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Orlando: Another Lone or Looney American Wolf

I have no patience with the moronic comments of Donald Trump.

The Orlando attacker, Omar Mateen, was born in New York -- he's an American. Nonetheless, Donald Trump used today's tragedy as an occasion to renew his idiotic call for a ban on Muslims.

Orlando police say 50 people died. An official list of victims is here. The police chief sent out an email referring to the "lone terrorist."

The weapons used by Mateen were lawfully acquired. He had a security guard's license and worked for the same company since 2007. [More...]

G4S said that Mateen had been an employee since Sept. 10, 2007. G4S provides security in many places, including Afghanistan and Iraq.

His ex-wife called him unstable and said he beat her for no reason. She also said he had an associate degree in science from Indian River State College. (The college and his father say his degree was in criminal justice.)

Mateen's father expressed the regret of the family. He said the attack wasn't about religion. (He made it sound more likely his son might have been targeting gays.) His father used to host a TV show on some obscure channel in California and has expressed support for the Taliban. Sometimes he appears incoherent. He seems to want to be President of Afghanistan.

ISIS loves this kind of attention, but that doesn't mean we should give it to them. The Orlando attacker was ISIS inspired, not ISIS directed.

There's no indication that Mateen was in touch with terrorists overseas or that the attack was directed by someone else, a law enforcement officials told NBC News. Nor is there evidence that anyone helped or encouraged him, several officials said. ...Mateen didn't appear to have any direct ties with ISIS, sources said, although he was a follower of ISIS propaganda

Lone wolf attacks are rare, but they do happen and this won't be the last one. Responses like that of Donald Trump are apt to create more such incidents. Calls for more restrictions on buying guns won't reduce them.

From my vantage point, America's relentless bombing campaign, including targeted killings, are also a factor. The U.S. and its allies are not just taking out terrorists. The bombing kills children and civilians and causes devastation to their communities. It's a lightening rod for extremist support. One typical comment on Twitter:

Thousands of Afghans died and continue to die at the hands of Americans, but they'll only focus on the one Afghan who killed 50 Americans

Another writes:

Thoughts & prayers are with all the innocent victims of America's airstrikes. Kids left orphaned, men & women left widowed for over a decade...Homes, mosques, hospitals, schools, orphanages, playgrounds, market places, nothing has been spared from their utter wanton destruction.

Time will tell what sent Mateen over the edge -- mental illness, homophobia or religious extremism. His wife said in another interview he was bi-polar and mentally ill. One thing I'm pretty sure wouldn't have made a bit of difference: stronger gun laws.

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  • Display: Sort:
    exactly, Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Jun 12, 2016 at 11:23:07 PM EST
    the Orlando massacre is not about guns, just as the Boston Marathon bombing was not about pressure cookers, and 9/11 was not about boxcutters

    Right (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by FreakyBeaky on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:51:48 AM EST
    And we must remember none of those things are designed to kill human beings in large numbers at close range.

    Oh, wait ...

    Parent

    Worth mentioning (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by CST on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    That three people died during the marathon bombing. Hundreds were injured, but only three people died. Everyone else was able to get treated and survived.

    A fourth person was killed in a related event by a gun.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#167)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:45:43 PM EST
    I do agree with HRC's statement in Cleveland today that "weapons of war" should not be on our streets.  IMO, the means/tools focus (e.g., AR-47) should not displace nor pretend to address the genesis, the causes of the hatred & other motives leading to violence such as seen yesterday, we should not ignore nor pretend to un-see the clear connection in these extreme rampages of the method and result.

    Parent
    Excuse me for forgetting to say "BUT" (none / 0) (#168)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:49:12 PM EST
    after the word "yesterday."

    Parent
    Maybe it would not help... (5.00 / 10) (#2)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 12, 2016 at 11:28:27 PM EST
    but I see no downside to reinstating the assault weapon ban.

    Worth a try (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 12, 2016 at 11:28:59 PM EST
    If a person in your house was suicidal (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:20:01 AM EST
    and a danger to themselves and others, would you leave a loaded gun in the house simply because the reason for person's destructive impulse wasn't, in the final analysis, "about" easy access to a gun?

    Parent
    It worked for Paris (none / 0) (#8)
    by Redbrow on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:42:14 AM EST
    ...oh, wait....nevermind.

    Muslim terrorists have the will and they will always find the way.

    Non-muslims have to realize that islam is not a just a religion. It is an all encompassing political and social ideology.

    There are ten countries in the world that outlaw homosexuality with capital punishmnet. All of them are islamic governments.

    Parent

    Try a thought expiriment (none / 0) (#88)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:54:43 AM EST
    Imagine France or other European country with the gun laws we have. Do you really think things would be better? I think they would be much worse and these type of terrorist attacks would be much more prevalent.

    Parent
    The downside (none / 0) (#35)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:34:53 AM EST

    The downside is it was ineffective and therefore a waste of resources. Note that far more restrictive laws in France failed to stop the Paris shootings.

    Parent
    how many people (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by CST on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:42:34 PM EST
    in France die of gun violence per day, per capita?  What about the U.S.?

    No, gun control didn't stop that one shooting in France.  How many shootings have we had?

    Parent

    It isn't aout nor should it be about (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:04:12 PM EST
    all or nothing.  Insofar as I know, no one is saying that doing x will totally eradicate violence from guns.  We are arguing, tho, that doing nothing will absolutely beget nothing but more of the same; while taking common sense steps should minimize the numbers killed/wounded in the days & months to come as well as lessen the attempts leading to such carnage.

    Parent
    And you base that opinion on what, exactly? (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:05:12 AM EST
    Jeralyn: "One thing I'm pretty sure wouldn't have made a bit of difference: stronger gun laws."

    Wishful thinking? I'm sorry, but the evidence otherwise doesn't support such an opinion.

    Defining a "mass shooting" as an event in which four or more people were killed by one of more assailants, there were 118 mass shootings in the United States from 1900 to September 2004, when the assault weapons ban expired. That averages 1.13 such incidents per year.

    In the years since the ban has expired, there have been 47 mass shooting events, including yesterday's tragedy in Orlando. That's an average of 3.91 per year, an increase of over 340 percent.

    That is a startling jump, by any measure.

    The vast majority of those 47 (none / 0) (#9)
    by Redbrow on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:13:09 AM EST
    "Mass shooting events" were commited with handguns, not "assault rifles" and were gang related.

    Crimes committed using rifles of all kinds pales in comparison to hand guns.

    I certainly support more thorough vetting and  delaying sales of guns to individuals investigated by the FBI three times within the past few years for suspicion of islamic terrorism or any other form of terrorism.

    Parent

    You can't see the forest for the trees. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:26:27 AM EST
    We're losing 33,000 people annually to gun violence, whether by murder, accident or suicide. 50 dead in Orlando. 32 dead in Blacksburg, VA. 27 dead at Sandy Hook, CT. 14 dead in San Bernardino, CA. 12 dead in Aurora, CO. 12 dead in the Washington, D.C. Navy Yard. And they've all occurred since September 2004.

    These numbers of fatalities from single incidents are appalling. There is no other industrialized first world country that has this nonsensical level of armed mayhem amongst its citizenry, and we endure it voluntarily thanks to our ridiculously easy access to firearms. A minority's fetish for guns should not pre-empt other people's right to not have to live in fear.

    :-(

    Parent

    Suicide by a firearm (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:38:46 AM EST

    You call suicide by a firearm "gun violence."  Is a person that hangs themself a victim of "rope violence?"

    Parent
    Only a true ignoramus would ... (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:09:24 PM EST
    ... offer such a stupid and uninformed analogy. Statistics on suicide by firearm have been tracked by the CDC ever since that agency first began compiling their studies on gun violence. Do try to keep up with the 21st century.

    Parent
    Suicides (none / 0) (#12)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:06:06 AM EST
    Make up 2/3 of your annual gun deaths. Those ill people are not a danger to anyone but themselves.

    "Assault rifle" , in this case was a semi automatic, 1 trigger squeeze, 1 round .

    Many hunting rifles are semi automatic, the AR 15 looks scary though. I know there are those that say it can be adjusted to make it automatic, but that is already illegal, and hasn't been a part of these unfortunate mass shootings. Mental illness, and ideology, are the driving force for these incidents

    If there are changes to be made the most logical would be magazine capacity, limiting it would make sense.  

    Parent

    And the criminals will just do (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:25:55 AM EST
    what the law says...right?

    Parent
    Jim (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:54:17 AM EST
    This is the dumbest argument that always comes from the pro-gun crowd:  "Criminals don't obey laws, so why have more laws banning or curtailing guns."

    A 4 year old can see the failed logic in your argument, nanely, then why have ANY laws.  I mean, people are still going to speed on the highways, people are still going to rob convenience stores, domestic and child abuse will still occur, so why have laws against any of that??  The fact that gun lovers have to resort to that shows they have no argument.

    One of the guns used in this attack, the AR-15, has become the weapon of choice for mass murderers - Aurora, Newtown, San Bernadino. It is a weapon with ONE purpose - to kill people. It is not used for hunting, and please spare us all the bull $hit arguments about "some people like to use them target practice."

    Conservatives love to try and instill fear in everyone by screaming, "Radical Islam!  ISIS! Terrorists!"  Well, guess who thinks our lax gun laws are fantastic ideas and who encourage their followers to take advantage of these lax gun laws and buy assault-style weapons to shoot people. And the Republicans and NRA have worked to defeat legislation that would prevent people on terror watch lists from buying a gun. But at least Wayne LaPierre can still raise his arm in solidarity!

    There have been at least 998 mass shootings, since Sandy Hook. On average, there is more than one mass shooting PER DAY in the United States. States with more guns have more gun deaths (shocking, I know). Conversely, states with tighter gun control laws have fewer related gun deaths. Since you're a big fan of police, Jim, you might like to know that police are more likely to be killed in the line of duty in states with more guns (another shocker, I'm sure).

    I doubt anything will change - I mean 20 small children were shot and the NRA and Republicans in Congress just yawned, so I can't imagine too many of them would be moved by the deaths of gay Latinos.  I am so tired of bull$hit gunowners thinking the 2nd Amendnent means they should have unfettered access to whatever weapon they want and it is so sacred an amendnent that there can be no regulation or restriction on it (conveniently forgetting that there are all kinds of regulations and restrictions on all the OTHER amendments, including the FIRST, which is by far, more fundamental to what this country is about than Bubba's right to have AR-15).

    Grr.

    Parent

    There is such an easy response (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:12:06 AM EST
    To the idiocy that "we can't do more".

    People who are on THE FREAKIN TERRORIST WATCH LIST can buy a guy as easily as you or me because republicans won't let the congress stop them.

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:23:12 AM EST
    it seems somehow the GOP are selling this idea that they can protect us from "terrorism" when same morons don't even have the cojones to stand up to the NRA. What a bunch of cowards.

    Parent
    You're wrong. (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:34:35 AM EST
    A 4 year old can see the failed logic in your argument, namely, then why have ANY laws.

    Because laws, like locks on doors, help keep basically honest people, honest. The criminal and radical islamists aren't interested in obeying the law.

    The AR15 is no different than the 22 rifle I owned as a boy. It was semi-automatic and could fire a LR hollow point as fast as I pulled the trigger. Ban the AR15 and the killers will just go to another weapon, such as my personal home defense weapon, a 20 gauge pump shotgun. Light, fast and deadly.

    So the only way you can have any success is to seize all guns. And even then the killers will find a way to get guns. The NRA and many on the Right understand this.

    Orlando should not be turned into a gun control issue. It should be seen for what it is. An attack by an enemy. A radical islamist killer motivated by ISIS who, in turn, is motivated by certain passages in the Loran and Sharia Law, which calls for killing none believers and gays specifically.

    We now know that the terrorist's father was all over social media pledging support for the Taliban. We know that the FBI interviewed the terrorist 3 times yet didn't take actions. You want change to protect us? Fix that process.

    Finally, take a deep breath and stay away from "Gun Free Zones." You'll be safer.


    Parent

    "more than one mass shooting per day?" (none / 0) (#96)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:18:24 AM EST
    Your data is garbage, jb.

    Gannett: Behind the Bloodshed.

    Parent

    Two things (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:25:29 PM EST
    1. You're right - I left out the wids "on average", as in, "On average, there is more than one mass shooting in the US per day."  See chart 4.

    2. While trying to play "gotcha!" You may want to use data that is newer than 5 years old.


    Parent
    Here ya go, JB (3.50 / 2) (#131)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:43:08 PM EST
    Create your own definition.

    The tracker uses a fairly broad definition of "mass shooting"

    Broad is an understatement.  Four people shot isn't a mass shooting; it's a family squabble.

    Parent

    I will go with (1.00 / 1) (#145)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:45:09 PM EST
    What the FBI and the President of the United States
    classify as a "mass shooting" over your ridiculous one, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    Back in 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as an attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. In January 2013, a mandate for federal investigation of mass shootings authorized by President Barack Obama lowered that baseline to three or more victims.


    Parent
    Suicide is a choice. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:10:57 AM EST
    Isn't it interesting that so many pro-choicer won't allow the final choice?

    Parent
    Nice straw man (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:15:47 AM EST
    News flash

    A gun is not the only way to kill yourself.  Or even the most considerate of others.

    Parent

    "considerate?" lol. Who gives a rip (none / 0) (#98)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:24:26 AM EST
    at that point.  If this society were half civilized, there would be legal alternatives.  We are not and there are none.

    "straw man?"

    Educate yourself on logical fallacies.

    Parent

    I guess that's one difference (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:11:26 PM EST
    Between us.  See, I have considered this.  Thought about it quite a lot in fact.  Because I can totally see myself doing it in certain circumstances.  Circumstances that, baring some vegetative state, will almost certainly arrive at some point.

    IMO it's just simple consideration to make it as least traumatic as possible for the one who finds you.  In fact it's one of the first things I considered.

    My favorite uncle killed himself.  It's a long story but basically his wife of 62 years died quietly.  He found her on the sofa with a book in her lap as if she had gone to sleep.  And he tried it without her.  He really did.  He gave it almost three years and according to the note, just finally decided he was not enjoying it any more and it was time to go.  I can totally see myself making the same decision.

    Anyway, my cousin who found hm was pretty severely traumatized by finding him.  And he was prett careful.  He knew exactly where and how to shoot himself at the base of his skull to make the least mess and have the least blood.  She sad there was hardly any blood.  But still a grisly image she will live with forever.

    So you see being considerate of others in death is not that different from being considerate of others in life.  At least IMO.

    But that just me.

    Parent

    Loading up on opiates may be illegal (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:48:40 PM EST
    but around here, it's easier to do than it is to get all the Girl Scout cookies you ordered on delivered on time.  

    Parent
    Prior to 1934 (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:24:06 AM EST
    you could purchase a machine gun yet there were no school killings.....

    Parent
    Not true (as usual with you) (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Towanda on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:33:39 AM EST
    There were school shootings in the 19th century.

    Parent
    It pains me to be nice (none / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:52:21 AM EST
    to someone like you who can't resist a dig..

    But I found one where the US government killed NA's at school.

    Do you have one where a single killer killed multiple people??

    Parent

    Learn to google (none / 0) (#120)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:26:14 PM EST
    Jim, you're probably right (none / 0) (#19)
    by fishcamp on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:17:00 AM EST
    about the no school killings, but how do you know?  You weren't born until 1938, not that you would know then either.  But since I was born on Dec. 2nd, are you older?

    Parent
    Yes, I am older. (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:18:05 AM EST
    Prior to 1934 (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:58:28 AM EST
    You could buy cocaine from your local druggist.

    What's your point?

    Parent

    The point is that automatic weapons (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:47:37 AM EST
    have been banned for 82 years.

    The AR15 is not an automatic weapon.

    Parent

    Automatic weapons are completely legal (none / 0) (#65)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:14:18 AM EST
    Get your tax stamp and pony up the tens of thousands of dollars that legally acquirable automatic weapons cost, and you're good to go.

    They must be acquired through a FFL'ed dealer.

     

    Parent

    I don't think Trump's tweets will cause more (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:59:05 AM EST
    lone wolves to slaughter people using AR 15s.

    The AR-15 (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:28:42 AM EST
    How America's Mass Shooters Now Use Weapons of War

    And

    A Brief History of America's Massive Gun-Buying Spree

    A frightening look at how powerful the NRA has become.  Maybe THEY, or at least their leadership, should be investigated as terrorists.

    Parent

    Site violator. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:27:00 AM EST


    Austrailia (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:35:41 AM EST
    is empirical proof that imposing strict gun control does work. Link

    Australia... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:51:39 AM EST
    confiscated existing guns, that's why it was so effective.  

    I don't think the American people will go for that.  This country has more guns than people, and a lot more people than Australia. Unless all our guns get melted down to scrap (I'll gladly light the match!), and an iron-clad manufacturing ban is put in place, we're going nowhere fast trying to tackle this problem from the supply side.  

    We gotta dry up the demand somehow...the day no one wants an AR-15 is the day no one manufactures an AR-15.

    Parent

    "iron clad manufacturing ban" (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:45:45 AM EST
    Dude, this nation sells $60,000,000,000.00 worth of guns and worse, much worse, every year.

    Still, a gun free Wehrmacht is pleasurable to imagine.

    Imagine enforcing our foreign policy with... comfy chairs!

    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:26:48 AM EST
    as pipe-dreamy as a manufacturing/importation ban sounds, confiscation of every weapon of mass destruction in this country a la Australia is even more pipe-dreamy.

    Maybe the only solution is an evolutionary leap past savagery.  Let us pray.

    Parent

    Lone wolf attacks (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:26:34 AM EST
    Are the most difficult to stop.

    That said this guy was not exactly low profile.  How the hell Is this

    The weapons used by Mateen were lawfully acquired. He had a security guard's license and worked for the same company since 2007. [More...]

    G4S said that Mateen had been an employee since Sept. 10, 2007. G4S provides security in many places, including Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Possible?

    With his neighbor and coworkers saying he saw this coming and was not surprised and his wife saying he was dangerously deranged.  

    Also I refuse to accept the idea there is nothing we can do about this sh!t except give the Middle East to the caliphate just so they leave us alone.

    Listening to Hillary in a phone interview (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:43:24 AM EST
    She is saying "when a person has been interviewed three times by the FBI we may have consider putting that person in a database"

    Holy hell.  Is this in question?  IMO that's a big yes.  If a person has been interviewed three times by the FBI which you would think they have to know about to cautions from his ex wife and coworkers, yes, that person should absolutely be in a data base.  At the very least.

    Sorry all the government overreach folks.  It's crazy to NOT have that person in a database .  If we started watching the people who are as obviously nuts as this guy we might be able to spend less time frisking grandmothers and toddlers at airport in our insane flailing to appear fair and balanced.

    Parent

    Hunter S. Thompson... (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:42:50 AM EST
    was interviewed by the FBI, they had a file on John Lennon as thick as War & Peace, MLK, and on and on and on.  How effective is a database really gonna be?

    And what's a database really gonna accomplish? If there is no cause to arrest, there is no cause to arrest.  If there is no cause to deny a gun purchase, there is no cause.  And if there is a cause, still pretty damn easy to get weapons of mass destruction.

     

    Parent

    Got any arguments less that 20-30 years old (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:48:41 AM EST
    Exactly the response I expected.  You will get some 5s no doubt.

    We will agree to disagree.

    Parent

    More like (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:53:38 AM EST
    less than 40 or 50 years old.

    Parent
    Lots of recent examples... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:58:49 AM EST
    of totally innocent muslims and others being harassed by the FBI and other acronyms...I was trying to pull at Captain's reason strings with some examples of FBI targets he might admire who would be in "the database".

    Parent
    Really (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:47:21 AM EST
    So why was this guy, with everyone around him throwing up red flags and three last interviews with the FBI, not "harassed" to the point that he was less likely to kill 50 people and wound many others?

    If you are arguing for a more sensible and effective surveillance we agree.  If you are arguing for no surveillance IMO you're nuts.

    Parent

    I think the issue should be (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:17:47 PM EST
    framed a bit differently. Thus far, I have read reports about the FBI's having investigated shooter for ties to ISIS. There is no report of the FBI taking a broader perspective, i.e., looking into domestic violence history or otherwise coming up with a personality profile. FBI seems to have looked narrowly at whether or not the shooter had ties to terrorist groups, and when they did not find evidence of same, dropped the case. Sorry to be so round about, but the point I am driving at is that all the reliance since 9/11 on electronic snooping has come to replace what I consider true intelligence work -- getting the whole picture, using intellect, examination, collaboration among professionals with different backgrounds, in order to get the best handle on whether someone is a danger to others. With all the snooping technology available, the attacks in Paris came as a total surprise. It seems that intelligence gathering is an oxymoron these days.  

    Parent
    I agree completely (none / 0) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:28:15 PM EST
    I made the point upthread, or meant to when I mentioned more sensible and effective surveillance.  I agree with everything you said.  

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:39:20 PM EST
    they are so overloaded with data at this point they don't even know what's good and bad data. So yeah, getting rid of a lot of the "noise" would probably help focus on the task at hand.

    Parent
    Profiling (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:00:30 PM EST
    Helps identify possible suspects and is greatly needed when dealing with limited resources,

    Unfortunately that is one tool that has been taken out of law enforcement's toolbox.

    Israel does a great job at their airports, without  the idiocy or incompetence of our TSA

    Parent

    You are confusing (none / 0) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:07:35 PM EST
    racial profiling with other profiling though it seems since terrorism is largely committed by white males, perhaps they should be the subject of racial profiling. This particular one was even a fan of the NYPD. Perhaps NYPD supporters should be profiled?

    Parent
    Not confused 1 bit (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:16:03 PM EST
    You completely turn everything anyone says upside down if they are not in full accord with your world view.

    I meant PROFILING,

    As in what Israel does at airports
    As in what insurance companies do in assessing risks, OH my, you mean those evil insurance companies profile?
    Yes , they do, it is the most effective method to mitigate risk.
    Why are those under 25 paying much higher car insurance rates? Profiling, analyzing previous historical records and identifying a profile.

    Parent

    Insurance (none / 0) (#200)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:41:12 PM EST
    companies do not profile. If you think that you are completely confused about what insurance companies do. Or do you think running a MVR from the DMV is the same as "profiling".

    Parent
    They create (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:45:49 PM EST
    A profile of the 25 year old driver, with changes due to type of car driven, to sex of the driver.
    Yes, they do create profiles and apply risk to each profile.

    Life insurance rates vary per the profile of the applicant, their family health history, their lifestyle, all goes into creating a profile odf the individual.

    Get a grip

    Parent

    Have you actually been to Israel? (none / 0) (#198)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:32:16 PM EST
    Have you recently experienced airport security in any other country other than our own? If not on both counts, then please don't speak as though you're an authority on the subject. Profiling as a practice in these United States has led to repeated instances in which people have been cast under suspicion for no other reason than their race and ethnicity. It's a topic unworthy of any further discussion.

    Parent
    You are just (none / 0) (#201)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:41:18 PM EST
    Plain silly at times. Verbal mumbo jumbo

    Profiling. Is what insurance companies do,

    to mitigate risk.

    Is what law enforcement used to do , to effectively utilize limited resources to combat crime.

    Is what Israel does at airports , without the ineffective and comical TSA. And from what I read of airport security immediately after the Brussels atrocity , similar problems occur there.

    So, to be politically correct, we should not best utilize our law enforcement resources.

    It is the same most effective  methodology insurance companies use when assessing risk, but we cannot use it

    Parent

    I love the way the idiot media is framing this (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:02:12 AM EST
    "Some people say if a person is interviewed by the FBI they should be automatically put on some kind of watch list"

    Well,  that certainly sounds arguable.

    How about if they ARE INTERVIEWED THREE TIMES by the FBI?

    Parent

    Hillary's staff... (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:16:21 AM EST
    is being interviewed by the FBI.  I don't know how many times each. Do they go on the list? Or will that depend on the basis of the interview?

    At the end of day, if there is no grounds for an arrest, what do you expect the government to do?  Stop a gun purchase to a piece of sh*t who was an armed security guard for a living?  Or an active military piece of sh*t in the case of the Ft. Hood massacre? Or to the mother of the Sandy Hook piece of sh*t?

    And how many potential pieces of sh*t are out there, and how many agents/IT guys will we need to keep constant tabs on them all?

    Parent

    Gawd (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:21:02 AM EST
    Do you type Thai sh!t with a straight face.  Pushing the idea that being interviewed for the reasons Clintons staff is and being interviewed for possible terrorist connections and sympathies is in any way the same or needs the same response is idiotic and worse dangerous.

    Parent
    Devil is in the details... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:35:56 AM EST
    maybe we should clarify them before we start a database and go back to sleep...call me crazy.

    Parent
    Go back to sleep? (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:42:54 AM EST
    So yours is the "alert" response in your opinion.  Other that withdrawing from the Middle East, what would you do about the threat?

    Adding, it seems that, while they may be incompetent as hell, the government including the leftish side and even Sanders as far as I can tell, agree with me.
    Thank god for that.

    Parent

    I don't know... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:55:47 AM EST
    that much can be done about the threat without radically altering the way of life we hold dear.

    Banning the manufacture and importation of rapid fire and kill weapons makes more sense than another database.  A double the retail price national buyback program of said weapons, and destroy them. Stop droning and occupying.  Free on demand voluntary & confidential mental health/anger management treatment.  Spread far and wide the only thing that can conquer hate...LOVE.

    Parent

    Sensible, effective, (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:05:21 AM EST
    and most importantly, respectful of civil rights and liberties.

    Parent
    You won this round, kdog, (none / 0) (#62)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:08:53 AM EST
    It is unfreakin' believable - but believable - what people will throw away in the name of security, to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin.

    Parent
    Not even security... (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:17:22 AM EST
    a false sense of security.

    Parent
    Righto (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:10:09 AM EST
    You kdog and the 50 dead people definitely won this round.

    Parent
    I agree with you Capt. (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:05:50 AM EST
    But, I see that Peter G also agrees with Kdog.
    I have a lot of respect for Peter's opinions and whenever I find myself on the other side of an opinion/argument from him, I tend to re-examine my views.

    Yesterday, when I was talking to my mom about the Orlando shooting, I heard anti-muslim sentiment from her for the first time. This is a woman who lived and worked most of her life in a muslim country. Muslim coworkers, friends (including best friend) and neighbors. In fact, our next door neighbor, a devout muslim woman, used to call my mom, an equally devout Catholic, her daughter. So, I was shocked to hear that from my mom.

    With the target of yesterdays shooting being the LGBTQ community, I can imagine that this has probably hit really close to home.
    So, while I agree with your comment, I also get why Peter and Kdog are advising caution.

    Parent

    That's what the bastards on all sides want... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:14:19 AM EST
    us to hate them, them to hate us.  All us and them, and no we....and if there is a win to be had, it's in the we, not the us and them.

    Parent
    I also give Peter much weight (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:16:01 AM EST
    But if I sounded like I am at all up for tolerating anti Muslim thought, actions, or behavior, let me be clear.  I am not.

    I understand the danger.   IMO this is one of the things the president has shown the most and best leadership on.

    OTOH, I believe very strongly that we can not allow that to stop us from seeing the facts before with unclouded eyes.  And I believe that may be at least one reason this person had a job with a security firm that guards, among other things, several nuclear power facilities.

    Watching this person because he had three encounters with the FBI and many many other red flags is not anti Muslim.
    Not watching him because of an over abundance of caution of being accused of being anti Muslim is not pro Muslim.  IMO it's just dumb.

    Sometimes I disagree with people I respect very much.

    Parent

    Me too. (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:32:48 AM EST
    Sometimes I disagree with people I respect very much.

    I did not mean to imply that I think Peter is always right (sorry Peter :-)).

    Also, I apologize for not being clearer and in no way took anything in your comment to be anti-muslim.

    My anecdote about my mom should have been a separate comment. Just worried about how anti-muslim sentiment is growing even in the most unexpected places. Again, not talking about you here.

    Parent

    "Suspicion is Guilt" eh Howdy? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:08:38 AM EST
    Just put 'em on a list, eh?

    That guy was probably already on a dozen "lists," beginning with the SARs that were probably what nudged him under the FBI's nose to begin with.  

    Parent

    A mischaracterization of Howdy's intent (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:49:13 PM EST
    Mr. Natural: The question really comes down to how do we move together, as a "we", to fight this threat of terrorism? Of lone wolf terroristic acts?  

    We are many--so how do we give meaning to the words "e pluribus Unum?"  Shouldn't we be looking for and defining--at least-- common sense, practical steps?  I think we should for a number of reasons; foremost among those reasons is that the fear generated by a fundamental loss of personal security that grows in so many citizens as the violent events grow in our country will inevitably lead to security measures that cannot be imagined now IF we don't do a direct, honest assessment now.  

    Don't get me wrong: I am not suggesting that we trade freedom for security.  No way.  But, as history would suggest, direct & well thought-out government responses can lessen the probability of overreaction later that would surely come if the majority of people feel threatened in their personal security.  (Psychology 101, so to speak.)
    My concern was heightened in the past two days in general morning chats as my dog and I walk our customary a.m. walk of a mile or two.  E.g., a handful of individuals then & later have offered--get this--that responses such as Trump's xenophobic exhortations on banning Muslims by presidential order & on conflating all Muslims in intent have led to a few of these educated, professional people offering vague statements like "maybe there might be some credibility in what Trump says <banning Muslim entry into the US.>"  

    IMO, when people are scared, a large number will trade away anything ... better to figure out a way early on to address that fear directly with common sense actions while maximizing the rights of all Americans, rather than to pretend that containment is easy or even workable.

    Parent

    Bullsh!t (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:21:30 AM EST
    Guess the FBI's suspicion in Mateen's case (none / 0) (#161)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:18:14 PM EST
    Was spot on.

    Parent
    Reportedly (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:22:04 PM EST
    the "first" investigation was pretty extensive and long.  They had him watched and followed.  Apparrently just enough to pi$$ him off.

    And took him off any watch list and forgot about him.  Well until the brief attention of the next two close encounters.

    Parent

    We will my friend, we will... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:54:44 AM EST
    I'm a firm nay on that idea.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:48:47 AM EST
    as long as the GOP is too afraid to stand up to the NRA that's the option right now.

    The ex-wife was on CNN spilling the beans about this guy. He was a nasty piece of work beating her all the time. He also wanted to be a police officer. How many of these types of people are police attracting to their ranks? That's a scary thought too.

    Parent

    I just saw two co workers (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:51:34 AM EST
    "I wish I could say I was surprised, but I am not"

    Parent
    Think this guy is on a watch list (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:59:42 AM EST
    The Orland gay club gunman's father has well-known anti-American views and is an ideological supporter of the Afghan Taliban. A new message posted by the father on Facebook early Monday morning also makes it clear he could have passed anti-homosexual views onto his son.

    Seddique Mir Mateen, father of Orlando gunman Omar Mateen, who died in a shootout with police after killing at least 49 people early Sunday morning, regularly attended Friday prayers at a Florida mosque with his son.

    Play VIDEO
    Details on suspected Orlando gunman Omar Mateen
    In the video posted early Monday, Seddique Mateen says his son was well-educated and respectful to his parents, and that he was "not aware what motivated him to go into a gay club and kill 50 people."

    The elder Mateen says he was saddened by his son's actions during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

    He then adds: "God will punish those involved in homosexuality," saying it's, "not an issue that humans should deal with."

    Of course not.  Substitute Muslim with Christian and you would have the standard message of TV evangelism

    LINK

    Parent

    I have (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:21:11 AM EST
    been saying the same thing for a long time. He could be Pat Robertson's Muslim twin.

    Parent
    The earth moved (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:19:04 AM EST
    Howdy and I agree.


    Parent
    No we dont (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:22:45 AM EST
    Okie Dokie (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:33:25 PM EST
    If I could I wouldn't.


    Parent
    What am I missing (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by ragebot on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:43:48 AM EST
    The shooter's wife claimed he abused her, in fact I have seen her say he beat her.  To buy a firearm in Florida you have to submit to a background check by filling out a form that is submitted online to FDLE who verifies what is on the form is true.  One of the things you have to swear to on the form is something about not advocating overthrow of the American government.

    But another thing you have to swear to is that you have never been accused/convicted of domestic violence.  If this guy really beat his wife he would be prohibited by Florida law from buying firearms.  

    Maybe a little OT but it has bothered me for quite some time that many women suffer abuse from their husbands/boyfriends and simply do little, or nothing, about it.  If his wife, and/or her family, thought things were bad enough to remove her from the marriage I have to wonder why no effort was made to notify LEOs.  Not saying in this case it was their fault the shooter was free to buy firearms and kill folks; rather there is too much domestic violence and everyone needs to do more to stop it.

    If the shooter had been reported for domestic violence things might have turned out differently.

    She was probably afraid (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:55:32 AM EST
    He was obviously tight with at least some branches of LE.

    IMO it really easy to understand why she might just be happy to get out alive.  

    Parent

    If my uncle were (none / 0) (#56)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:57:41 AM EST
    a woman, he would be my aunt.

    Parent
    Seriously (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:04:55 AM EST
    As if this was the only red flag for this guy.

    Parent
    As you (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:59:00 AM EST
    saw in the George Zimmerman case simply being accused is not enough to prevent someone from getting guns. I don't know where you are getting your information from but Zimmerman had beaten up police officers and yet still was able to get a gun and also had been accused of domestic violence. So I believe in Florida you must actually have been convicted of domestic violence for it to stop you from getting a gun. Florida has incredibly lax guns laws, some of the laxest in the entire nation and this weekend too many people suffered the consequences of lax gun laws.

    The NRA has continually been aligning themselves with terrorism. Now they are having to defend a terrorist who was a Muslim. I expect many heads to explode over this one.

    Parent

    Yes he was such a bad boy (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:48:32 AM EST
    In July 2005, when he was 21, Zimmerman was arrested after shoving an undercover alcohol control agent while a friend of Zimmerman's was being arrested for underage drinking.


    Parent
    Molested his cousin (none / 0) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:56:54 AM EST
    Had bullying issues where he was the bully all his life.

    Parent
    A continual (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:06:23 PM EST
    pattern of abuse coming from Zimmerman.

    Here ya go it's even Fox Newsand they don't back up what you are saying.

    It was so bad with one woman she got a restraining order against Zimmerman. Restraining orders against him is a pretty strong case for him being violent but even having a restraining order against you is not enough to prevent Zimmerman from collecting an arsenal.

    Continue to defend and make excuses for the POS all you want.

    Parent

    El Zimmo (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:44:11 PM EST
    may be violent, paranoid, and abusive, but he does it in a very patriotic, constitution-cherishing way.

    He always wraps himself in the flag first before he raps a woman over the head.

    Parent

    I can only hope you mean that what bothers you (none / 0) (#78)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:38:23 AM EST
    is that their is so little support given to women who report domestic abuse. They need a place to live, child care, money, etc. Very often that is just not possible if their partner is in jail. And they have to be believed by the authorities.

    But I suspect that is not what you mean.

    Parent

    from my post (none / 0) (#158)
    by ragebot on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:08:50 PM EST
    "too much domestic violence and everyone needs to do more to stop it."

    So why do you think this is not what I mean.

    As you correctly point out abused women often depend on their abuser for financial support.  That did not seem to be the case with the woman identified as his ex wife who had her family literally remove her from the shooter's arms.

    I have filled out the required form to buy small arms in Florida.  You have to swear you are not trying to over throw the American government and that your record is clean in terms of domestic abuse.  That form is on line and FDLE has to approve it before you can take possession of a firearm.  Once I was at a gun shop picking up a pistol I had bought second hand from the Detroit PD and had to wait a couple of hours due to problems with the internet.  On all other occasions it has taken less than ten minutes for approval.

    Just my two cents buy my guess is that peeps who are into domestic violence are they type of folks I would not like to see with firearms.  If I had my druthers I would require every one who wants to obtain fire arms to pass a test where they had to field strip the weapon, clean it, and re assemble it in a timed test.  If you can't do that you have no business with fire arms.

    Parent

    That would be his ex-wife, ragebot. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    His current wife -- with whom he has a 3-year-old son -- has not spoken publicly, and it appears that they were estranged and separated, since she's now living in Rodeo, CA northeast of San Francisco.

    Parent
    Just a question -- (none / 0) (#181)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:25:25 PM EST
    Are you sure ex never reported the abuse and/or police never called?  

    Parent
    What we can know, is that (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:20:51 PM EST
    it never got to the point of a court issuing a domestic violence restraining order against him. If it had, he would not have been able to buy (or lawfully continue to possess) a firearm. 18 USC 922(g)(8).

    Parent
    This is just another (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:54:05 AM EST
    unfortunate, unavoidable event. A mentally deranged American citizen exercising his second amendment rights and firmly held beliefs.  Acting on his religious grounds to hate and kill gays, especially Latin gays who no doubt came from Mexico or islands where there is yet no wall erected in the middle of the Florida Straights. And, also too, this was just the natural outgrowth of men using women's bathrooms, where the shooter located those poor souls cowering in the women's stalls, texting their mothers for help and saying their goodbyes.  

    Those people who are looking for any discussion other than banning Muslims or attacking Iran are misguided.  If the tragedy of Sandy Hook, with the murder of little first graders warrants nothing other than "prayer" and a ho hum, it is unrealistic to think that wingnuts will line up to act on magazines or even one bullet, for murders in a gay club. After all, some Republican presidential candidates, including the runner-up, Ted Cruz, were introduced at political rallies, by the "kill the gays" preacher, Kevin Swanson, who noted in the introduction that the appropriate punishment for gays is death.

    So, once again, the answer is prayer, and prayer only.  Take the cue from Huckabee, .."Janet and I pray for the victims and their families" I wonder if Huckabee's family includes a dead same sex spouse?  And, Cruz, wants us to unite to defeat ISIS (how's that for an original thought) and Tom Cotton, took time off from his Iran obsession to call for prayer.  Stuff happens.

    open society (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by pitachips on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:15:32 AM EST

    I think approaching this from the standpoint of fighting for stronger and more comprehensive background screening will be more effective, as well as politically achievable. If you have the votes to ban the sale/possession of long guns like the AR-15, then by all means do it. But there is a zero percent chance of instituting a national ban/prohibition on the sale/possession of handguns - which are used in the overwhelming majority of all homicides.

    Unfortunately our government will never admit that in an open society that there is very little anyone can do to prevent these "long wolf" type of attacks. The TSA failed to prevent undercover Homeland Security agents from going through security with improvised explosives and other prohibited items 67 times out of 70 attempts. The Justice Dept. itself conceded that we couldn't attribute any decrease in gun crime to the ban.

    The government does not want to confront or admit to the root cause of most gun deaths (poverty and lack of resources/investment in poor communities). Also doesn't help that we allocate precious federal resources (that could be helpful in tracking/following up on targeted individuals like the Orlando shooter) to stupid shyt like the Drug War. This is all smoke and mirrors.  

       

    maybe conclusions should be held in check until (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by leftwig on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:39:45 PM EST
    more information is available?  Do we know this was a lone wolf?  No.  Do we know if he had support, material or otherwise, in the US or abroad?  No.  We know we have a guy that attended a pretty radical mosque, had issues with his wives (though nothing involving authorities), was checked out by the FBI a few times, worked for a security firm and at one time had a legal firearms license (there was a comment in one article that this license was suspended in 2014, but I couldn't find confirmation of that).  He supposedly cheered 9/11 and talked of killing people.  He had considered an attack at Disney and instead chose a gay nightclub.

    The details around his affiliations and FBI interviews are still fuzzy.  He clearly had radical views and was influenced by ISIS and their cause.  He is the one to blame for the attack, but an investigation should be digging into why he wasn't identified as a potential risk earlier.  I agree that we'll never be able to stop all attacks, no matter what we do, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't put forth an effort to figure out what went wrong here and put processes in place to mitigate risk in the future.

    Not a lone wolf anymore (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Redbrow on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:31:50 PM EST
    His wife admitted she accompanied him to Disney World scouting out possible terror attack locations.

    Other family members are likely involved.

    It still to early to say how big his wolf pack is.

    Where do you get this stuff? (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:38:57 PM EST
    Redbrow: "His wife admitted she accompanied him to Disney World scouting out possible terror attack locations. Other family members are likely involved."

    His wife has said no such thing, at least not publicly. This anonymously sourced speculation has been attributed to an unnamed federal official, who as far as I can tell did not attribute it to her. Otherwise, because there's absolutely no evidence to support it, the story has appeared only in the People, The Wrap, Hollywood Life and Perez Hilton websites.

    Further, it appears that Omar Mateen and his second wife Noor Zahi Salman were estranged and separated, because she's currently residing in Rodeo, CA, a working class suburb town northeast of San Francisco in Contra Costa County. They have a three-year-old son.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    An abused wife who does not refuse (3.00 / 2) (#148)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:02:28 PM EST
    - at risk of her life - to accompany her violent, psycho husband on a trip, the purpose of which she may or may not know, does not become a co-conspirator in a different crime (or even a similar one) the husband commits later, after she escapes from his clutches.

    Parent
    This is his current wife (none / 0) (#149)
    by Redbrow on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:04:54 PM EST
    Admitting she had full knowledge of his plan.

    Keep up.

    Parent

    The chances that an abuser (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:13:02 PM EST
    of a former wife now has a current wife who is not abused are quite slim, in my professional experience. My comment was framed in general terms, not expressly about the case at hand, because my observation about the dynamics of domestic violence, as applied to the problem of police and prosecutors blaming a victim of abuse for her abuser's criminal conduct, was a general one.

    Parent
    Some information, Peter G., (none / 0) (#155)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:48:49 PM EST
    on the second wife, Noor Salman. This report does not confirm if Noor and Mateen were still together.   Apparently, it was with this wife (and their son) that he saw two men kissing in Miami. So, what else was a religious terrorist (maybe Trump will like this term, and it will make all the difference) to do but to buy guns and amno, rent a van and head off 120 miles to a gay club and start killing at last call.

    Parent
    I suspect (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:59:32 PM EST
    Some latency.  feelings stirred that were terrifying enough to kill 49 people.   Sure wouldn't be the first time buried homoerotic feelings resulted in a gay person being killed or injured.

    Parent
    That is exactly what I said to my husband. (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:14:49 PM EST
    Maybe, the guy got a little turned on seeing the two guys kissing and he freaked.

    Parent
    On that subject (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:32:50 PM EST
    Sometimes yu just have to laugh.  It's the only sane response-

    In today's right wing plot twist, Jim Hoft, the fabled Stupidest Man on the Internet, who has been spouting virulent anti-gay rhetoric for many years and openly associating with homophobic hate groups, has written a post for Breitbart "News" in which he comes out of the closet: After the Pulse Club Massacre, It's Time for Gays to Come Home to Republican Party.

    For Hoft to say he "tries not to harm anyone" and wants to "speak the truth," well -- wow. Again, this is the guy who for years has been propagating every fake and/or dishonest right wing conspiracy theory that bubbles out of the fever swamp, a guy who spread a completely phony story that the cop who shot Michael Brown in Ferguson had suffered major injuries after being attacked by Brown and used a crudely altered version of a CT scan to do it, a guy who often cites white supremacist websites and has even plagiarized them for his crummy right wing blog, a guy who often refers to black protesters with dehumanizing terms like "roaches."
    And when I criticized Hoft for citing a vicious anti-gay hate group ("Mass Resistance") to spread a crazed fear-mongering fable about Obama's Assistant Deputy Secretary for the Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools, Kevin Jennings, he publicly accused me of "supporting child porn in classrooms."
    While at first I was surprised to see this statement from Jim Hoft, I now realize it actually explains his long history of ugly anti-gay rhetoric; many studies have found that homophobic attitudes are more likely among deeply closeted individuals.

    LINK

    Parent

    Yes, and his homocidal (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:26:36 PM EST
    and other possible impulses bring some meaning to him with his ISIS, Afghan, Taliban and religious bulls*it delusions.  Covers rage and insecurities, gives meaning to him for senseless murders and his own death, which he must have known was to be a part of it all. Just doing God's work--kill some gays as is written.

    Parent
    Haven't heard this mentioned (none / 0) (#165)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:34:02 PM EST
    In the 24/7 psycho babble about "motivations".  It was the first thing I thought of when I heard the stuff about the kiss.  And I promis you it was the first thing that occurred to most gay men.   With any experience at all with the condition.

    I wish it was.   Along with the of showing his gansta selfies every 5 minutes.   Hit him where he lived.

    Parent

    CNN (none / 0) (#194)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:26:01 PM EST
    is reporting that the gunman visited the club several times and the LA Times is reporting he used a gay dating app.

    Parent
    Orlando Sentinel (none / 0) (#195)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:28:09 PM EST
    At least four regular customers at the Orlando gay nightclub where a gunman killed 49 people said Monday that they had seen the killer, Omar Mateen, there before.

    "Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent," said Ty Smith, who also uses the name Aries.


    "We didn't really talk to him a lot, but I remember him saying things about his dad at times," Smith said. "He told us he had a wife and child.


    Parent
    It looks like we might have been right. (none / 0) (#196)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:30:21 PM EST
    Apparently, a few Orlando locals are saying that he was on some gay dating apps.

    Parent
    Fairly confident (none / 0) (#202)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:42:46 PM EST
    He would say the bar visits and the apps were "reconnaissance".  But yeah.

    Parent
    No, she didn't. (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:42:50 PM EST
    They were estranged and separated, and she currently lives in Rodeo, CA. Please cite your source if you're going to make such claims.

    Parent
    Here he comes to save the day. (Sigh!) (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:58:52 PM EST
    Little Marco Rubio said Monday that the mass shooting in Orlando has left him rethinking his decision to not seek reelection to the U.S. Senate.

    "I haven't even given it thought in that perspective other than to say that I've been deeply impacted by it, and I think when it visits your home state, and it impacts a community you know well, it really gives you pause to think a little bit about, you know, your service to your country and where you can be most useful to your country," The Rubiorama told GOP establishment tool Hugh Hewitt today on Radio Wingnut. "My family and I will be praying about all this, and we'll see what I need to do next with my life in regards to how I can best serve."

    The Rubemeister has been under pressure from increasingly desperate Republicans to run for re-election to the Senate after his failed presidential bid as the GOP struggles to keep a majority in Congress this fall. The filing deadline in Florida is June 24.

    Personally, I think that the robotic Sir Marco ought to follow his initial instincts, and stop thinking that he's doing the people of Florida a big favor here. This opportunistic promoter of institutional homophobia was a no-show for the better part of 12 months while he tilted at his presidential windmills. It's deeply cynical pols like Marco Rubio, whose heads are up the NRA's arse, who made the Pulse nightclub massacre inevitable.

    Let's hope he just goes away.

    I say run (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:05:36 PM EST
    Little Marco Run! We'll have a great time laughing at Chris Christie taking you down.

    Parent
    There was a "good guy with a gun" at (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:31:23 PM EST
    the door of The Pulse nightclub - an armed, off-duty cop working as security guard. He supposedly "engaged" Mateen upon entering, but could not stop him. What this "good guy" did after that, either right away or during the next three hours, I am not clear on.

    Cant help but wonder .. (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 06:33:05 AM EST
    If Obama said tomorrow that his reading of the Commerce Clause tells him it is unconstitutional to keep in place the restrictions on ammonium-nitrate fertilizer bomb components that were put in place after OKC...and the the next week or month there was a bombing using those components...wouldn't he probably be impeached?

    Or if he lifted the air travel security restrictions put in place after 9/11.

    Why are guns the only thing it is not deemed common sense to regulate?

    The more I read the less I beleive (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 02:34:46 PM EST
    this was truly ISIS or Islam related. I think ISIS is the new 'Satan' that deeply disturbed minds latch onto. It does not mean that they are deep believers in the caliphate. Their mental illness is the overriding thing.

    I reserve the right to change my mind with further information...
     

    Lists (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 08:37:54 PM EST
    Can we allow people's futures to be affected if there is no proven basis for it? That's the flip side to all this," he said.

    Sally Yates, the deputy attorney general, told reporters on Monday that the Justice Department might look to adopt new procedures that would alert counterterrorism investigators if someone who had been on a terror watch list tried to buy a gun.

    Mr. Mateen bought the two weapons used in the attack just this month, officials said. "One would have liked to have known about it," Ms. Yates said.

    I'd love to hear how this violates the killers civil  rights

    LINK

    Why are all these killings in (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:27:56 AM EST
    gun free zones?

    Don't the killers understand? I mean, really. How dare they break the law.

    OK, I guess we just have to pray (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:16:05 AM EST
    these perfectly legal gun carriers get pulled over for having a tail light out or not wearing their seatbelt on the way to their crime spree. You know, things that have actual laws against them.

    Parent
    not true (none / 0) (#29)
    by mm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:06:54 AM EST
    that nightclub in Orlando was not a gun free zone.
    Open carry was permitted.

    Parent
    Are you sure (none / 0) (#41)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:49:20 AM EST
    Link to Florida law.

    In any case open carry is in many cases de facto gun free.  When I accompany my beautiful bride I carry concealed. Carrying open IMO just makes you the first target.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:07:30 AM EST
    12)(a) A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:
    1. Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05;
    2. Any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
    3. Any detention facility, prison, or jail;
    4. Any courthouse;
    5.  Any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
    6. Any polling place;
    7. Any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
    8. Any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
    9. Any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
    10. Any elementary or secondary school facility or administration building;
    11. Any career center;
    12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

    Link


    Parent

    read that carefully (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by mm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:34:55 AM EST
    Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

    That simply means that persons carrying can't bring it to the bar.  

    There is no evidence that I have seen that shows patrons were checked for weapons on entry.

    Parent

    That flies against common sense (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:40:07 AM EST
    Plus, the "portion" would be the bar and other serving area which..

    Experience Pulse, a world of fun and fantasy. Orlando's hottest gay bar located in the heart of downtown. Step inside Pulse and savor the taste of three unique worlds: The Lounge, Ultra Bar and The Adonis Room. Since 2004, Pulse has been serving up unmatched live entertainment and tantalizing liquid libations, courtesy of our renowned staff and entertainers.

    link


    Parent

    I don't intend to argue (none / 0) (#53)
    by mm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:53:03 AM EST
    That is the language of the law.  If they intended to make the nightclub totally gun free they would have written it that way.

    Like:

     

    6. Any polling place;

     7. Any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;

     8. Any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;

     9. Any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;

     10. Any elementary or secondary school facility or administration building;

     11. Any career center;

    However,

    12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

    clearly leaves a lot of wiggle room.

    Don't ask me to explain it, ask the morons who wrote it what it means.

    Parent

    No what you are doing is parsing words in an (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:16:42 AM EST
    attempt to change the subject from radical islam massacres to just where an armed person could have gone in the nightclub.

    The Lounge, Ultra Bar and The Adonis Room.

    I say that alcohol was dispensed in all three locations.

    Parent

    How (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:30:31 AM EST
    do you now reconcile your support for "radical Islam" Jim against your previous hysteria? The NRA apparently is all for terrorists having access to all military assault weapons out there.

    Parent
    nope (none / 0) (#83)
    by mm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:47:43 AM EST
    If they intended it to be any establishment serving alcohol, they would have written it that way.

    For example, the dance floor is not a "portion of the establishment [is} primarily devoted to such purpose" (serving alcohol).

    From Firearms Legal Defense Program

    *Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose. (Unfortunately, this law is ambiguous and appears to be subject to interpretation with regard to restaurants with bars or other places licensed to serve alcohol which serve other purposes such as casinos and other places of entertainment. We have researched this issue including contacting the concealed weapons division of the Florida Department of Agriculture and have received this response. While this letter and its opinion are not authoritative, the general sense is that concealed weapons may be legally carried by a CWFL holder into a business that serves alcohol but not as a primary business, however a concealed weapons carrier should stay out of portions of that business where the service of alcohol is the primary function, i.e., the bar area of a restaurant.)  

    In fact, Democrats tried to amend the law but were shot down.


    The Democrats' suggestions included measures to:

    -- limit high-capacity magazines on openly carried weapons,

    -- restrict foreigners seeking U.S. citizenship from receiving a concealed weapons permit,

    -- and prohibit the open-carrying of handguns within 500 feet of movie theaters, religious institutions, voting locations, school safety zones and bars or restaurants that serve alcohol.

    To plead their case of why the safeguards were needed, Democrats invoked several mass-shooting incidents from recent years. Among them: the San Bernardino, Calif., shooting two months ago, the Charleston, S.C., church shooting last summer, the Aurora, Co., movie theater shooting and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Conn., both in 2012, and the attempted assassination of an Arizona congresswoman in 2011.

    Republicans and moderate Democrats said the incidents cited weren't relevant to the debate and they rejected the amendments as unnecessary, redundant or an infringement on residents' Second Amendment rights.

    LINK


    Parent
    furthermore, jim (none / 0) (#92)
    by mm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:12:54 AM EST
    accusing me of this,

    attempt to change the subject from radical islam massacres to just where an armed person could have gone in the nightclub.

    is just BS.

    You are the one who made the claim:

    Why are all these killings in  (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:27:56 AM EST

    gun free zones?
     Don't the killers understand? I mean, really. How dare they break the law.

    that the nightclub was a "gun free zone".

    Because as we all know, the NRA/gun lobby answer to gun massacres is more guns in more places.

    I said nothing about Islam, radical or otherwise, and your deflection is offensive.  I was simply addressing your statement which is false.  Sorry.

    Parent

    Pulse was a gun free zone (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:49:11 AM EST
    Sorry that you are so easily offended.

    That's typical.

    Parent

    I'm supposed to believe it (none / 0) (#117)
    by mm on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:20:04 PM EST
    just cause you said so?

    Do you know there was a uniformed policeman inside Pulse at the time who engaged the gunman?

    You made the claim and tried to support it by quoting the law.

    Next you accuse me of "parsing" the words.

    I'm not a lawyer, but I believe lawyers make a pretty good living parsing the language of laws.  The language written into laws is kind of critical.

    Parent

    As I wrote (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:29:37 PM EST
    Pulse was a gun free zone.

    Given that action beats reaction, the chances are high that the perpetrator will neutralize the security first and proceed with impunity. Unless, of course, he or she encounters further armed resistance.

    Specifically, armed civilians. But that wasn't an option here. An Orlando police officer interviewed this morning by Fox News stated that all customers at The Pulse nightclub are patted down as they enter.

    Link

    So that proves that:

    12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose

    applied. And that was:

    The Lounge, Ultra Bar and The Adonis Room.

    If you go into a bar or resturnant or nightclub it is obvious that you may go into Any portion.


    Parent

    site violator (none / 0) (#18)
    by fishcamp on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:13:01 AM EST


    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:44:58 AM EST
    You are not very good at this fish.

    Howdy...check the times. (none / 0) (#134)
    by fishcamp on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:49:27 PM EST
    NYTimes (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:17:08 PM EST
    Aspen Times
    High Times

    Checking

    Parent

    Podhoretz: Use Islamophobia to Push Gun Control (none / 0) (#33)
    by RickyJim on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:31:40 AM EST
    True to form, the president spoke more words about the scourge of guns than about the threat of terror. In doing so, he actually retards rather than advances the cause of gun control he so passionately advocates.

    A president totally and credibly committed to the destruction of ISIS and other terror groups seeking to bring the war to us might earn the political and moral capital to seek more extensive limits on gun ownership.

    A president who cannot name the enemy even as he anthropomorphizes the weapon the enemy uses is a president unable to bring anyone to his side who's not already there.


    Link

    News Flash! (2.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:42:09 AM EST
    Obama actually said "ISIS."

    But he couldn't get "radical islamist" out. And he did revisit his tired old gun control cries.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:49:31 AM EST
    in the airy fairy world of conservatives just saying the magic words will return Dorothy to Kansas and make the entire world right again.

    It's all about saying those magic words but somehow voting to allow terrorists to have assault weapons by Republicans doesn't matter. You guys are just bizarre.

    Parent

    Good gosh (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:01:20 PM EST
    It's all about saying those magic words but somehow voting to allow terrorists to have assault weapons by Republicans doesn't matter.

    I have read many twisted statements from Lefties.

    But conflating supporting the 2nd amendment with allowing radical islamists to have guns tops the list.

    What's next? Claiming the 1st allows human sacrifice????

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:09:19 PM EST
    there was a bill to keep terrorists from getting guns. Your boys in the GOP blocked it because they are too spineless to stand up to the terrorist supporting NRA. Own it and take some responsibility for what you and they have been doing.

    Parent
    The operative word which you leave out (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:50:35 PM EST
    is suspected terrorists.

    What's next? Shall we close down trials??

    You know, I remember you being opposed to the NSA and FICA...

    Rather hypocritical of you.

    Parent

    Meanwhile all you want to do (none / 0) (#137)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:02:12 PM EST
    is trash the establishment clause by banning an entire religion..

    So, just as long as they're just suspected terrorists, they should be allowed to travel to God's Wrath, South Carolina and load up on guns and ammo from a so-called "private seller"?

    How considerate of you.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:07:03 PM EST
    for admitting that this particular guy getting a gun is a good thing in your mind. We all need to remember that the same people like you Jim who are screaming that everybody needs to be afraid of Muslims are the same people making sure that Muslims get all the assault weapons they want.

    Heck "suspected" terrorists can't fly on a plane but you think they should be able to load up an arsenal of assault weapons.

    Do you realize how completely bizarre your way of thinking is?

    Parent

    The no fly list and terror watch list (none / 0) (#141)
    by leftwig on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:19:59 PM EST
    are not one in the same.  The later has about 20 times as many names on it.

    Parent
    There was a bill in the Senate (none / 0) (#140)
    by leftwig on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:17:18 PM EST
    to block the sale of guns to those on the terror watch list for 72 hours so that the gov't could present the case before a court as to why they feel the individual should not be able to purchase a firearm.  That bill was not blocked by the GOP.  One can get on a terror watch list without judicial review and I believe there are over 1 million individuals on the terror watch list and while no actual number of US citizens and legal residents is known, its estimated to be about 5% of the list.  I would think that if you are going to take away a Constitutionally protected right of an American citizen to purchase a firearm, then a court should decide the legality of it.

    If the person isn't a citizen of the US, then by all means prevent them from buying/owning a gun.

    Parent

    Agreed (none / 0) (#189)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:06:07 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/jrra79x

    If the government can revoke your right to access firearms simply because it has decided to place you on a secret, notoriously inaccurate list, it could presumably restrict your other rights in a similar manner. You could be forbidden from advocating for causes you believe in, or associating with like-minded activists; your right against intrusive, unreasonable searches could be suspended. And you would have no recourse: The government could simply declare that, as a name on a covert list, you are owed no due process at all.


    Parent
    So exacly what policy change follows from using (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:52:18 AM EST
    those words? what are you advocating?

    I am sooo sick of that talking point.

    Parent

    Oh, my (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:39:57 AM EST
    the same people who have been pushing Islamophobia for years are now having to eat their own words. This is becoming conservatives worst nightmare for sure.

    Parent
    Shares down (none / 0) (#55)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 09:55:47 AM EST
    about six percent at the London stock market this morning for G4S Security--the multinational British private security firm.

     According to the NYTimes, G4S, the employer of Mateen, did not respond to questions about whether the company knew about the two FBI investigations, or whether it took any action as a result.  Nor, did it respond to questions raised by one of his former co-workers who said that he had presented concerns to G4S when they both worked as security guards at the PGA Village, a golf resort in Port St. Lucie. Mateen talked about killing people all the time, said the former worker, Daniel Gilroy.

    Most security firms require their guards to undergo a security check, especially of concern, for a security firm that outsources justice services. G4S has been a nominee for a "public eye" award, a counter-event by NGOs which awards the worst security firm of the year.  

    This is the biggest (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:28:30 AM EST
    Question mark in this whole deal.  Is it any wonder that we can't even slow these mass killings when security firms that allegedly do BG checks can't even apparently see or act on this stuff.

    Very scary.

    Parent

    Very odd to see your home city being described (none / 0) (#76)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:32:56 AM EST
    buy the national media. All in all in the basic descriptions from what I have seen they have done a pretty good job.

    One thing that may not always be clear is that Pulse is not in the heart of downtown. Actually it should be clear from the video that it is more of a small business strip than the high rise downtown  area. It is a couple of miles south of there, still on the main drag, Orange Ave.  If the killer was looking for a general place with lots of club goers, the main downtown area would have been a more obvious choice.  What that means to me is that either that club was specifically targeted for its clientele, or it could be that its location, with parking co-located with the club, was more convenient.  In the main downtown area, you either have to park in a garage, or look for a place on the street near where you want to be. Not convenient for toting weapons.

    Also I have heard that the leaders of the new performing arts center have suggested people can use their beautiful new front lawn area for a memorial site, since the Pulse site is still a crime scene. This is a centrally located downtown site a mile or so north of Pulse. Very generous and fitting offer, given the support expressed from the Broadway performing arts community last night.

    Grading the local news affiliates...the CBS team did well....NBC - ugh, just very dumbed down. Did not see ABC.

    Local political leaders have been fine with the exception of Gov Scott, who is just so frenetic and inherent I can never even make sense of the words out of his mouth. He basically says nothing. VP material!

    See the old sat open (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:45:37 AM EST
    For tv

    Parent
    I'll add...the weather yesterday was typcial June (none / 0) (#104)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:51:12 AM EST
    In the 90's, high humidity...I can't imagine how horrible it was processing that crime scene yesterday, on every possible level.

    Kudos to those folks.  

    Parent

    How can only 29 of the 50 dead (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:49:12 AM EST
    Have been identified?  I just heard that.  

    I thought I heard on NPR this morning that (none / 0) (#106)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:55:04 AM EST
    all but 1 had been identified, but they have not notified all of the next of kin. They put them on the list on the web site when the next of kin have been notified.

    So scary looking at names from an event like this, knowing it is possible I know someone. I checked that the couple of people I know here at work are present, so that was a relief.

    Parent

    I am a little worried about who Florida (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:26:05 PM EST
    authorities will notify as "next of kin" in the case of adult gay men who were killed. I fear there will be many parents from whom the victims may have been estranged, rather than partners who are more difficult to identify and locate, if they did not choose in the last year or so to marry.

    Parent
    Great point (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:29:53 PM EST
    As well as some who might be surprised they were there

    Parent
    I just hope (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:35:31 PM EST
    none of these victims end up have a family that is so unloving that they do not at least have a service for the deceased. That would be a double tragedy.

    Parent
    Yes, I worry about that too (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:58:05 PM EST
    Also if these men and women were not out to their families, or were and were estranged, it does make the situation very fraught. I just hope those cases will get resolved with respectful memorials for diseased. If family is not available I hope that friends will step up to make sure that happens. Part of the funds being raised should be used to make sure, if that is an issue.

    Parent
    I am pretty sure you meant deceased. (none / 0) (#129)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:33:01 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    oh gees. Yes I did. Thanks! (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:00:57 PM EST
    I don't like to think (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 11:59:22 AM EST
    About why identification is challenging. Remember how it went with Sandy Hook? Probably same thing.

    Parent
    Macabre. (none / 0) (#121)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:26:19 PM EST
    Police and other investigators needed to work among the corpses with their cell phones going off. Desperate family and friends trying to reach their loved ones.

    Parent
    Talking to a coworker who's son knows people that (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 03:49:56 PM EST
    were there. Your suspicions are correct re ID.

    Her son was supposed to go there with his friends but he had a headache so went home to bed. She was on her way to the site in the wee hours after someone called her, and she could not get in touch with her son, when she got a groggy phone call from her son who was home asleep until he got her frantic calls. He knew two of the deceased and others that are injured. Other people here also know some of the people.

    It's not a huge town.

    Parent

    Awful (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:39:21 PM EST
    So sorry ruff, sorry about the grief and shock you all to varying degrees must somehow get through.

    Parent
    In this headline, by 'identfy' they (none / 0) (#109)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:01:11 PM EST
    mean publicly identify....They have released 39 names. Only 1 remains unknown to the authorities.

    Parent
    *36 (none / 0) (#111)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:01:46 PM EST
    Thanks (none / 0) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:12:30 PM EST
    Still.  Tough on non family members and friends.  If they are waiting.

    Parent
    I read that they have changed the number of (none / 0) (#116)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 12:14:38 PM EST
    victims dead to 49. The 50th was the gunman.

    Parent
    Incredibly ignorant (none / 0) (#133)
    by Redbrow on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 01:45:18 PM EST
    Ther is only one islam.

    There is only one quran and it plainly states homosexulaity is an abomination ro be punished by death.

    Anyone who claims to be a muslim does who not believe and follow every wod of allah's direct words in the perfect infallible quran is an apostate who must be killed by true muslims.

    As silly as saying there is only one (5.00 / 5) (#146)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:56:29 PM EST
    "Christianity" because there is only one Bible, which (according to you) "plainly" says in Leviticus whatever you interpret it as "plainly" saying. That's why the Mennonites and the Metropolitan Church, and the Catholics and the southern Baptists, and the Lutherans and the Quakers are all going to church together (not). And only one Judaism, because there is only one Torah, which is why the Reconstructionists and the Lubavitchers have so much in common (not).

    Parent
    There is more than one interpretation (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:54:10 PM EST
    In religious scriptures, in our Constitution, in history, there are always competing interpretations on concepts and words ... or, haven't you noticed that language is not as precise as physics.

    Parent
    How sad that ... (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:03:28 PM EST
    ... you and others on the right would prefer to indulge and embrace your own self-induced paranoia about "The Other," while simultaneously ignoring the very real risks which arise due to your own willful ignorance. Sadly, there are enough unbalanced people out there who for whatever reason want to kill, and yet NRA and its ranks of apologists make it easy for them to get their hands on war-grade weaponry because "Freedom!"

    Parent
    There is only one Islam.. (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 02:14:56 PM EST
    spoken like a true dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist Imam..

    So, there's no possibility that some Muslims interpret the Koran more humanistically, and don't stone adulteresses, the way people who study the Old Testament don't burn witches?  

    Parent

    OT: Just read that Trump has revoked (none / 0) (#163)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:25:56 PM EST
    the press credentials of the Washington Post.
    The man is nuts.

    His afternoon (none / 0) (#166)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:42:49 PM EST
    Speech on this was fascinating.  All the usual nonsense about Muslim hate but it was interesting how strongly he came out for letting the gays be gay.   I guess this is how the veterans felt about being used and a political pawn.   It's very conflicting to see a republican candidate advocate ideas and even use words I don't think I have ever heard one use before all the while knowing he doesn't give a rats ass about me or my rights beyond their being useful in terms of short term political points.

     

    Parent

    I did not hear his speech. I have been reading (5.00 / 5) (#170)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 04:56:29 PM EST
    Armando's tweets and he basically kept saying that the speech was incoherent.

    I absolutely cannot stand the sound of Trump's voice or bear to look at the roadkill topped freaky Jack o lantern that passes for his face, so I stick to reading whatever spews from his mouth. That alone is enough to keep me incensed for hours/days/...

    Parent

    Basically (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:27:01 PM EST
    Trump is the male version of Sarah Palin serving up word salads.

    Parent
    Incoherent (none / 0) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:03:50 PM EST
    Is a good word.  I was just doing stuff and had it on.  But I feel pretty much the same way.  But I was very curious how he would play this.   It was interesting.

    After all this is a gift for him.  It bumps the Trump in tailspin story.  

    Parent

    How nice that Trump would allow gays ... (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:38:22 PM EST
    ... to simply be, as though they somehow needed the far right's permission or it were some sort of revolutionary dynamic being put into play. Gotta give the guy serious props for having elevated patronization into an abstract art form.

    Parent
    That'll get him better coverage by the Post (none / 0) (#178)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:49:47 PM EST
    The campaign (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 05:59:36 PM EST
    Just released a statement about it.  They are very upset about this story saying Trum seems to link Obama to the Oralando shooting.  They say it's a lie he never said that etc etc here's what he said.  You decide-

    Donald Trump seemed to repeatedly accuse President Obama on Monday of identifying with radicalized Muslims who have carried out terrorist attacks in the United States and being complicit in the mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando over the weekend, the worst the country has ever seen.
    "Look, we're led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he's got something else in mind," Trump said in a lengthy interview on Fox News early Monday morning. "And the something else in mind -- you know, people can't believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can't even mention the words 'radical Islamic terrorism.' There's something going on. It's inconceivable. There's something going on."
    In that same interview, Trump was asked to explain why he called for Obama to resign in light of the shooting and he answered, in part: "He doesn't get it or he gets it better than anybody understands -- it's one or the other, and either one is unacceptable."


    Parent
    Do we have numbers for (none / 0) (#186)
    by smott on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 06:39:50 PM EST
    terrorism attacks worldwide?
    How much perpetrated by Muslims vs other religions?

    My bet is in US, Christian home grown terrorism leads the numbers.

    But I wonder the stats worldwide.

    i have a question (none / 0) (#199)
    by linea on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:39:18 PM EST
    do threads lock after 200 posts? because i wanted to reply to Militarytracy in the open thread but there is no "reply to this" link on her post.

    Yes (none / 0) (#203)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:44:00 PM EST
    Capt, yes, I am sure he would say that (none / 0) (#205)
    by vml68 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 07:55:42 PM EST
    he was doing "research", you know, "for a friend" :-)

    You're talking in specious generalities. (none / 0) (#206)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:07:11 PM EST
    TrevorBolder: "You are just Plain silly at times. Verbal mumbo jumbo[.] Profiling. Is what insurance companies do, to mitigate risk."

    We're not discussing insurance companies. It's pretty clear that you haven't the vaguest idea what Israelis do in regard to their security. And further, I would note that for all the extensive steps they do take, they still weren't able to prevent two guys from the West Bank from recently shooting up an outdoor mall in Tel Aviv, which so happens to be located right next to the country's Defense Ministry. If we want to listen to right-wing talking points masquerading as pseudo-expertise, we'll tune into the clowns on Fox News ourselves. We don't need you to act as interpreter.

    Oh mighty protector (none / 0) (#207)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 08:15:34 PM EST
    Of the blog.
    You do love the sound of your own voice.
    I am talking in specifics, how to effectively manage limited resources to a problem.
    Insurance companies do it,
    Law enforcement used to.
    And Israel airport security, I can't believe you couldn't come up with anything better than I haven't the vaguest.
    You ever hear of this thing called Google.
    Try it sometime.

    smott, you asked for reports on terrorism (none / 0) (#208)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 13, 2016 at 10:32:33 PM EST
    Here is the U.S. State Department page where you can find their annual "Country Reports on Terrorism" for the past eleven years.  Before that, the reports were published in a different format and with a different name.


    From people magazine (none / 0) (#209)
    by Redbrow on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 12:03:35 AM EST
    Omar Mateen and his wife, Noor Zahi Salman, visited Walt Disney World in April, the source says. Salman told federal authorities on Sunday that her husband had more recently been "scouting Downtown Disney and Pulse [nightclub] for attacks."

    Up yours, donald.

    Here's the link to that People magazine (none / 0) (#210)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 05:52:49 AM EST
    story.  It is vague about the source of the central allegation.  Seems to say that Omar made his pledge of loyalty online "in the week before."

    The wife's name does not yet show up in a search of the New York Times stories; they won't run a story until it has been verified.

    The Miami Herald published this profile of Omar's life last night.  It shows evidence of real shoe leather reporting.

    This is (none / 0) (#211)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 06:32:15 AM EST
    an amazing piece of work by a conservative who finally agrees with everything liberals have been saying about the GOP for quite a while link

    Lists... (none / 0) (#213)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 07:24:44 AM EST
    We are hearing that the shooter (none / 0) (#214)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 08:58:13 AM EST
    Had a bump stock on the AR-15. Anyone else?

    What MT is (none / 0) (#215)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 09:04:59 AM EST
    talking about.  BumpFiring.

    That video will give you pause.

    FWIW, MT, in the cellphone audio I heard, the guy was pulling the trigger one round at a time.

    It was not ecen an AR-15 (none / 0) (#217)
    by Redbrow on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 03:00:12 PM EST
    Military Tracy, it was a Sig Sauer MCX rifle which has no parts in common with an AR-15 except for magazines.

    When the media or president cannot even get this simple fact right, you no we are being sppon fed propaganda.

    Don't allow yourself to be brainwashed so easily.

    Thank You Anderson Cooper (none / 0) (#218)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 03:38:38 PM EST
    In which AC exposes the idiocy of our FL AG Pam Bondi.

    The Sig Sauer MCX is also an assault style (none / 0) (#219)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 14, 2016 at 07:37:16 PM EST
    Weapon and there is a bump stock that can be added to that assault rifle too.