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The Left As a Broken Triangle

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 11:43:55 PM EST
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Peter Daou has a depressing but accurate assessment of the efficacy of progressive blogging - borne out by the NSA Scandal and the Alito hearings. We're one side of a broken triangle.

This, then, is the reality: progressive bloggers and online activists - positioned on the front lines of a cold civil war - face a thankless and daunting task: battle the Bush administration and its legions of online and offline apologists, battle the so-called “liberal” media and its tireless weaving of pro-GOP narratives, battle the ineffectual Democratic leadership, and battle the demoralization and frustration that comes with a long, steep uphill struggle.

....Unfortunately for the progressive netroots, the intricate interplay of Republican persuasion tactics, media story-telling, and 21st century information flow seems beyond the ken of most Democratic strategists and leaders. The hellish reality progressive bloggers have acknowledged and internalized is still alien to the party establishment. Dem strategy is still two parts hackneyed sloganeering and one part befuddlement over the stifling of their message.

There's hope. Peter lays out how the functioning triangle should work. Now it's up to the Democratic leadership to listen.

Jane and James Wolcott weigh in. Atrios agrees.

My two cents: Rome wasn't built in a day. The reason we are getting stuck with Alito is because we have a Republican president who promised the radical right his judicial picks in order to get re-elected. The reality is, if we didn't get Alito, we'd get someone equally objectionable.

We get the Government we elect. Alito is a practice run. We need to learn from it. So does the Democratic leadership. If we can fix our broken links for 2006 and 2008, we'll have made great progress. Now is not the time to get discouraged. It's the time to work harder.

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    The Left As a Broken Triangle | 68 comments (68 topical)
    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#1)
    by ras on Thu Jan 12, 2006 at 11:53:18 PM EST
    1. The Left needs to stand for something. Whining like a spoiled teenager w/out offering alternatives does not count. 2. The Left needs to eschew the politics of personal attack. 3. The Left needs to study history. Socialism was a socially and economically inferior approach. Whatever shortcomings other systems may have had, socialism's were, and are, worse. 4. The Left needs to believe its own message. E.g. the Left does not believe its own message re Alito (if they did, they'd force the Dems to filibuster the nominee as surely as conservative grassroots lobbied for Miers' replacement). How can you inspire when you don't believe yourself? Bottom line: it's about substance, not style. It has *nothing* to do with getting your message out. It has everything to do with what that message is.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:42:43 AM EST
    You would be better off reading Carville and Begala - I don't want to get to where they want to go, but I think they identify the problem for Democrats fairly well: -- The activists and party leaders think it's a problem of messaging (as stated in the piece you linked to) -- The actual problem is the stubborn clinging to extreme positions The best example they give of extreme positioning is abortion. The public sits in the "mushy middle" on this - it's not in favor of a ban, but it's also not in favor of abortion on demand. The Republicans have realized this - you'll note that neither the administration nor congress has pushed that way. When they push for things that the public backs - like an end to partial birth abortion - Dems go nuts, and take what amounts to the NRA gun position - any modification is tantamount to retreat. Carville and Begala argue that this positioning is offputting, and I agree with them.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#3)
    by chemoelectric on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:01:21 AM EST
    Offering 'alternatives' is what the Democrats do. Crafting 'messages' they also do. When you have a 'message' it is important to deliver it well. So this is just more of the same. What the Democrats need and don't have is the willingness to chance failure. Instead they strategize on how to mitigate their losses, waiting, waiting, doing nothing too risky, waiting for someone to hand them power. Then they will make their move.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#4)
    by Lora on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:37:59 AM EST
    "We get the Government we elect." Wake up, please. We didn't get the government we elected. We got Bush. And we'll get more of the same no matter how we vote unless we repair voting! The repubs "fixed" it; it's up to us to repair it and time is running out. TL, I can't believe you are willfully ignoring this issue. Do you really think, given a chance, that the repubs won't steal the election? Especially when they have the opportunity handed them on the golden platter of electronic voting? I don't want to wake up the day after the election to cave-ins and head-shakings and "where-did-we-go-wrongs?" AGAIN!

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#5)
    by wg on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:43:23 AM EST
    Having Alito on the Supreme Court is an unpleasant prospect, but you have to admit it, they picked a candidate that was technically competent, intelligent, squeaky clean and who came across as serious, even thoughtful, very un-GOP like. In fact he appeared much more serious than Roberts who was nothing more than a Sleek Willy on that committee not that long ago. Alito deserves credit for that. At the appellate level Alito was relatively harmless, the Supreme Court is another situation altogether. Indications are he will seriously unbalance it. The right side probably doesn't realize what they have bought into. True, he may give them their Roe vs. Wade, but they will pay serious price in civil liberties. The chances are, with Alito sitting there, there will be more surveillance, more police/FBI/NSA powers, far more assertive executive, more people in prisons, tacit winking at Bush torturing people, less chances of prevailing in courts against prosecutors, etc. In another words, there will be less justice the way most of us understand it, more justice Alito way. To simplify it for some GOP-ers, your and your kid's rectum/vagina will not longer be safe with him there. But that's what you get when you are as myopic as GOP-ers are these days. -- There is always a chance that these hearings taught him something, but I doubt it, as far as I can tell nothing in his reactions indicated that.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 09:15:27 AM EST
    A perfect example is the endless cry from the corrupt corpulent corporate apologists that there is no there there on the Democratic side simply not true but that is what the paid media says... We lost the fight on the supreme court on election day not this week. walk through any news room and it filled with junior delays and ralph reed's out of the college republicans and major news figures are all Republicans --The crap from Brokaw continues --lest we forget his craven interview of Schwarzenegger right before the special election. There are things that can be done. For example, in California the Republican party has an able spokesperson in every area that can respond to media requests and everytime there is a partisan issue they get time. When I asked about this a local station said the Dems only made the state chair available and not a local person. The Democratic party has a lot to say and has been saying it but it is frequently drowned out by the liars for the Republicans. The body armour issue is a perfect example --Democrats such as Rep Ellen Tauscher picked up the issue and have made great strides including raising money to buy armour when the Bushco wasn't doing its job. At the heart of the problem is that a lot of people (although they won't admit it) think having a cowboy lunatic as president makes us safer...they think it works for North Korea --if we have a loon people will be afraid of us.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 09:32:27 AM EST
    they think it works for North Korea --if we have a loon people will be afraid of us. Oh yeah, great strategy. Unfortunately they're right... and like with N. Korea the world IS afraid... that "dear leader" will go completely off the rails... and their response is containment and working toward eventual regime change.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#8)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:15:33 AM EST
    Man, if anyone wants to know why the Left keeps losing, is there a better example than the Leftie comments on this thread?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:21:41 AM EST
    Ras: is there a better example Yes... Herding sheep is easy... Generally people on the left are people who think, and act, for themselves. They're more like cats that way. Try herding cats sometime...

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#10)
    by BigTex on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:27:51 AM EST
    Wholly lacking in merit factually and legally.
    And victorious. Time and time again. Then again, perhaps the quote is flawed, and not the strategy it decries. People like Charley spew venom as natural as breathing, but in the end they simply don't see that they do more harm to their own cause than the GOP does. I know this is repeating the same mantra over and over but... The dems will win when they want to win. Right now they would rather fight than win. As soon as they marganilize all the Charlies and their flippant you'll get a say [on abortion] when your water breaks types who would rather be insulting, venomus, and fight than seek common ground the dems will win. Dems will win as soon as they start to engage the Christian vote that carried the day for Bush. Want national healthcare? It's in reach. But to reach the goal, dems will have to cut back on what they envision to gather enough support. They don't because they would rather fight, not accomplish results. Dems will win as soon as they stop trying to force homosexual rights down everyone's throats in one breath and complain
    The only thing they [conservatives] truly care about is forcing their values down everyone Else's throat.
    in the next breath. The dems will win as soon as they start to listen to those who disagree with them and come to common ground. But to do so they have to marginalize the
    There's no reason that a woman should have to risk her life or her health, including her future reproductive health, to deliver a baby that is severely deformed or damaged in some way to satisfy the jerry falwells of the world.
    types. Espically when they know that there are conservatives who will accept a life of the mother exception on abortion. The dems will win as soon as they stop turning on those who want to vote with them but don't for some reason.
    If you allow yourself to be swayed by anything I say or do in this forum, you're clearly a man of little or no conviction. If you think that somehow this proves ras right you're a man of even less intellect. If you vote for hopeless third parties and blame it on me you're rapidly approaching too dumb to live territory.
    Does nothing to help garner more votes for the dems. In short, there is enough room out there for dems to get the win as soon as they want to win. Right now the dems would rather fight. Until that changed the dems do not control their own fate, rather they must wait for reupblican infighting to give them a chance.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#11)
    by Lww on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:34:45 AM EST
    Ras, You really can see the problem in here... The dismissiveness and contempt they show towards anyone who doesn't completely surrender to their beliefs. The condescension in their utterances is just incredible; putting Teddy K. out there attacking someone's integrity? They have to believe we're all a bunch of idiots who enjoy pro-wrestling and listen to Kiss.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#12)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:43:16 AM EST
    BigTex, I will try in the future to keep my cool as well as you do. Well said. I see the Charlies of the Left - and there are so many that we can't even describe them as "fringe" anymore - as the inevitable result of the unearned self-esteem movement. Their egos are too large for their talent; insistence is all that remains. Their args always amount to the same thing: a naked assertion of status, either by unilaterally declaring their own superiority, by denigrating others, or both. One cannot change their minds with argument, because they are not really arguing. Their sole assertion is on behalf of their ego and if you make a good counter-arg, they merely resent you all the more for making them look bad. I really can't see the Dems reforming internally as long as they have so many of these sorts of people. They're gonna have to split into two parties, the sooner the better, and isolate the malignant narcissists off to where they won't do so much damage. The R's win these days mostly by default, and it's not healthy, long-term, that there be only one realistic choice for voters. I hope a new party, whatever its name, can arise soon to offer itself as an alternative. That would be a very good thing.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:52:40 AM EST
    LWW, If you don't "surrender" to our beliefs??? What kind of whining, empty crap is that? Change your diaper, bud. Surrender to our beliefs. Oh my lord. If that's what you really think liberals want you to do, well, then I guess no one's doing much communicating on either side. Why not say we want you to tattoo a hammer and sickle on your forehead? How about this: we simply all make a concerted effort to do better. To be better. Citizens, employers and employees, trading partners, friends, family members. Be better. There's a ideal I think crosses all political paradigms and roadblocks.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#14)
    by roy on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:06:33 AM EST
    Dems have focused on coordination and getting the message out for a while now, and it doesn't seem to be working. Either you're incapable of achieving these goals, or these goals aren't sufficient to get enough people voting your way. I see two ways for Dems to regain power: 1: Make the Republicans look so bad that voters abandon them in disgust. Real proof of widespread, coordinated election fraud would do it. Proof that Bush knowingly commited a felony with his warrantless wiretaps might do it. Campaign finance issues won't do it, Republican voters consider those to just be technicalities. 2: Abandon some dearly loved ideals. I don't mean pay lip service to centrists, I mean accept defeat on a few major battles. Bonus points if you give up something where you advocate change. Become a pro-gun party, or an anti-gay party. And if you become a pro-life party, it's not like the pro-choice voters have anywhere to go.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:16:01 AM EST
    LWW says to Ras: You really can see the problem in here... The dismissiveness and contempt they show... The condescension in their utterances is just incredible Ras responds with:
    I see the Charlies of the Left ... as the inevitable result of the unearned self-esteem movement. Their egos are too large for their talent; insistence is all that remains. naked assertion of status, either by unilaterally declaring their own superiority Their sole assertion is on behalf of their ego
    LWW, you mentioned dismissiveness, contempt and condescension?? Self-examination and self-awareness might be some things to consider... since they seem to be sadly lacking on the right...

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#16)
    by glanton on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:16:49 AM EST
    Dems will win as soon as they stop trying to force homosexual rights down everyone's throats
    This is the same kind of rhetoric you heard about African-Americans in the South in th 1960s. It's also the kind of resentful, self-righteous thinking that leads to things like Laramie. Oh well, the more things change..... But at least Tex is "polite" about it! It amazes me how there are still people, in 2006 as opposed to 1649, who feel that they are being tyrannized or having something shoved down their throats, whenever equal protection under the law and equal rights are accorded to other people. Very strange.
    Espically when they know that there are conservatives who will accept a life of the mother exception on abortion.
    Since this declamation arrives in response to the "partial birth abortion" fiasco, Tex, I ask you: if you people are all so concerned about the health of the mother, then why didn't you put a clear provision in your "partial birth abortion" bill, one that spoke clearly to the health of the mother? Oh, but wait! "Partial birth abortions" don't happen unless the mother's health is at stake anyway! (go ahead, bring out the O'Reilly Talking Points with the comic book women who abort at 8 months because of emotional problems. When you get that crap out of your system then maybe you can aspire to reality, and adult conversation). I'm happy for you that you have bamboozled so many people on this Forum, Tex, with your affect of reasonableness and politness, beneath which lurks a rather radical social issues agenda that is anything but friendly and fuzzy and nice. All you Righties can spare us the advice. Especially since you fail to realize that more than half of the regulars who post here don't trust the Democratic Party that much more than they do the GOP. Maybe one day, Tex and ras and "et al" on the Right, maybe one day it will be YOUR rights, YOUR liberties at stake. That, sadly, is the only circumstance under which such people value Rights.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#17)
    by Lww on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:19:25 AM EST
    Dadler, "Be better?" That's what liberals want? I guess on the flip side conservatives want us to be more evil? The rhetoric being bandied about by the "liberals" is hardly making us "better." Go look at the minutes of the past two Clinton appointees to the SCOTUS. Look at the deference accorded these folks. Look at the votes these nominees received. Better, my ass. If what happened this week is better to you, you're sorrier than I thought.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:22:48 AM EST
    Pathetic. What I really find fascinating is after saying that I've been voting for third parties for years, I'm told that I vote for "reptiles" and, apparently support Bush. I'm told it's my fault I don't vote Democrat, because I lack conviction, not because I've learned to judge a political party by the behavior of it's members. Here's a hint, guys - the key to winning elections is to persuade voters that you are correct, not sneer at them in contempt and call them names. Bah. Maybe someday I'll find a left wing site that doesn't resort to name calling, smears by association and intimidation in the name "of thinking for yourself"; but apparently not today.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:23:34 AM EST
    LWW: Better, my ass. If what happened this week is better to you, you're sorrier than I thought.
    The dismissiveness and contempt they show... The condescension in their utterances is just incredible
    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:24:15 AM EST
    These kukluxchristians are truly the scum of the earth. Hey, charlie - quick question: how many klansmen are in congress right now? Which party to they belong to? Your hypocrisy is astounding.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:46:07 AM EST
    LWW, Did I not say "Be Better" crosses all political lines? Why you assumed I was calling conservatives evil, I have no idea. Clinton, for all his faults and f'ups nominated people much less to the political left than Alito is to the right. Just my opinion. Clinton was no rabid lefty to me, he was a moderate corporate democrat, like most dems, like many conservatives (though not the Bush wing of the party), and he was much more moderate in his nominees. Why ELSE would they have been confirmed during all the Clinton madness? Because the Republicans played fair with Clinton? Hardly. And dems have NO power here, really, so ignore them until he's on the court. I think it'll help you chill out a little. Peace, my fellow free American.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:48:31 AM EST
    The midterms will tell. If the Dems can’t get some traction on corruption, civil liberties, the budget; then yes, FUBAR. And it’s pretty weak to blame Republic savvy and the so-called ‘liberal media’. It seems to me that Dean and Pelosi are MIA, and you know, for every Robertson and Gilchrist the left seems to come up with a Bellefonte or Churchill just as shrill.
    “…getting stuck with Alito is because we have a Republican president who promised the radical right his judicial picks in order to get re-elected.â€
    It’s not the base that gets you re-elected. Perhaps it’s the base that may win a given candidate the nomination, but an incumbent is always going to get all of her base votes. After all, the base are the folks that turn out every election cycle and punch a straight ticket. The Republicans and Democrats are fighting over the fence sitters. You don’t court these folks with ‘radical’ judicial appointments or by branding the party with hot button social issues, i.e. Democrats, the pro-abortion party. The Democratic party of Clinton or Bayh has a shot, the party of Kerry or Feingold and you folks are sunk, again.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#23)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:11:48 PM EST
    Michael, Maybe someday I'll find a left wing site that doesn't resort to name calling, smears by association and intimidation in the name "of thinking for yourself"; but apparently not today. There aren't any non-condescending true Leftie sites that I can think of (maybe Crooked Timber? Not as bad as the rest, at least). With the collapse of socialism worldwide its intellectual inferiority has been clearly exposed. But its emotional appeal - that its practitioners are inherently superior - remains. Tell the freshly-defeated that they're really superior and you can always find an audience. Tell them it's someone else's fault and your audience will grow even further. That's why, I think, every time a top-heavy, centralist philosophy fails, a new one arises: communism, fascism, Islamism. Decentralization is simply a better way to run a modern society, so the centralists are gonna fail everytime, but there's always another. There's always another cuz some people just plain want a stable pecking order; it takes away the pressure of a meritocracy. Never underestimate how much pressure a meritocracy puts on status-conscious people, esp those whose reach exceeds their grasp. This is why they want rights to be based on group membership, rather than by the individual. Less pressure there: if things don't go well, misery will have company and they can make excuses together and validate each other's complaints. In a meritocratic world, such egotists will usually be passed by others. Indeed, they probably will be, and since status is relative, their own will drop, so they instinctively oppose anything that bespeaks of mobility and/or consequences. It's all about protecting their status. If they can't improve themselves, they have to hold others back. Wanna make such people angry, as in real, deep-down angry? Demote 'em, then watch the fireworks. Socialists have, as a group (which is important to them), been demoted in the eyes of society and they're mad as hell about it. They can either admit they were wrong (don't hold your breath) or concoct increasingly wild-eyed reasons to blame the other. It's not going away soon, either, because they have created cocoons of excuses that keep them from modifying their failed strategies. The cycle is self-reinforcing. The only way the D's recover is to ditch the Angry Left. I think such a split is coming, but I expect the Normals to form the new party, not the Angries. The Angries desperately need the Dem brand name and the vote-by-rote crowd that comes with it. They'll eventually force out the Normals, I expect, and the remaining Angry Dems will then go the way of the Whigs, but it's all still kinda up in the air, so we'll have to wait & see.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:21:36 PM EST
    Ras, Here's a little thought experiment that may help clear up some misunderstandings. Read what you wrote above, but replace references to socialists, socialism, dems, etc. with reference to bushco, religious right, etc.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:30:51 PM EST
    Michael Heinz, Stick around, experience more than a couple of heated missives, this site is worth it. Just express yourself. We all need more of it, even if it results in a few rhetorical slings and arrows in return. Ras, As for socialism collapsing worldwide, how about the rise of those capitalist dictatorships? Those boys can play some ball.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#26)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:31:25 PM EST
    Edger, An excellent point. I do that all the time, actually. But it never fits: the Right is not nearly so hierarchical nor so angry as the Left. There are elements of each, but the scale is quite different. Remember, I'm from Canada: one had to find a path such as mine on one's own, and by bucking trends, not following them, up here. I didn't reason from a conclusion, which you can tell cuz I didn't start where I finished. That said, it's interesting to see how many others co-evolved their thinking in the same way up here, and even moreso now in the younger generations.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#27)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:35:52 PM EST
    Edger, One other note: capitalism and classical liberalism have never collapsed. Quite the opposite: they work as well as ever when tried. Modern liberalism is almost the opposite of classical now. And conservatism, that defender of the status quo (well, by def'n) is now defending classical liberalism. In essence, libs and conservatives are largely the opposite of what they were, say, a coupla generations ago. The transformation is not 100% yet, but it's getting there.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#28)
    by Lora on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:42:21 PM EST
    In the run-up to the Iraq war, when Bush was still saying that we would allow the diplomatic process to run its course and that we hadn't decided to invade, my nephew who works in D.C and has contacts in the government, told us, "It's a done deal. There's no question. We're definitely going to be in Iraq." This is what I feel like now. All the arguments about how the dems don't have their act together and all they need to do to win votes, is about as real as the chance we gave Saddam to "come clean" about his "WMD's." Again, unless we insist on full accountability and transparency in our election process (and who in their un-brainwashed right mind wouldn't want this?) the election is a done deal. The dems have lost.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:42:41 PM EST
    Ras: But it never fits. No? Your own words...
    they have created cocoons of excuses that keep them from modifying their failed strategies. The cycle is self-reinforcing.
    ...are one of the most succinct and clear descriptions of the bush administration I've seen.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#30)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 12:57:00 PM EST
    Lora, 1. Don't be melodramatic about "stolen elections." When you lose, get over it. 2. That said, if you press your larger case - and it's a fair one - that paperless voting is too open to future abuse, you can win. You'll lose if you politicize it by saying that previous elections were stolen. Stick to the real arg about potential danger and you can probably get a victory. 3. If you want full credibility, couple your requests with requests for a more verifiable registration process. A fraudulent vote that cancels out a real one is just as much a problem as denying or shredding the real one in the first place. And right now there appears to be much more registration abuse than any other kind. You'll need bipartisan support for the changes you want. That means you'll have to address all abuses, those that hurt the Dems, and those that help them, too. If you make it a partisan issue instead, you'll turn it into a vanity platform and little more.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#31)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 01:06:16 PM EST
    I must say that except for the occasional comment by Charlie most of the lefties (I mean this is a lefty sight after all) on this sight are quite polite no matter how much I disagree with them. I enjoy the banter much more then talking to myself on right wing sites so I keep coming back. Thanks TL. But as for Tex, and others they are right. It's not the messenger but the message. Politics is so simple that it defies beleif that democrats haven't figured it out. Look at the freaking map from the elections. The U.S.A is a red courntry with spots of blue. People living in cities vote democratic people living in "fly over" country vote republican. As a whole the country is leaning centrist republican. Therefore a right wing/centrist message wins over a leftwing/centrist message. Becoming more leftwing and finding a way to express yourself better will minimize the left more. Not bring it to power. That being said politics like life is cyclical. One day the american people wil shift power back, but for now it appears to be far off in the future if Reid, Pelosi and Hillary are the best the left has to offer.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#32)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 01:14:54 PM EST
    Slado, Tex said it well: do the Dems wanna fight, or do they wanna win? Right now, for reasons given, I think too many of them enjoy hurling the insults more than they'd enjoy winning power. Sure, they'd like to do both, but they have to choose, and their choice so far is clear. It's not entirely bad in the short-term as each party gets what it wants. R's get power, D's get to pose. But longer-term, a structural counterweight to the R's is gonna be needed. The Dem party really needs to shoo their Loonies out the door.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    Slado, It's not the messenger but the message. I disagree - the messenger often is the message. In this media saturated world, why would the average voter waste time trying get past shrill demagoguery to find out whether or not there's any substance behind it? Who wants to waste time listening to some jerk berate them?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#34)
    by BigTex on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 02:21:55 PM EST
    Tex, I ask you: if you people are all so concerned about the health of the mother, then why didn't you put a clear provision in your "partial birth abortion" bill, one that spoke clearly to the health of the mother?
    Glanton - IIRC, the vagueness upon which the last pertial birth abortion ban was struck down, 5-4 not the usual 6-3, was vagueness of what the act made illegal, not what health of the mother means. The hang up isn't with the protection of the mother, but rather with the technalicies of types of abortion. A good law would be it is illegal to have an abortion past viability. An exception to this section is if a doctor declares that the abortion is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother. Would you find such a law acceptable?
    It's also the kind of resentful, self-righteous thinking that leads to things like Laramie.
    No, it's not. In order to have a Laramie, you need someone who is willing to engage in violent behavior, who sees the cost of life as less imortant than the end goal. The right isn't made up of Eric Roudolph, Tim McVeighs, and those who perpurtrated Learmie. That is a small segment of the right, one that needs to be disavowed. As far as homosexuality goes
    whenever equal protection under the law and equal rights are accorded to other people. Very strange.
    If this were solely about equal protection you would make a good point. However, this is not about equal protection. Even here in Texas, homosexuals have equal protection on everything except for marriage via contract (K) law. They can K who makes medical decisions. They can K their property after death. They can K cohabitation agreements that give them the same rights as married couples cohabitating together. They can K anything they want. What they can't have is marriage. Yet they continue to fight. Do I oppose that? Yes. But bear in mind I also take the extreme minority position that the state should not have any say in marriage, homosexual or heterosexual. If prop 2 had been to eliminate all secular marriages then I'd have been in the minority voting for it. Marriage is a religious matter. If homosexuals can find a church to marry them, great, no objections. You say maybe one day my rights will be in danger. Perhaps you are right. But the underlying assumption that I fight for no civil rights is not valid. I've been on record here against sex offenders having to register. I've oppose the different rules of evidence relating to admissable evidence for sex offenders. I've said that all voting should be done by optical scan so there is a paper trail that is not succeptable to hacking. I support shaming sentences because they are a lesser impact on liberty interest than locking someone up. I support a form of nationalized health care. I would make driving a right not a privilege. I'm not the boogey-man in sheep's clothing you assert me to be Glanton. The main difference in what I am and what you suggest I am, is that I will take what the other side is willing to give and come to compromise that way. It is a symbotic measure. Both sides get some of what they want. I don't try to force my agenda on anyone, rather I find support for the agenda and then seek to have it enacted with majority support. At the end of the day have I gotten all of what I want? No. But you know what? It doesn't matter, common ground was found and progress was made. Some change for the better is better than no change at all. That is the lesson the dems need to learn. You have conservatives out there who will work with whomever is willing to work with them. In the end the cooperation will lead to the betterment of all. The republicans only do a little bit of this, but the dems do near zero. That's why the dems will lose in the short term, and why the elections will be close. People don't like either party, but a small majority sees the GOP as the lesser of the two evils. As long as they seek more common ground than the dems, the pattern will not change.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#35)
    by Lora on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 02:35:04 PM EST
    ras, Although I think there is plenty of back-up to make a good case to at least seriously entertain the theory of past stolen elections, I'm willing to drop that particular issue to insure that the next set of elections accurately reflect the will of the people. I have always maintained that the issue of fair and honest elections is a bipartisan issue. All aspects of our voting system need careful examination and many need serious overhaul. I don't disagree that fraudulent registrations are an issue and need to be dealt with. Also, de-registering bona fide voters, disallowing perfectly legitimate registrations of new voters, appropriate guidelines for provisional ballots, voter intimidation, access to voting machines, access for voters with disabilities, proper oversight of voting machines, security of all voting equipment and materials, proper training of poll workers, paper ballots that are (preferably) hand-counted or (as a bare minimum) properly audited as a check against the electronic machines, vote totals for every machine, every precinct, and every county, and transparency of the whole process, for a start.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 02:48:48 PM EST
    Actually, omitting many posts by TCris, this site is pretty reasonable. Which is not to say that I agree with it, but the posts are devoid of swearing, and are nearly always posted in a reasonable tone. Which is why you see non-left commenters coming back - we don't get overwhelmed by trolls. As opposed to, say, Kos and Atrios, who vent like they are in 7th grade. The fact that they are the two biggest left side sites explains a lot about recent Democratic failure - non-partisans (most people) don't like seeing bile filled commentary, regardless of the politics behind the bile. If the left aims to convince people to vote its way, there's a need for more commentators like TL, and fewer like Atrios and Kos.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:05:19 PM EST
    Ras spews...
    "1. The Left needs to..."
    Here's one thing I'm quite sure "The Left" needs to do: Not take advice from a right wing ideologue. As for what "The Left" needs to do: Individuals with differing shades of progressive values need to stay true to those values. If someone tells you to compromise and suppress those values, you should ignore them and continue to tell people what you believe. When you go to vote (or abstain), you should pick the person you feel most comfortable with and not be pressured into choosing someone you don't like. Now, we can all debate what "Democratic Politicians" should do. But one thing is for sure, with the exception of a handful of Federal Democrats, "The Left" is a grossly exaggerated label to affix to politicians like Biden, Clinton, and the rest of the War Corporatist clan making excuses for Neoliberalism and Neoconservatives working to stuff the pockets of American executives. Anyone that would lump together the values of the progressive masses with the Democratic Politicians in D.C. is either intentionally dishonest or grossly ignorant.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#38)
    by pigwiggle on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:05:51 PM EST
    It’s hard to buy this stolen elections BS. States are charged with the machinations of the federal elections process. It stands to reason that a Democrat leaning state would, at best, have a completely impartial elections process, and at worst, a Democratic leaning one. If not, then the question becomes; are Democrats so incompetent as to allow the elections process to be high jacked in those states where they compose a majority? Dubious.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 03:31:56 PM EST
    Which is why you see non-left commenters coming back - we don't get overwhelmed by trolls.
    I just spent several minutes reading this entire thread: a thread overwhelmed by Conservative posts and viewpoints. JR here talks about how "reasonable" this forum is. While for the most part I appreciate the topics of focus and detail in Talk Left's posts, I'd just like to point out that the comments section isn't a dialogue. I can count on one hand the times I've read left and right commenters agreeing on much of anything. The fact that Conservatives feel "comfortable" here makes me quite uncomfortable. One thing is for sure, I NEVER feel comfortable reading about the glorious merits of War Corporatism and Corporate profiteering. I may read it, but enjoyment isn't exactly the word I'd use for it. The fact that some feel compelled to applaud the unusual civility speaks volumes about the dismal state of our nation.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#40)
    by Lww on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 05:01:12 PM EST
    Tampa Student, To despise the two-faced money-hungry bastards we have to call congress is as painful to me as I'm sure it is to you. This is what we have. Until we have a viable third party we're all screwed. I think (from some earlier posts) you have a problem with privacy issues. You're a guy too? I can connect the dots. Tell me if I'm wrong. Maybe I'm insensitive, it's your life and I'm sure you have reasons to push your agenda but my interest isn't in my life, it's in the future of this country and the world. Turn on the tube. The talking heads are seriously discussing the impending attack on Iran. I don't care if Gore or Kerry were in office they'd still be talking about it. That's the situation we're in.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#42)
    by Aaron on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:25:15 PM EST
    The best news for the Liberals, Democrats and moderates is that the Republicans and the Republican Party can be countered on to self-destruct whenever left to their own devices. It's just too bad it winds up costing us trillions of dollars and millions of lives every time. The well-established good old boy network and their incessant need to accumulate more power even when they control every branch of the government, not to mention their inability to say no to WAR whenever they have an opportunity to manufacture one, always leads to their eventual implosion. They are in fact their own worst enemy. If not for these factors, the conservative new dawn in America would be all but unchallenged by what has become a consistently neutered Democratic Party. So get ready to throw a party and pop that champagne Liberal Democrats, because the 2006 elections are coming, and the Republicans are sure to lose seats in the House and the Senate. What the Democrats need more than anything is a strong group of moderate storm troopers willing to take the fight to the Republicans at every opportunity. It's known as the Bill Clinton approach, take all their ideas and reshape it into your own, leaving them nothing substantive to build their platform on.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#43)
    by glanton on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 06:36:35 PM EST
    Thanks, Tampa, for putting it so well. Indeeed, one tires greatly of all the pundits on talk radio and television smugly talking about what "the Left" needs to do. Whether its Rush Limbaugh or one of many the GOP apologists on TL makes no difference. So.... Et Al: 1) troglodytes known as 'values voters'; 2) the lemmings who thought the most important thing about the hearings was a woman crying; 3) and those who pimp for the military industrial complex on a routnie basis: The above constitutes a list of people to whom you might more profitably take your 'advice' if you don't want to be seen through/laughed at.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#44)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:00:34 PM EST
    Glanton, No probs. Continue doing what you've been doing, seeing as it's working so well. As I said above, both sides get what they really want. As for 2006: betcha it's either a wash, or a small R gain, at least in the Senate. Not as sure about the House, but prob much the same pattern. If you're gonna do the same thing, why would you expect different results? And when it's over, you can again refuse to do anything different for 2008, as well. I'm sure you'll have lots of theories and excuses as to why the results weren't what you expected and how you was robbed. Change is hard for you, I can see that, but you better get used to it. When the student is ready, the master will appear.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#45)
    by Lww on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:25:22 PM EST
    Where are ya Charlie? Little slip of the tongue there? "We'd also be in a position to do something about Iran if necessary" I guess you want someone else to fight this battle? "We" is who? Israel? The United States? You and TL, closet Zionists that you are, should get one thing straight; you don't fool many with your protests against the war. It all rings hollow and cheap.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 07:53:56 PM EST
    Sorry, Big Tex, but I don't know what type of Republican you are referring to, but not many of them like that exist on my planet. It is always the Democrats who have done most of the compromising. Compare the level of civility in congress today to what existed when it was under Dem control. Things are much worse now. The Republicans rule congress with an arrogance and iron fist unseen since the days of Joe Cannon 100 years ago.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:00:28 PM EST
    If law enforcement holds a seminar about how to reduce crime, do they ask criminals for their opinions? So why are all you right wingers posting in this thread!? Do you think your opinions matter?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:00:30 PM EST
    It is interesting that Ras feels it is necessary to give us advice, since he obviously wishes for nothing more than the complete demise of the left. This is painfully clear, given his fondness for long-winded libertarian/Ayn Randian bromides. Also, perhaps as a Canadian, Ras doesn't realize that the Democratic party is NOT a socialist party. It is a party that recogizes that the type of laizzes-faire, winner-take-all capitalism that he favors is not tenable. It supports a kinder, gentler form of capitalism, but it is still unmistakably capitalism. Someone who looks at the world in the radical, black and white fashion that Ras does would not be capable of seeing this.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:06:15 PM EST
    It makes no sense to compare the hearings of Clinton's SCOTUS nominees to the way Alito has been treated. Clinton's nominees were very honest, and did not try to avoid answering questions the way Alito did. I agree the Dems may have gone overboard on the CAP and the Vanguard issue, but they had every right to ask him tough questions about his view of presidential power. His answers were to vague to be acceptable.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:12:34 PM EST
    cymro writes:
    If law enforcement holds a seminar about how to reduce crime, do they ask criminals for their opinions?
    Snce you are not a criminal, why do you care? ;-)

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#52)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:17:37 PM EST
    Mark, When you learn to speak in a civil tongue, I will answer your q's. Wanna try again?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:23:25 PM EST
    I thought I was quite civil. I didn't call you names. However, I do think it is kind of, well, creepy, for you to be lurking around a website you obviously despise. Note that I said your BEHAVIOR is creepy; I didn't call you creep. I know the right-wing quite well, and I realize they have a fondness for this kind of behavior. But it's still creepy.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#54)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:27:40 PM EST
    Mark, But all I vant is your b-l-o-o-d?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#55)
    by Lww on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:31:09 PM EST
    Mark. "I know the right wing quite well." I'm watchin "the Blackboard Jungle" surfin,playing solitaire, IMn' and waitin for the coward Charlie to get back.... It's not that hard to keep an eye on this place

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:35:10 PM EST
    Perhaps that "coward" Charlie has a real life, and maybe goes outside and talks to people?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#57)
    by Lww on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:40:04 PM EST
    God help those unfortunate folks. "Charlie" will probably tell em about his 15 yr old bride. What a goof.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#58)
    by ras on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:41:03 PM EST
    Mark, Centralization is the norm for most govts. It creeps along (to use your word), hopefully punctuated by intense, if brief, bursts of decentralization. Such is human nature. We backslide, only to, if all goes well, periodically snap out of it and clean up most of our bad habits ... before backsliding again. Village instincts don't always mesh with modern society, but it's the latter that supports the population numbers, so adapt we must. Bush has centralized more than I'd like in some areas, but decentralized in others (e.g. taxes. e.g. red tape). Not ideal, but a lot better than what the Dems propose, and than they did under, for ex, Clinton. I am seriously hard-pressed to think of any serious decentralization implemented under the Lefter party of the day, in your country or in mine. Admittedly, it's easier to track that in Canada where the powers are not as separated as they are in the US (e.g. did Clinton or Gingrich balance the US budget), but the patterm seems pretty steady. Those punctuated burst seem to come from the Righters, if not exclusively (tho I can't think of a counter-example at the moment), then largely.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 08:47:34 PM EST
    As someone on the left, decentralization is not the end all and be all to me that it is to you. However, your comments about Clinton, are, I think, not correct. The federal government was smaller under Clinton than it has been under Bush. You can give credit to the GOP congress if you want, but if the Republicans are so good in this area, you would expect the ALL GOP government that we have today to whittle gov down to size, circa-1929. Of course, that hasn't happened.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 10:44:07 PM EST
    PPJ:
    Since you are not a criminal, why do you care? ;-)
    My point exactly. As a RW poster, if you thought about it for a momemnt, you would realize that we do not care about your opinions on this subject. So why post? Is it because you do not think before posting?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#61)
    by roy on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:19:45 PM EST
    Cymro, Hoping to get more people to vote your way by ignoring people who don't already vote your way?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 13, 2006 at 11:43:56 PM EST
    roy, I am not stupid enough to listen to "advice" from right wingers who have previously posted opinions diametrically opposed to everything I believe in. Do you think they really want to help us to defeat the ugly, selfish, elitist right wing ideals that they are forever expounding here?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 05:01:03 AM EST
    cymro - Since you don't own the blog I see no reason to answer your question. Instead, I will ask you a question. Why do you think it is your businss? But since I am in a great mood this morning... I am a registered independent and a social liberal. I have routinely supported national health care, a woman's right to choose, gay rights, etc. I am also for a strong national defense. If you lose the country and the culture you have nothing. Among voters I am very much in the majority when compared to the anti-war crowd. That's why you should listen to me.... if you want to win elections and change some problems in the country. BTW - There is nothing new in the above comments. I have posted them time and again.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#64)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 06:49:26 AM EST
    Listening to the wrong wingers about what to do about the Dem Party makes about as much sense as the chickens listening to a talk on old age from Frank Perdue

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 11:37:37 AM EST
    charlienolinks wrote:
    Gee, lucky us. And you've voted Democratic in Federal Elections exactly how many times in the last Century?
    More than I should have.
    Who isn't?
    Do you have a mirror? BTW - After thinking it over, and understanding that you are a typical Left wing Demo now days.... Please, please, don't take my advice.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#66)
    by BigTex on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 12:26:54 PM EST
    But, by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant, sport.
    Wow. All I can say is wow. You asked
    What is your objection to a precisely-written exception for the health of the mother, and clearly we have your answer. You wacks don't give a damn about mother or child. Ya just want the issue.
    Yet I ahve already answered
    A good law would be it is illegal to have an abortion past viability. An exception to this section is if a doctor declares that the abortion is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.
    You say
    Wrong again, tox. It's [marriage]a civil matter. If you get married in a Church, it still gets recorded by the Government.
    Yet I have already said
    I also take the extreme minority position that the state should not have any say in marriage, homosexual or heterosexual.
    Should not have is an acknowledgement that they do have.
    The right certainly does seem to be comprised of an inordinately high percentage of functionally illiterate knuckleheads, though.
    Apparantly we are more sophisticated than you give us credit for, see should not have as an example.
    They can K anything they want. What they can't have is marriage. Yet they continue to fight.
    Quote = Tex
    The nerve of some people. They've got a lot of nerve demanding the same rights as everyone else. Where do they get off!
    Quote = Charley See, this goes back to the should not have argument. The state should not be involved in the matter, and that is where the fight comes from. Also, coming from one who complains of selective quotation, you somehow forgot to add this bit of my quote
    If homosexuals can find a church to marry them, great, no objections.
    So perhaps it is equal protection I support, but that the version of protection to all is different. Then again, maybe I'm not smart enough to make that argument, needing adult basic education and all.
    That's a good one, tox. That'll have 'em rollin' in the aisles.
    Yup, and voting together across the ailsed too.
    But, by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant, sport.


    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#67)
    by swingvote on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 03:59:17 PM EST
    I don't know about a broken triangle, but certain members of "the left" are sure starting to sound like a broken record. I guess that's what happens when your every utterance is cut and pasted from someone's liberal blog or handouts from MoveOn.org. Still, one could wish for more.

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 04:04:16 PM EST
    JP: ...sure starting to sound like a broken record. What part of your comment is new or different?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    charlenolinks wrote:
    Name a good idea in the last 100 years and it's a safe bet that the reptiles were against it.
    Hmmm, that, to use a sports cliche you love so well....is a hanging curve ball... Now watch it go over the fence... Can you say....ooops.. Home Run for the Old Guy!?? Medicare Rx Insurance. Before January 1 I was paying about $320 a month and some hellish co-pays. I am now paying around $100 a month and my co-pay for 4 scripts last Saturday was ZERO. BTW - No deductible and no "doughnut hole." For that I can thank Bush and the Repubs. The Demos, including Kennedy, fought it tooth and toenail. Tell me, charlie. Why was this?

    Re: The Left As a Broken Triangle (none / 0) (#70)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 14, 2006 at 06:14:03 PM EST
    Thanks to all for participating in this thread. Comments are maxed out, they are being closed.

    The Left As a Broken Triangle | 68 comments (68 topical)