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Republican's Unveil Their Inadequate Health Care Bill

I didn't have to read a word of the Republican proposed health care bill to know it would be an as*-backwards approach to medical care. I've now read one article, and need go no further than this to prove the point: It swaps penalties for not buying insurance for penalties for letting it lapse:

People who let their insurance coverage lapse, however, would face a significant penalty. Insurers could increase their premiums by 30 percent, and in that sense, Republicans would replace a penalty for not having insurance with a new penalty for allowing insurance to lapse.

No major health care bill passes without months or years of discussion and amendments. The final version is always a compromise, and looks little like the original proposal. So other than demonstrating once again, what bad ideas Republicans have, I'm not going to be reading too much about it as of now, but for those of you who are worried about it, here's a place to discuss it.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Just don't touch my Medicare... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by fishcamp on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:08:46 AM EST
    Be aware of old guys, we can turn.

    Time to mobilize the old guys, fishcamp. (none / 0) (#4)
    by caseyOR on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:56:00 AM EST
    The GOP "Repeal and Replace" bill will have an adverse effect on Medicare. The ACA (Obamacare) has provisions that have extended the life of the Medicare Trust Fund. This GOP bill, as written, reduces the life of that trust fund by at least four years. No chance in hell the GOP will do anything to extend the trust fund.

    Medicare and Social Security are very much on the chopping block here. Let us not forget that Paul Ryan's deepest desire is destruction of those programs.

    Time to rile up the guys at the gym.

    Parent

    president trump (none / 0) (#108)
    by linea on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:50:47 PM EST
    when campaigning stated he would not cut medicare or social security and congressman bernie sanders has been repeatedly challenging trump to keep his word.

    Parent
    And? (none / 0) (#113)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:42:20 AM EST
    1.  Trump made hundreds of campaign "promises" and has already broken many of them.  He lies constantly.  He has zero credibility.  Why would anyone who claims to be a progressive believe anything he says?

    2.  You think Bernie's challenges have even the slightest influence over the Orange Julius???

    Heh.

    Parent
    Planned Parenthood says this bill also (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Peter G on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:00:46 PM EST
    contains the "defund PP" provision -- barring any Medicaid reimbursements from going to PP for providing any services of any kind to the millions of poor women (and some men) that they serve. Including birth control, mammograms, healthy pregnancy prenatal care, etc.

    Hopefully that means some ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:04:30 PM EST
    ... Republican Senators who objected to this will put their money where their mouths are and vote against it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Parent
    I read where (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:49:38 PM EST
    Trump tried to blackmail PP saying if they would give up doing abortions then he would give them the money.

    Parent
    correct (none / 0) (#145)
    by linea on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 09:20:40 PM EST
    donald trump stated during the campaign that he would substantually increase funding for pp to provide women's services if they ceased providing abortions.

    i dont expect pp will capitulate to that offer but...

    there is a pp near me that ive gone to and one near the university that some friends used to frequent (before pharmacists could prescribe birth controll) and neither of those pp clinics perform abortion. i wonder what percentage of pp clinics nation-wide do? 5% maybe? i dont know.

    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#146)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 10:13:32 PM EST
    donald trump stated during the campaign that he would substantually increase funding for pp to provide women's services if they ceased providing abortions.

    When did he do that?  Ga6th is talking about the fact that he just recently said he would not defund PP if they stopped providing abortions.  During the campaign, he specifically promised to defund them.  If he had actually promised to substantially increase funding to PP, this would've been all of the media and conservatives would've gone nuts.

    Parent

    Cue (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Nemi on Fri Mar 10, 2017 at 06:06:34 AM EST
    one of the brilliant 'Briefing'-videos from Team Hillary Clinton: What mattered to the Republican candidates.

    Parent
    Americans, aged 50 (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 10:46:10 AM EST
    to 64 will be paying substantially more for health insurance under the Republican repeal and replace, and maybe repeal plan. Under the present ACA plan, older Americans cannot be charged more than three times as much as younger consumers.  TrumpNOCare bumps that ratio up to 5 to l.

    How does it compare with pre ACA? (none / 0) (#125)
    by McBain on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 02:41:08 PM EST
    The over 50 crowd had high premiums back then, will this be better, the same or worse?

    Parent
    Better. MUCH better (none / 0) (#129)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 03:13:25 PM EST
    Because despite the fact that insurance companies will be able to charge them much more, and the average subsidy/tax credit they receive will be much less, health insurance premiums decreased drastically since 2010.

    How do you make a snark tag, again?

    Parent

    The bill (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 08:44:46 AM EST
    is simply abysmal and any Republican that votes for this bill should be a member of the Walking Dead come election time.

    Heh, The Walking Dead (none / 0) (#30)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:45:26 PM EST
    is set and filmed on Georgia, no?

    I have never been there, but I get a good tour of the smaller towns and pine trees, etc.

    And, the Walking Dead version set in LA lets one view Mexico and the coast.


    Parent

    Trump was (none / 0) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:55:26 AM EST
    reported to be fuming about Sessions' recusal on investigation into the Russian/Trump campaign, prompting his dawn-breaking twin tweets about Obama and Schwartzenegger.  

    To provide the necessary calmative, the Stephens, Bannon and Miller, tried to cheer Trump up with new plans for the Muslim/refugee ban.

     The latest iteration of Obamacare repeal and replacement is likely to continue to swing his mood into a better zone with the cuts in taxes on the rich and cuts in benefits for the poor and middleclass.  And, of course, higher premiums for all.

    I like Chaffetz's comment here (none / 0) (#5)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 10:34:42 AM EST
    in this CNN article
    Americans have choices, and they've got to make a choice. So rather than getting that new iPhone that they just love and want to go spend hundreds of dollars on that, maybe they should invest in their own health care.

    Everyone should have healthcare but not necessarily equal health care. If  you want better coverage you should pay for it.

    Yes, the poor really need to give up their Iphones (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by vml68 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 06:53:39 PM EST
    I say they need to sell the Ferrari and forgo the vacation to Bora Bora,too!

    Parent
    And, (none / 0) (#6)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 10:43:49 AM EST
    if you don't want to die because you can't afford insurance on minimum wage, well, suck it.

    Parent
    It's called (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 10:45:02 AM EST
    the You Better Plan on Dying or the Die Quick healthcare plan.

    Parent
    That is (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 10:44:06 AM EST
    the most ignorant comment I have heard about this plan. He has no idea the cost of healthcare and it shows with that statement. I guess he also does not know or is ignorant about the fact that purchasing an Iphone is a one time expense where the cost of insurance is a monthly recurring expense.

    Parent
    Par for the course for a guy who ... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:48:52 AM EST
    ... also claimed that the several thousand protestors who confronted him at a recent town hall meeting in Salt Lake City were paid provocateurs bussed in from out of state.

    Parent
    I know quite a bit about the cost of health care (none / 0) (#28)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:42:19 PM EST
    I'm self employed.  It's a big deal to me.  I know all about age discrimination in the private market and pre existing conditions.

    Iphones aren't always one time expenses.  People often opt to pay the cost  over several months.  People also opt for higher priced data plans.  These are all decisions that can effect the amount of healthcare one can afford.

    Parent

    I also (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:53:42 PM EST
    am self employed. He is making it an either or choice which it is not.

    And the plan will undo the graduations on age of Obamacare and likely increase policy premiums for older citizens three times of what they are currently paying. Face it this bill is a big stinker and there was a reason they wanted to keep it hidden.

    Parent

    You can't have everything (none / 0) (#35)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:01:13 PM EST
    My smart phone cost me $70, not $700.  It works just fine.  My cell phone bill is $55/month.  I made decisions to keep those costs down so I could put more money elsewhere.

    I don't want people to go without any healthcare but I don't want to pay for someone who's lazy and doesn't prioritize their finances.  Maybe you do?

    Parent

    What I don't want ... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    ... is poor and lower income people to suffer without healthcare because of the latest version of the "Welfare Queen" myth.

    Maybe you do?

    Parent

    You will pay anyway via higher costs (none / 0) (#60)
    by vicndabx on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:41:37 PM EST
    from the care provider since they would need to subsidize their costs for people who are "lazy and don't prioritize their finances."  What of people who do that but still can't afford the doctor visit?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:42:58 PM EST
    that is the myth the GOP has been selling for quite a while along with the myth that tax cuts pay for themselves and wars in the middle east will be paid for by oil revenues.

    Parent
    Stupid (none / 0) (#10)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:21:56 AM EST
    statement if you ask me.

     First the price of an I-phone will only buy you a couple of months coverage, what else would people need to give up for the other 22 months(assuming they buy a new phone every two years)?

    Second what does he think the individual mandate is for? A healthy 20 something will probably choose an I-Phone(and other lifestyle enhancements) 9 out of 1o times.

    Third, expecting the lower/working class to spend much, most or all of their disposable income on health insurance would likely be a huge drag on the economy.


    Parent

    Correct! And give the man a Kewpie doll! (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:06:46 PM EST
    Third, expecting the lower/working class to spend much, most or all of their disposable income on health insurance would likely be a huge drag on the economy

    That's exactly what's happening now.

    And no, I have no idea if the new plan will reduce prices.

    But a national market, if they actually get it done, and plans that fit the individual versus one size fits all should do the trick


    Parent

    The new (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:23:25 PM EST
    play is U pay. You pay for everything. They are hoping that people will chose to be sick or die instead of going to see a doctor. This plan is a double whammy on most people. They are going to have to pay for insurance that doesn't pay out and they are going to have to pay out of pocket for all their medical expenses.

    Parent
    Hooey (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:28:53 PM EST
    We already pay for everything.

    Including deductibles that are so high the insurance company never paid a penny.

    Parent

    So you (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:34:52 PM EST
    think paying MORE for less is a good idea? You know with the new plan they can triple your premium based on your age?

    Parent
    Quit flacking the (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:41:19 PM EST
    Medicare thingee. It will still be there.

    Will it have to change? Yes. And watch my lips.

    Irrespective of whether the current plan is Obamacare or whatever the Repubs gin up.

    Will the out of pocket payment of premiums with/without the tax credit be more? Be less?

    No one knows.

    But demographics are slowly driving us to a single payer plan. I wouldn't be surprised if that is a key item in the next presidential election.


    Parent

    No, there has (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:49:26 PM EST
    been some scoring going on. CNBC said that the 3 to1  ratio is going to be repealed allowing insurers to charge you 5 times or more what a 20 year old would pay for insurance.

    Medicare is next on the chopping block and they are taking away Medicare funding with this "repeal and replace" You're on the chopping block Jim but then you're like a chicken who walks into KFC thinking they are the one that won't get eaten.

    Parent

    No Ga, Medicare will not be replaced (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:54:40 PM EST
    Give your fear campaign a rest.

    But all the more reason for a single payer system!

    Parent

    The way Obamacare is stuctured right now (none / 0) (#32)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:49:58 PM EST
    it gives too much help to people who don't want to work at all or only want to work part time. It's not a realistic solution.  


    Parent
    Two-thirds of Medicaid recipients (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Towanda on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 07:12:02 PM EST
    -- Medicaid being the greatest growth area under Obamacare -- are children.

    But you want to put them to work.

    You must have loved the nineteenth century.

    Parent

    I wouldn't put it that way... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:27:01 PM EST
    the ACA seems to give a good amount of help to the working poor, but not enough help to the working but not quite poor enough, nor enough help to the self-employed and small business owning middle class.  

    And way way way too much help to the insurance industry....but don't get me started.

    Parent

    I think you nailed it Kdog (none / 0) (#75)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:32:52 PM EST
    But, ohhhhhh, if it wasn't for those lazy layabout old people.

    Parent
    For all the people (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:41:10 PM EST
    who sound so jealous of people with no job and no money on public assistance with Medicaid, I've yet to meet a single one willing to trade places with a person with no job and no money on public assistance with Medicaid.  Not a single one.

    If the destitute life was as fabulous as Chaffetz makes it sound, I would have gotten on the dole 20 years ago!!!  But alas, that life really sucks balls, even if you can wiggle a smartphone and a pack of cigarettes a day out of it.  Which is why I still go to work everyday...

    Parent

    Yeah, ole buddy (none / 0) (#89)
    by NYShooter on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 04:19:10 PM EST
    They said (say) the same about prison: "roof over your head, 3 squares a day, clean sheets & clothes, good medical - dental care."

    A regular paradise!

    Parent

    Yes, too much (none / 0) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:47:34 PM EST
    help to the poors, unfortunates, and steroptypes.  Not only cruel, but also unrealistic, given a civilized society and sheer and broader health economics, such as alternative health care options and economies in avoiding emergency room care as well as the cost impact of relying upon retrospective rather than preventative care.

    Parent
    I watched that live this am on CNN (none / 0) (#16)
    by mm on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:05:29 PM EST
    Alisyn Camerota did a fantastic job pushing Chaffetz on the question of people losing coverage under this plan.  Chaffetz didn't want to go there - kept repeating the new catchphrase of the day, "access", as in "we want everyone to have access to a good insurance plan",  but Camerota kept pushing him to answer her question until the words came spilling out, words I feel he will live to regret saying.

     

    Parent

    Are you saying the tax credits aren't enough? (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:07:49 PM EST
    Tax credits are of little or no benefit ... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:33:07 PM EST
    ... to people who already live on the margins and pay little or no income taxes. For members of the middle class, they are of dubious value since such a system will likely require them to pay more out of pocket in either higher deductibles or higher premiums, which will more than offset the benefit of the tax credit.

    This is one instance in which program cost is pegged directly to coverage. If the GOP plan costs less than the ACA, then less people are going to be covered. Period.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Tax credits (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:20:58 PM EST
    are great for millionaires. It looks like they are going to be able to write off their entire 20 million dollar and more salary. You have to be able to afford the monthly premium before you can even get a tax credit is the problem.

    Parent
    Uh, the tax credit is given in advance... (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:26:46 PM EST
    Which a couple of Sen/Reps don't like but I see that sticking.

    Look, I'm not happy that he didn't go for a single payer plan but try to be factual in your criticisms.

    Parent

    That is not (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:36:00 PM EST
    a tax credit. That is a subsidy. They should just be honest about what they are doing then. Don't call it a tax credit when it is not.

    Parent
    Whatever you want to call it (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    will be fine with the people who get it.

    Parent
    As as supposed advocate for (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:11:15 PM EST
    single payer, you are remarkably supportive of a plan that just barely came out and had not been closely analyzed.

    It appears your support of Trump outweighs your supposed support of single payer.  

    Parent

    Supportive???? Can you read? (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:48:32 PM EST
    I've actively pointed out its faults.

    Along with noting that no one knows what the out of pocket expenses will be with/without the "tax credit."

    But making a lot of wild claims, such as out of state companies won't have to follow state regs, serves no one. You think the feds won't cover that??

    You purchased a car lately??

    Parent

    No, you mean the people (none / 0) (#38)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:05:49 PM EST
    who are wealthy.

    Parent
    "Be factual" - heh (none / 0) (#29)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:42:50 PM EST
    Replacement healthcare plan would cost poor and older people the most.

    Easy enough.  BTW - As a "social liberal", you might might want to get a few facts yourself (and a CBO score) before you start making baseless claims about this plan and what you think it will do.

    Parent

    Uh, the cost will vary depending (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:06:16 PM EST
    on age.

    And as a Left winger, instead of complaining about this one why not join me in calling for a single payee system paid for by a federal sales tax??

    Parent

    Sales taxes are (none / 0) (#45)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:12:37 PM EST
    regressive.  

    No sale on that point.

    Single payer based on some other tax.

    But that is all academic and as your precious Trump and GOP will not support it.

    Parent

    I didn't say they would. (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:51:38 PM EST
    The sales tax can be combed and trimmed. Unprepared food and other items not taxed can make it fairer.

    But I get your point that you want someone else to pay for your health care.

    Parent

    Says the guy on Medicare (none / 0) (#71)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:02:11 PM EST
    That's pretty funny, considering that you're on Medicare, where the average recipient receives faaaar more in benefits than they paid.  Even more so in married, one-worker households.  I guess you guys just want everyone else to pay for your health care.

    Parent
    I'd lose Medcare (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:44:11 PM EST
    if we put in a single payer system that covered everyone.

    But based on what my wife and I am paying now and spending now we'd lose a bit.

    BTW - Medicare is not free. Medicaid is.

    Two different things.

    Parent

    Of course they're two different things (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:25:18 PM EST
    Which doesn't change the fact that, as a Medicare recipient, other people are paying for your healthcare.  The very same thing you use as a pejorative to try to insult others.

    It's the hypocrisy.

    Parent

    No, not freeloading (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:23:08 PM EST
    Just not skewed to benefit the wealthy.

    Parent
    Because you're disingenuous (none / 0) (#48)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:18:27 PM EST
    You claim to support single payer, but then vote for a candidate who specifically disavowed any single payer system.  Now, you're defending a plan you know nothing about because it's a Republican plan.  Not too mention that you rant the most regressive form of taxation there is.  No thanks.  I'm hoping you have to live with your fellow Republican's plan where they slash Medicare benefits to those elderly who are (in their minds) part of that "47%" sponging of the rest of us.

    Parent
    There are other things more important (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:45:58 PM EST
    I am not a single issue voter.

    And I have not defended anything, just pointed out some errors from you.

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#82)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:27:36 PM EST
    You haven't pointed out a single error.  But since you say you're not defending it, no doubt you'll be happy to take this opportunity to state unequivocally that you want single payer and you unequivocally oppose Trumpcare.

    Heh.

    Cue the crickets.

    Parent

    grasshoppers..katydids.. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:37:18 PM EST
    spring peepers..

    Where did Jim disappear to all of a sudden?

    Parent

    LOL! (none / 0) (#97)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 06:38:24 PM EST
    Jim has a life outside TL (none / 0) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:02:59 PM EST
    See my comment 13 and all the other places where I note we don't know the impact.

    That's not supportive.

    And neither is pointing inaccurate info.

    Have a nice night.

    Parent

    You're defending it (none / 0) (#105)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:21:44 PM EST
    You haven't pointed out any inaccurate info.  When it's pointed out that Republicans (the ones YOU support) are going to vote on it before it's even scored by the CBO, you say nothing.  When you're given the opportunity to say you oppose it, you say nothing.  You suggest it might reduce prices:

    But a national market, if they actually get it done, and plans that fit the individual versus one size fits all should do the trick

     ... with absolutely no evidence.

    That's supportive.

    Parent

    And well it may, (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 04:28:01 PM EST
    Of course it may.

    Of course "should do" is a qualifier.

    Like in "maybe."

    Parent

    Sure - and the Easter Bunny ... (none / 0) (#138)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 05:04:09 PM EST
    ... "may be" in your living room on Easter morning.  But the only people who make statements like that are people who are trying to defend a silly fairy tale about something that "might" happen.

    Play your silly word games and keep trying to pretend you have the slightest credibility.  Everyone else knows the truth about what you are.

    Parent

    Okay. I'm game. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 06:35:48 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "Look, I'm not happy that he didn't go for a single payer plan but try to be factual in your criticisms."

    There is a provision in the GOP proposal which fully repeals Obamacare's current $500,000 cap on corporate deductions for CEO pay, thus enabling insurers to fully deduct the entire amount of financial compensation for their chief executives.

    I'm not making this up. And to put this in perspective, Aetna Chairman & CEO Mark Bertolini was paid $8.26 million in FY 2016, and his compensation was actually as high as $36.36 million in FY 2012.

    Do you think Aetna is due an annual deduction for CEO pay in the range of $8-36 million? Do you believe that U.S. taxpayers should be subsidizing CEO pay in this manner, which -- if this past year's compensation packages are any indication -- would cost the U.S. Treasury over $70 million annually in unrealized revenues?

    And how do you think this provision squares with Rep. Jason Chaffetz's comment that some people will simply have to choose between having a cell phone and health insurance, of which you so heartily approve?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    So you are for controlling salaries? (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:28:11 PM EST
    How Marxist of you.

    BTW - I think all upper management salaries are usually out of control. I just don't know how you control them and remain a free economy.

    Well, we're getting rid of the individual mandate. We're getting rid of those things that people said that they don't want. ... Americans have choices, and they've got to make a choice. So rather than getting that new iPhone that they just love and want to go spend hundreds of dollars on that, maybe they should invest in their own health care."

    Read in context he is saying you don't want to be forced to buy or be fined so....now you have a choice. If you choose to buy a new cell phone and not insurance that is your right as wrong headed as it is. The question is, will the advance tax credit keep that from happening. i.e. Will the cost be so low everyone will jump in?

    I don't know. Neither do you.

    But as soon as I knew that Obamacare was delaying the mandate and reducing it...etc., I knew it would fail.

    And so will this one for the same reasons. If you give some people everything and some people nothing and let some people not pay... it won't work.

    That's one of the reasons I want a Federal sales tax to pay. It brings everyone in. It shuts down the fairness issue.

    It's a shame that the Demos in Congress don't offer an single pay alternate... But they won't because they know they can't get it paid for with a progressive income tax increase.

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#107)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 09:47:49 PM EST
    It's a shame that the Demos in Congress don't offer an single pay alternate... But they won't because they know they can't get it paid for with a progressive income tax increase.

    This is not on Democrats.  They "won't" because the Republicans you voted for control Congress.  They "won't" because the Republican President you voted for has specifically denounced any single payer plan.  The blame rests squarely with you and the politicians you put in office.

    Parent

    The fact that the Repubs control Congress (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:17:42 AM EST
    does not prevent the Demos from trying just as it didn't prevent the Demos from doing a single payer in 2009.

    You can't blame the Repubs when you do nothing.

    Parent

    Actually, it does (none / 0) (#116)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:52:21 AM EST
    You haven't the slightest clue how bills get passed, do you?  As a minority party, Democrats can't get a bill through committee, let alone get it to the floor for a vote.  Your claim - as usual - is a joke.

    The Republicans - and the people like you who put them in office - own Trumpcare and the consequences of Obamacare repeal.  But it's not surprising that you would try to avoid personal responsibility

    Parent

    You didn't accept that excuse in 2009 (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 04:24:20 PM EST
    Why does it work now?

    It doesn't.

    With all the press coverage it would easy to get a single payer plan in front of the public.

    That would open a debate.

    Face it. You just want something to complain about.

    As has been said.

    Lead. Follow. Or get out of the way.

    Parent

    Then quit Following and incessantly (none / 0) (#135)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 04:31:36 PM EST
    regurgitating the talking points of the people who hate single payer the most.

    Or continue to be considered a joke around here.

    Face it, you're a fraud.

    Parent

    jondee, you do not want a debate (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 04:40:49 PM EST
    Obamacare was doomed from the start. Repub care has many of the same problems.

    I have pointed out some, noted a lack of info about others and suggested it can't succeed.

    Parent

    Debating with fraudulent (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 04:49:51 PM EST
    dishonest people is the epitome of wasted time.

    Parent
    Hahahahahaha .... (none / 0) (#139)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 05:08:37 PM EST
    "It would be easy ..."  Of COURSE it would.  All you have to do is convince your fellow Republicans to allow it.

    Pfffftttttt ...

    You're a joke.

    BTW - You don't get to tell anyone what to do.  I'll stand right IN the way along with millions of others who know what a joke you elected in Orange Julius.  Who know that REAL liberals don't put moronic know-nothing Republicans in office.

    Parent

    Unbunch your panties, Jim. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 01:58:51 AM EST
    It's not a cap on salaries. Rather, it caps the amount of executive compensation that an insurer can claim as a tax deduction at $500,000 per individual.

    Do you even understand the difference? I don't believe that you do. In fact, it's pretty obvious from reading your posts in this thread that you really don't know what you're talking about.

    For all your bluster about being for single payer, I knew you weren't serious. And like the loyal little Wehrmacht member you are, you dutifully line up behind the GOP and spout the party line on command.

    It's really a waste of time talking with you.

    Parent

    If it suppresses (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:22:38 AM EST
    by any means, which a cap on the deduction does, then it's a cap.

    And for all your nasties you don't offer any thoughts re a single payer plan.

    Why is that?

    Parent

    Oh, please! (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 11:00:16 AM EST
    As I noted above, Aetna Chairman & CEO Mark Bertolini was paid $8.26 million in FY 2016. We should all be so suppressed.

    You're talking out of your a$$.

    Parent

    That's ridiculous (none / 0) (#122)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 02:01:00 PM EST
    Do you need someone to help you find the definition of income "cap"?  Because you're abusing that word.

    BTW - That tax break in Trumocare amounts to $400 million to all those wealthy executives, with millions of poor, elderly and middle class losing their healthcare, just so you and your fellow Repubs can repeal Obama care.

    Must make you feel so proud.

    Parent

    The trouble is (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 02:25:24 PM EST
    I think, that you use that "educated elite" Yankee dictionary with all them big, fancy words in it, and all Jim has is the official Peckerwood Dictionary and talk radio..

    According to his updated sources, a dang communist "income cap" is any impediment whatsoever to (only) the wealthiest Americans accruing the absolute maximum amount of any form of income.

    Parent

    There is a provision in the GOP proposal (none / 0) (#126)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 02:48:09 PM EST
    There is a provision in the GOP proposal which fully repeals Obamacare's current $500,000 cap on corporate deductions for CEO pay, thus enabling insurers to fully deduct the entire amount of financial compensation for their chief executives.

    I'm not making this up.

    (my bolds)

    Actually, you ARE making that up. Literally. That is NOT what your linked article says, NOR is it factual.

    Clinton already limited any/all corps to expensing a maximum of $1,000,000 of their top 4 execs cash compensation. That exists right now.

    Obama put an additional limit on certain health insurers, that limit is $500,000 and will come into effect in 2018.

    Trump's plan would remove Obama's additional limit on these particular health insurers, resulting in them having the same tax rules as the rest of the US corps.

    Parent

    ... for executive salaries, and not the entire compensation package. Most insurance carrier CEOs derive most on their pay in other forms of remuneration such as performance bonuses, which can routinely and significantly exceed the amount of a health insurer CEO's base salary.

    The estimated value of Aetna's (AET) entire CEO compensation package for FY 2017 is more than $17 million, more than double the $8+ million he received last year. Cigna's (CI) CEO package tops $13 million. And the CEO of UnitedHealth (UNH) alone cleared $66 million last year in salary and other forms of compensation.

    Thomas Barthold, chief of staff for the Joint Committee on Taxation, admitted today to Congressman Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) of the House Ways and Means Committee during an informational briefing of the GOP plan that a company could write off the entirely of its CEO's compensation package as a deduction, not just $1 million from his or her base salary.

    Because this tax break reduces government revenue by some $72 million the first year and per Mr. Barthold, ultimately by over $400 million over the coming decade, it is effectively a cost item for which Congress must account in the federal budget, much as they would a purchase of a new fleet of vehicles for U.S. Border Patrol.

    For example, that $400 million could go a long way toward the development of more federally qualified health centers to serve impoverished rural America, in particularly places where there are often few or no health care providers at all.

    Even so, that particular provision comprises only a small portion of the approximately $600 billion in tax revenue that the federal government is estimated to lose, again per Thomas Barthold of the Joint Committee on Taxation, were Obamacare to be repealed and the GOP's plan put in place. That's because much of that funding is derived from ACA-related taxes which were assessed on wealthier Americans.

    The number of people receiving health care coverage is directly proportional to the amount of money that is spent providing that coverage. At no time did anyone ever say or promise that this could be accomplished on the cheap. Reduce that spending, and you will eventually cause a significant reduction in the number of people covered.

    So, it's really all a matter of your priorities. If you would prefer that the wealthiest 1% of Americans -- who already own 35.4% of the privately held wealth in the United States -- receive yet another tax-related windfall, then you ought to support the GOP's American Health Care Act. But if you believe that health care should be a universal right, rather than a mere privilege or a publicly traded commodity, then you should oppose the Republican plan.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Ah, yes, now you are making sense. (none / 0) (#143)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 06:30:14 PM EST
    Obama lowered not only the max amount of exec cash compensation deductions ins corps could claim, but also disallowed deductions of their merit pay as well.

    I'm actually in agreement with Obama on this, that since, imo, our health insurers are now quasi-governmental entities (because in essence the gvt forces us to buy their products) that the health ins corps should be under more gvt control than other corps who are not quasi-governmental.

    Parent

    because that is what was needed to improve (none / 0) (#127)
    by mm on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 03:11:35 PM EST
    health care in this country.  Do whatever you can to strangle the funding.

    Obama put an additional limit on certain health insurers, that limit is $500,000 and will come into effect in 2018.

     Trump's plan would remove Obama's additional limit on these particular health insurers, resulting in them having the same tax rules as the rest of the US corps.



    Parent
    I think you're thinking a 3 is an 8 (none / 0) (#128)
    by vicndabx on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 03:13:19 PM EST
    as in 2013 vs 2018:

    subsection (m)(6) to Section 162(m) of the Internal Revenue Code

    (6)Special rule for application to certain health insurance providers

    (A)In generalNo deduction shall be allowed under this chapter--

    (i)in the case of applicable individual remuneration which is for any disqualified taxable year beginning after December 31, 2012, and which is attributable to services performed by an applicable individual during such taxable year, to the extent that the amount of such remuneration exceeds $500,000, or

    (ii)in the case of deferred deduction remuneration for any taxable year beginning after December 31, 2012, which is attributable to services performed by an applicable individual during any disqualified taxable year beginning after December 31, 2009, to the extent that the amount of such remuneration exceeds $500,000 reduced (but not below zero) by the sum of--

    (I)the applicable individual remuneration for such disqualified taxable year, plus

    (II)the portion of the deferred deduction remuneration for such services which was taken into account under this clause in a preceding taxable year (or which would have been taken into account under this clause in a preceding taxable year if this clause were applied by substituting "December 31, 2009" for "December 31, 2012" in the matter preceding subclause (I)).

    I did something similar the other day trying to read a VIN off a picture - one of the letters just kept disappearing on me.

    Parent

    No problem, hope you don't owe any money! (none / 0) (#131)
    by vicndabx on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 03:44:54 PM EST
    Ha! (none / 0) (#132)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 03:51:24 PM EST
    No, no, and hell no! (none / 0) (#31)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:49:48 PM EST
    The rich do not deserve better health care than the poor.

    It is comments like these that reinforce the idea that health care should not be subject to profit based capitalism.

    Parent

    If someone wants the best possible health care (none / 0) (#34)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:54:40 PM EST
    and is willing to pay extra for it, they should be able to do that.  

    Parent
    I will pass that on (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:13:18 PM EST
    to my lazy good-for-nothing 82 year old mother. Who lives on Social Security. See as how she just doesn't want to work and all.


    Parent
    So, the rich (none / 0) (#47)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:14:12 PM EST
    get cutting edge chemo and the poor get nothing?

    Yes, money in some people's view equals moral value.

    Parent

    Where did I say the poor get nothing? (none / 0) (#51)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:22:28 PM EST
    Okay, the poor (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:24:51 PM EST
    get inferior care.

    Is that better?

    No, everyone should get the highest quality care available regardless of their financial standing.  No, rich guys get not get the best care, and most everyone else so-so care.

    Parent

    So, if someone wants to pay to have (none / 0) (#56)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:31:42 PM EST
    an expensive private doctor who only sees one patient or very few patients, they shouldn't be able to do it?

    Perhaps you're only talking about what's covered by health insurance? Some private doctors don't take insurance.

    Parent

    Single payer (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 02:31:48 PM EST
    is what I and most progressives want.  Canada style.

    Ideally, I would actually go one step further and adopt full-on socialized medicine a la the UK.

    The goal should be to get away from those with the most money getting the best care.

         

    Parent

    McBain: "So, if someone wants to pay to have an expensive private doctor who only sees one patient or very few patients, they shouldn't be able to do it?"

    ... when the subject is basic health coverage?

    Nobody here is advocating that a Beverly Hills or Park Ave. resident should be denied access to his or her plastic surgeon, if he or she chooses to pay for such services.

    Get real.

    Parent

    Of COURSE you like it (none / 0) (#41)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:07:41 PM EST
    Why would that be a surprise?  Sadly for you, he's already walked back his embarrassing statement.

    Parent
    I'm looking for the section (none / 0) (#9)
    by mm on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:12:38 AM EST
    of the bill where they guarantee all Americans can keep their doctor forever and ever, in everlasting perpetuity.  I'm sure it must be in there someplace since they've been continuously whining about that very point for the past 7 years.

    Welll, it does do (none / 0) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:24:19 AM EST
    away with the dreaded mandate.  Just has a 30 percent surcharge on consumers who do not maintain continuous coverage.  So there is that.

    Parent
    I love (none / 0) (#12)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:34:20 AM EST
    this little gem,
    Insurance companies could get a big tax break. Obamacare allowed insurance companies to deduct only $500,000 of their executives' pay as a business expense. The GOP bill would repeal that limitation, starting in 2018.


    Parent
    "Big" tax break? (none / 0) (#90)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 04:24:02 PM EST
    Not so sold on CNN's analysis here.

    A business's taxable profits = its expenses deducted from its revenues. Unless I am missing something, taxable profits will not change significantly if that limitation was repealed.

    Clinton already limited any business's deduction of exec pay to $1,000,000 of cash compensation.

    Obama changed it to $500,000 for certain health insurance providers (starting in 2018).

    Trump's bill would continue that existing Clinton $1,000,000 limitation, meaning that insurers would be able to deduct $500,000 more per exec under the Clinton/Trump limitations than they would have under Obama's.

    UnitedHealth Group is the largest insurer, it's revenues are about $180,000,000,000 per year.

    $500,000 is 0.0003% of $180,000,000,000.

    I would call that the opposite of "big."

    Parent

    Ok (none / 0) (#91)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 04:33:37 PM EST
    it's not "big", it's just a gratuitous poke in the eye. Just an insignificant (but obvious) drop in the river of wealth flowing upward. It maybe trivial but it sure is symbolic.  

    Parent
    Just so there's no confusion, (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 04:43:51 PM EST
    it does not change exec compensation at all, only how much exec compensation the corp can deduct.

    Parent
    ... on decuctions for executive pay, if adopted and implemented, could cost the U.S. Treasury in excess of $72 million annually in unrealized corporate tax revenues, extrapolating from the analysis of the Institute for Policy Studies, which examined the cap's effect back in 2014. To put that in perspective:

    "This $72 million in savings from limiting pay-related deductions for just 57 executives is the equivalent of the cost of dental insurance for 262,000 Americans or the average annual health insurance plan deductible for 28,000 people." (Emphasis is per the study's authors, and not mine.)

    This provision actually went into effect in 2013. Further, while insurer executive pay levels did not decline in 2013, the share of executive compensation that the ten biggest carriers could claim as deductible declined both immediately and markedly, from 96% in 2012 to 27% the following year. These corporations owed on average an additional $1.3 million in taxes per executive. Again, per the Institute for Policy Studies:

    "One major American health insurer, WellPoint, lowered its 2013 corporate tax bill by more than $1.5 million by accelerating the vesting of executive stock awards, a maneuver that made these awards taxable on December 10, 2012, just days before the Obamacare deductibility reform took effect. Meanwhile, thanks largely to the Affordable Care Act, WellPoint has gained 1.6 million new customers since last year." (Again, emphasis is per the study's authors, and not mine.)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Honestly don't know what your point is. (none / 0) (#118)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 10:44:37 AM EST
    The only thing I get from your numbers is that $72,000,000 is 0.002% (two one-thousanths of a percent) of 2015 Fed tax revenues ($3,248,723,000,000).

    To put that in perspective, the Fed gvt throws out more than that in stale bagels every year.

    iow, the opposite of "big."

    Parent

    Read the Institute's report. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 11:19:34 AM EST
    You're the one who's appears to be enveloped in a fog here. What in the world does its percentage as a portion of all federal tax revenues have to do with anything? $72 million here, $72 million there, and pretty soon we're talking about real money.

    Allowing insurers to write off nearly the entirety of their compensation packages to just 57 executives is yet another example of a wholly unnecessary giveaway to those who neither need it nor deserve it. And given Congressman Chaffetz's insensitive comment about poor people needing to choose between an iPhone and health insurance, it's also an unconscionable one.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Once again, this discussion was about (none / 0) (#124)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 02:31:28 PM EST
    CNN's description as "big." No, I do not consider it big. Even you agree it's not big, as you say it would take multiples of this amount to be "real" money.

    Allowing insurers to write off nearly the entirety of their compensation packages to just 57 executives is yet another example of a wholly unnecessary giveaway to those who neither need it nor deserve it.

    A giveaway? Do tell. To whom?

    Parent

    Please use your head and open your eyes. (none / 0) (#141)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 05:56:28 PM EST
    You're misleading yourself if you think that $72 million in lost annual tax revenue doesn't matter. And as Thomas Barthold of the Joint Committee on Taxation admitted today, the amount of tax revenues lost would conservatively be in the neighborhood of some $400 million over the next decade, were the GOP's American Health Care Act to be passed unamended.

    Further, as a point of clarification, 34% of the $3.25 trillion in total federal tax revenues you cited earlier come from payroll taxes. Those monies are not considered general revenues as are other taxes, but are instead directed toward specific trust funds that support entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. They are not used to fund any other federal government operations or programs. That's what the remaining $2.15 trillion is for.

    Again per the aforementioned Mr. Barthold, repeal of this particular cap on deductions for insurance carriers will enable them to write of the entirety of the compensation packages given to about 57 chief senior executives. Stephen Helmsley, CEO of UnitedHealth (UNH), alone received $66 million in FY 2016.

    So, basically, as I read it, you're apparently okay with the idea of U.S. taxpayers wholly subsidizing, rather than the company shareholders, that sort of self-serving exorbitance which has been taking place in insurers' corporate suites and boardrooms. Is that correct? Because if you're not okay with that, then what exactly ARE you saying to us here?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    See my response above re: ins corps. (none / 0) (#144)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 06:38:01 PM EST
    Fool me once (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:35:10 AM EST
    One of the good things about replacing Obamacare is the ability to purchase insurance across stateliness. IOW, a national market versus a state market which in turn is broken down into Zip Codes within the state.

    What this does is run up the costs in some areas and down in others. And since it is done on such a small group the results are drastically uneven prices.

    (Note to fishcamp, remember the differences in our Medigap insurance.)

    Remember insurance is about spreading risks, and the costs, across large groups of people.

    Now we are being told that this change to a national market can't be done due to some arcane Senate/House rules. But, we are assured it will be added later.

    Watch this one. The Insurance Commissioners across various states don't like it because they lose power. The insurance companies don't like it because it adds competition.

    It is (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:12:17 PM EST
    Remember insurance is about spreading risks, and the costs, across large groups of people.

    Which is precisely why eliminating the mandate will raise costs for everyone.  In the last plan, the CBO score said it would raise premiums by 25% in one year, and double them in 10.

    Parent

    In other words, (none / 0) (#54)
    by NYShooter on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:28:22 PM EST
    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:52:10 PM EST
    Nothing like Obamacare.  No idea what your link claims (it's broken), but premium increases (for everyone) slowed drastically after Obamacare.  Plus, it insured 20 million more people.  I assume your talking about premium increases for people on ACA plans, which are increasing because insurers didn't know how to price them.  The CBO was talking about premium increase acrid the board for everyone, including the 94 of people not on an ACA plan.

    Parent
    Which most people don't actually pay (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by vicndabx on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:54:40 PM EST
    so can we please stop quoting this misleading alternative fact

    In disclosing the 2017 rates, officials played down the impact of higher prices on consumers. They said that more than 8 in 10 consumers will qualify for ACA subsidies that will cushion them from the effects of more-expensive insurance. And they noted that as premiums go up, more Americans will be eligible for the tax credits

    As they have in the past, officials stressed that, if current customers shop around, many will find less-expensive coverage than what they have. With subsidies, more than three-quarters of customers will be able to find a health plan next year for which they pay $100 or less in monthly premiums, according to the new data. People who have ACA coverage tend to qualify for relatively large tax credits because their incomes skew low.

    The steep increase in rates serves broadly to confirm what has become evident piecemeal in recent months: Prompted by a burden of unexpectedly sick Affordable Care Act customers, some insurers are dropping out while many remaining companies are struggling to cover their costs.

    Why people continue to believe this can be done on the cheap and still maintain quality coverage and give folks every choice in the book amazes me.

    Parent

    Then we will be forced into a single payer (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:30:07 PM EST
    system.

    It is an ill wind that blows no good...or something like that

    And we really should wait for the current plan to be scored...

    Like I said, why don't you try and be more accurate.

    Parent

    Single payer is not going to solve the problems (none / 0) (#68)
    by vicndabx on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:56:47 PM EST
    either.  Why people think this will be a panacea is another self delusion.  Sounds good but all it does is move all of the existing costs to a single entity that will have to do all the work of the few entities that remain.

    Parent
    No idea what your first (none / 0) (#69)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:57:15 PM EST
    ... sentence is supposed to mean, apart from the fact that it's some kind of failed attempt at using logic.

    But it's pretty funny that you tell others to be accurate, while defending a plan you know nothing about.  What I will guaranty you is the plan's score - contrary to your candidate's promises - will show it will insure less people, with less coverage and result in premium increases.  But then you'll just dismiss the CBO score and continue to defend it.  Care to bet on it?

    Parent

    Even funnier (none / 0) (#83)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:30:51 PM EST
    And we really should wait for the current plan to be scored...

    You should tell that to the Republicans you poor in office.  They're going to made it up and vote on it before the CBO can score it.  Now you have to ask yourself ... Why would they do that?

    Let me know if you need help with an answer.

    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#15)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 11:59:02 AM EST
    the fool on the hill is a staunch supporter of "States Rights"....until he isn't.

    Parent
    Jim (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:05:43 PM EST
    they instated that buying insurance across state lines here in GA and it is a freaking joke. You want to know why it is a freaking joke? The only kind of insurance that you can have across state lines is junk insurance or extremely expensive indemnity insurance.

    The reason why the insurance companies group by zip code has to do with contractual agreements in PPOs. PPOs cannot be done across like you are suggesting unless you want to travel to Missouri to see a doctor.

    The barrier to competition in insurance is the cost of entry into the insurance market ie the start up costs. It actually would be better to invoke some anti trust laws and break some of the big insurance companies up than hoping against hope they get some competition.  

    Parent

    The insurance we speaking of here (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:23:16 PM EST
    is health care insurance.

    I have no idea why you want to bring up something else except in an attempt to reframe.

    And of course there is no reason why PPOs can't exist any place the contract is written for.

    And thanks for the intro into Business 101 but all the major players have staff/infrastructure in place nationwide. In fact, since a group in Atlanta could handle, say, 3 states, I see a major cost reduction by head count reduction.

    Parent

    Yes, Jim (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 12:33:24 PM EST
    Georgia did it where you can buy insurance, HEALTH insurance, across state lines. It is a joke.

    Yes, PPOs can exist in other places but like I said you would have to travel to another state to visit a doctor.

    You have zero understanding of health insurance. It has nothing to do where the actual insurance company is located and has to do with where the doctors are located.

    The only way to get costs down is to expand Medicaid and actually grouping states together could increase costs for some states that accepted Medicaid with states that did not accept the Medicaid expansion.

    What doctor is going to sign on with a company that has virtually no patients in his local area? Most people go to medical facilities near them.

    Parent

    Say what??? (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:26:13 PM EST
    Yes, PPOs can exist in other places but like I said you would have to travel to another state to visit a doctor.

    No GA, you could have a PPO, say in Memphis, TN and West Memphis, AR and you go to the clinic/doctor/hospital where you lived. Medical providers contract with various insurance companies.One of the key questions you need to ask a prospective insurance companies is a list of medical providers in their net work and make your purchasing decision using that as one of the prime drivers.

    Another key question is costs if you go outside their network. e.g. My current company has $0 copay for a primary care doctor visit in network, $35 out,

    I suspect you are thinking of HMOs. And yes, if you joined a HMO where you don't live and where it has no facilities then you would need to travel to get to their cover facilities.

    Somehow I don't see you doing that. But hey! Its your choice.


    Parent

    You have (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:40:27 PM EST
    zero understanding of how all this works. The insurance companies contract with doctors by area because 1. most of their patients are in that same area.

    What you are talking about already happens and has been going on for decades. People that live in SC outside of Augusta GA go to Augusta GA to see the doctor. The insurance companies set up networks by the closest city.

    No, I am not thinking of HMOs. What I am talking about is how selling insurance across state lines doesn't do jack. You apparently don't know how insurance has been operating for decades.

    Parent

    That's what I said (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 08:57:32 PM EST
    No GA, you could have a PPO, say in Memphis, TN and West Memphis, AR and you go to the clinic/doctor/hospital where you lived. Medical providers contract with various insurance companies.

    A PPO merely means that you can go to the service point that you desire that has contracted with your insurance company irrespective of location. \

    Typically HMO's are located within a specific area and you aren't covered outside. It is less flexible than a PPO and is often less expensive.

    Parent

    No, Jim (none / 0) (#114)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:43:45 AM EST
    you still don't understand. PPO networks are actually very similar to HMO networks since you only seem to understand HMOs. Generally speaking with PPOs you can go out of network but it will cost you an arm and a leg to do so. When you go out of network there is no agreement between the insurance company and that doctor and hospital. So in many ways you are on your own.

    And none of that is in anyway related to "selling insurance across state lines" What selling insurance across state lines means that you can buy a policy in Wisconsin. A PPO in Wisconsin would only have preferred providers in Wisconsin. None of your local doctors would be on that PPO. You would be out of network for every doctor and hospital you visited. So no one would buy a PPO in another state. All that gets back to my point with regards to what would be sold "across state lines" and that is junk insurance and the most expensive indemnity insurance. There is a reason why it was a failure here in GA.

    Parent

    No, it is not about (none / 0) (#37)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    state Insurance Commissioners just loving their own power.

    It is about not allowing an out of state carrier to avoid in state regulations.  California provides protections for its insureds--those protections should not be avoided by out of state carriers.

    "Across state lines" is code for allowing insurance carriers to avoid consumer protections and expenses they do not like.

    Parent

    I always enjoy watching a "yankee" (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:10:23 PM EST
    It is about not allowing an out of state carrier to avoid in state regulations.

    calling for states's rights.

    And you are assuming that the out of state insurer would not have to follow state rules/regs.

    Why is everything codes and dig whistles to you?

    Parent

    It happens it other industries. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:20:26 PM EST
    One time almost every credit card company operated or incorporated (I confess to not knowing the corporate details) in South Dakota. Why? Lax rules for lending and regulation on credit cards. State regulatory agencies have no enforcement authority in the scenario you present or across state lines. If you think corporations will just comply because it is the right thing to do, you have become senile and possibly require care for dementia. Good luck with getting that under this administration's plan.

    Parent
    The idea (none / 0) (#50)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:22:09 PM EST
    is to allow carriers to avoid in state regulation.

    You actually implied that by stating that evil, power hungry in-state Insurance Commissioners oppose out of state carriers because they will lose power.  They would only lose power if the out of state carrier were not subject to in-state regulation.  That is the whole point--avoiding in state regulations.

    Parent

    I am not a Yankee, JImbo (none / 0) (#57)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 01:33:53 PM EST
    Both sides of my family are from the South.  For many generations.

    Your views were best described by Mammy in Gone with the Wind.  

    Parent

    It's not about where you were born. (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:29:58 AM EST
    It's about being you.

    You're a yankee.

    lol

    Parent

    And apparently (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 07:45:11 AM EST
    you are a neo confederate. They're the only ones that care about the Yankee crap anymore. Jim, I guess you don't remember the Yankees won.

    Parent
    So "Yankee" has nothing ... (none / 0) (#117)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 08:00:20 AM EST
    ... to do with being a northerner.  Guess it means educated, articulate, factual, unprejudiced, etc., etc.  You're right ... Most of us here are "Yankees".  Some are not.

    Parent
    Sometimes it's better not to have health insurance (none / 0) (#88)
    by McBain on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 03:54:11 PM EST
    Our system is so strange.  A few years ago I ended up in an emergency room.  Since my health coverage has a high deductible I asked how much my bill was going to be for 5 hours in the ER and a few  tests.  They didn't know for sure but estimated around $10,000

    I asked what would the bill be if I didn't use insurance and they offered me a a 75% discount. I decided to take that.  When the bill finally showed up I owed around $2,000 (two separate bills btw... one for the hospital, the other for the doctor).  The hospital let me pay it off in low monthly installments ($50) with no interest. Had I been poor and without insurance I could have qualified for even more assistance.... up to not having to pay at all.  

    It seems like a big game being is played between insurance companies and healthcare providers. It also seems that poor people can still get decent care even without any coverage.  I understand why many opt not to have it.

    No doubt (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 04:37:12 PM EST
    ... many will choose not to have insurance or to get plans with high deductibles, then will go to the doctor/hospital when they get sick or injured.  The costs of their "discounted" care will then written off by the hospital and be passed along to the rest of us in the form of higher prices and premiums.  The saddest pat, however is that some of those very same people will then turn around and support ridiculous comments like those made by Chaffetz, without realizing that they're part of that group.

    Parent
    I wonder if (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 06:13:24 PM EST
    the poor and uninsured really can get chemo.

    ER treatment is one thing.

    I do know conservatives often like to assert that the poor can get treatment already.

    Parent

    No, actually (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 06:31:27 PM EST
    they can't. If they don't have some sort of coverage basically they are sent home to die.

    Yes, they can get ER treatment but that's about it.

    Parent

    45,000 deaths a year (none / 0) (#102)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 08:51:12 PM EST
    ... before Obamacare, according to a Harvard study.

    Parent
    My late cousin had to fight with ... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 08, 2017 at 06:16:27 PM EST
    ... her carrier over coverage of her bone marrow and stem cell transplants while she was battling leukemia. And since she was a R.N. who worked for years at Scripps Medical Center in Carlsbad, CA, she supposedly had a very good health plan.

    But it seems that the carrier considered such transplants an "experimental" procedure, even though it's not an uncommon one for treatment of leukemia patients, and it refused to pay for it. Her own employer ultimately had to go to bat for her. By the time the procedure was finally approved by the carrier, over precious five months had already passed.

    Ultimately, the transplant didn't successfully take hold, and my cousin passed away in Nov. 2015. I know it's not fair, but I really can't help but wonder if that five-plus months of ridiculous bureaucratic haggling didn't somehow render her chances for survivial further problematic. It most certainly didn't help, either medically or psychologically. Although she kept up a brave front, having been very close to her, I knew from talking with her that she was upset and disappointed by the denial and delay.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Health care (none / 0) (#99)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 07, 2017 at 07:11:30 PM EST
    as Schrödinger's cat , according to tRump
    It's a complicated process, but actually it's very simple: It's called good health care.


    Getting interesting (none / 0) (#147)
    by Yman on Thu Mar 09, 2017 at 12:36:15 PM EST
    Sen. Tom Cotton just told his fellow Republicans in the House to slow down, start over and get it right, not just get it done fast.