:54 PM EST

[ Parent ]

wow (none / 0) (#60)
by Jen M on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:16:11 PM EST

Who knew a General of the United States military was so much more fragile than a 12 year old boy.

Congress passed a resolution condemning those who said bad things about the poor delicate general.

: Poor iddums (5.00 / 1) (#61)
by Nowonmai on Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:21:34 PM EST

If he is so delicate, I can't imagine how he made it through basic training.
Just ignore the 12 yr old boy who suffered catastrophic illness... or use him as target, but leave the poor wispy general alone!

[ Parent ]

Am I just a sucker (none / 0) (#71)
by Pancho on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 09:54:29 AM EST

for sacrificing and working side jobs and doing everything possible to ensure that my bills, including health insurance, are paid? Should I focus my energy instead on trying to get the government to pay for my medical care and my food?

You might consider that it would cost you less (5.00 / 2) (#76)
by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 09:31:44 PM EST

in the long run if there was a national health insurance than continuing to rely on private insurance companies out to make money instead of providing affordable health care.

trying to get the government to pay for my medical care and my food?

A lot of American food is subsidized by the government, so while not free, it is cheaper than it would be without government intervention, sugar being the major exception.

Of course, if you were broke, without resources, etc., then of course you don't deserve medical care or food from the government, because you should be held responsible for your state and not be allowed to have us taxpayers pay for your lack of foresight.

[ Parent ]

If you are broke and without resources, (none / 0) (#77)
by Pancho on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 11:19:40 PM EST

the government should absolutely step in, but it should not be for everyone who would prefer to spend their money elsewhere, and it certainly should not be a lifelong or multigenerational handout.

The safety net of social services would be a lot stronger if it were truly a safety net rather than a way of life.

[ Parent ]

Obviously (none / 0) (#78)
by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 11:52:48 PM EST

you are ill-informed about how welfare works, and the Clinton reforms passed in the last century.

No free governmental food for the likes of you.

Won't you join with me for the revival of workhouses, so that we don't end up subsidizing people without getting something from them in return?

and it certainly should not be a lifelong or multigenerational handout.

Like governmental subsidies for agricultural products often turn out to be?

[ Parent ]

Yes, (none / 0) (#79)
by Pancho on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 10:15:20 AM EST

welfare reforms reduced direct cash handouts, but there are still families living in subsidized housing and collectiong food stamps for generation after generation. They need to get off their asses and leave the handouts for those who are truly needy.

I have seen with my own eyes people pay with food stamps and drive away in expensive SUVs. I have heard all the excuses for this, and I don't buy any of them.

The agricultural handouts are another story, but the comparison is fair. This is an abuse that comes from both sides of the aisle.

[ Parent ]

If that is true (none / 0) (#80)
by Dark Avenger on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 10:49:04 AM EST

than by standing by and not reporting them(unless they didn't have plates on their vehicles) you contribute to the problem, not the situation.

Thanks for showing us whose side you really are on.

[ Parent ]

I did report them and I was told (none / 0) (#82)
by Pancho on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 12:20:18 PM EST

by someone who sounded annoyed and completely disinterested that they would look into it. Of course, they refused to follow up with me.

[ Parent ]

That's when you take it to the superiors (none / 0) (#84)
by Dark Avenger on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 07:45:19 PM EST

of the civil servant who took your complaint, and writing a letter to your local newspaper as well.

[ Parent ]

But the story is that they (none / 0) (#85)
by Pancho on Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 08:52:09 AM EST

did look into, but they couldn't share the findings with me. I don't believe that for a second, but what can I do?

[ Parent ]

Did you miss my comment about (none / 0) (#86)
by Dark Avenger on Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 09:22:48 AM EST

writing a letter to the local newspaper?

[ Parent ]

: I did not, but I have seen other letters regarding (none / 0) (#87)
by Pancho on Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 01:52:03 PM EST

the same issue.

[ Parent ]

The problem is that politicians (none / 0) (#74)
by jondee on Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 12:44:38 PM EST

on both sides have abdicated the responsibilities
of statesmanship and handed them over to amoral spin meisters and Madison Avenue huckster/"consultants" who write and design sleazy commercials calculated all-too-often to evade the real issues and just jerk peoples emotional chains.

Of course the money the P.R industry makes trickles down to all of us, stimulating the economy and creating jobs. Thank God.(sic)