Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai Demands Action

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Sat May 21, 2005 at 07:50:59 PM EST
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Bump and Update: This story's gaining traction. Afghan President Karzai today demanded action against those repoonsible for the abuse. The Arab News Services also are giving it prominence. Armando at Daily Kos has more.

Update: Karzai is coming to the U.S. for a showdown. He's demanding control of all Afghan prisoners. The U.S., meanwhile, is blaming Karzqi for Afghanistan's soaring opium production. This should get interesting.

***********
original post

The days of quelling criticism of the Administration by labeling it "un-American" are coming to an end. As more and more Americans come to understand that this criminal treatment of detainees was systematic, and endemic to the Bush Administration, not only will our world image continue to plunge, but it may well result in Bush leaving office as the most disgraced President in history since Richard Nixon.

Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan has been serving as a secret U.S. prison since 2002. Many suspicious deaths have occurred there, some of which have been investigated. Today, the Guardian reports (based on yesterday's New York Times article and the newly released ACLU FOIA documents):

A leaked report on a military investigation into two killings of detainees at a US prison in Afghanistan has produced new evidence of connivance of senior officers in systematic prisoner abuse. The investigation shows the military intelligence officers in charge of the detention centre at Bagram airport were redeployed to Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in 2003, while still under investigation for the deaths of two detainees months earlier. Despite military prosecutors' recommendations, the officers involved have yet to be charged.

"The White House always put forward, that Abu Ghraib was an exception, just some rotten apples," he said. "But US personnel in Afghanistan were involved in killings and torture of prisoners well before the Iraq war even started. "The story begins in Afghanistan."

Here is a sampling of our past posts on Bagram to re-acquaint you with some of the details - there's many more, if you just type "Bagram" in the search box on the right:

9/17/04...Afghan Prison Abuse: Who Gave the Orders?
3/8/04...Report: American Troops Abusing and Killing Afghans
11/30/03...U.S. Won't Release Results of Bagram Investigation
8/18/03...Ex-Detainees Allege Abuse by the Military
3/15/03...Freed Afghan Prisoners Allege Torture
3/7/03...Is Bagram a Torture Facility?
3/5/03... Afghan Deaths Ruled Homicides

Update: Here's more from Jeanne D'Arc at Body and Soul.

Update: Take from a veteran, John Cole. Left Coaster says "Cut the Violins."

[comments now closed.]

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Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai Demands Action | 51 comments (51 topical)

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#49)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:55:39 PM EST

PPJ when backed into a corner because his lack of logic then makes completely unsubstantiated claims against those who exposed him. Typical neocon/Bush admin tactic. BTW I take being lumped with Ernesto by you as validation of my beliefs and a compliment.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#50)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:55:39 PM EST

You now write, "The use of car bombs does not automatically make them terrorists." Huh? Do you actually believe such tripe?

I fail to see how the mode of delivery cars versus airplane inherently makes one a terrorist method.

Are you incapable of seeing that they are trying to terrorize the populace into giving up and turning the government over to them?

In fcat this has also been the approach of the US in Iraq. Inflict massive casulaties and destruction see Fallujah in order to deter the insurgents. As Rumsfeld said "Eventually the Iraqis will tire of being killed" This nicely sums up the US approach. It is also why the approach has failed.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#51)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:55:40 PM EST

SD - You are on record as agreeing with OBL that our government is "is unjust, criminal and tyrannical," so I do not find it surprising that you argue that terrorists are equal to US military forces. In doing so you ignore thousands of years tradition and law regarding armed conflict, yet you then will turn and argue that these terrorists deserve to be included in the Geneva Convention. The government of Iraq, headed by Saddam, was thoroughly and promptly defeated. If it were not for the terrorists, a fully functioning government would now be in place, we would have, at the most, a token force in Iraq, and thousands of Iraqis, not to mention US forces, would be alive and well instead of mouldering in a grave. There is no doubt in my mind that the terrorists, using Vietnam as a blueprint, are playing the game of killing a few everyday, believeing the Left will facilitate a political winning solution for them. I do not believe the Left is conscious of this, indeed I believe their guilt can be placed in the road to hell being paved with good intentions category, but, of course, the results are the same. I think Stalin described American fellow travelers as "useful idiots." Ernesto - About three weeks ago you made a many faceted claim about attacks by terrorists. When I challenged you, you decided it was okay because we had armed them. When I wouldn't accept that you tried to slip away by talking about movies, but you finally agreed that just becaused we helped them in Afghanistan, thus arming them, that was not a reason. But, you have never addressed my inital challenge. So. Let us be clear. Do you agree that it was not acceptable for the terrorists to attack us on 9/11, or at anytime in the past, or at anytime in the future?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#1)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

When terrorizing a population, in order to establish airbases and install FOREIGN oil and LNG pipelines across a country by force, and for private corporations, detaining and torturing persons from the general population will serve the purpose of terrorizing and traumatizing the rest, so that they can more easily be exploited for profit and power. It isn't yet Hitler, but he would have applauded it. These Nixonian dinosaurs are war criminals.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#2)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

Yet not one of these stories gets the attention that the Newsweek Magazine story does? Who is running the liberal media anyway?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#3)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

A Spongebob-hating stallion-masturbator runs the White House. It goes downhill from there, Ernesto. The corporate media itself is run by an algorhythmic loop. No one programmed it, it just happened. And no one can take responsibility for any of it. It doesn't belong to anybody, and no one is making any profit on it. That is all. Lunch will be at 0100 hours.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#4)
by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

So what is the political and human problems? didn't we all ask for this? after all doing! inmates is normal in our prison system so why not there? but if bush must find some new scapegoats it will be real easy to do with the right propaganda on you, after all you all fallen for the england case didn't you. so what can you do to stop this bull, not one thing if you can't see the show in front of your face. anyway this show is working right on schedule and you can't see it, how sad.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#5)
by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

Is there a bigger hypocrite than George W Bush? When Americans were captured by Iraqis early in the war he said "We expect them to be treated humanely, just like we'll treat any prisoners of theirs that we capture humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals." (emphasis mine) He was saying this a year after he issued the White House directive that said that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in Afghanistan. I agree with Bush that people who mistreat prisoners are war criminals. Those that give the orders are war criminals. Those that issue the directives are war criminals. Those that cover up the mistreatment are war criminals.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#6)
by DonS on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

I wonder if Newsweak is beginning to regret caving to administration pressure? There is no end of bad news for this administration, just courageous outlets to reveal it. The necon lipsync "9/11 changed everything" is long past as an excuse for more abuse and creeping fascism? At least for rational individuals; we'll have to wait to see who shows up here to whack the mole one more time.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#7)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

Some of the prisoner abuse has been horrific and unexcusable. It seems to me that Bush inherited a military large portions of which were poorly trained and undisciplined. As more abuses have come to light, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, and other administration officials have continually condemned them and attempted to make it clear to military personel that such actions are intolerable. Unfortunately, some extremists on the left have attempted to defend the Lyndie England and others by utilizing the old "just following orders" argument that was rejected at Nuremberg.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#8)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

The trail of these crimes leads directly to Alberto and Dubya and their legal opinion regarding torture that was supposed to give them political cover from the fallout of torturing prisoners. Connect the dots, folks. Dubya asked Alberto for this memo on torture, then sent directions down the chain of command that led to these war crimes. High crimes and misdemeanors. War criminals. Put them in the docket with Pinochet and Kissinger now. Leave poor Emmett Tillman alone and let's give him justice by prosecuting the spiritual heirs of the folks who beat that poor kid to death. The spiritual and political heirs of the racial hatred that killed Emmett are in the White House today.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#9)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

Ernesto writes "Yet not one of these stories gets the attention that the Newsweek Magazine story does? Who is running the liberal media anyway?" Flawed logic, for two reasons. 1. The Newsweek story was attached to riots, deaths and cries for jihad generated by the radical Moslem clerics. 2.The fact that the story was almost immediately understood to be false.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#10)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:15 PM EST

1. The Newsweek story was attached to riots, deaths and cries for jihad generated by the radical Moslem clerics.

Wrong, even General Myers said that the story had little to do wit the "riots"

2.The fact that the story was almost immediately understood to be false

. The story is not false as has been shown by other sources, rather Newsweeks source refused to stand up to the fall out. Of course the false sense of outrage by PPJ nad his merry band of admin butt kissers help to overshadow the Blair memos. The fact that Newsweek was on page 1 and the Blair memos on page 13 tells you all you need to know about the US corporate media.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#11)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

Flawed logic, for two reasons. 1. The Newsweek story was attached to riots, deaths and cries for jihad generated by the radical Moslem clerics. Speaking of flawed logic, I will suggest that it may have been the desecration of the Koran that caused riots, deaths, and cries for jihad rather than the Newseek coverage of same. 2.The fact that the story was almost immediately understood to be false. Hmmm.. I think it is very likely that desecration of the Koran has taken place repeatedly as part of the humiliation, degradation, and torture of the prisoners. The Newsweek story may be flawed reporting, but I don't think most of us "understood" it to be false. Jim, are you going on record here that you believe the Koran has not been desecrated in the interrogations and detention of muslim prisoners? It's a simple yes or no question. Do you think the Koran has been desecrated by interrogators and jail guards to offend muslim prisoners?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#12)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

So, Jim, these killings of prisoners at Bagram, do you "understand" these to be isolated incidents by rotten apples or the application of the policies set by the chain of command?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#13)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

This hits the mark

As intent as Republicans were to impeach President Bill Clinton for lying about a sexual affair, they have a blind eye for President Bush’s far more serious lies. Bush’s lies have caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people, injured and maimed tens of thousands more, devastated a country, destroyed America’s reputation, caused 1 billion Muslims to hate America, ruined our alliances with Europe, created a police state at home, and squandered $300 billion dollars and counting.

Paul Craig Roberts

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#14)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

from the same link

America’s reputation is so damaged that not even our puppets can stand the heat. Anti-American riots, which have left Afghan cities and towns in flames and hospitals overflowing with casualties, have forced Bush’s Afghan puppet, “President” Hamid Karzai, to assert his independence from his U.S. overlords. In a belated act of sovereignty, Karzai asserted authority over heavy-handed U.S. troops whose brutal and stupid ways sparked the devastating riots. Karzai demanded control of U.S. military activities in Afghanistan and called for the return of the Afghan detainees who are being held at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#15)
by aahpat on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

RE: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths We call it tough love in America. ""Physical and sexual abuse of prisoners, similar to what has been uncovered in Iraq, takes place in American prisons with little public knowledge or concern, according to corrections officials, inmates and human rights advocates." Source: New York Times [links deleted, links that are not in html format skew the site.] America has been torturing and maiming its own children in the name of the drug war, (the paramilitary arm of Bill Bennett's culture war), for thirty-five years. I don't understand why anyone in America is surprised. tough love, its the American way. Paul in LA: Funny that you should bring up Nixon since he started the modern day police state with the drug war laws that were directed more at American nonconformity and dissent than at addiction. Any American willing to demonstrate nonconformity to the right wing hegemony by deciding to use an illicit substance might as easily decide to disagree with other dogma and dictates of America's one party system. Such people are forced into rehab gulags for retraining. If that fails they are given mandatory minimums [inflammatory overly explicit text deleted] in a drug war over crowded prison. The intellectual training grounds for Abu Ghraib and other American torture centers. Systemic or endemic is putting it mildly. Culture war indoctrination tools and techniques is more accurate.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#16)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

SD - The General has recanted that statement. You really need to quit flogging it. And you have no proof beyond a single unknown source, who decided to admit they had lied, and some blathering by other unreliable unverifiable sources. But given that we have Korans in the libraries of the world, in the possesion of various non-moslems, perhaps the Generals comments were more accurate than not. Either way, these radical moslem clerics who called for riots have not apologized for the deaths. I ask, are they not guilty? What kind of religion tolerates such actions? It is said that we should be concerned about not offending the Moslem culture. What nonsense. Why should we care about offending people who do such things as this? Who stone women? Where male family members do honor killings? Where are the moslem moderates? Why aren't they on TV and radio. Doesn't CAIR have enough money for an ad saying honor killings are wrong? And why do you not condemn their actions, instead only finding fault with the US?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#17)
by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

Jim and his Newsweek blaming supporters justify their method of racist denial by killing the messenger. As usual.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#18)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

CA - I have no idea as to whether or not the Koran has been used in such a manner. I will go on record as saying that any religion that riots over the destruction of a book has some serious problems. And BTW - Can you tell me why the moslem community let's Korans be in libraries and/or owned by non-believers? This was a tempest in a teapot. Used as an excuse by the radical moslems to riot and attack. Newsweeks sin was in not realizing what would happen and not vetting the story.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#19)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

This morning's apologia brought to you by )Aka Jim(, the best in Stop-think® installation. One simple application, and two hours of delicated surgery, and murdering tens to hundreds of thousands of innocent people is 'attacking America,' when murdering tens to hundreds of thousands of innocent people IS )Bush( attacking America. In honor of these fine )apologists( for war crimes and illegal, trumped up war for profit, I recommend that we use the patented, b*tt-cheeks )( parenthesis, to properly mark the true confines of this sort of Lying to America Performance. It's not LIES, it's what comes out )between the cheeks(.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#20)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

more blatent racists comments by PPJ, condeming an entire religion of 1.2 billion for the actions of a few while at the same time not condeming actions of this admin. By your logic, then we should condem all catholics because of the actions of those in N. Ireland. I mean we do want to be consistent. BTW of course Myers recanted as soon as Rumsfeld could get to a phone.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#21)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

PIL - So, tell us. Where are the moderate Moslems? That simple question effectively destroys your rant. SD - What we should have done, or do about the IRA does not answer the question: Where are the moderate Moslems?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#22)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

It's not LIES, it's what comes out )between the cheeks(. )WHERE are the moderate Moslems?( How come no one is throwing flowers as we rape their innocent country for profit and airbases? Splattered against their kitchen walls, splattered against their kitchen walls, )Jim(. Your answers are blowin' in the radioactive wind.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#23)
by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

Jim, Get out of the segregated area where you live. We have plenty of moderate muslims. My son attends school with them, I drive past two mosques here regularly. What would you have them do? What did you do when supremicist christians killed judges, clinic workers, blew up the Murrah Bldg.? Did you take to the streets? Did you do anything but sit on your butt and say "Wow, I don't agree with that"? Do you have any memory of what it was like like to be Muslim in this country after 9/11? It was constant fear and lots of remarks, threats. And where are the moderate Christians standing up to Bush and his pending Stem Cell veto? I see a few, but where are the masses. Bush's reason for his veto are so mentally retarded they're off the chart. In his words, he's against "science that destroys life in order to save life." Now try to reconcile that with a "war on terror" that he well knew would slaughter thousands of innocents in his simple-minded belief that it would make things better (i.e. save lives). This man has absolutely no moral compass, and his administration follows, as does the nation. I have no doubt these same "brains" think torture and abuse actually work. They have no imaginations or creativity, so all they have is the brute force of the intellectually empty.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#24)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

PIL - So where are the moderate Moslems? Surely you can show me a statement made in the MSM decrying the actions of the clerics causing the deaths of innocent rioters. SD - BTW, I condemned the religion, not the person. I know that is too subtle for you, but please try.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#25)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

"Where are the moderate Moslems?" Well, they've been a heck of a lot more visible than the moderate Republicans, lately . . .

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#26)
by aw on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

Moderate Muslims are the people who just want to live their lives and raise their families in peace. There are about a billion of them.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#27)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

aw - True, but the problem is that they are being represented to the world by a bunch of terrorists. It is their problem of fix, and if they continue to let the terrorists define them the situation will only get worse. That is a sad statement. It is also true.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#28)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

dadler - Nice side step. The issue isn't stem cell research, but the fact that religious fanatics in the moslem world has been attacking the west for about 26 years. It kept getting worse, and worse and worse. On 9/11 they managed to get our attention. As for "moderate," I am referring, as you well know, to the so-called community leaders, etc. All they have to do is call a press conference. But they do not. By belief is that they are not convinced that the US will win, so they are lying low. I also believe that the US Left's many comments leave the impression that the US will not fight to the end over this issue, and the Moslem population is uncertain of what the political solution will be. That is why, in war, you must be eiher with me or against me. It cannot be fought with reservation and opposition.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#29)
by Sailor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

As more abuses have come to light, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, and other administration officials have continually condemned them and attempted to make it clear to military personel that such actions are intolerable. The were shocked, shocked I tell you, that gambling was going on in that place ... at the same time they were approving torture and unlimited secret detention of citizens. Unfortunately, some extremists on the left have attempted to defend the Lyndie England and others by utilizing the old "just following orders" argument that was rejected at Nuremberg. No one I know of thought england should get a free ride, we just thought her superiors should also be on trial.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#30)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

EVIDENCE was presented that England was oxygen-deprived at birth and had brain damage -- part of which is apparently a speech defect. If she has mental deficits, then I think her actions should be considered in that light. WHAT'S RUMSFELD'S PROBLEM??? 1. Total failure on 9i1 following his changing of NORAD's standing orders, while denying that change for two years. 2. LIED about the costs, length, purpose, need, and justification of the illegal invasion. 3. Undermanned the invasion, did NO planning for the occupation, grossly underestimated the dangers, got a lot of soldiers killed for no good reason, and said that the Iraqis would throw flowers. 4. Involved in massive warcrimes. Authorized torture, and is involved in human trafficking, torture boats and planes, and arming rightwing dictators worldwide. Lyndie England has a hangnail, compared to Don Rumsfeld's stinking buboes and mutated head. And what )Jim( is calling 'just following orders' was her SUPERIOR OFFICER, who was conveniently also having sex with her. Total breakdown of military discipline -- CENTCOM at work. The continued )bs denials( of what this whole operation is quite clearly, is just more of the winger )me or your damn eyes( propagandizing.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#31)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:16 PM EST

PIL - Perhaps you will show where I commented that she was "just following orders." Of you can't? What a surprise. We caught Paulie in a bigie again.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#32)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

dadler - This one's for you.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#33)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

True, but the problem is that they are being represented to the world by a bunch of terrorists.

That's our problem too, as US citizens, PPJ. The Neocons are every bit as bad as our former CIA asset Bin Laden. Hell, they've killed thousands more than him. The rest of the world sees this obvious reality, while you spin backwards at the speed of light defending them and their murderous policies.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#34)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

And there you have it. )Non-responsive( Because if you have to respond, then you have already lost. It's like the kindergarten bully -- and they think that they can continue to hotly deny all accusations, without ever responding to them. Answer any of the 4 Rumsfeld categories of failure in his office. Respond to any of it. Nevermind the coup and the conspiracy against the Constitution, the corruption, and all the laughs he's had at the expense of the innocent, dying in their homes in full view of their shattered families. Liberty isn't a torturer -- and she's supposed to be impartial, but you don't know her, Jim. The apologia was weird and dissociative two years ago, and has passed grotesque quite a while back. Just like the liar-in-chief that you fellate.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#35)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

Regarding moderate muslims: I will agree with Jim that there is not a huge number of moderate muslims speaking out against attacks on the US these days. How times have changed. Remember what happened after September 11th? Remember how the US had the sympathy and support of virtually the entire world? Hard to imagine that this was the case, but here's a few quotes to jog your memories:

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama): "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts." 2001-SEP-15.

Shiek Mohammed Sayyed al-Tantawi, leader of Egypt's great mosque, Al-Azhar: "[The attacks] will be punished on the day of judgment."

Fatwa, signed by: Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar; Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt; Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt; Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria; Fahmi Houaydi Islamic scholar, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council: "The terrorists acts, considered by Islamic law,... [constitute] the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)." 2001-SEP-27.

Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London: "Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime." Cited in Arab News, 2001-SEP-28.

Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan: "It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people." Cited in New York Times, 2001-SEP-28.

Abdullah II, King of Jordan and descendent of the Prophet Muhammad: "What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in." ; cited in Middle East Times, 2001-SEP-28. 2

So, Jim (et al), what do you think has changed since then? What do you think might have happened to make not just the muslims but almost the entire world change it's opinion? Could it have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the US has lied to, tortured, bombed, and occupied a Muslim country that had NOTHING to do with the attacks which generated such an outpouring of sympathy around the world? Or is it just because a load of pinko commies in the media hate freedom? Actions have consequences.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#36)
by john horse on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

Karzai asks the right questions. What right does our government have to arrest and abuse foreign citizens in their own country? If Afghanistan is a truly sovereign country, wouldn't we have to get the permission of the Afghani government before we conduct military operations? If Afghanistan were a truly sovereign country, shouldn't these abuses be investigated and/or tried in Afghani courts?

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#37)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

The Bush response is to attack Karzai on the drug issues and to try to change the subject.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#38)
by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

Of Course, Jim is right in one respect. Fundamentalist Christians dont riot when there is a desecration of the bible. They riot when people read "origin of species" or "Catcher in the rye"

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#39)
by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

I acquired the Shambhala Dragon edition of "The Art of War" recently, which contains commentary by various Chinese scholars, and one section has increasingly become relevant to me in recent days: Master Sun: "Therefore use these assessments for comparison to find out what the conditions are. That is to say, which political leadership has the Way?........Whose discipline is effective?..........Whose officers and soldiers are the better trained? Whose system of rewards and punishments is clearer? This is how you can know who will win. Lin Quan: "A political leadership that has the Way will surely have a military leadership that has intelligence and ability." Du Mu: "Ask yourself which political leadership--your own or that of your enemy--is able to reject flattereres and draw close to the wise." Du You: The Way means virtue. It is first necessary to compare the political leadership of nations at war." Mei Yaochen: "The question regarding political leadership is, who is able to win the hearts of the people." Ho Yanxi: "The ancient classic of documents says, "the one who treats me well is my leader, the one who treats me cruelly is my enemy." The question is, which side has a humane goverment, and which side has a cruel goverment." ....... Cao Cai: "Set up rules that are not to be broken, do not fail to punish any offenders." Du Mu: "When it comes to establishing rules and redgulations, everyone, high and low, should be treated alike." Du You: "Compare whose orders are the more effective--whose subordinates do not dare to disobey." Mei Yoachen: "Make everyone equal under the law."

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#40)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

I wonder how PPJ et all would respond if there were reports of similar torture (oops, sorry - I mean abuse. Yeah, that's the ticket...) being performed on Americans? Since I'm ignored by their ilk on a regular basis (possibly for using the big words that they have to ask mommy to explain to them) I would love to hear from any of the more rational, er, I mean liberal, people on this site, who think that our problems with humane treatment of innocent civilians caught up at the wrong place and the wrong time (or lack thereof) will come back and bite us on the a$$, so to speak? Alternatively, can any of these Bush Fellators come up with a logical reason why we should do this to others? Particularly others who are innocent of any crimes or involvement with AQ? Also - if you stop reading the kimchee that PPJ regularly spreads around here, you notice that he has a special talent for pushing others' buttons. You also notice that he rarely has anything in the way of a rational argument or facts to back up his flights of fancy.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#41)
by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

One thing is for certain, Bush will leave office with as much blood on his hands as Nixon or Johnson.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#42)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

Paulie - I am still waiting for you to prove the biggie tale you told. And BTW - That's Justice that is impartial. (:Tom:) Gee, it is a real honor for me to answer questions from the most noble, intelligent, not to mention egotistical and arrogant, Tom. Dear Tommy. What you don't understand is that the terrorist you so love to defend are just that, terrorists. They fight a guerilla war, yet you want to treat them as if they deserved to be treated as if they were real troops from a real country. They are not. And historically captured guerillas have been killed very quickly after capture. That we do not speaks to what we think is our good side, but to them it demonstrates weakness. As to what would happen if they captured one of our troops, I think you can probably find some of the beheading sites on the Internet showing them sawing off heads while shouting "God is Great!" Is that a clue you can understand, oh most intelligent one? Now, I do hope the above answers your inane prattle, and I tried to use some really big words. But, alas, I had to keep it as simple as possible, seeing as how you do not even understand the basics... of what's going on in this world wide war on terror. And Tommy, fermented cabbage or not, these folks are guerillas, are terrorists and are counting on you to see if you can facilitate a political victory for them as the Left did for the communists in Vietnam. Unfortunately, this time we have the Internet and cable news channels instead of a 21st Century single source MSM. Life does get tedious, eh? Roger - A very nice attempt, I suppose, at humor. If not, then you have completely joined The Dark Side

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#43)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

Ian - Sympathy is found in the dictionary between shi* and syphilis. Personally I find no use for any of the three. And if we must be victims to be worthy, then to heck with those who demand such an obnoxious payment for their help. My only hope is to be able to watch their reactions when we tell them to carry their own water in the future.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#44)
by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

For PPj to complain of someone being arrogant is the classic pot and kettle. Its not clear by most definitions that the majority of the people fighting against the US in Iraq are terrorists. Now its very important for the right to describe them as such since it is the crux of the argument for justifying torture. The use of car bombs does not automatically make them terrorists. Since the majority of attacks are directed at the police or police recruits and the like which are representatives of the state makes them a military target. The fact that civilians also get killed also is irrelevant since the US calls such deaths when inflicted by cluster bombs collateral damage. Now the foreigners who are a small minority may be legitimtely labelled terrorists since they sem to be the ones responsible for the abductions and murder of non-combatants. But then again one is forced to consider whether the indiscriminate dropping of cluster bombs and the like on civilian populations is also a terrorist act.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#45)
by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:17 PM EST

Ernesto - Bet you thought I missed: "The Neocons are every bit as bad as our former CIA asset Bin Laden." Well, you first told us that we deserved to be attacked on 9/11, and now you close the loop on why you feel that way. You have perfectly defined yourself. SD - Meet Ernesto. He can join you in my quotation Hall of Shame. You now write, "The use of car bombs does not automatically make them terrorists." Huh? Do you actually believe such tripe? Are you incapable of seeing that they are trying to terrorize the populace into giving up and turning the government over to them? DA - Guy, you are watching too many Kung Fu movies.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#46)
by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:18 PM EST

Well, PPJ, if I may be so bold, I would suggest that you've probably watched too many John Wayne movies. Oh, and it was so funny I forgot to laugh. Can't respond to my post on the merits, so you come up with a joke that a 4th grader could be proud of. Good work. Now, if you'll just work on your act, we'll get you out in the Poconos in a week or so, just in time for the June vacation season..........

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#47)
by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:18 PM EST

Jim, I personally have had several racists tell me that bombing SCHOOL BUSES, like Allawi did in 1995 for the CIA, isn't terrorism. I'm SURE, given your reply above, that you disagree. He also shot 6 untried detainees at point-blank range with his own pistol -- in front of the US military. You disagree with that, I'm sure as well. So your only problem at this point is handling THIS moral contradiction: "Are you incapable of seeing that they are trying to terrorize the populace"? Because apparently, even quite obviously, YOU ARE. You wear the white hat, and you ignore the mountain of pigsh*t Bush has left behind you. For all the devotion you show your party, I have to say that I have NEVER accepted everything ANYONE in my party has done. And yet, you do. You admire a mass-murderer who lied the country into a war he has profited from -- a war he NEVER intended to go well for our troops, because he needs a DEEPENING conflict to cover for his crimes and predations on our Treasury. Here, let me mispelle a word, so you'll have something to focus on instead of the obvious truth.

Re: Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai (none / 0) (#48)
by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:59:18 PM EST

Well, you first told us that we deserved to be attacked on 9/11, and now you close the loop on why you feel that way.

Please provide a quote of mine to back up what you say, thanks.

Top Brass Implicated in Bagram Deaths : Karzai Demands Action

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