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Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law

By Jeralyn, Section Court Decisions
Posted on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 11:45:16 AM EST
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The Supreme Court issued a decision this week limiting the reach of the felon in possession law which prohibits those convicted of a felony from possessing a firearm. The Court ruled that for the law to apply, the prior conviction cannot be one from another country.

The majority arrived at that conclusion by interpreting the statute's reference to a conviction in "any court" to mean "any court in the United States." Justice Stephen G. Breyer's majority opinion said that in the absence of any indication that Congress even considered the issue when it enacted the law in 1968, the court should apply a legal presumption that "Congress ordinarily intends its statutes to have domestic, not extraterritorial, application."

Justice Breyer said the gun law would create anomalies if applied to foreign convictions, because foreign legal systems have made different choices of what conduct to regard as criminal. Citing the Russian criminal code as an example, he said that someone might be regarded as a felon "for engaging in economic conduct that our society might encourage." A foreign conviction does not necessarily indicate that a person is dangerous, Justice Breyer said.

Instapundit, praises the decision, and goes on to say:

On the other hand, quite a few domestic felony statutes have nothing to do with dangerousness, and I wonder if the promiscuous designation of crimes having no significant moral or dangerousness component as "felonies" might itself be a due process violation.

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    Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law | 30 comments (30 topical)
    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 12:00:26 PM EST
    Isn't it hilarious that the same people screaming, "No international opinions or laws will interfere with our own laws and the right to execute children" have to be told that "No international laws or convictions will interfere with our own laws and the right to bear arms."? So the same federal attorneys who argued "f*#k the world" on juvenile execution wanted to take the world's advice on who a felon is in America? Too funny for words.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 12:15:44 PM EST
    Makes sense to me- a foriegn court's ruling shouldn't apply. Should a Cubano emigre who spent time in the slammer for bad mouthing Castro be precluded from anything based off his "prior conviction"? Absolutely not!

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 12:23:09 PM EST
    The 3 dissenting justices have in the past supported positions that are illegal elsewhere in the world, so they are already guilty, somewhere, and in their own opinion should never be trusted with a gun. Makes sense.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 12:40:13 PM EST
    I'm waiting for the NRA to come out and condemn Thomas, Scalia, and Kennedy for their dissenting opinions. One thing about the NRA--I've not found them to be political hypocrites. They don't care what party you belong to or whether you're considered "liberal" or "conservative." If you're on their side on the gun issue, they love you. If you're not, you've got a target on you. And, I mean that figuratively, of course.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#5)
    by krazycory on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 12:41:13 PM EST
    maybe us non-violent ex-cons have a chance to get our gun rights back

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    I don't see how this really matters anyways. I know there are plenty of ex-cons in this country who have guns... they don't get them legally... why should a law stop ex-cons from other countries... God Bless the NRA... err.. USA.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#7)
    by Adept Havelock on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    The dissenting opinions on this one strike me as a bit odd. Scalia, Thomas and Kennedy? Politics make odd bedfellows. Gerry Owen- I assume you also then have no problem with someone with, say, murder convictions, rape convictions, or other similar crimes obtaining a weapon and moving next door to you, as long as these charges and convictions occurred overseas. It seems just as likely as your "poor little cuban in exile" scenario.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:06:10 PM EST
    Where has the NRA endorsed violent felons or any other felons having firearms?

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:11:52 PM EST
    Ed--the NRA doesn't endorse them felons having firearms... they simply opppose... across the board... any move that limits their incredibly broad interpretation of the 2nd. Any law preventing anyone from having firearms is a step towards limiting everyone from having them, at least in their clouded opnion.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:12:56 PM EST
    Now the NRA is responsible for people who commit crimes?

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#11)
    by desertswine on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:43:58 PM EST
    It will be a real pleasure to have my head blown off by a foreign felon rather than a home grown one.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:44:29 PM EST
    It will do nothing to stop the coming race war in this insane non country. bin laden will win, because this is not a nation of laws or right or wrong its a non nation, soon you will see race murder in places like san diego, the gun laws will not stop the gangs and the nut's with gun's, sad fact 2005. to the good people of all races, get out of the big cities get out now!, its coming down soon within 10 years.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:53:18 PM EST
    I don't think everyone who has been convicted of a felony in a foreign country should be barred from owning or possessing a gun in this country. If Congress wants to amend the law to make it clear that the law applies to foreign convictions, that's their prerogative. But I would hope they would include some sort of waiver process where someone might be able to establish that their foreign conviction should not bar their owning a gun here. That would separate the political prisoner, for example, from the run of the mill criminal.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:54:08 PM EST
    Can't vote (why is that again?) but can buy a gun. I really think Charlton Heston is a Horses Ass.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#15)
    by roy on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 01:59:46 PM EST
    mfox,
    Can't vote (why is that again?) but can buy a gun.
    It's not such an unusual mix. Non-citizens can buy and use guns. Minors can use (not buy) guns. Individuals who haven't bothered to register to vote can buy and use guns. None can vote.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#16)
    by krazycory on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 02:10:04 PM EST
    I can vote!! i just can't own a gun

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 03:03:58 PM EST
    So if a person has been convicted in a different country of a violent crime ,they can still have a gun in the US? Lovely.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#18)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 03:08:28 PM EST
    Not all foreign courts have the same burden of proof or elements to a given crime or evidence laws. So, no, we shouldn't rely on court convictions from other countries when deciding the rights of individuals. I have no problem with looking at international cases when deciding what is an appropriate disposition for a question of law, as long as the final disposition is our own.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#19)
    by roy on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 03:16:11 PM EST
    So if a person has been convicted in a different country of a violent crime ,they can still have a gun in the US?
    I sympathize, but this is a way of erring on the side of liberty. And if somebody was convicted of, say, punching a burka-enforcing cop in Taliban-era Afghanistan, send him to Texas and I'll be glad to treat him to an hour at the shooting range.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#20)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 03:18:47 PM EST
    I'm puzzled by the votes cast by Scalia and Thomas. I woulda thought they'd take a "strict constructionist" view of the 2nd.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 03:32:45 PM EST
    They took a strict view of the law that was passed in 1968 - no evidence of any discussion by those who passed the law of interest in foreign convictions. So they didn't extend the logic right decision.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 04:02:43 PM EST
    "And if somebody was convicted of, say, punching a burka-enforcing cop in Taliban-era Afghanistan, send him to Texas and I'll be glad to treat him to an hour at the shooting range." And if he was convicted, say, of punching a commie cop in East Germany, you'd also treat him, I assume. But what if, say, the guy was convicted of punching a British cop? Or a Canadian cop. Or, say, an American tourist in Spain? What if he was a member of the Baader-Meinhof gang? Does he still get that free hour of gun fun from you in Texas?

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#23)
    by roy on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 04:28:32 PM EST
    Tristero, my point was simply that sometimes people are convicted of "violent crimes" which are actually laudable actions. If the closest you can come to criticising that, is to make stuff up and pretend I believe it, then I must be doing pretty good.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#24)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 04:44:05 PM EST
    Roy, Which thread was the one about the guy and the explosives? I can't seem to find it.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 05:04:28 PM EST
    “maybe us non-violent ex-cons have a chance to get our gun rights back” You have the right, as self defense is and inalienable right of all folks. Rights are not provided by the state; they are often reflected in law or likewise the constitution i.e. bill of rights, but not given or taken. Unfortunately, maybe as often as they are positively reflected, the force of the state restricts them. You are not a servant asking for a privilege, you are victimized by overarching centralized power.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 05:08:47 PM EST
    Why Roy, you're the one who made up the example of the Taliban-puncher. Not I. As it happens, I understand the point that other country's law are different and conviction abroad should not necessarily confer difficulties here. But I suspect that most cops in this country would feel just a little bit queasy about letting a fellow who had punched a cop out buy a gun in this country. Regardless of what country he came from. Obviously, the laws governing possession of firearms in the light of foreign convictions will have to be clarified. [Insert boilerplate here for the benefit of the intellectually challenged rightwingers amongst us to the effect that no, I never supported the Taliban nor do I support their American imitators, including the clowns who organized and participated in Justice Sunday.]

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 05:48:48 PM EST
    But I suspect that most cops in this country would feel just a little bit queasy about letting a fellow who had punched a cop out buy a gun in this country.
    Depends on the country and circumstances. There are very few countries out there with a comparable system of justice to ours.

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 27, 2005 at 06:00:13 PM EST
    Gun's are good, gangs are bad, government is insane, but with a gun in your hands life is good with that guys hear on a pole, its so good to know your place! "hell", prison is that place. "HELP"

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 04:14:15 AM EST
    I think that felons should be able to vote too, so...it doesn't seem like a bad rule of thumb in general to bar convicted (in the US) felons from purchasing a gun, but it's easy to think of exceptions. plenty of things have been bumped up to a felony in our legal code which don't seem to me to warrant it. also, someone convicted of even a violent crime in his youth who has gone a long time as a good citizen should, in my opinion, both be able to vote and buy a gun. c'mon, fellow lefties; it's all about rehabilitation!

    Re: Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 28, 2005 at 08:57:37 AM EST
    the court should apply a legal presumption that "Congress ordinarily intends its statutes to have domestic, not extraterritorial, application."
    Does that mean I can successfully challenge the Treasury Dept. regs that forbid me to buy and smoke Cuban cigars in foreign countries?

    Supreme Court Limits Reach of Gun Law | 30 comments (30 topical)