home

Bernie and a Political Revolution

From Woodstock in 1969 to New Hampshire today... calls for revolution are always popular with the young. But as those of us who are no longer young can attest, we are still waiting for that revolution. And we'll still be waiting in 2020.

I'd rather elect someone who can get things done than someone who promises yet another pie in the sky. I'm way too jaded to believe in Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds. Especially when Lucy is 75 years old and has far fewer political accomplishments than his opponent. A stalled Congress is just not my idea of how to kick off a revolution. (If elected, Sanders will be 76 when he takes office. If you're 50 or younger, you might not see the difference between 68 and 75. But I suspect anyone who has observed their parents' failing health or mental decline at age 75, or who is that age, will say differently. I wish it were different, but 75 is just not the new 55.)

It will surprise no one if New Hampshire goes for Bernie Sanders, given its proximity to Vermont and the large number of independent voters who are allowed to vote in either primary. But far more important will be Super Tuesday in early March and the large states, particularly those with a lot of minority voters. [More...]

Hillary has the overwhelming support of the party's super delegates. They can support whoever they want at the national convention.

I think the principal reason Bernie won't win the nomination is the numbers aren't there. Some say he will begin tumbling in South Carolina. There are a lot of southern, conservative and moderate Democrats who don't support Bernie's positions on issues.

I happen to support Bernie's positions on most issues. I just think that as President, Bernie would have little to no chance of getting his ambitious agenda through Congress. Shorter version: Reality bites.

Hillary and Bernie are pretty much indistinguishable on issues. That some of her positions seem recently acquired or strengthened is far less important to me than her superior track record of accomplishments and her greater ability to deal with a hostile Congress.

I also happen to admire revolutionaries. If any were around today, I'd likely vote for him or her. Bernie Sanders is not my idea of a revolutionary. First, he has not been particularly successful at implementing change at the national level.

Second, he's no throwback to Woodstock Nation or 60's radicals or the counterculture. He wasn't a hippie, let alone a Yippie. I may have missed it, but where was he in 1968 during the Chicago 7 trial? Where was his support in 1969 of Woodstock or counterculture figures? Did he call for a boycott in 1971 over Cesar Chavez and grapes?

Bernie is not a baby boomer (he was born before their time.) As others have pointed out, he's a throwback to the 1930's, not the 1960's.

Come to think of it, he does kind of remind me of Warren Beatty's character in the movie "Reds" (with Diane Keaton and Jack Nicholson, in which Beatty plays a 1920's disillusioned journalist who wants to bring the communist ideas from the Russian Revolution to the U.S. Bernie has not endorsed communism, but that's not the point.)

Almost by definition, a revolutionary rejects and wants to overthrow a system of government, not join and lead it. Bernie isn't calling for the destruction of the two party system or Congress. He wants to bring change from within. That's not revolution. Subcomandante Marcos and the Zapatistas never sought to lead one of Mexico's major parties.

Forty-one years later, in 2016, the Zapatistas now have indigenous and autonomous control over land and resources—land free from maquiladoras (sweat shops), slave labor, GMOs, corporate land take-overs, corrupt politicians, bankers and multi-national corporations. Instead, their revolution has produced thriving communities with their own schools, healthcare clinics, thriving crops, indigenous language preservation and even an academic and trade focused University—all free. Run by the people, for the people.

Whist reflecting on the Zapatistas revolution, in April of 2015, the Zapatistas clarified the distinction, in a world-wide communiqué, between revolutionary change and voting in mainstream elections: “Because it’s the same thing among all those who want a political position, regardless of whether they dress up red, or sometimes in blue, or sometimes they put on a new color. And then they say they are the people and that therefore, the people have to support them. But they aren’t of the people. They’re the same bad governments who one day are local representatives, and the next are union leaders, then they are party functionaries . . . bouncing from one position to another, and also from one color to another.”

I've written a lot about Subcomandante Marcos on TalkLeft -- I've bought and read his writings. This communique of the Zapatistas about Marcos is my favorite.

I also happen to agree with FARC on a lot of issues. My point is, Sanders is not a modern-day revolutionary. He's not revolutionary at all. He is an idealist with the right position on political issues, who is to be credited for forcing the media and politicians to take the left more seriously this primary season. But he will be no more successful in the long run than Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, Jesse Jackson or Ralph Nader because the majority of Americans still do not embrace such views.

What makes all the media comparisons to 60's counterculture figures so irksome to me is that I can't find any wealth of articles describing his support for the radical left back then. Did he even attend the Chicago 7 trial in 1968? Give speeches in support of the defendants? I don't see his praise for Woodstock in 1969, and it doesn't seem he went. (His current wife did and loved it, but she hadn't yet met him.)

None of Sanders' ideas are original, and while I don't doubt his sincerity and commitment to his beliefs, and i happen to share most of them, he has had little track record of success with them in the past.

I'll end here, pointing out that things are rarely what they appear to be. What you don't see at the beginning of the "Volunteers" video above, are the words Grace Slick used to preface the song:

Alright Friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see the morning maniac music. Good Morning People. Believe me, it's a new dawn.

Decades later, at age 70, Grace Slick was interviewed about the "revolutionary" message of "Volunteers." Turns out, it wasn't inspired by politics at all. Marty Balin, the Airplane's lead singer, had seen a Salvation Army type bus go by with the message "Volunteers of America."

“Volunteers Of America” actually doesn’t mean anything. It was something Marty Balin (lead singer of the Jefferson Airplane) and Paul Kantner put together. Now Paul is very political, Marty isn’t. Marty writes love songs.

“Volunteers Of Americas” was a print on the side of a truck that Marty saw. He was looking out the window, and a truck went by. It said “Volunteers Of America” on it. I believe it’s something like Salvation Army.... he liked that. He ran it around his head, “Volunteers Of America. That’s interesting.” So he had the repeated line, “Volunteers Of America,” and Paul put more political sh*t into the lyric. So it isn’t as deep as everybody thinks it is (laughs). It’s something Marty saw on a truck (laughs).

So people then projected that meaning into it.

Yeah. But Paul gave it semi-political lyrics that have to do with the Sixties, or at that time.

The media and Republicans are having a field day with their comparisons between Bernie and baby boomers, failed liberal presidential candidates from 30 years ago, hippies, 60's left-wing radicals and the Woodstock generation. But Bernie was none of these.

Bernie is too focused on campaign finance, the 1%, the working middle class and Wall St. Those just aren't the issues I care deeply about. Sure, he talks about social issues, but within three sentences, he's back to his economical gripes. Bernie may own the youth vote with his economic platform, but I don't think it will be enough. I see no reason to doubt that older voters and minority voters will continue to skew for Hillary -- as will the super delegates.

If Bernie was offering a revolution, I might feel differently. But he's really just trying to lead the system, not create a new one. And there's no revolution in that. He's really just rebranding the hope and change meme. From my point of view, 99% is hope, and 1% is change we can expect with him at the helm. I think Hillary can do better.

< Sunday Open Thread | Halftime Superbowl Show >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:26:26 PM EST
    promised to "transform" politics. He hit a brick wall in short order. The only way things get done is twisting arms.

    I agree with Ruffian in that Bernie has had 50 years to lead a political "revolution". It all seems frozen in amber to me and definitely represents the past not the future.

    I think most (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:34:24 PM EST
    Of what he has done so far has been good for the party.

    IMO we are rapidly approaching the point where what he is doing is not helping the party.

    Fortunately I think it will be mostly over fairly soon.   Clearly he's not going away but he won't be able to do any more harm.

    I think that point was passed (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Towanda on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:24:42 PM EST
    in the past week, as we watched the Republican field narrow -- while the Democrats fractured.

    It seems like 2000 again -- and with Rove involved, again.  

    The result then worries me now.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:59:43 PM EST
    I fear the fracturing is still to come.  When NH is behind us and we move south and Hillary starts winning and this revolution thing the media has been selling 24/7 hits the reality most people knew was coming.   I'm afraid it won't be pretty.   And I'm afraid that's when the real damage starts.

    I hope not.  But I become less optimistic by the day.

    Parent

    How is he harming the party? (none / 0) (#8)
    by shoephone on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:58:51 PM EST
    By wounding the (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:01:19 PM EST
    Inevitable nominee.  If you can't see that there is no point in arguing about it.

    Parent
    Not sure it fair to say Bernie is harming (none / 0) (#72)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:58:12 AM EST
    Some Bernie supporters on the other hand*

    I lean Hillary for many of the reasons articulated by JM in her post, but would vote for Bernie if he were the nominee. I think Hillary better able to fight back at the GOP, but absent a massive rejection of the GOP at the congressional level neither will get cooperation from congress

    Parent

    Maybe some of you need to (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Anne on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:40:33 PM EST
    do more than take what the media is saying, or what Clinton is saying, as gospel, and educate yourselves about what Sanders has done, what his record is, what his history is.

    Here's one place to start: Bernie Gets It Done.

    Here's another one: Bernie Sanders' Radical Past.

    Two more things: I don't think you understand the revolution he's advocating for, and with 6 years separating Sanders from Clinton, the ageism you keep pushing against Sanders is pretty ugly.

    thats kind of the point (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:12:20 PM EST
    I've been following politics pretty closely for a long time. If Sanders were a progressive leader I think I would have heard about it.

    Parent
    I find this comment stunning (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by shoephone on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:32:35 PM EST
    Sanders is not only a well-known progressive, he was the founder of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.

    The Congressional Progressive Caucus (CPC) was founded in 1991 by Bernie Sanders, a self-identified socialist who had recently been elected to the U.S. House of Representatives. Sanders' CPC co-founders included House members Ron Dellums, Lane Evans, Thomas Andrews, Peter DeFazio, and Maxine Waters. The Institute for Policy Studies (IPS) was also involved in CPC's founding and in Caucus activities thereafter; IPS continues to advise CPC on various matters to this day.

    And he has been on the Thom Hartmann show every Friday for 13 years, for a regular Friday segment called "Brunch With Bernie." He also has appeared on the Sam Seder's show, and many other shows on what has long been dubbed "Progressive Talk Radio"--an antidote to right wing talk radio.

    Parent

    Forgive me for my ignorance (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:40:17 PM EST
    Why was everyone trying to draft Warren when he was right there all along? Probably exactly what he was thinking.

    Parent
    Warren is fantastic (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by shoephone on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:46:51 PM EST
    But she doesn't want the job of president. And she's also the new shiny thing in the Senate, just like Obama was. She's popular. In fact, I think a lot of people were hoping she would run instead of Clinton. And, apparently, Sanders is a popular progressive, otherwise he wouldn't be where he is now.

    Parent
    Not sure how popular Sanders is (none / 0) (#146)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:23:35 PM EST
    when fellow US Senator from Vermont Patrick Leahy and Vermont's only US Representative Peter Welch have both received more votes in a Vermont election than Sanders ever has. Hell, Sanders has even lost 6 elections in Vermont in his lifetime.

    Parent
    Don't they both (none / 0) (#194)
    by sallywally on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 02:24:37 AM EST
    support Clinton?

    Parent
    Warren would have been a twofer (none / 0) (#65)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:14:06 AM EST
    The chance to elect the first woman president and someone who would pursue many of the same agenda items as Sanders.

    A contest between Clinton and Warren could have been a clear choice on the direction the party and the country without having a conflict of wanting a woman to break the glass ceiling.

    Parent

    Since Sen. Warren repeatedly said that ... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:45:34 PM EST
    ... she had no interest in running for president, yours is really a moot point, not unlike speculating what might have happened to the U.S. war effort in the Second World War, had the Japanese invaded and seized Hawaii immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

    Parent
    Warren (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:19:30 AM EST
    Has the same weakness Sanders has and that's called "foreign policy".

    While it has garnered little attention in the primaries, it is the first and foremost the job of the president, and Republicans would not be shy about talking about it.

    Parent

    Experience vs judgement (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:08:11 AM EST
    Hillary does have more experience in foreign policy but her track record indicates that she does not always execute good judgement.

    A few examples:

    HRC voted for the AUMF that allowed Bush to invade Iraq. The invasion was the beginning of the destabilization of the M.E.

    HRC advocated for U.S. military intervention in Lybia and Syria when other Obama advisors advocated against it. Both are currently failed states which provide fertile ground for various terrorists organizations including ISIS.

    HRC has stated that she received foreign policy advise from Henry Kissinger and brags that he approves of her handling of the position of SOS.

    HRC is currently advocating establishing a no fly zone in Syria.

    Many of the disasterous foreign policy decisions made in the last decade were made or promoted by people with extensive foreign policy experience.

    Republucans are not and will not be shy about talking about the decisions HRC has made on foreign policy, so I really don't think that is a major factor.

    Parent

    Yes, she would have things to talk about (2.00 / 2) (#76)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:33:08 AM EST
    But I'm gonna doubt Republicans will be hitting her with the Iraq War vote. And unlike other vandudates, she doesn't look like a deer in the headlights when the topic comes up.

    But hey, Bernie Sanders never met a war funding bill he didn't like! And he foes love homthe epitome of Pentagon waste - the F35 Striker.Too bad he doesn't actually have a real foreign policy team put together, but that's ok too! He once spoke to Larry Korb once about foreign policy and looks to J-Street and Jim Zogby for advice.
    And of course, his delay in investigating the VA when he was head of the committee in charge really speaks well to his judgment.

    And you still can't tell us what he WILL be able to do or why you're voting for someone who will not be able to much if anything to advance his ieas.

    Parent

    I have told you very clearly on numerous (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:44:30 AM EST
    occasions why I am supporting Bernie Sanders and what I think he will be able to do. You have just chosen to ignore or distort what I've written.

    Parent
    Typos (none / 0) (#77)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:34:16 AM EST
    Lord.

    Bernie does love the epitome of Pentagon waste...

    Parent

    Warren vs. Clinton (none / 0) (#132)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:40:00 PM EST
    There would have been no contest. Warren would have mopped the floor with her by now--on every issue, including foreign policy.

    Parent
    I mean... (5.00 / 4) (#158)
    by CST on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:41:23 PM EST
    Warren's my senator, and I think she's great, but she has never articulated much of a position on foreign policy, and frankly, I get the impression she's just not that interested in it.  Which I have a hunch is part of the reason she decided not to run.  And frankly, when she does have something to say about foreign policy, it's not particularly liberal.

    The idea that she'd mop the floor with Clinton on that issue is totally unfounded.

    Parent

    To your point, CST (none / 0) (#188)
    by NYShooter on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:18:10 PM EST
    Just my opinion, but, I think those two parts (foreign affairs & domestic affairs) are each so huge that no one could do justice to both simultaneously.

    Parent
    You mean (2.00 / 2) (#63)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 06:59:51 AM EST
    The same Congressional Progressive Caucus where the vast majority of its members are supporting Hillary Clinton?  That one?

    Parent
    The point wasn't about support, it was (none / 0) (#74)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:17:45 AM EST
    about the original poster not being aware of Sanders' progressive background; being a founding member of the CPC spoke to that issue.

    And while 45 out of 70 is, indeed, a majority, I don't know that I would call it "vast."

    Parent

    Might want to update your data (none / 0) (#85)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:58:22 AM EST
    Again.

    There are 69 members of the CPC, according to their website.

    57 of the have endorsed HRC, so yeah, I'm gonna stick with "vast majority:.

    Parent

    And once again (1.00 / 1) (#131)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:37:56 PM EST
    you are deliberately ignoring the point of my comment to ruffian. It's also been pointed out to you by Anne, and still you persist.

    Parent
    I knew he had background (none / 0) (#138)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:42:30 PM EST
    It was leadership I was questioning...being a founder of the CPC shows leadership, so I give him props for that.

    It is a legitimate question why so many of the CPC is backing Hillary. I suspect they committed to her before he announced - giving him the benefit of the doubt on that.

    But giving her credit for superior organizational skills in lining them up early.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:57:42 PM EST
    I bet some of it comes down to the fact as to how well they think Bernie would do in their state like John Lewis.

    Parent
    Many of those endorsements (none / 0) (#143)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:09:03 PM EST
    were given nearly a year ago (last April), before the campaign really began. It's certainly possible that many of the reps were thinking (as the "conventional wisdom" would have it) that Clinton would be the inevitable nominee. Maybe some were thinking that an early endorsement of the "eventual" nominee would be a politically savvy move to make, and that if Sanders ended up the nominee, they could still jump on that bandwagon without a problem. Keep in mind, they're all up for re-election in 2016 as well...They're politicians, and they are likely to act in their own political interest, regardless of their labels.

    It doesn't matter much to me, because I'm not someone who has ever been swayed by political endorsements.

    Parent

    Madame Sec (none / 0) (#196)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 07:04:22 AM EST
    Chilled out anyone else announcing their candidacy in the Dem party by postponing her announcement. No other Dem politician wanted to oppose her and were waiting for her announcement. Bernie and I gather every other Dem politician  failed to see the pulse of the party. No one anticipated the Bern phenomena, including him.
    That he has gotten so much up and running now is quite an accomplishment.
    I do not credit superior organizational skills, it was more the "coronation" that was supposed to happen. The Bern just rudely interrupted it.

    Parent
    Ralph Nader in 2000.. (none / 0) (#197)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 09:37:30 AM EST
    Jerry Brown in 1990..

    It's not like the Bern phenomenon, coming on the heels of the crash of 07, OWS, BLM, two wars and climate change was uttererly and completely unforseeable and unfathomable.

    Parent

    Maybe what is stunning is that (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:53:49 PM EST
    the progressive message out of congress isn't even reaching people like me, much less the general public.

    Parent
    And maybe this is part of what (none / 0) (#35)
    by Anne on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:02:21 PM EST
    brought Sanders to where he is now, because for the most part, the ones who always seem to be hogging the camera, the ones who seem to always get the invites to the Sunday shows, are solid establishment-types.

    Parent
    Please ask yourself (none / 0) (#55)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:48:38 AM EST
    Who has been on more news shows Clinton or Sanders but no that just means she's in a bubble I know the double standards.

    Parent
    Maybe it depends on where you live, (none / 0) (#36)
    by shoephone on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:07:06 PM EST
    what your local media  broadcasts, or who your congressional representative is. I've known about and have paid attention to Sanders for many, many years. The Thom Hartmann show--which has been a great PR vehicle for showcasing Sanders' views and actions in D.C.--has been on Seattle radio for ten years. And Jim McDermott, who is also a CPC member, has been my congressional rep since 1989.

    Parent
    I definitely am in conservative radio land (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:14:27 PM EST
    Cant even call NPR liberal anymore, IMO. I do hear replays of Tom Hartmann sometimes at night on Sirius in my car, just haven't happened to catch Bernie there.

    I can see why running for president is the best platform for getting out a message.

    Parent

    I have to add that I think it's a real problem (none / 0) (#46)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:56:14 PM EST
    that running for POTUS is the best platform to build a movement or get out a message. Because it doesn't last -even if the candidate wins he then has to to go on and perform in a very difficult job, not spend his time and taxpayer money maintaining a political,organization.

    I wish I had an answer.

    Parent

    Not only is NPR not liberal, (none / 0) (#52)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:18:18 AM EST
    the reporting staff doesn't strike me as very professional. On the off chance that I tune in, I usually find myself cringing at what awful voices they have, and the general lack of their interviewing skills.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#27)
    by lentinel on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:27:04 PM EST
    we're hearing about it now.

    He decided to take on the presumptive nominee and insists on championing a progressive agenda.

    I'm impressed.

    Parent

    Just because someone isn't (none / 0) (#33)
    by Anne on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:55:27 PM EST
    jockeying for camera time doesn't mean he or she isn't a leader.

    Parent
    Progressive leader... (none / 0) (#193)
    by sallywally on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 02:21:49 AM EST
    Not exactly Paul Wellstone  (of whom we heard...)

    Parent
    not ageism (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:42:29 PM EST
    it's reality -- 74 and 68 are worlds apart. Bernie would be 76 when he was sworn in and 80 when his term ended (no chance in h*ll he'd get a second term at 80)

    No one said he was in ill health. He's just too old to have the physical stamina for the job --even for the travel it requires. And he's at greater risk of dementia.

    Senility and Dementia are a big problem for judges. Lots of states have forced retirement for judges at certain ages.

    I also don't care to have my country represented by someone I perceive as an "Alter Kaker". Hillary and Donald seem much more "with it" to me. He seems mired in his past, like a broken record.

    Parent

    That's true, Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:23:57 AM EST
    Jeralyn: "Senility and Dementia are a big problem for judges. Lots of states have forced retirement for judges at certain ages."

    Hawaii's mandatory retirement age of 70 for members of the judiciary is written into our state constitution. The state legislature placed a measure on the ballot last November that would have amended that provision to raise the retirement age to 80. But despite enjoying the robust support of most elected officials, AARP and many community groups, Amendment 3 was overwhelmingly rejected by Hawaii voters, 73-27%. I voted "No" for the very reasons you elucidated.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Ageism? Really? (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:54:56 PM EST
    Reagan was 69 when he took office and 77 when he left office.  When they had to make sure he put his socks on before his shoes.

    It's honestly pretty absurd to call concern about electing a 75 year old as president ageism.

    And also I actually getting pretty tired of having my ability to assimilate information questioned because I do not support Bernie.

    Parent

    Clinton is 68, so why aren't you, (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Anne on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:19:23 PM EST
    and why isn't Jeralyn, making the argument that she's too old to run?  Clinton's the one who's had health problems, you know, problems with blood clots, a significant concussion that had her out of commission for some time right before she stepped down as Secretary - when she was three years younger than she is now.

    I'm not questioning your ability to assimilate information, I'm questioning whether the information people are assimilating is really information, because it seems like what it is is campaign rhetoric being pushed by the Clinton campaign: "I'm a progressive who likes to get things done" isn't information.

    Parent

    I am (2.67 / 3) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:23:00 PM EST

    Being physically (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:00:17 PM EST
    And mentally vigorous does not mean you are up to what is literally the toughest and most stressful job on the earth.
    It's a 24/7/365 job.  IMO Hillary is pushing the upper limits.  

    And I don't need you to tell me what is and is not information.

    Parent

    Neither is (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:04:48 AM EST
    "Break up the banks".

    Parent
    Bernie and Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by womanwarrior on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:46:07 PM EST
    Well, I wouldn't recommend going all ageist since my dad was physically and mentally vigorous into his 90's. And don't do anything to send people into the arms of the young fascist R's, since Hillary is not that much younger than Bernie.  

    As for getting things through Congress, well that isn't happening until we get more D's elected there.  Don't forget the R's hate Hillary even more than they hate Obama. Yeah, we gotta dream to get that vote out, but what we got is the veto power and an inclination not to invade the world until we change the majority in Congress.

    Yeah, I would like a woman president and I know Hillary is strong and smart and experienced.    

    So, I am still on the fence on this one and willing to see what happens in the primaries and then work like a dog to gotv in the final election.  I just don't think any D partisans should trash the other, because the last thing we want is to give anyone an excuse or the motivation not to get out there and vote.  Because, if we have an R president as well as an R Congress and then rightwing Supremes, we are going to be living in a Margaret Atwood novel. And I surely don't want that.  

    No (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:50:42 PM EST
    they don't hate Hillary any more than they hate Obama. Probably about the same. However the R's have nothing to lose with insulting Obama because they could care less about African American voters. They do however worry about offending white women.

    The advantage Hillary has is that she is working to change congress with actually raising money for down ticket races and the state parties who virtually have no money these days.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#16)
    by womanwarrior on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:48:12 PM EST
    I think the R's hate women, without exception, except maybe for the religious ones they believe they can control.  
    But I appreciate HRC is trying to help on down ticket races.  The party in our state has a huge chance to knock off an R senator, but they are so wasting money and effort on a 3 candidate primary.

    Parent
    There (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:17:17 AM EST
    are women that vote for the GOP versus literally no African Americans is where I'm coming from. Yes, the GOP has this control thing going on with women but also remember too that there were only 1 or 2 senators that voted against her being SOS.

    Parent
    Hey, WW (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Peter G on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:11:49 PM EST
    So good to see you back after a break of more than a year!

    Parent
    Being physically (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:00:17 PM EST
    And mentally vigorous does not mean you are up to what is literally the toughest and most stressful job on the earth.

    It's a 24/7/365 job.  IMO Hillary is pushing the upper limits.  

    Parent

    This (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:20:18 PM EST

     He's really just rebranding the hope and change meme.

    OBAMA

    BERNIE

    Yeah but here's the difference (1.50 / 2) (#56)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:56:13 AM EST
    And the reason why Obama became a great president ..  Obama ran that message as a Democrat.

    Bernie runs that same message cause he believes Dems, all of them, are all corrupt. He looks down his nose on the entire party.

    Why couldn't Bernie put a D next to his name for all his career?  Jeralyn just called me out for being a blog clog ok I will abide but I'm still going to ask that question.

    Parent

    I think we knew that (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 08:59:55 PM EST
    I am agreeing with the post.  And my opinion as to why Bernie is no longer helping is, I think, very clear.

    As for the "exchange of ideas".  It's getting harder to do that when every other post questions you critical thinking or your ability to tell information from spin or some other equally condescending krap.

    I'm sick of it.  I expressed my opinion.  Express yours if you like.   Free country.

    That's what I'm saying. (none / 0) (#23)
    by lentinel on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:17:36 PM EST
    Express your opinion.

    Let someone else express a contrasting opinion without your demeaning their intelligence if they don't agree with your point of view.

    Parent

    I think we agree! (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:18:54 PM EST
    those comments are deleted (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:31:32 PM EST
    Do not mock other commenters for their position. It discourages others from commenting at all. No one wants to feel like their position is worthless. Commenters who continue to do it will be banned. I don't care how long you have been reading this site. You either follow the rules or you are out of here. No one should hesitate to express their opinions here. If I don't see a mocking comment, email it to me. If I agree, it will be deleted and repeat offenders will be banned.

    Parent
    When (none / 0) (#58)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:09:28 AM EST
    Intelligent people pooh-pooh and dismiss people like Dr. Paul Krugman out of hand, then you know the shark has been jumped.

    Parent
    Bernie and his cohorts (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by MKS on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 09:18:24 PM EST
    are attacking Hillary as dishonest, working hand in glove with the GOP on that score.

    Attacking Hillary personally is not a campaign of ideas.

    You want "attack?" (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by NYShooter on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:25:56 PM EST
    Bill Clinton just unloaded on Bernie with double barrel flame throwers.

    Wow, wow, wee!

    Bill Clinton, After Months of Restraint, Unleashes Stinging Attack on Bernie Sanders
    NY Times
    LINK



    Parent

    Seem a little over excited (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:34:07 PM EST
    In response to a guy defending his wife from pretty damn vicious attacks.

    Let me ask you a question.  Do you think this-

    But Mr. Clinton's most pointed remarks may have been when he took aim at Sanders supporters who, he said, use misogynistic language in attacking Mrs. Clinton. He told the story of a female "progressive" blogger who defended Mrs. Clinton online through a pseudonym because, he said, the vitriol from Mr. Sanders's backers was so unrelenting.

    Is not true?

    Because let me inform you, it is.  It's ugly out there.  I don't how many other blog you visit but this one is an oasis of civility compared to the reception Hillary supporters get on most "liberal" blogs.

    Maybe Bill, like me, is just sick of it.

    Good for Bubba.  About time.  More of this please.

    Parent

    Bernie Brothers (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:45:03 PM EST

    "Bernie Bros" is the shorthand for Sanders supporters who swarm Democrats who support Hillary Clinton, particularly women, online. Clinton supporters have complained about them for months, and a top Sanders campaign official recently apologized to his counterpart on the Clinton campaign for the behavior of some Sanders backers online. The Sanders campaign has admonished its legion of online supporters to police itself.

    Meanwhile, some prominent Sanders-supporting pundits claim the Bernie Bro is a myth, ginned up by Clinton supporters to cast her campaign as the victim of sexist attacks.



    Parent
    Bernie has repudiated them (none / 0) (#48)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 11:01:09 PM EST
    loud and clear, so lets not demean him with that brush.

    Parent
    It says they did (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 11:06:25 PM EST
    In that paragraph.  But as the Times says, his most strident remarks were for those people.  

    Whose existence, the Tines also says, is being denied by prominent Bernie supporters.  And some not so prominent one right here in these threads.


    Parent

    Not just the misogyny of the DudeBros (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 06:27:31 AM EST
    It's the data stealing, the mis representation of newspaper endorsements (pretending they were for Bernie), the use of unauth'd pictures to fool people re support, the posing as union members to misrepresent Union interest.

    And on and on, and Sanders is skating on much of this.

    Can you imagine the media outcry if a Clinton staffer had stolen Sanders' voting data?

    My fear is we're headed for the worst of 2008, full Bros v Hos warfare, and on top of that risk repeating 2000, by allowing a nightmare to get in from the GOP, pick a name.

    I cannot imagine Sanders can win the general with a base of young white people, and if this keeps up, Clinton will be seriously wounded should she get the nom.

    Classic Dem Firing Squad.

    Parent

    I can't imagine HRC winning (none / 0) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 06:55:00 AM EST
    without young white people.  IIRC they were a part of the Obama coalition. Clinton's wounds with that demographic have recently been inflicted by her surrogates.

    Parent
    I can't imagine (none / 0) (#68)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:21:15 AM EST
    Bernie winning without moderate and conservative Democrats (i.e. a majority of the party) over 45.

    Parent
    That is all well and good (none / 0) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:39:54 AM EST
    but that doesn't negate the fact that Hillary will need young voters to win the General and it is stupid for her surrogates and supporters to continue to insult them.

    If claims are true that young people need motivation for them to show up and vote, I really don't think insulting them is the way to go.

    Parent

    Lest we think the sexism is limited to BBros (none / 0) (#88)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:11:09 AM EST
    There's always this

    Woman who accused Bill Clinton of assault to campaign against Hillary presidential run

    On Reuters trying to get link....

    Parent

    Shooter (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:32:27 AM EST
    with all due respect the rest of the world does not behave anything like TL. I myself have had run ins with people on twitter. Joan Walsh wrote about how her daughter was harassed. There are more stories like that.

    For some reason it seems Hillary is supposed to let all this happen and never respond. Why is that?

    Parent

    I feel pretty silly having to say this. (none / 0) (#191)
    by NYShooter on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:37:14 PM EST
    I've been on this site for, oh, over five years, or so, and, in that time I've written that Bill Clinton was my favorite President (next to John Kennedy) about 100 times, or so it seems. And, I've defended him more than that many times when he's been attacked here over some of the decisions he made while President.

    In that regard I said that you have to remember he followed Reagan & G.H.Bush. His decisions have to be considered in the time they occurred. He very well might have lost his re-election bid had it not been for Ross Perot. I applauded his political, and necessary, tack to the center at that time.

    As to some of his decisions that turned out badly, I believe he deserves some credit for admitting as much many, many times in the years that followed. One of the problems with term limits is that, having made a decision that, later, proved to be a poor one, you don't get the opportunity to reverse, or change it.

    So, maybe (before responding to a poster's comment) Talk Left had a function something like Google, where you could type in, "what has Shooter's position been on (any topic) I wouldn't be wasting everyone's time stating it again tonight. Unlike you, and Howdy above, I write relatively few comments here weekly, sometimes many days between writings. But, I have written about my support and fondness for both Bill & Hillary Clinton so many times that having to defend it now seems, well, never mind.

    Finally, I believe I've written more here about the need for civility (in general) and, respect for other's opinions, especially when they differ from one's own, then anyone here. When I read that NY Times piece last night I yelled, "You go, Bill! That's my Boy!" Then I rushed to post it here. So, I hope you can understand that when I read the first reply to that, I said to myself, "I think I better sign off here, Jeralyn wouldn't appreciate reading what I feel like writing."  

    Parent

    I'm still a little annoyed with Bill for (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:18:03 AM EST
    just sitting there like a brow-beaten
    little boy on the All Spin Zone while Father Coughlin pointed his finger and railed on about the Democrats "waging class warfare"..

    It's no wonder Bubba is getting a little defensive, after that nineties travesty when he let that Wall Street cosa nostra of Greenspan, Summers, and Rubin have their avaricious way with our economic policy..

    Parent

    For me, (2.00 / 1) (#81)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:45:00 AM EST
    Bill Clinton has zero credibility on any score.

    What he did, imo, was to figuratively, but just about literally, expose himself in front of us all.

    He mooned us.

    If he had resigned, instead of exposing us to his genetic material, Gore would have been president.
    That might have well changed things in 2000.
    Gore certainly would not have been impelled to name Holy Warrior Joe as his running mate.

    Some may consider his dalliance a minor transgression in an otherwise sterling presidency, but I don't.

    He should don his sackcloth and ashes and go somewhere out of public view.

    Parent

    that Gore felt comnplled to do that (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:21:57 AM EST
    is on him. The country was ready to move on after the impeachment debacle. He could have picked anyone else as VP and said 'here is the plan forward, we are moving on'.

    Thanks for letting us know where you are coming from.

    Parent

    It wouldn't (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:26:29 AM EST
    have changed anything. It would still have been the same story.

    And the person that advised Holy Joe was a good VP? Tad Devine the same one that is promoting Holy Bern. Sanctimonious smarm is not appealing to the general public and if it is so good then Gore did exactly what you are promoting. He ran from Clinton and put Holy Joe as his VP.

    Parent

    Here is what is amazing to me (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:28:19 AM EST
    That so many liberals are so prudish about 'dalliances.' That is exactly the attitude that influenced Gore to pick 'Holy Joe'.

    Parent
    Selectively prudish (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:31:32 AM EST
    It's not (1.00 / 1) (#115)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:52:12 AM EST
    about being prudish.

    It's about a public figure exposing his genitalia in front of the whole world.

    It's about him doing what he did to an intern in the White House - knowing, in his words, that she would have to tell someone - to talk about it.

    It's about his bombing a Muslim country to distract from the hearings on his repulsive behavior.

    He had, in my opinion, no sense of responsibility to the people of this country who depended upon him.

    The disgust, well deserved, led in my opinion to the election of Bush. And the rest is total disaster.

    "Prudish" is hardly the word for those revolted by this man who we elected to be the president of the United States.

    I

    Parent

    OK, probably not for the last time (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:05:46 AM EST
    since the myth persists: Lewinsky was not an intern at the time of the affair. She was a 22 yr old regular WH employee, a willing participant, and in fact the initiator.

    There were of course a million reasons why he should have said no, but people that call her an intern are usually trying to make the whole thing even worse than it was.

    Parent

    OK. (none / 0) (#134)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:12:40 PM EST
    She was not an intern.

    She was a 22 yr old regular WH employee, a willing participant, and in fact the initiator.

    And he, lest we forget, was the president of the United States, with a constituency dependent upon him. And a rabid republican opposition ready to pounce upon anything - real or imagined - that could bring him down.

    So he did what he did.
    Knowing that it would become public.

    And then he stayed in office while the whirlwind ensued. And made public all the disgusting information about his private parts.

    And bombed a Muslim country to distract from the hearings. Killing many people.

    I'm sorry - but intern or floozy or nurse or acquaintance - what he did stinks to high heaven.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:31:30 AM EST
    that's my point too. The same attitude about sanctimony is the one that got Lieberman as VP yet the attitude is Lieberman was a bad pick for VP. Talk about circular logic.

    Parent
    And what (none / 0) (#116)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:54:43 AM EST
    an idiotic choice it was.
    It was a constant reminder of what Gore presumably wanted us to forget - that Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants and used an intern in the White House - OUR HOUSE - to satisfy himself.

    And the rest is history.

    Gore didn't even carry his home state.

    Parent

    ... she was deathly afraid of Ted Cruz, Donald Trump, et al., you always seem to be doing your very best to divide your own side in the face of a looming GOP menace.

    Okay, so Bill Clinton had an extramarital dalliance 20 years ago, and you were offended by what he did. Al Gore lost his home state in the 2000 election, and that pi$$ed you off. But that was then, and this is now. You're not going to change the past through retroactive amendment, so please move on and stop holding onto old grudges.

    If you support Bernie Sanders, that's great. But surely you can speak to his virtues, without also feeling compelled to constantly malign, belittle and bemoan every single other Democratic officeholder and candidate whose name so happens to pop into your head during these discussions.

    It does get very tiresome for many of us to hear you relentlessly belabor over and again how awful and immoral they all are, certainly as much as it must be frustrating for you to repeatedly find yourself self-marginalized politically as a result.

    And that's because when you constantly trash Democrats in that manner you do, you also insinuate that those of us who might otherwise like and / or support these elected officials and candidates are ourselves somehow morally obtuse and / or ethically flawed for doing so.

    Regardless of whoever our party's nominee may ultimately be, Democrats will need to unite behind him or her at our national convention, if we are to have any chance at winning come November. You and others on the far left make it all that much harder to do so, whenever you allow your idealism to devolve into what New York Times columnist Paul Krugman calls a "destructive self-indulgence."

    Sen. Sanders is a good and decent man, but he's no more perfect than are Bill and Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, etc. Perfect is the enemy of the good, lentinel, and suffice to say that as imperfect as our country may be, its politicians will neither comport themselves to your worldview nor accommodate your wishes and desires, simply for fear of your moral scoldings and tongue-lashings.

    Nobody is perfect, and more to the point, our nation's politics can't always be about you. And in that regard, you're only going to make yourself more isolated, frustrated and depressed, if you continue to insist that others must first somehow meet your dauntingly high bar of personal standards, before you'll even consider supporting them.

    So, please do try to be more positive in your outlook, by not focusing nearly so much on everyone else's negatives, and learn to disagree with politicians without being nearly so disagreeable about them personally.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Please point us to the comment (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:43:27 PM EST
    where lentinel claimed Sanders is perfect. I don't really ever seeing such a comment.

    Parent
    I simply (none / 0) (#179)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:34:01 PM EST
    said that Cruz scared the bejesus out of me.

    I was using the word you used to describe peoples feelings about Goldwater in 1964.

    I am puzzled why the one getting bashed and demeaned is Trump, rather than Cruz - who I consider to be much more dangerous. Even psychotic.

    But the thrust of my post was that if we, the democratic party, offered someone who was a polar opposite to Cruz - or Trump or any of the rest of that group - we might have a chance of a similar landslide that was enjoyed by Lyndon.

    At the moment, however, with Hillary as the possible choice, in my opinion we would have two militarists opposing each other.

    And then there is the Wall Street stuff.
    Bill and Hillary have made over 139 million bucks since the '90s.
    From Dowd:
    When Anderson Cooper asked why Hillary had taken the obscene Goldman Sachs windfall, she gave a stupefyingly bad answer to a predictable question. "Well, I don't know," she said, throwing up her hands and shrugging. "That's what they offered."

    That answer, if accurately quoted, is right out of the Willie Sutton lexicon.

    Oh my.

    If you want a positive outlook, I think you'll have to promote a candidate that is less militaristic and less tied to unsavory entities like Goldman.

    And by the way, who in the world is saying that Sanders is perfect?

    All that I have been saying is that I am quite afraid that Clinton would be a most ineffective candidate against the republican opposition.
    That goes against the "he can't win" mantra being leveled at Sanders - but that is what I feel.

    I will add, responding to your comment, that I do in fact think that Sanders is a better person than Bill. What Bill did was despicable. He threw us all under the bus... not to mention the needless bombing he initiated to distract from the circling buzzards investigating his "indiscretion". Killing people. Not good.

    Parent

    And I can only imagine what they'd (3.00 / 2) (#92)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:17:35 AM EST
    be saying about Sander's "misogyny" and his wife's "character and judgement" etc if Bernie's fly kept getting stuck open the way Bill's habitually did..

    Yes, yes, I know Captain, sometimes the jokes just write themselves..

    Parent

    Bernie (3.50 / 2) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:20:54 AM EST
    has a problem in this area that largely has been ignored by his supporters. His wife has baggage too. It's just tiresome that he's so pure and holy when he's not. He's a politician with baggage just like any other politician.

    Parent
    And? (none / 0) (#117)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:57:43 AM EST
    So what?

    Either you think that Sanders will do something to address the incremental increase in income inequality or you think Clinton will.

    The baggage you refer to are the subjects that pundits use to distract us from the harsh day to day realities we face.

    Parent

    That's (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:07:28 AM EST
    my problem. I don't think he'll do anything. I think he'll talk a lot about it but accomplish nothing. He's had years to show leadership. Elizabeth Warren has accomplished more in a couple of years in the senate than he has. The difference is IMO she understands alliances and that they need to be made to advance things as imperfect and unpure as those alliances may be.

    Parent
    I see that you still haven't (none / 0) (#123)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:34:38 AM EST
    bothered to learn much about Sanders, but I can't say I'm surprised.

    Parent
    That certainly would have pleased (none / 0) (#129)
    by mm on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:07:36 PM EST
    Richard Mellon Scaife

    Parent
    I know it's easy for me to say (none / 0) (#147)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:24:54 PM EST
    but "little bill" was dumb dumb dumb not to be accutely aware of the rethugs long dirty trickster history of crawling through the gutter with a magnifying glass, luminol, and a pair of tweezers looking for something-anything to use in order to sabotage the Democrats.

    Parent
    I just (none / 0) (#177)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:16:34 PM EST
    think he didn't care.

    Drunk with power perhaps.

    Parent

    I wonder if anyone here is going (none / 0) (#187)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 06:56:22 PM EST
    to call Bill on his most recent bit of shameless bs in making Sanders personally reponsible for every moronic thing anonymous bloggers and self-important celebrities say..

    Of course not. Doing that would just be another expression of "CDS".

    I guess God had CDS when he made Bill horny..and fallible..and mortal.


    Parent

    The boss is responsible (2.00 / 1) (#189)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:35:23 PM EST
    Plausible deniability or not.  As Bill Clinton has pointed out--whether Sanders' supporters feel it is harsh or not-- this double-standard hits home to a number of HRC supporters; and, thus, his calling it out publicly reinforces support where needed in terms of energy.  It is a put-the-word-out-there strategy ... beyond NH.  It is quite methodical, on both sides.  Politics ain't beanbag (as we keep saying.)  It will get harsher as it goes along ... because there are no purity angels here ... it is the reality of the political process.

    Parent
    Thats absurd, Christine (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:21:20 PM EST
    anyone can say anything on the internet, and no one can control what anyone else says at all times or know who's really saying it.

    You know this.

    Bill wasn't being harsh, Bill was being patently fos.

    My advice is don't follow his lead.

     

    Parent

    Bill Clinton is right on. (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:43:40 PM EST
    IMO, there is a pattern of misinformation/edge of ethics practice in endorsements, admitted misuse of apparently proprietary computer data, posing as union members in Nevada etc.  

    The matter is becoming a problem emanating from Sanders' staff.  Shades of Tuck the Trickster; Shades of stale fish.  Make of it what you will; but, eventually, the boss (candidate) should assume responsibility for these publicized misdeeds.  Responsibility, accountability, and all that.

    Nope...not absurd.  Preachers should always be held to a high standard. :)

    Parent

    Reposting a previous comment (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by sj on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 11:26:11 AM EST
    No excuses? (none / 0) (#182)
    by sj on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:44:22 PM MDT

    That's pretty definitive. So by your standards HRC should be publicly apologizing for push polling in Nevada then. It "is a pattern that has been apparently going awhile".

    Do you still think the candidates are responsible for everything their campaigns do?

     FTR, I am not one who thinks that. I wasn't even successful at being responsible for the actions of only one offspring. My mind boggles at being responsible for all the actions of millions of voters.

    Parent | Reply to This

    So when is HRC going to denounce this?

    Parent
    I don't like "push polling" (none / 0) (#200)
    by christinep on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 03:10:24 PM EST
    But, it is a common practice across campaigns.  Insofar as I know, not unethical ... just a nasty little practice.  Nice try, sj.

    The boss, the candidate sets the tone of a campaign ... the boss, the candidate either manages or does not.

    Parent

    Push polls are extremely unethical (none / 0) (#202)
    by sj on Wed Feb 10, 2016 at 03:10:10 AM EST
    That's one reason they try so very hard to hide their sponsors. And if you say the boss, the candidate sets the tone then by your views she should denounce this.

    I don't happen to agree with you that candidates should follow their supporters around apologizing and denouncing. That could become a full time job. But if you have such firm beliefs about standards of behavior then you should apply them consistently.

    Nice try, christine.

    Parent

    The NYT was salivating waiting for that (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:45:43 PM EST
    Not particularly stinging IMO, and all true. He's not over the data stealing thing, that's for sure.

    Parent
    If course they were (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:51:45 PM EST
    It will lead every show on MSNBC tomorrow as well.  

    And they will put it in the worst frame they can manage.

    Fine.  Let them.   Again, go Bubba.

    Parent

    No, it won't lead tomorrow. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:37:16 AM EST
    That will be "Domo arigato, Marco Roboto." Rubio is wounded and if it bleeds, it leads.

    Parent
    I was right Donald (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:07:24 AM EST
    Morning Joe (none / 0) (#93)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:18:19 AM EST
    Predictably opens with Marco.  Actually with the exploding robot from the Michael Meyers spy movie, but everywhere else it's Bill Bill Bill

    Parent
    Very sad to read. (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:53:56 PM EST
    And the Dems fracture further (none / 0) (#51)
    by Towanda on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:19:11 AM EST
    because of the disgusting behavior of the boyz using Bernie Sanders.  

    Their comments on the Internet may read like little boys in their parents' basements -- but some of them well may be in the old boyz club.  This scenario is playing out too perfectly to split Dems.

    Parent

    Hillary and her cohorts (none / 0) (#82)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:47:15 AM EST
    are attacking Sanders as an unrealistic idealist, working hand in glove with the GOP on that score.

    A campaign of ideas?

    Sounds good.

    Where is it?

    Parent

    You don't really seem to have a consistent point (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by parse on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:19:44 PM EST
    I also happen to admire revolutionaries. If any were around today, I'd likely vote for him or her. . .Almost by definition, a revolutionary rejects and wants to overthrow a system of government, not join and lead it.

    So if there were a revolutionary around today you'd probably vote for them, although by definition they wouldn't be a revolutionary if you were able to vote for them.

    Are you just throwing stuff against that wall to see what sticks?

    I was trying to emphasize (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 10:59:25 PM EST
    I like to think I would probably support a real revolutionary -- but there are none.  Yes, you are correct, I wouldn't be able to show my support by voting for a real revolutionary because a real revolutionary wouldn't run for office -- especially as as a Democrat or Republican.

    But my point stands that Bernie doesn't fit the bill of being a revolutionary. Even he doesn't think he's revolutionary. He continually refers to himself as a "democratic socialist."

    Maybe he should be running as a third party candidate like Nader did, rather than as a Democrat. (Also, maybe a U.S. revolutionary would run as a third party candidate or independent, which would let me vote for him or her.)

    In any event, that's my opinion. I have a high regard for many revolutionaries (most of whom are foreign), I don't consider Bernie in the same group.

    Parent

    Bernie running as a third party (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:02:37 AM EST
    candidate would probably result in the next president being a Republican.

    Parent
    Imo, (none / 0) (#60)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:32:11 AM EST
    Clinton running as the Democratic party nominee would have the same result.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:36:48 AM EST
    if Bernie is the nominee Hillary could run as a third party candidate.

    Parent
    Great (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:37:23 AM EST
    idea!

    She could run as the progressive-moderate candidate who reaches across the aisle and gets things done for Goldman.

    Parent

    Hillary won NH in 2008 (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by itscookin on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 07:30:36 AM EST
    While there may be a little New England pride that will get Bernie some votes there, NH and VT are separated by more than the Connecticut River. While VT has been progressive in its politics for awhile, NH still stamps "Live free or die" on all its license plates. Southern NH, the Nashua area, has become extended suburban Boston, but as you go north, the state becomes more conservative. If Bernie walks away with the NH primary, I don't think we can write it off entirely to favorite son status. But I don't think it's going to be the blowout for him people think it's going to be. The NH voting age population is around 40/60, under 45/over 45. That age split favors Hillary. Colleges in NH aren't notoriously liberal, the most liberal probably being Dartmouth, which is Bill Clinton liberal, not start a revolution liberal. I expect Hillary to beat expectations in NH.

    They're setting the bar (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:50:01 AM EST
    for Sanders really high - declaring his advantage to be +20 points or so.

    This sets the stage for declaring him a loser if he wins by 10.

    What crocks these spinners be.

    Parent

    No different (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 08:55:49 AM EST
    than Sanders losing Iowa being spun as a "win" for Sanders.

    Parent
    I don't (none / 0) (#96)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:21:04 AM EST
    disagree.

    These spinners are idiots.

    Across the board.

    Shills.

    The pits.

    Parent

    There is winning the vote count (none / 0) (#89)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:13:17 AM EST
    and also going home happy about your performance. They aren't necessarily the same thing. I don't think it is so hard to understand that.

    Rubio was definitely the happiest guy last Monday night.

    Parent

    Rubio (none / 0) (#100)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:24:55 AM EST
    was "happy"?

    Where did you see that?

    I thought he just looked kind of flustered and dumb - except when he was repeating his little speech.

    Good God.

    Did he really emerge from that cr@p-fest looking happy?

    Parent

    Maybe yu should watch (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:26:33 AM EST
    His victory speech

    Parent
    I saw the (none / 0) (#108)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:33:26 AM EST
    one where he came in third.

    But there has been another since then.

    Did he declare victory again?

    He does seem to be the topic of conversation.
    What there is to talk about with respect to him escapes me.

    Parent

    OH yeah (none / 0) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:41:36 AM EST
    Since the debate he is pretty much the only topic-

    WSJ

    Marco Gets Polo-ed
    Rubio stumbles in debate and the GOP Governors do well.
    Feb. 7, 2016 5:45 p.m. ET
    A single debate rarely turns a presidential campaign, and for that Marco Rubio is fortunate because his gutting by New Jersey Governor Chris Christie on Saturday was as complete as any we've seen



    Parent
    Did you see his victory speech? (none / 0) (#111)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:36:58 AM EST
    He was beaming. Quite adorable, actually. Until he started talking.

    Parent
    Sorry, not 'victory' speech (none / 0) (#112)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:37:29 AM EST
    but it felt like one.

    Parent
    So do I (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:00:39 AM EST
    Predictions? (none / 0) (#90)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:14:01 AM EST
    I say Sanders by 12.

    Parent
    Ok FINE (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:20:29 AM EST
    Single digits.  At last (he adds cringing)

    Parent
    I would have agreed before the weekend (none / 0) (#99)
    by ruffian on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:24:21 AM EST
    But I do think the Albright-Steinem stuff did some damage.

    I'm going with 15.

    Parent

    Whatever the outcome (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:28:19 AM EST
    I honestly don't think that stuff is going to move many votes.  I think it irked the partisans.  Not much else.

    But you could be right

    Parent

    Who knows? (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:34:04 AM EST
    It seems to me if affected anybody it would be young women under the age of 25 who were going to vote for Bernie anyway.

    I also wonder if the independents are going to show up for Bernie or if they're going to run over to the GOP to vote in that primary.

    Parent

    Snow (none / 0) (#110)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:35:39 AM EST
    Could be a factor

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:15:21 AM EST
    Avoiding those this time.  I just think she will do surprisingly well.

    Parent
    There's a lot of talk (none / 0) (#120)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:21:21 AM EST
    About how since the republican side is so confused, 5 candidates that could either be 2nd or 6th, and the margin on the dem side seems so comfortable many independents could decide to vote in the republican primary.

    Which could have implications for dem side.

    Parent

    That's why "they" say (none / 0) (#121)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:25:01 AM EST
    It's hard to accurately poll NH voters

    Parent
    She would have to (none / 0) (#98)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:22:46 AM EST
    "best expectations".

    The "expectation" is for Sanders to win every single vote.

    If he falls short, she has bested the expectations and emerges victorious.

    God Bless America!

    Parent

    In NH primaries, historically ... (none / 0) (#169)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:19:33 PM EST
    the average win in both parties for any New Englander as candidate is 15 points.  That is the over-under.

    Parent
    Not the average win...the average bump (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:22:51 PM EST
    which in a 2 person race becomes a 30 point swing.

    Parent
    Thank you for the needed correction. (none / 0) (#184)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:02:08 PM EST
    The campaigns, both (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by KeysDan on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 11:13:04 AM EST
    Democratic and Republican, are revelatory. With intended and unintended consequences for the candidates.  And, the two campaigns inhabit different moral and intellectual universes.  

    By permitting the respective debates to serve as indicators, the contrasts become abundantly clear.

     The Republican candidates, initially entertaining to most Democrats and even Republicans, have now moved from humor to horror. Although, it was difficult not to still find humor in the pile up of candidates at the entry gate--they seemed to think that calling them to the podium was a "gotcha" question, or being politically correct.

     The last Republican debate confirmed for all to see the empty suit that was Rubio. The extremist masquerading as a moderate, and the hope of his party's establishment. His polls are falling so as to now approximate the unlovable Iowa winner. And, the deed was done by Christie, a Republican who should scrub the word, bridge from his vocabulary, even when he uses it to  "bridge" differences, as he did in the debate. Of course, Trump is still riding high, despite the fact that his big ideas are as bankrupt as his casinos.  

    The Democratic debates have shown that Mrs. Clinton is smart, experienced, knowledgeable, in detail, on a wide range of issues, and is quick on her feet.   Senator Sanders, too, has demonstrated that he is capable, his range critical, but circumscribed--effect of money on politics and income inequality. He needs to flesh out his thoughts on not only foreign policy, but also, a number of other domestic matters.

    There are few,if any, of Senator Sanders' ideas that are not relished by Democrats, Indeed, as Jeralyn points out, they are not original. For example, we have Medicare for some, and the idea of extension for all is not new. It is the ability to re-organize resources for achievement. And, if not easily or readily achievable, a better idea is needed than foreseeing a turnabout by storming the gates.

     The Democratic primary is the first opportunity for Senator Sanders to campaign beyond the state level.  So far, he is doing well especially among the young. Indeed, it has become hip for many young and those seeking young advertising demographics to support his candidacy. What they hear, they like.  And, it is not being said by Mrs. Clinton, even if she said them.  

    The Democratic primary outcome is to select the most promising candidate to oppose the Republican in fall. The stakes could not be greater. The defeat of any of the Republican contenders is paramount, making primary arguments such as idealism and pragmatism, or any other being bandied about,  pale in comparison.

     Senator Clinton will be an effective opponent (Jeb says that she would scrap the bark off Rubio, and we might add any of the others).  It remains to be seen how Senator Sanders will react to the Republican onslaught as well as the Republican candidate. He will have to have an offense and defense not yet articulated in the manner needed against the Republican--Trump, Cruz, or...  More time is needed to size up Sanders in this crucial consideration.

     

    If someone (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 11:38:51 AM EST
    like Christie can take down Rubio with one line I don't think that he would pose much of a problem for Hillary.

    Parent
    Sanders has had a quarter century in office (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:50:59 PM EST
    Much of the early years with a friendly Congress (certainly compared to post 2000 RWNJ insanity).
    How many bills has he sponsored that became law?

    And how was his term in the VA Committee?

    These are the things I am looking at now. When I watch and listen to him , I don't feel like he can cross the aisle and build coalitions (maybe he doesn't want to?) i dunno ....but that is what I think we need.

    I agree with much of his take on corruption but agreeing on the problem is not the same as agreeing on the solution.

    And Heaven knows campaigning on the way things actually ought to be is a whole lot more glamorous than campaigning on incremental change and improving what we realistically can.

    Then again, I'm a realist. I do remember trying the purity left thing before and that was McGovern. Terrified we will wind up there again. Or in 2000 again, which everyone here should remember.

    Further, as a realist, I find purity tests self-defeating, not unlike the ridiculous recent back and forth on what defines a Progressive.

    Ok 3 Sanders bills are law. Very low% (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:44:53 PM EST
    2 of which were post office namings.

    It doesn't look good but Clinton's is not much better though arguably her term was shorter and more difficult Congress wise.

    Looking into the VA stuff, conflicting info there.

    Parent

    Sanders was known as the Amendment (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:02:35 PM EST
    King, so I'd suggest you check that out; he had quite the reputation for getting, by amendment, things that were impossible in stand-alone bills.

    Parent
    I did (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:09:49 PM EST
    You and I read the same report. Amendment King, got it.

    I think "quite the reputation" for Impossible Thinngs is an exaggeration but to each his own.

    I know you like him Anne, no worries.


    Parent

    IMO (4.40 / 5) (#142)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:00:46 PM EST
    Bernie is running a Nader campaign where he's running against the party and against the GOP. It's almost like he's been in a third party mindset for so long he's stuck.

    Parent
    Like I said (5.00 / 3) (#163)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:46:33 PM EST
    I fear 2000 again.
    Where somehow, impossibly, we let a GOP lunatic into the WH.

    Parent
    Oooooo (none / 0) (#151)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:32:43 PM EST
    Nader.

    OOooooo.

    By the way, Nader has not endorsed Bernie.

    He is actually critical of Bernie for having said that he would support the winner of the primaries.

    He thinks Sanders should have held out so that he could have had some bargaining power for his endorsement should it come to that.

    I agree with Nader.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:45:18 PM EST
    you agree with Nader and that's certainly your right. My complaint with Nader is never takes responsibility for what he does and comes up with excuse after excuse.

    Parent
    50-state strategy (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Coral on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:32:32 PM EST
    Big problem for the Democrats is that there is weak or little party organization in many states and regions. It's very short-sighted, and doesn't provide the infrastructure and messaging needed to turn the tide in Congress back toward the Democrats (and to progressive ideas).

    I like Bernie's ideas, but not his lack of specific plans to get any of them implemented, or even partially implemented.

    Hillary talks about building on the foundation we have, especially on Affordable Care Act. I think there is a way forward to get some of this done. I also prefer her plans on financial regulation to Bernie's Glass-Steagel approach (because I think his approach is outdated and ignores the biggest problems with our financial system).

    What I haven't seen in the debates is direct discussion of building the party in the red states, and in some of the red areas of blue states like NY.

    I'd also like to see more questions about women's equality, reproductive rights, social security expansion (especially for older women who have suffered the most from income inequality and sex discrimination in hiring).

    I'm very strong backer of Hillary Clinton--her foreign policy experience is important, as is her ability to deal with members of the US national security establishment and the military. We tend to underestimate how important this experience is in a future president, except when watching with jaws dropped GOP candidates eagerness to bomb everything into oblivion.

    Let's face it. (none / 0) (#186)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:51:03 PM EST
    the debates stink. The moderators stink. It doesn't matter who is the moderator they all ask the same stupid questions about email and the like. Even the good questions are the same good questions that they asked at the very first debate. The most informative debate so far was the one in Charleston where they let them make a statement at the end and Hillary talked about Flint, MI.

    Parent
    Incredibly (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:42:15 PM EST
    TPM has actually called out Sanders on dirty tricks.
    He's been using American Legion emblems on his fliers and they have objected a couple of times in writing it seems (lawsuit threatened perhaps ?)...
    Of course he's also used AARP and other logos, impersonated Union officials and falsified newspaper endorsements and more.  But at least progressive media has noticed, finally. For now.

    Of course Bubba mentioning it was a scandal.

    But double standards are fun!

    In Sanders defense (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:16:44 PM EST
    I would suggest Sanders probably has no clue what some of his staff are doing in this regard until it's publicized. Many on his staff are looking to maintain a paycheck for as long as they can, anyway they can.

    Parent
    Please do not excuse (5.00 / 4) (#176)
    by smott on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:13:16 PM EST
    It is a pattern that has been apparently going awhile.
    Stealing logos and by impersonation lying that he had the endorsement of the group, even including groups that had Already endorsed Clinton.
    It's dirty tricks.
    It's his campaign, he should take responsibility.

    If it were Clinton she would be getting stayed.

    The fact that the data theft never got much traction is evidence of the double standard, his campaign raised money off that.

    No excuses.

    Parent

    No excuses? (none / 0) (#182)
    by sj on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:44:22 PM EST
    That's pretty definitive. So by your standards HRC should be publicly apologizing for push polling in Nevada then. It "is a pattern that has been apparently going awhile".

    Do you still think the candidates are responsible for everything their campaigns do?

    FTR, I am not one who thinks that. I wasn't even successful at being responsible for the actions of only one offspring. My mind boggles at being responsible for all the actions of millions of voters.

    Parent

    Guess the revolution question begging to be asked (5.00 / 3) (#172)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:39:18 PM EST
    How does a 74 year old white male that has been on a General Election ballot 20 times in his life become a revolution candidate? Shouldn't his revolution have taken place 20 elections ago?

    I'm skeptical too (none / 0) (#1)
    by ruffian on Sun Feb 07, 2016 at 07:20:26 PM EST
    Which will shock everyone here, I know.

    I just think if he were a leader, he would have tried to lead on these issues before now. He could have been building this groundswell for the last 5 years...or 50.

    We'll know soon...in Florida were ground zero for the economic meltdown, and have still not recovered. Income inequality is evident even mile to mile here in Orlando.  Despite the perception of it all being old people here, there are millions of younger service economy workers, and 3 huge universities and several smaller ones.  We should be ripe for the revolution.  If he can beat Clinton here I will know he is for real.

    So, Bernie (none / 0) (#59)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:29:58 AM EST
    may not be a revolutionary as you define it.

    I do know that Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein said Sanders is tapping into class-based anger against growing inequality and called his candidacy a "dangerous moment".

    If it is a dangerous moment for Goldman Sachs, Hillary's benefactor, that's revolutionary enough for me.

    And then there is the matter of Hillary supporting and arguing for policies which Jeralyn has described as putting a target on our backs.

    I don't want to vote for someone who is putting a target on our backs. I won"t.

    And then there is the reaching across the aisle business.

    I don't recall GW Bush reaching across the aisle to get things done, even when facing a democratic house and a democratic senate. It's just that we've become so used to flaccid and moderate leadership that we expect no more from our representatives then tepid compromise with neo-fascists.

    The frantic and often mean-spirited reaction against Sanders by establishment democrats - growing by leaps and bounds as his poll numbers increase - tells me that Sanders is in fact a revolutionary. What he is doing and saying is something which I find unprecedented in recent history. Especially compared to the politics of Obama or Clinton.

    That's revolutionary enough for me.

    And, apparently, that's revolutionary enough for Goldman Sachs.

    Revolution. (none / 0) (#103)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:27:44 AM EST
    Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein said Sanders is tapping into class-based anger against growing inequality and called his candidacy a "dangerous moment".

    Works for me.

    It is a dangerous moment (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:31:06 PM EST
    If we get another McGovern or Carter.

    It's just something young people didn't live through, good ideas executed badly destroys the popularity of good ideas.

    The Reagan "revolution" didn't happen because he appealed to right extremists, it happened cause Carter made Dems look incompetent.

    And likewise....

    The Obama "revolution" didn't happen cause Obama appealed to left wing extremists. It happened because Bush made republicans look incompetent.

    (I would add Dems have an unfair advantage in the competence department cause republican ideas are never competent LOL but that doesn't mean a dem idea guarantees competence .... anyway I'm with Blankfein here I know why reagan came to power. It was a dangerous moment I lived through and it lasted 12 years until Clinton turned it around)

    Parent

    so vote (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:33:32 PM EST
    for Clinton.

    Parent
    We agree again :) (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:39:54 PM EST
    No. (none / 0) (#165)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:48:16 PM EST
    We don't.

    I"m not voting for someone whose militaristic predilections put a target on our backs.

    But you are free to do as you please.
    I have had quite enough of Mrs. Clinton.

    Parent

    Of course you've had enough (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:21:07 PM EST
    You've been quite clear for years that you dislike all politicians (except in this case, the longest career politician on any primary ballot).


    Parent
    Not THAT clear apparently (none / 0) (#181)
    by sj on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:35:35 PM EST
    Of course you've had enough (none / 0) (#170)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:21:07 PM MDT

    You've been quite clear for years that you dislike all politicians (except in this case, the longest career politician on any primary ballot).

    If you've decided the issue is "all" or "career" politicians.

    I don't agree with everything lentinel says but I can read well enough to understand that.

    Parent

    Omnious postscript: (none / 0) (#113)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 09:41:02 AM EST
    When a powerful and imo morally bereft personage such as Mr. Blankfein using language like "dangerous" when referring to a candidate for high public office, it gives me pause.

    I have noted how entrenched power deals with people it considers "dangerous" - who it considers a threat to its continued dominance.

    Parent

    What do you imagine Wall St. (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 10:31:29 AM EST
    is conspiratorially planning to do to Sen. Sanders?

    Parent
    Suggesting (none / 0) (#135)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:15:15 PM EST
    that the man is "dangerous", could put ideas in the heads of nutty people.

    We should have let Goldman go down the drain - instead of letting our bought-and-sold government use our tax money to keep them afloat and their donor executives affluent.

    Parent

    Arguing (none / 0) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:39:52 PM EST
    about what should have been done 8 years ago is like arguing about the horse after it had left the barn.

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#166)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:49:37 PM EST
    The same people with the same ideas will do the same thing yet again.

    Especially Clinton - who has taken gobs of money from Goldman Sachs.

    I've had quite enough of them.

    Parent

    Entrenched sounds fair (5.00 / 6) (#154)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:36:25 PM EST
    since he has had his name on the ballot 20 different times in Vermont.

    Parent
    Couldn't you also say (none / 0) (#124)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 11:01:37 AM EST
    That a long term Senator and member of Congress is definitely part of the "entrenched power" and that when said Senator is calling for partial (and in some cases) complete dismantling of entire industries, how some people may regard that as "dangerous"?

    Parent
    dismantling of enitire industries.. (none / 0) (#127)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    which ones would be completely dismantled?

    Parent
    Mmm... (none / 0) (#128)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 11:45:20 AM EST
    Health insurance and all related products for starters.

    Parent
    Dangerous to whom? (none / 0) (#136)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 01:15:51 PM EST
    Careful, careful, kmk (none / 0) (#130)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 12:35:09 PM EST
    You don't want to bang up against the daily limit of comments Jeralyn told you to stick to, do you?

    A limit (1.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:00:24 PM EST
    That applies to you as well.

    Anyway I still don't understand what's going on inside the mind of a guy who caucuses with a party 98% of the time but needs to label himself something different?  I will give you one of my allocated comments if you can explain that.

    Parent

    Actually there is a limit for NEW commenters (none / 0) (#145)
    by shoephone on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:20:30 PM EST
    Four per day. You've already been called out for blog clogging and trolling.

    Good luck to you. You're going to need it.

    Parent

    This needs to be clarified then (1.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Kmkmiller on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:38:31 PM EST
    If new folks have to follow different rules and if so for how long?  Three months?  A year?

    For now I'm sticking to what I said above. I think it's fair given the amount of interaction I'm seeing here.  3 introduction of topics in open threads. 17 replies when I'm replied to.  

    It's like a debate when someone is mentioned they get 30 seconds.

    Hey. Good luck to you too!  Although I do know this for certain.  If I was a Bernie supporter your infatuation with rules would fly out the Overton window so fast.

    My last reply to you in this thread btw.

    Parent

    These are Questions... (none / 0) (#173)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:41:42 PM EST
    ...you should take up with the owner of Talk Left, Jeralyn.  talkleft@gmail.com

    She has set the policy and set your limit, arguing with anyone else is simply wasting your precious 5 or 6 comments.  I would highly recommend using your indignant tone and make sure you tell her exactly what you think about being limited when others are not.

    Or do us all a favor and keep using your 5 or 6 comment limit complaining about why you don't get more comments.

    Parent

    please read our comment rules (none / 0) (#195)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 03:17:45 AM EST
    here

     

       New commenters, i.e, those registered for 30 days or less, may not post more than 10 comments in a 24 hour period.
        All points of view are welcome on TalkLeft, with the following exception:
        TalkLeft will limit commenters to four comments a day if, in its sole discretion, the commenter is a "chatterer," loosely defined as one who both holds opposing views from those expressed by TalkLeft and :
    Posts numerous times a day with the intent of dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread;

    or

    Posts numerous times a day and insults or engages in name-calling against other commenters or the site's authors or repeatedly makes the same point with the effect of annoying other commenters. (i.e. is a blog-clogger)

    A message will be left in the last thread that the commenter chattered on advising that he or she has been limited to four comments a day. All comments in excess of this amount will be deleted. Repeated violators will be banned.



    Parent
    Jeralyn has (none / 0) (#148)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:30:10 PM EST
    written that our military course regarding ISIS in Syria puts a target on our backs.

    This is the course that has been recommended and advocated by Hillary Clinton.

    I, for one, do not feature a target on our backs.

    So, until further notice, include me out as far as she is concerned.

    I'll root for, how did she put it... Grandpa.

    (Instead (none / 0) (#162)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:45:38 PM EST
    of Grandma.)

    Parent
    Bernie is like a crankier version of (none / 0) (#153)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:34:52 PM EST
    Morrie from Tuesdays With Morrie.

    Morrie had more insight (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by Coral Gables on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:38:42 PM EST
    and I never found Morrie to be cranky.

    Parent
    Hence "crankier".. (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 02:46:51 PM EST
    And Morrie taught sociology at Brandeis and raised a fair amount of hell in the sixties, as I recall..

    One thing is, he certainly never stuck his finger in the air and then promoted the escalation of the war in Vietnam.

    Parent

    With Ash Wednesday on the calendar (none / 0) (#174)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 03:57:39 PM EST
    The matter of wrongs/rights, reconciliation & renewal loom large.  Spiritual & religious beliefs about guilt, admission, repentance, growth.

    Secular and world attitudes about wrongs, mistakes/errors in judgment (large & small), what is good & bad in a political personage dominate political seasons too.  Is repentance possible for a politicians error in judgment? Is there a statute of limitations, so to speak?

    Is there "political forgiveness?"  Many religions preach and even practice forgiveness as to sins of the spirit.  In our country, we are--thankfully--relooking at legal responses to punishment and/or rehabilitation ... an aspect of full or partial forgiveness is certainly urged by many of us here.  Yet ....

    Pardon now my <moralistic?> observation: I'm reminded of the 20+ years that my husband retained a fury at the late Senator Kennedy for his acknowledged rotten/wrong behavior at Chappaquiddick ... whenever the late Senator's name was mentioned during those years, husband would mutter or declaim the behavior no matter what the subject was and I would automatically fall into defense posture asking whether his sin was eternal as well as whether husband had suspended his otherwise expansive attitude of forgiveness toward others.  BTW, as time passed, we both got off our respective mounts.

    Parent

    I don't think there can forgiveness (none / 0) (#178)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:21:57 PM EST
    without an acknowledgement and awareness of the sin. And, unfortunately, for our designated leaders a public acknowledgement is required, if for no other reason than because they took on the responsibility of acting in our name.

    Ted's son said that Ted would never attempt to talk about what happened, even with his family. What he did was sequester himself and drink more and more. He was probably afraid of opening those floodgates that had such a heavy backlog. He wouldn't be the first one, though not too many people have ever seen two of their brothers murdered in public..


    Parent

    It is a tough area, jondee (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 05:00:26 PM EST
    For me, I find that some of the old wrongs--think LBJ's war--are viewed differently with the years.  LBJ: Loud, gross, escalator of a killing war ... contrasted with the adept politician who responsibly brought us the realization of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Medicare.  Where have I come with that: Well ... Vietnam was still wrong & he was very wrong with it; Civil Rights & Medicare were & are historically important advances for all of us ... LBJ was a complicated figure and human being ... forget and forgive are different steps.  

    Parent
    How (1.00 / 1) (#180)
    by lentinel on Mon Feb 08, 2016 at 04:35:24 PM EST
    insightful!

    Parent
    My position is known. (none / 0) (#199)
    by AX10 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 01:20:36 PM EST
    I will not be with Bernie if he gets the nod.
    He is full of himself.  It seems like 2008 all over again and the far left is with the far right in ganging up on Hillary.  It is disgusting to
    say the least.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Feb 09, 2016 at 07:52:24 PM EST
    if Bernie is the nominee we're probably looking at a Republican president and complete GOP control of all three branches of government again and perhaps even with a Bush again. Not something I look forward to reliving.

    Parent