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Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:07:34 PM EST
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In a new interview with CBS News, Italian journalist and former Iraq hostage Giuliana Sgrena says the U.S. lied about the circumstances of her car being fired upon by U.S. soldiers.

The interview will air on 60 Minutes II Wednesday night. CBS background is here.

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    Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied | 68 comments (68 topical)
    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 10:58:16 PM EST
    Old story, we know bush sent orders to cover this up, its his way of doing business. but remember the real victims are our troops, and remember she is as Red as you can get, and has her own agenda going on here.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:02:25 PM EST
    Not true! Not from a trustworthy news source! Dan Rather tainted it! It's all America-hating liberal lies!

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#3)
    by Linkmeister on Tue Apr 12, 2005 at 11:13:53 PM EST
    Here's he pre-air story from CBS; the link in the post takes you to a March 11 story.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 03:00:40 AM EST
    All you have to do is to look at pix of the car and wonder if the soldiers shot 300-400 rounds at the car, then they need to go back to the rifle range. Besides, I would call her an opinion writer, not a journalist.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#5)
    by Walter on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 03:42:29 AM EST
    Some say that the falsified documents that told the story that Iraq purchased or tried to purchase yellowcake uranium from Niger had an Italian origin.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:53:01 AM EST
    Given how many times her story has changed and how clearly wrong it has been on specific points regarding the shooting at the check point, why should any of us care what Sgrena says she thinks happened? I'm not siding with the military on this, as some mistakes were clearly made, but unless she has actual video footage of the event that supports her newest version of it, we have no more reason to believe her than anyone else. And her claim that they intentionally targeted her is so ridiculous that it pretty much does away with that reason altogether. If the U.S. military had wanted her dead, she'd be dead. The 50 caliber machine gun on the top of that tank is more than capable of chewing a car to pieces. In the end, this seems more likely to be a grab at yet another 15 minutes of fame for a women who may well have staged her own abduction.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:10:30 AM EST
    JustPaul, I'm not going to defend her because I wasn't there. Is it more ridiculous, to give an eyewitness some credibility when the U.S.'s story doesn't add up, however, than to assume that if we wanted her dead we would have succeeded as a reason why this can't be true? (at the risk of offending your sensibilities I won't mention Castro and Bin Laden). While you say we have no more reason to believe her than anyone else, do we have less of a reason because of her political ties?

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:15:55 AM EST
    If you look at the bullet holes in the car it is difficult to think that she was not targeted. Someone may have been shooting off a lot of rounds in the wrong direction but someone else took very good aim. If she is ,as said above, as red as they come with god knows what agenda and might have faked her own kiddnapping - that only makes a deliberate hit more likely.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:48:42 AM EST
    mfox, Let me make this as clear for you as possible. The tank the soliders had is equipped with a .50 caliber machine gun that fires at a rate sufficent to reduce a car to a pile of scrap metal in something around 15 seconds. You can cut large trees down with the thing. Had they truly wanted her dead, they would have opened up with that (which, of course, she tried to claim they did), not with their rifles. I have no doubt they did in fact target the car she was in, but had they wanted her dead, she'd be dead. Having made the decision to fire upon her at all, they had already crossed the line at which using the .50 would have made as much sense as anything else they did. I would also note that by her own admission, she was not an eyewitness to this event. Her bodyguards were piled on top of her trying to protect her. Just how much she actually saw during the shooting is open to debate, but I doubt very much that she saw much of anything other than bright lights, business suits, and muzzle flashes, if that. As for whether or not we should believe her more or less than anyone else: This women has been lying about this event, either intentionally or because she allowed other people to tell her what happened and then restated it as her own recollection, since it happened. She has changed her story repeatedly, and she has much to gain by prolonging her victim status. The believability of her current account suffers in direct proportion to how much it varies from her previous accounts and from the obvious facts in evidence (such as the car was not struck by her claimed 300-400 rounds but something more like 3-4). The fact that she is a media whore does not help her in this either. Whether it is true or not, she comes across as someone doing everything they can to keep the spotlight on themself, not someone at all interested in the truth.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:22:53 AM EST
    mfox.... than to assume that if we wanted her dead we would have succeeded as a reason why this can't be true? (at the risk of offending your sensibilities I won't mention Castro and Bin Laden). Believe me, if either of those two gentlemen where ever in the sights of someone holding a 50 cal...they would be dead! As has been said, I believe this reporter has her own agenda. Plus, any time any vehicle doesn't obey the orders of an armed guard, they deserve to be fired on!

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#11)
    by roy on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:23:41 AM EST
    justpaul,
    ...her claim that they intentionally targeted her...
    I don't remember her ever actually claiming that. She said she couldn't rule out the possibility (which is a lame, but true, statement), and various commentators (including TL) exagerated to make it seem like an accusation. She's been interviewed several times and I know I haven't read them all; do you have a link to contradict me?

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:51:34 AM EST
    mfox - I would like to second justpaul's comments regarding the 50 cal machine gun. If she had been targeted to be killed, the car would have been ripped to pieces in 15 seconds, with nothing but human flesh looking like hamburger meat left. Or, blown away by a 105 mm round of high explosives. What we have here is a failure to communicate. The Itralians admitted they didn't advise the US of what was happening until the very last minute, mostly because they had paid a ransom and didn't want a lot of attention on the handover. The result was a car that didn't stop as it was supposed to, and it was fired on. My guess is that whoever failed to use the 50 cal machine gun was disciplined, because he didn't know who was in the car, and standing orders would have been to destroy the car. Or, perhaps, the rifle fire stopped the car before it reached the line, over which, it would have been utterly destroyed. As for the woman, her politics is suspect and her story keeps changing. I doubt she saw anything but an inital flash and was then pushed into the floorboards and her rescuer was on top of her. It appears that CBS continues it its proud tradition of trying to find fault and listening to anyone who wants to be critical of the US. That's a shame. It used to be a great news network. But things change.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:04:20 AM EST
    Anybody who belives this America-hating commie ho is out of their mind. Go look at some of the stuff she said about the US before she was captured.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:07:38 AM EST
    roy, Fair enough. I may have misread her comments or been thinking of a headline that misrepresented them.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:11:25 AM EST
    The fact that they didn't use the 50 cal proves nothing. Maybe they would have used it if the initial shots had not worked which they did. So your argument is based on a supposition that you have made without initimate knowledge of the situation. Another house of cards on no foundation. Seems to me they did a good clean job without the 50 cal. There have variations in the stories on both sides making an absolute evaluation nearly impossible. Since we know that central command routinely lies they can't be trusted nor can we take everything she says at face value. I thought that one of the facts under dispute was wheter there was a checkpoint there.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:27:30 AM EST
    "her politics is suspect"
    Yup, definitely a thought-criminal. Book 'em Dan-o.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 09:46:25 AM EST
    SD writes - "Maybe they would have used it if the initial shots had not worked which they did." In case you missed it, the reporter was not killed, so IF the intent was to kill her, the rifle fire did not work. Again. If they wanted to kill her, they would have used other means. As for the check point location, I have heard nothing that says it was a new check point. This is just another tempest in a teapot, being taken advantage of by all who want to complain about the US.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 10:19:55 AM EST
    All the questions about how fast the car was going, how far it traveled after being hit and from what direction the bullets came from could be answered if the US would let Italian or independent investigators examine the car:
    When the Associated Press asked to see the car on 5 March, it was told that the Americans didn't know where it was. On 10 March a C130J military plane of the VII autonomous Italian division or "group" left Bateen base at Abu Dhabi for Baghdad, charged with bringing back the Toyota Corolla and delivering it to Rome. The plane returned empty; Calipari's car remained in Baghdad. Shortly before 10 March, a photo of "the" car surfaced with fewer bullet holes than suggested by the description of a "rain of bullets" in Sgrena's account. It was the wrong car. The Washington Times' Rowan Scarborough had claimed that the shots had been eight not 400 and further blamed Calipari for supposedly not securing an exit strategy. And so on. Eventually, the Italian public prosecutors at the court of magistrates in Rome located the owner, who leased cars to the Italian embassy in Baghdad, and bought the vehicle, but the Americans refused to surrender it, keeping it in a hangar at Camp Victory, in the area of Baghdad airport.
    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 10:23:11 AM EST
    nothing but fart drunk trolls here licking each others backsides as usual

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 10:26:49 AM EST
    MB and PPJ are guessing just like the rest of us. Shut up til you know the facts.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 10:44:46 AM EST
    MB and PPJ are guessing just like the rest of us. Shut up til you know the facts. We're not guessing that she has an agenda.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 11:07:49 AM EST
    We're not guessing that she has an agenda Yes, you are. Who do you think you're talking to MB? A fifth grade school? Your life would be so much easier if we would all act as dumb as you think we are.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ted on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 11:22:21 AM EST
    This communist moron, does'nt give two s**ts about the italians who were killed helping here (though they were'nt very smart themselves...but thats another topic) She loves the fact that she can now use the accident to further her goals of defaming the U.S. military in Iraq. The little Stalin girl saw the spotlights dimming on her fantasy and decided to rant again...not surprising she picked CBS as her forum.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 11:34:46 AM EST
    In Saint Louis, and possibly elsewhere, 60 Minutes, Wednesday is being pre-empted by a Billy Graham special. Of course, this can only be a CIA conspiracy.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 11:51:15 AM EST
    In case you missed it, the reporter was not killed, so IF the intent was to kill her, the rifle fire did not work. Again. If they wanted to kill her, they would have used other means.
    Obviously pure speculation. Speculation who's aim is to once again absolve the US of any possible wrong doing. Maybe they are innocent of wrongdoing and maybe they aren't

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 12:18:34 PM EST
    naw'll Soldier sounds more like a "rovish" maneuver to me.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 01:19:45 PM EST
    We're not guessing that she has an agenda Yes, you are. Who do you think you're talking to MB? A fifth grade school? Your life would be so much easier if we would all act as dumb as you think we are. Ok, my bad. She clearly doesn't have an agenda.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 01:24:06 PM EST
    Che - Facts? Shut up? Getting nasty like your namesake? 1. We know the Italians did not properly notify the US in advance because they wanted to keep quiet the fact they had paid a ransom, and just wanted to get her out of the country. That was a major screw up. By the time the information came forward, it didn't get to the check point, and the car didn't stop. Results: Dead and wounded. Cause: Poor communications by the Italians. Note to everyone: When in a warzone expect bad things to happen. That wasn't a toll booth the driver saw. Sailor - The only thing that could be answered would be how many shots hit the car. Everything else would be a guess. But, really, who cares? It couldn't have been hit too many times or the "journalist" wouldn't still be ranting. SD - Yes. And so was the speculation that the US wanted to kill her. My spec was just to point out how illogical the first one was.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 01:36:37 PM EST
    Attention According to PPJ, his speculation = facts One speculation can not discredit another. Logic 101 PPJ's accepts anything issued by central command as fact, anything else is garbage.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 02:03:13 PM EST
    In all fairness, JustPauls comments are fair enough. Not knowing all the facts about what she said and what we said doesn't help me. Saying that CBS News caters to liberals is just silly. I'm looking forward to seeing the 60 Minutes report. This whole incident does bear looking at. IF, in fact, Ms. Sgrena is hyping the incident filed in her office under Too Good to Be True, then so what - unless she's sueing someone. However, if in fact the U.S. is shown, through malice of forethought or sheer incompetence (my guess!) to have targeted their car (for not stopping??), mistakenly or not, well, that says a lot about how all civilians are being treated - in a patently unacceptable manner that is NOT due to lack of ability but due to lack of intent. My current understanding of available facts is that the regular patrols had been alerted that an Italian State Vehicle was coming through, but that Ms. Sgrena and friends were fired on by a sort of roving patrol that was not in the communication loop and that was in a state of "hyper-alertness" (due, to some extent to poor equipment and training as well as lack of experienced leadership). So I think there is every reason to investigate how the U.S. attacked and wounded or killed innocent non-combatants. The problem with defending the U.S. out of hand is that you are aligning yourself with Ted of:
    This communist moron, does'nt give two s**ts about the italians who were killed helping here (though they were'nt very smart themselves...but thats another topic)
    and The little Stalin girl saw the spotlights dimming on her fantasy and decided to rant again. Who reflects some people's arguments that she deserves to die, and reinforces the Bush rallying cry of "you're either with us or against us". So please don't go rushing off to justify or make excuses for ANY government actions. After all we have nothing to lose if Sgrena is wrong, and everything to lose if she is right.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#31)
    by roy on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 02:15:35 PM EST
    mfox,
    So I think there is every reason to investigate how the U.S. attacked and wounded or killed innocent non-combatants.
    I agree there should be an investigation, but it occurs to me that danger to innocent non-combatants is a predictable consequence of the enemies' masquerading as innocent non-combatants. Maybe the soldiers screwed up, or maybe they did the best they could with crappy circumstances.
    The problem with defending the U.S. out of hand is that you are aligning yourself with [various idiots]...
    Only for uselessly broad definitions of "aligning".
    After all we have nothing to lose if Sgrena is wrong, and everything to lose if she is right.
    That would be true of any accusation or criticism, so I don't think it's a useful standard for evaluating which to take seriously.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 03:46:01 PM EST
    mfox - Your ability to not understand is amazing. You are in a war zone. You approach a check point. You stop. It is just that simple. And why should they not stop? How long would that have taken? No, I think you want to believe bad of us, so you will grasp any little straw, logical or not, to keep dragging things along. Keep asking the same question, keep hinting the same thing. Over and over. Trying to rewrite the facts until all that people remember is the charges.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 04:26:46 PM EST
    There is nothing new about this story. It is nothing but a rehash of same-old-same-old. This Trostkyite propagandist, that wishes to passes for journalist hasn't changed her tune since the first week in March. Or do everyone here have a shorter attention span than a Pomeranian in Starbucks? I thought we buried this dead horse on this discussion: U.S. Troops Attack Freed Italian Hostage, Kill Guard

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:25:10 PM EST
    Boq - Exactly. Just repeat the charges until everyone agrees that they must be true, just because they have been repeated and repeated and repeated.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:31:26 PM EST
    PPJ - Don't you find it ironic that the Left is using a trick straight out of Goebbel's Bag-o-tricks?

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#36)
    by soccerdad on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:38:55 PM EST
    PPJ - Don't you find it ironic that the Left is using a trick straight out of Goebbel's Bag-o-tricks?
    Now this is truly funny, since it is Buschco that has perfected this technique with their talk of WMDs, nuclear clouds, etc. thanks for the laughs You are a self-parody. I used to think you guys should be banned. Now I think I am glad you're here i need the laughs

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 05:55:21 PM EST
    This from the Reichstag/911 crowd - "Goebbels bag of tricks", dont make me laugh. Seen any wmds lately? Btw, unlike the wide spectrum political palette of bought-and-payed-for candidate no.1, or no. 2 in the U.S, socialists, anarchists, and YOUR probable preference fascists, get an actual honest airing of thier ideas in some European countries, which means that Trotskyites, excuse me, damn commonists, arnt that uncommon.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:00:53 PM EST
    I like the bit about 300 to 400 rounds but "they didnt really mean to kill her". LOL! Talk about a winger intellectual circle jerk.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:23:50 PM EST
    SD - Glad to be of service. We all could use a little humor, and it appears we have a symbiotic relationship going. Dearest No Name - You are confused. First, there is great doubt that 300 to 400 of rifle fire was directed at the car, or else they would of killed her. Secondly, since they didn't know who was in the car, and since it had not stopped as redquired, they were trying to do great harm to the car and its occupants. Thirdly, IF they had wanted to kill her, they would have immediately opened up with 50 cal machine gun fire or some 105 mm HE rounds or similar. Fourthly, when the car's forward progress stopped, they stopped shooting, showing that they wanted to stop the car, not just kill the occupants. But hey, don't let facts get in the way.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:30:06 PM EST
    PPJ - Dont let an original, independent thought get in your way. Again, hundreds of rounds, but, "they didnt MEAN to kill her." You must be aware, on some level, of how disengenuous and absurd that sounds.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:33:32 PM EST
    "..stop the car, not JUST kill the occupants." Unintentional candor from the right is our best hope.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#42)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:40:12 PM EST
    Jondee. Where did the "hundreds of rounds" come from? One of her stories was that she picked up handsful of bullets from the back seat. Not possible, if they were bullets. A moron journalist--but I repeat myself--might have thought expended brass was "bullets", but that means the shooting was from within the car. So that went away, once somebody figured it out. Anyway, Jondee, your obervation is nuts. If they had fired hundreds of rounds and not killed her, and wanted to kill her, they'd fire as many more as necessary. You should know there are very few people ignorant enough to buy your point. Trying it only makes you look bad.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 06:43:54 PM EST
    M.B - You dont "have an agenda"? This is the type of moronic non-thought that you lgf apes have been fobbing off as meaningful commentary for awhile now. Your agenda and hers dont coincide. I think we knew that. But, I only say this because, of course, I have an agenda.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:21:35 PM EST
    Oh yeah Soccerdad, I also find it side splitting hilarious. On one of my PoliSci courses I leart that the Political Spectrum behaves more like a circle. The Extreme Left and the Extreme Right are not at opposite ends, instead they meet in their irrational intolerance at the bottom of the circle. Thus, it is not surprising that both the Extreme Left is recurring to the tricks of the Goebbelian Extreme Right. On that Trotskyite, I wonder how could she count 400 Rounds of 5.56mm comming at her. The M16 Cycles at over 700 Rounds per Minute, the M249 Machine Gun Cycles at 600RPM's. Assuming (which they did not) that the soldiers let go a full Automatic barrage at her. That's 10 Rounds per second. Can anyone raise their hand and count to ten in less than a second? Simple question to find the truth.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 07:22:55 PM EST
    This is a media event, nothing more.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:14:56 PM EST
    jondee - To analyze an event you must be able to move from a to b to c... Try it while reading my comment to Dearest No Name.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#47)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Apr 13, 2005 at 08:18:58 PM EST
    Mfox, Here is the investigation you seek. It’s another unfortunate incident,” Casey said, adding “we’ll get to the bottom of it.” So everything here, according to the US Army, is pure speculation until their investigation is complete.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#48)
    by john horse on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:13:36 AM EST
    What I learned from 60 Minutes that I didn't know before, was that the special agent accompanying Sgrena was on the cell phone to the Italian Prime Minister and Sgrena's husband up until they were attacked. They were on their way to the airport and the US military command had been notified that they were coming. One question that the investigation needs to determine is if these Guards knew that they were coming (they set up the roadblock only one-half mile from the airport). If they didn't, then, to use the famous passage from Cool Hand Luke, what we had was a failure to communicate. Unlike attacks against Iraqis, there will be an investigation. This attack was just too high profile. Anyone watching CSI knows that we can determine questions like how fast the car was going. I say bring the investigation on.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:23:40 AM EST
    Jim - What's this crap you're spouting about facts? Lets look at your comment, step by step, shall we?
    First, there is great doubt that 300 to 400 of rifle fire was directed at the car, or else they would of killed her.
    "there is great doubt" = Speculation, not fact.
    Secondly, since they didn't know who was in the car, and since it had not stopped as redquired, they were trying to do great harm to the car and its occupants.
    Any links to back this up, Jim? No? Then it's speculation again. That's 2 for 2 so far.
    Thirdly, IF they had wanted to kill her, they would have immediately opened up with 50 cal machine gun fire or some 105 mm HE rounds or similar.
    COMPLETE speculation, requires no further comment.
    Fourthly, when the car's forward progress stopped, they stopped shooting, showing that they wanted to stop the car, not just kill the occupants.
    Errr - not exactly. It merely shows what it shows - that once the car stopped, they stopped shooting. Anything else is speculation. Perhaps they assumed they'd killed everyone in the car already. (After shooting 400 rounds even the most cockeyed GIs would hope that they'd killed everyone on board). Perhaps they ran out of bullets. Perhaps one of them had a sudden attack of conscience. Who knows? You sure as hell don't, Jim, so stop making out that you do. But here's an idea that would help us to answer some of these questions - why doesn't the Army just release the car that they fired on for analysis? Why haven't they? The innocent have nothing to fear, right Jim?

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#50)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 05:17:20 AM EST
    Ian, with regard to releasing the car: You don't want to go there. Pix were available shortly after the event. There was a hole in the windshield and one of the tires was flat. That was about it. The pictures of the car indicated a couple of accurate shots and nothing about where other rounds--if any--went. BTW, why are we taking the 300+ rounds as a given? Nothing else anybody says is accepted as a given. Why this? What is the source? One story had it that this was a rolling checkpoint, which is to say, moves out and sets up in a place not before used as a checkpoint, and further, it was done to facilitate the movement of a big shooter, Negroponte, IIRC. Rolling checkpoints are used to stop traffic in spots the terrorists can't anticipate. So, for example, the tterrorist who was going to take his ammo resupply up to 108th street and turn off to avoid the US checkpoint at 112th street, as before, as recon showed was possible earlier, finds a checkpoint at 97th street and no way around it. And there are at least four stories about the communication. And at least two about how the car was driving (fast, slow) and those are Sgrena's stories. I didn't watch the program, since the likelihood of her telling the truth this time is pretty low, and even if she did, distinguishing it from earlier stories would be impossible.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 05:56:27 AM EST
    Ian - My comments are based on logic. If you put 300 t0 400 rounds into a car, the occupants will be dead, or, at the least badly wounded. Plus the pictures RA refers to don't bear out the claims. The firing stopped when the car stopped. You question my comment that the military did not know who was in the car, and call my comment that they did not, speculation. By doing this you display your bias that they did, and that they were trying to kill her. No problem. But understand that what you posit requires a conspiracy of the US military command, and a knowledge of where she was being held, when she was released, the car she was traveling in and when she would be approaching the checkpoint. Plus, the conspiracy would extend all the way down to the squad level. But don't let logic deter you in your belief.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 06:12:36 AM EST
    Obviously, it was an unintentional screw-up. That doesn't let anyone off the hook who ordered the vehicle fired upon, or who did the firing. The officers should be relieved of their command while the incident is thoroughly investigated and the persons who fired upon the car should be reassigned to desk jobs until the situation is reviewed. Not bloody likely. (Note to rightwing nuts: Let me save you some time: Yes, that's right, I'm saying every single military screwup should be handled this way. I have no perspective about such things and no awareness that if every screwup was investigated carefully, there'd be no fighting soldiers left. But then that is my real goal, to weaken America's fighting will and permit my colleagues in Jane Fonda-style liberalism, namely Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, to destroy the US government and replace it with a liberal radical Islamist one that legalizes gay marriage, bans heterosexual unions, and requires all its citizens to engage in public anal sex.)

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 09:17:00 AM EST
    Okey dokey let's drop the speculations and look some facts. Handheld gunfire through the driver window, look at these blog pictures of the car and look the hood and engine side, can't see any bullet holes there.. The gunner totally missed the engineblock but hit the front window, the tire and the driver window. Sgrena's car proves she lied or exagurated, these pictures also tell a different story from the offical one given by the troops manning the checkpoint. Fick told 60 Minutes Wednesday that after struggling with the Pentagon’s checkpoint procedures, he improvised; he stole an Iraqi stop sign. You fight with the Pentagon you have, not the Pentagon you might want.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 09:27:34 AM EST
    One thing to note on those pictures, is that they were taken by the Italian National TV´s Nightly News (TG1), as the car was being readied for transport to Italy. Not the erroneously posted AP Picture that was first released.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#55)
    by roy on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 10:32:27 AM EST
    The NY Post has a tidbit on the joint US / Italian investigation. Hardly any details, but it supposedly clears the Americans.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#56)
    by roy on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 10:35:56 AM EST
    Better writeup at MSNBC.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#57)
    by brad on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 12:32:06 PM EST
    if i were there i would make sure next time that no first hand accounts were available for comment. that means every body dies every time there is an incident. now is this really what everyone wants, if so keep up with this upsurd ranting. not to mention the fact that if you were in the trunk of a car that was shot 300-400 times you would still be dead. i wish someone would do a test on a car and actually shoot it that many times so you could all see what that would actually look like. that way all of you liberal media lap dogs would realize how ignorant you are.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 01:21:21 PM EST
    No dice, Brad. The fact is contained in your own post. They could look upon the shot-up car, but it would not change their minds; they would ignore the evidence. As you said: ignorant>

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 02:14:47 PM EST
    Trolls are horrid carnivores found in all climes, from arctic wastelands to tropical jungles. Most creatures avoid these beasts, since trolls know no fear and attack unceasingly when hungry.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 03:08:28 PM EST
    tristero - And you have no experience in the military and apparently no experience in making split second decisions that mean life and death. Which means you think that if we investigate every claim made by every person every time that this will have no impact on that process. And of course, it will. Your people who are trying to do a good job will quietly leave, and what you will have left is risk aversive administrators. That's a formula for a military that will get its butt kicked the first time it runs up against a real foe. If there was a screw up here it was by the Italians who didn't stop when they should have and didn't coordinate when they should have. The troops showed great restraint in not just blowing the car, and its UNKNOWN occupants away. Give some credit instead of continual complaints. As far as they knew, the car could be packed with 400 pounds of HE, ready to knock down a city block. Boq - Sure looks like 400 rounds hit to me. ;-) You?

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 03:20:23 PM EST
    Oh yeah SwissCheese.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:11:11 PM EST
    Maybe that's the way things work in happybushlandia but in the real world cover ups won't make the sh*t go away. Fact is there was no road block where it should have been. The military should be putting effort into improving these checkpoints. SOME OF THE MORONS IN CHARGE SHOULD RETHINK AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But then again, I know what you're getting at PPJ: If only the insignificant sandpeople are getting shot by accident, (except in this case) why should anybody give a damn?

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#63)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:27:11 PM EST
    Yeah lets draft IM, he seems to know soo much about roadblocks and urban, clandestine combat. I'm sure he'd be a great 'asset' (ass-hat) to our military.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#64)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    Thanks Neocon, but you seem to be doing such a great job already.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#65)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 04:37:23 PM EST
    IM. What do you mean by a road block where it should have been? Where is a road block supposed to be? Do we inform the terrorists ahead of time, too? When approaching a road block, stop. When approaching a road block manned by guys whose buddies have been killed by VBIEDs, STOPGODDAMMIT. Or die. Your choice. Does anybody know how this car, in the dark, was supposed to look like a car with innocents in it? Let's suppose that there had been coordination: How do you know that this approaching pair of headlights is the coordinated-about vehicle? How would you arrange that? Here's the deal: If he stops, you can check him and find out if he's the coordinated-about vehicle. If he doesn't, kill him. Unless you think the Italians had road-block-running clearance, too. Face it, lefties. This was bricks without straw time from the get-go. You had zilch, at best, and it actually got worse. You need to be more discerning about where you choose to make stuff up to discredit the US. Otherwise, it's egg meet face.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#66)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 06:09:37 PM EST
    I don't think Italian driver willingly ignored the check point just because he felt like getting shot at. Anyhow, something went wrong at the check point, the driver failed to notice and the only means available to stop the car was by firing at it, that's fubar. Road block for dummies: Plenty of simple ways to block a road: Speed bumps, warning signs, barriers, spikes, mines etc, simple & cheap stuff.. Troops manning mobile check points on important routes between Bagdad and Bush Intl. Airport should be equipped with some of that stuff by now, why aren't they? Oh but I forget.. it's so simple You fight with the Pentagon you have, not the Pentagon you might want.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#67)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 07:18:59 PM EST
    IM. Mines? You made a mistake, didn't you? Mines, dumb ones, have no discretion. Smart ones like...Claymores? That's like shooting somebody. You choose to pull or not. Spikes? Do you have any idea of how long a car can go with all four tires flat? Especially if the driver isn't worried about the rims. Let's agree the driver was confused. Among other things, looking right up the beam of a bright light is confusing, the distance is unclear. In one of our classes, they had us look at a tank's xenon light in visible phase from a mile off. Looked as if it were painted on our cornea. So the guy didn't know what to do because he hadn't been driving in Iraq, or he figured that, not being one of the brown people, rules didn't apply to him. So he didn't stop. Not the fault of the US. FYI, there are people who unbundle the statements and come to the conclusion--taking them literally--that Sgrena had been given a pistol, for some unknown reason. And that, being a moron journalist--but I repeat myself--she accidentally shot the Italian agent. They look at the bullet's path and so forth, sort of the same thing people do with the Kennedy killing and the "magic bullet". I don't see much to it, bullets do weird things all by themselves, but the thought process is less contorted than that which has Kennedy killed by a cabal of unemployed authors or whatever it was. And less contorted than the lefties' views, too.

    Re: Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Apr 14, 2005 at 09:35:40 PM EST
    Yes I meant mines, no dumber than the user handling them.. Deterrence, that's what they're meant for. Lay mines out in several lines behind visible reflective barriers and the cars will slow down. It works with fakes and dummies too.

    Italian Journalist Hostage Says U.S. Lied | 68 comments (68 topical)