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EU Demands Answers

by TChris

The European Union, peeved to learn that some European countries (wittingly or otherwise) may be hosting secret prisons that warehouse detainees who have been captured or kidnapped by the Bush administration, has asked the president to reveal information about those prisons. The State Department has promised to respond to the best of its ability, a sure sign that it won’t provide meaningful answers.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack would not answer questions about whether the sites exist or whether the CIA used European airports and airspace to transport suspects. He also would not say whether the U.S. response to the Europeans will definitively answer those questions, nor whether the U.S. response will be made public.

The questions may be posed directly to Condoleezza Rice as she jets aroud Europe next week, “including a stop in Romania, which is one of the nations identified by Human Rights Watch as a likely site of a secret detention camp.”

"I think as Dr. Rice goes round European capitals, she may find a number of embarrassing questions," said Sir Menzies Campbell, foreign affairs spokesman for Britain's rival Liberal Democrat party. … "If, in fact, people are being moved from a jurisdiction where torture is illegal to a jurisdiction where torture is permissible, that seems to me to be wholly contrary to international law," Campbell added. "If we are allowing facilities for aircraft carrying out these actions, we are at the very least facilitating and we may even be complicit in it."

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    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    "The European Union, peeved to learn that some European countries (wittingly or otherwise) may be hosting secret prisons that warehouse detainees who have been captured or kidnapped by the Bush administration, has asked the president to reveal information about those prisons. The State Department has promised to respond to the best of its ability, a sure sign that it won’t provide meaningful answers." Yeah, that's ornery of them. I won't hold my breath for signs of a spine vis-a-vis terror against Israel, or vis-a-vis Iran.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Why does the EU love terrorists?

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    I know nothing terrifies me more than the EU giving the US the evil-eye. What are they going to do raise the price on Trappist Ale? Deny us thier approval? The EU is a joke and will never become what its creators envisioned. Too many cultures and too little space. Give them fifty years and they'll raze the place over some petty disagreement and expect someone else to come in and clean up after thier most recent tantrum. The EU's ire...phsst.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    I love the smell of Europhobia in the morning.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#5)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    If the Euro wasn't blowing the dollar out of the water, I would almost believe you Jimcee...

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Big knocks on the EU, but no mention of the secret prison issue itself. Europeans were talking to task the US Administration for its continuing disregard for national sovereignty; something the US authorities should be looking to do for itself. In some respects Jimcee the EU is a joke. However, take stock of the wars that have wracked Europe over the Centuries and then look at the political and social topography today. Expanding numbers of European countries are bound into a political structure that make the likelihood of war in Western and Central Europe very remote. The EU has created the foundations of a pan-European consensus on trade, social justice and partial political agreement, which, to my mind, makes the EU very much a success. I suggest you spend less time panning Europeans and look more towards prosecuting these security issues with your own political class. What will hasten the decline of the US as a world authority is not the act of terrorists, but the response to terrorism itself. You moral authority is being seriously undermined by the actions currently taken again real and imaginary enemies of the State. Responding to outrage with outrage is no solution to your long-term security. It corrodes you moral standing in the world and increasingly limits your licence to influence. Sure, you can continue to flex military muscle, but eventually this coercive option will go too. All this would be sad. I still admire the US, but increasingly find myself admiring what was and not what is.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Perhaps its just me but wouldn't telling all about secret detention camps kind of defeat the purpose of them?

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Johnny - Good question. Why do they? StuartJ writes:
    It corrodes you moral standing in the world and increasingly limits your licence to influence.
    We pled for help in the UN and France and Germany would not help. At the point anything that Europe had to trade in return for cooperation from us became moot. Think of this. If the UN had united behind us perhaps Saddam would have provided enough additional information to stop the forth coming invasion. Perhaps Saddam would have taken the offer to resign and leave the country with his life and family. But, it did not. We now know of their involvement in the Oil for Food scandal, which undoubtedly had great influence on their lack help. So as Sec. Rice tours Europe if someone wants to discuss the issue I hope she smiles, nods and politely says: Mind your own damn business.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Why must our prisons be secret? Something to hide perhaps? I say if detainees are guilty of crimes or acts of war, there should be no shame in imprisoning them. It should be done out in the open for all the world to see. It's good news and good p.r. when terrorists are brought to justice. And if we are upholding international standards of prisoner treatment, there should be no problem with letting human rights inspectors in.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    Darkly – And I would suggest you use a wee bit of common courtesy rather than your usual vulgar attacks if you expect to be taken seriously. And no one has appointed you editor or table captain. Probably because you are incapable of recognizing that since the post is about the strained relationship between the EU and the US, comments about that relationship and one of the acknowledged causes, the Oil for Food scandal are directly on subject since the latter defines one of the motives for their non-cooperation with the US. i.e. Since you didn’t help me, I see no reason to do zip for you. BTW – You write:
    If you think that the US government is justified in violating the national soveriegnty of European countries
    You need to go back and read the article.
    … are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country.


    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    Darkly - Have a bit of time on your hands, eh? TL's comment re wittingly or otherwise does not match up to your claim of:
    If you think that the US government is justified in violating the national soveriegnty of European countries
    The article plainly notes that the countries have knowledge. And again, read the article. It was not referring to the US president.
    The existence and locations of the facilities -- referred to as "black sites" in classified White House, CIA, Justice Department and congressional documents -- are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country.
    Now if the author had written.... “---are known only to the President and a handful of officials in the United States and, usually a few top intelligence officers in each host country.” ...you would have a point. But the author didn’t. Did you say "target rich?" I am LOL. My mood is so good I think a good bottle from the palatial retirement compound’s excellent wine cellar is in order. And you may make as many other inaccurate claims as you desire. Just don't be surprised when I point them out. And if the EU/UN had cooperated to start with, the strains would not exist, or perhaps the prisons, if they actually do exist, so I again note you are incapable of being editor or table captain. And, as usual, after a couple of hundred words of complaint and attack you close by calling me a bully, etc. Really, Darkly. Can you do no better?

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    Gee, in a 'global economy' I would think one has to listen to one's 'global neighbors.' Besides, secret torture camps are wrong, wasn't that how NATO, the UN, and America came into being? Apparently 'might makes right' is now the US version of 'democracy.'

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    What the EU demands is of little concern to me. I, as an American citizen, demand to know what my govt. is up to.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimcee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Man you guys are so funny. I was being sarcastic but I guess sarcasm is lost in the written word. Johnny, the Euro is less strong than one might imagine. It creates an extra value to American produced goods overseas. It also makes the US an attractive investment for Europoeans. Simple economics. Mar, Europhobia? You've got to be kidding! I go visit my friends there as often as possible and have always had a good time. StuartJ, You have got to be one of the most sanctomonius people I have ever been lectured by. Lighten up, it helps the perspective a little. You are so reflexively offended it must be hard to be you. To sum up, The Euro is stable, yippee. Next time I'm in Europe I'll be oh-so-aware of my Europhobia and act accordingly. My friends in Hamburg will laugh at your petit psycho-analysis. And please try to have a sense of humour it makes life a bit easier. Oh and worried about that European peevishness.....Phssst.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Guess there's nothing like secret torture prisons to bring out the tongue in cheek comments from wingnuts. Sigh.

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    We pled for help in the UN and France and Germany would not help.
    So you want to punish them for correctly guessing that Bush and the Neocons were idiots?

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Ernesto - Just in case you didn't read before commenting, I noted that if they had supported us the war may never have happened. Instead they put self interest above helping a friend, and the rest is history. Is there any wonder Europe has a history of mistakes and wars unmatched in the world?

    Re: EU Demands Answers (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    Yes, 'Europe' has made several mistakes throughout history. But it's unfair to dump all the countries of Europe into one category. Seems like the US has made more 'mistakes' in the past decade than any individual European nation in the past 100 years.