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Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Fri Jun 17, 2005 at 08:23:15 AM EST
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A bi-partisan group of legislators have introduced a bill seeking an exit plan for Bush's increasingly unpopular war:

A bipartisan group of lawmakers introduced a resolution that would require Bush to submit a plan for troop withdrawal by the end of the year and to begin the pullout by October 2006. "After 2 1/2 years, it's right to take a fresh look. We have a right to ask, 'What are the goals?' " said Rep. Walter B. Jones of North Carolina, one of the Republican sponsors of the measure.

"It's time to get serious about an exit strategy," said Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, a Democratic sponsor. Other sponsors of the resolution include Reps. Ron Paul (R-Texas), Martin T. Meehan (D-Mass.) and Lynn C. Woolsey (D-Petaluma).

It's time to get out of this war with no end.

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    Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded | 53 comments (53 topical)
    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#1)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    How can there be an exit plan when we're building permanent bases?

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    Why should there be an exit plan, everything is going just peachy keen over there. Just ask JCHFleetguy, PPJ, Richard Aubrey, they will set you straight. Iraq is OK and you are a leftist dummy if you believe otherwise.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#3)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    What happens after the US leaves? Please differentiate your views of what we should from those of the Baathist murderers.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    What happens after the US leaves?
    American soldiers stop dying, for starters.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#6)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    If they left, foreign jihadis would have no reason to come to Iraq to make their bones, so a source of support would dry up. Having to deal with internal opposition is on the back burner for now. In other words, win-win from their point of view.
    Yeah, they could come to America, or some other country and plan their actions unmolested.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    US Soldiers as human shields, how brave. Send Americans to Iraq so jihadis don't have to cross the Atlantic to kill Americans. In other words, make the jihadis' job easier...brilliant! Unless it's your kid/spouse/sibling/friend in Iraq, eh?

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#8)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    You sound just like the average Democrat circa 1863-1864. If you do succeed in getting a US pullout, I'd like to know what your reaction would be to a wahhabist takeover in Iraq, along with the attendant slaughter that would follow.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#9)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    JR. They'd be just fine with it. See Southeast Asia in 1975 and thereafter. The real point of this is, by seeing those who believed us slaughtered, to make the point that working with the Americans is fatal. Lefties think it ought to be a capital crime--the only one they can think of--and so nobody in the future will want to deal with us. And, since our scuttle from Somalia emboldened OBL, to our cost, this will embolden others to attack us. That's good, especially if a Republican is president, or was. In either case, Bush can be blamed. This is not rocket science. The lefties have worked this before, and hope to see it work again. The fear is that we might win, with democracy in Iraq and neighboring countries. That's why the lefties want us to pull out before it happens. Whatever you do, don't expect the lefties to feel compassion for any civilians slaughtered by the enemies of the US. They never have, they never will.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:09 PM EST
    I'm sure Iraqis are thrilled we are using their country as a terrorist fly trap as well. The people of Iraq had zero to do with 9/11. They just had the misfortune of living under a brutal dictator hated by the US. The dictator is gone, but now they get daily car bombings. No rest for the weary. It's as if the admin. looked at Iraq as the US's personal playground.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    I agree that an exit plan is needed. An exit plan does NOT mean we should pull out now (because clearly we cannot), but we should set goals for what should be accomplished when. Then, we can let our soldiers know when they can come home!

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#12)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey: "JR. They'd be just fine with it. See Southeast Asia in 1975 and thereafter." You mean, I should look at: -- the massive "boat people" exodus from Vietnam -- The huge "re-education" camp system set up there -- The slaughter of the hill people -- The genocide in Cambodia and call that "just fine" ???? What color is the sky where you live?

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#13)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    JR. I thought I was responding to James Robertson's question about those things. The answer is that the lefties wouldn't have a problem with it. They think it's either great, or,...they think it's great but they're smart enough not to say so.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Shermbuck
    Why should there be an exit plan, everything is going just peachy keen over there. Just ask JCHFleetguy, PPJ, Richard Aubrey, they will set you straight. Iraq is OK and you are a leftist dummy if you believe otherwise.
    Actually, I am not a "kneejerk" conservative. I have no problem with Congress forcing the administration to explain an exist strategy by December 30 - it is obvious President Bush went into the war with much less than adequate planning, so making them prove they are thinking now is not a bad thing. Further, in my opinion the administration is already pursuing an exit strategy so why would this bother me [see posts on administration efforts to include Sunni's in constitution process so it doesn't derail - because we want to leave. Also, here and here] Desertswine
    How can there be an exit plan when we're building permanent bases?
    We have permanent military bases all over the world. Why not in Iraq? Now you may be opposed to ALL US military bases in the world - but whether we have bases in Iraq has nothing to do with an exit strategy one way or another. Kdog
    American soldiers stop dying, for starters.
    I think you are better than this answer. Unless you truly believe that Saddam Hussein and the Baaths were not murdering butchers - some concept in your reasoning should extend beyond a nationalistic concern for American lives to what occurs to the Iraqis when we leave. Dark Avenger
    If I were a dedicated Baathist murderer, I would want American troops in my country for as long as I can pick them off a few at a time, without a comparable or overwhelming loss of my forces counterbalancing the advantage of using terrorist(asymmetrical tactics) against them.
    An Egyptian editorial today said the jihadists were obviously in the employ of the US because the brunt of their attacks were against Iraqis civilians, and the Iraqi National Guard. [Should I say something like that to liberal conspiracy theorists - oh well]. Anyway, it is clear to most that the targets of the insurgency and jihadists are primarily Iraqis, not the US. That will continue to grow as the "joke" Iraqi police and army take over the primarily security roles. General: I opposed the war in Iraq; but I equally oppose, after destabilizing their government, leaving before there is a stable Iraqi government capable of defending itself. To do so would risk leaving behind another Somalia or Lebanon - a very inhumane thing to do.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#15)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Kdog, I'm sure Iraqis are thrilled we are using their country as a terrorist fly trap as well. The people of Iraq had zero to do with 9/11. The racist right cares not about the average Iraqi family. Collateral damage. Whomever will they blame for the next attack on US soil this summer? Probably us lefties.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Patrick, Why aren't those jihadi's coming here, too? I understand Iraq is a pull, but there HAVE to be SOME who wanna sail the ocean or cross the desert from mexico, or whatever, and come here and machine gun a mall full of American shoppers, no? Perhaps that is not what this is all about, but foreign policies that have sold entire populations to tyranny so we can have cheap oil, or diamonds, or cell phone batteries, or whatever.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    again with the racist bilge-the last refuge of the mindless. what "race" do you think Iraqi's are? As for blaming lefties, we probably will-by your actions and words, your preference is for the other side to win. Do you think Ward Churchill, Michael Ratner, Michael Moore would care if another plane plowed through buildings or worse? Certainly, who could be faulted for killing Nazi's and "little Eichmanns".

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#18)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    - but whether we have bases in Iraq has nothing to do with an exit strategy one way or another.
    With fourteen permanent military bases in any one country, any talk of an "exit strategy" is an absurdity.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    I think things can only improve for the Iraqis after a pullout, jhc. American soldiers are the reason the jihadis are in Iraq. With no Americans to kill, it is reasonable to assume they will leave the Iraqi people alone. I suggest leaving a few billion dollars for rebuilding efforts. IMO, The general welfare of Iraqi citizens was never a concern for the admin., only a talking point after no WMD's were found. I don't see how our continued occupation will improve their lot. Get the fu*k out and let them attempt at rebuilding their country their way.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#20)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    While the war in Iraq is primarily about US interests, the end result will help Iraq and the rest of the middle east. If this works, Iraq ends up with consensual government, and that event will resonate past its borders. Why do you think the Syrians and Saudis are funding so many attacks on Iraqis? They fear that end result, because they know what the message will be to their citizens. There was a time when the Left cared about freedom. What's happened is that the Left has morphed into a clone of the 1930's era "America Firsters" - which is why there's less space between Buchanan and the Left than you would think.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    God knows how many are dead, 100k or more. All for a bunch of maybes or hope sos, according to James. We had no right to level their country as an experiment. It takes a lot of human life to grease those wheels. And those that support such an experiment never have to put their feet near the fire. How convenient.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#22)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    kdog - sure, war is ugly. The idea is, it's better to fight it over there than to fight it over here. Right now, the jihadis are pouring into Iraq, which is better than having them come here. Most of the Iraqi deaths are due to the jihadis targeting them - which tells you something about the dystopian world that they want to end up with.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    better to fight it over there than to fight it over here
    . Better for whom, not the Iraqi people. Not the US soldiers. Better only for the jihadis (it's a much easier journey into Iraq than across the Atlantic), And for the American citizen who has no moral qualms with sending some young reservist off to be a human shield. Personally, I have many moral qualms about fighting them in Iraq, a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, as opposed to here. We have no right using Iraq and its people as a terrorist fly trap. Have we no courage as a nation? I say if some jihadi wants me dead, I'll be here waiting. To quote our pres., "bring it on". Lets fight them here, and not in some innocent third party country.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#24)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    kdog says: "I think things can only improve for the Iraqis after a pullout, jhc. American soldiers are the reason the jihadis are in Iraq. With no Americans to kill, it is reasonable to assume they will leave the Iraqi people alone. I suggest leaving a few billion dollars for rebuilding efforts." yes, that's worked so well everywhere else it's been tried. Southeast Asia, Colonial Africa... you would be hard pressed to find an example of where kdog's assertion didn't lead to disaster.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    JCHFleetguy, sorry for lumping you in with the others. You at least have thought about your comments before posting them. James Robertson, What huge army are we keeping at beigh with the war in Iraq? I think you have taken too many of the Kool Aid shots. Also the "left", whatever that is supposed to be, does care about freedom. If the U.S. wanted to helpthe Iraqi people overthrow their rulers than I really don't know many on the "left" that would have been against it. But instead we invaded a sovereign nation on the pretext that Saddam had not been forthcoming on the WMD issue, which it turns out there weren't any, and to enforce UN resolutions that had been broken, which Israel still leads the pack with 67. It was never, and I do mean NEVER about making the people of Iraq free. You have bought into the propoganda. But now that you have, how old are you? Have you served in the military? Since the National Guard and Reserves have upped the age to join to 39, so why don't you put your money where your mouth is and either re-up or join the military for the first time? I would, but I was disqualified at the MEPS where I live, but I sure would appreciate it if some democracy spreadin' individuals like yourself would answer the call and put all of us "left"y, America hatin' jerks to shame. What say you, James? I know PPJ has served, but that doesn't mean he can't re-up, so my challenge goes out to all of you who supported this war from the get-go and aren't currently serving. Go to your nearest military recruiters office and get in on the mission of the century, the WOT. Otherwise all of you are just a huffin' and a puffin' (you know full of hot air, sound and fury signifying nothing and all that jazz). And I'll respond to PPJ pre-emptively(since he is so incredibly predictable) by saying that there is a 70 year old Grandmother serving right now, so how about you? You can't be older than her and it would be something you could rub in the faces of those on the "left".

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    it's better to fight it over there than to fight it over here. That's about the stupidest ranting point the lamebaughs have ever come up with. The insurgents are mostly iraqis and didn't want to blow themselves or americans up before we invaded. Everytime we roust a family, shoot unarmed civilians, firebomb cities we create more and more people who hate america. And not just in iraq but in every muslim nation around the world. Even if it worked, having a policy of cynically using american soldiers as human shields is worse than Gen. Wastemoreland's "War of Attrition" against the VC.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Invading for regime change is and was ILLEGAL. Shutting down the illegal airbases is the whole point, and it will not happen while the WAR CRIMINALS are in power. This is INVASION FOR PROFIT, and Fleet, you have overshot your 'I opposed but we cannot leave a mess' target by well over 100,000 deaths. Leave a mess? Bush has created a mess, a genocidal mess, and nothing but. WHERE is the rebuilding after going-on three years? Why is the electricity still not on? Why is the water supply still not repaired? BECAUSE THE MONEY ISN'T BEING SPENT. They are busy building out the airbases, and can't take the time to build infrastructure for civilians who will be left behind in territories eventually anyhow. Forget the 'troops out' -- Bush, Cheney, Rumsfled and the rest ON TRIAL for their crimes and/or removed from office is the necessary first step, since this is a coup, and since the Iraq Adventure has been vile treason the whole way down this evil path.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    As to the huffing and puffing comment, would you be willing to leave the policy on Iraq/the war on terror to only those serving in the military? I would guess their attitude is a lot different from yours. how many regular iraqi's are blowing their fellow countrymen up? my guess is none-I would love to see your evidence to the contrary. the festering hatred of the muslim world is nothing new either-they hate jews, women, their fellow muslims without any actual military action being necessary.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#29)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Paul. A couple of weeks ago--you were probably out of town--there was a bestiality freak using your name. That was one sick puppy. You ought to change your password. Will that do it? I don't know. Something, anyway.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#30)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    "Invading for regime change is and was ILLEGAL" If you check your copy of the Constitution, you'll find that all it takes to make war legal is a href="http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686">Congressional authorization. Well gee - seems we have that. Which means that the war is - wait for it - legal. As to the guy who asks "why don't you join up", with the implicit statement that otherwise I have no right to back the policy - first off, I'm too old. Second, if we want to establish a policy whereby only those who are willing to go can be in favor, it makes sense to go all the way to the "Starship Troopers" theory, and say that only those who volunteer to serve get to be voting citizens. That's not what I favor, but it's the logical end point of the assertion. You might explain that to Duncan Black, who also keeps making this pseudo-point, seemingly in the belief that it's meaningful.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#31)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    JR. When the movie came out, the lefties cried that the idea was fascist--having only veterans vote--no doubt motivated by the pushed-up saucer cap Doogie Howser wore, reminiscent of the Wehrmacht caps. I don't think these people think more than half a step ahead. If they got what they claim they want, they'd be horrified, not to mention the most logical result of what they claim they want.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#32)
    by Andreas on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    James Robertsen wrote: "all it takes to make war legal is a Congressional authorization." The war criminals which were put on trial in Nuremberg used similar defense "arguments". That did not help them.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ambiorix on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    James Robertsen wrote: "all it takes to make war legal is a Congressional authorization." The "Congressional authorization" was given based on the evidence (about the existence of WMD) produced by the Bush administration, but this evidence was later proven to be nothing but a pack of lies. It's because of these deliberate lies that the legality of the war against Iraq is in doubt, because if the Congress had known that there where no WMD in Iraq (for instance by letting Dr. Blix finishing his job) , there would have been no war against Iraq.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#34)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    "The "Congressional authorization" was given based on the evidence (about the existence of WMD) produced by the Bush administration, but this evidence was later proven to be nothing but a pack of lies." We have a corrective for that, called elections. Guess what - news flash - your side lost that election. At all levels. Which means that, in general, the public does not agree with you. The rationale for a war has nothing to do with its legality. If Congress authorizes it, it's legal. Note that "legal" has nothing to do with "moral". If you want to argue against the war effectively, stop tossing around stupid arguments about legality.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    desertswine
    With fourteen permanent military bases in any one country, any talk of an "exit strategy" is an absurdity.
    Actually, that number has dropped to 4 - and members of the Iraqi government are discussing whether they want any (due to the violence magnet involved) Kdog,
    I think things can only improve for the Iraqis after a pullout, jhc. American soldiers are the reason the jihadis are in Iraq
    As I posted, the jihadists are primarily attacking Iraqis - I do not think that will end. The issue I was really speaking to, was the collapse of the government and some form of Baathist return, or Lebanese-type situation. Paul in LA
    WHERE is the rebuilding after going-on three years? Why is the electricity still not on?
    Saw an interesting article with a construction contractor on a power project in Baghdad. The were over a year behind schedule due to repeated jihadist and/or insurrectionist rocket attacks - besides having to spend time building a 12 ft concrete wall around the whole site. The insurrection targets infrastructure.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#36)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Well, that only goes to prove my point.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#37)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    In my opinion, which is coincidentally former President Bill Clinton’s as well, the insurgents and jihadis, foreign and domestic, will bide time rather than face the eventual compromise if a timetable is set. If the exit is instead contingent on a series of goals this does double duty, providing Iraqis with a clear view of the US pullout while pressuring and demoralizing the insurgency as each goal is fulfilled (I assume the most important being a capable Iraqi security force). However, if you are interested in my exit strategy; boats and planes, starting now, 24/7, until the last soldier is gone.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    As to the guy who asks "why don't you join up", with the implicit statement that otherwise I have no right to back the policy -
    It also presents the question of whether people should be able to vocally "oppose US imperialism and the subjugation of the Iraqi people" unless they are crossing the Syrian border to join the jihadists. A new Abraham Lincoln Brigade?

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#39)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Naw, fleet. It's different, because...it's just different. See? Not hard to understand? I would take exception to your attempt to reverse the issue. I'd say they get to oppose US imperialism only if they are, say, victims of the old tyrant. So, having lost their families in Saddaam's torture cellars and mass graves, they can stand up for principle (The Treaty of Westphalia) and resist those who threw out Saddaam. 'cause lefties have strong principles and everything. And if the Americans start filling the marshes so the Marsh Arabs can go home, they would block the lnflow, because that would be principled. Nome sain? Getting late. Getting silly. Dishes to be done and a child car safety seat clinic (say that five times fast) tomorrow. One more. Returning from Stratford, ONT, after some Shakespeare, I was stoppped in Leith for some minor traffic violation. But I was let go. Thus: The Leith police dismisseth us. Wouldn't have worked if I'd been coming back from the Shaw festival. I'd be talking it to death for a week.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    Fleet: "The insurrection targets infrastructure." HILARIOUS. The money hasn't been spent because they aren't interested. The 'Green Zone' repairs haven't been dramatically impacted by insurgency -- they aren't taking place. A good example is this 12 foot wall you mention. That is the 'blast wall,' and the segments of that wall cost $1000 EACH because they are IMPORTED. One thing Iraqis can make, it's concrete. They can make those blast wall segments for about $200 each. But how is Halliburton to make its money if it doesn't import at FOUR TIMES THE COST? In Bosnia, Halliburton imported PLYWOOD (even though Eastern Europe is an excellent source of lumber products). They charged the US taxpayers something like $200 a sheet for plywood that was available in Bosnia for $5. Bushiness as usual. Moving billions from the Treasury into the private businesses of the Bushies. Bombing the civilian infrastructure in the first place was a war crime. Failing to rebuild it? Another war crime. Importing what can be made locally? Sheer malice -- for a profit.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    A good example is this 12 foot wall you mention. That is the 'blast wall,' and the segments of that wall cost $1000 EACH because they are IMPORTED.
    Before we get to the mighty evil Halliburton - can you back up a step? Now I read this story (cost wasnt in it - just delay, and of course the need due to rocket and morter attacks) so can you link your information? Thanks. Oh here is kinda of a big list of what I know is going on: Step by Step (its a long page and the heading Reconstruction is down a ways)

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#42)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    What I find interesting about some of the comments from my friends on the right is that noone is preaching that we are winning the war (remember the party line is that we don't have an exit strategy, we have a "victory" strategy). What is being revealed is that the Bush administration doesn't have an exit strategy or even a victory strategy. Didn't have one before they started the war, didn't have one as the war began, and they don't have one now. We have supposedly turned so many corners in this war, only to find that we are back where we started. For example, when Saddam was captured, I found this post in TL from Cliff "six months until Bagdhad is safer than Manchester." That was written in December 2003. Turning corners is meaningless when you keep going in circles.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    John Horse
    What I find interesting about some of the comments from my friends on the right is that noone is preaching that we are winning the war (remember the party line is that we don't have an exit strategy, we have a "victory" strategy). What is being revealed is that the Bush administration doesn't have an exit strategy or even a victory strategy
    I presented one in this thread but I will recap: 1) Get the Sunni involved in writing the new Constitution. [Almost Done - the Sunni's have agreed to a level of representation, but still haven't picked the representatives. The Shia have agreed the committee will agree on constitution by consensus] 2) Get a new constitution passed in December (they have pressed hard for no delays in the process) 3) Replace American troops in direct security roles as the Iraqi police/military stablilize and train (Iraqis have taken over security of Baghdad - not just the Green Zone) 4) Withdraw American troops - other than 4 permanent bases (which the Iraqis are not sure they will allow) when the Iraqi government is able to defend itself from whatever threats remain. You can agree, or disagree, with this as a plan - but it is a plan for victory AND exit.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:12 PM EST
    Fleet, The only problem with this plan is it ignores the REALITY of the situation. You assume the Sunni issue can be resolved, which is dubious to say the least, and is even more so when ther is NO American leader with the moral credibility and eloquence who can sell a REAL idea for peace and prosperity and a future. There is no one right now. Also, if we leave ANY bases there after we leave, we lose, we are the occupiers, and it's target practice until hell freezes over. In short, because this "war" was forged on a pack of lies, familial dysfunction, ignorance, fanciful thinking, and greed, we have screwed everyone into the ground in a much more profound way than anyone could've imagined. There IS no solution that will not kill thousands more. UNLESS we act with humility and self-critical generosity, exponentially more than we have so far. But that is not possible until Bush is gone. He is the single most reviled American president abroad in modern history. And when you're in trouble abroad, well, his crappy and more than well-deserved rap has come back to bite us ALL (because we "elected" him) in the collective ass. You wanna "win" in Iraq. Then help your nation act like a man, stand up, look in the mirror like a free person should be able to, then look at the Iraqi people and say, "Goddamn but we messed up in so many ways, and we MUST do better, and here's how ALL of us will." Humility, a little self-deprecation from the mouthes of power, combined with CLEAR AND EVIDENT GENEROSITY (not graft masquerading as such) will go a long way. I mean, can you imagine the Iraqis hearing such evolved stuff from us? After all, it certainly isn't something extremist muslim fanatics are going to espouse now is it? We have an edge in that area, or we're supposed to; that we never even use because we prefer the cold contours of bullets and force too easily.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:12 PM EST
    Dadler
    The only problem with this plan is: 1)it ignores the REALITY of the situation. 2)[or is it 1a]You assume the Sunni issue can be resolved, 3)[1b]NO American leader with the moral credibility and eloquence who can sell a REAL idea for peace and prosperity and a future. There is no one right now. 4) if we leave ANY bases there after we leave, we lose, we are the occupiers, and it's target practice until hell freezes over.
    1) Who knows - I read a lot from Iraqis on both sides of the issue. A reality is there - and a successful plan has to be based on it. If this plan is not based on the reality (which is not at all clear to me) then it will fail. That isn't really something we should wish for - because that could lead to Somalia or Lebanon-style ethnic militias beating on each other for years. I might almost agree Saddam the butcher keeping everybody in their place by brutality is better than that - almost. The United States cannot be there long-term for both internal and external political reasons; so the plan above is what we should wish for. I am "long of tooth" enough to know that stated objectives and actual objectives when it comes to US Governments (liberal and conservative) do not necessarily coincide. 2) Again, the Sunni's are saying they want to enter the process to ensure a lasting, independent, and secure Iraq - and to keep the government from being a Shia tool. They have accepted the compromise; and dropped their boycott. Now there are steps they must take. Will they? We will know in the next month or two. All the verbiage on both the Sunna and Shia side is right; but the caveate in number one above about stated and actual goals apply. For instance; the Iraqi security forces in Basra being turned into an essentially Shia militia will have to be reversed by the government. And the Sunni cannot have a piece of the political process - while car bombing the Iraqi security forces and people. 3) There are a substantial number of Iraqi's who think Bush was very brave to take out Saddam instead of just trying to starve Iraq (and Iraqis) to death by sanctions - that process created huge suffering in Iraq. I can point the way if you want to read and talk to some of them. They also think the US has blundered horribly in the process (starting with the complete disolution of the Iraqi Army). Rice has played a positive role in bringing the Sunna into the process (and pushing the Shia to make it so). I would characterize the majority Iraqi opinion as thankful the Americans removed Saddam; thankful for US military protection; hopeful of their own military taking the US's place; hopeful for democracy; and distrustful on whether, after there is a government that can defend itself, whether the US will still be there. This drives my political program. There are two more general comments: First, you will not impeach President Bush - so we are stuck with the leadership we have until the next Presidential election. The Iraqi political process will not wait until then. I have already said I think the administration, based on its track record, needs to prove it is thinking now. Second, the driving force in building the Iraqi government is not the administration anymore. Witness the Iraqi apology to Iran for the Iran-Iraq War; and government-level discussions with the Iranians. This wasn't the Bush Administration' idea. 4) This is probably true. We have bases in a lot of places we are not occupying - but the situation in Iraq would have to change dramatically in the next year or two for such bases not to be perceived as such and have a large target drawn on them. Could I envison the Sunna, Shia, and Kurds all agreeing that they had no problem with US bases? Hmmmm. Again, any rational view of Iraq includes the US military being there until there is a unified government capable of defending itself.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#47)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    jchfleetguy, I do agree it is a plan. Here is a suggestion for a name for your plan. Why don't you call it "Iraqification" (similarity to "Vietnamization" is not coincidental). Since both of us were opposed to the invasion of Iraq, I wont' go over any of those arguements in what Bush has done wrong. What I hear from you is lets turn this into something positive. If we pull out now, all those servicemen who have died in Iraq will have died in vain. However, there comes a point where the costs of "victory" exceed the benefits. Whether we have reached this point I think is the difference between us. Just be aware of this, people sometimes stubbornly persist in staying in losing propositions long after the point where the costs have exceeded the benefits has been reached. If Iraq is a lost cause then insisting that we continue to stay there will only result in more unnecessary deaths.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    John The process is in place and moving. Do the Sunni actually help write the constitution, and help vote it in in December? In the meantime, does the insurgency drop to the jihadists and Baathist remains (a significant drop in military action should happen if the Sunni largely withdraw from the insurgency to join the political process)? Does the Iraqi army, already with more troops in uniform than the Americans, assume more and more role? These are not long-term questions. I was around for Vietnam. Right now, you could not compare the Iraqi government to any Saigon regime - or the insurgency to the NLF. In Vietnam, free elections were cancelled to stop Ho Chi Minh from getting elected. Here a butcher dictator was removed from power with the hope of creating free elections. If the reality in Vietnam was that the majority of the population supported the Siagon governments - than Vietnamization would have worked. If the reality of Iraq is that the majority of Iraqis support democracy, instead of the Baath, then Iraqiazation will work We will see.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    John
    If we pull out now, all those servicemen who have died in Iraq will have died in vain.
    Actually, my primary argument is that if we pull out now we are leaving the Iraqi hanging like we did the southern Shia in 1991.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#50)
    by Richard Aubrey on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    Fleet. You're right. The left wants to do that again--and the SEA catastrophe was one of their finest moments. They'd love to see the Iraqis who trusted us shoved into mass graves. Now, I expect some will object to my characterization, but if they can figure out how their plan will not result in the wholesale deaths of Iraqis who trusted us, they are welcome to try. I don't expect coherence, since hiding that sort of thing is difficult, no matter how many moonbeams you put in your paragraphs.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    Posted by Richard AubreyL "They'd love to see the Iraqis who trusted us shoved into mass graves." They already were -- in a place called Fallujah. Lying to Congress to get a war authorization that required, in its text, UN authorization, does not establish legality. Indeed, Bush was required to submit 60 day reports for each stage of his military activities, and, so far as I know, has failed to do that. At each stage the Administration is required to get further Congressional authorization, which it has not done. John Kerry pointed this out long ago. Furthermore, the scope of activities is grossly out of alignment to the grant of powers. And, we now have British papers that state categorically that the war actions VIOLATED the UN treaty. They could not therefore have been compliant to UN treaty. "promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions." (Sec. 2b) Evidence of conspiracy, such as we now see, directly voids the basis of authorization. The profer of facts in the Resolution itself is grossly false, as well. For instance, the claim that Hussein attempted to assassinate Bush I is patently false: this was an allegation that was never demonstrated, based on a single informant. Given that Bush I LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE about the first Gulf War suggests that this claim is also spurious. There are many such LIES in the Resolution. "Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program," No such 'discovery' was ever made. " and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;" No such evidence has EVER been produced. This is nothing but lies, based on Bush's false representations.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    I don't expect coherence, since hiding that sort of thing is difficult, no matter how many moonbeams you put in your paragraphs.
    There's nothing I hate more than an arrogant conservative.
    They'd love to see the Iraqis who trusted us shoved into mass graves.
    This coming from an unempathetic militarist who applauds using cluster bombs and depleted Uranium shells on a nation to secure oil interests, permanent military bases, and Corporate contracts. This coming from some bigoted thug who believes our pretend "Christian nation" has a moral duty to re-engineer an ancient culture to better fit an American Corporatist Conservative world view. This coming from somebody that believes that our young, poor 18-22 y/o uneducated boys should sacrifice their lives for this - ship them back in pine boxes at 2 A.M. so nobody can count them - and then cheap out on the Kevlar while simultaneously reducing their benefits and giving marginal tax breaks. Save us your mock empathy.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#53)
    by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:13 PM EST
    Tampa Student Dadler and fleet touch on an important issue, when should the US use military force. I tend to agree with the Powell Doctrine (named after Colin Powell, who shamelessly betrayed his own doctrine during the 2nd Gulf war): As a last resort, with strong public support and only if there is a well-defined national interest at stake. And it should be executed with overwhelming force and a clear exit strategy. Bush'invasion of Iraq failed on all of these criteria, which is why we are in the mess we are in.

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:14 PM EST
    John I think Colin Powell's exit from the Administration was because of his disagreements over Iraq - which means the Powell Doctrine shouldn't be cited as the basis of Iraq (or Powell called shameless for violating it). Now this is the second time to day I've seen the Powell Doctrine cited - and that is just wrong. Some other views: The Legal Factor (Egypt); Sunnis; More Sunnis; Sunnis betray Al Queda?; Grounds for Hope and Thank you America (Saudi); Tikreet; No American Gulag; Step by Step; and Cartoon from Iraq. An interesting forum is: Baghdadee بغدادي

    Re: Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:00:14 PM EST
    Oh I forgot an older one: Thursday, February 12, 2004

    Exit Plan from Iraq Demanded | 53 comments (53 topical)