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Patriot License Plates

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue May 10, 2005 at 02:37:40 PM EST
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Think Progress reports that members of the Oklahoma national guard are so desperate for body armor the state is going to produce special license plates to raise funds to buy the equipment for them.

With a $400 billion federal military budget, why do we have to resort to this to provide troops with basic protection?

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    Patriot License Plates | 28 comments (28 topical)
    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    Because our air, naval and bombardament superiority come at a hefty price. Moving funds away from weaponry and air power to replace vehicles with "better armor" would be disastrous. Our air superiority and missile capabilities are what has minimized deaths in the last two wars we have fought in. Shifting resources to save a couple hundred lives now, could have severe implications should another war break out and we run short on missiles or bombs or planes. Can't prevent every combat death and I would imagine if you polled the military you would find that most would rather maintain status quo as it relates to our ability to annihilate our opponents from the air and sea before hitting the ground.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    It's far more than $400 billion. It's the old story: "Fund education -- let the military hold a bake sale." On 911, the bloated, no-accountability Pentagon managed to field two or three fighter jets in time to miss all targets and allow the worst attack on the US since 1812. The people mainly responsible were given: 1) Medals from Preznit Bush 2) A 'Get Out of Tora Bora' and go free card. "Osama bin Laden? I don't even think about him much any more." -- George "Read My Lips -- Dead or Alive" Bush

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    What a lie, JL. Take the tens of millions going into the utterly unproven Star Wars boondoggle, and buy our boys some armor. This is a volunteer military. We spend MILLIONS training these soldiers, and then welch on the basic body protection to PROTECT OUR FINEST. You lot say you support the troops, but obviously that's just something you say to feel good about yourselves. Bush has raped our military; killing off or maiming tens of thousands of our best, most well-trained, high-tech soldiers, because he DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN. When Rumsfeld said that the problem was the manufacturers couldn't make more armor, the Humvee up-armor company told the press that they had received no orders for more armor, and were anxiously waiting to put their factories to work since they had PLENTY of capacity. Rumsfeld lied; our soldiers died. You support the POLICY, JL, NOT the troops. Get it straight.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    Uh, isn't the American Government supposed to arm the f#*king soldiers it sends into combat? Or are they resorting to the old British "buy a commission" style army? "Got dough? Buy a gun, a uniform, buy some freakin' body armor, you're now in the American military!!!"

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    Paul, I don't support the policy or the war, but when it comes to resource allocation, as a vet, I liked the fact that our air force could bomb the bejesus out of anyone before foot soldiers marched in. As far as 400 billion, do the research, I have posted many times that our budget should be 1/4 of what it is. I stand by my comments and stand by the troops, not just for today but for the next conflict as well.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:56 PM EST
    No one's saying you don't stand behind the troops, but when are you going to admit that this administration went "Keystone Kops" in Iraq, and they're still running around with their hair on fire? Why does any criticism of U.S. military action always lead people to accuse the critics of not supporting the troops? Wouldn't the best way to support them be to NOT SEND THEM TO PHONY WARS TO DIE?????

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Um, blagh, PIL accused Jl of not supporting the troops...

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    "You lot say you support the troops, but obviously that's just something you say to feel good about yourselves." - PIL

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Blaghdaddy apologises...he was distracted by a crying baby and got the gist of the comment wrong... But the point remains that too many people try to intimidate others from criticising the administration's criminal foreign policy by blackmailing them with the "gotta support the troops, man." Good for David Putty wearing Devil's make-up...not good for the troops...

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Paul, I don't support the policy or the war, but when it comes to resource allocation, as a vet, I liked the fact that our air force could bomb the bejesus out of anyone before foot soldiers marched in. Well, we bombed the bejesus out of Saddam. Now our soldiers are occupying Iraq. The insurgents are deeply embedded into every city, as I understand it. So bombing the bejesus out of the cities isn't really going to help protect the soldiers, now is it? I can understand that aircraft are not cheap and that we need good planes. Fine. Things cost what they cost (when Halliburton's not involved, anyway). But you're telling me that we need to spend all that money on the stupid missile defense program that hasn't even been proven to work?? And I'm sure you've noticed that the military is failing to meet its recruitment targets. Gee, do you think that people might be getting the message, "I'm sorry guys (and gals), but we don't value you enough to protect your innards"? I appreciate, and share your belief that the military's budget should be less than what it is (and I suspect just about everyone does here as well) but you have to look at what the money is being spent on and what the situation is, no?

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Rocket propelled grenades have done severe damage to the armaments that the US military uses. 28,000 wounded and over 1600 dead in a two year period from a deployment of 140,000 troops is a high casualty rate. When the insurgents attack a group of troops in Iraq, they don't do it for practice. When all of the troops are on the ground dead and wounded and rescue is a difficult task, you're losing, not winning. A 400 billion dollar military budget year in an d year out over 20 years is 8 trillion dollars. That's how long we've been fighting this war and maybe longer. Now, special license plates are stamped to fund better armament? I can find better ways to fight a war and not spend that kind of money to do it. Sounds like a rip-off funding policy. Everything is hunky dory, nobody questions how the money is spent. Looks like they fritter it out the window. Who suffers because of it? Who pays for it all? Who benefits? Not me, and I doubt if you do, too.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Why not ask Halliburton to spring for a few shields with the $71 billion they just got from Dick and George for defrauding the gov't? Are they hiring?

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#13)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    It appears out government has no real interest in any kind of basic protection for any of our troops, isn't it funny that billion of dollars go for all kinds of bull, but when we are in a war, "a state must raise funds", all i can say is this must not be making money for the bush family. oh yes where is the body armor made? when you find that one out do some checking into who made the armor 10 years ago and who got the contract and how that was done.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    "Posted by Jlvngstn: "Paul, I don't support the policy or the war," You and I both support the troops, then. I lost five uncles to WWII, so I have always taken the side of the grunts (who fight within the UCMJ, at least) over the brass. "but when it comes to resource allocation, as a vet, I liked the fact that our air force could bomb the bejesus...As far as 400 billion, do the research, I have posted many times that our budget should be 1/4 of what it is." That is an utter contradiction. You think the Pentagon budget should be 25% of what it is, but you think that the military should buy bombs over body armor. Wha? Take the 75% you say they can cut, and buy the soldiers the body armor. 50,000 troops went to war with no Kevlar -- the Army War College said that 1/4 at least were killed because of that criminal negligence by the Pentagon/DoD. That's at least 400 soldiers, 400 miliion-dollar soldiers with high-tech skills, splatterd all over Iraq because Rumsfeld likes doing 'it' on the cheap. What is the economy on that? If they won't spend $1,000 per soldier to protect them, why waste millions training them? Cannon fodder don't need no stinking armor. Not only that, transport them in tanks or armored carriers superior to the Stryker. Certainly do not put our troops into unarmored pseudo-military pickup trucks ('Humvees') in a hot warzone. And do not use our troops for imperialism, goes without saying (all too often).

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#15)
    by Patrick on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Who here commenting on behalf of issuing body armor to soldiers knows the difference between a IIa and IIIa kevlar vest? Probably not a one of ya, because if you did, you'd know they were virtually useless. Neither will stop a direct fire rifle round from the smallest caliber rifle, and they are not designed to protect against explosives. PILA, I would like to see a link that give the 400 less fatalities statistic, because I doubt the vests would be that effective. When I was in the military and in a combat environment in Panama, we didn't even wear the flak jackets. The military doesn't stop you from buying your own gear and many people do, but it's more a question of personal preference than negligence on behalf of the military.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Don't know if I have a IIa or a IIIa, but it doesn't matter now that I know they're no good. I might as well throw mine in the trash.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    "PILA, I would like to see a link that give the 400 less fatalities statistic, because I doubt the vests would be that effective." It's not just vests, it's unarmored Humvees as well. The figure from the AWC was 1/4 of the fatalities. I'm sure you can find that study on their website. "When I was in the military and in a combat environment in Panama, we didn't even wear the flak jackets." Plenty of soldiers stupidly refuse to use protective gear. That's not a plus. Nor does it excuse the military for fostering that attitude. "The military doesn't stop you from buying your own gear and many people do, but it's more a question of personal preference than negligence on behalf of the military." The hell it is. What a HUGE lie that is, Patrick. You should be proud of yourself, eh? By underdeployment, by underarmoring (initially only 2% of the vehicles; now maybe 15%), by failing to guard the munitions dumps, by failing to plan for the occupation, by failing to train or prepare the troops and Pentagon for a non-critical engagement, by failing to supply water, housing, and even ammo at critical points, by following Rumsfeld and using 1 tank battalion rather than the normal FIVE (and thereby losing troops to guarding the flanks of the 300 mile long deployment to Bagdad, which several military authorities like the late Hackworth called the worst military blunder in the last 30 years), by ordering the use of amphetamines by pilots who don't need them (or who are over-tasked due to underdeployment), etc., etc., etc., the entire USPNAC conspiracy are guilty of criminal negligence in the deployment of OUR military. It doesn't belong to Bush or Rumsfeld, and it isn't for fascist involvements in the BEEHIVE of the Middle East. Try not to lie so much -- maybe you won't lose what's left of your brains.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    I think the study referred to above was about vehicle armor, not body armor. And I have to admit that I don't personally know the difference, so I'm happy to be educated on the subject. Nonetheless, I think those vests do protect against snipers... and apparently lives could have been saved with tougher Humvees. The larger point remains, I think.
    Even if the Humvee problem escaped the attention of senior military officials, it certainly got noticed quickly at the unit level, where maintenance battalions watched one blood-stained vehicle after another come back from patrol.
    I really hope not to read more stories with paragraphs like that. Sadly, I see no sign of things changing anytime soon.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    "The 9-pound RBA vest gives the wearer full Level IIIA ballistic resistance (proof against handgun rounds up to .44 Magnum), along with protection from fragmentation threat to torso front, back, sides and shoulders. With the 7.5-pound ceramic armor plates placed in the front and back chest pockets, the wearer is protected from rounds up to .30 caliber armor piercing ammunition (Level IV ballistic resistance)." Rating of armor

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    We've all heard the stories...$500 hammers and toilet seats, the Bradley Fighting Vehicle boondoogle. The money is there, but theft is rampant. The greedy have no shame, sending our soldiers to battle with subpar equipment for a little extra profit. It's the same throughout govt., no fiscal accountability and rampant theft.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Web- I am all for an independent audit that investigates pentagon spending. As far as the body count goes, in 1968 nearly 17,000 americans died in the tet offensive which is significantly higher than what we have lost in total in this conflict. Insurgents are killing/wounding soldiers but no where near the rate of the TET. When they had the offensive on Fallujah, we had minimal casualties thanks to air superiority of our Air Force. Taking away 400 Million to provide "body armor" or reinforce vehicles sounds simple however, where does it come from? How many lives is it really going to save? How many lives will it cost? If they take the money from "bunker buster" bomb making and Iran decides we are stretched too thin and partners with North Korea to launch an offensive, I for one want the bunk busters available. Paul- Relative to what I think the gov't should be spending on defense and how they are spending their current dollars, it is two different arguments. I think defense spending should be less profitable for the defense contractors. They should be making a lot less money to manufacture war materials. I also think that our spending is out of control relative to the rest of the world and we could cut it by 75% and still lead the world by far in military might.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#22)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    et al - The Humvee was not originally designed for armour, so it took a while to catch up. I understand that this has happened. PIL - Patrick is exactly correct in that many military people prefer to purchase some of their own gear. It is tolerated, within limits, because comfort is an important part of performance. In my day it was boots and survival gear. You know, I think it funny that a guy who probably has never been any closer to the military than driving by an Army Surplus store brings out his patiented "you lie" charge about gear and what people do. BTW - Also in my day crews were issued one flak vest to wear, and most people purchased/cumshawed a second one to set on. I don't remember the Left saying a word. Somehow, if there hadn't been a shortage for awhile, and people buying what they wanted instead of taking standard issue, I don't think the Left would be saying anything now. PIL, since you are so concerned, you should apply for West Point. That way you can effect some changes. kdog - Some of the secrets about cost of military equipment is: Low volume. Requirements for spare parts packed and shipped for long term storage. Special specifications not required for standard commercail equipment. Assignment of, tracking and updating federal stock numbers. Very complex, detailed and costly contract administration. Result: Many companies opt out of bidding and doing business with the government when milspec is required. Result: Reduced competition. Result. The price is higher.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Nice list Jim...I believe it, but excessive profiteering and waste is part of the problem as well.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Posted by Jlvngstn: "As far as the body count goes, in 1968 nearly 17,000 americans died in the tet offensive IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TET. And you know it. "Paul- I think defense spending should be less profitable for the defense contractors." Besides the point. With so much slush in the fund, the non-armoring of vehicles and soldiers is criminal negligence, and a violation of our national ethic. Posted by PPJ: "The Humvee was not originally designed for armour, so it took a while to catch up. I understand that this has happened." The USE of the Humvee in combat situations has been roundly attacked since they were invented. BY THE WAR COLLEGES. As patently unsafe to soldiers, interfering with their missions (by getting them blown up). "PIL - Patrick is exactly correct in that many military people prefer to purchase some of their own gear." That's not the point and you know it. This is not REPLACEMENT of spec mil equipment. This is failure to support the troops. "You know, I think it funny" It ain't funny. And your red herring supply is exhausted. Rumsfeld LIED to the troops about why they weren't being provisioned. Bush lied to the country about the care of our troops. Centcom has lied throughout about the purposes of its mission. It's a layer cake of treason, and you guys are just the icing. 1,600 dead soldiers; 10,000 maimed. WMD? ZERO. Unarmored: 50,000 troops. Unarmored vehicles during the invasion: 98%. No one ever resigns or is fired in Bushworld, unless they try to protest the lies and the negligent destruction of innocent lives.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Paul in La..La Bush has raped our military; I know you as a person that likes to jump at the chance to blame GW for ALL the worlds ills... but... The guy that severly cut military spending....(closed many bases) was Bill Clinton. GW inherited much of this mess from him.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Sure it does Paul. During the TET offensive in 1968 nearly 17k people died in that year. Air superiority is what is minimizing casualties on our side as are the mass bombs we have in stock. People are going to die in wars, it sucks. No matter how much you arm them and give them "protective gear" some are going to die. I take greater issue with those folks buying those stupid "support our troops" stickers for their cars that are made in Indonesia with zero profits going to our troops. Kinda silly to have a sticker that says "support our troops" with no proceeds going to actually support them. Want me on your side, start a program to funnel all proceeds from the sale of those stupid stickers to the armed forces personnel.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jlvngstn on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Base closures were predominantly in the US, hardly makes us vunlerable. I think the two great bodies of wate provide some assistance in that matter.

    Re: Patriot License Plates (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    BB blames the Clenis™, once again. But this invasion WASN'T NECESSARY, there was plenty of time to prepare, train the troops, get enough armor, and do it RIGHT, if it passed the requirements (which it didn't -- so Bush LIED out his cakehole). Undeploying and underprovisioning is NOT SUPPORTING THE TROOPS. And here are you bohunks, once again, PROVING that when you said you support the troops, you were LYING. You support the policy -- screw the troops. JL, Tet was a disaster in military planning -- a gigantic screwup. If you want to compare the Iraq invasion with Tet, so be it, they are both truly awful Pentagon rapes of our soldiers. But this is about PROVISIONING, not about Tet or any other disastrous calamity. And it is about LYING to the troops and their families about WHY and WHEN and THAT their family members are not getting equipped to fight in a war. All the worse that it is a war for profit, having nothing to do with why Americans sign up to defend the country. Bush put 2,000 troops in to get Bin Laden, screwed the pooch, and then rolled 150,000 troops into Iraq-- 1/3 of which had no Kevlar-- which he had planned on doing, and only needed a PRETEXT. 98% of the vehicles were unarmored Humvees and other CIVILIAN-style trucks. Thanks, George. If you see nothing wrong with the disproportionality of those deployments, and the obvious results of not armoring the troops, while allowing 280 tons of high-explosive, 4,000 shoulder-fired missiles, and 650,000 pounds of ammo to go missing, then you see nothing wrong with anything. Sending the Iraqi troops home with their AK-47s was also a real weird move (Thanks, Bremer). BUYING them new ones, at a cost to US taxpayers of $50 million or so dollars -- ridiculous. Bush burns stacks of big bills in his barbeque -- details at 11. As for the car ribbons, my view is that yellow ribbons are FOR FAMILY MEMBERS only. Those ones with the flag on them, etc., they aren't the real deal, and they are put on cars for a whole range of reasons having BUPKIS to do with protecting or honoring the troops, or else there would be a firestorm of protest about how our troops are being treated, and how they are being TREASONOUSLY WASTED by Bush.

    Patriot License Plates | 28 comments (28 topical)