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Too Late to Stop National ID

By Jeralyn, Section Legislation
Posted on Tue May 10, 2005 at 05:23:10 PM EST
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It's too late. The Senate has passed the bill by a unanimous vote. It now goes to Bush for his signature.

Update: Raw Story reports the Daily News tomorrow will have an about an impending court battle over the Real ID Act. Also, a New York Judge has ruled that the state cannot deny drivers' licenses to undocumented residents.

And Cheers to the U.S. Conference of Bishops. They launched a national campaign to support immigrants today.

Comprehensive immigration reform—including a broad legalization program—is the goal of the national campaign. Catholic organizations which have come together to launch the campaign intend to mobilize a growing network of Catholic institutions and individuals in support of its goals. The campaign also marks a new effort to educate and galvanize Catholics on the need for “justice for immigrants.”

As we reported here, the campaign stresses four principles.

  • legalization for the undocumented;
  • expanded opportunities for legal entry for work and family reunification;
  • establishment of an appropriate and effective temporary workers program;
  • and re-establishment of due process rights and other legal safeguards.

More from the Washington Post here.

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original post

The Senate hasn't voted on the Real ID Act. Arthur Silber at Light of Reason says it's not too late to stop it. Rep. Ron Paul tells you why it's bad. Then Go here and fax your senator. [hat tip Avedon Carol at Sideshow]

Arthur says,

Once we go down this road, there’s no turning back—at least, probably not until a second American Revolution. Perhaps those future citizens will take their rights more seriously than many of us do today—if they have to fight to secure them still one more time.

TalkLeft's view: This is a quick fix that won't do anything to stop terrorists or enhance our safety. It will only further diminish our privacy rights. Can anyone say, "Your Papers Please?"

Update: Ryan Singal has more.

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    Too Late to Stop National ID | 25 comments (25 topical)
    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#1)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    “Perhaps those future citizens will take their rights more seriously than many of us do today … “ Can I get an amen from all you newfound states-rights small-government Democrats. I think I’m going to be sick.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    This is a terribly cynical move on the repub's part. Taking advantage of the war and the troops to slam through utterly unwieldy, unworkable, and bureaucracy-choking immigration legislation is not just hardball poltics. Hardball is one thing, moral vacancy is another. As close to a "Do you still beat your wife?" kind of vote as you get. While I detest most of the dem's lack of political courage, this kind of bootstrapping is done specifically to SILENCE debate, to put the fear of the smear into those who would debate -- how DARE they vote against our troops and support illegal immigrants!! And with the way the MSM is these days, you're not gonna get much help there. They're too busy finding scandals, or kissing ass, or being cowed, or worrying about the perks their next contract.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    "Can I get an amen from all you newfound states-rights small-government Democrats. I think I’m going to be sick." So which is worse? 1. The fact that the party that claims to be the party of state's rights and small government AND has the ability to block this bill chooses not to do so, in fact, highly touts it instead. 2. The fact that the party in favor of big national databases of citizens is in favor of a bill that created a big national datbase of citizens. Also, which is easier to believe? 1. That the federal government can be trusted to keep a database of information (such as social security) separate from Homeland Security. or 2. That a private company, say PriceWaterhouseCoopers, can be expected to keep separate it's revenue-driving Consulting arm from its Auditing arm? The answer, is you cannot trust either. You're right, PW, that we've given away our freedoms. I'll also stipulate that most Democrats don't draw a distinction between compulsory information gathering and programs allowing citizens to volunteer private information to government in exchange for government benefits (i.e. healthcare, education grants, etc.) There is a need for standardization and uniformity of the mundane details of regulating interstate commerce in order to prevent States from enacting local economic protectionism detrimental to the nation as a whole (and in the past, efforts to thwart civil rights legislation). However, it's clear that this is not the motivation/spirit of this bill.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#4)
    by jarober on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    TL, you say: " TalkLeft's view: This is a quick fix that won't do anything to stop terrorists or enhance our safety. It will only further diminish our privacy rights. Can anyone say, "Your Papers Please?" " If either the business interests (who want cheap labor) or the Left (who think illegals represent a voting bloc) had gotten serious about border control at any point in the last 10-20 years, we wouldn't be here. You can take 50% of the blame for being completely non-serious about a real problem.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#5)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    had gotten serious about border control Hey! Somebody can walk onto an aircraft carrier. This happened mid-April. And this guy had done this sort of thing before. Making mistakes is as natural as birth and breathing and dying.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#6)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Can anyone tell me why a Judge, a supposedly wise person, would rule that we must give an illegal alien, a person who is in this country illegally, the status and benefits of a drivers license? And you on the Left don't understand why the Red states citizens are screaming about judges? Good grief.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#7)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Sure, PPJ. Try this: The driver's license was previously and incorrectly used as identification. But it doesn't really matter because the Congress now approves of everything the Executive branch does and is working to eliminate any power of the Judiciary, but I'm sure the government will never, ever make any mistakes...

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#8)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    DP - So two wrongs make a right? I don't think so.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#9)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    No Jim, but three lefts do ;-) Seriously, this frightens me just a little bit. If i believed for a minute this was more about "illegals" (I almost used Bush's word "undocumented", but now that his plan to legalize them failed, I see that "illegals" is the word to use now) and less about documenting the whereabouts of every person at any time in this country. "Drivers would have to provide four types of documentation, such as a photo ID, a birth certificate, proof that their Social Security number is legitimate and something that verifies the applicant's full home address, such as a utility bill." So, if this passes, will current drivers licenses be a valid photo ID? Will foreign born citizens be able to obtain a cirth certificate? What "proof" is needed to legitimize my SSN? Isn't my card enough? and the one that totally frightens me, beyond measure, beyond even the thought of a tattoo on my forearm... i have to verify my full home address? what if I choose not to live in any one place? Will I then be forced to stop driving? Or will "transient" be good enough? Doubtful.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#10)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Maybe the US Conference of Bishops can start a program "Justice for Taxpayers and others who end up footing the bill for illegals".

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#11)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Apparently Jim ascibes to the Food Fight theory of politics. "Throwing peas at us, huh? Well then we'll just fling some mashed potatoes! Yeah, and then we'll all throw chocolate milk all over the walls!" It's too bad there's no teacher to stop this idiocy. Maybe next we'll dismantle the public school system; that'll really show those liberals why true americans have activist judges. And then we'll give all our nukes to Iran...

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#12)
    by scarshapedstar on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    er, "ascribes" and "hate activist judges."

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#13)
    by ppjakajim on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Johnny - I share your concern over privacy, but that battle was lost years and years ago. What I see here is a knee jerk reaction to a program by the Left, and support for "open borders." Last year I moved from one state to another and when getting my new license had to provide two proofs of residence, where I lived. That was a utility bill and a cable bill. Could have been phone bill. I had a certified birth certificiate, but used a passport. No big deal for me, but I can see where it could be a problem for some. The real problem is that the Left is working against controlling the illegal alien problem, and the right is trying to stop it. Result is, lost of privacy.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    I get no bills in my name, what is this American citizen supposed to do, take some DMV paperpusher to my home to pull hair samples off my pillow to prove I sleep there? Freedom is on life support.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#15)
    by SeeEmDee on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    PPJ, I would beg to differ; it's mainly members of the the (cheap labor supporting) NeoCon Right who are standing in the way of border security...the real kind. Most of the objections about the so-called 'Real ID' legislation heard from the Right have come from so-called 'paleo'conservatives on civil liberties grounds. (That's the civil liberties of born and naturalized citizens, it goes without saying.)

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dark Avenger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    They had a gentleman from the Cato Institute on "Talk of the Nation" yesterday, and he remarked that strengthening ID processes wouldn't help with fighting terrorism, as any ID scheme can be circumvented, and a terrorist who is willing to kill and die for his cause won't let the matter of getting the 'right' ID stand in his way. He also pointed out that ID schemes are notoriously breakable or 'brittle', which I think must be a term of art in this area. If RFIDs become a part of Drivers' LIcenses, etc, I predict that foil covers for wallets will start to become popular. The gent from Cato also pointed out that the effect of having to have an ID is that every transaction is recorded involving the ID is recorded, generating a data trail that would allow closer monitoring and tracking of those with the ID.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#17)
    by DawesFred60 on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    This is nothing but the start of the third world dance, but the Dark Avenger, "Is right on The Money" its about control of your life and in the end its about control of your money.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    I thought a driver's license was for driving a car. I can buy a fishing license in Mexico without proving citizenship. What does driving a car have to do with your immigration status? Re; National ID's. Just one more step into a fully militaristic society. Oh yeah, Buck Fush.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#19)
    by Johnny on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    I disagree Jim, the wrong-wing is not doing anymore to prevent this non-problem than the left. If they had been, Super Preznit Reagan would have defeated this problem single handedly too, just like the non-problem with the former USSR.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Does anyone know if you smash the RFID chip with a hammer, is the license still valid?

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Although the REAL ID Act has already passed (yuck), there's still opportunity for action. It's essential that our Congresspeople hear from consituents who are very disappointed that this legislation passed, a defeat for freedom and privacy. Check out this website that not only gives more info but is easy for users to get in touch with Congress!

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    Che' I can buy a fishing license in Mexico without proving citizenship. Yeah,...but I bet you can't get a drivers license there!!! Being able to catch fish is a far cry from operating a motor vehicle... or do I need to explain that to you? What does driving a car have to do with your immigration status? Well, how about being able to read & understand traffic signs (English)? Would you feel comfortable...(or even try) to drive in Mexico if you couldn't read & understand Spanish? That's actually a moot point because the Mexican Government (being smarter than ours) would never endager their people by letting that happen.

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#23)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    BB- Many people who cant speak english, and are citizens, drive here every day. You can also drive all you want in Mexico with a US license

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#24)
    by roger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:58 PM EST
    BB- BTW- "Alto" means stop. The signs are red, and shaped like ours. Really hard to figure out

    Re: Too Late to Stop National ID (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 12:58:59 PM EST
    Roger... You (like most lefties) are missing the point. I understand I can drive in Mexico on my US license. But, if I move there "illegally' I won't be able to get a valid Mexico license will I? Ok..so they can tell what a stop sign means... I'll give you that. But is that the only sign they need to be able to understand? I don't think so. When an officer pulls them over, shouldn't they be able to understand what he is saying?

    Too Late to Stop National ID | 25 comments (25 topical)