Death Toll Tops 80 in Bastille Day Attack in Nice

More than 80 are dead in last night's terror attack in Nice, France where crowds of people were watching fireworks and celebrating Bastille Day.

The driver of the truck, a French-Tunisian binational, was killed by police. ISIS supporters on Telegram are celebrating and promoting lone wolf attacks. Other cities are mentioned as potential targets, including Berlin and Toronto. I refuse to get a Telegram account because it insists on providing a phone number, but Journalist Tam Hussein's twitter feed has a roundup with graphics. As of now, there is no official ISIS statement.

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    Omama's comment was surprising. (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:43:29 AM EST
    No call for truck control or common sense truck safety measures. Perhaps he is coming around to the notion that we are facing a determined ideology (that will not be named) rather than the unfortunate misuse of inanimate objects.

    Actually we have more laws regulating trucks than (none / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:34:42 PM EST
    we do guns, since truck advocates have been lax in getting a constitutional amendment protecting their rights, and our response to truck bomb attacks like the Marine barracks in Lebanon and Oklahoma City was to put concrete barriers around many locations, making a lot harder to get a truck anywhere near. Of course that is impossible to do in places trucks are supposed to be allowed.  But I see people even on this thread are questioning that there were enough safety precautions in place to keep traffic off the road with all the pedestrians there.

    I got carried away...what was your point again?


    Anyone can buy a truck (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:31:57 PM EST
    No background check, no license required, no minimum age.

    There may well be more laws regarding trucks in general,  but nary a smidgeon regarding who may purchase or own a truck.  


    You may not need a license to buy one but you need (none / 0) (#30)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:33:00 PM EST
    a special license to operate a truck that size. And regular safety checks, etc. There is more scrutiny of truck owner/operators on that class of vehicle than there will ever be on gun owner/operators, at least in this country.

    Once you have the truck (none / 0) (#55)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 06:12:51 AM EST
    You need a license to legally opertate it.  Those intent on mass murder will care not a fig about mere license requirements.

    Nope (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:46:32 PM EST
    anyone cannot buy a truck at least here in GA. You must have a license and you have to be 18. No dealership in their right mind would sell somebody a truck without a license for liability reasons.

    Try again (none / 0) (#56)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 06:17:51 AM EST

    Name one corporation that has a license to operate a truck.  Dealership policy is hardly uniform across the country. This may come as a surprise, but dealerships are not the sole truck sellers in this country.

    Moving (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 07:35:41 AM EST
    the goal posts once again? This was an individual with a truck and corporations even if they don't need a license to buy a truck better have insurance on the truck and their driver better have a license. Major fail on your part once again.

    And you (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:47:55 PM EST
    have to have insurance on the car before it leaves the lot. Your attempted analogy is a complete and utter fail.

    Craigslist (none / 0) (#60)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 08:58:44 AM EST
    Auto Trader

    Other online ads





    There are lots of ways to obtain vehicles that don't involve details.


    Yes (none / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 09:10:01 AM EST
    but again you could be held personally liable in those situations unlike with guns.

    So you steal a gun (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 02:21:18 PM EST
    and you're not liable?

    The truck was rented (none / 0) (#63)
    by Green26 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 10:52:30 AM EST
    "The truck, a 19-ton refrigeration vehicle rented by the assailant on Monday,...."

    "Contrary to initial reports from Nice municipal officials that the truck was full of weapons and explosives, its cargo hold contained a bicycle and eight empty pallets. The cab was said to contain an automatic 7.65-millimeter pistol, two fake assault rifles, a nonfunctioning grenade, and a cellphone and unspecified documents that the police were analyzing."

    NY Times Article.


    More truck info (none / 0) (#64)
    by Green26 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 10:58:06 AM EST
    "The truck was rented on Monday and was supposed to have been returned Wednesday, Molins said, without saying who rented it. Surveillance video shows that about two hours before the attack Thursday, Bouhlel rode a bicycle to pick up the truck east of the city, the prosecutor said."

    CNN article.

    love you and all but (none / 0) (#72)
    by linea on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 06:43:50 PM EST
    this is really really a bad snarc.


    "A goift from allah" (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Redbrow on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 04:33:12 AM EST
    According to Erdogan.

    This coup could not have worked out better for Erdogan if he orchestrated it  himself.

    There is a rumor (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 07:47:50 AM EST
    That he did just that.

    Mao did it; Stalin did it (none / 0) (#61)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 09:00:33 AM EST
    seed a small insurrection to flush out the sympathisers

    Europe is in a big (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 06:36:05 PM EST
    Heap of trouble

    Horror as 15 people are attacked by 17-year-old Afghan refugee wielding an AXE and shouting 'Allahu Akbar' in German train rampage before police shot him dead as he fled the scene
    Attacker went on the rampage on a train near Wurzburg targeting 15 people
    Three critically injured after an attack with 'cutting and stabbing weapons'
    A 17-year-old Afghan refugee has since been shot dead by armed police
    Teenager shouted 'Allahu Akbar' in 'probable' Islamist attack, officials say

    let me fix that for you (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 07:14:52 PM EST
    "Teenager Shouted [omitted] in Probable [omitted]"

    When you use tinyurls (none / 0) (#92)
    by Nemi on Tue Jul 19, 2016 at 06:09:57 AM EST
    could you please mention what site you are linking to? I for one don't want to give Daily Mail traffic. Or try this for making 'proper' links:

    [place url of the site you want to link to]
    [place words you chose to highlight]

    Now put it all in one line. And if at first you don't succeed, try and try and try again.

    About the -- yet again -- tragic incident in Germany, Der Spiegel reports

    Officials have not yet determined whether there are Islamist links to the attack. [Bavarian Interior Minister Joachim] Hermann said he did not want to "participate in any speculation." The motive and background of the crime are still being investigated. A witness claimed that the perpetrator called out the words "Allahu akbar," or "God is great," during the attack. Police shot the perpetrator as he fled.


    Hermann said all information gathered so far indicates the perpetrator had been acting on his own.

    [Emphasis mine]


    I'm at the point of questioning the benefit of (4.57 / 7) (#3)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:26:04 AM EST
    round the clock news coverage. I  don't want victims to be forgotten, but if this is indeed an ISIS involved attack, it plays right into their hand to have it on every TV.  Not to mention the attention by politicians.  I think once the basic event is described there needs to be a halt until new facts emerge. But then what would news channels bloviate about for 24 hours?

    These type of horrific attacks are unjustifiable (2.00 / 2) (#2)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:37:35 AM EST
    on any level, but we on the West should also own up to the fact that we contributed to the normalization of the tactic of the intentional targetting civilians in WWII..

    Since that precedent, any supporter of ISIL or related groups can always say "We're so terrible? So monsterous? Well, YOU people did it too. Don't pretend you didn't."

    Nice try at (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:11:06 AM EST
    moral equivalency but it doesn't work and doesn't stop the killing.

    As for "you did it," civilians have always made out poorly during war. Read up on the forced conversions, beheadings, slave taking during Mohammed's campaigns and the wars that followed as Islam was expanded by the sword.

    And then there was 9/11.


    And For Balance (3.50 / 2) (#5)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:20:59 AM EST
    Nice (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:39:35 AM EST
    You have to go back centuries to see how Christianity WAS practiced.

    Abdul: "You have to go back centuries to see how Christianity WAS practiced."

    Two words: "Sarajevo" and "Srebrenica."

    20 years ago, tens of thousands of Bosnian Muslims were deliberately targeted and killed by Christians for no reason other than their religion. And Muslims weren't responsible for the calculated slaughter of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust during the Second World War. If you'd like a more recent example of Christian terrorism in our own country, you need look no further than the Sikh Temple massacre in suburban Milwaukee on Aug. 5, 2012.

    Religious fundamentalism is a natural byproduct of willful fear and ignorance, and has long been a primary source of friction and conflict in this world. And since no one single faith is immune from its folly, none should therefore be singled out as either more guilty than the others or more holier than thou.



    And the world condemned (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:28:12 PM EST
    their actions and sent military, including the US, to stop the killings generated by this ancient war.

    Where has this been done with ISIS?


    Well, gosh, Jim, I don't know. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:39:01 PM EST
    Why don't you ask an expert?

    "A man who has appeared on Fox News as a guest "terrorism analyst" was sentenced to 33 months in prison on Friday on charges that he fraudulently claimed to have been a CIA agent for decades, U.S. prosecutors said. Wayne Simmons, 62, of Annapolis, Maryland, was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a statement. 'Wayne Simmons is a fraud. Simmons has no military or intelligence background, or any skills relevant to the positions he attained through his fraud,' said Dana Boente, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia."

    Oh, dear! Since it looks like Mr. Simmons isn't going to be available anytime soon, let's consult the next best thing, shall we?

    "Soon after a truck plowed through Bastille Day revelers in Nice, France, Thursday night and killed over 80 people, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich called for strict measures to screen Muslims in the United States. 'Let me be as blunt and direct as I can be. Western civilization is in a war. We should frankly test every person here who is of a Muslim background, and if they believe in Sharia, they should be deported,' Gingrich, who is advising presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump's campaign, said. 'Sharia is incompatible with Western civilization. Modern Muslims who have given up Sharia, glad to have them as citizens. Perfectly happy to have them next door."

    Here's one thing I DO know: D!ck-swinging does not constitute "expertise" in this or any other field, save possibly for certain forms of adult entertainment that's designed for a particular audience with select and discriminating tastes -- you know, the audience that watches Fox News.

    An East St. Louis Toodle-oo to you, sir.


    Huh? A bit confused are you? (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:40:29 PM EST
    Or are you really claiming that we didn't intercede to stop the killing??

    But, since you have changed the subject, tell me why  this guy lasted for ages??? I mean, according to Obama and folks like you, we can vet Muslim refugees in a heartbeat even though there is no paper on them.

    As for Newt, he is exactly right. There's a war going on.

    Let me know when you want to defend the country.


    So you're going to impugn others' patriotism? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 06:39:31 PM EST
    Why don't you wrap yourself tightly in Old Glory, and take a long walk off a short pier while singing "The Star-Spangled Banner"?

    Seems like a simple question (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 09:31:09 AM EST
    Newt says, and I agree, that we are at war.

    You disagree.

    That being the case let me know when you want to defend the country.


    You can tell a lot about a man (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:25:39 PM EST
    by the people he looks up to..

    Newt "Deferment" Gingrich has built a whole career on urging others to defend the country..and to defend marital fidelity..and truth telling..and Christian values..

    In other words, his actions tell us he doesn't believe what he says himself.

    Not the best person to use as an authoritative source.


    Of course (none / 0) (#23)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:42:21 PM EST
    The Pope's call for world Catholics to support that ethnic cleansing makes your point. The head of the Church of England did the same. That plus the forced conversions. If only I remembered.  

    "The essence of immorality is the tendency to make an exception of myself."
    - Jane Addams, humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize laureate (1860-1935)

    You made a blanket claim about Christianity that was very easily refutable, and I did so. That you chose to respond in such a silly and entirely defensive manner only further underscores my original point about religious fundamentalism, which should always be confronted and marginalized -- regardless of its faith-based source.

    Good day.


    And let you can let us know (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:42:53 PM EST
    when you come to understand the difference between radical islam and christianity.

    Well, Jim, you certainly know ... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:09:50 PM EST
    ... little or nothing about either Christianity or Islam. Jeralyn's admonished you time and again for using these thread to bash and slur Muslims, not that you pay any heed to her or anyone else in that regard.

    And since I'm obviously talking to someone who's apparently stunted emotionally in a perpetually adolescent state, I'll just conclude this discussion on my part by saying that I stand by what I wrote, and I'm not further inclined to talk any more about such matters with either children or their adult-aged emotional equivalents thereof.

    Have a nice evening.


    well Donald, you certainly know (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 08:31:13 AM EST
    how to make things up.

    And I see a few facts bother you so you decide to play hall monitor and then leave because you have no answer.


    You are the very last person in the world ... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 06:02:19 PM EST
    ... to be lecturing anyone on the corresponding subjects of faith and religion, given that your painfully obvious bigotry toward the followers of Islam -- amongst many others who don't look, think and act just like you -- completely belies whatever claims you might stake to having the ear of The Almighty. Nor do you have any business belittling anybody here, just because they don't happen to agree with the Gospel According to PPJ.

    Your misguided sense of moral superiority epitomizes what my late grandmother used to say about people who'd wear their religion so prominently on the sleeves, because there's no room for true faith in their hearts. You told jondee yesterday to read the New Testament. Well, perhaps you should heed own condescending advice and do so yourself, starting with the Holy Gospels and most specifically, Matthew 5:38-48.

    Have a good day.


    You have no answer (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 12:06:44 PM EST
    so you smear by calling people who disagree with you a bigot.

    Not unexpected but this time you use your grandmother as a source rather than an aunt or uncle.

    This technique is known as the "untouchable source" strategy.

    In this case it is using family as a source will prevent the person attacked from responding because they don't want family involved.

    It is similar to quoting a snippet from some "leader" or declaring "every one knows that..."

    My comments are based on facts.


    Logical fallacies (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 05:20:55 PM EST
    A logical fallacy is, roughly speaking, an error of reasoning. When someone adopts a position, or tries to persuade someone else to adopt a position, based on a bad piece of reasoning, they commit a fallacy. I say "roughly speaking" because this definition has a few problems, the most important of which are outlined below. Some logical fallacies are more common than others, and so have been named and defined. When people speak of logical fallacies they often mean to refer to this collection of well-known errors of reasoning, rather than to fallacies in the broader, more technical sense given above.

    My comments are based on facts

    Arguments consist of premises, inferences, and conclusions. Arguments containing bad inferences, i.e. inferences where the premises don't give adequate support for the conclusion drawn, can certainly be called fallacious. What is less clear is whether arguments containing false premises but which are otherwise fine should be called fallacious.
    If a fallacy is an error of reasoning, then strictly speaking such arguments are not fallacious; their reasoning, their logic, is sound. However, many of the traditional fallacies are of just this kind. It's therefore best to define fallacy in a way that includes them; this site will therefore use the word fallacy in a broad sense, including both formal and informal fallacies, and both logical and factual errors.

    As I wrote (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 08:55:23 AM EST
    You have nothing to often beyond disagreeing.

    No examples. Nothing.

    On the other hand, a Peer Poll shows...


    Not (2.00 / 1) (#8)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:45:31 AM EST
    so far back, google Army of God.

    The Arny of God has (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:02:16 AM EST
    attacked who? When did they kill 3000+ in NYC?

    When did they torch off a bomb in Boston?

    When did they burn children to death?

    When did they stone gays???

    Which nation states support them?

    Your false analogy looks silly.

    Why do you support ISIS by trying to say they are the same??????

    I mean, I know you know better. At least I hope you do.


    When did they fire bomb Tokyo? (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:28:51 PM EST
    when did they ever sit at home in their armchairs and pleasure themselves thinking about Churchill and Ariel Sharon, the way Jim does.

    When we defeated (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:43:11 PM EST
    Japan the new constitution gave women rights.

    OTOH radical islam supports Honor Killings.


    Jim, You Are the One Who Brought Up Mohammed (none / 0) (#10)
    by RickyJim on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:13:54 AM EST
    As for "you did it," civilians have always made out poorly during war. Read up on the forced conversions, beheadings, slave taking during Mohammed's campaigns and the wars that followed as Islam was expanded by the sword.

    My point is that the foundations of Islam are not inherently more violent than other religions.  Our problem with the radical element has to do more with contemporary social factors rather than the theology.  


    Given that it is Christianity you are (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:38:15 PM EST
    speaking of....

    The birth, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension fulfilled the Old Testament.

    The foundation of the Christianity is love and peace.

    OTOH Islam has not been reformed. And there is "something" there that births these radicals.  

    And yes, the inter sect wars were terrible... The Inquisition was terrible...But that was hundreds of years ago.

    Nice was last night.


    How does believing in a pagan myth (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:05:56 PM EST
    about a father god who tortures and murders his own son psychologically prepare anyone to value peace and disdain brutality?

    Answer: it doesn't. Not at all.


    Try reading the New Testament (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:25:40 PM EST
    Call (none / 0) (#29)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:30:26 PM EST
    me an all, or even most Christians start acting as instructed by that book.

    Or you could just skip over (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:51:16 PM EST
    all the pagan human sacrifice,  Armageddon, and pie-in-the-sky "heavanly reward" jazz and just read the Stoics.

    I agree that MOST don't follow all (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:27:04 PM EST
    I agree that many don't follow most.

    But many do follow some.

    And that's the point. Christianity is for sinners, not for saints.

    And the bigger and more important point is that it doesn't teach that people who leave should be killed or who cheat on their spouses should be stone or that gays should stoned.

    It teaches to condemn the sin and love the sinner.

    Beyond that Islam is much more structured than Christianity. It provides very detailed instructions on almost everything.


    Luckily for mankind (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:40:39 PM EST
    Christianity and Islam aren't the only two thought systems available to people.

    It's a gaggle! (none / 0) (#77)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 05:27:41 PM EST
    Emphasis on gag

    Moral equivalency is a term (2.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:37:45 PM EST
    recently introduced into the vernacular by neocons who expect some sort of reward for figuring out that murder is worse than rape.

    Moral equivalence (none / 0) (#25)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    Is just moral relativism which has een arounf for thousands of years.

    Yes Morticia (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 11:33:35 AM EST
    we in the West have never intentionally killed thousands of innocent children without there being a very good reason for it.

    Just keep telling yourself that.

    The fact is that with the acceptance of total war as a  viable strategy in the twentieth century, mankind crossed a moral Rubicon that never should've been crossed.


    unjustifiable? (none / 0) (#53)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 02:01:34 AM EST
    & yet you have no trouble coming up with this "precedent" as a justification

    Justification is your word not mine (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 12:58:45 PM EST
    though that sort of twisting of others words is standard operating procedure for ideologues everywhere, particularly of the neocon variety, so I'm not at all surprised.

    What happened in Nice was the most unjust action that humanity is capable of, but we're on an extremely high horse here in this country that our past actions in no way warrant.


    oh please (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 02:45:04 PM EST
    why don't you just cut to the chase & blame the whole situation on the <cough> "Zionists"?

    What the.. (none / 0) (#80)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 05:47:45 AM EST
    All I can say is, thank YHVH that all neocons aren't Jews and that their most devastatingly incisive critics are..

    But if you're going to insist on trotting out that particular debate sabotaging ruse, try it with someone who can't see through it as easily as I can.


    jondee on the West in WWII? (none / 0) (#78)
    by JanaM on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 08:14:13 PM EST
    . . . we on the West should also own up to the fact that we contributed to the normalization of the tactic of the intentional targetting civilians in WWII..

    jondee, who are you referring to? The Nazis?


    I believe that jondee would be referring (none / 0) (#79)
    by Peter G on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 08:29:57 PM EST
    to the extensive and deliberate bombing of German cities, particularly by the British, during WWII, with no real effort to spare civilians; indeed, there is substantial evidence that Churchill sought to demoralize the whole German population by destroying their homes, industry and food supplies.

    "What?! Over?! Did you say 'over'?" (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 20, 2016 at 11:51:36 AM EST
    "Nothing is over until we decide it is. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

    Unfortunately, the British had adopted ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 06:02:39 PM EST
    ... that particular tactic in direct response to the German Luftwaffe's own "Blitz" of London and other British cities during the fall of 1940 and winter of 1941. Some 43,000 British civilians were killed in these devastating attacks, which were carried out on the direct orders of Adolf Hitler himself, and Die Terrorangriffen ("Terror Attacks") were conducted with the deliberate intent of undermining British morale. The entire center of Coventry was leveled in one such attack on the night of November 14-15, 1940.

    Ironically, the Blitz had the exact opposite effect on that morale, and the British populace only grew more determined and intransigent in their opposition to Hitler and his forces with each successive raid. Rather than drive a wedge between His Majesty's government and the country at large, the German air raids instead drove everyone together in common cause and purpose, which was particularly underscored on when Buckingham Palace itself was targeted and bombed on nine different occasions.

    Against the advice of his prime minister Winston Churchill, King George VI and his consort Queen Elizabeth had refused to leave London. They instead often joined their subjects in their nightly treks down to London's subway tunnels to take shelter during the worst raids, and each following day the royal couple would then tour those areas of the city which had been targeted the night before to meet with and comfort the survivors, and direct aid to where it was most needed.

    When questioned by the media after Buckingham Palace was substantially damaged, the Queen famously said, "I can now look the East End in the face," a remark which forever endeared her to British hearts. London's East End had been subjected to horrific incendiary bomb attacks, and much of it was burned. The personal decision by the King And Queen to stay with Londoners during the Blitz, so that they would all share and endure its dangers together, arguably did more to shore up British morale during those dark days of 1940-41 than any other single act of defiance to the German assault.

    But most importantly, the Blitz on their cities by the Luftwaffe provided the British with the emotional incentive to respond in kind against German civilians later in the war, and they ultimately did so with much greater ferocity. The mass incendiary bombing of Hamburg by some 1,200 aircraft of RAF Bomber Command over a three-night period in May 1943 destroyed much of that city and killed over 45,000 civilians alone, which was more than was incurred by the British populace throughout the U.K. during the entirety of the Blitz.

    As lamentable as these deliberate Allied air attacks on civilian targets were, it's also really important to discuss such raids not with today's moral compasses, but rather in light of their proper historical context. For as Prime Minister Churchill himself had promised in a December 1940 speech to Parliament at the height of the Blitz, after a Luftwaffe raid had destroyed the House of Commons, "They have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind."

    Effectively, while the Germans threw the first punches which started the Second World War, the British (with their American and Russian allies) would throw the last ones to end it. It is always the height of folly to think that man can somehow dictate and control the course of subsequent events, once his decision to unleash the dogs of war has been reached. And it is to our collective discredit and eternal dishonor that we keep believing our next experience will somehow be different from our last.



    I am hardly a historian, but the timeline (none / 0) (#86)
    by Peter G on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 10:13:39 PM EST
    does not appear to support your assertion that the British bombing of Germany, which began in May 1940, was only in response to the Blitz.

    Years before WWII (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 10:30:56 PM EST
    Churchill recommended spreading "a healthy terror" amongst Indian, African, and Afghani villagers with bombs and poison gas.

    Whether the Germans or the British "did it first", the idea had certainly been in the air for awhile..

    And then of course the Germans bombed Guernica during the Spanish Civil War..


    With apologies to Guernica (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 10:36:23 PM EST
    In Sandyhook the dead children
    Were laid out in order upon the sidewalk,
    In their white starched dresses,
    In their pitiful white dresses.
    On their foreheads and breasts
    Are the little holes where death came in
    As thunder, while they were playing
    Their important summer games.
    Do not weep for them, madre.
    They are gone forever, the little ones,
    Straight to heaven to the saints,
    and God will fill the bullet-holes with candy.

    Marpa (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 11:52:07 PM EST
    was weeping inconsolably because his son had died and a student said "What are you crying about? You know it's all illusion" And Marpa said "Yes, but the death of a child is the greatest illusion of all"

    Correction: the phrase Churchill used (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 10:59:12 PM EST
    was "a lively terror".

    Zeppelins with bombs... (none / 0) (#90)
    by desertswine on Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 11:00:56 PM EST
    Bombs were first dropped on Britain during World War I, when Germany sent zeppelins against London and other cities, killing hundreds. Britain launched its own raids in return.

    The first time a city was bombed from the air was in 1849, some fifty years before the Wright brothers made their pioneering flight on a North Carolina beach. Forces from the Austrian Empire were besieging Venice, at that time seeking to liberate itself from Austrian rule. The Austrians attached explosives to unmanned balloons and released them. After a certain interval the bombs were to drop on the city. Their attempt failed: the bombs did little damage, with some even landing on friendly troops. But the attack showed how aerial bombing altered the calculus of warfare, because it could embroil civilian populations even if they were far behind the front lines. A



    Terrorist suspect named Mohamed (none / 0) (#1)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:31:03 AM EST
    Attacker named in French media as 31-year-old Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel

    Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel - a 31-year-old career criminal who was born in Tunisia before moving to France - has been named as the Nice truck attack suspect by local news website Nice-Matin.

    Spam Cleanse (none / 0) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:26:17 AM EST

    I am feeling a little neglected that FL is (none / 0) (#13)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:30:07 AM EST
    not destined to sink into the sea in early Sept '16 along with NY and CA!

    That is Nothing (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Jane in CA on Sun Jul 17, 2016 at 02:05:09 AM EST
    to my surprise to learn that California is in the Eastern United States. Who knew? Well, other than Tats :)

    Site violatorr (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:40:31 AM EST

    it's true (none / 0) (#26)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:59:31 PM EST
    that the new British PM does want the earliest possible Brexit

    British islands of GB . . .  sink into the sea in the second half of September, 2016.

    "Among the dead, officials said" (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:01:25 PM EST
    Among the dead, officials said, were 10 children as well as three Germans, two Americans, Moroccans and Armenians, and one person each from Russia, Switzerland and Ukraine. Two Scots were listed as missing.

    OT: Twitter blowing up (none / 0) (#34)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:35:56 PM EST
    over apparent military coup in Turkey

    Anybody know which way the military (none / 0) (#37)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:41:12 PM EST
    swings - secular or religionista?

    Highly (none / 0) (#38)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:42:20 PM EST
    secular by most accounts.

    The Turkish military has always been secular. (none / 0) (#40)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:18:57 PM EST
    I always figured that it was only a matter of time before President Tayyip Erdogan and the country's Islamic politicians provoked some of the generals into acting against them. Nor would I be surprised if the uprising ends up enjoying popular support. Turkey may be considered by many to be a Middle Eastern country, but Istanbul -- it's largest city -- is in Europe, and a decided majority of the country's populace desires to be Euro-centric.

    As it presently stands at 6:00 p.m. EDT, the rebels claim to have taken power, but Prime Minister Binali Yildirim and his government are saying otherwise. From what I've seen so far on BBC and France 24, the rebels may have seized control of Istanbul itself, but while there are reports of military jets and helicopters over the capital of Ankara, which is 280 miles southeast of Istanbul in central Turkey, it's not clear at all who's in control down there.

    We'll likely know in a few hours which side prevails. Because there have been several recent purges of the senior military officials by President Erdogan, who replaced them with men of his own choosing, it's presently unclear as to whether the entire Turkish military hierarchy is acting in concert against Erdogan, or a merely a disgruntled faction.



    Via Twitter from about three hours ago, ... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:29:15 PM EST
    ... here's the scene from a central Ankara hotel facing toward government buildings, where a fighter jet swoops down and flies low overhead.

    ... stationed at Incirlik Air Force Base in Turkey to immediately stand down and remain sheltered in place for the time being, until more is known about what's going on inside Turkey.

    There are rumors that President Erdogan has actually fled the country, is presently airborne and has asked Germany for asylum. According to sources, that request has been denied, and he's now asking the Netherlands for permission to land.

    As I learn anything new, I'll post.


    Erdogan: flying Dutchman, lol (none / 0) (#43)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:43:28 PM EST
    It looks like for all practical purposes, ... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:15:09 PM EST
    ... the coup against President Erdogan has failed. Civilian defiance in Istanbul overwhelmed the dissident army units, and hundreds of photos are now circulating of scores of civilians and police seizing rebel tanks and armored personnel carriers, and disarming rebel soldiers and holding them in custody.  

    Somehow (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:52:29 PM EST
    Dallas seems long ago.

    Frencn govt covered up Bataclan torture (none / 0) (#49)
    by pitachips on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:16:59 PM EST

    rebels (none / 0) (#52)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 12:55:03 AM EST
    who took over CNN are reported to have been arrested by police & . . . journalists, if you can believe that in Erdogan's Turkey


    really? (none / 0) (#69)
    by linea on Sat Jul 16, 2016 at 03:10:01 PM EST
    it's my fault [islamic moslem] terrorists are murdering people? because christains one thousand years ago were barbaric too? or because "the West" targeted civilians in ww2? i dont consider any religion sacrosant and i wont apologize or self-flagellate for murderers.

    wonderful lesson to teach your children by the way. it's your fault when the bully shoves you, pulls your hair, and spits on you.