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Sunday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 01:04:11 PM EST
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Things to read today: Hunter S. Thompson’s Letters to His Enemies in the Atlantic.

Question: Will anyone tell Michael Bloomberg the truth -- that the last thing America wants is another billionaire from New York in the White House? Wasn't he always a Republican or Independent? If he had any guts, he'd challenge Trump for the Republican nomination, not try and buy the Democratic nomination.

Time for a new open thread. All topics welcome.

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    Sunday Open Thread | 202 comments (202 topical)
    A Michael Bloomberg (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by KeysDan on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 02:42:00 PM EST
    primary challenge is likely to split the Steyer vote, but pick up some of those disappointed Howard Schultz voters.

    The billionaires  appear rattled by the prospects of higher taxes with a Warren presidency. Bloomberg may be the designated driver for the financially overindulged. Bill Gates was carping about his having to pay $100 billion in taxes because of Warren's plans.  But Senator Warren has devised a handy calculator so as to put a sharper point on it.   Seems Gates might expect a tax bill of around $5 billion, less than his annual investment income.

    And, as Paul Krugman has claimed, the high rollers feelings are hurt--- they already do so much and get so little respect. It is enough for them to go with Trump, or take steps as sure as actually pulling the lever for him.

    Less than his investment income (none / 0) (#3)
    by jmacWA on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 03:39:59 PM EST
    OK... so the guy pays 5-6 billion in taxes and is still richer than he was at the end of the previous year.

    Talk about snowflakes

    Parent

    Remembering the worst of Michael Bloomburg (none / 0) (#45)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:40:37 PM EST
    From Simple Justice. Stop and frisk.

    Parent
    Here is some Billionaire math: (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by leap on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 03:39:20 PM EST
    $1,000,000,000 ➗ $5,000 ➗ 365.25 = 547.6 years. It would take 547.6 YEARS to earn $1 billion making $5,000 a day.

    fü¢k Bill Gates and all the other billionaires of the world. They didn't "earn" that amount of money. They stole it by not paying people enough, by cheating governments/citizens, robbing, lying, sucking-up, quid-pro-quo'ing, "donating," playing the market. He can afford to pay back 100 billion bucks. He'd still have, what, 30 billion left over? How much does a person need to live? (See the above math again.)

    They (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by FlJoe on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 08:15:27 AM EST
    can always apply for welfare
    The Rybovich superyacht marina lies on the West Palm Beach, Florida, waterfront, a short drive north from Mar-a-Lago. Superyachts, floating mansions that can stretch more than 300 feet and cost over $100 million, are serviced at the marina, and their owners enjoy Rybovich's luxury resort amenities. Its Instagram account offers a glimpse into the rarefied world of the global 0.1% -- as one post puts it, "What's better than owning a yacht, owning a yacht with a helicopter of course!"

    Rybovich owner Wayne Huizenga Jr., son of the Waste Management and Blockbuster video billionaire Wayne Huizenga Sr., has long planned to build luxury apartment towers on the site, part of a development dubbed Marina Village.

    Those planned towers, and the superyacht marina itself, are now in an area designated as an opportunity zone under President Donald Trump's 2017 tax code overhaul, qualifying them for a tax break program that is supposed to help the poor.

    if things get tight.

    Parent
    And in Gates' case (none / 0) (#4)
    by jmacWA on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 03:41:33 PM EST
    where would he be if IBM hadn't picked MS-Dos for the PC OS

    Parent
    I think a lot of these people (none / 0) (#5)
    by jondee on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 05:12:15 PM EST
    identify with their fortunes and property the way the pharoahs and emperors of ancient times did.

    It's an extension of their self-perceived unprecedented uniqueness and marvelousness. Their egos, in other words

    Maybe Gates plans on being buried inside a giant burial mound with a chariots, horses, and a terra cotta army.

    Parent

    You have to wonder (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:37:07 AM EST
    If Nikki Haley really thought the headline from her confirming the unconfirmed story that Trumps cabinet was seriously considering the 25th amendment would be that she did not cooperate.

    She doesnt strike me as a stupid person.  That would be stupid.

    I think Pence should have mother watch his back.  Nikki is coming for his job.

    On another subject, you also have to love Trump telling republicans they are not "allowed" to say what he did was wrong but not impeachable.  They have to say it was not wrong.  

    Haley (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:40:40 AM EST
    is way overrated. I don't know what that is but it is.

    Parent
    Perfect (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:47:42 AM EST

    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    ·
    22h
    The call to the Ukrainian President was PERFECT. Read the Transcript! There was NOTHING said that was in any way wrong. Republicans, don't be led into the fools trap of saying it was not perfect, but is not impeachable. No, it is much stronger than that. NOTHING WAS DONE WRONG!



    Parent
    Haley (none / 0) (#42)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:15:16 PM EST
    wants to have it both ways:  She got out of the Trump dumpster fire before getting burned, but still wants his support and that of his supporters....Maybe smart play.

    Parent
    Getting Trump's and (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 02:48:35 PM EST
    the deplorable's support will get her burned.  She seems singed already. But, yes, Mother's little helper had better watch out.

    Parent
    I want the kneepad (none / 0) (#70)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 06:09:49 PM EST
    franchise at the corner of PA Ave and 17th St NW.

    Parent
    Happy Birthday KeysDan, (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by fishcamp on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 05:55:43 AM EST
    with many more to follow.

    Thanks for (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by KeysDan on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:42:39 AM EST
    the good wishes.  As Birthday Boy, I have put in my request for homemade pumpkin pie--- a request to be honored with the caveat of it coming equipped with but one birthday candle, as a fire safety measure.

    Parent
    Happy Birthday (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 06:01:02 AM EST
    This year I have a recipe for salted caramel pumpkin pie that I think I will try.

    Parent
    Bribery (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 09:45:51 PM EST
    as an Article of Impeachment.

    Perfect.  

    It fits the evidence perfectly.  It perfectly encapsulates the seedy, cheesy, low-brow corruption.

    Well, thank goodness (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Zorba on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 02:02:21 PM EST
    Bevins conceded in Kentucky.

    The tax returns. (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:18:19 PM EST
    This is the big story not being covered. Why is orange jesus fighting so hard to them secret? I believe the tax returns will prove once and for akk, the charlatan that he is. And that is orange jesus' biggest fear.

    Interesting bit (none / 0) (#143)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:22:11 PM EST

    Here's why Trump's appeal to the Supreme Court to keep his tax returns secret could back him into a corner



    Parent

    There definitely (none / 0) (#145)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:28:42 PM EST
    is something in those tax returns. Can you imagine the peals of laughter if it's even nothing but he has negative net worth? His whole persona with the deplorables is a successful business man. I'd like to see them twist themselves in pretzels over that.

    Parent
    Mere minutes after ... (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:58:58 PM EST
    ... the right-wing members of the Venice (Italy) city council rejected amendments to the 2020 budget that were proposed by the moderate-left Democratic party to fight the climate crisis, the council's offices along the Grand Canal were flooded by rising waters. 70% of the lagoon-ringed city has been inundated by the worst flooding in over 50 years.

    the Gates Interview (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Nov 10, 2019 at 11:05:56 PM EST
    Here is the Gates interview and he wasn't objecting to even $100 million more in taxes but when he ran Warren's numbers, if he was going to give away tens of billions of his money, he ought to at least be able to have his foundation pick the beneficiaries.

    "I've paid more than $10 billion in taxes. I've paid more than anyone in taxes," he told financial journalist Andrew Ross Sorkin, earning some laughs from the crowd. "But I'm glad to have. If I'd had to have paid $20 billion, it's fine. But when you say I should pay $100 billion, OK, then I'm starting to do a little math about what I have left over. Sorry. I'm just kidding."

    And here is some analysis from Slate saying he's right about the numbers, because it's not just the wealth tax but some other kind of taxes too.

    I thought his larger point was if he's going to give that money away, he wants to have his foundation pick the charitable recipient, not leave it to the government, but I might have gotten that from a different Gates interview.

    Anyway, I'm not comfortable with stripping people of their fortunes -- it gets too close to robbing Peter to pay Paul. If you want out of capitalism, there are places you can go to avoid it -- although I doubt anyone here would want to go to Cuba right now.

    Warren and Sanders are striking a cord with  millenials -- the group of adults with the least amount of experience at anything, if only because of how young they are.

    We should avoid extremes at either end, other than being headline grabbers, they are of little use.

    Giving his money away (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jmacWA on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 05:05:34 AM EST
    Like the Kochs?He should get to chose where it goes.  That doesn't really fly with me.  The math showed that if he had paid Warren's tax he would still have had more money after paying the taxes then he had at the beginning of the tax year.  That's not stripping him of his money, that's just trying to even things out a bit.

    Parent
    Hearing Bill Gates defend his fortune, ... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 01:26:44 PM EST
    ... I'm reminded of Jack Nicholson's private detective Jake Gittes confronting the odious L.A. oligarch Noah Cross (John Huston) over his crimes in the climactic scenes of Roman Polanski's "Chinatown," when the conversation turns for the moment to Cross's obvious wealth:

    Gittes: "How much are you worth?"
    Cross: "I've no idea. How much do you want?"
    Gittes: "I just want to know what you're worth. Over ten million?"
    Cross: "Oh my, yes!"
    Gittes: "Why are you doing it? How much better can you eat? What can you buy that you can't already afford?"
    Cross: "The future, Mr. Gits - the future!"

    The next question for us should be -- whose future? I mean, what sort of country are we becoming, when the wealthiest 20% of Americans own and control 86% of the country's financial assets and net worth, while the least wealthiest 80% of Americans, who own and control only 14% of the same, account for nearly 40% of all local, state and tax revenues collected in the United States?

    Because to put it bluntly, our terribly regressive tax policies, which are most heavily impacting the middle, working and poorer classes of U.S. society, are what's driving the ever-increasing disparity of wealth and net earnings between the wealthy and everyone else.

    So, kudos to Sen. Warren for showing her political courage and mettle by forthrightly confronting the so-called "elephant in the room" -- no pun intended -- and calling it out publicly for what it is, while every other candidates dances gingerly around the very same issue for fear of annoying their wealthy donors. That's the difference between a warrior and a courtier.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Agreed. (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 02:36:34 PM EST
    I find it unproductive when generations are pitted against one another, not only because of more and unnecessary divisiveness, but also, because it generalizes--overlooking differences between and among groups. And, too, neglecting, history as well as differing situations and circumstances.

     I am sure Depression era parents and their children would like to get their oars in the discussion waters--if you think you have it bad, do I have a story to tell you. And, of course, we should be used to distractions and deflections. Taxes are an anathema of the rich.

    The top marginal tax rate on personal income when Bill Gates founded Microsoft in 1975 was 70 percent, and other tax rates (capital gains and corporate) were much higher than at present. None of this dissuaded Gates from launching his business nor getting investors.

    Now, Gates suggests that an increase in billionaire's taxes will result in less economic growth. And, apparently, he would prefer to give any increases proposed through his Foundation, for causes he feels are worthy.

     Philanthropy is not the same as taxation to run the government. We will be, for example, borrowing more than $1 trillion this fiscal year to meet obligations, and still more for infrastructure, education, and support of the present safety nets, in the unlikely event that Republicans decide such spending is good and will not just help--Those People.

    .  Moreover, it would not make much governmental sense if everyone could, after some base, pick and chose what they believe are worthy earmarks for their taxes. We are a nation, there is the common good after all.

    In 1961, those with the highest incomes paid an average of 51 percent of their income in federal, state and local taxes.  In 201l (the last reporting year) it was about 33 percent.

    It is not at all clear, from evidence, that tax plans such as Senator Warren's would significantly discourage innovation or investment. Education and research are probably most important factors in the economic scheme for growth and development. Indeed, Trump's tax cuts pretty much failed in these goals, with corporate buy-backs outpacing investments and innovations.

    What is known is that innovators tend to come from higher income families, and receive quality educations--as was the case with Bill Gates.

    In my view, public investment funded by taxation, would be expected to give more young people the leg up that Gates had. Senator Warren's plans seem to me to be anything but stripping billionaires of the billions. Senator Warren has the makings of an FDR for our and future time.

    They are the kind of plans that will, in the long run, strengthen America and Americans, including Bill Gates, Leon Cooperman, and Jamie Dimon (who, apparently, is still smarting from questions being asked of him by Rep. Katie Porter).

    Parent

    How Much Will Closing Tax Loopholes Bring In? (none / 0) (#59)
    by RickyJim on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 03:50:11 PM EST
    "There's no need for a wealth tax, it won't work," Cooperman told me. He said that there are "plenty of taxes" out there already and that if you want to tax the wealthy more, closing loopholes and changing tax rates is the way to do it.
    Link

    In a way, I agree with Cooperman.  Amazon as a whole, can deliver more than just Bezos.  What's the loophole that enables it to avoid taxes completely?  Real estate investors are another rich source of income who don't pay there fair share.  Hedge fund managers, taking advantage of "carried interest", are another.

    Parent

    It is quite reasonable (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 04:51:07 PM EST
    to debate how best to raise the money needed for running the US government.  The proposal by Senator Warren for a new federal tax on wealth is an innovation that merits thoughtful consideration. But, a needed component of the solution is to collect more from those Americans who have the most and can afford to contribute more.

    Leon Cooperman's critique, declaring that Senator Warren was "wrecking the American Dream" was neither constructive nor thoughtful. Hyperpole and "jokes" are considered good enough.

    Cooperman and his billionaire friends' solution is to find a president who is a billionaire, who is not Trump, and is up for running. And, will keep that American Dream going for them.

     It is reported that Bezos was among those who have been urging Bloomberg to cut ahead in line and join the primary candidates. The idea of a wealth tax seems to be sending some of these billionaires to the ledge.

    It may escape some, that Americans, even rich ones (the Warren tax proposal kicks in only after $50 million) already endure a wealth tax--the  tax on their likely greatest asset, real estate.  And, the tax is computed on the value of the property which in most cases in not completely owned by the tax payer (the mortgage lender/bank may "own" the bulk of it, but the tax payer is responsible for it all).

    Parent

    Is Determining Wealth That Easy? (none / 0) (#71)
    by RickyJim on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 06:20:51 PM EST
    Does the government ask Forbes for the numbers?  I don't think Warren has given us the details. The super rich have so many more ways to hide their assets than we do.  I also think that instead of tantrums, billionaires should give us their detailed counter proposals.  

    Parent
    As someone who has represented folks (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Peter G on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 08:13:39 PM EST
    who sought to evade taxes, as well as others who got caught committing federal crimes of other types, I can say that tax compliance is unusually responsive to enforcement ... unlike drug dealing, for example. I do not believe that predicting evasion is a good argument against a change in tax policy. The R's have cut the IRS enforcement budget relentlessly in the last 15 years or so. It is part of their kleptocracy plan. The probability of being audited these days is way, way down in all income brackets, most especially the upper brackets. A relatively modest investment in building the IRS back up (both civil auditors and criminal investigators) would have a significant effect on compliance with any new program, in my experience-based opinion.

    Parent
    Senator Warren (none / 0) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 07:51:25 PM EST
    has, in her proposal, indicated that the annual federal tax would be on a broad measure of individual wealth, including real property, personal property, and financial assets.  The taxes are imposed on net wealth---assets less debt.

    The administration would be complex, but workable. Like income tax fraud, wealth tax would be subject to fine or more.

    Determining the wealth would not be dissimilar to determining assets for purposes of estate taxes. Valuation of assets and appreciation have been the subject of study by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy, which the Warren plan appears to use.

    As a proposal by a candidate in a primary, Warren's plan is quite detailed. Yes, hiding assets, or converting them to exempted categories were the bane of the few European countries that attempted a wealth tax.  But, an income tax in Europe encountered avoidance issues as well, resulting in reliance on the regressive VAT taxes.

    Yes, the billionaires are long on talk, even crude talk, but short on details for any tax increases.  Probably, because they prefer to not have any tax increases.  The old saws of "clean out waste" or eliminate "tax loopholes" is almost as politically fraught as a wealth tax--your loophole is my incentive; my innovation is your loophole. Not so easy.

    Parent

    Administration would be complex. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 08:20:32 AM EST
    Let's keep in mind that her billionaire's tax starts at $50 million.  When the income tax was instituted at the beginning of the last century it only applied to about the top 3%.  When this tax brings in less than forecast (as in every other country) the raising of rates and the lowering of thresholds won't be far behind.

    Complex = costly.

    Just doing an inventory of all my personal property would be a daunting task, and I'm not even a millionaire. Three bottles of Gatorade in the trunk of my car, my work gloves, etc., etc, unless you list it all and value it in agreement with an auditor you are a presumptive tax cheat. Doing those audits will be very costly and contentious. What is the value of that painting bought years ago from an unknown artist?

    On top of this she wants to tax unrealized capital gains. Here you thought those regulated utility stock you bought would provide retirement income. As inflation pushes up the price you will need to sell of some to pay the tax bill. Even more if there is a financial transaction tax.  

    Parent

    No, complex does not equal "costly." (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 01:00:11 PM EST
    "Failure to act is often the biggest failure of all. Initiative is the ability to act. Simple as that. If you have prepared thoroughly in all ways, you must then summon the wherewithal to take the initiative. Failure happens. None of us is perfect, but you must train yourself not to fear failure."
    - John Wooden (1910-2010), UCLA men's basketball coach

    The ever-increasing disparity between the wealthy and everyone else is a serious matter that holds extraordinary potential to undermine our country's entire socio-economic structure. In many instances such as this one, it's ultimately far more costly to NOT do something about an obvious problem.

    One's conscious failure to address an issue because one perceives it to be too difficult and / or "complex" an undertaking is a form of indolence or cowardice that's often the hallmark of underachievement.

    At best, such inaction can leave you at the mercy of chance, unable to influence the course of events. Or worse, it can render you subject to the machinations of those who harbor no such inhibitions about taking the initiative, particularly in pursuit of their personal agendas, which of course may or may not necessarily align with your own best interests.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Millennials are turning 40 (none / 0) (#8)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 07:40:00 AM EST
    My sisters are both millennials with two kids, both parents working fulltime, and right in the thick of the $hit.

    We're not young and inexperienced, we're angry because of our experiences.

    No one is stripping Gates of his wealth.  Even with the wealth tax in place his fortune would continue to grow if he invested it in the stock market.

    But Ok Boomer...

    Parent

    Just my 2 cents (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 08:08:18 AM EST
    but a lot of this got started in 2016 with millennials and Bernie who was offering so much free stuff.

    Parent
    Since when does (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 08:32:01 AM EST
    "Paying for things with taxes" mean "free stuff".  Is social security "free"?  What about food stamps?  Or public elementary and highschools?  How about the roads you drive on?

    Nothing is free.  Not even tax payer funded higher education.

    Parent

    That's not (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:35:28 AM EST
    what Bernie was saying though. He was saying that everybody was gonna get free college and millionaires and billionaires were gonna pay for it.

    Parent
    That's not free (none / 0) (#64)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 04:55:53 PM EST
    Taxes don't get itemized.  It's true that we can pay for many more things by raising just the taxes on the wealthy.  That doesn't make them free.

    Free is when you print the money.  Which has been going on for a lot longer than the 2016 election.

    Parent

    Free to (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 05:57:03 PM EST
    whom? is the question.  No, it is not free overall because someone will pay for it in the end.

    For the recipients of the benefit; however, it is free in that they do not personally and directly pay for it.  

    Parent

    Just like (none / 0) (#80)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 10:35:00 PM EST
    All public schools.

    Parent
    Pulbic schools are (none / 0) (#117)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 01:20:23 PM EST
    paid for by property taxes, lots of property taxes.....

    So, free college will also require taxes.

    Parent

    Property taxes paid (none / 0) (#118)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 01:20:53 PM EST
    by the middle class.

    Parent
    Speaking of lack of experience (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 07:48:18 AM EST
    Seems like a lot of older people have a lack of experience with crushing student loan debt.  Or a lack of experience with crushing childcare costs.  Or a lack of experience with crushing housing costs.  Or a lack of experience with crushing medical costs.  Or a lack of experience with all four of those hitting you at the same time while the people who created that mess tell you to stop whining because when they were your age they could get all of those things from a single income union job which no longer exists.

    Parent
    Sorry. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 10:46:35 AM EST
    But if there is anyone with experience of crushing medical costs, it's "older people."

    And my cranky old guy response to crushing child care, housing and student loan costs, stop having more kids than you can afford. There are people in my neighborhood, struggling financially, but they keep cranking out children. I work with a guy who as 8 kids. Enough already.


    Parent

    We already stopped having kids relative to (none / 0) (#21)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:21:12 AM EST
    Previous generations.  Which is why no one will be around to pay for our social security.

    But hey, cr@ppy anecdotes are always there when statistics can't back you up.

    Parent

    I would (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 08:11:30 AM EST
    say if both worked they have experience with those high childcare expenses. I sure did. And yes, we had the experience of not being able to afford a house. And yes, we had experience with crushing medical bills because when my oldest son was born in 1993 we had no money. Every day brought a new bill I had to pay. It would depend on what kind of insurance the person had back then as to how much they understand medical expenses. The only thing my generation definitely does not understand is the cost of college because most of us could work our way through college then. College didn't cost as much as buying a house back then.

    Parent
    All of those things (none / 0) (#12)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 08:29:40 AM EST
    As crushing as they were have gotten more expensive relative to inflation.

    That doesn't mean it wasn't hard.  But it is even harder now.

    Parent

    11.25% mortgage rates (none / 0) (#18)
    by jmacWA on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:14:29 AM EST
    Talk to me when you are paying this on your residence... Bought my first house in 76, paid my lowest mortgage rate of 9.25... 1981 saw 11.25%  was relieved to get 10.25 in 86.  The rates you are seeing now are in the area of what the boomers parents paid... One thing boomers did get screwed on was mortgage rates, which is generally the biggest debt one incurs.

    Parent
    Talk to me (none / 0) (#20)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:18:56 AM EST
    When you've done the math on how much houses cost today relative to inflation, over a 30 year period, including that interest rate.

    I'm not saying it was easy, I'm saying there's a lot of willfull blindness about just how bad the situation is today.  Of course if you already have equity from another home it isn't so bad.

    And as for the person below you talking about welfare moms with 8 kids I guess they missed the memo on plummeting birth rates.

    Parent

    Yep. We waited years for our first house (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Towanda on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 11:33:52 AM EST
    and that mortgage was 11.75 percent.  Both of us had to work to save for that house and then to pay that rate.

    And then came the children -- and child care before the child care credit.  Child care chewed up most of my take-home pay, but I kept working because taking years out of my career would have meant never getting back where I had worked and fought so hard to be . . . before any workplace protections. I had tolerated a lot of harassment and gender discrimination in pay and promotions.

    And before the family leave law, I also had to fight like h@ll for the first maternity leaves at my campus -- unpaid, of course.

    And yes, college did not cost as much then. But I still had to work fulltime while I was a fulltime student, and take oiut student loans, and at a comparative "bargain," a state school.

    The conversation about us boomers -- I was bornin the peak year of the baby boom -- is filled with misinformation.

    Parent

    He said (none / 0) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:32:16 AM EST
    nothing about welfare moms. My personal experience is that it is mainly people who don't believe in birth control that have 8 kids like evangelicals, Mormons and Hispanic Catholics.

    Parent
    No welfare moms mentioned. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:05:35 PM EST
    I specifically said "I work with a guy." That means he has a job.


    Parent
    Got (none / 0) (#14)
    by FlJoe on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 09:06:09 AM EST
    to love this
    Donald Trump Jr., accompanied by his omnipresent girlfriend Kimberly Guilfoyle, was heckled out of his book event at the University of California's Los Angeles campus Sunday as his own supporters grew enraged that he wouldn't take questions.
    Got to see the new Netflix documentary on the LA (none / 0) (#15)
    by McBain on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 10:40:57 AM EST
    music scene of the mid 1960s.... Echo In The Canyon.  Had some good interviews with musicians involved and others inspired....  David Crosby, Jackson Browne, Roger McGuin, Tom Petty, Jacob Dylan.

    Lots of praise for the Byrds as a group bridging folk and pop.

    In addition to the tremendous talent involved in that era, I think changing technology had a lot to do with making that music special.    

    I watched it last week. (none / 0) (#17)
    by RCBadger on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 10:54:40 AM EST
    Totally agree with your assessment.

    The second season of "The Kominsky Method" is also very good.  

    Parent

    I should start The Kominsky Method (none / 0) (#19)
    by McBain on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:16:20 AM EST
    I finished the docu series The Devil Next Door about the trials of John Demjanjuk who was accused of being a ruthless Nazi concentration camp guard. It raises lots of interesting legal questions about how someone in a high profile case can get a fair trial.  

    Parent
    We just saw Martin Scorsese's ... (none / 0) (#156)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 09:00:28 PM EST
    ... "The Irishman" at the Hawaii International Film Festival in Honolulu, which was one of six such venues worldwide that was chosen by Netflix to premiere the film. (That was a real coup for festival executives and promoters, who also got to premiere Netflix's "Marriage Story" with Adam Driver and Scarlett Johannson.)

    I can confirm that Scorsese's latest mob epic absolutely lives up to the pre-release media hype. It's a masterpiece and arguably his best work in 30 years -- and given the quality of his body of work over the past three decades, that's really saying something. The entire ensemble cast is first-rate, and Robert De Niro, Al Pacino and Joe Pesci have to be considered strong contenders for Oscar nominations.

    Pesci's understated performance as Philadelphia mafia don Russell Bufalino in particular was impressive, and is literally light years from his menacing turn as the psychotic Tommy DeVito in Scorsese's 1991 film "Goodfellas." And Pacino really does a good job as Jimmy Hoffa, the bombastic Teamsters president whose big mouth and titanic ego ultimately dooms him. But De Niro is the focal point of the story and carries the film as the title character, the notorious mob hitman Frank Sheeran, and the story is told from his perspective.

    I believe "The Irishman" premieres in Netflix November 26 or 27. Be sure to catch it. It clocks in at 3-1/2 hours but honestly, you're swept up in the opening tracking shot and moves along briskly, so it doesn't feel like it's that long.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    It's also playing at our local nonprofit (none / 0) (#157)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 09:21:11 PM EST
    film institute. A great community resource. But I have to correct you on one point. Russell Bufalino was indeed a Pennsylvania mafia crime boss, but not in or from Philadelphia. His domain was the Scranton-Wilkes Barre area (northeastern PA). Philly is southeastern PA. Different mafia family. One of my early mentors in criminal defense was his long-time attorney.

    Parent
    Thank you for that clarification. (none / 0) (#160)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:43:07 AM EST
    I had assumed that Russell Bufalino was from Philadelphia because Frank Sheeran was from there and in "The Irishman," he's a close friend and confidant of Bufalino.

    Another prominent mobster depicted in the film is Angelo Bruno, who's played by the always great Harvey Keitel. Was he the Philadelphia mob boss? A caption in the movie when he was introduced says Bruno was subsequently killed in a hit in 1980.

    Ray Romano plays Russell Bufalino's cousin William Bufalino, who was a prominent attorney for the Teamsters union and off course had obvious ties to the mob through his longtime close relationship with Russell.

    Although much of the plot for "The Irishman" is set in Philadelphia, Scorsese actually shot most of the film in and around New York City. Anyway, if you have a chance to see it, please do so. You won't be disappointed.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes, Bruno was the "boss" (none / 0) (#161)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 09:31:46 AM EST
    in Philadelphia. In fact, local mafia history is often demarcated as "before Bruno" and "after Bruno." The murder of Angelo Bruno triggered an internecine mob war here that generated many killings and several fascinating prosecutions that my wife and I both had the opportunity to participate in defending. (One of my clients got 40 years for committing six murders, including one of his childhood "best friend." He later managed to become a father while serving the sentence, impregnating his wife in the visiting room of the penitentiary without anyone noticing!) Such interesting people, with endless great stories, as long as you remembered not to get too close to them. Bruno's granddaughter became a friend (and was a fine lawyer).

    Parent
    That's generally good advice in politics, as well. (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:11:36 PM EST
    Peter G: "Such interesting people, with endless great stories, as long as you remembered not to get too close to them."

    The Prosecuting Attorney in Honolulu is presently on leave from his post as the subject of a federal target letter, because he's alleged to have abused the powers of his office to influence and perhaps derail a federal investigation into the activities of a colleague and her husband, who were also longtime and good friends of his.

    Your profession as a criminal defense counsel is important but not for the faint of heart. The balance you have to maintain in the performance of your duties can be a very fine line. I'm sure it's difficult to not have empathy for some of the various predicaments faced by any number of your clients. But your capacity to serve their interests to the best of your ability requires you to maintain a perspective that's both clinical and objective.

    Emotion is an essential trait of the human condition, but when our ability to act dispassionately at key moments is compromised and / or impaired by emotion, our presence at that point can be entirely counterproductive.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    A lot of people here (none / 0) (#22)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:26:17 AM EST
    With serious willful ignorance about the fact that the younger generations are worse off than they were.

    Sorry you didn't make the world a better place.  Don't get mad at the people who come after you and refuse to settle for crumbs while you're defending the right of Bill Gates to amass a fortune.

    The generations who had to fight in wars (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by McBain on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    had it rough.  The rest of us have it pretty easy.  For the most part, the world is a better place today.

    Parent
    These generations are the first (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:39:01 AM EST
    To not be expected to do as well as their parents.

    We have known this a long time.  But as long as it's easy for you.....

    Parent

    Yes, I've had it easy and so have many others (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by McBain on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 01:16:43 PM EST
    who didn't have to fight in wars.  I'm thankful, especially today, of that fact.

    College debt and housing costs are a problem but I don't agree with CST's comment...
     "Sorry you didn't make the world a better place."...
    We have and we're continuing to do so.  

    Parent

    I guess Iraq and Afghanistan (none / 0) (#29)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    Don't count?  Must be nice.

    Parent
    Yes, but WWII (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:11:19 PM EST
    and Korea and Vietnam were of a different kind.

    We lost 400,000 dead in WWII.  57,000 in Vietnam, and people, lots of people, were being drafted.

    Parent

    Mr. Zorba and I (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Zorba on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 03:33:07 PM EST
    had friends whose names are on the Vietnam War Memorial Wall.
    We were both active in the anti-Vietnam War protests.  When Kent State happened, we all thought "That could have been us."  Yet we kept on protesting.

    Nobody should be minimizing the sacrifices of our friends and others whose names are on that wall (and I'm not talking about you, MKS).  Many, if not most, of them were drafted and didn't have a choice about joining the military.

    Parent

    It was never my intention to minimize (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 04:04:20 PM EST
    Those names.   I took issue with McBain pretending my names don't exist because he doesn't know any.  And then there are the names of those who did return, but aren't okay.  An even longer list - for all generations.

    Parent
    Some generations had to deal with a draft (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by McBain on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 07:40:54 PM EST
    and tremendous wartime casualties.    They had it rough.  

    Parent
    My Grandfather fought (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 10:34:51 PM EST
    in the Russian Civil War and WWI and saw families cannibalizing corpses.

    He tended allot about as much significance to proud, self-mythologizing Americans as to a queef shot into stiff wind. When he talked at all, which wasn't often.

    Didn't tens-of-millions of boomers pull the lever for Orange Caligula? So what happened to all that perennial wisdom; all those invaluable life lessons that are suppose to sustain us into the future?

    Insinuating that going through hardships is necessarily good for people rather than causing as many people to shut-down..poverty builds character..that facile sentiment has a National Review stench about it that won't wash off.

    Parent

    I was thinking similar (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:12:38 AM EST
    Trump exists politically because of boomers.  

    Nuff said.

    Parent

    My Dad grew up (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 09:21:22 PM EST
    in the 1930s.  Great Depression. WWII. And polio still raged.  And no t.v., no cell phones, no computers.  But he and millions of others still showed up.

    I don't view this as a competitive issue--who had it worse.  It is source of comfort and strength now--if they could do, so can we....  

    Parent

    Do you have (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:38:31 AM EST
    any statistics to back up whether young people are actually worse off? Other than college debt I'm not seeing much of a difference. When I graduated college in 1982 unemployment was 10% and you were lucky to get a job paying $3.35 an hour.

    Parent
    You are a transition generation. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:41:06 AM EST
    It's a fact that since WWII every generation was expected to do better than their parents.  Generally.

    No longer true.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:55:02 AM EST
    I am not going to do as well as my parents. So I'm sympathetic to that point of view but I'm just not sure what is defined as "not doing as well".

    Parent
    It means not making as much money (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 02:25:50 PM EST
    In adjusted numbers.  And the necessity of both people working.  Most of us and more people of our parents grew with one stay at home parent.  So child care was a whole different thing.
    It means owning a home which gets harder and more rare all the time.

    Among other things.

    Parent

    I didn't grow (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 03:02:43 PM EST
    up with a stay at home parent. My mother worked. My entire class who graduated from college had an extremely hard time with 10% unemployment. The only people that I saw that had it easy were people who were a few years ahead of me. The people born after 1958 seemed to have the same problems the millennials are talking about.

    Parent
    I'm one of those...graduated in '79 (none / 0) (#127)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 08:22:52 PM EST
    to 18% unemployment in my home town.

    But what allowed me to flourish is something that young people do not have now - an economy and system that was much more flexible in hiring young college graduates and also high school graduates for jobs for which they may not have every key word on the resume search checked off.  Now you not only need a college degree but credentials have to be in the exact computerized search criteria employers are using.

    That is part of what is resulting in the huge college debt. I think there are so many jobs for which a degree is "required" and should not be. It is an artificial screening system that also has the effect of discrimination against people that can't afford college at all. Instead of paying for college for everyone, let's open up more jobs to people without college.

    Parent

    This is true. (none / 0) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 05:15:50 AM EST
    There was a big series in the Atlanta Journal Constitution about this very issue. Law firms were requiring people to have a college degree to work as receptionist. They were using their receptionist position to filter out people to move up. Crazy insane system where you pay 100K to get a college degree to be a receptionist.

    Parent
    Here's one of many (none / 0) (#33)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 11:54:19 AM EST
    Articles on the subject.  Link It's been pretty widely reported.

    "the typical millennial's net worth is 40 percent lower than that of Gen Xers circa 2001 and 20 percent lower than boomers in 1989, the researchers found."

    If you read the Fed study cited in a lot of the articles (can't link a pdf) it goes into a lot of the numbers.

    Parent

    Okay. (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:00:32 PM EST
    Well, that basically blames the "great recession" for much of the problems since that is when most millennials came of age. Heck, my husband and I still have not recovered from the great recession. Many people haven't. And there is some kind of great dysfunction in the economy if the UE number is right  because in the 90's when we had low UE wages were going up monthly. Wages currently are stagnant or declining for everybody not just millenials.

    Parent
    This is 10 years later (none / 0) (#36)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:02:27 PM EST
    Yes it affected everyone.   Some a lot more than others.

    Parent
    It's really (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:07:25 PM EST
    unfortunate that Obama didn't listen to Paul Krugman and instead was so worried about the GOP going along. Here we are now with 2 trillion debt added in a short period of time for basically nothing.

    Parent
    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    I think most here are working to make the world a better place.

    Not sure what specifically drives this sentiment.  Opposition to Medicare for All or Free Tuition for All?

    Parent

    Opposition (none / 0) (#41)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:12:37 PM EST
    To Taxes on Bill Gates.

    Parent
    Gates gets taxed (none / 0) (#43)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:18:01 PM EST
    I think most think he should be taxed more.

    Taking away everything....

    It does seem to me the longer reforms are postponed, the more the pressure builds, and ultimately the dam bursts and voila! you have the French or Mexican Revolution.  Talk about change.

    Better to give a little now, than have a tidal wave of resentment and revolution later.  

    Parent

    Taking away everything (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 02:52:22 PM EST
    insulated Americans have no idea what sort of acts of desperation a man can be driven to when he's down to his last thousand million.

    Parent
    I agree with you in some respects. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 12:29:50 PM EST
    I want Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Jamie Dimond to pay more taxes. A lot more. I agree that boomers (my generation) are making LOTS of bad decisions (watching FOX News, supporting orange jesus).

    The wage disparity in this country is a disgrace. No one should make 43 times the money of their workers. I think I heard Lesley Stahl quote last night that CEO pay had grown 942% in the last 10 years while work paid had grown just 12%. That is completely unacceptable and disgraceful. It has to stop. No one needs that kind of money. And, the people who do the day to day work should reap more of the rewards.

    However, on the financial side, I see a lot of millennials making poor decisions. When I was in jr. high, we had a personal business class. Taught us stuff like understanding banking, stock market basics, how to write a check. My 33 year old step-daughter can't write a check. She never carries cash. She doesn't track her spending. She didn't know how to buy insurance on her car. This ended up costing her tons of money. I see 10-12 yr kids with smart phones (who is paying?).

    Restaurants around here are packed with millennials. Restaurant delivery is all the rage. How does anyone afford that? Or maybe that's why they can't afford childcare? Can't afford housing? Poor financial choices?

    Kids at the grocery store and fast food outlets (ok, not millennials) can't make simple change. They can't do simple arithmetic without a computer.

    I lived for many years paycheck to paycheck. No health insurance, no auto insurance. I know what it's like to struggle financially. Getting older, getting more skilled, making good financial decision as I aged, I'm not there anymore.

    Parent

    I have to say (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 01:15:54 PM EST
    that I too see a lot of poor choices being made by millennials i.e. my son and his friends. I also see his millennial fiancee as being good with money but she had to learn to be that way a very hard way.

    Parent
    And I'm sure (none / 0) (#52)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 02:50:59 PM EST
    No one in any previous generations ever made poor financial choices...

    None of this changes the fact that wages are lower, and costs are higher.

    Oh and no one uses a checkbook today because they are entirely unnecessary when you can do it all electronically including sending checks. Don't mistake changing times for poor choices, or anecdotes for data.  And "everything but student loans" sounds a lot like "other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

    Parent

    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 03:00:24 PM EST
    I see with the whole debit card thing is studies have shown that people as a whole spend 8% more money with debit cards than they do if they just used cash.

    Do you think it was easy trying to get a job with 10% employment right out of college? Do you think it was easy to make ends meet on the low wages back then? When I graduated wages had declined back to levels of 1967 and none of the cost of anything declined that much.

    Parent

    I dont think any of it was easy (none / 0) (#56)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 03:04:25 PM EST
    I also know it's gotten harder.

    We graduated into the great recession, not the regular recession.   That doesn't mean graduating into a regular recession is easy.  It just means that as bad as it was it's gotten worse.

    Parent

    Graduated (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 06:01:52 PM EST
    into the Great Recession.....Oy.   That was just in 2008.

    I do think a life of decades of experience matters....Over time, you just see things and mistakes, yours and others'.   It makes a difference.

    The blitheness with which some of the Bernie and Warren folks talk about change that would bring tremendous upheaval does take me back.  Big, big change is presaged by catastrophic events.  I for one do not want to go through a catatrophic event.

    Parent

    That's backwards though (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by CST on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:31:43 AM EST
    Social security didn't presage the great depression it came about as a result of it.  That was pretty tremendous upheaval.

    I honestly cannot think of a single catastrophe that has been caused by the introduction of a national healthcare system.  Something that has happened already in many nations around the globe and they all somehow survived.

    FWIW single payer is not my first preference, but I do not understand the fear.  The economic uncertainty built into the current system is far scarier.

    Parent

    Because (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 06:12:37 AM EST
    even Warren admits that what she is proposing is going to displace around 2 million workers. And blithely stating that they can work in P&C insurance is just wrong headed. The thing is nobody really knows because what is being proposed has never been done before. Even Canada doesn't have national health care. Their health care is by province. Anything done by a European country would equal a state single payer and then we have single payer attempted on a state level in Vermont and it completely collapsed.

    Parent
    Too Bad (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jmacWA on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 07:33:18 AM EST
    They can't replace 2 or 3 CEOs instead of all the workers

    Parent
    The economy added over (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 09:02:44 AM EST
    A million jobs just last year.  2 million sounds like a lot but the people in those jobs will be better able to transition, then say, coal miners.  And yet we have all accepted that coal is gone.  Warren should not have been as flippant as she was but I don't consider the modernization of the economy a catastrophe, whether it's due to new technology, climate change, or critical changes to the healthcare system.  

    Vermont is a state full of rural areas and old people.  It would probably be one of the hardest places to pull it off in a vacuum, especially when most taxes go to the federal government.  You really can't compare EU countries to states.  They don't pay the EU taxes which means they have lot more money to work with.

    Finally, this still has to get through both houses of Congress, which means no matter who the president is there will be compromises.  This is more about where you start the negotiations than where you actually end up. But the catastrophe in this scenario is the current broken system.

    Parent

    Yes, Senator Warren's (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 04:39:06 PM EST
    Medicare for All is a plan that shows that America can have a better system for health care for all its citizens (Bernie's plan remains, primarily, as aspirational) along with supportive details.  Medicare for All, as, to some extent,with most ideas for universal health care, reorders the existing health care systems, private and public, and expands to coverage for those not now covered.

    The reordering of the American health care system, which represents almost 18 percent of the GNP (spending of around $11,000/person). is no small fete.

    As you point out, any final plan will involve compromises.  Moreover, the political worries seem to be as great as the economic reordering--the loss of jobs in the private health insurance sector and fears for losing private insurance and/or union gains.

     To accommodate these important issues, will require an implementational transition. The fear of losing private insurance should be put to rest more easily--after all, Americans now leave behind any private insurance they may have when they reach age 65, and move on to Medicare.

    Private insurance continues to come into play in the form of supplemental insurance, picking up where Medicare leaves off.

     And, too, a better understanding of the deficits in those "good private insurance" plans will help getting over the hump.  For example, thousands of dollars in deductibles and sometimes prohibitive co-pays.

     Co-pays required of insurance plans are a deterrent to some from full deployment---drugs in particular. In the range of 10 percent do not comply with prescribed drug regimens--contributing to hospitalizations and, life threatening cases. Not only non-compliance with anti-diabetes, but also, cancer therapy drugs.

    Parent

    CST you (none / 0) (#103)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 11:46:28 AM EST
    sound dismissive of "old" people.  It seeps through your comments.

    Exhibit A:  Your comment:

    "Vermont is a state full of rural areas and old people."  Sounds very dismissive to me.

    After a few years, you will come to understand that people are for the most highly resistant to change.  Thus, a grand scheme will scare most people.

    Parent

    My parents live there (none / 0) (#106)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:17:47 PM EST
    They're old. So are their neighbors who I like very much.  It's not dismissive at all, it's an acknowledgement of demographics that makes healthcare more expensive and harder to implement.

    You on the other hand have been extremely dismissive of my point of view based on age. Maybe stop projecting.

    Parent

    Nope, you are the one (3.00 / 2) (#113)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:56:59 PM EST
    with the ageist comments.

    You twist my points--deliberately in my view--into something they are not.  

    You appear to lack a basic understanding of history regarding 20th Century America and simply do not care.  

    Parent

    Everyone here (none / 0) (#116)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 01:14:06 PM EST
    Is twisting my comments to pretend like I said previous generations had it easy and are arguing against points I never made.

    Your one example of me making an ageist comment was pointing out that healthcare is more expensive for old people.

    This is no longer a conversation I'm interested in having with you since you seem to be deliberately taking offense to innocuous statements, so I will not be engaging any further with your comments.  
    Feel free to continue to insult me personally if it makes you feel better.

    Parent

    It's the second oldest state in America (none / 0) (#108)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:21:47 PM EST
    Sorry if that fact offends you.

    Parent
    Where you start the negotiations (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:21:14 PM EST
    Oy.  Yes, the tired old criticism of Obama.  You start high and then meet in the middle.  So, threaten Medicare for All and settle for a public option.

    But a campaign for President is not like dickering in a flea market:  You get one shot to have a vote to validate your plan.

    Parent

    VT is (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 03:14:11 PM EST
    only 1 point off from Florida in percentage of elderly people and we all saw how MFA played there in 2018. Vermont is the most politically amenable state to MFA though wouldn't you say? Can you imagine trying to get something like that through in Montana? We haven't even gotten the Medicaid expansion to all the states when it was passed almost 10 years ago. Also if Warren's plan did pass, we would lose the midterm elections and the GOP would immediately start hacking away at whatever had passed much like Obamacare. Politics is the art of the possible not impossible. Possible is opening up Medicare which even that is going to be hard. We had better health plans in 2008 than what I'm seeing now from candidates and there are a lot of good plans out there like Medicare X and Medicare for America that don't disrupt everything so much. Also Medicare is not going to save much money as long as we continue to practice medicine the way we have been. In order to realize any savings, it is going to take 15 to 20 years. It's not like you're going to see any immediate savings.

    You can't compare insurance workers with coal miners because Warren would immediately displace 2 million people while coal has had a decades long decline. A comparison would for insurance to slowly start going away but that's not what Warren's plan says will happen.

    Parent

    It has a multi-year phase in (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 03:59:55 PM EST
    The proposal is not to do it all in one year.

    Parent
    No, you miss my point CST (none / 0) (#101)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 11:43:45 AM EST
    Social Security and the other economic policy changes were in response to a great catastrophe.

    So, the idea is that to have great change you need a great catastrophe.  Without a great catastrophe, you will not have the change...  Your great change will be viewed as a threat.....

    Parent

    Trump (1.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:23:57 PM EST
    Is the catastrophe.  If you dont think we're already in it that's part of the problem.

    Parent
    You are using (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 01:09:35 PM EST
    "catastrophe" in a different way  than I meant it. This is the classic logical fallacy of "equivocation."

    Trump is a "catastrophe" separate and apart from long running issues regarding health care and taxes.  

    And, yes, Trump needs to go.  Your implied insult that I somehow do not get current issues is cute but ultimately evasive.

    My point, reject it if you will, is that radically changing a major portion of our economy will be difficult without a major catastrophic event.  The UK instituted socialized medicine in the wake of WWII after their cities were relentless bombed and they faced imminent invasion from the Wehrmacht.

    Without a major catastrophic event, you will face resistance to major change, such as taking away employer based health insurance in return for a promise of something better.

    The biggest change in my lifetime is the changing role of women.  This change over the last decades is even more dramatic in my view than the technological changes we have seen. But it was incremental, almost imperceptible to my eye, until you look back at where we used to be.  Indeed, the signature women's rights effort, the Equal Rights Amendment, was a failure.

    So, if you go charging off the cliff with a "plan," you will likely fail and pull all of the rest of us with you.

    Experience does matter.  

    Parent

    And since we (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 06:06:00 PM EST
    are pitting Boomers against Millennials here, I will say this.

    Boomers, of which I am one, were raised with lots of praise.  We were the largest class in school nationally, we had the best test scores nationally, we were tallest physically because we had modern nutrition.  Boomers believed in themselves and often told people that.   Perhaps to an obnoxious extent.

    Millennials have it rough.  And they let us know all the time how rough they have it.

    Which is more annoying?

    Parent

    Frankly I think (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 06:43:16 PM EST
    a lot of millennial anger is misplaced. The people that they should be blaming are the Reaganites and conservatives. Boomers are only responsible to the point that some of them voted for Reagan. The GI generation as it is called by some.

    Parent
    The main difference (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 03:40:55 PM EST
    between then and now is that it took you five years to dig out from the recession and then you had a couple of good years before another recession came and wiped you out again. So you never really catch up. The only time in my entire life that we had extended good economy was the 90's. I walked out of my house and found a job within a day. Then came George W. Bush and the slow downward decline until collapse. I often think of Al Gore's warning about not taking a good economy for granted. Sad not enough people listened to him. We're getting to retirement age and I'm planning on keeping working because I'm not sure we have enough money to retire.

    Parent
    The other difference (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by CST on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 04:07:16 PM EST
    Is we started in a giant hole (student loans) and then got hammered, and 10 years later we still haven't climbed out of the hole.

    Parent
    Yes, and I hear (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 01:24:43 PM EST
    complaining about it all the time....

    Parent
    I was talking to a college friend (none / 0) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:29:10 AM EST
    About this recently.  The year we started (70) was we think the first year the college was not completely free.  We could not remember exact amounts but we think tuition was less that 200 a year.

    Now it's thousands

    Parent

    This was t one of our two state universities. (none / 0) (#132)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:30:09 AM EST


    Parent
    Now (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:37:31 AM EST
    Arkansas State University/Undergraduate tuition and fees
    In-state 8,200 USD, Out-of-state 14,260 USD
    2016-17
    Acceptance rate: 70.4% (2016-17)
    Typical SAT scores: Reading and Writing 433-585, Math 500-620 (2016-17)

    Parent
    Dublin Murders (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 04:46:09 PM EST
    New series on STARZ.  Really good.  We get Lord Varys in a very different role.  With a full head of real hair.


    `Dublin Murders' Review: When Echoes of Childhood Trauma Become Screams

    Looking forward to digging in. The Tana French (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 08:26:57 PM EST
    novels are so good. I've heard the show merges the first 2 books in the series, but that is ok with me, I never expect an exact reproduction on these shows. And I kind of didn't like how my favorite main characters from the first book dropped out of the second one, so I'm hoping this version corrects that atrocity!

    Parent
    Yes, I caught it last night. (none / 0) (#65)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 05:06:47 PM EST
    It was really good. An interesting spin on the police procedural. Started "The Spy", the Netflix series.  I like it a lot.  Not a "Borat" movie, at all.

    Parent
    It's always best to not pi$$ off historians. (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 06:00:21 PM EST
    We are an odd bunch as it is, and some of us are positively bonkers.

    nice lede in that story (none / 0) (#75)
    by leap on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 07:53:49 PM EST
    "MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Russian court on Monday charged a distinguished historian known for re-enacting Napoleonic battle scenes with the murder of his partner after he was found in a river with a rucksack containing her severed arms."

    Very realistic battle scene.

    Parent

    He seems to have been (none / 0) (#78)
    by desertswine on Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 10:26:59 PM EST
    disposing of his lover's body parts when he fell into the river.  Well, he did repent.

    Parent
    Then the divers who were exploring ... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:25:36 PM EST
    ... the river to search for the rest of the lover's remains came across another human skeleton that's unrelated to the investigation. Very noir.

    Parent
    OK, Boomer. (none / 0) (#82)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 07:37:46 AM EST
    Abigail Disney has a message for fellow Baby Boomers offended by the "OK boomer" trend: "How about you guys sit the [expletive] down and let the kids drive."

    Secret ballot? (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 07:39:18 AM EST

    There's a Surprisingly Plausible Path to Removing Trump From Office
    It would take just three Republican senators to turn the impeachment vote into a secret ballot. It's not hard to imagine what would happen then

    Something I've wondered is addressed (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 07:53:38 AM EST
    In that

    Vice President Mike Pence can't break ties in impeachment matters.


    Parent
    I'm (none / 0) (#86)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:15:37 AM EST
    not buying it, I think the cowards will use the secrecy to cover for  voting to acquit tRump rather than liberating them from consequences of voting to acquit.

    In other words tRump will get away with his crimes and no Senator will be on record helping him do so.

    Who knows (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:31:06 AM EST
    I tend to think most would love to be rid of him.  Almost certainly at least 20 of them.

    On the other hand I wonder what the reaction to a secret vote would be from the Q-Anon crowd.

    Would not be affirmation I think.

    Parent

    A (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by FlJoe on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:56:03 AM EST
    secret vote will surely be seen as "illegitimate" in some quarters.

    I'm sure most of them "personally" would rather be rid of him but "politically" is a different story.

    Ousting him in an election year would be harsh on the entire party possibly costing them the presidency and both houses.

    They will never vote country over party, especially if the can do so in secret.

    Parent

    They are going to lose (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 06:38:28 AM EST
    Both houses and the White House anyway.

    They are all coming to accept that.  That's why so many are quitting they are calling it the Red Exit.

    I really think this could go anywhere.  No one knows what is going to happen.

    And I think it's totally possible when these hearings, lawsuits and criminal investigations all culminate at the same time they may see their political future differently  

    Parent

    I do think (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Nov 12, 2019 at 08:33:19 AM EST
    A lot could depend on the hearings and the public's reaction to them.

    It it swings another 10 points or so all bets are off.


    Parent

    public coice (none / 0) (#95)
    by oliveajah on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 06:27:49 AM EST
    let the public choice .. more option
    ---------------------
    Sushi Goreng
    Wedding Sushi

    SITE VIOLATOR (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 06:46:35 AM EST


    Parent
    Olive jar (none / 0) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:06:28 PM EST
    ??

    Parent
    Devin Nunes Cow (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 11:45:20 AM EST
    Is looking really good to the GOP right now

    "What I can tell you, Mr Nunes, is that language is amazing inflammatory to all Ukrainians."

    Does Reps. Jordan and Ratcliffe have a question? (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:36:29 PM EST
    All they're doing is ranting.

    Parent
    The GOP has referenced Alexandra Chalupa. (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 01:03:41 PM EST
    They've also repeatedly referenced a Politico article in which Ms. Chalupa was decribed as a "Ukrainian-american operative," without noting that one of its two authors is Kenneth Vogel, who now works for the New York Times, and who was recently called out by the Columbia Journalism Review for promoting Rudy Giuliani's baseless conspiracy theories regarding Ukraine.

    Here's what Alexandra Chalupa said in response to Vogel's allegations:

    "Many countries feared a Trump presidency for a variety of reasons. So did many Americans on both sides of the aisle. It would be understandable for Ukraine to be concerned given Trump's alliance with Putin and his hiring of Paul Manafort. Almost everyone in the Ukrainian-American community knew early on about the significance of Manafort's hire - his last successful campaign was working for a Putin-backed President of Ukraine who was overthrown, stole tens of billions of dollars from Ukraine, is now wanted for high treason, and currently lives comfortably in Moscow."

    Her full response is worth a read.

    Parent

    I'll have to catch the replays (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 08:30:57 PM EST
    I could only listen sporadically at work. It was pretty much what I expected from the GOP. Could have been more of a fiasco.

    What strikes me is what a shame it is that Trump had the opportunity to learn so much from people like Amb. Taylor. What a golden chance we would all love. But he is just too selfish, narcissistic , lazy, stupid, you name it to do the right thing by his country.

    Lock him the f*** up.

    Parent

    I swear to you (none / 0) (#201)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 16, 2019 at 10:31:39 AM EST
    You will become hooked on WATCHMEN.

    maybe you are.  No comments I've seen.  I just watched this weeks episode again.  I have a houseguest who is totally unfamiliar so last night we rewatched the Zack Snyder movie (directors cut DVD).

    The music alone.  Seriously.

    Parent

    The Republican Lawyer (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:03:39 PM EST
    is good.  

    He really is.

    Parent

    I will agree that he did the best he could, ... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 12:33:37 PM EST
    ... given the material he had to work with, and the fact that his clients are gingerly dancing around the fact that Col. Mustard, Mr. Green and Professor Plum were caught red-handed in the parlor holding a candlestick, lead pipe and a rope.

    Parent
    What on earth (none / 0) (#120)
    by CST on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 02:30:20 PM EST
    Is Deval Patrick thinking?

    Does anyone outside of Massachusetts have a single opinion about him or even know that he exists?

    Who? (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 02:59:45 PM EST
    :-)

    Parent
    Didn't he used to be somebody? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 03:36:34 PM EST
    I think THIS sums up former Gov. Patrick's prospective candidacy quite nicely.

    Parent
    Especially (none / 0) (#146)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:45:00 PM EST
    after the deal with his brother in law. That's already making the rounds on twitter. One ad would collapse his campaign.

    Parent
    Why (none / 0) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:59:18 PM EST
    I mean he has legal problems.  What does that have to do with Patrick.

    Not a supporter.  I don't get his candidacy either but I don't see why his brother in law should doom his public life.

    Is there something I don't know.

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:10:51 PM EST
    this

    Parent
    Again (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:23:31 PM EST
    What does this have to do with Patrick

    Parent
    This (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:37:33 PM EST
    is what I'm seeing:
    In 2014 Deval Patrick fired leaders of his state's Sex Offender Registry for trying to force his brother in law to register due to being convicted of rape in California in 1993.

    In 2019, that same rapist was sentenced to 6 years for another rape.

    Parent

    Like most things on Twitter (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:44:06 PM EST
    It's not that simple
    And pretty old news

    Patrick ousts two, with motive partly personal
    By Michael Levenson Globe staff,September 22, 2014, 12:31 p.m.



    Parent

    Are felonious in-laws (none / 0) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:25:02 PM EST
    Now a prohibition to public service

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:37:59 PM EST
    but in this case it appears he intervened.

    Parent
    Emotional moment on Jeopardy (none / 0) (#124)
    by McBain on Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 03:41:07 PM EST
    Link
    Difficult not to get choked up when you see that.  Earlier, Alex Trebek announced he was reentering treatment for pancreatic cancer.  

    Pelosi Press Conference (none / 0) (#136)
    by MKS on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 10:00:42 AM EST
    She is in command here.  Very impressive imo.

    In terms of women leaders, she shows how women leaders can be wise, tough and decisive....and still be personable.....

    She is the best leader we have right now.

    If only we could oust Pence along with the Gran Cheeto.

    Were events were to go seriously south ... (none / 0) (#138)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 01:32:01 PM EST
    ...  for Republicans, i.e., the evidence of misconduct becomes so overwhelming that public opinion turns decisively in favor of removal, it would not surprise me at all if Senate Majority Leader "Moscow Mitch" McConnell opens a backchannel to the Speaker in an attempt to cut a deal that jettisons Trump in favor of Pence.

    That said, I daresay our D.C. press corps really needs to do far better than this hack job by NBC's Jonathan Allen, who covered yesterday's public hearing as though he were reviewing an unsatisfying episode of a TV show:

    NBC News | November 14, 2019
    Plenty of substance but little drama on first day of impeachment hearings - "Analysis: The first two witnesses called Wednesday testified to Trump's scheme, but lacked the pizzazz necessary to capture public attention. [...] At a time when Democrats are simultaneously eager to influence public opinion in favor of ousting the president and quietly apprehensive that their hearings could stall or backfire, the first round felt more like the dress rehearsal for a serious one-act play than the opening night of a hit Broadway musical."

    When our country's Constitution and its democratic principles are at stake, suffice to say that the media has to take their job far more seriously than this, and up their own game accordingly. For those journalists like Mr. Allen who seek "pizzazz," I recommend they instead seek out director Bob Fosse's 1972 Oscar-winning musical "Cabaret."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Boring, (none / 0) (#140)
    by KeysDan on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 03:16:30 PM EST
    says Eric Trump, dutifully glomming onto the Republican talking point of the day.  Gym Jordan is their pizzazz model---a dirty white shirt with rolled up sleeves, topped off with a motormouth.  Although what they lacked in bling they compensated for with humor, albeit unintended.

    Parent
    TPM has posited that ... (none / 0) (#141)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 03:25:49 PM EST
    ... the pivotal event of the current Ukraine shakedown scandal was the April 21 election of Volodymyr Zelensky as president of Ukraine.

    Apparently President Trump and his consigliore Rudy Giuliani already had a deal in place with the defeated incumbent Petro Poroshenko and his prosecutor general Yuriy Lutsenko, who had agreed to announce investigations into both the 2016 election meddling allegations and Joe and Hunter Biden.

    That deal obviously got derailed with Zelensky's landslide election, which forced Trump and Giuliani to recalibrate their efforts in anticipation of the prospective change in Ukrainian leadership.

    The two related articles are HERE and HERE, and are worth a read.

    Aloha.

    Very cute (none / 0) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 06:23:27 PM EST
    but I would have named him Butthead

    These guys always get frail (none / 0) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 07:58:36 PM EST
    When the walls are closing in.   Remember Manafort in his wheel chair.

    Apart from Donald J Trump I honestly can't think of anyone I would like to see in jail more than Roger Stone.

    We have waited a long time for this.


    Roger Stone's health in question as prosecutors have him `dead to rights': NBC reporter

    More jury deliberations tomorrow.

    He's gonna (none / 0) (#155)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 08:16:21 PM EST
    try another health head fake?

    Parent
    Ivanka (none / 0) (#158)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 09:40:59 PM EST
    Her holier than thou smugness makes me seethe.

    Parent
    About Sondland's call (none / 0) (#159)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Nov 14, 2019 at 11:47:37 PM EST
    The nature of the conversation between Sondland and Trump from the Ukraine restaurant may be arguable.

    The FACT of the conversation seems beyond dispute. I imagine Schiff has Sondland's cellphone bill.

    So what we have Trump saying about his "unfamiliarity": with Sondland is that this guy he "barely knew" had his personal cell phone number, and he took the call.

    Did Sondland put Trump on speakerphone? (none / 0) (#193)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 05:22:28 PM EST
    Or was Trump speaking so loudly to Sondland that he had to hold the phone away from his ear? A second State Dept. official has now come forward to corroborate David Holmes' account of that phone call in the Kyiv restaurant. As I write, Holmes is presently testifying before the House Intelligence Committee.

    Let's see GOP Intel Committee members try to "hearsay" that.

    Parent

    From the new (none / 0) (#195)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 05:34:40 PM EST
    testimony that was released just a little bit ago, the witness said that Trump was speaking so loudly that he could hear what Trump was saying over Sondland's earpiece and at times Trump was so loud that Sondland held the phone away from his ear.

    Parent
    "Zelensky loves your a$$." (none / 0) (#196)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 06:25:47 PM EST
    "Every time Rudy gets involved he goes and f*cks everything up."

    Just two of Gordon Sondland's comments as gleaned from Mr. Holmes' opening statement to the House Intelligence Committee.

    Oy.

    Parent

    That's a lot (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 07:59:19 PM EST
    to love.

    Parent
    Now you are just being cruel ... (none / 0) (#198)
    by vml68 on Sat Nov 16, 2019 at 08:25:43 AM EST
    to us.
    I really did not want to be reminded of this image.

    Parent
    I'm partial (none / 0) (#199)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 16, 2019 at 10:23:43 AM EST
    to this one.

    It's more like art.

    Parent

    This one IS (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by leap on Sat Nov 16, 2019 at 10:27:58 AM EST
    art.

    Parent
    Today's (none / 0) (#162)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 09:55:59 AM EST
    testimony appears to be going very badly for the GOP. However I doubt it will move the needle one iota with them.

    Today I had a peer mentoring breakfast (none / 0) (#163)
    by CST on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 09:57:55 AM EST
    With a bunch of "mid-career" women in the civil engineering industry.   It was a very broad age group, probably at least a 30 year age gap between the oldest and youngest women there.  Once thing that struck me was the discussion of how many times there are situations where other managers try to "protect" you by not sending women out to construction sites because the behavior of the men there will "offend".  

    Of course the irony there is that literally every young woman in America knows exactly what a construction site is like and no one protects you while you're being harrassed in the streets.   But as soon as you are there in an official capacity they immediately start to worry about your "feelings" to explain why you can't have that job/experience.

    That story was told by both the youngest and the oldest person in the room.

    fwiw, a buddy's daughter just graduated from (none / 0) (#166)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 11:07:57 AM EST
    Cal Poly SLO last spring in civil engineering, and was quickly hired by a construction firm heavily involved in downtown LA's "resurgence." Her starting salary and hiring bonus(!) were, to me and her dad, quite shocking in a very positive way.

    Anyway, according to her dad, she's on site basically every day.

    To be fair, her dad has been in the construction industry his whole life, so she grew up in it and is very comfortable and knowledgeable.

    Not presenting this as a counter-point to what you said, just another person's experience.

    Parent

    Every single one of us (none / 0) (#169)
    by CST on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 12:15:17 PM EST
    Also has a counter experience or we wouldn't be sitting at that table. Generally because we walked away, sooner or later, from the negative ones.

    We also talked about the cliff that exists when you try to move up, and how everyone loves a junior engineer that knows their place.

    Parent

    Ya. It will be interesting to talk to her (none / 0) (#172)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 12:29:49 PM EST
    in 5-10 years.

    Parent
    I am (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 12:17:28 PM EST
    so totally not surprised to hear this unfortunately. This is also why when men start talking about "protecting" women it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I think most women know how to take care of themselves thank you.

    Parent
    Yea (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by CST on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:59:57 PM EST
    You almost have to laugh.  I just don't know anyone who makes it to adulthood as a woman without dealing with the comments from construction sites.

    Of course the "solution" to these things is always to punish the outsider rather than change the culture. As engineers we don't need it to change for us, we've already been through the ringer and come out the other side. But it is profoundly messed up that it's a right of passage for young women to have to deal with that.  And by young I mean 11 year olds.

    Parent

    Roger (none / 0) (#164)
    by FlJoe on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 10:35:47 AM EST
    Stone found guilty on all counts. Link

    No snappy sound bites (none / 0) (#165)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 10:59:20 AM EST
    From Roger.

    Parent
    Possibly (none / 0) (#167)
    by FlJoe on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 11:08:21 AM EST
    a snappy new prison tattoo to join Nixon on his back though.

    Parent
    Finally, (5.00 / 5) (#190)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:39:27 PM EST
    Nixon is going to jail.

    Parent
    Are you doing (none / 0) (#171)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 12:19:57 PM EST
    cartwheels today over the verdict :)?

    Parent
    I will wait until sentencing (none / 0) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:08:11 PM EST


    Parent
    The pivotal (none / 0) (#191)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:53:41 PM EST
    role Stone played in colluding with Russia in the interference in the 2016 election, as revealed by the trial, should cause review of the findings of Vol. I of the Mueller Report---no conspiracy.  

    Parent
    Federal law would authorize the judge (none / 0) (#168)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 11:08:57 AM EST
    to revoke his bail now and put him in the D.C. jail, based on the verdicts alone.

    Parent
    Some people seemed surprised (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:14:00 PM EST
    He was allowed to walk free.  

    Parent
    I'm not surprised. (none / 0) (#178)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:31:20 PM EST
    I'm very hard pressed to think of anyone else of any note in politics who so openly embraced his own dubious reputation as a bad actor. Suffice to say Roger Stone's accumulation of toxic karma over the course of nearly a half-century finally overwhelmed his intimidating aura.

    Parent
    Adam Schiff (none / 0) (#174)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:11:13 PM EST
    Is doing a great job slapping down the clown show

    Amb. Marie Yovanovitch has conducted herself ... (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:54:15 PM EST
    ... in a very credible and compelling manner in the public hearing on Capitol Hill today. Her Republican inquisitors, not so much.

    Parent
    Perhaps I am simply a nerd (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:02:21 PM EST
    But I am finding this absolutely gripping.  I've been watching all day.  It's surreal.  The hearing, Trump attacking her in real time, Stone convicted on all counts.   Unreal.

    And I agree she has been impressive.  By being normal.

    All I can say is

    Thank god for self medication.

    Sondland is going to be something.

    Parent

    It (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:06:31 PM EST
    Seems to be gripping to a lot of people. Maybe it will not be considered "boring"

    Parent
    I was thinking (none / 0) (#184)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:04:09 PM EST
    If Rudy is indicted (raise your hand if you think he won't be) it will be pivotal

    Parent
    No offense to Judiciary Chair Jerry Nadler, ... (none / 0) (#177)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:25:26 PM EST
    ... but Speaker Pelosi knew exactly what she was doing when she designated Intel Committee Chair Adam Schiff to lead the House impeachment inquiry, because he's kept the committee both focused and on track. His style stands in sharp contrast to Nadler's, who's run his own committee looking like he's trying to herd cats.

    Parent
    He running it (none / 0) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 01:32:09 PM EST
    Like a Republican

    Imagine that

    Parent

    IIRC (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:02:26 PM EST
    It was impeachment that out Adam into office in the 90s

    Parent
    I worked on Schiff's successful 2000 campaign ... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:19:49 PM EST
    ... in which he handily defeated incumbent Rep. James Rogan (R-Pasadena). As I remember, a big issue that did not sit well with district voters was his prominent role as one of the House GOP impeachment managers during President Clinton's Senate trial in 1999.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#194)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 05:32:20 PM EST
    for your help in putting a defender of democracy and all round great guy into office.

    Parent
    Schiff just received an ovation and cheers ... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:09:21 PM EST
    ... from the audience for his closing remarks, leaving several GOP colleagues to sputter and blubber in futile response as he adjourned the hearing.

    Parent
    Are you sure? (5.00 / 3) (#187)
    by jmacWA on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:17:43 PM EST
    To me it appeared that the applause was for Ambassador Yovanovitch.  I am not sure, that's just how it seemed to me.  I was watching on CSpan so we might have had different perspectives.

    I am not saying that Schiff didn't do a good job, just that I thought the applause was for the Ambassador, and well deserved.

    Parent

    I was listening to Schiff ... (none / 0) (#189)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 02:26:33 PM EST
    ... while I was outside the room and I wasn't watching it, so without the visual it sure sounded like the crowd was responding to what he had just said. But since you actually saw what was going on, I'll have to defer to your perspective and stand corrected.

    Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Dark Side of the Moon) and a number of his Republican colleagues on the House Intelligence Committee are now whining about how Chair Schiff refused to allow the 5-year-olds to run the kindergarten class.

    You know who really looks bad right now? Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-NY) is trying so hard to be a Trump attack dog, and has wound up only diminishing herself in front of the country.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    John Bel Edwards... (none / 0) (#202)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 16, 2019 at 10:35:30 PM EST
    ekes out a win in Louisiana despite (or more likely because of) Sleazy Don's three recent rallies there.

    Sunday Open Thread | 202 comments (202 topical)