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Pentagon Says We're Starting to Win in Mosul

A live press conference with Gen. Carter on Iraq and Syria with the Pentagon is taking place here. Carter says the tide is turning and we've blocked off the main routes between Northern Iraq and Syria. He says we targeted and killed top ISIS leaders.

American forces are there advising and supporting Iraqi. There will be increased support for Iraqis in Mosul. We will advise and enable.Carter and others will be asking Obama to increase the number of U.S. troops going to Iraq to "advise' the Iraqis.

Yet he denies it's a ground troops operation. Denies it's a fundamental shift. Reporters are skeptical and keep asking how this is different from a ground war. It's a pretty permanent position. The U.S. military is directly involved with the Iraqis. This is what we've been doing in the past months and what we'll be doing in the coming months. What started in Ramadi will continue to Mosul. This is our strategy.

He's arguing for an alternative prison to Gitmo saying it's not safe to release Gitmo

A reporter says there are 5,000 troops on the ground in Iraq. Carter says 3,800. The difference is in the counting techniques. There's more than 3,800 he admits.

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  • Display: Sort:
    How did we (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 08:54:18 AM EST
    change the culture and establish a democracy in Japan and Germany??

    I think winning WWII and occupying had a lot to do with it.

    Obama doesn't want to fight. Period. He said so before he was elected. He doesn't think radical islam is an existential threat to us and he sees the west as a group of ex-colonial countries that must be punished.

    So the flood of Muslim "refugees" into Europe works for him and he wants to bring more into the US.

    The current situation is nothing (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 01:47:07 PM EST
    whatsoever like WWII.

    Unrepentant neocon wannabes evoke WWII the way Ted Cruz's pastor evokes Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

    Parent

    Yes and no (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 03:32:33 PM EST
    in both cases a virulent "ism" was/is involved.

    In WWII the "ism" invaded other countries, made wide appeals to the young, killed millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and the mentality and physically challenged. The "ism" also had cells throughout the world including the US and England. There were many debates over how dangerous the "ismS" were and there was a proxy war in Spain.

    One "ism" even invaded the other "ism." After one "ism" attacked the US we even used the other "ism" as a partner.

    Our response was to almost totally destroy the infrastructure. Even to the point of near starvation. The "leaders" were largely removed down to the county/town levels and many executed. The installed governments and resulting societies and cultures met our approval. And we stayed.

    If you go back to the "isms" paragraphs you can easily substitute "radical islamism" or "al Qaeda" or "ISIS."

    What I have noted before is that Obama,you and many others on the Left, do not see radical islamism as an existential threat and oppose any real military opposition. You deny the attacks, try and blame the victims. Ironically it was the Repubs back in the day who claimed we could deal with the German and Italian "ism" and the Democrats who were close to the splinter groups who supported the Soviet's. It took a war but at least the Repubs learned.

    I've never heard Cruz's preacher and I suspect you haven't. But if he is quoting the Old Testament as anything but history, parables and prophecies he should not. The OT was fulfilled with the the birth, life, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ. Christians are under the New Testament.

    But there are similarities between the Old Testament and parts of the Koran.  One of the basic differences between the two religions is that Christ taught peace and love. Mohammed was a warrior and Islam was spread through war and conquest. Yes, it has been a very long war.

    Parent

    I see what Obama says and (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 09:43:51 AM EST
    What he does as often two different things when it comes to fighting. He is obviously fighting, quietly, covertly. Let's not forget how successful "Bring it on!" was.

    Parent
    Quietly, covertly and unsuccessfuly (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 01:33:36 PM EST
     and unsuccessfully.

    Parent
    You have zero evidence of that jim (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 02:19:23 PM EST
    In fact all existing evidence says otherwise

    Parent
    You are mistaking a battle (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 03:18:10 PM EST
    for a war.

    Remember. We never lost a battle in Vietnam.

    It was a very long war.

    This one is even longer.

    Parent

    Since January all news coming (none / 0) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 03:33:38 PM EST
    Out of ISIS territory is that the organization is being defeated and as the pressure rises it is at times self imploding due to paranoia.

    I don't known what Vietnam has to do with a terrorist group in 2016, only you can make such equivalencies.

    Parent

    Try this (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 08:22:43 PM EST
    The war of Islamic expansion has been going on since Mohammed founded it.

    It has been a very long war and continues. ISIS is just one phase.

    Same with Vietnam. The North knew if the persisted they could lose every battle and win the political war. And they did.

    The question is, will the radical islamists??

    Parent

    The war of Christian expansion has been going on (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 08:11:24 AM EST
    Since Jesus founded it

    It has been a very long war and continues. Focus on the Family is just one phase.

    Same with Vietnam. The North knew if the persisted they could lose every battle and win the political war. And they did.

    The question is, will the radical christians?? 

    Parent

    Well,it looks like (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 08:52:45 AM EST
    secular atheists are in the lead right now.

    Of course the Christians have been quite peaceful for years and years and years.

    That's one of the differences between radical islam and christianity.

    MT, ISIS is a country. It controls territory the size of England. It has a domestic policy. It is an Islamic Theocracy. It has a legal system. Sharia Law. It has a foreign policy and is pursuing that policy through actual war as well as launching terrorist attacks around the world. And it is growing in influence through the use of the internet and other media.

    Parent

    ISIS isn't a country jim (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 09:00:42 AM EST
    Yer just Killin me man. It's an ideology that makes extravagant claims that it has a country, the same way the Evangelicals keep beating their fists against table tops that the US is a Christian nation.

    And as far as theocratic takeover of my country goes, as you pointed out it's a long war and being down in the polls is no indication that the war is over.

    Parent

    Well, glad to see (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 09:51:06 AM EST
    that, at last, you understand the concept of long wars, even if you seem to not understand that radcal islam has been,and is, engaged in one for hundreds and hundreds of years. Islam has been spread, by and large, by war and conquest and that continues to this day.

    Parent
    Can you name any reputable (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 10:46:08 AM EST
    military strategists of influence and experience anywhere that have proposed massive bombing campaigns and an "invade, occupy, and hold" plan for the U.S and it's allies of WWII scale?

    Give us some names, Jim.

    Parent

    Please upload this complete essay (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 10:18:32 AM EST
    J allows you to put your own real work up. I need to read this essay or thesis please.

    Parent
    If you do not understand that (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    radical islamists have been engaged in a very long war as a method of spreading Islam and establishing a Caliphate there is little I can do for you.

    ISIS is not new. It is just the latest eruption.

    Here's some info. But to be fair, the Christians weren't very nice although they weren't invading Africa, India, etc.

    link

    link


    Parent

    Pfft (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 12:40:29 PM EST
    Christians weren't very nice although they weren't invading Africa, India, etc.

    I'm sure that was a great comfort to the piles of resulting dead.

    As I'm sure it was when the "civilized" north and South America and the rest of the "uncivilized" world.

    Sometime I'm sure you are a humor troll.   Then I realize you are just a troll.

    Parent

    Still waiting for those names (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 01:56:45 PM EST
    General Patton.

    Parent
    Hey, but Nathan Deal vetoed (none / 0) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 09:17:14 AM EST
    Cuz money

    But the war continues :)

    Parent

    And I Reject It (none / 0) (#67)
    by RickyJim on Tue Mar 29, 2016 at 09:33:56 AM EST
    What Islamic expansion has there been in modern times?  What previously non Muslim areas have been conquered by Islam?  Tell us about the US's problems with the Muslim world before Harry Truman recognized Israel.  

    Parent
    It would be marvelous (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 10:56:55 AM EST
    if the real world actually jibed with the fairytale fantasy realm of
    right wing talk radio and we could somehow change the minds of widely dispersed, hidden cells of militants  by simultaneously "occuping" Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE and various scattered smaller communities and neighborhoods across the globe..

    That would prove Obama wants to fight and doesn't secretly want America to be attacked to appease his dead Kenyan father.

    Parent

    Let me see... (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 02:16:57 PM EST
    Do you really think the radical islamist can be defeated without taking and holding "ground" long enough for the moderates to come together and establish secular governments that accept and provide basic human rights??

    And that this includes rejecting terrorism and terrorists that may exist inside and outside their countries?

    I wish it could happen.  I wish that the moderates would and could shut down the terrorists. But the facts are that they haven't. Why that is true is open for discussion but the results, or lack of results, speak for themselves.

    Could it be that the Pew poll that shows 21% of Muslims in America support extremism is correct?

    And what is the reason that, even in the most friendly non-Islamic country, the US...the FBI has investigations re young Muslims supporting ISIS and/or other terrorist organizations in all 50 states?

    And why do we have riots in Germany and other European countries that have opened their doors to the so-called "Syrian refugees?" Why do many cities have so-called "no go zones" for none Muslims? (Actually they should be called "reluctant to go zones" for even the police.)

    There is something there, dear jondee. And while I agree it will be difficult to round up and root out the radical islamists, unless we deny them ground and space we cannot win.

    That Bush failed and Obama has failed doesn't mean we quit trying.

    Parent

    Let's See Jim... (none / 0) (#60)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 11:23:25 AM EST
    ... a couple things off hand we would never instill in 2016:
    • nuclear bombs on civilian populations
    • the draft
    • mobilizing our non-existent manufacturing for war
    • 400,000 US casualties
    • Tens of trillions in today's dollars

    70 year old models do not work in the modern area.  I get that you, like most, like the results of WWII, but that kind of thinking isn't going to defeat ISIS, it can't.

    There is also the issue of ISIS not being contained by borders and/or governments.  They do not fit the WWII Axis country mold, their regions are malleable, their goals different, their entire 'battle' plan is asymmetrical, and the internet allows them to communicate/recruit from anywhere in the world.  Using WWII models ends with us invading a country for oil, and the former military leadership of that country spring-boarding ISIS.  

    That is a perfect example of exactly what not to do, which is believe that we can invade a country in the ME and install democracy and wipout global terrorism.  It had the exact opposite effect.

    Not sure why people who have nothing to do with anything are being blamed.  Refugees just want to live and raise their families in a place that isn't the middle of a war zone.  Stop picking on the people with absolutely nothing, not even a country.

    Parent

    Always skeptical when ... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 10:32:56 AM EST
    a general says "the tide is turning".

    Tides turn twice a day (none / 0) (#6)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 05:31:41 PM EST
    on most of this wartorn planet.

    Parent
    Not in ... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 09:06:52 PM EST
    a quagmire.

    Parent
    lol. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 10:08:57 PM EST
    or quicksand.

    Parent
    at least he didn't say that there's a light (none / 0) (#2)
    by cpinva on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 10:34:33 AM EST
    at the end of the tunnel. one can't help but notice the striking parallels between our current situation in Iraq (American military "advisors"), and the situation in Vietnam, when LBJ entered the white house, only kind of reversed. I see this going on for the next decade, and the number of American "advisors" slowly creeping up.

    "we'll be doing in the coming months." (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 10:39:22 AM EST
    Coming years I would think.

    Carter is on the record saying years (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 06:25:24 PM EST
    Obama too

    Parent
    Graeme Wood (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 06:43:34 PM EST
    Who wrote a long piece for the Atlantic titled What ISIS Really Wants that I linked to in one of these threads and J said she had also written about recently said in a conversation I saw it would be a "generational" struggle.

    Easy to believe since its been going on for some number of millennia.

    Parent

    From what I understand (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 06:47:02 PM EST
    One of our goals is to take away the lands that feed their Armageddon complex credentials and the end of times Jihadist mindset.

    Parent
    I Would Have Preferred (none / 0) (#4)
    by RickyJim on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 11:58:26 AM EST
    that the general would have given an analysis of why  it is so easy to recruit young Muslim men and women to commit suicide bombings against western targets and why that will no longer be the case in the future.  If they call themselves something else then besides ISIS, does it make a difference?  Of course it would be nice if they wouldn't kill each other in the Muslim world but first things first.

    Transcript of (none / 0) (#5)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 05:26:05 PM EST
    Not so much in (none / 0) (#7)
    by ragebot on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 06:50:14 PM EST
    Great Moments in Number 2 becomes History, (none / 0) (#8)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 06:57:40 PM EST
    History.

    March 25, 2016 - Haji Imam -- aka Abd al-Rahman Muhammad Mustafa al-Qaduli HufPost: ISIS' Second-In-Command Killed In Syria Raid

    May 13, 2015 - Abu Alaa al-Afari, aka Abdul Rahman Mustafa Mohammed
    Mirror: ISIS second in command killed in coalition air strike on Iraq mosque

    Jun 17, 2015 - Nasir al-Wahishi
    USA Today: Al-Qaeda second-in-command killed in U.S. airstrike

    Aug 21, 2015 - Fadhil Ahmad al-Hayali
    ABC News: ISIS Second in Command Killed by US Airstrike, White House Says

    Oct 13, 2015 - Abu Mutaz al-Qurashi
    Daily Mail: Isis confirm second in command was killed by US air strike earlier this year

    What's the over-under line on Friedman units? (none / 0) (#9)
    by scribe on Fri Mar 25, 2016 at 08:40:45 PM EST
    I'm saying 6 1/2 and I'll take the over.
    6 makes a good three-year tour for the good general, and then off to retirement and some other sucker gets to deal with it.

    So we are at 5,000 now (none / 0) (#12)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 07:17:02 AM EST
    Damn,

    Would have been nice to leave those 10k troops behind n Iraq,

    This ISIS mess never would have happened

    http://tinyurl.com/qyyqekq

    In August of 2002, as George W. Bush and his allies were building the case for regime change in Iraq, Scowcroft warned in a Wall Street Journal op-ed that an attack on Iraq "would seriously jeopardize, if not destroy, the global counterterrorist campaign we have undertaken." Though Scowcroft was confident that the U.S. could succeed in destroying Saddam's regime, he was also confident that military action would be expensive and bloody, and that it "very likely would have to be followed by a large-scale, long-term military occupation." As we all know, Scowcroft's warning went unheeded by the Bush White House.

    Scowcroft offered another warning in America and the World, a widely ignored book published in 2008 that collected a series of exchanges between Scowcroft and his fellow foreign policy wise man Zbigniew Brzezinski. Recognizing that Iraq remained riven by communal conflict, Scowcroft argued that the country would continue to need a U.S. military presence for at least a few more years.

    A

    s Scowcroft explained to Voice of America News in January of 2012, just weeks after withdrawal was complete, Iraq's political leadership still needed to learn to make compromises among various ethnic, sectarian, and ideological factions. And in his view, "those compromises are probably easier to make in the embrace of a U.S. presence." The end of the U.S. presence meant that these compromises were less likely, and that a war of all against all was much more likely.

    It is important to emphasize that Scowcroft was not calling for a permanent U.S. presence in Iraq. Rather, he believed that the post-Saddam Iraqi state needed time to get on its feet, and its new elected rulers needed time and breathing room to repair trust among communities that had spent so long at each other's throats.



    As someone who sent care (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 05:34:04 PM EST
    Packages to my spouse in Iraq, I can't say bullshit enough times to your uneducated opinion. He spent the first year of the Iraq War in the Sunni triangle...where AQ in Iraq and ISIS were born. Even with the entire 3rd ACR covering the Sunni Triangle they couldn't stop fighters from other countries crossing in and joining. It was absolutely impossible!

    Parent
    Why do (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 07:25:44 AM EST
    you hate the military Trevor?

    Parent
    I feel bad (none / 0) (#14)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:00:04 AM EST
    For the 5k put back in there now, in a active war zone, and those yet to arrive there

    When 10k left there to keep the peace, would have been in a far less dangerous environment that is there now.

    The same principle that we applied in Korea, Germany and Japan after those wars should have been used in Iraq.

    Parent

    I should just stop reading (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 06:41:53 PM EST
    Your comments because they're so stupid, but let's get into the way back machine and remember that the day Bush left office our military readiness had been destroyed.

    It has since been rebuilt.

    10,000 would not have been peaceful at all.

    You have 30,000 troops next door in Kuwait. ISIS doesn't seem to be afraid.

    Korea, Germany, Japan...all completely different situations. Well, we did apply something called debaathification and imprisoned people simply for party affiliations. We even tortured some to death looking for WMDS that didn't exist. So we have a certain lack of ethics that once upon a time Germany could identify with. Let's remember though that in the end they lost.

    Parent

    Noted right wing columnist (none / 0) (#35)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 06:43:38 AM EST
    Peter Beinart, explains it

    http://tinyurl.com/pwsvb8b

    Yes, the Iraq War was a disaster of historic proportions. Yes, seeing its architects return to prime time to smugly slam President Obama while taking no responsibility for their own, far greater, failures is infuriating.

    But sooner or later, honest liberals will have to admit that Obama's Iraq policy has been a disaster. Since the president took office, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has grown ever more tyrannical and ever more sectarian, driving his country's Sunnis toward revolt. Since Obama took office, Iraq watchers--including those within his own administration--have warned that unless the United States pushed hard for inclusive government, the country would slide back into civil war. Yet the White House has been so eager to put Iraq in America's rearview mirror that, publicly at least, it has given Maliki an almost-free pass. Until now, when it may be too late.

    Obama inherited an Iraq where better security had created an opportunity for better government
    . The Bush administration's troop "surge" did not solve the country's underlying divisions. But by retaking Sunni areas from insurgents, it gave Iraq's politicians the chance to forge a government inclusive enough to keep the country together.

    "American diplomats in Iraq sent a rare dissenting cable to Washington, complaining that the U.S., with its combination of support and indifference, was encouraging Maliki's authoritarian tendencies."

    The problem is that it took Obama five years to publicly say so--or do anything about it--despite pleas from numerous Iraq experts, some close to his own administration. This inaction was abetted by American journalists. Many of us proved strikingly indifferent to a country about which we once claimed to care deeply.

    In recent days, many liberals have rushed to Obama's defense simply because they are so galled to hear people like Dick Cheney and Bill Kristol lecturing anyone on Iraq. That's a mistake. While far less egregious than George W. Bush's errors, Obama's have been egregious enough. By ignoring Iraq, and refusing to defend democratic principles there, he has helped spawn the disaster we see today.

    It's time people who aren't Republican operatives began saying so.



    Parent
    You will never be allowed to say that (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 08:42:39 AM EST
    Obama could have fixed Bush's mistake without the usual suspects vehemently disagreeing.

    But it is nice to see some facts on display.

    Parent

    Nobody can (none / 0) (#42)
    by FlJoe on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 10:32:16 AM EST
    ever explain how Obama could have fixed a multi trillion dollar decade long "mistake" with a handful of troops and a shoestring budget.

    For all your disparaging of Obama, you demand that he pulls some kind of miracle, expecting him to single handedly force the Shia and Sunni to put away centuries of mutual hatred.

    For over a millennium neither time nor tyranny nor the march of empires has managed to permanently erase the underlying problems in the Levant. It is the height of arrogance to insist that one man,  one nation or even the whole world can produce a simple or quick solution.

     

    Parent

    Acknowledgement is Step 1 (none / 0) (#61)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 11:51:56 AM EST
    Bush's mistake


    Parent
    One step forward (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 12:09:57 PM EST
    and three steps backward..

    They're finally getting around to acknowledging Bush was wrong, and now their newest plan is to nominate someone even more inexperienced and reckless than Bush was.

    Parent

    It wasn't Obummer who turned (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 09:57:34 AM EST
    Iraq over to members of the Dawa party. That was the Bush administration. Years ago, probably on this website, I was upset that the Bush administration turned Saddam over to the Dawa party. Our state department had them listed as a terrorist organization. I couldn't understand why the Bush administration would choose the other thugs in the neighborhood to take care of thug Saddam. I was still naive to how truly evil and corrupt and unethical the Bush crew was.

    The Bush administration put Dawa in power, I guess they figured THESE thugs would become the thugs that would lead to their oil payoff. But it was George W Bush who placed Iraq squarely on scorched earth for likely the rest of my life.

    There wasn't better security in Iraq when Obama came in. Our troops had completely pulled back into heavily fortified positions and they hadn't been outside the wire much in a year.

    The embassy was mortared daily. They had to build the embassy in Iraq to impenetrable fortress specs.

    Parent

    Nobody (none / 0) (#17)
    by FlJoe on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:42:55 AM EST
    ever explained to me how 10k troops would have changed the arc of history in a country of 37 million, with tens of thousands of them armed to the teeth, all grouped into multiple factions who have been hating on each other for centuries.

    It is impossible.

    Parent

    We (none / 0) (#19)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:51:34 AM EST
    Would not have let the Sunni's to be thrown to the wolves
    We would have maintained influence, not let Iraq become a satellite state of Iran
    Keeping the Sunni's in Iraq prevents ISIS from ever forming
    What every adviser told Obama , came true.
    Obama thought he was the smartest man in the room, and ignored the advice of every military advise.

    The consensus is already that this was a great mistake, Obama just compounded Bush's mistake

    Parent

    Let (none / 0) (#20)
    by FlJoe on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 10:49:48 AM EST
    me clue you in Trevor, Iraq became a defacto Iranian satellite with the election of Maliki while we had 100k plus troops there, how would leaving 10k behind reverse that?

    Let me clue you in Trevor, the Sunnis were thrown to the wolves the day Saddam fell, with American troops surging up to 180k in an unsuccessful effort to stop this, tell me again how 10k would reverse this, or even mitigate it on a meaningful way.

    You correctly describe the problem as political, but you and many others keep insisting that a relative handful of combat soldiers could somehow "influence" the politics.

    In theory using military force to influence politics in a sovereign nation is a war crime, in practice it's a guaranteed quagmire at best or most likely the unmitigated cluster fk that Bush left behind.

    It's only a consensus of dead enders and neo-con apologists that believe that leaving a token force in the middle of a centuries old conflict would make everything copacetic.  

    Parent

    You had (none / 0) (#21)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 11:01:36 AM EST
    Best clue in the rest of the world also

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:50:20 AM EST
    Iraq is going to be hung around the necks of the GOP for a generation along with George W. Bush. You can continue to defend it and defending it is one of the reasons the GOP is pretty much committing suicide right now.

    Parent
    Sounds like (none / 0) (#15)
    by FlJoe on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:27:59 AM EST
    he was dead on in 2002. By 2008 he was down to working with a "few" double Friedman units.  
    Recognizing that Iraq remained riven by communal conflict, Scowcroft argued that the country would continue to need a U.S. military presence for at least a few more years.
    Notice  how he recognizes this truism  from the dawn of history
    Iraq's political leadership still needed to learn to make compromises among various ethnic, sectarian, and ideological factions.

    To me this  

    "those compromises are probably easier to make in the embrace of a U.S. presence."
    sounds close to "I'll make you an offer you can't refuse" territory.

    Parent
    It might take (none / 0) (#16)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:32:46 AM EST
    Some years after this President is out of office,

    But the consensus will be,

    Bush broke some eggs when invading Iraq,

    Obama, instead of then making an omelet,

    Doubled down and broke even more eggs on his watch

    Parent

    You are already wrong about this (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 05:37:05 PM EST
    Anyone who stayed in uniform and is now standing on the platform teaching the next generation of American soldiers all agree, the biggest phuckup in our lifetimes.

    Parent
    Well... (none / 0) (#22)
    by linea on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 12:58:20 PM EST
    I'm not sure what Obama could have done differently. Removing the bulk of the troops was the right thing for a variety of reasons. Not leaving weapons and equipment behind for ISIS to acquire from Iraqi Army troop? Personnally, I don't feel Obama should be sending "advisors" and special-forces and more weapons - get out and stay out I say. But I'm a minority opinion; most people want Obama to "do something" so I guess he's doing something.  

    Parent
    The consensus will be... (none / 0) (#23)
    by FreakyBeaky on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 01:22:29 PM EST
    ...Invading Iraq was a massive strategic error that destabilized the Middle East for no gain and led directly to the rise of ISIL. Furthermore, it was sold to a skeptical (but fearful) American public as a short, cheap war that would see American liberators greeted with sweets and flowers. Moreover, these untruths undermined public support for a "generational commitment" to a damage-control troop presence and the steady stream of casualties that would inevitably follow. So to did the obvious fact that even America's alleged allies on the ground did not want American troops there - demonstrated clearly by the Iraqi parliament voting them out. Withdrawal, at that point, was the only possible course, as the Bush administration recognized.

    The consensus will also be that a near total lack of support - domestic, congressional, international - for further involvement and severely strained military resources led Obama to a relative hands-off policy emphasizing drones, air strikes, special forces, and local (e.g., Kurdish) militias rather than large American formations - indeed, it was the best of a set of bad options that wisely limited American exposure to casualties and avoided deeper entanglement in the poisonous ethno-religious politics of the region.

    Finally, that defeating ISIL by attrition was the only military strategy available.

    But who cares. History? We'll all be dead.

    Parent

    Yep. (none / 0) (#24)
    by linea on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 01:38:21 PM EST
    I feel this is exacttly right.

    Parent
    Broke some eggs.. (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 11:08:20 AM EST
    that's a nice way of putting it.

    And now, speaking of doubling down, the Right is foisting on us a couple of candidates for President who make Bush look like a combination of Talleyrand and Sun Tzu..

    Parent

    Oh for crying out loud (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 06:22:28 PM EST
    Carter isn't a General for cripes sake. He's Secretary of Defense and an incredible scholar. He's a phycist, other studies...can't remember, and he has been a Harvard professor.

    He is IMO exactly what we need running this show, but he's not a General. In some circles you have just insulted him, in other circles you have just insulted Generals :)

    As a veteran I am sick (none / 0) (#32)
    by NYShooter on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 08:52:19 PM EST
    at the thought of sacrificing our young men & women in uniform for what is really a job our military was never designed to perform. They are trained to destroy the enemy's ability to cause us, or our allies, harm. That has always been accomplished by killing their soldiers, destroying their equipment, and, neutralizing their ability to function.

    Because of the nature of this particular enemy, and those who are similar in the type of asymmetric combat they employ, simply killing soldiers, and destroying equipment, will not bring about the results we want.

    Everybody that matters knows what must be dome. Cutting off their funds & income is the way to, "neutralize their ability to function."

    As long as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, and all the other sympathetic countries & donors are allowed to keep the money spigot going full blast, the death of a single American serviceman should be considered a National disgrace.

    The American people must be told the truth. We're not there to protect innocent lives. We're there to protect the oil deals, and, the arms sales. The sooner the truth is on the table the sooner the American public will be able to make informed decisions.

    I don't know if you would (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 09:58:06 PM EST
    Find it sadder or not, but our military has gone very surgical special forces now. And they are training in our area now too, I guess since Texas went nuts about Jade Helm.

    Our military isn't the military you served in, it isn't even really the military my spouse served in.  It has become something completely different. The people they are sending into this now are all special forces. And that sector of the military is growing.

    Parent

    Thank you for that, Tracy (none / 0) (#34)
    by NYShooter on Sat Mar 26, 2016 at 11:25:40 PM EST
    It does make me feel slightly better. But, it's like a glacier trying to catch up to a jack rabbet.

    I'm glad they're, at least, moving in a more cerebral direction. I feel kind of sorry for the policy managers under the joint chiefs. They're trying to solve "soft" problems using "hard" tactics. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but what I'm trying to say is this: We're trying to protect financial interests using guns and bombs. I'm truly gratified that the Brass is, at least, trying to  come up with ideas that will limit the scope of battlefield carnage, "very surgical special forces," and such.

    It just really sucks that our fighting men and women will be asked to do the work our cowardly & corrupt elected officials refuse to do.  

    Parent

    Absolutely (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 09:39:49 AM EST
    And I see us also attempting to fix all the broken china in the Bush administration disaster that was the Iraq War. Somehow we have to make Iraq and now Syria something more than a war zone.

    We did this, or as you say our politicians did this and our sons and daughters executed those orders, and in the end we did this.

    I think hunting the ISIS leaders over and over again is the only thing we can do. Doing nothing is not an option. And even if Bernie Sanders becomes President, once he looks at all the intel and the global implications, I think we will still be running those missions.

    Parent

    There's a lot of (none / 0) (#40)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Mar 27, 2016 at 09:57:19 AM EST
    wishin' for fishes in the comments here.

    "In Syria, militias armed by the Pentagon (none / 0) (#66)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Mar 28, 2016 at 05:09:34 PM EST
    ... fight those armed by the CIA" - LA Times

    In mid-February, a CIA-armed militia called Fursan al Haq, or Knights of Righteousness, was run out of the town of Marea, about 20 miles north of Aleppo, by Pentagon-backed Syrian Democratic Forces moving in from Kurdish-controlled areas to the east.

    "Any faction that attacks us, regardless from where it gets its support, we will fight it," Maj. Fares Bayoush, a leader of Fursan al Haq, said in an interview.