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Wednesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 09:34:06 AM EST
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I'm off to lecture to a lawyers' group on using the internet for legal research and investigation. TChris is on vacation in Napa Sonoma Valley. Here's a space for you, have fun.

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    Wednesday Open Thread | 38 comments (38 topical)
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Kitt on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 09:43:49 AM EST
    Whoa - there's actually something else on the news channels beside the Schindlers and their spiritual advisors. Someone made a point about the differences between those killed in Columbine versus those killed at Red Lake and how the 'news' seems subdued as compared to the Columbine coverage.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 10:07:57 AM EST
    The Schiavo story is much more conroversial than the school shooting, hence the coverage. I mean, what can you say? Nobody thinks senseless violence is good, but what are you going to do? Declare a state of emergency?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 10:10:32 AM EST
    I wish that I was on vacation in the Napa Valley. I can almost imagine...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 10:22:06 AM EST
    I believe the relative difference in coverage between Columbine and Red Lake is due to the races of those involved. Columbine - which pretty much did provoke a national state of emergency - was about white suburban christian kids; Red Lake was Indian reservation kids. It's the difference between "Oh my God, it can happen here," and "Thank God it happened there." Here in Minnesota, there's a very unsavory tone to the coverage, which tends to imply: sure it's tragic, but what did you expect?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by TChris on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 10:43:36 AM EST
    Sonoma Valley, actually, but I brought my laptop for those rare moments when I'm not in a winery.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 10:53:28 AM EST
    It's the difference between "Oh my God, it can happen here," and "Thank God it happened there."
    the former eliciting feelings of action and outrage, while the latter reinforces our apathy, what can we do? feeling sad, for all the families involved and the community! what can we do as a society? there are many others out there border-lining on this type of rage! what can you do as a parent? hug your kids today (everyday), tell them you love them, ask if anything (or anyone) is bothering them, ask if it's anything you can do to help them, ask them anything, just start a conversation and don't accept one word answers. many ????? no solutions! TChris, sip a couple for your people out here, enjoy yourself, know you deserve it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by roy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 10:55:29 AM EST
    Rein, do you have any documentation backing up your point about tone and implication?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:12:43 AM EST
    T Chris, Great restaurants in town near the main square. Beats WI this time of year! And Napa is just over the hill.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Kitt on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:14:29 AM EST
    Don't know about Rein, but I can tell you that those raised near the Shoshone/Bannock, Shoshone/Piaute or the Nez Perce reservations here have vocalized all kinds of crap. Their favorite topic: welfare and how "those people" received such...free tutition, free this, free that - ignoring all kinds of factors as to how the entire mess came about and certainly not wanting to discuss it. When going to college there was nothing more I love to point out that their farmer fathers (just like my farmer father) received subsidies from the government - and what are gov't subsidies? Their blatant racism sickened me. Welfare....under another name. Gimme break...'ddddocumentation backing up your point about tone and implication?"

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:21:08 AM EST
    TChris We'll be expecting to hear your tasting notes!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 11:48:30 AM EST
    If I were in the Napa Valley, I know what I'd do! First, I'd hike up Mt. St. Helena East again. Then, I'd do the Sonoma county highpoint.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 12:10:04 PM EST
    Roy - what is the point of your dumbass question? To challenge the idea that Racism exists against the indigenous peoples of the Americas???? I have to admit, as liberal/progressive as I feel I am, that I "noticed" the difference right away. That I knew in the first moments of the tragedy that Red Lake was an Indian school. That I noticed that the parents hugging their children in front of the school looked like, well, Indians. And definitely poor. And... I hate to admit, the question of whether something about this being an "Indian" situation factored into the motive. Of course, I immediately realized the true point which, in fact, is that victims of discrimination are as capable of racism and hatred as the rest of us.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 12:11:41 PM EST
    TChris - Glad to see that among your considerable talents you can drink and type at the same time! :) (now what other commenters are exhibiting this talent as I write??)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 12:22:39 PM EST
    Does the Schiavo tragedy show that the conservative movement is approaching a meltdown? Maybe not, but the yawning chasm between economic and social conservatives, dormant for two presidential elections is reemerging and with it, a serious threat to the Republicans' majority status. For more, see: "Achilles' Heels"

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    I noticed the difference in the coverage between Columbine and Red Lake as well. Without dismissing racism as a factor, it seems to me that the events in Columbine were without precedent. Maybe we're getting used to kids gunning each other down at school. Blame the video games and the fatcats in Washington that obviously aren't raising the kids right!!!! Oh, wait; we're supposed to raise our own kids, aren't we?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 01:17:47 PM EST
    Maybe we're getting used to kids gunning each other down at school.
    there use to it, ref: inner city schools, they just haven't gotten use to multiple school killings in a single day. give it a few more years and we'll desensitize, adopt, and accept as norm. where are we headed?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 01:21:30 PM EST
    canuck, columbine was only without precedent in its suburban location.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 01:25:11 PM EST
    One more plug for the best page on the net. toothpastefordinner

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 01:36:19 PM EST
    Mfox,
    Roy - what is the point of your dumbass question?
    I wanted more information. Since when is that a feat of dumbassery? Kitt,
    Gimme break...'ddddocumentation backing up your point about tone and implication?"
    Watch out, the Burden of Proof Boogeyman is gonna get you! Rein was talking about media coverage, media outlets often have transcripts and video segments available. I thought it might be interesting to have something concrete like that. Instead, you posted anecdotes from a different region. That's fine for a conversation (I know I'm not contributing anything better), but why discourage more solid data?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Kitt on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 02:13:25 PM EST
    Roy? Is that you parading as someone else? My 'different region' was to demonstrate that the region does not matter; it's about the racism against American Indians, regardless of the region, regardless of the tribe. Some of us saw the differences right away of course and then wondered if Columbine was the precedent - which is shameful in itself that I can't remember - which might explain some of the differences. One thing I heard today was the rate of unemployment on Red Lake is 34% - CNN from the Washington Post reporter who was there, Ms Moreno was her name. That's amazing. You think I'm discouraging?! You ain't seen nuthin. For some reason too, the BIA web site has some disclaimer about their website. Red Lake has a website as well.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by roy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 02:23:00 PM EST
    Roy? Is that you parading as someone else?
    Yeah, that was me. Not parading, just inattentive.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 02:26:24 PM EST
    Powerline is casting aspersions about the memo's authenticity. It seems like a long-winded attempt at rationalization, but some of the points are interesting.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by roy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 02:28:45 PM EST
    Grr, sorry, wrong thread. Nobody cares about memo aspersions here. If anybody would like to delete my 3:23 post (and this one explaining it), that'd be cool.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Patrick on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 02:37:10 PM EST
    T-Chris, Name it and I'll meet you somewhere. Try Trentadue tasting room in the Healdsburg square. Great ports.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 03:30:06 PM EST
    check on what bush is doing each day, someone should watch him, and see if he calls bin laden. I need my V.A,Drugs.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:20:01 PM EST
    I recommend The Jihadis of Penzance for some much needed entertainment. As Spengler says don't forget to sing along

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 05:47:00 PM EST
    Mark..still the president of the universe and real,live space commander.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 06:26:22 PM EST
    You may have heard that the Tribal Council at Red Lake is hassling journalists. That might have something to do with the differential in coverage. Then there's the point that the place is 285 miles from Minneapolis, which is considerably farther than Columbine is from Denver. Then there is the lack of real-time tape. Then there is the connection with a weird connection of neo-Nazi extreme green parties, which will have to be covered up. Then there is the lack of bullying reports on account of the kid was not in school. The gun used was his grandfather's and his grandfather was a cop, so there's no gun control angle. But I have it on good authority that it didn't happen. The school was a gun-free zone and these things can't happen in the neighborhood of gun-free signs. That's why schools have them. And, lastly, the first mass shooting at a school is a big deal. The next is not as big a deal unless you're related to somebody there. That's human nature.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by roy on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 07:42:24 PM EST
    Richard, do you have any documentation backing up your point about the Tribal Council hassling journalists? (A batch of brownies for whoever calls the irony first)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 08:03:08 PM EST
    Heard it on NPR on the way home. No idea why. Also a reference to a sister of the dead guard having some trouble getting to the site for some kind of picture.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 08:10:22 PM EST
    How's this for serendipity? There's a Guardian (UK) article, kind of long, about the troubles of the reservation at Red Lake, the kid himself, and it begins with some references to the hassling of journos. I got to it through Lucianne. You have the opportunity to make me rich. I fully expect somebody to dismiss the reports because it's on Lucianne, despite the report actually coming from a leftish UK paper. If nobody does this, I'll pay myself ten dollars. My financial future is in your hands. I am not optimistic.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Kitt on Wed Mar 23, 2005 at 09:30:01 PM EST
    Does it have anything to do with privacy issues? Some folks don't like to grieve publicly; I know I wouldn't.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 04:43:02 AM EST
    Kitt. I agree. When I see journos sticking microphones into teary faces, I change the channel. It's disgusting. However, this seems more serious, according to the Guardian. Not letting the journos off the highway (a rez is sovereign but the highway maybe has a different status when it runs through). However, the motive is not the issue. The issue is the result, and the result may be less reporting, thus allowing certain lefties to claim racism, when it may be something else. You will recall much of the reporting from Columbine consisted of endless repetitions of the tape of the kids getting out, microphones into grieving faces, and memorials. The first doesn't exist and apparently the second and third are not going to be recorded or reported on.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 10:38:25 AM EST
    pigwiggle...checked out your link, and I don't know if it's because I'm very hungover today from last nights Black Crowes concert (great show! ears still ringing!), or if I'm dense, but I don't get it. Care to fill me on the joke/message?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 12:42:27 PM EST
    Kdog- Check out the entire site; he's just some guy who doodles sometimes lame but most often very funny things.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 01:03:28 PM EST
    can someone out there enlighten me as to what happened to the story of the person;who infiltrated the presidentiakl press conference a few weeks ago, and was not a member of the press. I would think that, from a security standpoint alone, this whould have been subject to an investigation and a lot more attention than it received. we all know that press conferences are maniipulated to make the president look as good as possible that is to be expected. but when someone, apparently in a high position, enables a non-credentialed individual to attend the conference and ask slanted questions, that is a another story altogether. it should never be permitted. furthermore there should immediately be an investigation lauched. i want to know who made that arrangement and why.;

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 01:55:36 PM EST
    I see...the hamster one went right over my head, but as I said, I'm shot today.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Mar 24, 2005 at 06:39:46 PM EST
    Jackie - And why wasn't he a member of the press? Is there some state license that I am unaware of?

    Wednesday Open Thread | 38 comments (38 topical)