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More Compassionate Conservatives for Children

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 03:31:47 PM EST
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First read this New York Times article about what happened to the Thakur family -- and about how many similarly situated children are deported to countries they have never lived in because of a removal (deportation) order against their parents.

Check out the response by one conservative group, referring to the children as "collateral damage," and the response of government officials who are completely indifferent to the children's plight.

But Mark Krikorian, director of the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, which favors restricting immigration, calls such children "collateral damage of their parents' lawbreaking" and of a crackdown that is long overdue.

....From the government's perspective, said Manny Van Pelt, a spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Thakur case was a success. "We did the part that we were responsible for," Mr. Van Pelt said. "We carried out the successful removal of a person who had violated the nation's laws and that the court had determined had to be removed from this country."

What planet do these people come from?

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    More Compassionate Conservatives for Children | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 03:47:24 PM EST
    This is the real "no child left behind" law that Bush was talking about. We just thought it had to do with education.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:18:07 PM EST
    He's absolutely right. If the parents weren't criminals, the children would never be in this position. If the criminals had family values, they would put their children above their desire to be a criminal. UP NEXT: Felon's using children as pawns against extradition and prosecution. Only on TL!

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:18:58 PM EST
    Another example of how the GOP cares about them only up to the minute of birth.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#4)
    by roy on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:29:54 PM EST
    Should we let illegal-by-current-standards aliens stay free in the U.S., imprison them rather than deporting them, or force them to leave their children behind?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:32:49 PM EST
    Hey, neocon, what criminals? Did you read the article? I think not. But hey, let's just go back to the middle ages. You know you want it. They broke the law? Well, then kill them all, root and branch, as they used to say. Less drag on the system, eh?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#6)
    by wishful on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 04:43:34 PM EST
    It seems to me that van pelt and kevorkian (or whatever) are the types that the born agains call "legalistic". That is no compliment.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 05:04:53 PM EST
    This an excellent example of How not to protect ourselfs from future terrorists. This process is a perfect "HOW TO CREATE NEW YOUNG USA HATERS FOR DUMMIES MANUAL".

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 05:23:53 PM EST
    Neocon, you have just been limited to four comments a day on TalkLeft. You have 17 posted already. Come back tomorrow, if you must, and pace yourself. All in excess of four will be deleted.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 08:11:51 PM EST
    Speaking as a "liberal", it's obvious to me that anyone who manages to sneak across our border and then have a child here has a right to stay here in the U.S. Even if they're 9 months pregnant, if they can give birth on our side of the border, bingo!, they're fully entitled to stay here. If you come here seeking asylum, immediately have children so "liberals" like me will write tearful newspaper articles designed to sway public opinion. Now, since I'm speaking as a "liberal", I don't think that's going to cause a mad rush for our borders as millions of people around the world think of us as an easy touch. No sirree! But seriously, I note that Nina Bernstein has made a few appearances in my Immigration & Media Bias category. She specializes in the teary, Sally Struthers pieces that ignore the fact that we have millions of people in the U.S. who shouldn't be here in the first place.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 08:59:24 PM EST
    Laws exist for a reason. No need to get all rubbery legged when an occasional illegal is tossed out, kids & all. Just think what a burden would be lifted off the welfare system if we did it several million more times!

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#11)
    by Rich on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 11:02:04 PM EST
    "We did the part that we were responsible for," Mr. Van Pelt said. "We carried out the successful removal of a person who had violated the nation's laws and that the court had determined had to be removed from this country." Yes, this situation and the rationalized behavior of the government officials makes Ward Churchill seem awfully prescient, don't you think? Americans, particularly government officials and the courts, are predictably obedient to a fault and rationalize obviously cruel, inhuman behavior as "simply doing their jobs". Hannah Arendt, Stanley Milgram, and now Prof. Churchill all described it before, the "banality of evil" and all three were brutally criticized and ostracized for their accurate take on the human condition. And we see it today in the following: - appointment of the architect for death squads in central America, Philippines and Irag, one John Negroponte to a post in national security - the rise of Colin Powell to Chairman JCS and Sec. of State, the mid-grade Army officer who found "nothing" to investigate at My Lai. -torture, rape and murder at Abu Ghraib and Bagram by the toughest of tough and the bravest of the brave from the CIA, Army special forces and Nave seals -and we find it in the massive self-denial and self-delusion of this entire country for failing to accept the depth of our depravity and the extent of our ethical decent.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 17, 2005 at 11:43:29 PM EST
    We will all be collateral damage soon.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 06:34:21 AM EST
    No doubt Fred has a family of mice in his pocket.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 06:52:14 AM EST
    Speaking as a "liberal", it's obvious to me that anyone who manages to sneak across our border and then have a child here has a right to stay here in the U.S.
    Thanks Lone, for saving me a little typing. Yes. I have given this a lot of thought and have decided that criminal intent cannot be attributed to anyone who, for political or economic reasons feel that their health and/or safety are in jeapordy where they are and who hope to better the lives of themselves and their families by emigrating to America (for Chrissake, these are the few remaining people in the world who still love us!). There are current and historical precedents, such as immigration in Africa to avoid famine and conflict - people will naturally gravitate towards the resources. In my opinion, it's the more resourceful people who want to better themselves. Therefore, the onus is on us to protect what is ours, namely our borders. If I were the pres. (hah!), I would have gotten the entire National Guard assigned to our borders. Even if we had to post a guard every hundred feet and develop technology (we're going to Mars, can't we figure this out?)to scan freight, isn't this much more of a National Security Priority? For example, if someone broke into your house through a window whose lock was easy to open from the outside, would you go out and buy an AK-47 or change the locks on the window first? So, if you can get by us across our borders, congratulations. Stop into your local immigration office right away, tell us who you are, get an ID, a background check, and a caseworker to check in with for a while. Get unconfused, people. We're getting distracted by poor workers when we should be looking for terrorists. Our short-sightedness, and knee-jerk reactions to flag-wavers over a threat that is new to us but which most of the world has lived with for years has made us the object of pity, fun and disdain. PRIORITIES!!!!!

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#15)
    by wishful on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 07:05:28 AM EST
    Are babies born in the US of illegal immigrants any less citizens than roy, lonewacko, or anyone else? If so, explain. Oh, you can't. Oh, I see, you guys are super citizens. Those babies are just plain citizens and can be effectively deported at your pleasure. NOW I get it. Have things changed, or have they just become less covert?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 07:20:56 AM EST
    Exactly wishful. Someone who is born on US soil is Native American, regardless of whether their parents were born in Mexico, China, or Mars. That being said, this is a tough issue. I'd error on the side of the child's well being.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 07:55:03 AM EST
    mfox... So, if you can get by us across our borders, congratulations. Don't you think that kind of logic would just breed more attempts? (even if you do have a gaurdsman every hundred feet) Wouldn't it be more effective to get the word out that anyone doing that will be deported? We're getting distracted by poor workers when we should be looking for terrorists. That's the point! What's to stop a hispanic looking terrorists from doing just that? Our short-sightedness, --- over a threat that is new to us but which most of the world has lived with for years has made us the object of pity, fun and disdain. So because terrorism is relatively new to us, we should just say --- "hey...the rest of the world has had to deal with this, so it's no big deal. Now it's our turn" I guess that goes for gas prices, education, cost of living, quality of life, etc..etc ...yes? We here in the good ol USA should just bite the bullet & deal with it...right? We've had it too good for too long? No thanks...

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#18)
    by roy on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 08:35:17 AM EST
    Are babies born in the US of illegal immigrants any less citizens than roy, lonewacko, or anyone else? If so, explain. Oh, you can't.
    You obviously read my comment, so why didn't you answer my question and suggest a solution to the problem? Oh, you can't. See how easy it is to put a lack of words in somebody's mouth in a forum like this? I do consider the children full citizens. I don't think that having citizen children grants special rights to the parents, so the parents should probably be forced to leave. Then the parents have to choose between taking their children to a country they've never been to, or leaving them behind in the care of some American family or organization. So it's a hard problem to solve. Do we relax immigration policy to be nicer to the parents, or somehow keep the children in the U.S. when we make the parents leave?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 08:43:00 AM EST
    roy... Do we relax immigration policy to be nicer to the parents, or somehow keep the children in the U.S. when we make the parents leave? No roy..what we do is have all the libs who want the kids to stay open up their houses & take them in. Sounds like a plan to me.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 09:03:25 AM EST
    BB, Interesting, though typical arguments. My position is exceptional, but I like it and want to give your arguments a shot: mfox...
    So, if you can get by us across our borders, congratulations. Don't you think that kind of logic would just breed more attempts? (even if you do have a gaurdsman every hundred feet)
    People aren't attempting now? And why would the number of people attempting matter if our borders were secure??
    Wouldn't it be more effective to get the word out that anyone doing that will be deported?
    Isn't that what's not working now?
    We're getting distracted by poor workers when we should be looking for terrorists. That's the point! What's to stop a hispanic looking terrorists from doing just that?
    Um...they'd have to register as an alien within our borders (you want fingerprints and background checks? I'll give you that) This way it seems to me that we could focus on those individuals who haven't registered and therefore have something to conceal. The argument here is that deporting kids or terminating parental rights is making us safer!!
    Our short-sightedness, --- over a threat that is new to us but which most of the world has lived with for years has made us the object of pity, fun and disdain. So because terrorism is relatively new to us, we should just say --- "hey...the rest of the world has had to deal with this, so it's no big deal. Now it's our turn"
    I guess that goes for gas prices, education, cost of living, quality of life, etc..etc ...yes? We here in the good ol USA should just bite the bullet & deal with it...right? We've had it too good for too long? No, but we should stop running around like chickens with our heads cut off deporting poor slobs and their families. We look like Nero after he found out about a plot to kill him - even poor Seneca his teacher wasn't immune from his rage and paranoia.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 10:56:46 AM EST
    mfox.... People aren't attempting now? And why would the number of people attempting matter if our borders were secure?? Sure they are...have been for decades. The amount of attempts wouldn't matter if our borders were secure... My point is, our borders are not secure, and even with guardsmen every hundred yards or so, they would still try knowing if they were successful we would welcome them with open arms & give them all the rights we do for legal citizens...as you suggested Another problem is the Mexican government has printed a book with useful hints on how to sneak across the border & get the bennies once you do. I think that is deplorable! We need to get tougher on the Mexican government! Isn't that what's not working now? No..that was my point... we aren't deporting them ...we are welcoming them and that just breeds more people wanting to come. The argument here is that deporting kids or terminating parental rights is making us safer!! I'm not sure that is the argument... But my point is...if you are not here legally (no matter what your age) you need to go. And we need to rethink the policy that if you are born here...you are automatically a citizen. If your parents are here illegally...so are you if your mom happens to give birth to you after sneaking under the fence. I (as a tax payer) am tired of paying for these people.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 12:33:35 PM EST
    Boy, what a surprise that people who think the US is God's gift to white people want to do away with the Constitution - y'know the 14th Amendment, the one that says all those born here are Citizens and prohibits discrimination based on nationality or alienage.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 12:58:13 PM EST
    It's a tough situation for the 10-yr. old, but I don't see where it's the big bad GOP's fault. Everybody hand-wringing over the 'deporting of the poor child' should actually read the article. His mother was deported, not him. He's a legal citizen. The father, who is also a legal citizen, sent him with the mother. How is that our fault? The worst thing the gov. did (and I'll grant it was terrifying for the child) was not pulling him off the plane without his mom. As for his alienation in a country he doesn't know, that's not our fault either. It would be the same if I took a job in [ ] and moved my family there. This "I'll sneak into America and (maybe) become a citizen later" stuff has to stop. Rather than blaming government for ENFORCING OUR LAWS, maybe the parents should think about the consequences to the children they have and plan to have later. I find it amusing that many here refuse to lay any blame on them. America is a great country; everyone wants to come here for a chance at a better life. But if you condone and excuse illegal immigration, you encourage illegal immigration. There's no other way around it.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 01:56:36 PM EST
    Peter J B.... Boy, what a surprise that people who think the US is God's gift to white people want to do away with the Constitution HA...first of all I never claimed the US was god's gift to white people... (I'm assuming you aren't white after making that comment?) But seeing as how my taxes are paying for illegal's, I think I have a say? I also never said anything doing away with the constitution... just amending that amendment. 14th Amendment, the one that says all those born here are Citizens and prohibits discrimination based on nationality or alienage. Yeah... That's all well & good, but that was written before several million Mexicans slipped under the fence and became a huge strain on the backs of American taxpayers! It needs to be re-defined.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#25)
    by roy on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 02:06:07 PM EST
    B.B., where are the numbers to back up your point about illegal (Mexican) aliens being a major tax suck?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 02:25:20 PM EST
    A February 2005 study entitled “The Contribution of Legal Immigration to the Social Security System” found that, over the next 75 years, new legal immigrants entering the U.S. will provide a net benefit of $611 billion in present value to America’s Social Security system, according to official Social Security Administration data. Illegal immigrants also contribute far more to the system than they take out - although their contributions are obviously harder to quantify. Oh, wait, that shows the OPPOSITE of what B.B. claims. What B.B. doesn't realize is that, unless we maintain our current immigration levels, both legal and illegal, our economy will collapse. The Chinese aren't going to buy our worthless T-bills forever. Even the vast majority of Republicans realize this fact, and that's why Bush et al support legislation to provide some status to those here illegally. Restrictionists would turn us into Albania under Communism, although with nicer cars.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 02:29:26 PM EST
    Illegal immigrants also contribute far more to the system than they take out - although their contributions are obviously harder to quantify. Got a link for that?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 03:11:58 PM EST
    I'll do you one better, S.U.O. (1) "Over the long run an additional immigrant and all descendants would actually save the taxpayers $80,000.” Testimony of Ronald D Lee, Member, National Academy of Sciences Panel on the Demographic and Economic Impacts of Immigration, Before the Senate Immigration Subcommittee, “Economic and Fiscal Impact of Immigration,” (Sept. 9, 1997). (2) Immigrant households paid an estimated $133 billion in direct taxes to federal, state, and local governments in 1997, according to a study by Cato Institute economist Steve Moore. http://www.immigrationforum.org/about/articles/tax_study.htm. (3)Immigrants in New York State pay over $18 billion a year in taxes, over 15 percent of the total, and roughly proportional to their size in the state’s population, according to a study by the Urban Institute. Average annual tax payments by immigrants are approximately the same as natives—$6,300 for immigrants versus $6,500 natives.http://www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=900094 (4) The report by the National Academy of Sciences also found that immigrants benefit the U.S. economy overall, have little negative effect on the income and job opportunities of most native-born Americans, and may add as much as $10 billion to the economy each year. As a result, the report concluded, most Americans enjoy a healthier economy because of the increased supply of labor and lower prices resulting from immigration. The New Americans, National Research Council, 1997, p. S-5. (5)In a poll of eminent economists conducted by the CATO Institute in the mid-1980s and updated in 1990, 81 percent of the respondents opined that, on balance, twentieth-century immigration has had a “very favorable” effect on U.S. economic growth. Moreover, 56 percent of the economists polled believed that more immigration would have the most favorable impact on the U.S. standard of living, while another 33 percent felt that the current levels of immigration would have the most favorable impact. Julian L. Simon, “Immigration: The Demographic and Economic Facts,” Cato Institute and National Immigration Forum (Dec. 11, 1995). I suppose you'll tell me CATO Institute economists are a buncha lefty treason lobbyists, right?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 03:15:24 PM EST
    Illegal immigrants also contribute far more to the system than they take out Rou, key word here is "illegal." Got a link?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#30)
    by cp on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 05:34:24 PM EST
    TL, did you actually read the ny times article? if you had, you would have noted, as a sharp, earlier poster did, that the children were not deported, only the mom. the dad decided to send them with mom, because he couldn't handle them alone. while unfortunate, how does that case of bad decision making become the u.s. government's fault? single parents handle one, two or more children, all by themselves, in this country, every day of the year. what's this guy's problem? i feel sorry for the kids, i don't know if deporting mom was right or wrong, though it appears she was clearly in violation of the immigration laws. i do wonder, with everyone now gone, exactly what family is it that dad is supporting?

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#31)
    by wishful on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 09:40:00 PM EST
    cp, you need to read the article to its conclusion.

    Re: More Compassionate Conservatives for Children (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Sat Feb 19, 2005 at 09:32:25 AM EST
    B.B., Any link to that booklet the Mexican Government prints up? The one about how to get here and get the bennies? No way it exists and can't be found on the net. Love to see it. Peace.

    More Compassionate Conservatives for Children | 32 comments (32 topical)