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Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibuster

By Jeralyn, Section Judiciary
Posted on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 03:53:28 PM EST
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The latest Newsweek poll shows almost 60% of Americans favor keeping the filibuster.

Neutering the filibuster would be unpopular with Americans, nearly six in ten (57 percent) of whom would disapprove. Even one-third (33 percent) of Republicans say they would object to such a move.

[link via Buzzflash.]

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    Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibuster | 45 comments (45 topical)
    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 05:19:16 PM EST
    Why its not the nation of or by the people, its a nation of bull and politcal/race agendas with no ideals but the lies. so have fun lying to each other and keep your eyes on nothing and have fun in the new third world. the fillbuster is just a show to keep your minds off of what is real.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 05:38:20 PM EST
    I guess sort of a filibuster-related topic - this site is constantly trolled by wingnuts who claim to be democrats or some such nonsense. I am more than ready to see the wingnuts dumped. The site is called talkleft, suggesting it's a place where progressives can mix and discuss news, crime and politics. It's pretty hard to get to the nuances of the progressive view when we are constantly fending off aggressive right-wingers. On this thread? of course the filibuster should stay, and Congress should stay out of our family lives and medical decisions, but these days, you never know what to expect. It does appear to be the case that the right wingers are trying to use their majorities to stifle debate. Tyranny of the majority has always been a concern and managed within the checks and balances. Next chance for significant change? mid term elections. Hope to see a sea change.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 05:54:56 PM EST
    CA - Still looking for an echo, instead of a debate, eh? Re - Fillibuster. I would like to see the question before I really comment about the poll, but you are forgetting one thing. For bettor or worse, Bush is not poll driven. He is agenda driven. That is such a basic difference between most modern politicians and Bush, that most people cannot grasp that point. The funny thing is, if you read on down, people don't like what is happening on the economy, which is starting to suffer the effects of very high energy costs. But, they also don't want to drill in Anwar. Good grief, Charlie Brown. Do you think the two issues might be connected?

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:00:21 PM EST
    CA, I would suggest that if the in-house trolls weren't so well known for their aggressive, all or nothing liberal rants, you wouldn't see so many "wing nuts" showing up to play. As it is, as long as there are those who see this site as a purist haven for all things liberal, no matter how radical or out of touch, it will continue to attract the Freepers and others who just want to make a mess.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:01:57 PM EST
    Many people more eloquent than I have written in defense of the filibuster. On its surface, the filibuster does seem sort of silly. Why should a minority block the wishes of the majority? How does anything get done? Why don't we just allow everything to get a "yea" or "nay" vote? It all comes down to the necessary restriction of the majority's power, and the defense of the minority from the former's tyranny. It ensures a balance, so that narrow majorities cannot push through sweeping changes. It encourages coalition governing, and less partisan politics. It prevents frivolous back-and-forth lawmaking and law-repealing every few years as the other party takes back a slight majority, only to lose it a few years later. Especially when it comes to an issue as important as court-packing. When the judiciaries were created, they were intended to be non-partisan arbiters of justice and law, throwing out unconstitutional legislation pushed by slim majorities in Congress. Checks and balances. Unfortunately, the very nature of politics ensures that the nomination of judges is a partisan sport. So filibusters prevent slim majorities in Congress from installing radical idealogues into lifetime judicial seats. Filibusters ensure that at least a broader consensus must exist that a certain judicial appointment will be fair in their rulings, not just a puppet of either wing. Judges affect all the population, and so all the population should have a say through their representatives in Congress. In short, filibusters preserve our democracy against tyranny of the majority (mob rule).

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:09:19 PM EST
    How could Mr. Smith go to Washington w/out the filibuster?

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:25:57 PM EST
    Just get tired of the baiting at times and wish this was a place where I could communicate with kindred spirits - progressives. We had trouble finding a place to gather back in Germany a few decades ago, too. It's a persistent problem for progressives, we feel called to move the evolution of the human spirit along when the masses want to move with deliberate speed - that's the language of desegregation from Brown v. Board of Education. Deliberate speed translated to "pigs will fly" in many segregated school systems. It's hard work breaking ground for justice, peace, equality. Abolition, labor unions, suffrage, civil rights, miscenegation, now gay rights, peace issues, right to marry, right to die. I can't turn away from these issues, but I get tired of hearing from the peanut gallery some days. This is one of them. If the worst that I came up against logging onto Talk LEFT was an occasional immoderate liberal/progressive rant, I could live with that, but heck if I want to hear right wing idiocy, I can turn on the tv. That's the way I feel about it this evening.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 06:51:35 PM EST
    CA, I can understand your frustration, but perhaps you might consider that a large portion of humanity does not wish to moved in the direction "progressives" want to push it toward. As for immoderate liberals and immoderate conservatives: I've found that it's quite simple to identify those who are simply here to bait and scream, be they from the left or the right. Once they are identified, ignoring them is as simple as not reading their comments. Even easier is to simply not read the comments at all unless you are really interested in what some other readers might have to say on a given subject. Jeralyn does a nice job herself; even when you disagree with her you can almost always appreciate where she is coming from.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 07:10:13 PM EST
    I agree with those above who wish for fewer posts from the right on this blog. Developing progressive thinking beyond the usual "talking points" we use to push back the right would be more useful to me than the back and forth (which, while quite erudite, is usually not particularly original; we usually cover the same ground over and over again when talking to the right. I don't know...It just gets stressful reading the constant arguing and carping. It's OK to preach to the choir: we might learn some new songs if we stop arguing with the "baiters". Also, the opposition view is all around us in the MSM and in all three branches of our government. I'd like to watch the left's political theory evolve beyond the usual back and forth. (But I live in San Francisco, where we don't spend too much time arguing with the right ;) Still, I read this blog every single day, so TL - you must be doing something right.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:22:17 PM EST
    Still looking for an echo, instead of a debate, eh?
    lol! when the wingnuts here participate in or bring forth new and/or original debate, please be so kind as to point it out, all i read here from the right is echoes and talking points, pats on the back, self-important, condescending, hypocritical rhetoric. that has to be countered with the facts, coupled with actual compassion and concern for humanity as many liberals here demonstrate. just dust off or update your filters, this fight has to be won! remember not to toll againt the wingnuts here, but speak instead to the many liberal minds lurking, who never comment (probably for the reasons mentioned).
    Still, I read this blog every single day, so TL - you must be doing something right.
    here also!

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:40:22 PM EST
    My condolences to all those Liberals whose thoughts and ideology cannot pass muster when challenged by an opposing point of view. You must get tired of being proved wrong so often, huh? For back and forth debate, see any number of threads. As for 'Trolls'; may I direct your attention to "Hardleft". He rarely posts anything of substance; his posts are generally "me too" posts or insults, but always deviod of intellectual content (see above). I think that we might all take comfort in the fact that, should he leave, the collective IQ around here would jump at least 5 points.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 08:48:32 PM EST
    mm - Are you so robotic that you need someone to do your thinking and tell you what to think? Good heavens, what have you youngsters come to? hardleft - As a social liberal, actually a Jacksonian in spirit, I get a chuckle when I see the radical Left call the right wing - wingnuts - and then they shout "moonbats" in return. All I see is two sides of the same coin. And while both like to talk about facts, both are woefully short of them. Skaje - You write of "mob rule," but really. How can you? The current administration carries a 51% majority in the popular vote, and a 5 vote majority in the Senate. Now, nowhere in the constitution does it say anything about a super majority needed for judical nomniees. No where in the constitution does it say that filibusters can be used to block debate. And, how can a 5 Senator majority be a "mob?" The constitution is plain: "..and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States,.." Bring your ideas forward. Let the Senate debate, and either confirm or reject. That is democracy. Stopping debate is tyranny. Without doing that, those moonbats can easily claim that you are just an extremist bunch of elitists intent on ruling through edicts from radical judges. Now that may not be true, but you provide no defense to the claim. Thus the middle has slowly swung to the right, and will continue to do so.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:01:02 PM EST
    Newt Gingrich & Co. shut down Congress in the early 90s to get their way. Spare me the self rightous garbage over Democrats blocking [anything]. Seeing the line between Corporatism and Conservatism is kind of like trying to view the planet Mercury through a telescope. One way to make it visible would be for the Democrats to vacate Washington, Gingrich style, to make a point over the removal of the last tool of dissent available to the Democratic Party until the next election. The financeers would be on the red telephones faster than you could say Bear Market. But the Democratic Party Leadership is just another Corporatist tool. As such, you can wave bye-bye to relative normalcy and hello to a wealth of uber-Conservative judges by 2008.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:03:52 PM EST
    ...and as Defense exhibit one, in the matter of /Conscious Angel v. /Overwhelming Number of Wingnut Commenters, I'd like to present Doctor Ace's last 20 or so posts.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 11:58:17 PM EST
    Yes, and if you recall, shutting down the government backfired big time on Gingrich & Co. Of course it also happened in Reagan's term, as I recall. Looking at the discussion, my limited observation is that a big part of the issue is that the current fillibuster isn't really a fillibuster. It simply allows the tabling of a candidate requiring a 60 vote to bring it to the table. It's ever so much more convenient than an actual fillibuster. A fillibuster that requires no work wouldn't have been considered a fillibuster fifty years ago.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 01:18:49 AM EST
    I agree that the right wingers detract from the discourse and the message of TalkLeft. But it also amazes me that so many liberals are anything but when it comes to criminal justice issues. The most noxious commenters from the right, those who repeat themselves ad nauseum with little to add to the debate, or who disagree with every post, just to disagree, are limited to four comments a day. When I get the sense that someone is posting just to hear themselves talk and to bait others, I activate the censor switch. Those who seem genuinely interested in the discourse get to stay. If I've missed someone who is objectionable, send me an e-mail.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 06:45:34 AM EST
    I don't know about the claim that "most Americans favor keeping the filibuster", since this is just one poll and others have shown the opposite, but I for one would prefer to see it actually used before it is done away with. No one has staged a filibuster in years, and the fact that Bill Frist is letting Robert Byrd derail the Senate with a mere threat of using it is an embrassement to the nation as a whole. What is it about the Senate Republicans that stops them from seeing that they can force the issue by forcing Byrd to stand up and make his case?

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:27:29 AM EST
    Leo at march 20 is right as rain, its a joke not a filibuster, but yes keep the filibuster but do it the old way.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:32:56 AM EST
    horse whose name is definitely known, do read the comment and apply what many on the left refer to as comprehension.
    self-important, condescending, hypocritical rhetoric.
    you came right back with it. it's one of those if the shoe fits type thingys, in your case perfectly. you attempt to apply intellect to issues that are quite common sense, no phd required. as for insults, reread your comment. i'm not all bent-out, i expect that from the likes of you and your comrades. dig harder!

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:33:42 AM EST
    justpaul wrote: CA,I can understand your frustration, but perhaps you might consider that a large portion of humanity does not wish to moved in the direction "progressives" want to push it toward. Progressives have always been a minority. Of course the larger portion of humanity does not want to be moved. That's why abolishing slavery was such hard work and took so long. That's why the vote for women was such a hard battle. That's why the right for mixed race couples to get married was fought for so long. It's why today, gay people cannot marry and why today, we are killing Iraqis and Afghanis who never took an aggresive action towards us until we occupied their countries. The point is that this site is called talkleft and it's cruised by nazis constantly, pushing the militarist agenda. Like I said above, if I want to hear this stupidity, I could turn on the tv or listen to Dubya's speeches. Progressives have never been a majority, they have just been on the correct side of most human rights issues for the history of the United States. It's irritating, I know, but there it is. Today, progressives need to be filibustering the destruction of the quality of the federal judiciary. It's an important fight. Progressives in a minority may be able to function as patriots and save the mass of people from themselves if they muster the votes to filibuster and the filibuster is not outlawed. I come here some days with the hope to run into like-minded individuals. So, Jeralyn, any change of filters? Can blogs add filters to these commentary threads? I use filters with my email and so I can avoid a lot of stupidity, lunacy, and commerce. I can't see how I can filter here.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 08:50:17 AM EST
    Yeah sure, CA, you 'progressives' are always on the side of humanity. From supporting Communist Russia, to spitting on Vietnam Vets, to opposing the WOT (and therefore defacto enabling the enemy), to ignoring the plight of the ME people who are in the process of being set free, to advocating the death of Terry Sciavo. You 'progressives' are quite the humanists.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 10:03:37 AM EST
    CA, It wasn't just the self-proclaimed "progressives" who fought against slavery. Nor was it "progessives" only who fought for female suffrage. A lot of people, from all walks of lives and from all political persuasions, joined those causes, and that's because, for most of us, politics is not a one-dimensional zero-sum game. And, as noted above, "progessives" have been on the wrong side of history as well. Joseph Stalin and Mao were "progressives". So is Fidel Castro. And they used their self-appointed mandate for change to change millions of people from being alive to being dead. This is not to slam "progessives" as a negative force; only to acknowledge that no one has a lock on virtue or ethics, and people of all stripes have done great things for humanity, and many not so great things as well. I think we're all a little "progessive", a little "liberal", and, yes, even a little "conservative", it just depends on the specific issue at hand. But that's just my take on things; you are of course free to have your own. The debates will come and go as long as Jeralyn allows them to. And as I noted above, the problems exist on both sides of "the divide" and I believe that these people attract each other. The more virulent the leftist rhetoric gets, the more like a liberal version of Free Republic this blog becomes, and, like Free Republic, that attracts equally strident people from the right who only want to argue from a closed mind. I've given up on "debating" anything with anyone here, as few of those posting comments here have any interest in even considering a different point of view. I just enjoy the material provided, and, sometimes, the more intelligent comments. It really is very easy to weed out the rest by simply ignoring it. With apologies to TalkLeft for being off-topic as it were.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:13:45 AM EST
    by definition, to be on the side of abolition in 1850 made you a progressive. by definition to be on the side of women's right to vote in 1905 made you a progressive. I am not interested in self-proclaimed progressives. Justpaul, if you think that lots of non-progressives worked on abolition or suffrage, provide citation please. Just saying does not make it so. Stalin - progressive? I would have to read up, but I don't think so. My take is that he was a militarist, an opportunist without any driving principles, just in the right place at the right time to seize control of the Russia. Fidel? Well, probably a progressive compared to Batista, but no Che. Like Stalin, once in power, Fidel appears to have succumbed to the comforts of power. Riding the tiger, no way to dismount. Filibuster? yes. It's important to the checks and balances of this fragile democracy. It's a shame that it has to be used. I don't think Fidel and Stalin ever let a filibuster get established. The company you keep.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:40:40 AM EST
    CA, If you conveniently define anyone who agreed with abolition or suffrage as "progressive" and ignore the rest of their politics, then everyone is a progressive on any issue with which they agree with you. Convenient for you this may be, but an accurate representation of the political beliefs of everyone involved it is not. As for Stalin and Fidel: Stalin was a believer in a revolution that changed the course of history and moved Russia from a monarchy to something where the people purportedly ruled. If this doesn't make him a "progressive", the term has no meaning. Likewise with Fidel. And I notice you ignored Mao. Another radical leftist bent on remaking a nation to match his vision. He killed a couple million people and forced many more into "re-education" camps because they did not agree with his view of what was best for China. Mao's "great leap forward" was in fact a great leap backward for many of those intelligent enough and educated enough to see that China was being destroyed by this man who wanted to lead the way to the future. It may not be your definition of "progessive", but Mao would have argued otherwise. Pol Pot also comes to mind as a "progressive" who wanted to force his vision on his people, no matter how many of them he had to kill in the process. In the end, almost every would-be dictator considers himself a "progressive" because he sees his vision for the future as "progress".

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 11:55:04 AM EST
    maybe you have to give up the progressive label when your ideals, commitment to them, and work on their behalf start including the necessity that other people die for your vision? That's a bit of a practical consideration because you are correct that all people think they are progressives. I just tend to think that truly progressive movements are geared to increase in human rights without the need for anyone to die along the way. As soon as military action, violence, mayhem are involved, the progressives are no longer present.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 12:03:25 PM EST
    hence, my difficulty accepting the "progressive" advance of democracy in the middle east. The ends do not justify the means. There were other less evil means available to us.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 02:00:11 PM EST
    CA's blatant attempt to hijack the word 'progressive' is laughable. He's trying to define the Left Wing kook fringe with the nobel actions of those who lived generations ago (and came from BOTH sides of the political aisle). This is the type of guy who would continue to appease murderous dictators and never give a damn about the oppressed populace. He's more concerned with having 7 new judges installed in the federal judiciary than he is about people demonstrating for their Freedom in Lebanon, or those brave Iraqis who risked their lives in huge numbers for a chance to vote in their democracy. How 'progressive'.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    There are none so blind as he who will not see. Back it up with citations please. Show with any credible evidence that either abolition or suffrage had wide support or even roughly equivalent support from both sides of the aisle. It's just not true. Will Rogers said it years ago: it's not the things he don't know that bother me, it's the things he knows for sure that just aren't true.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 03:02:43 PM EST
    Here is the 100 year overview of the suffrage movement: link There are conservatives mentioned, specifically Mrs. Arthur Dodge around 1911, but of course, Mrs. D and her friends were organizing the opposition to suffrage. Will get back to you in a few minutes with abolition and the facts on that. It would be convenient for you if progressive movements were bipartisan. That would fit your rearview mirror world view. It's just not the case. It's kind of like saying the KKK did a lot for African Americans by giving them positions in the orchards.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 03:22:15 PM EST
    Already have. Once the progressive movement decides that violence and coercion are necessary tools to further their ends, that movement is no longer progressive. It is entrenched power establishment. Come on, look over the list of suffrage list and tell me who jumps out at your as your progressive foremother. For me, it's easy. It Stanton, Anthony, Also my grandmother Zella McClellan Coday and her mother Margaret Catherine Brasher McClellan who aren't mentioned, but were rank and file of the movement.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    So I guess your argument is that Susan B. Anthony would be a Republican today. She would be like Condi Rice, I suppose. Well, I don't know what to say about that, but I continue to think that the filibuster is an essential tool of the democratic process. Small d. got it? LBJ waited out a very long filibuster to get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 signed. This he did against southern Democrats til they folded and sent the bill for his signature. Those democrats are no more progressives than Susan B. Anthony is a Republican by today's standards, but I don't want to make you do any library work, so go your way in peace. I urge you to invest your children in the noble democracy building experiment now underway. You and yours will gain so much from the experience. Not to worry, I will not spit on you. Not my style. It makes a good story though. Why do we hate america and spit on vets when we should be cheering them and cutting their benefits?

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 03:51:37 PM EST
    CA, Before we digress to far, let's turn it around. Was Thomas Jefferson, the father of the Democratic party and the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence, a "progressive"? I would think he would meet your definition of working to move mankind in a positive direction. Yet Thomas Jefferson also owned, and most likely sexually used, slaves. Where does he fall on the "progressives support abolition" scale? Don't misunderstand me: Jefferson was a good man, but he was also a flaming hypocrite. He believed in freedom for man, he just conveniently defined "man" to not include those men who were his property. With regard to links: I haven't bothered with links because you've already defined anyone in support of abolition or suffrage as a "progressive". Showing you that conservatives supported those movements is therefore a moot point, as you will most likely simply respond that those people were in fact not conservatives, but progressives. The point I was trying to make is not that "progressives" do not support such and such, but rather that not all "progressives" are liberal and not all conservatives are "anti-progressive". If you want links, it looks like someone else has taken up that cause.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:06:04 PM EST
    Link didn't work. Sorry about that. Trying again.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:16:38 PM EST
    Can't do html anymore today apparently. Wrt Thomas Jefferson - a wonderfully gifted human being who could see the right thing, but often could not do it. He died essentially broke. Congress bought his library, the basis of the library of Congress, so he would not die penniless, if I recall correctly. yes, TJ was a progressive and a hyprocrite. He was also a devout Christian and probably (I hope) struggled with his failings which I trust were as apparent to him in his day as they are to us looking back 200 years. We should all ask ourselves as TJ probably did, are we living up to our principles and if not, why not? Spit on veterans? No, never have, never will. One of those places where you cannot have it both ways. Similarly with Stalin, Fidel, Mao - all those convenient leftists who dropped their progressive tendencies when their self-interest was on the line. People who truly walk the walk are rare. That's why Jesus, Gandhi, MLK and a few others are my heroes. It's unfortunate that walking the walk usually means you will die violently at the hands of less enlightened neighbors and peers. Had TJ pushed abolition in 1800 he might well have been as popular as MLK Jr. was in Memphis in 1968. There are many reasons why any of us may fail to live up to our principle and potential.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:20:23 PM EST
    Horse, you keep confusing left, right, republican, democrat with progressive. Stick to progressive and you will probably find that we have common ground. Do you want Christian fundamentalists or Islamic fundamentalists, or any kind of fundamentalists except constitutional fundamentalists on the bench?

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:22:37 PM EST
    Dr. Ace, I am a born again. I quote old and new testaments frequently. I prefer the new and then specifically the synoptic gospels, but it's a good book with many highlights. Any particular quote you want to go over? I filibuster based primarily on King James version.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:26:17 PM EST
    let him who has ears, hear.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:33:05 PM EST
    Matthew 5:12 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Joshua 24:15 Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord. Beware the heart of darkness.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:37:44 PM EST
    I am smart enough, but it means little in the final analysis, but I try to let my yes be yes, and my no be no. Matthew 5:37 btw. You don't want to understand and I can't make you and wouldn't if I could. Just like spitting on people and killing folks to make them free, the means are as important as the ends. Krishnamurti said more clearly: end and means are one.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:44:56 PM EST
    False prophets. Yes, should always be on the lookout for them. But have to be careful not to miss the opportunity if some guy walks by one day and says follow me. Actually have some cases I have to work on. I wish you well.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 04:47:41 PM EST
    CA, It would be very hard hard to argue that what Mao did was done for his own interest. He had an iron grip on China, so there was no power to be gained, and it would be near impossible to argue that the Cultural Revolution served his own interests. He made that move in an attempt to better China as a whole, which is what you seem to be saying progressives do (please correct me if I'm wrong). The problem is simply that what Mao saw as progress was anything but for the mahority of the chinese who had to suffer through it. The same holds true for Stalin. Stalin had no reason to fear a popular uprising. He had total control of the military and could put any uprising down in days if not minutes. His great purges were not undertaken to do away with his "enemies", they were undertaken to clear what he saw as the detritus of a failed system so that the people could thrive. Misguided? Absolutely. But in his own mind he was no doubt a true progressive. As for what Fidel has been up to: you would have to take it up with him, but I'll give you odds that he will tell you he has been working tirelessly to improve the lot of the average Cuban, even when that meant dragging them forward as they kicked and screamed.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:32:50 PM EST
    deleted. This commenter is limited to four comments a day.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:35:20 PM EST
    Probably the most famous filbuster in our lifetimes. On that day, Republican Everett Dirksen, Democrat Hubert Humphrey and Pres LBJ would have to be counted as progressives. Nothing so strong as an idea whose time has come as Dirksen said that day. Yes, progressives move across party lines and collect on the right side of any specific issue in unique ways. I know this is slippery and I am not trying to be difficult, the matter is complex and defies easy party line analysis. I guess my question: What progressive idea is Dubya pursuing? The obvious answer is democracy in the middle east, but both means and true goals are subject to debate. Intentions would be easier to believe if Iraq was not the second largest reserve of oil on the planet. With regard to the filibuster - is it your opinion that loading the federal judiciary - an appointment for life - with Christian fundamentalists who will defer constitutional issues to their religious point of view is a progressive idea? I think not and in this case the best that progressives can do is to stand and be counted, as in filbuster. Approve no one for the federal bench who is not a wonderfully qualified jurist. There are plenty to pick from, we don't have a shortage. The lesson of judges like Fortas and Scalia is that judicial temperament is a critical factor in appointments. Less than highly qualified candidates should not make the cut. If it takes a filibuster to make the Pres put forward highly qualified candidates, so be it.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 05:36:02 PM EST
    Here are the bio's of the "republican" women's suffragemovement. Note their connection with other well known republican groupos like the Trade Unionists, National Association for Advancement of Colored People, etc. Lots of political spectrum there I guess. Radical suffragets and more moderate suffragets. All well out on the left end of the political spectrum by any reasonable measure.

    Re: Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibus (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Mar 20, 2005 at 07:42:26 PM EST
    see justpaul, it's all very hypothetical and open to fact-checking and historical interpretation, but my abiding interest is in what you or I might feel called to do and how we would recognize and honor our principles through our actions. Today, in the US, I think progressives should be resisting Dubya's desire to pack the federal court with fundamentalists. I think progressives should be working to increase the possibility that gay and lesbian marriage will become recognized. I think progressives should be working to decrease the chance that our military might will be used in aggressive ways around the world to kill people who pose no danger to us. If our work on any of these projects require that we spit on other human beings, or that we imprison, kill or diminish the civil rights of other human beings, we have probably strayed from our principles and our lives will be reviewed at a later time the way that we review Jefferson's high minded language and lack of actual follow through. The major question is what are you and I called to do. Mao, Che, Fidel, Stalin, and others may be fine to study, recognize places where we think they went wrong, but in the long run, in our lives, we have to put one foot in front of another and step into our future and our actions. It may be uncharted territory and true progressives will always be asking themselves certain questions. Right now, I say filibuster nominees to the Court who will undermine our democracy. Though I am a born-again, I respect the experience that led the founding fathers to chart a government with firm separation of church and state. I do not wish to relive the experiences that led them to believe church and state should be separate. If I wanted to do that, Iran, India, Pakistan and other places around the globe could provide the experience. The American Taliban does not have much appeal to me. Filibuster.

    Poll: Most Americans Favor Keeping the Filibuster | 45 comments (45 topical)