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Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for Case Improprieties

Accused Duke Lacrosse player Reade Seligman's lawyer filed a motion (pdf) today seeking recusal of the DA. It's a great motion, you should read the whole thing. It lays out the undisputed and disputed evidence, has new details, and alleges the D.A. was motivated by the primary election which is being held tomorrow and a desire to claim the national spotlight.

The motion also alleges he improperly injected himself in the lineup, causing the Durham Police Department to violate their own procedures which are embodied in a police department order.

There is two pages devoted to Mr. Nifong's public statements on the case. I agree with the defense that he violated the rules of professional conduct, a topic I discussed fully here with quotes from the rules.

There have been two New Black Panthers on tv the past two nights. One was on The Lineup with Kimberly Guilfoyle and is a lawyer and articulate. Another was on Hannity and Colmes tonight -- he said he is the "national chief of staff" for the party. He was terrible. He didn't answer any questions directly, gave the black power salute a few times, was extremely disingenous about who invited the Party to Durham on behalf of the woman and finally acknowledging that it was "the community" that invited them.

Last night I thought the Party was being unfairly portrayed by the media for showing photos of them demonstrating with weapons, when there is no evidence they are armed in Durham. However, I've changed my mind. Tonight, the national chief of staff gave this answer (this is from my memory, not a transcript) when Sean Hannity asked if they were armed. "That's for me to know and you to find out. They shot Medgar Evers."

Update: Thanks to first time commenter blcc below who notes the News Observer reported today that in one of the defense filings today,

In 1998 the accuser told police that her ex-husband had tried to kill her, according to the court filings.

The accuser's ex-husband has been blabbing to the media. I wonder what he has to say about this.

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    Nifong's reaction:
    "They don't want to go up against me," Nifong said when asked outside court Monday about the defense request for his removal. He has denied any political motivation behind his aggressive investigation.
    ...
    "Their way of trying a case in the media is not to call press conferences, but to simply file motions and court papers that contain outrageous or false statements and assume that people will report them as if they were facts," Nifong said.


    Filing motions is the proper way to get your allegations out. He has the opportunity to file a response setting forth what he believes are lies. He can't take back his 70 media appearances or his prejudicial statements, particularly,
    "I am convinced there was a rape, yes Sir" to Dan Abrams, 3/28/06 and "There's no doubt in my mind that she was raped and assaulted at this location" to Bill O'Reilly, 3/29/06.


    He can't take back his 70 media appearances or his prejudicial statements, particularly, "I am convinced there was a rape, yes Sir" to Dan Abrams, 3/28/06
    By going for an indictment the prosecutor is effectively saying he's convinced a crime occured. Stating the same to the media prior to an indictment may be prejudicial, but it's not unfairly prejudicial. After all, if a prosecutor isn't convinced there was a crime, he shouldn't pursue an indictment in the first place.

    Nifong participated in the photo identification process? And it's normally done by the police? Was the violation that he included no one besides lacrosse players, or that he was part of the process, or both? Is there any evidence that he coached the witness? If Nifong violated the identification process, can the photo IDs be ruled inadmissable? And if they are, what case is there? By the way, does anyone know what Nifong was talking about referring to "outrageous and false statements"? I didn't see much new information except for the references to Nifong participating in the photo identification session. No offense, IMHO, but Nifong's response sounds like a lot of false bravado.

    No offense, IMHO, but Nifong's response sounds like a lot of false bravado.
    I'm not his speech writer, I'm just passing on what I read. Though, I did think it was funny. I thought it might be followed up with: Osborn: "You want a piece of me?" Nifong: "Bring it on!" I think it is interesting that two of the lacrosse team captains' attorneys are publically endorsing Nifongs candidacy. They have stated he is honest and fair and ethical
    Criminal lawyer Kerry Sutton of Durham, N.C., admires local district attorney Mike Nifong. She thinks the Durham county prosecutor is ethical and honest--in short, a solid lawyer. "I have a campaign sign of his in my front yard," she said last week. But Sutton, who is representing one of the 45 Duke lacrosse players who have not been charged in the alleged rape and kidnapping in Durham last month, takes a different line when it comes to Nifong's handling of the controversial case. "I think he's made some decisions I would not have," she said.
    ***
    Even Butch Williams, who represents some of the lacrosse players, supports Nifong's candidacy, and says the DA is "honest and forthright, firm but fair. It is never personal with him."


    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#6)
    by chew2 on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:27:28 PM EST
    TL, My understanding is that in order to get a recusal defendant has to show Nifong has a conflict of interest or that he is otherwise bringing this prosecution in bad faith. Defendant makes a pretty flimsy argument on this account, pointing only to the fact that Nifong is running for reelection and implying that he could profit financially from keeping his job, but presenting no evidence that this is what motivated him to bring the prosecution. Even if successful, some other DA from Nifong's office would just take over. Most of the rest of the motion consists of arguments about why defendant is not guilty: defective lineup, timeline etc. Even if meritorious these aren't really evidence of bad faith, but would be grounds for a motion to dismiss, not to recusal. The only question I have is whether Nifong made statements to the press that could have violate ethical rules. But even if he did, I don't see why recusal is the proper remedy. I think Nifong may be right, and Defendant filed this motion to simply rehash the same arguments for favorable press coverage.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#7)
    by chew2 on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:35:37 PM EST
    I suspect the Fox News coverage of the New Black Panther party has been designed to raise racial tensions and inflame white resentment of black extremism. I was flipping through the channels this weekend, and Fox was the only channel that seemed to be paying any attention to this radical black fringe group. It seemed like everytime I made a pass thru Fox they were playing this story. No other stations seemed to be paying any attention to them. I also didn't hear them say that the AV's father had rejected their help as racist. Typical Fox subliminal racism?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#8)
    by Lora on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:35:52 PM EST
    Well I did find some possible outrageous and false statements in the motion:
    ...pictures would seem to suggest that [AV] was severely intoxicated...this is a fact..
    Well, technically I guess it's a fact that the pictures suggest something, but, come on now. That's pushing it. Then it says that the:
    complainant was impaired...at the beginning of the dance cannot be seriously challenged.
    Excuse me? There are challenges to that. The 2nd dancer didn't notice anything wrong in the beginning. At first the defense lawyers made no mention of anything being wrong with the AV, one stating that the dance was stopped due to "offensive remarks." The motion says Nifong essentially leaked "confidential information." I'm confused. I would think the AV would have the right to say if any information about her is confidential. Or were there other confidentiality issues?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#9)
    by blcc on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:42:30 PM EST
    If this is perceived as nosing in please pardon me, I've been following the case/story on this website for weeks, but have never posted before. I am curious why there's been no response to this article in the Charlotte Observer. The relevant quote is "In 1998 the accuser told police that her ex-husband had tried to kill her, according to the court filings." Does TL or anyone else have an informed legal opinion on how this affects the AV's credibility? IANAL, thus perhaps my thoughts along the lines of "hmm, it appears she has a habit of making accusations she has no intention of pursuing" are an unwarranted leap?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#10)
    by chew2 on Mon May 01, 2006 at 09:46:17 PM EST
    It just occurred to me. Maybe the main reason for filing this recusal motion was to hurt Nifong's reelection chances by making all the allegations of personal misconduct against Nifong.

    Bissey seems to think they went inside at midnight. If the dancing started right away, when did the accuser have time to down one and a half drinks? April 23 Newsweek
    Roberts said that she thought the other woman arrived sober. But when the two began their strip show around midnight, the other woman began having trouble. "She started stumbling," recalled Roberts. "When I think back on it, she had a glassy look in her eyes." Roberts says she "gave her a look that said, 'C'mon, girl, what's going on?'-but got no response. The dance lasted about 10 minutes, according to Roberts; the defense lawyers say it lasted only about three minutes.


    I wonder how many of the New Black Panthers are FBI infiltrators. This is typical COINTELPRO.

    chew2 posted:
    It just occurred to me. Maybe the main reason for filing this recusal motion was to hurt Nifong's reelection chances by making all the allegations of personal misconduct against Nifong.
    Maybe it will have the opposite effect. If any voters are fed up with the defense lawyers' tactic this last move may motivate then to get out and vote tomorrow.

    blcc posted:
    I am curious why there's been no response to this article in the Charlotte Observer.
    The relevant quote is "In 1998 the accuser told police that her ex-husband had tried to kill her, according to the court filings."
    I hadn't seen that before. It's not too hard to explain why she didn't follow through with the three year old rape report, but this one could be harder to explain. I wonder what the particulars of this report are and if it was officially reported?

    I'm trying to think why Nifong wouldn't allow a probable cause hearing for Seligmann. If his case is strong, shouldn't it withstand such a hearing? From a strategic view, though, it might force Nifong to show his hand as to when specifically the prosecution is going to say the rape occurred. Nifong can't very well say it occurred with Seligmann participating when Seligmann wasn't there. Seems to me if rape wasn't over by 12:15, maybe 12:14, then the AV is going to have to include Seligmann leaving midway through the rape. Has her full statement every been released to the press? It would seem to be an important detail if Seligman's alibi is as airtight as it seems. I guess the disadvantage to Nifong is that he would have to present a coherent theory of the case prior to presenting the case, and maybe he doesn't have all his ducks lined up. I wonder if Seligmann's lawyer may not have also done this to help out other defense lawyers. If he can force a probable cause hearing for Seligmann, what's revealed by Nifong would have to help the other defense lawyers to plan their strategies. Finally, people have said that Seligmann could just have be dialing numbers or have someone else using his cellphone while he participating in the first part of the rape. But does anyone know for a fact whether or not he did connect with any of those eight phone calls?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#16)
    by chew2 on Mon May 01, 2006 at 10:17:19 PM EST
    Bob, The DA can bring a criminal charge either by indictment issued by a grand jury or by a judge after a probable cause hearing. Once the grand jury issues the indictment, I don't think the defendant can go back and compel a probable cause hearing. Defendant's remedy at this point is a motion to dismiss at trial.

    Given that there's little chance a judge would order Nifong to recuse himself, it seems almost certain that the motion was filed today to influence the election. Seligmann's ATM photo was the lead story on WRAL news in Raleigh--and I would imagine that upon seeing this photo, at least some voters might wonder why Nifong rushed to secure an indictment without even trying to find any evidence that might disprove his theory. It's worth noting that the police report has the accuser's claim that the rape lasted 30 minutes, with no mention of any of the three leaving as the event was occurring. So unless Seligmann was in two places at once, or unless he's somehow been able to doctor ATM photos in addition to all the other exculpatory evidence he has, it's hard to see how he could be anything but innocent.

    blcc, She told police her husband was trying to kill her? Do you think this may suggest a pattern? Has anyone heard anything more about her "nervous breakdown" and hospitalization in 2005? chew2, remember I mentioned a possibility of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia last week? And unlike Dr. Frist, I don't even have a medical license. I mean, it's possible about the previous gang rape and that her husband was really trying to kill her, and that Seligmann created a fantastic ruse in order to fake an alibi for the time when he really raped her. Or not. But if the police did not pursue her claim that her husband was trying to kill her it certainly suggests that she or her story was not believable in 1998. Since a death threat would not be considered part of her past sex life and therefore as something to be excluded under rape shield laws, shouldn't this be allowed into evidence? And if you allow this into evidence to show that she filed unreliable reports to the authorities, can you get the other rape allegation into evidence because of a pattern of false allegations?

    blcc: Welcome and thanks for posting that. I hadn't seen it. I've updated the post to include it and noted you called it to our attention.

    A laywer I aint, and I am well aware of how different systems can be, however. So much talk on the teevee, Hardly makes a trial necessary. Pundits come on, It's all said and done. Whatever happened to subjudice.

    Here's another thought, then. Can the grand jury, of its own volition, withdraw indictments? If the foreman of the grand jury looks at the photo of Seligmann withdrawing cash from the ATM at 12:24 or thereabouts, can they vote to dismiss its own charges? By the way, I am quite sure that the defense attorney wanted to skewer Nifong the day before the elections, and I think he has. I do not pretend to know enough about local politics there to hazard any guess about how the vote will go, though.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#22)
    by Teresa on Mon May 01, 2006 at 10:35:39 PM EST
    I don't think this case is going anywhere anyway without very strong medical evidence that a rape occurred, not just could have occurred. IF there is strong medical evidence I don't think her history of false (possibly) claims would matter to me if I was on the jury. I would be most concerned with whether she identified the right guys and I'm pretty sure that Reade Seligmann isn't one of them.

    khartoum posted:
    It's worth noting that the police report has the accuser's claim that the rape lasted 30 minutes, with no mention of any of the three leaving as the event was occurring.
    Are you talking about the search warrant or do you have information from a police report?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#24)
    by chew2 on Mon May 01, 2006 at 10:42:15 PM EST
    Bob, A lot of people, including myself, have tried to come up with plausible reasons or motives why the AV would falsify a claim of rape in the face of 40 hostile witnesses. You seem stuck on the simplest. She's crazy, so I don't really need to figure one out. Perhaps you could explain medically why someone who was bipolar would be likely to fabricate such a rape charge, and what specific evidence supports such a diagnosis in this case. I read one message thread where a lady argued that the reason the AV fabricated her rape charge was to get back at the team members because she was pissed off at them Why? Because she had offered sex to them and they had refused! We can all spin out our own narratives that resonate with us for whatever reason. I confess I'm getting tired of yours.

    inmyhumbleopinion posted:
    Are you talking about the search warrant or do you have information from a police report?
    The defense motion quotes from the police report that the accuser "reported she was sexually assaulted for an approximately 30 minute time period by three males." A poll out yesterday had the race a dead head, with Nifong trailing 39-38.

    inmyhumbleopinion posted:
    Are you talking about the search warrant or do you have information from a police report?
    The defense motion quotes from the police report that the accuser "reported she was sexually assaulted for an approximately 30 minute time period by three males." A poll out yesterday had the race a dead heat, with Nifong trailing 39-38.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#27)
    by Teresa on Mon May 01, 2006 at 11:01:08 PM EST
    A lot of people, including myself, have tried to come up with plausible reasons or motives why the AV would falsify a claim of rape in the face of 40 hostile witnesses.
    Chew2, she not only made this claim the night of the alleged rape, she gave the police the details 31 hours later after she had plenty of time to back out. If she's lying, I'd have to agree with Bob that she has serious mental issues. The only other motive I could think of is that she thought she was in trouble with the police and used the rape as an out with them.

    Chew2, You wrote:
    I think Nifong may be right, and Defendant filed this motion to simply rehash the same arguments for favorable press coverage.
    Don't forget churning. The constant flow of billable motions is the lifeblood of the defense attorney. For those rare clients who can afford it, the scattershot method is now advertised as an ethical imperative. If there is even the slightest chance of a motion succeeding, there's a danger in not filing it. It's part of the "No Motion Left Behind" initiative. Since Guideon v. Wainwright (Earl Warren's "jobs for lawyers" program), this ethical imperative also has applied to indigent defendants. It's only the pro bono defendants for whom the scattershot method is considered economically inefficient, and hence unethical. TL cites these statements by Nifong as "particularly" prejudicial....
    "I am convinced there was a rape, yes Sir" to Dan Abrams, 3/28/06 and "There's no doubt in my mind that she was raped and assaulted at this location" to Bill O'Reilly, 3/29/06.
    If the statements can be said to be "particularly" prejudicial, at least they can't be said to be prejudicial to the only two people Nifong has accused, since these two weren't at the house at the time of the rape. If anything, they are prejudicial to the complainent. A prejudicial statement to the defendants would have had her raped and sodomized in a taxi cab and/or at a Mexican restaurant. Bob in Pacifica wrote:
    chew2, remember I mentioned a possibility of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia last week? And unlike Dr. Frist, I don't even have a medical license.
    It never occurred to me that you might have a medical license, but if you did, a good word of advise for you might be to avoid diagnosing people who have neither consented to be diagnosed nor been involuntarily committed to your specific care. It's customary for yahoos like us to bandy about terms from the DSM with abandon, but there's a reason real doctors don't do that. Its analogous to Mike Tyson using his fists in a domestic dispute. It's not merely "per quod" defammation... it's "per se!"

    From the Motion For Recusal Of District Attorney:
    Investigator Hinman swore under oath on March 23, 2006, that XXXXXXXXX "reported she was sexually assaulted for an approximately 30 minute time period by three males."
    Hinman's quote is from the application for a court order seeking DNA samples from the team, which is usually referred to as a police document. It is a statement made by the police as opposed to a statement made to the police which is usually called a police report. I'm sure the terms are used interchangebly. What I was actually wondering was if the defense has seen the accuser's statement to the police.

    Teresa posted:
    Chew2, she not only made this claim the night of the alleged rape, she gave the police the details 31 hours later after she had plenty of time to back out.
    She agreed to the examination by the SANE nurse at 2:50 am. She says she decided to bring charges after her father came to see her at the hospital. He never did see her there and the doctors would not tell him why she was there. Had she not pressed charges, he most likely would never have found out she was dancing for an escort service and it's doubtful she was going to be charged with "drunk and disorderly" if she didn't go through with the sexual assault charges. Her boyfriend may have urged her to press charges as did her fiancée ten years earlier.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#31)
    by ltgesq on Tue May 02, 2006 at 05:08:25 AM EST
    I am a bit fascinated by the assertions in the comments of how south carolina criminal procedure is conducted. Unless you practice law in south carolina, you have no idea what the phrase "probable cause hearing" means. I don't, and don't sound off on the issue. For that matter, a motion to dismiss is used in a different way in almost every state in the country. In indiana, a MTD is never used for lack of evidence, but is for an unconstitutional statute. PB, you just don't get it. I suppose until a direct member of your family, or yourself, is a victim of a overzealous prosecutor, you never will.

    Duke Student's Lawyers Want D.A. off Case
    Indeed, Nifong counts a number of the dozen or so lawyers on the Duke defense team among his friends and supporters: One of them, Bill Thomas II, gave $1,000 to Nifong's reelection campaign in January, records show. Another, James D. "Butch" Williams, endorses him on Nifong's campaign website.
    While some of the players' attorneys criticized Nifong's specific actions in the Duke case in recent weeks, they continued to vouch for his fitness for public office. But Nifong's refusal to meet with some of them and hear exculpatory evidence has been a source of frustration.


    Duke Student's Lawyers Want D.A. off Case
    A separate motion -- one of several filed Monday -- asks the court to suppress the accuser's identification of the two suspects, arguing that the photo lineup that Nifong and police put her through was flawed.
    It also alleges that the accuser has "serious credibility problems." The motion makes reference to a 1996 rape allegation the accuser made, which police did not pursue for reasons that are unclear. It also alleges that the accuser stated that her husband threatened to kill her in 1998, but failed to appear at a hearing to prove her allegations, ending the investigation.


    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#34)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 06:48:26 AM EST
    ltgesq, You meant North Carolina. You're right, comments by a knowledgeable NC criminal atty would be welcome. I notice that even the TV networks can't get them and settle for retired judges from New England. I did take a look at the NC criminal procedure code before commenting. GS 15A-954 provides for a motion to dismiss before trial on grounds of law only. GS 15A-1227 provides for a motion for dismissal at trial based on insufficiency of evidence. GS 15A-611 et seq. speaks to probable cause hearings, but you're right I don't really know how they work. Comments by a criminal atty would be welcome. My question is: Can a defense atty selectively withold evidence in his possession, such as the camera and photos of the party from discovery. What if those photos were incriminating or not helpful to his case?

    chew2, I'm going to see if this new power of mine to diagnose over the internet is transferrable to the lottery. To presume a rape happened because you cannot think of a logical reason for the AV to lie may not be the firmest ground right now. But your faith in her is admirable. In the meanwhile, does anyone know how her husband was going to kill her in 1998? Did she have injuries then? And IMHO, the fiance who urged her to file charges in the first gang rape, that was the guy who was trying to kill her, right? That is, he was trying to kill her because she had no logical reason to lie to the police about that.

    Anyone that says they can understand why this woman would lie about being rape, has not looked honestly at the facts of this case. First of all it is very likely that she was not paid like she wanted to be paid, and it was a way to get back at the boys at the party by calling the police, and then on top of that claiming to have been raped. Also this same women was getting ready to be arrest on a public drunkedness charge, and is likely to have wanted to weasel her way out of it, by claiming that she was raped. Now that I look at it, this woman is not crazy, she is a liar. She knew exactly what she did. She knew what she did 10 yrs ago, and when she claimed her ex-husband tried to kill her. I am gonna back off from the idea that she is crazy.

    chew2, I don't own the idea that the AV may very well have a psychological condition. And it's quite apart from the physical evidence in the case, most of which has not been revealed to any of us. We can keep on speculating on what specifically was in the rape examination and how reliable second-hand sources are and how much integrity Nifong must have and how scummy defense lawyers are, or we can refit the pieces when something new comes up, like the AV having gone to police to report that her husband was trying to kill her. I'm sure you're tired of me. Why would the AV fake a story about her husband wanting to kill her? I said a few weeks ago in a more strident rooting section, THE NEWS BLOG, that it's not a good idea to make icons out of people. Back in the old days they'd make sure you're dead a few years before they'd make your statue. That way there'd be no surprises. She went to the police saying her husband was trying to kill her. Surprise, surprise.

    If the DA participated in the photo IDing, he's fair game to be called up as a witness to that, right?

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    And IMHO, the fiance who urged her to file charges in the first gang rape, that was the guy who was trying to kill her, right? That is, he was trying to kill her because she had no logical reason to lie to the police about that.
    I don't know if threatening to kill someone is the same as trying to kill someone. From the article:
    It also alleges that the accuser stated that her husband threatened to kill her in 1998
    I just read in a court filing that Charlie Sheen's wife claims he, in front of their children, threaten to kill her, but she hasn't pressed charges against him yet. In the lacrosse case, I was refuting the examples defense attorneys and posters here have given for why the accuser may have lied: To avoid her father finding out she was a dancer and to avoid a drunk and disorderly charge. By the time she made a decision to go forward with the charges, I don't think either of those reasons were valid.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    If the DA participated in the photo IDing, he's fair game to be called up as a witness to that, right?
    I don't know if Nifong was actually present. The lead investigator was. The claim is Nifong directed the procedures used in the photo ID process.

    Ltgesq, You wrote:
    PB, you just don't get it. I suppose until a direct member of your family, or yourself, is a victim of a overzealous prosecutor, you never will.
    The reason I have the interest in legal issues I do is that a friend of mine a few years ago found himself on the butt end of an overzealous prosecution par excellance. He put everything he had into his defense, but wound up being convicted (of the $100 misdemeanor "criminal defammation") after which he committed suicide. The victim of his defammation later argued that he had been innocent of the charges. I don't view these kids as being at risk of anything but a trial, and even that could have been avoided. The idea that they could wind up innocently convicted is absurd, a figment of the imagination of some overly ambitious defense attorneys. But go ahead, prove me wrong. Maybe Nifong has got enough zealousness to make up for 45 lacrosse students testifying that "nothing happened."

    Oh yeah, and facts. Maybe he's got a couple of those too.

    supamike, I agree that there are reasons why the AV may have faked a rape charge, and why she may have felt obligated to continue with them in the days after she made the initial claim. They are not well-thought out, they do not reflect integrity, but there are possibilities as to why she may have lied to file the charges. I have said that what very little we know about the AV's history suggests, to me at least, someone who a lot of emotional problems that reflect negatively on her character as a witness of fact. It's true that some people have character problems because their characters are destroyed in the court of public opinion. For example, I'm pretty sure that if there was a little camera at the end of Jeff Gannon's most-famous appendage that no one would still be talking about Monica's blue dress. It's a matter of reporting. That being said, we have a previous gang rape charge by the AV which the police chose not to pursue. We have a murder threat which the police chose not to pursue. The prior rape claim may be suppressed, but I don't think that the attempted murder claim can. We have someone who behaved irrationally when intoxicated in an incident related to her occupation of stripping: stealing a car. Sorry, it's not rational behavior to steal a car and take the police on a wild, drunken chase just because she wanted to go home. We have the AV being hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown" last year. I think that anyone who is serious about this case would be foolish to ignore the pattern here or dismiss out of hand that the woman may have some kind of mental illness which may have something to do with her behavior and her report of gang rape to the police. She may have been angry that she wasn't paid. She certainly was intoxicated, which would cloud her judgment. She certainly would not have appreciated the sexist and racist comments made toward her. All of these things would play a part in her decision-making process. Or she may have been raped. Everything I've said about her mental condition is out the window if there is physical proof, or there are witnesses to the rape. So far that evidence hasn't be shown to the public, but many hints of mental state have.

    I can see defense cross-examining the lead investigator with questions like: And so District Attorney directed you to use only photos of the members of the lacrosse team, in violation of the guidelines for photo identification?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#46)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 08:13:52 AM EST
    Black Panther Party Rally Goes Peacefully Handful of members march off-campus to lacrosse house

    chew2 posted:
    IMHO,
    It's customary for yahoos like us to bandy about terms from the DSM with abandon, but there's a reason real doctors don't do that.
    Yes. Especially when ignorant use of those medical concepts don't help us to explain the topic under discussion.
    Hey, I didn't call us all "yahoos," that PB character did, though I concur.

    I think that anyone who is serious about this case would be foolish to ignore the pattern here or dismiss out of hand that the woman may have some kind of mental illness which may have something to do with her behavior and her report of gang rape to the police. She may have been angry that she wasn't paid. She certainly was intoxicated, which would cloud her judgment. She certainly would not have appreciated the sexist and racist comments made toward her. All of these things would play a part in her decision-making process.
    She may have some sort of mental illness, but either her family does not know it, or is in some serious deep denial about her mental state. We have seen the father and the mother, and ex-husband and all, come out and tell us how stable this woman is. Now I kind of took it that they were just going ot defend her because she was family, but they should open up and start coming out telling people what is up with her. I think this is why some of the past is being spilled to the news from the family now.

    Kim Cates is furious with Durham police for not arresting a New Black Panther member.
    You've got to see the photo for the above caption
    Durham resident Kim Cates said she felt threatened when one of the New Black Panthers took an aggressive stance towards her. She said he looked like he was going to hit her. She wanted police to arrest the man, but officers say he didn't break any laws.
    "They don't deserve to be here, they don't need to be here!" Cates shouted. "We have enough problems of our own in this town and we need to take care of it (ourselves.) Let justice take care of itself!


    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#50)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 08:31:36 AM EST
    PB & IMHO
    Hey, I didn't call us all "yahoos," that PB character did, though I concur.
    Oops. I meant to direct that comment to PB.

    Regarding the New Black Panthers, does anyone here remember COINTELPRO?

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue May 02, 2006 at 08:40:04 AM EST
    nice post IMHO - She looks so calm and reserved there, I can only imagine that she really was frightened. PB - A $100 misdemeanor and someone killed themself? Sounds to me like there might have been more going on there than meets the eye. Is Nifong zealous? I would say impatient and immature would be more appropriate. I would probably want to know much more about the accuser prior to trying to make a name for myself prosecuting what may turn out to be a group of "not guilty". The AV's background is turning out to be a nightmare for him and frankly he deserves to be criticized for his lack of professionalism in letting the evidence sort itself out...

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#53)
    by scribe on Tue May 02, 2006 at 08:47:24 AM EST
    TL: thanks for linking the aff. In a world where the Rule of Law existed, Nifong would be off the case in a minute. This is Carolina we're talking about, so I'm not holding my breath. a few notes: Para 5: "...began performing in front of approximately 40 young men, most but not all of whom were Duke Lacrosse players." If provable, this should be enough to end the case. Nifong set up a photo lineup of only lacrosse players. Nifong never, to our knowledge, investigated anyone other than lacrosse players. In his zeal for publicity and election, he demonized (no pun intended) only the lacrosse players and let anyone not a lacrosse player walk away uncharged, unquestioned, uninvestigated, and unslandered. Para 19. Beyond crippling the State's case, Nifong's participation in the lineup production and taking over the police to do it his way is enough to (a) deprive him of absolute prosecutorial immunity and (b) make him a witness at some point. On the prosecutorial immunity, when a prosecutor becomes an investigator, he no longer gets the prosecutor's immunity. See See Giuffre v. Bissell, 4 F.3d (3d Cir. 1994), which interprets the Supreme Court cases of Buckley v. Fitzsimmons and Burns v. Reed. An extended set of excerpts from Giuffre follows (all the good stuff is in parts III and IV of that opinion, if you go to the link):
    More recently, the Supreme Court in Buckley v. Fitzsimmons, 113 S. Ct. 2606 (1993), reaffirmed the principle that "[a] prosecutor's administrative duties and those investigatory functions that do not relate to an advocate's preparation for the initiation of a prosecution or for judicial proceedings are not entitled to absolute immunity," although those duties and functions may be protected by qualified immunity. Id. at 2615. The Court reasoned that, "[w]hen a prosecutor performs the investigative functions normally performed by a detective or police officer, it is 'neither appropriate nor justifiable that, for the same act, immunity should protect the one and not the other. The Court in Buckley held that a prosecutor, who was sued in a § 1983 action by a released murder suspect, was not entitled to absolute immunity because he was not acting as an advocate for the State when he allegedly fabricated evidence against the murder suspect and made false statements to the press about that evidence. Rather, we view Prosecutor Bissell's act of advising Chief Thornburg during the challenged forfeiture negotiations as the functional equivalent of a prosecutor providing legal advice to police during the investigative stages of a criminal proceeding, an act which is not absolutely immunized from liability. Burns v. Reed, 500 U.S. at 496. Burns v. Reed rejected any notion that giving legal advice to investigators is related to a prosecutor's role in screening cases for prosecution and in safeguarding the fairness of the criminal judicial process. The Court reasoned that: Indeed, it is incongruous to allow prosecutors to be absolutely immune from liability for giving advice to the police, but to allow police officers only qualified immunity for following the advice. . . . Almost any action by a prosecutor, including his or her direct participation in purely investigative activity, could be said to be in some way related to the ultimate decision whether to prosecute, but we have never indicated that absolute immunity is that expansive. That reasoning, which we believe applicable here, was reaffirmed by the Court in Buckley v. Fitzsimmons , 113 S. Ct. at 2617 ("When the functions of prosecutors and detectives are the same, as they were here, the immunity that protects them is the same.").
    In so many words, Nifong's problems are only beginning.

    IMHO, Chew2 et al, Are you saying that the alleged victim's mental state shouldn't be discussed at Talkleft? Or are you saying that we here at Talkleft don't have the expertise to talk about it, or to make diagnoses? I guess that the host can ban those of us who trespass into areas where we have not be given official license to speculate. In the meantime... We all know that none of us can make diagnoses without examining the patient (and would be open to suit if we pretended to be doctors), but all of us have experience in the world. You spend time working with people and you get an idea about how they're processing the information going into them by what's coming out. The alleged victim went to the police twice before and made claims that crimes were committed against her and both times the police declined to pursue the matter. Apparently, both times the AV declined to pursue the matter too. That suggests something above the random. The woman, when intoxicated in the past, acted irrationally when confronted with the simple task of trying to get home. She could have called a friend or relative to come pick her up. She could have waited. But she stole a taxicab and led the police on a chase. That's not clear thinking in a situation where most of us could manage to find our way home without committing mutltiple crimes and endangering other lives. Perhaps she stole the cab because she didn't want her father to know she was stripping. Perhaps she lied about being raped in order to deflect her father's disapproval upon discovery that she was stripping. It would not be rational, but it would not be inconsistent. Her behavior around stealing a car was not clear thinking. Not good at controlling impulses. Not good at thinking about consequences. Not good at thinking about the welfare of others. You may say, but that was different, she was drunk. She was certainly intoxicated the night of this last alleged rape too, no matter what the source of her intoxication. Last year the woman was hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown." I can't diagnose over the internet, but we all know that "nervous breakdown" is not a medical term, so there was some as yet unidentified psychiatric disorder which the AV suffered which caused her to be hospitalized. Don't want to guess what it was? That's your choice, but don't pretend a diagnosis didn't exist. A diagnosis existed that made medical professionals choose to take her away from her two children and put her under observation and to initiate a treatment with drugs. Depression? Probably, but depression caused by what underlying condition? What wasn't working in her mental processes? If I am a yahoo for wondering what has been going on in this woman's mind then what are those here who want to stifle trying to figure out what makes the AV do what she does? It's all whistling past the graveyard to me.

    By the way, if you're ever down in Durham, there's a great little Mexican restaurant called the Cosmic Cantina, over by ninth street, just a quick jaunt across Duke's east campus from where the famous lacrosse celebration was held. They specialize in burritos, and are open very late. It was started by a 1995 graduate of Duke.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#56)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 09:35:08 AM EST
    Scribe, Re: absolute vs. qualified immunity for Nifong. Even if Nifong is only entitled to qualified immunity, I don't see how injecting himself into the lineup procedure (if true) knowingly violated the defendant's constitutional rights. TL has said the line-up standards are only advisory, and are not required by law.
    As we stated in Good , "[t]he ultimate issue is whether, despite the absence of a case applying established principles to the same facts, reasonable officers in the defendants' position at the relevant time could have believed, in light of what was in the decided case law, that their conduct was lawful." 891 F.2d at 1092. We note that qualified immunity protects "all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law." Malley v. Briggs , 475 U.S. 335, 341 (1986); Schrob I , 948 F.2d at 1421.
    Giuffrey v. Bissel The proper line-up procedure was a judgement call and not plainly illegal so as to violate the defendant's constitutional rights.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#57)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 09:50:42 AM EST
    Bob, Nobody is saying you can't talk about whatever you want. I'm just saying I'm personally not interested in listening to, or responding to, your medical speculation. You can speculate about the AV's mental state all you want. But for me medical terms and diagnoses like "schizophrenia" or "bipolar disorder" add no explanatory value whatsoever to that speculation or more particularly to the likelihood that she fabricated a rape charge.

    Can a defense atty selectively withold evidence in his possession, such as the camera and photos of the party from discovery. What if those photos were incriminating or not helpful to his case?
    I'm not a NC attorney, a criminal lawyer, or even a litigator, but I did take evidence in law school a couple years back. I don't think a defense attorney has a general obligation to volunteer unfavorable evidence to the prosecution - my guess is that would infringe on the accused's right against self incrimination. But the defense can't hide evidence either - that would be obstructing justice and possibly aiding and abetting. With physical evidence like this, the defense would probably have to turn it over if requested. My knowledge of criminal law and procedure is really rusty, but I imagine the defense would also have to disclose any exhibits that it hopes to admit a decent amount of time before trial (I could be wrong on this). Whether and to what extent a criminal defense attorney may withold evidence depends on a lot of factors. It's an area where state law, federal consitutional law, and rules of legal ethics all intersect. To give you a feel, I'll lay out the extremes. A defense lawyer can't hide the murder weapon in his safe and refuse to turn it over - that's obstructing justice. But if a client confesses to the attorney, the attorney doesn't have to, and shouldn't, tell the prosecution - that would stifle attorney/client communicaiton to an extent infringing upon the accused's right to an attorney. A grey area would be if a body is missing, the client discloses its location to a defense attorney, and the attorney goes out and verifies this info. State law would probably require disclosure of this information, but that has to be weighed against the constitutional rights of the accused.

    chew2
    The proper line-up procedure was a judgement call and not plainly illegal so as to violate the defendant's constitutional rights.
    I'm inclined to agree. The results of the lineup might not be admissible for the prosecution. But the powerful evidence for the prosecution won't be that the victim picked the defendants out of a lineup. The powerful evidence will be the witness sitting on the stand, pointing to the defendants, and saying "those are the men that raped me." The defense will want to use the lineup procedures to prohibit the victim from giving this sort of testimony. They're not real likely to win on that one. But the sloppy lineup procedures do give the defense additional evidence to challenge the victim's credibility.

    Alleged victim, huesofblue.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#61)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 10:42:55 AM EST
    IMHO, The LAT article you linked states that the AV claimed her husband "threatened" to kill her while the Durham News article states that he "tried" to kill her. Pretty big difference. I think it's pretty common in domestic disputes for these types of claims to arise, often in connection with seeking a protective order. One of the reasons they're not pursued is that the parties reconcile, or the wife doesn't want the husband to go to jail.
    It also alleges that the accuser stated that her husband threatened to kill her in 1998, but failed to appear at a hearing to prove her allegations, ending the investigation. Durham police were unable to verify that allegation Monday evening.
    Your LAT article also disputes the claim that Nifong is bringing this prosecution for political advantage:
    But a number of Durham lawyers -- prosecutors and defense attorneys -- have scoffed at the idea that Nifong would play politics with such a serious matter. Brian Aus, a Durham defense attorney, noted that Nifong shied away from politics for most of his 25-plus years in the district attorney's office. .................. For the first time, Nifong has had to campaign to keep his job. "But he is not a political figure," Aus said. "He's stayed in the past away from politics. ......But I don't believe there was any political idea regarding these indictments." Over the years, Nifong earned a reputation among many Durham criminal attorneys as a tough prosecutor, but also a fair one: Aus said Nifong often gave the defense access to files beyond those he was required to turn over under North Carolina discovery laws. Indeed, Nifong counts a number of the dozen or so lawyers on the Duke defense team among his friends and supporters: While some of the players' attorneys criticized Nifong's specific actions in the Duke case in recent weeks, they continued to vouch for his fitness for public office.


    Another thought came to me when I took a hike this morning. If the two strippers entered the house at midnight and the alleged victim were immediately given a laced drink, then the women danced for three minutes, left, and came back in around 12:05 or even 12:10, that wouldn't be enough time for the drug to begin working. Things that have to go through the stomach take at least twenty minutes, maybe a half hour or more if you've got food in your system. So if the three men gave her a drug in order to knock her out and rape her, they didn't wait for it to start working. What's the point of giving someone a drug to knock them out and not wait for it to start working? How can you presume that someone's memory will be impaired before the drug starts to work? Just a thought. There is something hinky about laying out a plot to rape someone before you see them and then not following what would be the most basic element in a drugging.

    SUO - alleged, of course. Chew2 - I kind of doubt any of the past police reports are going to come in. The reports only impugn the AV's credibility if they're false. The defense might be able to ask the AV about these reports on cross, but if the AV said the allegations happened, the collateral evidence rule will probably prohibit the defense from introducing evidence to counter that assertion. Otherwise, this would turn into three trials instead of one.

    I have heard the the lineup was flawed not only because it didn't include men who were not at the party but didn't include men who were. I would also know how the lineup was shown to the alleged victim. Was she told that these are pictures of men who were at the party, or these are pictures of all the men who were at the party, or these were pictures of men? Would any or all of these be proper?

    Can the defense ask, "Have you ever made charges of a crime committed against you to the police? How many times? "Did you pursue these charges? Did the police pursue these charges? Why not?"

    Not lineup, photo ID.

    Can the alleged victim be asked about her criminal history or her psychiatric history? And in a trial with three defendants and possibly three different defense attorneys, does each defense attorney get to cross-examine the witnesses? My guess would be yes.

    Bob: I find your comments to have some definite "explanatory value to the speculation or more particularly to the likelihood that she fabricated a rape charge." Please keep expressing your opinion, as should everyone. If Chew2 or anyone else doesn't find alternative opinions thought provoking or relevant then they should not comment on them. But some folks can't help themselves and are just big mouths. (Last I checked this is TL's blog, not that of Chew2 and IMHO). Everything is pure speculation at this point.

    Bob in Pacifica posted:
    So if the three men gave her a drug in order to knock her out and rape her, they didn't wait for it to start working. What's the point of giving someone a drug to knock them out and not wait for it to start working?
    IF that was the plan, it fell through when Kim declined her drink. Kim was sober and not leaving without the accuser. If the players had been able to wait until 1:30, their prey would have been "passed out drunk." Bob in Pacifica posted:
    How can you presume that someone's memory will be impaired before the drug starts to work?
    Who care's if she calls the police, "She's just a stripper."

    Kalidoggie posted:
    (Last I checked this is TL's blog, not that of Chew2 and IMHO).
    Last I checked, I haven't asked of my fellow yahoos to curb their comments.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#71)
    by scribe on Tue May 02, 2006 at 12:22:16 PM EST
    Chew: IMHO a little (not too) creative lawyering will go a long way on Nifong. "plainly incompetent or knowingly violate the law" - what I read from the motion papers is that there was practice and procedure, i.e., the Police Department's "General Order" which prescribed exactly the procedure to be used in photo lineups. Nifong took over and tossed it. For all we know (I'm speculating), Nifong, in an earlier job in the D.A.'s office, may have had a hand in drafting the photo lineup procedure for the police so as to make sure it complied with applicable law, constitutional and otherwise. If that's the case, I'd say there's a severe problem for him. "Plainly incompetent" - bringing a prosecution which looks like it's ready to fall apart already sounds that way to me; I'm sure a good plaintiff's attorney can make it work. And, let's remember, Giuffre got a pile of money from the County for his civil rights being violated. Prosecutor Bissell was indicted, tried, convicted and supposed to serve some years in a federal pen (for stealing from a gas station* he owned with some other cronies in the Prosecutor's office - arrogant dumbass got caught on his own videotape dipping into the register - and for tax violations), and his wife got dragged in on it, too. But before sentencing he somehow managed to find a gun he had hidden, slip his electronic monitoring bracelet and the cops watching him, get his hands on a car (I think he stole some plates), and make it all the way to Laughlin, Nevada. There, (irony of ironies) he holed up in a low-rent casino hotel, gambled a bit, hired a stripper to come to his room and dance and, after she left, blew his brains out rather than surrender to the feds, who had tracked him there and were trying to talk him out. He was a real "tough guy" who overreached and abused defendants as a matter of course. In the end, when he was a defendant himself, he couldn't deal. * His damn gas station always had the highest prices in the county. Graft's expensive.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#72)
    by azbballfan on Tue May 02, 2006 at 12:28:32 PM EST
    Regarding the use of rape drugs and the time it takes for them to take effect. These drugs are prevalent and people need to be careful. I was the unfortunate victim of a bad prank. 1) It doesn't take very long for them to take efffect - 5-10 minutes maximum. 2) They affect your memory of events prior to taking the drink. They screw up your memory for a while. 3) The body metabolizes them very quickly - there is no evidence of them in the bloodstream a couple of hours later.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#73)
    by wumhenry on Tue May 02, 2006 at 12:43:39 PM EST
    I read in a news report (I forget which publication) a couple of weeks ago that a neighbor said that he saw the accuser re-enter the house at about 12:30. This was reported before the AV identified Seligman as an alleged assailant and thus before it was reported that a taxidriver's cellphone records proved that S. called a taxi at 12:14 and that the driver said he picked him up four mintues later. So the neighbor had no reason to suppose that his statement about the time would have any exculpatory significance. I assume that defense attorneys have taken a sworn statement from the guy to nail his account down. If the AV went back in the house at any time after 12:14 she was lying when she fingered Seligman from a photo lineup with "100% certainty".

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#74)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 12:52:21 PM EST
    huesofblue,
    The defense might be able to ask the AV about these reports on cross, but if the AV said the allegations happened, the collateral evidence rule will probably prohibit the defense from introducing evidence to counter that assertion.
    I tend to agree. Independent evidence of these prior complaints by the AV can't be introduced. They can only be asked about on cross. But like you I'm not a criminal or trial atty. NC Evidence Code Sec. 8C-608 provides:
    Specific instances of the conduct of a witness, for the purpose of attacking or supporting his credibility, other than conviction of crime as provided in Rule 609, may not be proved by extrinsic evidence. They may, however, in the discretion of the court, if probative of truthfulness or untruthfulness, be inquired into on cross‑examination of the witness ...
    NC Ev. Code Sec. 404(b) provides:
    (b) Other crimes, wrongs, or acts. - Evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is not admissible to prove the character of a person in order to show that he acted in conformity therewith.
    And of course the judge may also bar this line of questioning on the grounds that it is too prejudicial and not sufficiently relevant to the current rape charge.

    BIP -
    Can the defense ask, "Have you ever made charges of a crime committed against you to the police? How many times?
    The defense would be asking these questions on cross examination. The scope of cross is generally limited to the witness's direct testimony and the witness's credibility. If the line of questions above leads to asking whether the previous allegations were true, it probably goes to credibility. But these two questions standing alone are arguably outside the permissible scope of cross. Both sides know this is coming and will probably hash out the boundaries with the judge prior to the actual trial. The trial judge has substantial discretion in setting these boundaries.
    "Did you pursue these charges? Did the police pursue these charges? Why not?"
    These questions are a little trickier. The prosecution can object on a couple grounds. Arguably, the questions have a tendency to confuse the jury (failure to pursue doesn't equal false - but a jury might think it does. Also, whether to press charges is a prosecutor's call. While prosecutors often defer to victims, it's not the victim's decision). The question "Why not?" calls for speculation regarding the actions of the police. This would really be a judgement call for the trial judge. That said, the real reason to think twice about asking these questions has nothing to do with rules of evidence. The real concern would be the AV's answers. If she didn't pursue the previous charges but is pursuing these, it could bolster her credibility. The defense lawyers would be pretty limited in their ability to rebut.

    Re: Duke Player's Lawyer Seeks Recusal of DA for C (none / 0) (#76)
    by chew2 on Tue May 02, 2006 at 12:56:01 PM EST
    huesofblue, ps. As to the prior rape allegation, North Carolina cases cited by TL indicate the defendant would have to show by some "definitive evidence" that the allegation was false before they could ask about it on cross. The relevant comments are in the prior Duke Lacrosse thread.

    kalidoggie, I have no idea of whether or not a rape occurred. Because of my past work as a shop steward I think like a defense attorney (sort of), and so I'm curious about the extent to which certain areas can be explored by the defense. I admit many of the posters here are lawyers or have other legal backgrounds which leave me in the dust. But you still have to ask the questions. When past cases and tribulations arise that are potentially damaging to the accuser's credibility I would want to know what is admissible. I also like to think of various possible scenarios. The woman could be stark raving mad and still be a victim of a rape. Probably more likely. WARNING, speculation ahead: The AV's father said that she was hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown," took her medicines and then was okay. I wonder what medications she took and I wonder if she stopped them not because she was better but because she stopped them. If the AV had been taking anti-psychotic medications, for example, and then stopped treatment against medical advice, would that be admissible? +++ IMHO, One of my favorite Bob Dylan songs is "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll," wherein a hard-working poor black woman was murdered by a rich young white man on a whim. I don't necessarily dismiss the possibility that three young men felt so privileged that they could rape someone. Or that their sense of privilege was inflated by drink. And I'm sure that a lot of them would dismiss the women as "just strippers," although that comment was apparently made by another attendee on the lawn regarding Kim Roberts, who at the time was phoning in a false report to the police. She may have been stripper or she may have been a banker or a school teacher or in line for sainthood, but she was lying to the police about the time the comment was made. Nevertheless, if the drug was to knock out both strippers, and only one stripper drank the drug, are you saying that they went to plan B after only a few minutes to rape the one who took the drug before it could affect her? If the other stripper were otherwise occupied (as she apparently was) wouldn't it make sense to wait until the alleged victim began getting woozy (presuming you accept Roberts' opinion of the AV's sobriety and not the lacrosse team's). And wouldn't it cross their minds that the other one was a potential witness to a felony crime? In some ways the rape would make more sense if the alleged victim were intoxicated before she got there. At least then you have an explanation that she was chosen as a matter of opportunity and not a pre-planned rape. The pre-planned rape theory has some big problems, especially with Seligmann's timeline.

    chew 2
    NC Ev. Code Sec. 404(b) provides: (b) Other crimes, wrongs, or acts. - Evidence of other crimes, wrongs, or acts is not admissible to prove the character of a person in order to show that he acted in conformity therewith.
    I haven't looked at the NC rules, but 404 is usually trumped by other rules when it comes to bad acts touching on the truthfulness of the witness. That said, 404(b) shouldn't really comes into play because of the cross examination rules.

    chew2 - You're right about the rape questions. I think the rape shield laws would keep those out absent some evidence that the accusations were false. This whole case is full of interesting evidence issues.

    azbballfan, 5 minutes would put the pre-planned rape scenario back into play. Still seems a little too fast for me. How does it get in the bloodstream so fast? I know that drugs that cause blackouts can affect someone's memory of events immediately prior to the effect's onset, but there is no guarantee, so giving her a drug and then raping her immediately still strikes me as counterintuitive. The woman's statement indicates that she was aware of what was happening to her. Could she have been under the influence of the drug, weakened and visibly staggering, say, but still have a clear enough mind to know what's going on? Just asking.