The Jose Padilla Wiretaps

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Trials
Posted on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 01:48:00 AM EST
Tags: Jose Padilla (all tags)

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The New York Times recounts the conversations recorded on the wiretaps in the Jose Padilla case. Shorter version:

Tens of thousands of conversations were recorded. Some 230 phone calls form the core of the government’s case, including 21 that make reference to Mr. Padilla, prosecutors said. But Mr. Padilla’s voice is heard on only seven calls. And on those seven, which The Times obtained from a participant in the case, Mr. Padilla does not discuss violent plots.

What's the prosecution's strongest evidence?

The most tangible allegation against Mr. Padilla is that in 2000 he filled out, under an alias, an Arab-language application to attend a terrorist training camp. That application is expected to be offered into evidence alongside the wiretapped conversations, but Mr. Padilla’s lawyers say they will contest its admissibility, challenging the government’s assertion that the “mujahideen data form” belonged to their client.

What can we expect from the trial?

Deborah Pearlstein, a lawyer with Human Rights First who has consulted with Mr. Padilla’s defense, said that his will never be an ordinary, pragmatic prosecution. “If Jose Padilla were from Day 1 just charged and tried, then maybe,” she said. “But this is a case that comes after three and a half years of the most gross deprivation of human rights that we’ve seen in this country for a long time.”

Further, Ms. Pearlstein noted, the government has reserved the option, should the prosecution fail, of returning Mr. Padilla to the military brig. This, she said, “casts a shadow” over the current prosecution.

Padilla is clearly, in my opinion, incompetent to proceed to trial. Two experts, hired by the defense but whom previously have testified for the prosecution on such issues, say so. The Court has ordered another psych eval by the Bureau of Prisons. The report will be submitted this week.

The money quote:

Indeed, there are even some within the government who think it might be best if Padilla were declared incompetent and sent to a psychiatric prison facility. As one high-ranking official put it, "the objective of the government always has been to incapacitate this person."

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The Jose Padilla Wiretaps | 44 comments (44 topical)

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This case gets more disgusting al the time... (5.00 / 0) (#1)
by Edger on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 07:40:24 AM EST

...and has long since become an indictment and a trial of the Bush administration with Jose Padilla as the unwilling prosecutor.

Everything about it is upside down and backwards, and the terrorists in the WH are sure to be convicted in the eyes of the public in the end.

It's about time Bush did some plea bargaining. It's obvious he is incompetent, but probably not beyond the point of being competent to stand trial.

His accessories, though, are another question entirely. I'm sure we'll hear from one or more of them in this thread.

mike nifong.................... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by cpinva on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 09:28:09 AM EST

there's a job waiting for you at DOJ! rules? they don't need no stinkin' rules!

fast forward to jan. 2009: hillary clinton sworn in as president. lawyers streaming out of DOJ's HQ, in the Fed. Triangle, like rats leaving a sinking ship. with luck, most will cross the border, resettling in SA countries like argentina and venezuela, much like many of the high ranking nazis did after wwII.

a new group, dedicated to hunting them down, modeled on the famous nazi hunters, will form. slowly, over time, sightings of them will be made, and they'll be brought to justice.

disbarred, their prestigious law degrees run through a paper shredder, they'll be sentenced to max security prisons. placed in solitary, losing track of day & night, allowed to shower weekly, no contact with legal advisors. they will be considered so dangerous to national security, their names can't even be mentioned, because it might endanger the country.

ah, the sweet smell of justice!

where the heck is dante, when you really need him?

South America (none / 0) (#11)
by Al on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:10:36 AM EST

I think they would find things have changed a lot in Argentina and Venezuela since the good old days.


That's why Bush apparently chose Paraguay (none / 0) (#18)
by aw on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 04:27:26 PM EST

Hideout or Water Raid?
Bush's Paraguay Land Grab
The land grab project of U.S. President George W. Bush in Chaco, Paraguay, has generated considerable discomfort both politically and environmentally.
The news circulating the continent about plans to buy 98,840 acres of land in Chaco, Paraguay, near the Triple Frontier (Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay) is the talk of the town in these countries.
...
Luis D'Elia, Argentina´s undersecretary for Land for Social Habitat, says the matter raises regional concern because it threatens local natural resources.
He termed it "surprising" that the Bush family is trying to settle a few short miles from the US Mariscal Estigarribia Military Base.
Argentinean Adolfo Perez Esquivel warned that the real war will be fought not for oil, but for water, and recalled that Acuifero Guaraní is one of the largest underground water reserves in South America, running beneath Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay (larger than Texas and California together).

Apologies for the OT (none / 0) (#19)
by aw on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 04:28:16 PM EST

I couldn't resist.


OT, but... (none / 0) (#20)
by Edger on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 04:38:21 PM EST

...has some interesting connotations/speculations. Hmmm.


: curious numbers (none / 0) (#21)
by Edger on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 04:47:25 PM EST

here

Shooting for the Moon? (none / 0) (#22)
by 1980Ford on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 05:29:26 PM EST

Paraguayans accuse Moon of carving out an empire of smack

Reverend Sun Myung Moon, spiritual leader of the Unification Church, self-proclaimed Messiah, multimillionaire and a generous contributor to the US Republican Party, has been showing a strong interest over the last five years in little-known Paraguay at the centre of the South American continent.

Since 1999, Rev Moon has built his personal empire which begins on the marshy banks of the River Paraguay and stretches beyond the hazy, level horizon through 600,000 hectares of arid land - equivalent to more than two Luxembourgs - punctuated by solitary clusters of withered trees and sad bushes which struggle desperately for air.


: Oh, yes (none / 0) (#24)
by aw on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 06:17:37 PM EST

Moon is good friends with the Bushes, his neighbors in Paraguay.
They know water is going to be a scarce resource. And they and their cronies are trying to take control of it all over the world.

Jose Padilla Wiretaps (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by barbarajmay on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 09:32:13 AM EST

In lawschool, we were due to discuss the Korematsu case about the confinement of Japanese Americans to concentration camps. The professor came into the room, opened the Supreme court decision aproving of the concentration camps, stood silently before us and said, "I am too ashamed of my country to discuss this case. You will need to read it yourselves." I have that exact same feeling now when I read about Padilla. Some day, will our children/grandchildren look back and wonder what went wrong with our moral compass? Again?

barbarajmay (1.00 / 1) (#8)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 10:01:22 AM EST

Putting aside your opposition to his length of confinement, but given that he actually filled out the application to go training camp, what is your opinion of him, and what should be his punishment?

The most tangible allegation against Mr. Padilla is that in 2000 he filled out, under an alias, an Arab-language application to attend a terrorist training camp.

Would you argue that it is his right to be trained to be a terrorist in an organization that has attacked the US and conspired to do so?


strawman, as usual (5.00 / 1) (#9)
by Edger on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 10:32:55 AM EST

This thread is about the prosecutions evidence, or apparent lack thereof, and about the integrity (lack thereof again) of the government and the prosecution and their kangaroo court, especially in the face of the fact that "the government has reserved the option, should the prosecution fail, of returning Mr. Padilla to the military brig." (so much for justice...)

Try to focus. And try to avoid denial. You could be in Padilla's shoes one day.


edgter is soooo obtuse (1.00 / 3) (#25)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:39:44 PM EST

Catch a clue edger, you are embarassing yourself.

My comment was exactly about (part of) the evidence, and what Barb makes of it.


Yes of course, ppj (5.00 / 1) (#34)
by Edger on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 09:28:13 AM EST

Your question was: Would you argue that it is his right to be trained to be a terrorist in an organization that has attacked the US and conspired to do so?

You have reliable information that Padilla was trained by the bush administration?

If so please provide it, or a link to it. I would think the prosecutor in this case would like to see it as well.


A simple question (none / 0) (#39)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 12:40:22 PM EST

I would note that this a charge of the government.

But the question isn't about that.

The question is about your personal opinion.

: no (none / 0) (#40)
by soccerdad on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 12:43:19 PM EST

its about you shifting the goal posts yet again

jimakaPPJ: barbarajmay (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by Skyho on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 12:19:09 PM EST

Jim, your world seem populated by strawmen and empty suits.

Listen up!

It is alleged Padilla applied to an alleged terrorist "training camp". Nobody has proved it, yet he has been incarcerated for how many years, tortured to insanity, his life ruined on the sayso of a moron masquerading as pResident who admits he decides based on the state of his gut?

You have got to be kidding.

In his last moments, Saddam proved he was a man.
And yet, Americans take decisions from a deserter.
Go figure.


skyho (1.00 / 2) (#27)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:42:51 PM EST

but given that he actually filled out the application to go training camp,

You might want to read before you make yourself look dumb.

And may I have some links to prove your claim about Bush?

Your admiration for Saddam speaks for itself.


Jim's truthiness (5.00 / 2) (#30)
by LarryE on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 02:37:18 AM EST

given that he actually filled out the application to go training camp

Here again we have a peek into Jim's mind, a place where all must be the way he wishes it to be, as reality dances just out of his reach and just beyond his ken.

I see that you want to argue this by wanting others to stipulate that the prosecution is right and Padilla is guilty. So much for due process, so much for human rights, and so much for sticking to the topic (government misconduct), preferring to try to hijack the thread and divert it into another episode of "are you now or have you ever been a terrorist-lover, you terrorist-lover?"

Well, tell ya what. I'll answer your question directly - but in return I'm going to ask you a question that I expect you to answer equally directly, without equivocation or delay.

First, your question.

[G]iven that he actually filled out the application ... what is your opinion of him, and what should be his punishment? ...

Would you argue that it is his right to be trained to be a terrorist...?

My opinion of him is irrelevant. Assuming he actually did fill out the application, there should be no punishment because as far as I'm aware that's not a crime. (Note that the government isn't charging him with that.) Likewise, there should be no punishment for the training he supposedly would have received because, again, as far as I'm aware, that is not a crime. However, if he did receive such training and ever attempted to put it to use, I would have a very, very big problem with that.

Now here's my question to you and remember, just as I was expected to accept your premise in your question, I expect you to accept mine:

Given that the government has no evidence that Padilla was involved in any terrorist plot or ever carried out or attempted to carry out any terrorist act against the US, and given that despite that he has been wrongly imprisoned and tortured to the point of being mentally broken, what is your opinion of the US officials involved and what do you think should be their punishment?

I look forward to your direct answer.


Well, Larry (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Edger on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 07:31:38 AM EST

It's been a day and a half. I guess he needs time to choose his words carefully since after all he does come here for honest debate, no?

He might even come out of the closet admitting he's androgynous (works both sides of the aisle with ease ).

;-)


Your answer, LarryE (1.00 / 1) (#41)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 01:03:51 PM EST

Gee. Did I hurt your feelings by ignoring you for a while? Life is cruel, isn't it?

As in edger'se case, my question wasn't about the truthfulness of the government's charge. It was a simple question of your personal beliefs.

You answer (in part):

My opinion of him is irrelevant

True, but if we took every irrelevant opinion/comment/post of the Internet it would disappear.

And again, the government's charges have nothing to do with your personal opinion. And I think it shines through, even though you avoided it.

But I will answer yours the way you answered mine.

You want me to assume that the law has not been broken. My opinion of that is irrelevant.

BTW - You write.

However, if he did receive such training and ever attempted to put it to use, I would have a very, very big problem with that.

So you posit that it is okay for people to go to a terrorist group's training camp, return to the US.
Only after he attempted to put it to use would you have a problem with him.

Does that assume that he will never be successful in his attempts? And how many civil rights are you willing to give up to insure that his attempt fails? None? Okay. What are the odds that he will be successful? I'd say very good.

BTW - Did you learn to drive to NOT drive? Of course not. That's what make's the application for training such a damning piece of evidence.


: the bully (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by soccerdad on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 01:17:52 PM EST

is upset because people dont want to play by his ever changing rules
as always pathetic.

: pathetic (5.00 / 3) (#45)
by syinco on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 02:10:28 PM EST

If you want to shrug off the opinion part of Larry's question as he did with yours, fine. Never mind that while accepting your premise he claims opinion of a person as irrelevant, while you claim opinion of his premise as irrelevant and suggest that it is a parallel response.
But to criticize Larry's direct response to the heart of your question in order to obfuscate your avoidance of his question's counterpart to yours, well, it's just pathetic. You discredit yourself. If you can't fairly accept such quid pro quo, I see little reason why anyone should respond to such questions from you in the future.

PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#32)
by Skyho on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 08:42:26 AM EST

As I said, who cares that the man filled out an application or not? I say that anyone should attend any training camp however they might.

Bush. Acknowledged that he was AWOL during the Vietnam War. (He had no orders to be where he was for at least ninety days).

The present govt. is trying to make the case that Iraq II is a "war", which would make Vietnam a "war". AWOL during time of war is the military definition of desertion. No links needed.

Never said I "admired" Saddam. He did, however, face death with dignity, something your steer-milker may get to demonstrate some day. With Bush, though, screaming like a stuck pig comes to mind, coward that he is.


What part of (none / 0) (#12)
by Al on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:15:03 AM EST

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=allegation don't you understand?


American citizen! American citizen! (none / 0) (#23)
by kdog on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 05:39:01 PM EST

I have no opinion of him because it's all a secret.

First, I'd like the govt to prove its case and his guilt. I don't know the sentencing recommendation for conspiring to join al qaeda, if he were found guilty by a jury of his peers.

On second thought, I'd insist this case be thrown out of court due to the citizen in question being denied his due process in such a dastardly and depraved manner.

Any other questions old buddy?


kdog old poker playing buddy (1.00 / 2) (#28)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:44:14 PM EST

So you think it is okay to train as a terrorist??


: Of course not Buddy.... (5.00 / 2) (#33)
by kdog on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 08:51:10 AM EST

It's also not ok to deny an American citizen his due process rights.

Allegations (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by Dick on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 12:36:50 PM EST

are simply that, they aren't proof. Since the case against Padilla has been falling apart ever since scrutiny of the case was allowed, I'm thinking that the alleged application under an alias is just as much crap as Ashcroft announcing the arrest of a dangerous terrorist mastermind who was operating in the US. Or about as credible as the allegations made against all the others who have been convicted of being terrorists after trial. On, that's right. Nobody's been convicted at trial. Forgot.

: in ppj's world (5.00 / 1) (#16)
by soccerdad on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 01:45:05 PM EST

allegation+muslim = guilty
its all quite simple

Videos of US Military in Iraq Abusing Iraqis (none / 0) (#2)
by MinorRipper on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 07:51:01 AM EST

Great post--not sure if you've seen these videos of our military in Iraq...pretty amazing stuff
http://minor-ripper.blogspot.com/2006/12/winning-hearts-and-minds-part-three.html

I did not know that... (none / 0) (#5)
by desertswine on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 09:49:21 AM EST

You have to fill out an application to go to a terrorist training camp?

desertswine (1.00 / 1) (#7)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 09:51:28 AM EST

Why not?

Wouldn't that be proof of your commitment?


Good to be white, bad to be brown (5.00 / 3) (#15)
by Dadler on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 12:59:35 PM EST

In May, Krar, 63, of Noonday, Texas, was sentenced to more than 11 years in prison after he stockpiled enough sodium cyanide to kill everyone inside a 30,000-square-foot building. Krar, described by federal prosecutors as a white supremacist, also had nine machine guns, 67 sticks of explosives and more than 100,000 rounds of ammunition. Investigators and the federal prosecutor said they didn't know what Krar intended to do with the potentially deadly chemicals. Krar's common-law wife, Judith Bruey, 55, pleaded guilty to conspiracy to possess illegal weapons and was sentenced to nearly five years.

You think they got the treatment Padilla did? You think Padilla would get 11 measly years if he got convicted? And here there was concrete factual proof, including an actual dirty bomb -- the type they could never even come close to pinning on Padilla. Ask yourself why we treat Padilla in this inhumane fashion, while these other, much more proven terrorist threats, are not. Domestic terrorism doesn't sell, it doesn't scare like the brown guys in turbans.


Death sentence (1.00 / 1) (#29)
by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:46:44 PM EST

What he got was a death sentence. What chance do you think a 63 year old man has of surviving 11 years in jail?

BTW - I don't feel sorry for him. You seem to feel sorry for Padilla.

Why is that??


Because (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by LarryE on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 02:44:54 AM EST

I don't feel sorry for him. You seem to feel sorry for Padilla.

Why is that??

Uh, because, unlike Krar, Padilla has already spent years in prisons, military and civilian, without having had a trial?

Because, unlike Krar, that was done on the basis of evidence so thin that tissue paper looks dense by comparison?

Because, unlike Krar, Padilla was tortured to the point of mental breakdown?

Because, unlike Krar, Padilla has not been convicted of anything?

Get a clue, guy.


In ppj's inside out fantasy world (none / 0) (#36)
by Edger on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 10:24:06 AM EST

Whether Padilla is or ever will be convicted of anything is immaterial.

Padilla is guilty, of course. He wouldn't have been arrested in the first place if he wasn't.


LarryE and et al (none / 0) (#43)
by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 01:42:59 PM EST

True, he hasn't been convicted.

But as I have been told several times by resident Leftward people of this blog..That doesn't matter.
He has been convicted in the court of public opinion.

So what matters is a third set, namely those who believe that Bush has acted illegally......The majority opinion in 35 states is It is clear that Bush broke the law

TalkLeft Archive


: has Bush (none / 0) (#44)
by soccerdad on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 01:56:46 PM EST

been locked up for years and denied due process
You are dishonest but we all knew that

padilla hasn't been convicted (none / 0) (#35)
by Sailor on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 10:10:27 AM EST

but given that he actually filled out the application to go training camp

You don't know that, and given the gov't has l;ied about every other aspect of this case it seems that at the very least, we should presume innocence.

Foer god's sake ppj, an American has been held in solitary for years w/o charges or trial.

That should concern every real American.


once agin (none / 0) (#37)
by soccerdad on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 10:50:25 AM EST

loses the argument and turns to the smear of accusing everone of loving terrorists
The usual pathetic tactics of the intellectually bankrupt


The evidence (none / 0) (#17)
by Dick on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 02:01:43 PM EST

seems to be a tad scant. Of all the phone calls, Padilla's voice is only on 7, and he doesn't discuss anything having to do with terrorism. However, during one phone call, he talks about going to Busch Gardens. Is the secret terrorist training camp hidden at Busch Gardens? I always thought Busch beer was an attack on our way of life.

Maybe he (none / 0) (#26)
by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 11:41:18 PM EST

was going to blow up the aviary.

Dadler,

Great link. Go Chargers.