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Why is Paris Burning?

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Mon Nov 07, 2005 at 05:56:06 PM EST
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Conservatives would have you believe that the riots in Paris are the work of an organized Islamic group. Not so, says a leading French journalist, as reported by Doug Ireland:

"That's not true -- this isn't being organized by the Islamist fundamentalists, as Sarkozy is implying to scare people. Sure, kids in neighborhoods are using their cellphones and text messages to warn each other where the cops are coming so they can move and pick other targets for their arson. But the rebellion is spreading across the country because the youth have a sense of solidarity with each other that comes from watching television -- they imitate what they're seeing, they have experienced themselves the same racist police abuse that helped spark the riots, and they sense themselves targeted by Sarkozy's inflammatory rhetoric.

The rebellion is spreading spontaneously -- driven especially by racist police conduct that is the daily lot of these youths. It's incredible the level of police racism -- these young are arrested or controlled by the police, shaken down, pushed around, and have their papers checked simply because they have dark sins, and the police are verbally brutal, calling them 'bougnoules' [a racist insult, something like the American "towel-heads", only worse], 'dirty Arabs' and more. The police bark, 'Lower your eyes! Lower your eyes!' as if they had no right even to look a policeman in the face. It's utterly dehumanizing. No wonder these kids feel so divorced from authority."

Ireland says Sarkozy, a staunch law and order type who wants to replace Chirac as for President of France, is a meglomaniac whose comments inflamed the youth:

But Sarkozy (left) only poured verbal kerosene on the flames, dismissing the ghetto youth in the most insulting and racist terms and calling for a policy of repression. "Sarko" made headlines with his declarations that he would "karcherise" the ghettos of "la racaille"-- words the U.S. press, with glaring inadequaxcy, has translated to mean "clean" the ghettos of "scum."

But these two words have an infinitely harsher and insulting flavor in French. "Karcher" is the well-known brand name of a system of cleaning surfaces by super-high-pressure sand-blasting or water-blasting that very violently peels away the outer skin of encrusted dirt -- like pigeon-sh*t -- even at the risk of damaging what's underneath. To apply this term to young human beings and proffer it as a strategy is a verbally fascist insult and, as a policy proposed by an Interior Minister, is about as close as one can get to hollering "ethnic cleansing" without actually saying so. It implies raw police power and force used very aggressively, with little regard for human rights.

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    Why is Paris Burning? | 54 comments (54 topical)
    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#13)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    Tampa, You insist, but do not argue, which I guess makes my point for me. If the root cause is economic, then Fance's socialist economy is to blame, no way around that. If the root case is social, then France's multi-culti approach doesn't work. Also no way around that. This is a tough time to be a Lefite, cuz the events in France disprove some key tenets of Leftist philosophy in no uncertain terms. It's gonna spiral down a lot more yet, too (with occasional lulls but they won't last long). You are about to get a real-tme history lesson in the close relationship between socialism and fascism. It will not be easy for you to watch, but keep your eyes open, because it's more important to learn than to be right.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    I suppose the American Great Depression and the race riots of the '60's disprove key tenets of rightist philosophy and capitalism.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#15)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    Mark, The Great Depression was catalyzed by a bond market collapse as, in the days of the gold standard, the overextended govts of the world were in no position to make good on their debt. Bond markets then, as now, were an order of magnitude larger than stock markets (surprised?) and as even just a fraction of that money, sensing the coming probs, moved over to the stock market, it drove it thru the roof. The remaining mania merely rationalized a few reaons other than the real one. The US, as a creditor nation, opted largely to keep its currency good and suffer the contraction. Debtor nations such as Germany did not, resulting in hyperinflation and, er, a few somewhat more serious political problems. As for the race riots, I know of no serious movement on the right (i.e. non-fringe) that wants anything other than racial equality. The days of the kinds of racism seen in the National Socialist Party of Germany, or the Democratic Party of Alabama ("segregation forever") are long gone, at least in the US. France, however....

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    Like I said, a flaw in the capitalist system. And those racist southern Dems became Republicans for obvious reasons.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    BTW, France isn't socialist or multi-cultural, so your entire argument is built on a faulty premise.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#18)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    ras, what "socialist" policy you talking about? france is a capitalist country, just like the u.s. and great britain. a poorly run capitalist country, but capitalist nonetheless. this is nothing new, it's been that way since at least louis XVI, with a brief break for napolean. of course, he wasn't french, and it lasted long enough for him to blow it in russia. been pretty much downhill since. this sarkozy sounds like the village idiot. also nothing new. french government officials have sounded like village idiots for centuries. it's almost a requirement to be one. one solution: round the rioters up, sort out those who are native from immigrants. deport the immigrants back to their home countries, and try the rest, assuming there's evidence they committed crimes. that will address the immediate problem. a long-term solution will be infinitely more complex and difficult. protectionist policies will have to go, just as in the u.s., to make the economy more competative, etc. a better job of integrating immigrants into society at large will also have to be done. of course, the immigrants themselves will have to get off their fat asses, and do some of the heavy lifting too. it won't be pretty or clean, and it won't happen overnight. but then, it didn't get this way overnight.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM EST
    Ras' world of reductive argument. Either it was Socialism, or it was the "multi-cultural approach" of it's society. Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. How about neither? Maybe you're in the mood to paint broad strokes with a small brush, but I haven't seen or read any evidence of "leftist philosophy being re-written". What "leftist philosophy", Ras? The "Socialist" government of France is going to fall because there were riots? We had riots at the WTO - will American Capitalism fall to it's knees as a result? We had riots in L.A. over Rodney King. Was there a race war? Slippery slope fallacy, wow that's two in a row Ras.
    As for the race riots, I know of no serious movement on the right (i.e. non-fringe) that wants anything other than racial equality. The days of the kinds of racism seen in the National Socialist Party of Germany, or the Democratic Party of Alabama ("segregation forever") are long gone, at least in the US.
    How about this Ras. You're EITHER intentionally dishonest OR you're ignorant. Probably a little bit of both, but definitely one of the two. Intentionally dishonest by attempting to downplay the systemic racism that still exists in the South (my back yard, my everyday; at least 2000 miles from you) OR you're speaking without any first hand knowledge of it's continued existence. If you're that wrong about Texas and Alabama, how am I supposed to attribute any credibility to your opinion of the social or economic realities of France? Are you French Canadian? You're entitled to your opinion Ras, regardless of how asinine it is.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Wow, this author has very little to say about the criminal acts of the rioting youth and almost seems to imply their behavior is justified because of the racist actions of some of the police officers. Ok folks, this, rioting that has gone WAY beyond demonstrating, is one of the points that clearly pushes me from my normally "moderate leaning to the left" stance all the way into the "right" neighborhood. I believe the fastest way to stop this type of senseless danger to innocent human lives is to, after several loud and clear warnings, shoot, with real not rubber bullets, the threatening parties. If a kid is holding a Molotov cocktail, he gets shot. Those throwing bricks and rocks at the police, shot! Trying to start a structure fire when the "youth" has no way of knowing if lives will be put in danger, shot! I know the Talkleft crowd won't like it but it always amazes me how much destruction law abiding citizens are willing to allow the police to let continue during a riot. I say, give a few warnings over a PA system that anyone in the area in 10 minutes will be subject to the "riot dispelling squad." This squad does not have the normal batons and shields we have all seen for years but rather simply a gun. In 10 minutes you either leave the area, lay on the ground and stay there or get shot. I believe it would not only solve the riot at hand but future riots as well. Ok, come on, I’m ready.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    One reporter says it and blames "Racist cops" the cops and that's what's picked up on talkleft. (why am I surprised...not) This reporter is sure it's not 36% unemployment in the supposidly enlighted country of France, not failure to assimilate, not radical religious beliefs, but racist cops in 247 of France's cities and towns. I gotta laugh. That's simply and idiotic over simplification.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Shooting into a crowd will turn a riot into a revolution.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    I did not mean shoot into the crowd, but at spicific people who pose a danger to other's lives. Just like the police are authorized to do on any other "non-riot" day. If I'm at the shopping mall and someone is about to through a bottle of buring liquid at me and my wife, I would hope a police officer who witnessed it would put one in his chest.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#5)
    by BigTex on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    While there is probabally an element of soft racism, the bigger reason that France is burning is because of the poorly thought out immigration policy. Some of the rioters in the suburbs of Paris are running 40% unemployment, and there is no significant effort to algamize the immigrents into the fabric of society. For years now there's been the unofficial Muslim controlled areas of the Paris suburbs. This isn't because the French couldn't try to integrate the immigrents into society, but rather because they didn't try to integrate into society. High unemployment leads to desparation... see Gaza as an example... when the kindling is ripe, all it takes is a spark for a flame. France let the area go unattended for too long.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#6)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    The root cause is either socialism's failed economics, or multiculturalism's unworkable naivete. Or both. When push comes to shove, the French will have to decide. Easy call: they'll trash multi-culti in a heartbeat.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#7)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    btw, these are NOT riots. Riots are spontaneous events, not scheduled evening activities. This is an intifada.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Now that the unrest has gone on for 12 days, the left feels a need to shout "look, a monkey!". I'll agree that this didn't start as organized mayhem. After a few days though, various elements started to coordinate things - you don't get uprisings across 300 towns and cities in France without organization. The best I can tell, criminal elements (drug runners) and Islamists started to take advantage of this a few days ago, when the number of fires started to rise (and spread). This started as something akin to the 1960's race riots in the US. It's grown into something else, and at this point, it's anyone's guess where it will end up. The French government seems paralyzed, and their inaction has allowed it to get worse. And worse.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Billie Boy, If Ras and JR are to be believed, then you have a s***load of specific targets to shoot.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    ... none of the press refers to the fact that the groups of youth in revolt also comprise not only Arab and black youth but also many poor white youth who share the same oppressed conditions of unemployment and police repression. It is not the youth that are racist, but French employers and the French state that systematically discriminate against Arab and black youth as well as against white youth living in the same depressed suburbs. That the current revolt takes the backward form of burning and smashing cars and property in these youths’ own neighborhoods expresses the deep frustration and lack of perspective among these most vulnerable layers of the working class. The Socialist Party (PS) and the French Communist Party (PCF) bear the principal responsibility for the complete alienation of these layers of the youth from society. Not only did past “Governments of the Left” introduce the neo-liberal policies now being continued and intensified by the present government of Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin and his deputy Nicolas Sarkozy, but, as the elected municipal officials in these suburbs, they have overseen the destruction of all the social services in these towns, leaving entire sections of workers and youth to their fate.
    After 11 days of clashes between youth and police French government and opposition back intensified repression By Stephane Hugues, 7 November 2005

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    And now over here on "Talk Left", the rabid Conservatives are out in force. Just took an inadvertant dive into the message boards on the History Channel only to find a mini-Powerline sprouting roots. Same bogus garbage there as being posted by the usual suspects here. Ras, the Canadian Neocon spews...
    "The root cause is either socialism's failed economics, or multiculturalism's unworkable naivete."
    Whoops. Either-or fallacy. Argument no longer worthy of further review. Then JR chimes in...
    "The best I can tell, criminal elements (drug runners) and Islamists started to take advantage of this a few days ago, when the number of fires started to rise (and spread)."
    Drug runners and Islamists. Great reduction. Far as you can make out, there JR...from whatever god awful information sources you subscribe to.
    "This started as something akin to the 1960's race riots in the US."
    Nice comparison. You know, that gulag in Guantanamo is similar to Soviet-Era gulags in Siberia - as far as recognition is concerned. Nice comparison, eh? Funny how so much can be said without any direct attribution. I have no opinion about it. The only thing the Conservatives here have a point about is the lack of information from reliable sources available to American readers. I'm inclined to believe that it was a demonstration that escalated into violence as a result of the over zealousness of the police, but I don't state that as fact because I don't know. That's the difference between myself and a Conservative -- I just admitted I didn't know.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    These right-wingers are so rather know-it-all, aren't they? They are just so happy that they can change the subject away from Iraq.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    cpinva writes...
    just as in the u.s., to make the economy more competative, etc. a better job of integrating immigrants into society at large will also have to be done. of course, the immigrants themselves will have to get off their fat asses, and do some of the heavy lifting too.
    There is a recent article in the Economist about this very issue. I take issue with what you've said here - specifically the characterization of immigrants. Neoliberalization benefits large Corporations and not much else. It sucks in more foreign goods and services, but the dollars come right back home to the elite - and the domestic middle class loses jobs. Neoliberalization entrenches the reality of the post-Cold War client-state -- which is at the very heart of extremism in the second world over the past 20 years. Free trade may be inevitable, but the motivating factors aren't competition. Second world economies will never compete with the United States equally so long as American companies dominate foreign commerce. Neoliberalization is driven with the singular purpose of consolidation of power by Military-industrial complexes that have already secured power. Some Democrats have suggested modest reform proposals, which I guess is better than nothing, but won't really address the circumstance. How long does American leadership (private and public sectors) believe it can suck up foreign capital without continuing to draw the ire of it's enemies abroad?

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Let's have a show of hands of commenters who have ever lived in France. The hijacking of the thread was immediate, because the Bush coup is exposed for what it is, any port in a storm. The article pointed out that street riots of this sort are PUBLIC REACTIONS to conditions. They are not plebicites on theories of government any more than a riot after a soccer game is a discourse by the 'proletariat.' The riot in Michigan a month ago because of a KKK rally was not caused by globalization or because the Michiganers are 'surrender monkeys.' RACISM and UNEMPLOYMENT are the universals of riots. When youth feel hated and disenfranchized, and they are broke, they destroy the property of their neighbors. And copycat riotiing spreads shockingly fast, as it has IN EVERY MAJOR CITY IN THE UNITED STATES. For ras and the other wingers to gloat over rioting while their thug president is splattering thousands of innocent families against their living room curtains is beyond disgusting. I puke on you, ras, for how your vile bigotry tries to hide behind philosophy. Vive La France!

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    *handraise I've lived in france, and now live about 10 minutes driving from the border in a region suisse romande. Paul in LA pretty much has it correct. Based on my experience, arabic and african immigrants tend to get much more attention from the police (unwarranted or not). It's the same here as well. I've spent several months trying to help a west african family who've had their documents 'confiscated' by police. They want a lawyer who 'is english because we don't trust the french'. I'm not blaming the police though. It's not an uncommon mindset among the french that if you live in france, you must wholly integrate - religion, language and all. The other side is, of course, economic and to a further extent the organisation of the french working enviroment, but that's an entirely different thread. None of this, in my opinion, means that the youth should be out burning schools and businesses and killing people. The violence and destruction HAS become organised. It got the attention of everyone, but at this point it solves nothing but to make people more angry at immigrants. There is no quick fix, and if the police respond with violence, there will be no happy ending to this problem.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Like Doug Ireland, I also lived in France for many years, albeit at the beginning of the "trente glorieuses." Even then, however, it was evident to me that racism was rampant against the North Africans that were coming into the country to help rebuild it. (What made me crazier than the racism itself, was the constant glee-full fascination the French had with racial strife in the U.S. -- and the total lack of recognition of it fomenting in their own backyard). The posters who dismiss Ireland's thoughtful and knowledgeable column are guilty of deliberate blindness to underlying causes, ignoring history and refusing to learn from the past. While the perpetrators of the violence in France are not to be excused, preventing further unrest in the future is impossible without understanding and attempting to address failed policies of the past. Kinda like the Bush Administration crying "unpatriotic" whenever anyone has tried to understand why 9/11 happened, preferring to repeat their mantra about the perpretrators being criminals who "hate freedom." And where has that gotten us?

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    The mainstream press, be it "left" or "Right", has done their best to falsely turn this story into another "Clash of Civilizations" bit. Without saying as much, they tend to interview people with obviously Arabic names on the scene, and then babble on about the history of Algerian and Tunisian immigration to the area. All one needs to do is read what the interviewees are saying to realize that this has nothing to do with any overarching West-East dilemma. They aren't talking about the death of the West, and their revulsion at the Judeo-Christian liberal democratic norms. They are talking about their revulsion at socioeconomic exclusion. This doesn't have anything to do with civilization: this has to do with Capitalism running buck wild over the human rights of thousands of members of French society. Just listen to the voices of the revolt. Zaid, 20, quoted in the November 4th Independent of London, says: "It's hard to just sit here and watch the rich people driving past in their swanky vehicles. They have everything and we have absolutely nothing." In the November 5th version of the Independent, Kamel, 16, says: "Ever since Sarko came into the government, life has been merde. He treats us like dogs -- well, we'll show him how dogs can react!" More...


    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    et al - Well the usual suspects are making excuses. You can blame the French for their inability to accept anyone else into their society, if you want. It may, or may not be, real. But the fact remains that by allowing large numbers of people that dramatically oppose the existing cultural mores and actions into the will result in problems. And the press telling me that the terrorists aren't now involved is like someone asking me what I want Santa to bring me for Christmas. When I get done laughing I want to know if they are stupid or lying or both.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Cpinva, one solution: round the rioters up, sort out those who are native from immigrants. deport the immigrants back to their home countries Most of the rioters are reported to be 2nd generation immigrants, therefore, legal citizens. I'm not sure deportation will alleviate the problem.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Big Tex... This isn't because the French couldn't try to integrate the immigrents into society, but rather because they didn't try to integrate into society. Good point and many of us see the same thing happening here in the US.... The never-ending flood of illegals in this country will eventually result in the same thing here. Eventually the jobs will dry up due to the shear numbers arriving every year... then what? Thousands of Mexicans rioting in the streets is not inconceivable. Ern.... It's not an uncommon mindset among the french that if you live in france, you must wholly integrate - religion, language and all. And what is the problem, with that? If I moved to France I would certainly want to assimilate into their society...why else would I go there? That's not to say I couldn't (or wouldn't) still be American and keep my American identity. But to move to another country and then expect them to accommodate me and my home country (language, customs, religion, etc.) is ludicrous and a big part of the problem here in the US. If you move to the US... LEARN THE LANGUAGE.... assimilate into the culture.. or stay home!

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    The USA has experienced Riots by its Black underclass. Sooner or later, the Hispanic underclass will join in; especially if the US economy tanks as predicted. The economic and social reasons Blacks rioted in the USA are just as valid for North Africans rioting in France. There are additional factors too. Violence and War begets more and more violence. It is more than coincidence that the last big French riots and the Prague Spring occurred at the height of the Vietnam War in 1968. The second and third generation North Africans may well be French in language and attitude but their mother’s culture and religion is under attack in Iraq. This has to acerbate their rage and aid in coordination of their resistance to the dominant Christian culture.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    "[ras] You're EITHER intentionally dishonest OR you're ignorant." Funny comment Tampa Student, especially in light of your previous comment: "Whoops. Either-or fallacy. Argument no longer worthy of further review."

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#30)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Jim S., Nice try at pinning the Paris violence on Bush. Kinda cute, really. Tampa, Lotsa sound & fury, but still no args. Seriously, are the root cases economic, social, or both? If economic, the French welfare state model (I'll drop the word socialism for the hardcore purists) is a failure. If social, the French multi-culti approach (i.e. the Mosaic aot the American Melting Pot) is a failure. Or it could be both, which is my own belief. Regardless, France itself will have to confront this directly, cuz the violence is in their streets and responding with unsupported insults, as you did, simply won't make it go away. The crisis is real; the time for posing is ending. Me, I think they'll cling to their welfare state model a while longer and try to pin all the blame on multi-culti. They may try a few more bromides and photo-ops first before admitting the failure, but when those too fail, multi-culti is outta there. The rest of Eurabia will follow suit.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#31)
    by ras on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    Che, IIRC, French law - so enlightened - allows for naturalized citizens to be deported. I am uncertain if that includes their descendants. To where? Damned if I know, cuz I'm not sure anyone else - even their grandparents' countries - would want them. Serious sugg'ns are being floated - and I'm seeing from both libs & conservative alike, and from diffeent countries - for a Euro-Muslim homeland somewhere, perhaps around Albania. Offer them money & transport and see who goes, aot staying in France where they are clearly not happy. The basic premise seems to be that the two cultures can no longer co-exist in France, nor can they assimilate into a new one, so somebody's gotta go. As I noted to TS above, multi-culti as we know it is on its last legs. Granting home rule to selected French areas and neighborhoods won't work either. That was the de facto standard that led to the curent situation, cuz inevitably the thugs raid outside their territory, then flee back to it as a safe haven. You'd have to put up a wall to prevent that.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    The assimilationist Pat Buchanan Types here may find common cause with the french policy makers in their own assimilationist views. In fact, some of the rioting may stem from such policies. Personally, as sons of Mexican immigrants in the US I support the expectation that people who come here should attempt to learn the language. But to ask us (or force us) to forget about our culture, to forget about about our language in favor of being what your consider "AMerican" is wrong. I'm American, but I also respect and look with pride to the culture of my parents...why is that wrong? We cannot and will not throw our past aside. My next post will have a great post I saw about the similarities in French assimilationist policies and the assimilationist policies advocated by Pat Buchanan and apparently from a few people on this board.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    I wrote a poast about this last week in an open thread and look how another week of riots is making everyone say hey. The simple fact is that France (french people) has not accepted the fact that so many African Muslims are now living in their country. Unlike here in the states they have not been allowed to hold public office, or hold any jobs higher then manual labor. Hence unrest. This is not the case in the U.S. Their are no Colin Powells, Condi Rice's, no affirmative action, not CEO's of American express, No Alberto Gonazles', Gov. Richarsons, no TV shows nothing that refelcts their assimilation into our culture. Think 1920's Jim Crow with no KKK. What do you think would have happened here if blacks were forced to live in squalor but the government didn't have the will to enforce their own racist policies? They live in a perverse state of aparteid and predictably (not acceptably) they've revolted. Just be glad that the U.S. had a good mix of hard core republicanism and panty twisting liberalism. Not cheap talk euro elitism.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    Here's the post: A right-wing assimilationist utopia I'm struck by the unrestrained glee emanating from righty bloggers over the rioting in France this past week. For instance, this is just one of many, but InstaPundit links to a blogger who bizarrely declares: "The current intifada in France has stripped the American Left of its second Utopia in a generation. The Left lost its earlier worldly utopia when the Soviet Union fell apart." Are they kidding? As the NYT points out today (and a passage that InstaPundit curiously omits in his linking to the same article) France's policy towards immigrants is every hard-right, total-assimilationist's wet dream: The government has been embarrassed by its inability to quell the disturbances, which have called into question its unique integration model, which discourages recognizing ethnic, religious or cultural differences in favor of French unity. There is no affirmative action, for example, and religious symbols, like the Muslim veil, are banned in schools. What's not to love? National unity, denial of heritage, no affirmative action, subjugating ethnicity to the larger state, a "French Identity." Paging Patrick Buchanan! FYI, here's a very interesting round-up in Migration Information on France's recent attempts to tinker with its immigration and assimilation policies. An earlier piece analyzing France's abandonment and re-adoption of the assimilation policy is here. (including the "integration contract" that immigrants are forced to sign). The piece also argues that it was pressure from newly ascendant right-wing groups in France that pushed the country from its "integrationist" to its more explicit "assimilation" policies: France pursued an "integrationist" policy from the mid-1980s onward, devoting government resources to organizations that encouraged immigrants to abide by the law but retain their distinctive cultures and traditions. Starting around 2000, however, right-wing political leaders began to tap public perceptions that immigrants were responsible for increased crime. As their efforts helped shift the French debate to the right, the idea of "assimilation"—explicit pressure on immigrants to adopt quintessentially French behavior and traditions—was revived. As I've said, I'm curious why it is that right wingers are taking heart in the rioting news. But I have my educated guesses. UPDATE: Welcome, Eschatonians. And check out this short history of some of the complex issues related to French immigration by a Sunderland University professor here and here and here. LATER: Clash of Civilizations! Yay! Permalink posted by Jonathan : 9:38 AM

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Slado on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    Follow-up, I think most of the Right's glee from these riots is seeing the holier then though French deal with reality after criticizing fromt he cheap sets on 9/11, Iraq and recently Katrina. Not justified but understandable. Here's an intersting article from WSJ Riots

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    The root cause is either socialism's failed economics, or multiculturalism's unworkable naivete.
    Well ras, you have a socialist government there in Canada but you aren't rioting...so I think we can rule out your first guess. As for the multiculturalism anglo...oops I mean angle...recall that Paris had big time riots in 1968 that were mostly comprised of the culturally French. This has more to do with the usual market driven economic malaise. Also remember that most of the immigration occurred from countries that were objects of past colonial exploits of the French Empire in Africa. So the aristocracy that extracted vast amounts of wealth from Africa now wants to expel the migrants that came from there. How gauche. Or in this case droit-wing.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    A fact that even we on the american left point out: That the French and other European contries talk about US racism but ignore their own problems. It seems as if, France, literally, ignores the racism in their nation and the plight of these North Africans. Many of them sons and daughters of persona nongrata in home countries which were former French colonies like Algeria. Not wanted precisely because they were deemed supporters of the French presence in Algeria, and forced to leave post revolution. So how has the French treated those who were booted by their support of THEIR colonialism; ignored or mistreated them, racism, discrimination.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#38)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    I don't think this "analysis" is going to lead to great insight on how to run the U.S. If you try to compare across countries, looking at just two or three variables, you're going to get weird results. That should be obvious from some aspects of the France riots; can you imagine two week of rioting in the U.S. with only one fatality? (not counting the two accidental deaths which sparked the thing)

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    The post was to illustrate that the policies that many on the right-wing (Pat Buchanan nativist, take-away birthright citizenship type) drool about, are actually in place in France and that they likely played A FACTOR in the riots (not the end all be all reason). The dynamics here in the US are different of course and so I cannot predict how such policies would translate here, but speaking as a US citizen son of 2 mexican immigrant, I can tell you I wouldn't be happy in such an envirnoment.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    As a kid from New Jersey who's been living in France for the last eight years, I can't help but object to ras' comments about a supposed French multiculturalism. I've long realized, as many French people have, that the French assimilition/integration model has been a hopeless failure. The urban violence of the last two weeks is all the proof we need. The model in place, however is anything but multicultural - the word is taboo here. The failure in question is that of a fundamental notion of French political order: the citoyenté/république foundation. Simply put, for generations thinkers from all political spheres agree that a French person is a citizen of the Republic first and foremost; any other identity is necessarily secondary, and most often irrevelant or dangerous. He is a "citoyen" and as such deserves all the rights of his compatriots and nothing more- regardless of having grown up in the projects, and having a name that just doesn't sound sufficiently français for the DHR. The supposed equality that a centralized state provides to all it's "citoyens" takes the form of a national education ministry that screens, hires, places and pays all public school teachers. In the same vein, universities are compelled to accept anyone with the "bac" or French HS diploma - and do so with ridiculously low tuition. The curriculum of secondary education and universities -recent reform notwithstanding- is nationaly uniform, at least in theory. The idea is that in this way all diplomas should carry equal weight regardless of the institution that issued it; the diploma in reality is issued from the ministry of education. French society is fundamentally different than ours because of the deep Jacobin/state supremacy that defines French political organization. And I admit that it is all too liberticide to my don't-tread-on-me American ways, yet I understand where it came from. I'd like to highlight one fact before I put everyone to sleep: we're talking about poor people who are not recent immigrants. These are French kids, third generation. Generally, their grandparents held menial jobs, their parents may no longer have jobs at all, and their older siblings are wondering why the "Républicain" social contract doesn't apply to them. Political discourse on liberty, equality and brotherhood, has changed nothing for them. They're angry and frustrated with the state that promised so much and delivered little. Far from being radical Muslim terrorists, (I mean nothing could be further from the truth), they just might be of another dangerous type: the guy who's understood that he's got nothing to lose. Yes, the French model is broken. But it's not multicultural, and it's not terrorism.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:50 PM EST
    oka1.. I'm American, but I also respect and look with pride to the culture of my parents...why is that wrong? Nobody is claiming it is. As I stated in my post... I am an American and would continue to be so...no matter where I lived. But, to expect my new country to cave into my demands for, say... english speaking police & fire in my neighborhood... or for the local schools to teach my children English is waaaay wrong. If I want them to learn English.. I should have moved to a country where that is the main language. It's very simple. As I've said, I'm curious why it is that right wingers are taking heart in the rioting news. Again...I don't see that. But it is good to see the high & mighty French get a taste of reality, as slado pointed out.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    BB, the Bigot. Living as I do in Los Angeles, it is easy to see why teaching Spanish is useful and there is substantial evidence that second-language training in elementary school increases IQ. 'Main language' myths aside, there has never been any demonstrated downside to teaching second and third languages, and I've never heard a firefighter or cop complain about the difficulty of learning a few phrases of Spanish. As if that is the only language they might need! In order to save people's lives, you can find firefighters who learned some Korean, or some Russian, or some of whatever language is common in their community. The actual words required are probably under 25. The word 'fuego' would take about ten seconds to learn. The phrase 'todos fuera' would take maybe a minute. You're a serial exaggerator, BB, and a bigot. You celebrate rioting, and then spread lies about peaceful protesting. And you claim to actually make arguments, when all you are is an outlet for the KKK's favorite falsehoods. Oohrah.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    "Lotsa sound & fury, but still no args."
    Oh I made an argument, Ras. You just dodged the point. The point that anyone who believes (or writes that) segregation is dead in the Southern United States cannot be a reliable source of information. As far as the fallacies, they speak for themselves. Your first argument was either-or. Either Socialism is evil and wrong, or multi-culturalism is invalid and unworkable. A two-week rash of protests turned violence doesn't provide enough data to come to either conclusion. But then, people like you tried to convince America that Sadaam was close to finishing a Nuclear Weapon (with little or no evidence). If you're looking for patterns, there's one - in your constant assuming of fact in the absence of fact. The point of making the argument was to (1) demonize Socialism (which France doesn't truly subscribe to anyway) and (2) demonize Multi-Culturalism. Your second post was a slippery slope (the "lesson" to "leftists" of the downfall of French "Socialism"). Once again, an instance of violence - with one person confirmed dead and only a few injured. More people died in the L.A. Riots -- something like 13 dead and a couple hundred injured. America didn't reverse course, make any drastic domestic policy changes as a result, or change it's foreign policy (unfortunately). Neither did they do so after the WTO riots. Despite the lack of response to social concerns here at home, America is still here in a pretty similar state. The "fury" is from disdain. I have no desire to hide it, you write the most despicable dishonest garbage on this board. PPJ frequently distorts and tells half-truths, but you're an expert in wrapping up yellow and calling it purple. Your writing is akin to the debate between "great taste" and "less filling". There is no real debate -- it is a marketing campaign. Only you're marketing lies.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    VERY thinly veiled racism from the usual suspects. Joe McCarthy died in 1957, but he is reborn on TL every time the wingers open their electonic mouths.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    Paul in LA: every time the wingers open their electonic mouths. You mean every time their puppetmasters push the buttons that their electronic mouths are controlled by, or the post hyponotic suggestions activate, don't you?

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    PIL, edgey.... Remember that Joe McCarthy was right. There were communists in the US government, SD included. So while we may argue over his methods and numbers, the essential fact is true, as I pointed to Sailor the other day, along with details and a book on NSA intercepts that prove it. Of course I am sure you will come back condemning the activities in the House on Un-American Activities Committee… PIL writes:
    Main language' myths aside, there has never been any demonstrated downside to teaching second and third languages,
    Nice strawman PIL, but no one is saying don’t teach additional languages. What they are saying is that if you move to the US, or France, or ANY country, you should have to learn the base language of that land. Don’t expect them to learn yours. TS writes:
    PPJ frequently distorts and tells half-truths
    Well, at that it is better than the no-truths you spread. ;-) BTW – I suppose you have an example? No? Thought not. BTW – You write:
    and (2) demonize Multi-Culturalism.
    MC demonizes itself. Do a little research and you will no country that survived if it did not control its borders, language and culture.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#47)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    Jim, I predict that there are chinese spies in the US! Or israeli, French, Saudi, Albanian, German, etc. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. McCarthy's "list" was a bottle of bourbon, he had no specific knowledge of anything

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Peter on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    The riots are due to "multiculturalism's unworkable naivete? Are you joking, Ras? Do you know anything about France's cultural model -- it is the antithesis of mutliculturalism. There' s no recognition of any identity besides French, no tolerance of any minority languages and cultures, no affirmative action, no collection of statistics, etc. Blaming the French riots on multiculturalism is like blaming Lousiana's high crime rate on its "secular humanism".

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    Thanks, Roger. Stating the obvious gets tiring. McCarthy HAD NOTHING, and was wagging the dog so hard he blew his cover on national television. Then he blew his heartvalve, a sad and defeated old man. For the record, this kind of misuse of our Congress goes on today -- some woman named Schiavo ring a bell? She was a Communist -- or at least Georgie rushed back to Brainwashing Town to sign the emergency bill like she was. McCarthy's case was just like her response -- autonomic and a sign of total lapse of human awareness. "What they are saying is that if you move to the US, or France, or ANY country, you should have to learn the base language of that land. Don’t expect them to learn yours." That's hilarious, Jim. How many languages do you know? Plenty of immigrants struggle night after night to learn English, but guess what? It's a damn hard thing to learn a language as an adult. Give it a try sometime, then report back on how you finally realize that Georgie speaks about three words of Spanish, and LIES that he speaks the language. Georgie's English isn't so hot, either. Why don't we deport him for failing to learn about grammar? Then again, his geography is substandard for an eighth grader. Posada Carilles, who blew up a civilian airliner, has emigrated to the US. Georgie is harboring him in Texas. Probably he speaks some English -- should that be the limit on his being in the US? If he didn't speak English, but blew up the airliner, would he be OK? He's a Cuban, his English is shakey, and he blew up an airliner killing 80 innocent people. And Georgie is hiding him from extradition treaties which require the US to PUT HIM ON TRIAL, immediately, if Georgie won't extradite. And meanwhile Georgie is French-kissing Achmed Chalabi, and giving every Saudi prince he can find back rubs.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    Paul (firmly in ) La La land... Once again you jump at the chance to call people names... But that's ok....If expecting people that come to this country learn the language makes me a bigot in your eyes...so be it. I'll be the bigot and you be the idiot! How's that? Living as I do in Los Angeles, it is easy to see why teaching Spanish is useful I'm sure it is...seeing how most of the people there are hispanic! But, that's not what I said. You (as usual) have twisted it so you can jump at the chance of calling me a bigot. What I said was....I (as a taxpayer) should not have to pay to teach your child spanish when he is in America (propably illegally!) There is nothing wrong with teaching spanish in schools for kids that want to learn it.... (IE - elective) Move to Mexico and demand that they teach your kid English and see how fast they tell you too go back to America! You have no clue do you? It's a damn hard thing to learn a language as an adult. It's damn hard for taxpayers to continue to pay for this too! Then maybe they should stay in thier country where they don't have to bother? I've never heard a firefighter or cop complain about the difficulty of learning a few phrases Once agian you are delusional... They are "required" to speak the language here in Chi...not a few phrases. What's wrong with teaching your child a few 'English' phrases so they can get by in a different country? You celebrate rioting, and then spread lies about peaceful protesting. Once again... you spout the lies and point fingers at others...! So typical of libs... Please show me where I "celebrate" rioting and "lied" about peaceful protesting? Is it possible to carry on a conversation with you without your childish name calling and 'out of left field' BS?

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#51)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    BB, Don't hold you breath waiting for Sideshow Paul to make sense, or even try to. PIL traffics in blatant lies, gross distortions, and conspiracy theories that would make G. Gordon Liddy blush. When confronted with the truth, or even a straight up challenge to prove his accusations, PIL has two methods of dealing with them. He runs away, or he calls you names. End of story. As for Paris and why it's burning: There are a lot of reasons for this, starting first and foremost with the failure to integrate the people living in the suburban Paris slums into french society at even the most basic level. Multiculturalism is fine and dandy when you are talking about respect for where people's ancestors came from and a variety of good cuisines, but when it becomes an overarching demand for ethnic enclaves which have no desire to integrate into the society they have chosen to move to or have been born into, the only remaining question becomes how long will it be before things go badly wrong. To make matters worse, many of the people living in those suburban slums are muslims. Now I have nothing against muslims in general, and the vast majority of those I have met in this country have been relatively reasonable people, but the truth is that Islam has a very different view on some basic social issues from how the majority of the people in France view those issues, and radical Islam in particular has some highly questionable (in my opinion) ideas about how societies should be constructed. They may be right, the french may be wrong, but what is beyond doubt is that the two approaches are incompatible at the foundations, and the result is that while the french are not working to integrate these people into french society, those same people are working to ensure that they are not integrated into french society. Given that basic problem, and with the incredibly high unemployment rate and high taxes on those who do work to provide all those "free" services that liberals are so proud of France for offering, it was inevitable that something would happen to set people off and that once it got started, every group which feels it is entitled to a better life than it has (and some of them probably are) would come out and start screaming as well. Now, before anyone climbs up on their soapbox to denounce the above, please take note that I am well aware that it is not only muslims protesting (if that's what you call burning cars and firebombing stores these days). But the fact remains that this whole thing began with two young muslim boys getting themselves killed by trying to hide from the police in a power substation, and that the initial "protesters" were the people from their community who decided that this was a good reason to start destroying everything in sight. The "protests" have grown because other groups who feel marginalized have joined in the fun, those who just like to destroy things have also joined in, and because the French government has made the Bush administration's response to Katrina look exemplary by comparison.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    Posted by justpaul: "When confronted with the truth, or even a straight up challenge to prove (factually-stated) accusations, (there are) two methods of dealing with them. He runs away, or he calls you names. End of story." As you have demonstrated here. (parentheses mine)

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#53)
    by swingvote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:05:53 PM EST
    So prove them PIL. You make constant claims about stolen election with no actual facts. You make constant claims about what people have said but have never once actually been able to show it was true outside of your own fevered mind. And you constantly make these accusations and then vanish for the next 24 hours, slipping in when the thread is now at the bottom of the list and likely to be missed by the vast majority of TalkLeft readers to slip in some snide noncomment. You want to talk about voting machines being inaccurate PIL? Prove it. Cite some actual evidence. You want to talk about stolen elections? Prove it. Show us all the numbers, and make sure they come from a legitimate, objective source. You want to accuse people of racism, bigotry, and every other evil worm that lives in your own mind, at least have the decency to provide some quotes for what they said that you consider to be racist. II won't hold my breath. You're too well known for your style.

    Re: Why is Paris Burning? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:05 PM EST
    justpaul.... I couldn't have said it any better! kudos....

    Why is Paris Burning? | 54 comments (54 topical)