home

Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda

By Jeralyn, Section Other Politics
Posted on Wed Sep 14, 2005 at 11:15:38 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

A new CBS-New York Times poll finds that Americans prefer rebuilding New Orleans to social security changes or tax cuts.

Almost two-thirds, 63 percent, said rebuilding the city devastated by Hurricane Katrina is more important to them than changing Social Security, and almost three-fourths, 73 percent, said rebuilding the flooded city is more important to them than cutting taxes, according to a CBS-New York Times poll released Wednesday.

A large majority of Americans, 73 percent, said they think their taxes will increase as a result of Katrina. More than half of those polled said they were willing to pay more taxes to help with Katrina recovery, job training and housing for victims.

Bush's second term as President has focused on tax cuts and social security changes. This poll is a resounding defeat for his policies and, in my opinion, his presidency.

[comments now closed]

< Brownie Plays the Blame Game | Thursday Open Thread >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda | 23 comments (23 topical)
    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#1)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    A large majority of Americans, 73 percent, said they think their taxes will increase as a result of Katrina. More than half of those polled said they were willing to pay more taxes to help with Katrina recovery, job training and housing for victims.
    My God, what communists.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    My God, what communists.
    Depends on the recipient of the tax dollars. If the recipient is someone other than the taxpayer, say, some corporation, or a bank that "needs" bailing out, then that's good 'ole American capitalism. If the taxpayers derive some benefit from their taxes in the form of social services, or if they were to receive a return as investors on tax dollars spent on the development of technologies like the Internet (which were given away to corporations), instead of being given the opportunity to pay for the technologies whose development they funded as consumers, we'll then that's godless communism. It's all a question of who gets the money. If a non-taxpayer gets it (read: a person, legal or actual, wealthy enough not to pay taxes) gets tax dollars, it's capitalism; if the taxpayers get it, that's communism. Incidentally, the hand-wringing over tax dollars concerns what's left after our non-democratic and largely unaccountable monetary institutions have done their lending to the most profitable (and invariably non-public) ventures.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#3)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    As usual, the people reprinting the article are lazy and don't point to the poll data. everything. The only thing more important than the Hurricane is "other". Because it trumps everything, not just Bush's agenda. Q 53, on who to blame, is just plain interesting. I don't know what to make of it, except that black people really don't like Bush, and white people mostly don't blame the Feds.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#4)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    I just realized my first paragraph above incorrectly and unintentionally calls TL lazy. I meant to call the Yahoo! people lazy. I also borked up the link to the poll data. Here is a discussion of the poll methedology, and here are the questions and results.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#5)
    by bad Jim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Sidney Blumenthal in Salon After Katrina, the country no longer believes in Bush the protector. His presidency is ruined.
    Bush's America is gone with the wind. It lasted just short of four years, from Sept. 11, 2001, to Aug. 29, 2005.
    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#6)
    by rob on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    This poll is a resounding defeat for his policies and, in my opinion, his presidency.

    That's a comment looking for justification, TL. Given the flawed and skewed nature of most polls, not to mention quoted statistics at large, can you actually in good faith make this statement? Rob

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#7)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    roy, while recognizing the legitimacy of some of the points you raise, i am inclined to believe that, at this point in time, the poll probably does fairly represent the feelings of a majority of americans. not a huge majority necessarily, but a majority nonetheless. national healthcare and social security are not the immediate issues of the sort that receive overwhelming media coverage. while it's true they affect large numbers of people, they don't result in them being washed away, on national tv. as tip o'neal is famous for having said "all politics is local". the big issues concern the big wigs, the average guy wants the pot holes fixed and the schools to work right. NO is a really big pot hole.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Hurricane hits and defeats the Bush agenda? How about Democrats running people who pretend to be like Republicans and still losing as a defeat of the Democratic platfrom?

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Mac Lane - The Internet wasn't given away to corporations. What you pay for access to the Internet is the cost of transporing your information to/from various places around the world, just as you pay for regular telephone service. That's being done by private business, not the government. et al - The explanation of how the poll was done is so funny it could replace Abbott and Costello's famous "Who's On First" routine. If we had taken a poll right after 9/11 it would have approved higher taxes and nuking the ME. This is silly.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#10)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    jim, do you ever check the facts, before you opine? the internet was originated by DoD, in collaberation with several colleges and universities (come on now, you must remember, the "gore claims to have invented the internet" lie?), not private industry. in other words, our tax dollars paid for its creation. i first used the internet back in the mid 70's, playing computer games with other students at colleges across the country, using my university's main frame. as with so many things our tax dollars paid for (medical research comes quickly to mind) the results were then given to private industry, who charge us, for using that which we already paid for to begin with. now, i will grant you that verizon, more or less, paid for its own infrastructure, the actual delivery system, but they paid nothing to develop the internet.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    What you pay for access to the Internet is the cost of transporing your information to/from various places around the world, just as you pay for regular telephone service.
    cpinva - The above is accurate and factual. The sites you connect to are either owned by private businesses, organizations or government. There is actually three portions to the cost. Your ISP charges for email and other services. Your telephone company charges you for connection to the long distance carrier who will connect you to your ISP. If you are dial up, it is included in your bill. The long distance carrier charges your ISP and your local telephone company for carrying your traffic, they, in turn, add that to their bill to you. If you use dial up the telephone service doesn't charge because the speed is within voice range. If you want faster, you can buy DSL from the telephone company. In some places cable companies are also acting as a telephone company. The work you refer to was in establishing the TCP/IP protocols, etc. Which was funded by the government and various other groups. There is a continuing research effort, InternetII. But this has nothing to do with what the average person pays to Verizon and Earthlink. And plese. Algore was too busy inspiring the author of "Love Story" to invent the Internet. That's how we know he was fibbing. ;-)

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    I think it's time to vote PPJ off the Island. He is not interested in a discussion of the issues at hand at all. Rather he is soley interested in debate and stealing attention for himself. he seems to think he is TL,s Chief Judge and critic! I think most will agree we have all been Pissed off by ppj, by intent and to his pleasure. Again I think it's time to Vote him off the TL island or at very least banish him to the corner and IGNORE him. IMHO.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    There is a lot more to the story than PPj states. For example, the sale of internet domain names was a givaeawy. But he misses a crucial point: that the corporations who are doing the transporting paid ZERO for the research and development on the protocols, and many of the basic standards in use. The risk of designing and implementing the internet was born by the taxpayer. But would anyone invest in a technology if the return for the investment were the opportunity to pay for it as a consumer? This is the point that PPJ misses.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Careful what you wish for ED. I'm willing to bet you yourself have "pissed off" the majority of the people who post here regularly. You might be the next to be "voted off the island". And if you truly believe that a failure to parrot the same response as everyone else is "discussing" an issue, you probably should be. As for the poll: Polls are pretty much useless, as they are designed to generate the results the person commissioning the poll desires. Given the proper incentive, one could run a poll which showed that the country is 100% behind Bush on every issue and also believes that Ted Kennedy should be crucified on national TV during November sweeps. It's all a matter of how you word the questions. Liberals used to know that when it was polls finding fault with Clinton; I wonder what changed.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    Ed and Maclane: To an independent observer who knows something about the Internet, PPJ's contribution made a lot more sense than statements like these: "tax dollars spent on the development of ... the Internet ... were given away to corporations" "The risk of designing and implementing the internet was born by the taxpayer". What risk? The design was initially a byproduct of people figuring out how to exchange information over a network. This later evolved into a collection of protocols, which have been developed and refined through worldwide scientific cooperation. None of this effort can really be said to have been paid for (and hence owned) by taxpayers of any single country. In particular, the World Wide Web (which is what most Internet users today see of the Internet) was invented by Tim Berners-Lee, a British contractor at a European research facility, CERN. And as for the implementation, in the US, private investors have paid for the majority of it, through their purchase of stock in the telecommunications companies who have laid optical fiber everywhere. And private companies (and individuals) developed the browsers and content management technologies that people everywhere use today to design, develop, maintain, and view Web sites. I'm not going to post a long list of links since this is OT anyway, but if you are interested in the details, just go to wikipedia and start by looking up 'Internet' and "Tim Berners-Lee'.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    What risk?
    All technology development incurs some risk of failure. This development, and the risk, was borne by the taxpayer in the case of the ARPANET. The development of the WWW is a rather latecomer. We're not speaking about the http protocol, and the development of HTML per se, but the taxpayer funded portion of the development. Who paid for the ARPANET? Not Tim Berners Lee. Shifting the development of the internet, and its initial funding by taxpayers to the development of the http protocol and the user's experience misses the point. Another question you and PPJ take for granted is that when congress decided to commercialize the internet in 1992, there was no question about whether it should be done, but how. Read any grant application published by the U.S. government. You'll likely find a section in which the applicant is asked to identify a corporation that will own the rights to any research developed under the grant. There you go. You pay for it. Some corporation gets it.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    All technology development incurs some risk of failure. This development, and the risk, was borne by the taxpayer in the case of the ARPANET.
    You might equally well make the case that taxpayers bore the "risk" of developing the computer during WWII and later saw their investment "given away to corporations". I would say that the application during WWII of the concepts that were developed at that time was its own reward for that investment, and corporations later created new businesses based on the scientific knowledge that had been gained during WWII. The same applies to ARPANET, which was developed for internal DoD use, and then used for that purpose. So there was a return on that investment. The fact that the ARPANET concepts later seeded today's Internet is just an example of the march of technology, not a case for taxpayer ownership of every subsequent development seeded by the original idea. Yes, the ARPANET was the first large-scale network. But the ARPANET backbone was replaced by NSFNET, which in turn was replaced by private networks. The modern Internet is independent of any single backbone, and -- apart from some of the original concepts -- most of the workings and technology of today's Internet owe little to the ARPANET implementation. How would you have suggested monetizing ARPANET for the benefit of the taxpayer -- through patents? But since patents are granted only for implementations, which in this case have been evolving continuously, I suspect that very few ARPANET patents would be worth anything today. So how much has really been "given away"?

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    You might equally well make the case that taxpayers bore the "risk" of developing the computer during WWII and later saw their investment "given away to corporations".
    Yes, the computer was another example.
    I would say that the application during WWII of the concepts that were developed at that time was its own reward for that investment, and corporations later created new businesses based on the scientific knowledge that had been gained during WWII.
    Who were the investors? The taxpayers. The investors ordinarily have a say what return they get on their investment, as a condition of investing. The taxpayer does not have this say. [Occasionally the taxpayer does: they may refuse to fund artists whose work they fund objectionable, although this is more properly a "return" for noninvestment.]
    The same applies to ARPANET, which was developed for internal DoD use, and then used for that purpose. So there was a return on that investment.
    Who were the investors? The taxpayers. Why, in your account, does the return on the investment exclude the investors, namely, the taxpayers? Why even mention a return on the investment for the taxpayer, if they aren't compensated in kind? An amorphous societal benefit is not a "return" on an investment in any sense of the term, and no investor would accept that as a condition of investing. It need not be that way at all. In each case, you have expresed an opinion about the "return" on the taxpayer's investment, so that the "return" does not go to the taxpayer in kind as if the taxpayer were an investor. I don't suggest patents, but I do suggest that the standard mechanism for funding innovation and not rewarding the taxpayer in kind ought to be examined, and not merely dismissed. Why was it necessary for congress to discuss the commercialization of the internet, on your account, if all that was involved was a "march of technology" initially seeded by taxpayer levy, but long since developed and re-developed through an obscure chain of private investors and technologists into the panoply of technologies we see today? Because there was something to commercialize. That development took place after the commercialization of the internet, after the initial development of the WWW and the first browsers that made headlines in 1991. And those developments depended on the years of experience with taxpayer funded technology, going back at least to 1969.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    More tax cuts or ss privitization after Katrina would be political suicide. And the only thing the GOP loves more than further enriching the rich is winning elections. These portions of the Bush agenda will be on the backburner for awhile.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    Mac Lane - Your knowledge of telecommunications appears to be as extensive as mine is in law, except there has been no "Telcommunications and Dial Tone" TV drama to educate the general public. Ed B - Unfornatuely you don't get to vote. Life's a beach, and then you die, eh? Of course I did make a comment about the topic, which is more than you did. As for being a critic of TL? Please show me a comment in which I criticized the subject matter selected by TL. I never have. cyrano - Indeed. I was merely trying to point out the current monthly costs that I expect Mac Lane is concerned about, and which he was trying to use as an excuse for public financing of other projects. et al - Given that the country needs a port on the Gulf, and given that the current location is the ideal, an argument can be made for taxpayer dollars helping to rebuild the port. As far as the city itself, that becomes much more "iffy." I heard somewhere that Bourbon Street will be open by this weekend. Sounds good to me, and I am happy for the individuals involved.... but... so what? I can find a bar at any Holiday Inn on any interstate.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    This thread is only peripherally related to the discussions of privatizing the work to rebuild NOLA (instead of involving the taxpayers there who would benefit), so I'll make a remark before calling it quits (I don't want to overstay my welcome [I did contribute very recently, incidentally], in case I trigger a four-comment/day limit, or worse). NSFNET was cited seemingly to show that the taxpayer funding of the ARPANET happened a long time ago, and is no longer relevant to the march of technologies that evolved in its wake, and which later became the commercialized system we now have. But NSFNET was the Nation Science Foundation network, which served as the backbone of the internet until 1995, when two things happened: the taxpayer funded internet backbone was replaced with corporate networks (commercialized just like that--amazing!); and NSFNET then became InternetII, which is taxpayer funded, and which may become another corporate givaway. Who funded NSFNET, and NSF? The taxpayer. Have you ever prepared an NSF grant? It has a section for specifying a corporate beneficiary of any research, if there is one. Of course this is subject to review, but point is that the transfer of innovation is built in. It's not supposed to be mentioned in polite company though. It's crucial to look at what happened between 1991 and 1995, and how NSFNET was replaced by corporate concerns. This is at the heart of the commercialization of the Internet. Although I recently contributed, that's no excuse to go off on tangents, so I bid you adieu.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    Mac, You may not be reading this, but I can at least clarify my position for others. I am not in favor of "privatizing" public infrastucture like roads and utilities. In fact, I think that having a publicly-owned monopoly handle communications infrastucture(the European PTT model) makes a lot more sense than all the telco competition we have today in the US. But this discussion is not about that issue, it is about the specific claim the US taxpayers paid for the Internet, which was then "given away" to private companies. And that is not what happened. Taxpayers paid for the invention and constuction of ARPANET, then NSFNET, which were used for the purposes their creators had in mind. That usage did not generate any profits, but the taxpayer money involved was being used for a legitimate purpose, and any later use of the research was a byproduct. Furthermore, ARPANET and NSFNET were not "the" Internet as we know it today, they were merely its forerunners. Indeed, if the taxpayers had actually paid to build out the Internet, then I would agree that they should own it and benefit from it. They did not; the modern Internet was funded by private investment. The only things that were given away to the companies who invested in building out the Internet were some ideas and mechanisms previously developed during the course of ARPANET and NSFNET. (That is why I asked if patents might be an appropriate vehicle for compensating the taxpayers). Yes, those ideas were important ones at the time, but the investments involved were still a small fraction of the total invested in building out the networks. The same argument applies to the notion that taxpayers invested in the earliest computers, and therefore should benefit from that. Yes, taxpayer money was spent initially, but it took massive investments by IBM and the seven dwarfs, and European and Japanese companies, to evolve computer technology from its infancy to its current level of maturity and commercial value. I thought this parallel example was so obvious that it would make my point clear, but it did not. My point is that to argue that the taxpayers "gave away" the computer and the Internet to private companies, you must ignore most of the real costs of running a high-tech company. Taxpayers may have given away a few ideas. But products, not ideas, are what ultimately bring in revenue, and it takes massive investments to design, build, and sell products successfully in the commercial marketplace. And yes, ultimately those corporate revenues should be taxed, thereby providing a monetary return to the taxpayer. Isn't that an effective process for turning publicly-funded research into public revenues? Maybe your concern is that this process does not work in the US today? If you felt that sufficient coprprate taxes were being levied, would you still argue with the process? Now, since this is all OT anyway, we should end this debate.

    Re: Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:52 PM EST
    Anyone else remember when this thread was about bush and the fact that he won't be able to cram the rest of his agenda down america's throat after screwing up so bad in NOLA?

    Poll: Rebuilding NOLA Trumps Bush Agenda | 23 comments (23 topical)