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Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:22:39 AM EST
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A federal immigration judge in Los Angeles has ordered Islamic charity fundraiser Abdel Jabber Hamdan deported. Hamdan has lived in Southern California for more than 20 years.

Hamden was born in a Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan. The Judge considerately didn't order him back there:

Judge Sitgraves said he could not be sent to Jordan, where he was born in a Palestinian refugee camp, because he would be at risk of torture by the Jordanian government because he has been accused by the American authorities of terror-related activities.

So where will we deport him to? This is one of the worst parts of our immigration system. People without a country end up in indefinite detention. The Supreme Court said in Zadvydas v. Davis in 2001 that if a person is not deported within 6 months after the order, the Government cannot continue to hold them. It issued a similar ruling a few months ago in a case involving Mariel Cubans.

But have any been released or sent to other countries? Or does the Government just continue to hold them?

As to Hamdan's offense, the Judge found only this:

[he]knew or should have known that the money he raised for the Holy Land Foundation was being used to support terrorism. The government contends that the foundation has funneled more than $12 million to Hamas and other Palestinian organizations that the United States considers sponsors of terrorism.

The ACLU has more on the unfairness of indefinite detentions.

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    Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported | 83 comments (83 topical)
    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#1)
    by Richard Aubrey on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:14:10 AM EST
    Send him wherever he was sending the money. Whoever it was would no doubt be grateful and treat him well.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:30:01 AM EST
    From the NYT Item: "In its case against him, federal officials produced videotapes of meetings Mr. Hamdan attended that included members of Hamas and other anti-Israel Palestinians. Mr. Hamdan said he never condoned violence and had no say in how the money he raised for the Holy Land Foundation was spent." Kind of sounds like "I know nothing. I see nothing. I was just following orders." Anyone who claims to be unaware of what Hamas does is either facetious or willfully ignorant. Still, they need to find somewhere to send this guy. Maybe France?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:53:46 AM EST
    Hmmm, let's see, Jordan keeps the Pals in camps for 30 years and never gives them passports..... Hmmm, let's see, he raised money for Hamas (a terrorist organization, natch) and no-body else will take him.... I think the alternative is to have Condi take him to France and drop him off for some infinite detention there. Yes, they do that in France. -C

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:03:51 AM EST
    Trolls, The French were right and Bush was wrong. Deal with it.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:06:08 AM EST
    Let me make sure I understand: He's been in the US for 20 years?. There's nothing in the article about him being a 'naturalized citizen'; he had every opportunity, but never became one. Caught on a visa violation that could have been cleared up, but he didn't care to. Found to be donating money to terrorist organizations. So he'll be deported. At the risk of seeming a chauvinist or being slapped with the 'xenophobe' brush, what's the freakin' problem? It isn't like he came here being chased by anybody. Evidently he didn't apply for refugee status. Any normally expected assumptions of anti-Zionism on his part aside, active associations he made with groups openly hostile to Israel had to put him on DHS's radar soon enough as a matter of course. Teddy Roosevelt warned early in the last century about not letting America become an 'international flophouse' where people with no allegiance to this country will continue their age-old rivalries here. (That goes for pro-Zionist Jews as well as anti-Zionist Muslims.) This is a small example of what happens when that advice isn't heeded.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:12:01 AM EST
    The only problem as I see it is the indefinite detention which has been ruled illegal.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:20:20 AM EST
    Che... Bush was re-elected & the French suck...you deal with it!

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:22:43 AM EST
    In agreement with Nemo. There should be a limit on how long you can stay in the US without either becoming a US citizen or declaring yourself to have no interest in US citizenship. You would basically becoming a long-term US resident, but a citizen of your home country, with the assumption that you can return home at any time.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:01:12 AM EST
    The immigration system sure is a mess. A big problem I see now is that immigration reform (which predominantly involves illegal workers undercutting the economy) is getting mixed up with anti-terror legislation, even though they examine and solve two opposing problems, i.e., anti-terror efforts aim to cull potential terrorists out of the masses of folks who just want to work, so are theoretically not interested in burocratic nets that are too wide - aimed to catch all illegals. Re: this specific guy, the first thought I have is that we know where he is and what he's doing - deporting him won't stop him from continuing to support militant Islam/terrorism - so why are we so quick to send him off into anonymity from whence we may see him emerge as a face on a card deck someday?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:48:50 AM EST
    Hey nemo, your assumption that he didn't apply for refugee status is contradicted by the quote from the judge granting him protection against removal to Jordan. And, Ms. Hay, the system you propose is the system we have. People who aren't willing to renounce all allegiances to their home countries, aren't willing to take the civics test, don't care about voting, or whatever, often end up just keeping legal permanent resident (green card) status - often because they still want to visit family in their home countries without hassles. These LPRs pay the price for their decision not to apply for Naturalization because they can be deported for a wide swath of offenses you or I would consider minor. I'll bet they deport Hamdan to Palestine - since the US can now deport people to places with no governments - and since ICE gives as much credence to the Supreme Court's Zadvydas decision as the Defense Dept. pays the Geneva Convention, I wager he'll spend the next two years in detention -- at a cost of $80-200 a day to U.S. taxpayers.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:25:18 AM EST
    Before 9/11 Bush was a Islamic Fundraiser, remember the 43 million for the taliban? can this judge deport Bush and business?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:36:08 AM EST
    Better keep that down Fred, you'll burst a lot of neo-con bubbles, shattering their flawed world view. "We supported the Taliban and Al Qaida before they became the greatest threats known to mankind"

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:51:10 AM EST
    mfox - Deporting him will prevent him from raising money to send to the terrorists. That is the point.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:51:38 AM EST
    He did not apply when he first got here, PJB. I made that clear when I posted it. So now? He's evidently made some enemies because of his activities after he came here, not before.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:04:31 AM EST
    Deporting him will prevent him from raising money to send to the terrorists
    How do you figure?? We'll keep his cellphone?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    Yeah, and my point was that your argument that he didn't apply for refugee status immediately after arriving on a valid student visa is irrelevant if his refugee claim is that he fears persecution on account of events that happened after he came here. It would be the same if, for example a person from Iran converted to Christianity after coming here - the fact that an applicant fears persecution because of beliefs or actions taken in this country doesn't make the claim invalid.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:50:40 AM EST
    Kdog... "We supported the Taliban and Al Qaida before they became the greatest threats known to mankind" Yeah...and we sided with those communist Russians in WWII...while we killed hundreds of thousands of Japs & Germans, who are now our friends... and we sided with Saddam against Iran... and..... So your point is?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#18)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:52:27 AM EST
    B.B., It is readily apparent that the Bush administration, as feeble minded as they are, are miles ahead of you in their grasp of diplomatic reality. Or are Condi and Rummy kissing French ass in your opinion? And shouldn't you be taking your HS exit exams about now?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#19)
    by ras on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:24:39 AM EST
    Che, Man, do you sound frustrated these days, not at events per se, but at the decline and now impotence of the Left. You're thinking like a fan, not a player, and you're only hurting yourself this way. The Left is irrelevant, yesterday's news; that's just the way it is. You can see this in the good humor of so many conservatives these days; the Left just ain't the threat it once was and never will be again, so we can afford to smile. It's over. The rest of the decline is, in military terms, called "mopping up." Nothing you do is going to change that, and actually it's a good thing because socialism has only brought misery to the world anyway. Find some other cause to march for or you'll always be this p.o.'d at the world. Keep the Che nickname if you think it's cool; makes a nice t-shirt, too. Good luck.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:32:11 AM EST
    Che.. Or are Condi and Rummy kissing French ass in your opinion? Well...let's just say I'd tell the French to 'bite me'. Who needs em'? They are pretty much worthless And shouldn't you be taking your HS exit exams about now? Nope...I'm a HS dropout dude. HS warps your brain... maybe that's your problem?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:54:29 AM EST
    mfox - Don't be obtuse. He was running a charity in LA. If he is not there, he will have a great deal of difficulty running it. Duh.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:01:02 PM EST
    "We supported the Taliban and Al Qaida before they became the greatest threats known to mankind" Are you saying we should have the same policy no matter how other people changes in the world? It just shows that the Taliban and Al Qaida are ungrateful, back-stabbing SOBs that deserves whatever bomb that we decide to drop it on their head. The US support slavery too 200 years ago and we don't now. Country changes position, hopefully from bad to good, all the time. What is the big deal?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:02:12 PM EST
    So, he came here as a 'student'. Yeah, right. I knew lots of foreign 'students' who came to the US ostensibly for an education. (And I wonder to this day how many of them I was supporting with my tax dollars given to them as 'aid' by the US while I had to work in a restaurant to earn enough to go to college; I saw them at that same restaurant day in and day out. Not bad for a 'student' stipend, hey?) For example, in the case of many Iranian so-called 'students' in ther late 1970's, many of them turned out in massive, disruptive rallies against US support for the Shah...and in one famous incident in DC, they attacked police with thick wooden poles that they used for their signs. Some may be here for a legitimate education, but you don't stay a 'student' for twenty years. He's no student now; on what form of visa did he remain?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:30:48 PM EST
    no name.... It just shows that the Taliban and Al Qaida are ungrateful, back-stabbing SOBs that deserves whatever bomb that we decide to drop it on their head. LOL.... right on!

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#25)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:41:32 PM EST
    Comrade Che- “The French were right and Bush was wrong.” Mr. Hans Blix, in his recent book ‘Diasrming Iraq-The search for Weapons of Mass Destruction, details his discussion with French intelligence. Apparently they, like all intelligence cervices of UNSC member states, were convinced Iraq possessed significant stockpiles of banned weapons. It might be more appropriate to say President Chirac was right, regarding his notorious ‘intoxication’ caveat. Even more fitting would be to say he was intoxicated by TotalFinaElf.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 12:56:22 PM EST
    B.B. writes
    Nope...I'm a HS dropout dude. HS warps your brain... maybe that's your problem?
    . LoL - Che - didn't you know? American public education is actually a vast left wing conspiracy designed to empower people to think critically. Similarly, a formal education is not needed to have common sense, or a lack of it. Would you like a "more power to ya, B.B. or a GED study guide" And make sure to see Good Will Hunting, BB, it takes the cake for misplaced working class pride. Lack of an education is not something to be ashamed of, but please don't take pride in it - as if education were part of some liberal, white sell-out machine. Especially when garnering your opinion. I hope you at least read a lot.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 01:11:37 PM EST
    Are you saying we should have the same policy no matter how other people changes in the world?
    No, I'm saying we shouldn't support dictators, tyrannical theocracies, and terrorist groups under any circumstances. Even when it's convenient or advantageous for us to do so. And the Taliban didn't change, they always gave AQ a safe haven, even when Taliban leaders were honored guests of then Gov. Bush in Texas.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 01:12:45 PM EST
    And we're not talking about 200 yrs ago, or even 60. Try 10.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 01:50:53 PM EST
    So why not see it for what it is? The world is nut's, and I think kissing french butt maybe the thing to do. In fact the french know how to fight guys like Bin Laden, its called kill or pay-off's,...French Foreign Legion, and for 50 years that has always worked and the boys in that legion have covered our butt many, many times, so i say start kissing. by the way you do know about the pakistani, deal with bush and north korean right?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:11:19 PM EST
    Fred - you really are sometimes a great big breath of fresh air blowing away the smell of rot.
    I think kissing french butt maybe the thing to do.
    LOL - TL re-defines the "French kiss" BTW - are they still serving "Freedom Fries" in the Congressional cafe? I though some crow might be on the menu after the WMD debaucle?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:18:55 PM EST
    mfox... Lack of an education is not something to be ashamed of, but please don't take pride in it Not to worry foxy... I just dropped out of my local HS... I did get edumicated another way tho.... Thanks for worrying...LOL as if education were part of some liberal, white sell-out machine. No, not at the HS level at least. But most colleges, (U of Colorado for example) well now that's another story. I hope you at least read a lot. Yeah, I get all my info from TL

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:54:37 PM EST
    Nemo, you're so right, it IS outrageous that foreign students are allowed to eat in restaurants. It's ridiculous that you're complaining about foreign students who could pay their own way AND afford to support local businesses and pay tips to proud Citizens like you. But you never got over your resentment, huh? After all, THEY should be serving YOU, right? I don't know anything other than what I read in this article about how Hamdan remained here, and I don't know how or even whether he got a green card. You're right that student visas don't last for 20 years - they last only while the student is attending classes and paying tuition. If a student stops doing either, they are placed in removal proceedings. In my never humble opinion, they're deporting him for some false statement on his visa application since they can't prosecute this guy for his association with terrorists. It's like going after Capone for taxes. Student visas are absolutely necessary for attracting the best and brightest that have always been crucial in making our country both wealthy and safe (the weapons that won WWII, and if you like, the Cold War, could not have been built without immigrants like Fermi, Einstien, Teller, Von Braun, etc.). An Iranian can't be a legitimate foreign student if they oppose U.S. meddling in their country? Gimme a break. If you xenophobes take power, you would bring our nation to its knees. Many of the world's best and brightest already don't want to come here - many actually think they will get more hospitality and freedom studying in Communist China - their rate of foreign applications has skyrocketed, while ours have plummeted. Closed-off nations die quickly.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:57:42 PM EST
    B.B. I hate your comments (not because you're always right, like I'm sure you're thinking, but because I don't want to live in a country of your design) but give you credit for at least having a sense of humor.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 03:04:14 PM EST
    PJB - Nemo obviously has a chip on their shoulder. It does suck to have to work to pay for books while the children of the uber-rich frolic about you (I should know - I put myself through night school at Harvard). It takes a lot of work to not hold a grudge. I would argue that Nemo shouldn't have had to work so hard to get a college education. I would argue further that people should not be allowed/encouraged to join the military because they can't afford college ("good thing my college is wheelchair accessible"!).

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 04:14:01 PM EST
    Che: The French were right and Bush was wrong. Sure. Funneling 36Billion USD through Banque Lyonnais out of the mouths of Iraqi babes and into the silky pockets of Saddam, The UN Kleptocracy, and other miscreants was right on.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 04:26:35 PM EST
    I knew could count on someone here twisting what I said out of all recognition. You shouldn't assume things, PJP. It usually causes the person making the assumption to look an ass. It's ridiculous that you're complaining about foreign students who could pay their own way AND afford to support local businesses and pay tips to proud Citizens like you. They never tipped. They were rude and contemptuous. They were also here not on their dime, but on ours (foreign aid to thank for that). They didn't show their anti-Shah feelings until after Khomeini took power, so they were hardly the romaticized freedom fighter types you wish them to be. And they attacked US policemen in the course of their also attacking a pro-Shah group picketting next to them. Are you saying it's okay for our cops to be seriously injured by foreign 'students' for doing their jobs in preventing violence? You're right that student visas don't last for 20 years - they last only while the student is attending classes and paying tuition. If a student stops doing either, they are placed in removal proceedings. Evidently, they didn't. Student visas are absolutely necessary for attracting the best and brightest that have always been crucial in making our country both wealthy and safe (the weapons that won WWII, and if you like, the Cold War, could not have been built without immigrants like Fermi, Einstien, Teller, Von Braun, etc.) This is tantamount to saying Americans can't make it on our own, that we can't produce the finest engineers and scientists, that we have to import them. Or are you saying something else? BTW, most of the ones you mentioned were let in here long before Hitler invaded Poland. They were the lucky ones; the US turned away scores of thousands of people even though it was evident that under the Nazi regime they faced extinction. And about von Braun: this may shock you, dear boy, but von Braun and his gaggle of brains were Nazi Party members brought here illegally and secretly against Truman's public orders of not importing Nazis. The information on high altitude effects upon human beings that they traded for entry here had been gathered in ghastly experiments on concentration camp victims (like sticking them in hyperbaric chambers and reducing air pressure until they began to die from explosive decompression) is another example of importing that kind of 'technical expertise'. Look up "Operation Paperclip" for further information. You should be more careful in your examples. They might turn around and bite you. Those scientists weren't the only Nazis imported; known Nazi war criminals with blood on their hands were also imported, for another kind of 'expertise'. They were folded into the then nascent CIA...which now sees nothing wrong with torture. Nor does our military. Nor does our government. Who gave them the idea it was okey-dokey? Take a guess. Another import we could have done without. If you xenophobes take power, you would bring our nation to its knees. How many languages can you speak? How many countries have you actually lived in? (5 languages and 3 countries). I am nobody's idea of a xenophobe; what I am is someone deeply concerned that we have yet to learn lessons other nations have learned to their sorrow. One of them is to be bloody careful about what you let into your borders, as you may find you've opened yourself to problems that would not have existed otherwise. It always amazes me that so many people on the Internet think the sum total of a human being's life can be summarized by the few things they say on the Net. From that assumption often comes swift and erroneous judgement as to the totality of their personality and experiences. You don't know me that well enough to judge me. Nor I you. Keep that in mind next time you wish to leap to conclusions.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 04:44:07 PM EST
    mfoxm writes - "I would argue that Nemo shouldn't have had to work so hard to get a college education." Why? What has he done that indicates that he should receive something not available to all? Fred D - Can you say Vietnam? Algeria?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#38)
    by ras on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 04:58:07 PM EST
    Of note to those who are interested in student immigration. Bill Gates has a beef, too, it turns out. In Bill's case, however, I suspect he'd back it up w/bucks, if he had to. PJB, Nemo had a point, and twisting it just so you can display your self-proclaimed moral superiority doesn't change that. You trying to attract a mate? We had the same immigrant-student situation in Canada (you remember Canada, that perfect little country you wanna move to, with God in the constitition and Christ in the anthem?). Specifially, we had the prob in BC. Still do, tho to a smaller extent. Around the time China was fixing to take over Hong Kong, a lot of the HK-'ers wanted to get outta there. Who can blame them? Vancouver was one of their first choices, specifically a suburb known as Richmond was popular, along w/the downtown. These were the high-density areas most like HK and they favored the familiar. Loads of money came in and the real estate skyrocketed. It was all HK money driving it; maybe a little Macau as well; you get the drift. But it came thru family, so we saw any number of properties sold for, say, C$500,000+ - a lot more in today's dollars - to "students." The student was the first of the family to come over, and so bought the property using family money sent for that purpose. Now, I have no prob w/that - family is the traditiona form of immigration; its how my family came here, too, back when. And the HK'ers are good folk; I don;t think any of them ever proposed flying planes into the high-rises, for example. But the thing is, the students were all being heavily subsidized by our tax dollars, and yes, that part bothered a lot of people (almost all, in fact, including previous generation HK immigrants) to see people who could plunk down a half mil, cash, for a house, being subsidized for their education while other services - health, for example - degenerated. That is the sort of point I think Nemo was making. Read it with comprehension, rather than just skimming to locate the subject so you'll know which sterotypical shibs to pull out, and you'll see what I mean.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:03:16 PM EST
    Nemo This is tantamount to saying Americans can't make it on our own, that we can't produce the finest engineers Of course, we do produce the best and brightest right here in our soil. But as Vladimir I. Ulyanov once said (paraphrased): The only Capital is the Human Capital. This country has always enriched itself by the bright human capital lapping upon our shores.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:04:57 PM EST
    OK sorry. I keep thinking this is adults only. Let's clarify: The French were right NOT TO GO TO WAR. So was the rest of the civilized world. Bush was wrong to GO TO WAR. The Oil for Food debacle was MULTINATIONAL. Bush's war has killed 100K innocent civilians (like you and me only arab so it's not so bad). The sanctions killed even more. Get it yet? NOW deal with it. F***ing trolls. Sorry, did I say that out loud?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#41)
    by ras on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:10:31 PM EST
    Che, ain't gonna give it up, are you? You lost. You were wrong. Just say oops and get on w/your life, already. Afghanis and Iraqis love democracy. Woo hoo democracy! Must be spring; looks like you're trying to attract a mate, too. Must be having trouble, I guess, or you sure wouldn't be trying it here!

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:20:12 PM EST
    Che, The French were right NOT TO GO TO WAR. I guess that if you are glad to be in the pay roll of that Mass Murderer, called Saddam Al-Husseini, you shouldn't go to war. It was a nice going while it lasted for them. Sorry for spoiling their spend-happy party.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:41:33 PM EST
    ras - Energized by a good pile-on. Funny,just like your proxie-facist friends at Abu Ghraib. Definate sign of a coward - and we know youre a liar. Whoo hoo.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#44)
    by ras on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:47:20 PM EST
    Jondee, Man, can you only lamely repeat my own jokes back to me, spiced with your usual biting wite (e.g. "we know youre a liar" - wow, that's sharp)? I'm gettin' tired of havin' to write all your material for you. Buy a book if you have to. Or watch some old Johnny Carson reruns and use his jokes; they'll all be fresh again.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#45)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:24:28 PM EST
    Ras, Give it up? To who? You? LMFAO! And your trite sexual frustration attacks are so cute but quite reveal your frustration. I understand. When someone is so consistent in arguing agianst your position that your only recourse is personal attack, the debate is finished and you have again wound up on the losin' end. Back OT: If your idea of Democracy is the current state of Iraq (no electricity, water or gasoline, attacks on the INCREASE)), then I'll take socialism any day. S**t I'd vote too if it MIGHT get the faucet turned back on. We've placed these people in such terrible conditions that even WE look better than a candle for lights. Regressives keep banging their heads (and Iraqi's too when they can) against the wall on these issues like mass murder and Democracy. The bottom line is that this war is illegal and Bush lied us into it. We've killed nearly as many Iraqis as SH in a fraction of the time. To the average Iraqi we are no better than he was, despite your precious elections. And when the next terror attack hits us, maybe you too will come to the same logical conclusion. Bush only brings more death and destruction, not less. War is racism.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#46)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:29:57 PM EST
    Chechito, And when the next terror attack hits us, maybe you too will come to the same logical conclusion. One phrase: NOLITE CARBORUNDUM. To foreign agression in our home soil, some are prone to put forward their rear end, I on the other hand will be proud to bare up my chest

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 07:54:47 PM EST
    Leftist here are Vlad's "useful idiots". Many here give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute your confused notions and spineless behavior to brainwashed ignorance, your moral high road, rather than the low road of dishonesty. You're welcome. You don't see, we are posting over your heads to the thousands of lurkers here who never post, but see you for what you are. Who's laughing now?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 08:00:12 PM EST
    'Ere 'ere Dr Ace

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#49)
    by ras on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:14:19 PM EST
    Che, That's the great thing about lucking out (yeah, it was luck, not skill) and marrying the greatest woman a man could ever ask for. Sorry to disappoint. You, however, sound like a young guy who really needs a girlfriend. Hope you find one, I really do. Cheers. p.s. If you wanna try socialism and you're worried about the power going out, try living in North Korea for a while. The power never goes out there. Never goes on either.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#50)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:52:00 PM EST
    Ras, Arguementum ad hominum. Is that all you got? I say the president lied us into a war that has killed 100K+ and aall you can say is I need to get laid? Do you have any idea how lame that is? No wonder you blog here. No one in Canada would waste time debating the issues with you. I guess I was dumb enough to. Until now.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#51)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:57:38 PM EST
    Ras, I mixed the Latin response with another commenter, but my above comment still stands. Say goodnight, Gracie.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:04:32 AM EST
    nemo, from your response, it seems my assumptions about you are absolutely correct: your restrictionist ire stems from being annoyed at having to serve foreign students!!! You admit same and I'M the ass? Ha. It's also hilarious that you think that it would be justifiable to withhold refugee protection since we sent WWII refugees back to the Nazi gas chambers. THAT'S WHY REFUGEE PROTECTION EXISTS, MORON!!! So it doesn't happen again. And the Von Braun example just shows that even undesirables can make enormous contributions to our country. And your opinion that our current tortue policy has something to do with admitting an errant Nazi scientist half a century ago is ludicrious. This administration doesn't need any help in that regard. Setting your bizarre theory off in italics doesn't make it any more plausible. You are wrong that foreign students are paying tuition in U.S. universities with foreign aid. And given that a tiny, tiny fraction of our tax revenue goes to foreign aid, I think your Jesse Helms "foreign ratholes" attitude towards aiding other countries has been debunked. When we allow states to degenerate into chaos or tyranny, we can no longer assume the effects won't reach our shores. And, guess what, I speak foreign languages and have lived in foreign countries. How many? Not going to tell you, I don't want that turd ras claiming I'm trying to impress people.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:56:51 AM EST
    Che.... Is that all you got? I say the president lied us into a war that has killed 100K+ and aall you can say is I need to get laid? That's all you ever say... "Bush lied" How many times can people try to tell you what a lie really is before you get it? Everybody that saw the mountains of evidence (including John Kerry & most of Congress) agreed that Saddam had to be stopped. Get off the "lie" thing already will ya? It's old and doesn't apply... As you say... "Deal with it"!!! Do you have any idea how lame that is? Good question.... do you????

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:14:43 AM EST
    B.B. Chechito sounds like he needs a new needle in his Old Victrola.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#55)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:44:39 AM EST
    Comrade Che- “Bush was wrong to GO TO WAR.” US Constitution, Article 1, section 8, clause 11: [The Congress shall have Power ] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water Perhaps it was in the interest of brevity, but it seems you left out quite a few folks in the senate and the house . “Get it yet? … NOW deal with it. … F***ing trolls.” Immediately followed by “When someone is so consistent in arguing agianst your position that your only recourse is personal attack,” Reposted just for the amusing insincerity.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:06:47 AM EST
    JPJ, have you had your optometrist check up lately? Or is it your mental peripheral vision, seeing only what you want to see, that's troubling you? Look again. My primary concern is for this nation's security and the health of it's society, not feeding my ego. You fail to respond to a main point I made: we admitted known war criminals into not only our society, but the highest levels of our intelligence apparatus. Is this acceptable to you? From your comment it would seem so. I made it quite clear that there were ramifications of that: the adoption of a mindset on the part of some highly placed individuals in the US government that finds torture acceptable practice being one such ramification. I repeat: where and from whom do you think the germ of that idea originated? You still haven't answered me except with braying derision, not factual information. This has never been about me; had I not injected that personal view, I suspect your tirade would not have wavered one iota. Having served this country in both the military and another capacity I am still to this day not allowed to talk much about (hint: I worked for a "Three Letter Agency" and it wasn't a pencil pushing one) I am deeply concerned at how we have so many individuals in this country who may be working at causes inimical to our national security, free to work whatever mischief they may. That is my primary concern. As to the vehemence of your riposte, I can only conclude I've struck a nerve. Whatever is the cause of the symptom of your vitriol, it lies between your ears and behind your eyes, and nowhere else.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:14:21 AM EST
    No Name: we admitted known war criminals into not only our society, but the highest levels of our intelligence apparatus. Well, if I may rejoinder... In the late '40's, Stalin was busy rounding up any German Technician that he may get his paws into. Most of them ended enslaved in Siberia developing what we may now call WMD's (Ballistic Missiles, Nuclear Technology, etc.). To this threat, the West gave refuge to any Ex Nazi Scientist we could find. What were we supposed to do against this, let the communists take them all for themselves? Just as we are now in a struggle against Militant Jihadists, we were then in a struggle with 4th Internationalists.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:16:37 AM EST
    That's all you ever say... "Bush lied"
    He did lie. The whole world knows it, with the exception of willfully blind Bush supporters of course. Pig...technically then, Iraq is not a war at all. At least I don't remember Congress saying "We declare war on Iraq". My understanding is Congress gave the pres. authority to pre-empitively attack Iraq due to supposed WMD's, which it turns out don't exist. Congress deserves a lot of blame for accepting the lies, and not doing their job to verify the validity of the presidents claims. I think we are splitting hairs. Ina nutshell, Bush and his cabinet wanted this war on Sept. 12th 2001, and lied to get the rest of us to go along.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:22:59 AM EST
    nemo, my derision stems from the fact that I think it's absurd to argue it took a "germ" from Nazi scientists to make our current government torture detainees. You have NO evidence of this! Not even in Dr. Strangelove! Governments have tortured people from time immemorial, and that's why I think your theory deserves derision. If I were in charge of the US government a half century ago, *I* wouldn't have admitted Nazis - and our immigration laws now contain unique provisions allowing the stripping of US Citizenship of anyone who supported the Nazis. That said, do you really think we'd be better off if Von Braun ended up assisting the Soviets? Because I live and work in NYC, I am extremely concerned about terror attacks, but I don't believe our government is doing enough to protect us by doing things like searching containers, etc. Our government isn't just going to round up 10-12 million people, and the people we should really be worrying about would go underground so we can't find them if such a crackdown were actually instituted. Very often, these tough talking solutions that sound good on sound bytes don't work, and despite sharply increased penalties and enforcement since 1996, we're no better off. And don't pretend you didn't make it personal in the first instance - you've laid out a life history and challenged me to provide mine.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:31:10 AM EST
    He [Bush] did lie [about Iraq/WMD's/etc./etc./etc.]. I think it was Einstein who said something along the lines of insanity being when you do the same thing over and over and get the same result over and over, yet continue to do that same thing over and over because you believe that at some point you will get a different result. Of course he said it a lot more eloquantly than I. kdog, do you really want to fight this battle again?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#61)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:57:07 AM EST
    “Pig...technically then, Iraq is not a war at all. At least I don't remember Congress saying "We declare war on Iraq".” There is the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq . It is fairly clear… “(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION. -- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.” “Congress deserves a lot of blame for accepting the lies, and not doing their job to verify the validity of the presidents claims.” The senate intelligence committee receives the same intelligence the president does. There have been no documented lies, contrary to what folks around here would have you believe. If anyone was able to show evidence that implicated the president knowingly passed bogus information to the senate intelligence committee or otherwise conspired with the FBI, CIA, NSA, or others to pass bogus intelligence to the senate he would face a criminal indictment. It is fair to say that the executives latched onto a few pieces of intelligence that were particularly damning and repeated them ad nauseam. As it turned out these bits of intelligence were wrong or misconstrued; i.e. aluminum tubes usually used for uranium enrichment were actually used to build missiles (missiles that were in violation of UNSC resolutions), attempts to buy yellowcake uranium that were unverifiable or bogus, meetings between Iraqi intelligence and al Qaida operatives, and so forth. This is how gems like this made it into the Use of Force Act… “Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;” Well, I guess they are there now.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#62)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 10:57:44 AM EST
    kpuppy When will you understand that we are in a War on Terror. This talk that Afganistan was a war, and Irak was a war, is very disingenous. Actions in these two countries are nothing but two campaigns in the same war - The Global War on Terror. On Sept 20th '01 our President addressed Congress. Surely you remember him saying: "Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated... Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime." Five weeks latter, on Oct 27th he stated: "If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents, they have become outlaws and murderers, themselves." Irak clearly sided with our enemies, as such actions in Irak are an integral part on the War on Terror. It is not a different war altogether, it is just another campaigh. Keep 'em straight will you.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:12:36 AM EST
    kdog, do you really want to fight this battle again?
    Good point. I don't see me ever changing my mind on this, I guess others who feel differently won't either. The proverbial dead horse has been beaten to death. In my book, our whole gov't lied to us about Iraq...Bush, Congress...the whole rotten lot.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#64)
    by glanton on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:19:22 AM EST
    An homage to Bill O'Reilly: "Most Ridiculous Item of the Day": The idea of Doctor Ace posting something over anyone's head who is not in a coma. Someone, please find me a post by Doctor Ace where a point of any kind is made in a thoughtful way. Pretty please.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:28:20 AM EST
    It is fair to say that the executives latched onto a few pieces of intelligence that were particularly damning and repeated them ad nauseam. As it turned out these bits of intelligence were wrong or misconstrued
    Semantics aside, I consider this lying. Boq...You shovel that same old tripe so well, you should be Bush's speechwriter. I don't believe in wars on tactics (terrorism), anymore than I believe in wars on inanimate objects (drugs). Killing 100,000 Iraqis (majority just regular people! Like you and me even! Never harmed a hair on an American's head!) has not made us any less of a terrorist target, in fact I think it has increased the odds of us being attacked again. I need to listen to anon's advice, this battle is getting old. I think I'll go bang my head against the wall instead.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#66)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:40:43 AM EST
    Boq, That's BS. There is only a contrived WOT. If the previous admin. treated AQ as a DOJ issue, they were sure a hell of a lot better at it with the relativley rapid capture of the First WTC bombers, their subsequent conviction and incarceration, all within a very short time. Last time I checked, UBL is STILL OUT THERE. Nice work boys. How much have we spent on Fatherland Security and he's STILL OUT THERE. Ridge was a joke, as are his bosses. Your people haven't caught S**t! Of course I'm sure you will still blame previous preznits for WTC II, even though the warning count pre 9/11 is apparently now up to 52 warnings to the FAA and Bush. By the way, how many terror convictions does the Bushco have under their belts? ZERO. ZILCH. You guys are so pathetic. The war in Iraq was contrived form the start. The Dems are not off the hook in my book (though to regressives we're all the same). I could care less who believed it and who didn't. The world spoke in March of 2003 to say that War was not the solution and Bush ignored them. He preemptively invaded a sovereign nation that was NO threat to us or their neighbors (remember we ALLOWED SH to invade Kuwait so who is the real threat?). You don't get a mulligan because your intel was wrong. You still broke international law. It still means you're a criminal. Pig, I know a lie when I hear one. I had a mother too. You can obfuscate and twist the "truth" all you want to fit your blind patriotism. Bush is a lying killer. He's a terrorist of global proportions and he has the weapons to back his faux bravado. He's a coward who disobeyed a direct order to report for duty. And on and on and on... Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. More to come. The left has been too quiet on this site. Time to light some fires. By the by, N. Korea says they now a have a bomb. Nice work George. Not like '93 is it coward? What are we gonna DO about it? Things were pretty good (contained) til the old Axis of evil speech. Boy that was a real barn burner. Now the whole f***ing world is on the brink. Nic work.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#67)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:43:41 AM EST
    Better snap out of it, Glanton. Looks like another one got by ya... "It is readily apparent that the Bush administration, as feeble minded as they are, are miles ahead of you in their grasp of diplomatic reality." Oh, irony, Che!

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#68)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 11:53:51 AM EST
    Chechito: If the previous admin. treated AQ as a DOJ issue, they were sure a hell of a lot better It would be funny, whether it would not be a drop dead subject. It is precisely because we chose to treat WTCI as a criminal offense, and not as an act of war that we are where we are. We blindly chose to treat the blind crazy mulah as a common criminal, and not as the war saboteur that he trully is. and: N. Korea says they now a have a bomb. Nice work George... Are you serious? It is precisely due to the fact that Ms Halfbright and her ilk gave the North Koreans Nuclear Fuel and Nuclear Technology that we are where we are. Surely you jest.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:28:44 PM EST
    ras - Your sycophantic,errand-boy parroting of every jot and tittle of every neo-con talking point(generally a week or two after most of us have heard or read it elsewhere),is a pretty pathetic example of the fruits of democracy,if democracy has anything to do with engendering free,creative thought and expression. You sound less like someone interested in the true meaning of freedom,and more like some lemming-like peon groveling for some of the crumbs from the masters well stocked table.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#70)
    by ras on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:42:23 PM EST
    Jondee, Luv you too, bro. Hope you and your loved ones are all well. Best. xxx ooo

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#71)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 12:53:59 PM EST
    Comrade Che- “You can obfuscate and twist the "truth" all you want to fit your blind patriotism.” I was and am against any military action in Iraq. Further, I’m not some vitriolic partisan stooge. I am able, apparently uniquely able given the crap I am reading here, to place blame where blame should lay; congress before executives. It is your blind partisanship that forces you into bizarre contortions of logic to rally blame to politicians you hate, i.e. “I know a lie when I hear one. I had a mother too.” I mean really, what the fu** are saying here? Truly bizarre. I challenge you to point to anything in the above posts that twists or otherwise misrepresents the truth. Does congress indeed have the war powers, did congress indeed pass the use of force act, did congress indeed have the same shi**y intelligence that the president had, do you have any evidence at all that the executives conspired to pass, or otherwise were responsible for, the bad intelligence provided to congress? Anything at all other than “I know a lie when I hear one”; anything other than your intuition? Oh, and patriotism? I support this country’s interests in as much as they are my interests, no further; I love this country in as much as it serves to protect my liberty, no further. Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#72)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 01:33:44 PM EST
    Anon at 12:53, The nuclear fuel you refer to was part of the Agreed Framework of `93/'94. This fuel is for LIGHTWATER reactors and cannot be processed into bomb grade material. Please read before you write. Every atom of that fuel was to be monitored into and out of NK (and Iran if we had the brains) by the IAEA. In return for their not building the bomb, they were to be supplied with two lightwater reactors, which were delayed by the overblown trivial violations of the Agreed Framework by BOTH sides. So instead of living up to our part of the bargain and negotiating out the MINOR violations, Chimpy goes out and pours gas on the embers, cuts off their only other source of electricity (oil) and now we have what you read about in the papers today. Pig, I thought (at least from conventional wingnut wisdom [sic]) that it was the CIA that screwed screwed us into war. Get your damage control straight

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#73)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:01:49 PM EST
    Comrade- “I thought (at least from conventional wingnut wisdom [sic]) that it was the CIA that screwed screwed us into war.” In the previous post I had included the intelligence services as the first to bear blame, then revised it. This kind of intelligence by its very nature should be considered error prone. The pentagon and trade center 1 and 2 should have stood, or rather not, as a stark reminder to our legislators that US intelligence is far from perfect. "Get your damage control straight" More of the same?

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:10:07 PM EST
    pigwiggle writes - "Oh, and patriotism? I support this country’s interests in as much as they are my interests, no further" That is a very sad statement, and I confess that it makes me sad. How can you exist in a world in which only your interests are important? It must be a very lonely place.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#75)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:21:21 PM EST
    This kind of intelligence by its very nature should be considered error prone. Where were you in Jan 2003? You just validated my entire arguement.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#76)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:23:34 PM EST
    Jim, I was as surprised as you were by that statement. Maybe Pigwiggle can clarify that stance.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:29:50 PM EST
    How you can you support a world-view that holds that only YOUR countries "interests"(and we should have a thread devoted to disentangeling the meaning of that phrase)- are important. The aforementioned world-view ends in fallout.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:33:26 PM EST
    Che, you would trust the likes of Kim Jong Il and the ayatollahs and you call GWB "Chimpy"? You poor witless sheep among wolves.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#79)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 02:44:22 PM EST
    Ace, Go and play. This is adult time.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#80)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:18:49 PM EST
    “How can you exist in a world in which only your interests are important? It must be a very lonely place.” My interests often coincide with those of others. For whatever reason I feel compelled to be charitable, to support and love my family, friends, and wife, to be kind to strangers, to apologize for my bad behavior, etc. Like most everyone else I am subject to my conscience. Anyone who tells you they are altruistic or selfless is lying; folks do what makes them feel good about themselves. Government exists only to secure liberty and justice, which are exclusively in my interest. Why should I feel compelled to love or otherwise favor the interests of a government that has failed this obligation? Hence, “I support this country’s interests in as much as they are my interests, no further; I love this country in as much as it serves to protect my liberty, no further.”

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#81)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 03:57:34 PM EST
    PJB, Let me get this straight: you would not have admitted Nazis. Yet you ask if it would have been worse if we hadn’t admitted von Braun – who as I stated, was a Nazi Party member in good standing, or he would have never been allowed to get within a hundred miles of Peenemunde. The implication of your question would seem to negate your passionate denial of passage to those same Nazis. With regards to Operation Paperclip, which brought those same concentration camp guards and officers (who had previously been employed starving, torturing, shooting, gassing and roasting Jews, gypsies, gays, etc.) illegally into the US for intelligence purposes, I’ll provide you with a search string that should prove very interesting. Google search string for Gehlen Org I can’t make it any easier for you. Take note of the names that keep cropping up time and again…all connected with the intelligence organs of this country, as well as highly placed political operatives. Since there appears to be a sentiment of moral relativism present amongst some commentators, who think it was permissible due to the exigencies of the then-nascent Cold War to import concentration camp torturers and murderers, I will address it in terms they may be able to understand: They suckered us with bad intel. Rather like what Iranian double agent Chalabi did with us prior to our invasion of Iraq. I suggest that you consider that in the long run, the importation of the Gehlen Org did not improve American intelligence operations, but actually caused them to suffer terrible losses of agents due to the compromising of those Gehlen Org personnel who revealed the identities of agents sent behind the Iron Curtain to the Soviets. Now, move forward from the late 1940’s through the Cold War up to today. You see the slow, steady adoption of the kinds of techniques employed by our intel agencies used by those same literally jackbooted thugs showing up in places like Viet Nam with the SOG. Hence my ‘germ’ theory’ you make light of. I am quite sure the Army personnel at Abu Ghraib had the same instruction in the Laws of War and the Geneva Convention that I did. I had to sign a document that said I had had that instruction and understood it, when I went through Army Basic in 1982. Given what I have laid out here, and the fact that the Army Reservist turnkeys at Abu Ghraib were offering the Nuremberg Defense of “I was only following orders” and the presence of CIA personnel giving those orders, you have to wonder: where did they learn this? And from whom? I repeat my earlier statement that it is paramount that we be careful as to who we let into this country, as they may someday cause us grief. As some demonstrably have...

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 04:00:33 PM EST
    Sorry for the lapse in identifying; if not plain, the above comment was mine.

    Re: Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 11, 2005 at 05:28:02 AM EST
    Kdog.... He did lie. --- Congress deserves a lot of blame for accepting the lies, and not doing their job to verify the validity of the presidents claims That's just it... they did verify it, along with most of the world's intelligence community. Going with the best info you have is not lying... GW didn't make this up, as much as you'd like to believe that,....too bad you can't get that straight

    Judge Orders Islamic Fundraiser Deported | 83 comments (83 topical)