home

Friday Open Thread

As promised, here's another open thread. I'll be back Saturday night to resume regular posting. Major thanks to LNILR and TChris for helping out yesterday. I only brought a powerbook G4 with me on this trip, since my regular laptop seems to have died, and I can barely operate a Mac. That's another reason I'll be really glad to get home. Linking on this machine is beyond tedious, there's no right-click button for cut, copy and paste and the delete key works like a backspace instead of a delete key. On the plus side...does anyone have one?

< Pelosi Tells CNN Commentator to Go on White House Payroll | Cheney Told in Gulfport to "Go F**k Yourself" on CNN and MSNBC >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Hold down the ctrl key and click to get the pop-up menu. Or get a 2-button mouse. :-) The delete key IS the backspace key. Get used to it. Or write "backspace" on it. :-) If you want the delete key to act as a forward-delete, hold down the "fn" key and hit delete. It does both!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by chupetin on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    I found this item from a poster at another site and felt it worth discussing. Does anybody have any input?
    It doesn't feel right because it isn't right. And it isn't new. Look at the "faulty" intelligence about Iraq leading up to justifying something they planned to do anyway. Look at the complete absence of culpability regarding Abu Ghraib. And now look at New Orleans. We have stories about water and food being deliberately turned away, survivors being deliberately rounded up, communications (at least in Jefferson Parrish) being deliberately cut... and yet we are still playing that cold comfort game of imagining that well-orchestrated events are just a series of "oopsies"! Ronald Reagan (all Alzheimer's jokes aside) managed to skip some pretty hefty criminal charges by playing "asleep at the wheel". Some arms for hostages, a wry chuckle from the populace and then it's back to business. The comforting thought that none of this is malicious is what keeps these guys in business. But apart from covering their asses, how does it benefit them to appear to be a bunch of well-meaning, but bumbling idiots? Let's think about this a moment. Aren't people now DEMANDING a more comprehensive and self-contained FEMA? Aren't they appalled at the "bureaucracy" that cost all these lives? Why, none of this would have happened if FEMA had the authority to be a self-contained police force that didn't have to wait for authorization from a higher power (They are, and they don't). But now they have a mandate from the masses to be jack-booted thugs. People are throwing themselves on the ground and BEGGING that FEMA come in swiftly, efficiently, and with no "bureaucratic" oversight (and with that, no accountability). A newer, harder, more militaristic FEMA that shoots first and asks for permission later would never have let New Orleans flounder for days. And a newer, harder, more militaristic FEMA is precisely what we are demanding and will get... and with a legitimacy that can only be bought for the price of a few thousand ordinary lives. A good fisherman does not jam a hook down a fish's mouth. A good fisherman makes that fish believe that is where he wants that hook to be. Am I giving the administration too much credit for cleverness? Sure, we sleep easier at night thinking that they are a bunch of incompetents. But I ask you, for the past five years, have they stopped inflating their own bank accounts? Have they been held responsible for one single atrocity or outrage that has been perpetrated at their behest? So who are the real incompetents here: BushCo or us "clever" commentators who keep letting them get away with it over and over and over...?


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    How about that Prez Bush's rescinding the minimum wage in Katrina-stricken areas. He sure responded rapidly to that aspect of the disaster. The big boys up for the big-bucks reconstruction contracts can exploit workers who lost everything by paying them less than fair wages. This will do wonders for our already-booming economy, eh PPJ? Supply and demand and the magic of free market and all that. This is what they did in the 14th century after the population was decimated by plague and the workers were in short supply. Even then the nobility simply held that wages would remain the same as before the plague. Not less.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    um, that actually did kinda work out pretty well immediately after the 14th century AW....society prospered, somebody discovered America, the Renaissance began, the crusades ended... You're saying we should avoid that approach why?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Kitt on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    um, that actually did kinda work out pretty well immediately after the 14th century AW....society prospered, somebody discovered America, the Renaissance began, the crusades ended...
    You understand the 14th century is the 1300's, don't you? "...society prospered..." Society - not in the manner in which I think you mean - no. Not for some time, not society, not 'us' as in the masses. As for the Renaissance itself, Italy in the 13th century; 16th century! in the rest of Europe itself. Gutenberg's success with the printing press I think is one of the most valuable inventions. THAT is when society began prospering - the literacy rate increased. Society wasn't meant to benefit the everyday person; it was meant to benefit those with power - until the late 18th century and working hard thruout the 19th and up to the present. We're still working.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    “On the plus side...does anyone have one?”
    Not that I use a Mac too much, but the newer operating systems (OS X) is UNIX based. This is great for folks who work remotely with other computers that are running UNIX or LINUX. The whole UNIX thing plays well with folks doing scientific computation and, for all I know, IT folks as well. As I see it this is the only advantage of a Mac. As contentious as the Mac v Windows thing is there isn’t that much difference; mostly the annoying interface crap (and you know, Apple finally built a 2 button mouse). They are well built, but very expensive. The windows machine I built is rock solid, but was 1/3 the price (and just as fast). And there is a great deal more software available for windows; sure, malicious software too.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    PW, Exactly- I switched to Mac a couple of years ago when windows announced that their system would never be secure. I cant afford hackers. Try explaining to the state bar why all of your client files have been made public

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Bushco and their enabled Governor Pigface Haley Barbour are suppressing the body count in Mississippi. According to the local officials they have recovered all the bodies but the numbers are not being released at the request of the Bush administration they do not want exact numbers--they particularly do not want estimated of the numbers who died waiting to be rescued

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Grad student: the Black Death occurred in 1350; the rest of the century featured more wars, death and chaos. Are you telling me that keeping the wages of peasants down somehow contributed to Columbus's discovery 150 years later? More importantly, how is this going to benefit anyone now, other than big business? And if you think exploitation is a good thing, I assume you won't object to those being exploited receiving food stamps, subsidized housing, medicaid, school aid, etc. Or are you and your ilk still going to complain about those welfare kings and queens?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    TalkLeft, Apple Key + C = Copy Apple Key + V = Paste Apple Key + X = Cut Apples teach people to use command key and Cap Key combinations rather than to rely on a two button, right click, left click mouse, and the average users doesn't even have to think about it anymore. Personally I think it's Bill Gates who got it wrong, but that's just my opinion after 14+ years of working with both systems at the same time.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by cpinva on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    bush signing a bill eliminating the requirements of the Davis/Bacon act should relieve everyone who accused him of being a racist. not at all, he just dislikes low income people, regardless of race. roger, what are you doing leaving case files on your hd? bad, bad boy! use removable memory: flash memory, cd's or dvd's. you can get a 1 gig flash memory for under a $100, and put it in your pocket. that's what i do, for the exact reason you cited. hard for someone to hack your files if they aren't there. granted, i get funny looks from my colleagues and the IT people (i think they are insulted), but i work from the premise that there is no such thing as a completely secure system, and never will be.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    CP, 1G for $100? Wow! Thanks for the advice, only problem that I can see would be if there is spyware on your pc, wouldn't that be accessable when you plug in the flash card? Or am I just too much of a dinosaur?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    aw writes:
    This will do wonders for our already-booming economy, eh PPJ? Supply and demand and the magic of free market and all that.
    aw, that's a tough one. I lean towards union protection, was a IBEW guy myself for a while. What you are ranting about, I guess, is the so-called prevailing wage for that area, which in many cases is not accurate. What you should be worried about is the illegal aliens coming in and driving down the wages for jobs that Americans would do, but want more bucks for. BTW - Are you now, or have you ever been a union member? You know, real life experience type of thing. BTW - The unions are declining because they have lost leverage. They have lost leverage because they have pledged themselves to the Demos. The Demos pay them just enough attention to keep the leaders happy. The Repubs mostly ignore them because they know no matter what the unions will endorse/work for/collect money for the Demos. If the union leaders had been involved in horse trading in years past they all would be riding jackasses. Come to think of it...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    cpinva writes:
    i work from the premise that there is no such thing as a completely secure system, and never will be.
    Wise words. Roger. You can also just copy them on a read/write CD's, and carry them in CD case. Somewhat less portable, but also less likely to lose than the "memory sticks." (I just bought a 1G stick for 49.95 on sale, so look around.) BTW - The "stick" requires a USB port. Just because you have deleted a file after you copied it, that doesn't mean a hacker can't get to it. But, there are several programs available that will wipe your hard drive clean, some to the NSA level.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    What you are ranting about, I guess, is the so-called prevailing wage for that area, which in many cases is not accurate.
    I didn't say anything about prevailing wages, I specifically said Bush suspended the minimum wage law. But you knew that. You chose to misunderstand.
    BTW - Are you now, or have you ever been a union member? You know, real life experience type of thing.
    My father was a union worker for many years. I have always supported unions. I wish we had more and stronger unions. Why would you even bring this up when I am complaining about worker exploitation? Does that sound anti-union?
    BTW - The unions are declining because they have lost leverage. They have lost leverage because they have pledged themselves to the Demos.
    The unions have lost leverage, all right, but it's because they have been painted as greedy because they have had benefits that other workers haven't had. So instead of other workers demanding the same, they tear down the union workers even as their own workers rights and benefits are stripped away by Republicans and their antiworker laws. Divide and conquer, baby. The unions have supported democrats because there isn't anyplace else to go (maybe there is still hope for a third party).

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Great, the min. wage is rescinded when tens of thousands are desperate for any job. Gotta hand it to our leaders, they are consistent in their greed and contempt for the working class even in the face of great tragedy. The Gulf Coast will become mini-Iraq, a place for big contracts for the connected, and now they are free to share even less of the pie with the people who actually lift the shovels and push the wheelbarrows.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    OK...Nobody's mentioned this that I've seen, so I'm going to. Why have we not accepted help from Cuba? Are we too proud to accept help from someone we dont agree with? Even if we do need it? They have offered assistance twice already and our officials havent even responded. With the outbreak of disease that seems entirely possible, you would think we could definately use some more doctors and medical personell. This is what the Cuban govt is offering and we are ignoring them? WTF...We should at least be telling them "thanks, we may need your help in the coming months if disease becomes a problem". Instead we ignore them b/c of politics. DAAAAAYUUM.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Alright...I assume the argument for reducing the minimum wage is so that contractors who had not planned to hire a bunch of new help may be able to afford to do so in the short term. However, nobody can support a family on minimum wage, and if this min wage suspension is not repealed soon after the work starts, it's bound to cause an enormous mess in the Gulf Coast region.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    Gulf War III? Blackwater is now patrolling NO with M16's.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    peacrevol: The money for contractors is there. Joe (former FEMA director and friend of Bush) Allbaugh's clients Shaw Group just got two $100 million contracts.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    For the MAC-Another nice option mac OSX offers is that you can make a bootable clone. If you clone to an external firewire drive, and back up to the clone regularly, you do not have to skip a beat when you have a major crash. No lengthly re-install process, your up-to-date clone is bootable from another mac using OSX, and can be re-cloned back to the original HD very easily. Carbon Copy Cloner makes this possible and is downloadable from here (free or donate if it is useful). It has saved my a** many times. I also use tri-backup ($49.) to regularly back up to my clone.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Dadler, I like how he threw in the ugly woman part. Classic.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Rudy Guiliani has been hired to provide crisis management services to the utility company of NO --- being paid for ultimately with tax dollars no doubt. Rudy has made millions as America's mayor and this is just another financial windfall for him. Typical Republican

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    stupid typekey aw...not trying to argue a point here, b/c i'm not sure if I agree with it or not, but perhaps they are trying to coax the businesses that have lost stores to rebuild sooner than they would otherwise. But who can support a family based on minimum wage pay, even at current min wage rates? Especially with gas prices creeping up on $3.40. If any of you know a good reason why they are lowering the minimum wage, please enlighten me.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    If any of you know a good reason why they are lowering the minimum wage, please enlighten me.
    The Republicans are in charge. Figure it out.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    The Republicans are in charge. Figure it out.
    Yeah yeah yeah, but what is the reason that they're giving everyone? I mean they cant just say..."uh...what am I going to do today...Oh I know...suspend the minimum wage rate". They have to give a reason.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    If anybody can provide some proof that they are suspending the minimum wage, please provide it. The only thing I can find is that they are suspending the Davis-Beacon requirements for the "prevailing wage" for construction and cleanup contracts. Because most of the people who will be participating in the reconstruction will also be getting federal housing assistance, healthcare assistance, food and power subsidies, and because the whole local economy has been devastated to the point that the historical prevailing wage has been rendered utterly meaningless, I don't personally see a whole lot to complain about.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    1. Section 3142(a) of title 40, United States Code, provides that "every contract in excess of $2,000, to which the Federal Government or the District of Columbia is a party, for construction, alteration, or repair, including painting and decorating, of public buildings and public works of the Government or the District of Columbia that are located in a State or the District of Columbia and which requires or involves the employment of mechanics or laborers shall contain a provision stating the minimum wages to be paid various classes or laborers and mechanics." (b) The wage rates imposed by section 3142 of title 40, United States Code, increase the cost to the Federal Government of providing Federal assistance to these areas. (c) Suspension of the subchapter IV of chapter 31 of title 40, United States Code, 40 U.S.C. 3141-3148, and the operation of related acts to the extent they depend upon the Secretary of Labor's determinations under section 3142 of title 40, United States Code, will result in greater assistance to these devastated communities and will permit the employment of thousands of additional individuals.
    Proclamation by the President If there were a cap on profits to be made by fat-cat contractors, this wouldn't bother me nearly as much as it does.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Kdog - No, not the minimum wage. aw writes:
    I didn't say anything about prevailing wages, I specifically said Bush suspended the minimum wage law. But you knew that. You chose to misunderstand.
    Here read what he did. And it is Bacon Davis.
    To amend the Act approved March 3, 1931, relating to the rate of wages for laborers and mechanics employed by contractors and subcontractors on public buildings.
    aw writes:
    The unions have lost leverage, all right, but it's because they have been painted as greedy because they have had benefits that other workers haven't had.
    aw, if the Union leadership had traded off the Demos against the Repubs, they would have never lost, no matter what the media said. Instead the leaders, for access and power, became an adjunct to the Demo party, who has snarfed them, and the Repubs don’t care. That’s politics. Get over it. Or better yet, join the union and reform it. BTW – Are you still in school? Have you ever had a real world job?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    aw - Read. That is federal contracts. Not minimum wage protection for hamburger flipping.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    As Mother Superior Chimp put it
    And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them.
    What she did not say but implied was that even at $2/hour things will still work out very well for all those underpriveleged locals. They are all so lazy that a white man's $10/hr wage will be roughly equivalent. Grad- Cancelling minimum wage requirements in NO will work out very well for all those underpriveledged locals as you 'reason' by your (un)historic analogy. Is that why the religious right is so against abortion: so as to produce a below minimum wage god fearin' labor class. As you know the middle and upper class will always have access to aborting unwanted pregnancies as Bush did in 1970 when it was very illegal in Texas. Your program, if legislated will only affect the poor.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    I stand corrected about the minimum wage/prevailing wage issue. However, it still means that the crony contractors will profit at the expense of labor. Why is it okay for the already wealthy to rake in the cash, not only at the workers expense, but at the taxpayers? I also referred above to the necessity of government benefits. This wage action still keeps poor people on the welfare treadmill. For those who complain about how welfare people don't want to work, this should be put-up or shut-up time.
    ...under the Davis-Bacon Act, for construction in Orleans parish,laborers would make about $7-10 per hour. By suspending Davis-Bacon, Bush is now saying that Halliburton doesn't have to pay that much. To put this in perspective, a laborer with a wife and two kids, if he were the sole support, working full-time, would be at or below the Federal poverty level even if he received the Davis-Bacon wages.
    This post at Kos has a link to prevailing wage data. BTW, PPJ, I am a middle-aged woman and mother who has worked most of my adult life in the real world.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    CNN reporting that Brownie is being sent back to Washington and Vice Admiral Thad Allen from the US Coast Guard is taking over.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    PPJ-someone is going to have to flip burgers for the hungry Haliburton regular high paid workers in their NO mess hall. The flippers will be fed employees under the new rule.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Michael Ditto, Be nice if GEORGE W. BUSH actually had the nad and ability to take over when it counted, but downloading Brownie is obviously a good thing. If, um, a tad late. Never shoulda been in charge of FEMA in the first place. However, if any Arabian horses have been displaced, I nominate Brown to be in charge of picking up their droppings.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    I wonder if the prices on these contracts would be higher if the prevailing wage were at its original level. Anyways, does anyone have any thoughts on why we cant let Castro send us some help? That whole thing bothers the hell out of me.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by roy on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Anyways, does anyone have any thoughts on why we cant let Castro send us some help? That whole thing bothers the hell out of me.
    Those who work under Communism are slaves to the state. We shouldn't try to benefit from their enslavement, even in an emergency. (I'm not convinced that applies here, but I'm willing to be wingier than usual for the sake of debate)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Those who work under Communism are slaves to the state. We shouldn't try to benefit from their enslavement, even in an emergency.
    So perhaps if we let them help, they'll come over here and decide they like the freedoms of our land are good enough to make them want to leave their "slavery".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Just pretend that last sentence made sense grammatically. You know what I mean. :)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Anyways, does anyone have any thoughts on why we cant let Castro send us some help?
    Money and votes from some slimy critters in Miami known as gusanos.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    Money and votes from some slimy critters in Miami known as gusanos.
    So once again we let politics interfere with saving lives. Good idea (sarcastic tone)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:32 PM EST
    “So perhaps if we let them help, they'll come over here and decide they like the freedoms of our land …”
    You missed the point. The citizens of Cuba don’t get to decide to help or not; the aid that would be sent is taken from them through force. There is no democratic accountability. Fidel Castro decided to help, or rather help himself.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by peacrevol on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    The citizens of Cuba don’t get to decide to help or not; the aid that would be sent is taken from them through force.
    And this will be different in the US than in Cuba? Castro has been in power since 1959. If the Cuban people had wanted a different form of government they could have come up with one. I dont agree with the way they run their government either, but when their president offers to help we should at least respond. We may need their help sooner than we think and to refuse b/c of political differences is shooting ourselves in the foot because of what? pride? politics? cigars?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    “And this will be different in the US than in Cuba?”
    Yes, Cuba is a dictatorship.
    “If the Cuban people had wanted a different form of government they could have come up with one.”
    A closet libertarian? Violent authoritarian governments can stand for a surprisingly long time. That they have isn’t an acceptable reason for receiving ‘stolen’ goods.
    “We may need their help sooner than we think”
    I doubt it. We aren’t short on resources, rather effective leadership and organization.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by MikeDitto on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Last I heard Castro's offer of support only amounted to a propaganda speech for the benefit of his people, and that no offer has actually come to the state department via official or unofficial channels.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    YOU MUST SEE THIS! A 197 picture slideshow covering New Orleans through Katrina.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Well, Michael, you should have watched or listened to Democracy Now! yesterday ... you can still watch the segment on their website. In that segment, with Phyllis Bennis of Institute for Policy Studies, several points were made: 1) Cuba has the most advanced hurricane response teams in the world. 2) Each responder carries a 40 kg (or so) backpack with specialized materials for rescue and treatment of hurricane victims. 3) These responders can be deployed in HOURS. 4) Those responders were offered IN ADVANCE. 5) Cuba has trained THOUSANDS of doctors, for free, the only payback expected is the commitment to serve in a poor area of Latin America (or elsewhere) for three years. The program is six years, all expenses paid. 6) Though this money of course comes out of the Cuban economy without the say-so of the people, the previous US-puppet government of Cuba stole millions of dollars, and did NOTHING for the poor. That's why there was a revolution. 7) If helping the people of Louisiana and Alabama in a timely way is "helping himself," as pigwiggle so speciously says, then what exactly was GW's vacation serving? His second five-week vacation in August-Sept has been real sweet for this SECOND devastated city, that could have been saved through prompt action. 8) Hitler used to say that the democracies were doomed, because a dictator can do in an afternoon what a Congress will never do, or not do for years on end. And GW IS a dictator. He revels in giving undemocratic orders, recess appointments, under-the-table no-bid contracts, and big bonuses to everyone who supports him. And yet he FAILS, again and again, to serve the poor people, unlike Castro, who has many times made the poor people of Cuba his top priority. 9) Bush is a dictator who maintains power by burning down our institutions. He has to do that because we HAVE them. Cuba was raped by the US rich for generations before Castro. He isn't a gentleman, but the idea that we have the moral highhand in this poker game is HILARIOUS. Cuba's assistance would have tasted just like food, just like clean water, to those people who Bush left to dehydrate and die.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    CNN files lawsuit against government agencies seeking to bar press coverage of victim retrieval process. from josh marshallt WOW the MSM is acting uppity, finally a bit of dissent.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    peacerol writes:
    So perhaps if we let them help, they'll come over here and decide they like the freedoms of our land are good enough to make them want to leave their "slavery
    " Thousands have already come. They have come in small fishing boats, in hijacked airplanes. They have jumped ship, they have defected from touring performing groups. Did you not know this? aw - Sorry, but your comments, for whatever reason, struck me as a college student who is used to living off the "old man's (or woman's) money." The prevailing wage issue has been around for years. The question has been, why should we pay above market prices for government contract work? And understand. That is what we have been doing. And understand. That is our tax money being spent. PIL - Cuba has everything....but you! And freedom of speech, and freedom of the press....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."Louisiana's Republican House member Richard Baker, a strong Bush ally, may have tipped his hand about the future plans for New Orleans when he told that to a group of lobbyists. link

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."
    At least this creep will vocalize what a couple of the anti-Castro guys on this thread are thinking, but wont say out loud here.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    Violent authoritarian governments can stand for a surprisingly long time.
    Indeed, guys like Trujillo and Pinochet were around a long time. As were dozens of other right wing dictatorships we propped up over the years. Hey pigwiggle, did you know that if you went to Cuba and spent some money there that your government could throw you in jail? Now what were you saying about freedom?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    Ernesto, don't forget that wondeful humanitarian organiztion we helped found in Shah-era Iran, SAVAK. After all, SAVAK is one of the main reasons they figured life under the Ayatollahs' would be an improvement.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:35 PM EST
    Ernesto-
    “Hey pigwiggle, did you know that if you went to Cuba and spent some money there that your government could throw you in jail?”
    I did. Did you know that it is illegal for a US citizen to consume certain Cuban goods even outside the US? I am against any trade embargo, and have posted my objection to the Cuban embargo on previous threads. Anyway, what does this have to do with my post?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Moreso that Cuba's medical workers, I think we should take Venezuela up on their offer of 5 million barrels of refined gasoline. Just don't let Shell or Exxon distribute it, get it directly to gas station owners so they can reduce the retail price accordingly.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Yesterday I heard the most jaw-dropping thing on talk radio. It was Rush, I can't quote it verbatim, maybe JM can access the transcript, but here is the gist of what I heard him say yesterday afternoon: "I know it might seem right now like nobody likes George W. Bush, but folks, it's just not true. I can think of one entity that loves George Bush. And that's God. God loves George W. Bush and this will be revealed as the days unfold." Grasping at straws. Take ye another vicadin, thou blight of human skin.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    When asked to comment on Rush's statement God replied: "I love all my children, even those that make it really, really, tough, like Rush. As far as George Bush...I have no comment at this time". "Now, watch this drive".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Anyway, what does this have to do with my post?
    Was just making the point that you have little room to throw stones at Castro when your own government won't let you spend your money where you want. As for Cuba...there are plenty of people opposed to Castro living in Miami. If they want him gone why don't they go try and fight him there? Rather than bribing some weasels who then make laws restricting our freedoms.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    A plate at a big GOP fundraiser: $1,500. Rush's pill addiction: $5/pill Adept's comment: Priceless.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    “you have little room to throw stones at Castro when your own government won't let you spend your money where you want.”
    Or perhaps I have more targets. The US’s bad behavior isn’t a pass for Castro.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    Thanks, Glanton. :)

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    kdog writes:
    get it directly to gas station owners so they can reduce the retail price accordingly.
    Laying aside the fact that the station owners have no way of refinning the oil into gasoline, why do you think they would be any less greedy? Greed is. Squeaky - After reading your link, I finally understand how the term "moonbats" came to be. From the link:
    These New Orleans residents have been scattered across the United States and are now under the control of FEMA.
    Actually they are not "under the control.." of anyone. They are free American citizens who can come and go as they please. Now, if they want FEMA to pay for their food, housing, etc. they will have to live where they are told to live and eat what is provided. And I, as one of the "payers" demand that it be adequate and proper. Adept writes:
    After all, SAVAK is one of the main reasons they figured life under the Ayatollahs' would be an improvement.
    And, unfortunately, they were wrong. In many cases, dead wrong.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by squeaky on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    PPJ-Free to come and go? Just hop into their SUV and drive away to their summer homes? You neocon propaganda crowd can not spin this lie no matter how hard you try. These people have been forced out and are now caged in, must be natural selection at work. As Louisiana's Republican House member Richard Baker, a strong Bush ally, said: "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    "Greed is." Come on, Jim, you can finish it, it's not rhetorical: Greed is a Republican virtue. Among the biggest contributors to GOP power are the oil companies, and then, coincidentally I suppose, the Republican war in Iraq alone, before Katrina, had Exxon turning in bigger profits than Wal-Mart (another Rethug accomplice), for heaven's sake.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:36 PM EST
    glanoton- Lets set aside for the moment the fact that greed is a human trait and, I believe, a virtue. I have a fantastic book that you should all buy, ‘The Buying of the President’; Charles Lewis and the Center for Public Integrity. My copy is the 2004 issue, but I think they put one out every presidential election cycle. Anyway, in the top 50 Republican contributors for 2004 there was a single oil company, BP PLC at ~4 mil; the largest single contributor was Philip Morris at ~10 mil. The Democrats collectively received much larger contributions from single donors; their top 4 donors gave more than the Republican's largest donor, and all of their top 9 donors gave more than the Republican's second larges donor. I don’t know exactly what this might mean, but I do think that any single large donor expects favors, and it looks like the Democrats owe a few. But more interesting are the single large donors contributing to both parties. AT&T; ~5.5m Reps /~4m Dems, SBC communications ~3.7m Reps (their #12)/ ~3.6m Dems (their #20), and so forth; AOL, Microsoft, Citigroup, Philip Morris (Dems #38 at ~2.5 m) Greed can be ugly and destructive, but I think mostly it has driven innovation and industry. Folks with a strong drive for power and wealth have created a lot of stuff that improves the quality and quantity of our lives; and some of them even gave away a few bucks in the process. Take the humble computer for example. It is what it is today, not because of philanthropy or a collectivist effort, but because a bunch of people wanted to make some money off them. I would be willing to wager computers have been instrumental in saving the lives of millions and providing a positive benefit in standard of living. I can’t really think of one monumental technology that has been created through a philanthropic or otherwise collectivist effort.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by glanton on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    Pigwiggle, you opine: "Greed can be ugly and destructive, but I think mostly it has driven innovation and industry" .... and I cheerfully cede this point. I'll even admit that I still get all nostalgiac when I think about Francisco D'Anconio's money speech at the Taggart wedding. But truth, as they say, is stranger than fiction. There is a difference between the kind of greed that drives a man or a woman to develop a vaccine or lead the way in technology, and then the type exhibited by war profiteers such as Exxon, BP, et al. Now they are Katrina profiteers as well. In America, pigwiggle, when we have a war, the only ones that do not sacrifice are the rich. Even O'Reilly has spoken out about the oil gouging. Yet you continue to defend them? Moreover, you don't need to convince me that the Dems are deep in with the corporate behemoths as well. But here you're in danger of being seduced by the same lazy rhetoric propogated by that liar, Ralph Nader. They are not the same, my friend. When it comes to individual liberties, consumer rights, worker's rights, etc., the Dems outclass their opponents by leagues and leagues.