home

Christmas Eve Open Thread

This is probably the most Un-Merry Christmas I can recall in 14 years of blogging. I'm studiously avoiding news of the UnPresident-Elect and his family so he can't rob us of any more joy than necessary over this supposed holiday season.

I am not going to report on the UnPresident Elect over the holidays, he's not the President yet, nothing he does has any significance, and the only thing I feel like doing after I read or hear his name is taking a shower. [More...]

What our country should have gotten for Christmas: an emotionally stable, qualified, intelligent, experienced leader who has a modicum of innate tact and taste, instead of the vulgar boar that a non-majority of under-informed Americans stupidly voted for.

If there's something besides the UnPresident Elect to write about, I will. I'm mostly following the news in Mexico and the Middle East. Otherwise there will be open threads for the next several days, and probably a thread on TV watching.

Tonight is also the beginning of Hanukkah.

Trump is not a friend to anyone. He's too ignorant, and one wrong move could be fatal.

Across the ocean, one wrong Trump move could unleash a wave of Arab violence that Israel could not easily subdue. And closer to home, Americans have elected a president who floated to power on a wave of hate. With derogatory remarks toward Muslims, Hispanics, women, people with disabilities and more, Trump has legitimated the sort of discourse in which Jews have never flourished.

Those with even a modicum of knowledge of Jewish history know that there has never, ever been a society that was shaped by hate that sooner or later did not come for the Jews.

Added: How others see us: Al Arabiya News' Washington Correspondent in Good Riddance to a Calamitous Year does a better job explaining Trump than timid western media.

Whether we call it “annus horribilis,” a calamitous year, or the year of the lurking snake, 2016 was a year to be forgotten. It was the year the American people gambled on randomness and ended up electing Donald Trump, the most accidental, most intemperate president imaginable.

It was the year of autocrats like Putin, and would be autocrats like Trump, and the potential for a larger European confederacy of autocrats. What is most frightening about 2016 as the annus horribilis is that it demonstrated in bold relief how thin the veneer of civilization is in the US and Europe. The election of Trump in America, the Brexit vote in Britain and the referendum in Italy in which the anti EU forces prevailed, showed how brittle liberal democracies can become in times of national or international economic stress and political uncertainty. Trump has tapped into the primordial fears of people in distress and found a willingness to tolerate otherwise intolerable behavior and accept undemocratic ways and means.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

This thread has now closed.

< Wednesday Open Thread | RIP Carrie Fisher and George Michael and Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Happy first night of Chanuka tonight (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Peter G on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 08:23:11 PM EST
    and a very merry Christmas tomorrow, J.

    And to you. We lit the first candles (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Towanda on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 12:45:57 AM EST
    tonight, with my Jewish spouse . . . and we just got back from my Protestant faith's Christmas Eve service -- and now I'm watching the Pope celebrate Mass in the faith of my childhood.  

    But the Pope is having many of the prayers said not in the Latin I still know but in other languages.  I have heard a French mass and a Spanish mass and more -- but Arabic in a mass is a wonderful first for me!

    Parent

    Growing up in the middle-east with only one (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by vml68 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 07:31:05 PM EST
    Catholic Church in our city, which had to cater to Catholics from around the world, I got to attend mass in English, Arabic, Italian, French, Tagalog, etc. For me as a kid the only fun part about going to Church was trying to figure out/translate the words in the different languages.

    Parent
    Merry Christmas, (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by desertswine on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 12:18:59 AM EST
    Happy Hanukkah, and Happy Holidays to all the Talkleft readers and contributors, and most of all to Jeralyn, thanks. Peace.

    Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah and Happy Holidays (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Cashmere on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 01:39:05 PM EST
    to all.  We arrived in Baker City, OR last night after a 2-day trip to get here (from Portland) due to weather, and found that some very nice person(s) had shoveled our snow for us!  That was the best gift ever!  Happy Holidays from our home to yours.

    http://tinyurl.com/snow-for-holidays

    Mele Kalikimaka, Cashmere. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 04:56:39 PM EST
    Glad to hear that you made it safe and sound. Driving through the Cascades in wintertime can be an adventure.

    My nephew and his family flew down here to Southern California from Redmond / Bend yesterday. They were supposed to arrive the day before, but their flight got cancelled due to the same inclement weather you were dealing with, and the earliest Alaska Airlines could accommodate and rebook them was yesterday afternoon. We had to drive down to LAX rather than nearby Burbank Airport to pick them up. But at least they made it, and traffic to and from LAX was surprisingly light, so it was only 45 minutes each way.

    Of course, SoCal has had its own weather issues, with a recent major winter storm dropping a ton of much-needed rain on the entire region all day Friday through yesterday morning. But it soon cleared afterward and today, it's absolutely gorgeous in Pasadena, clear blue skies and a delightfully crisp 55 degrees.

    Tomorrow morning, the kids are going up to Wrightwood in the San Gabriel Mountains with their cousins to go skiing and snowboarding, while we're driving down to San Diego for a few days to visit friends. Don't know how much snowboarding Elder Daughter will get in with a one-year-old son in tow, but she does enjoy being around her cousins, and I'm sure that someone will spell her so she can have a turn at the slopes.

    We'll be back on Thursday, just in time to pick up my wife's parents who are flying in to L.A. from Corpus Christi, TX for New Year's weekend, to visit for the very first time with their great-grandson. At 24 lbs., he's not so little, and he's surprisingly strong, too. I was holding him the other day when he got tired of being carried, and he used his legs to so quickly push himself away from me that I had to readjust and re-grab hold of him, so that he wouldn't just tumble to the floor.

    Enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend.

    Parent

    Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by vml68 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 07:43:48 PM EST
    and Season's Greetings to all at TL.

    It has been in the mid 80s here during the day with about 75% humidity and my air conditioner decided to stop working Friday evening. So, we went to the beach yesterday and ate out instead of sweating in the kitchen and grilled out on the patio today. The house has finally reached a bearable 80 degrees with 70% humidity now. First world problems, I know, but it hasn't felt very Christmassy.

    Showing your (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 08:30:44 AM EST
    true colors I see
    McCarthy's position was correct


    You try being assailed on all sides (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 08:58:46 AM EST
    your whole life by America-haters, commies, peace-creeps, gun-grabbers and the boogie man..

    It's enough to unhinge any man after awhile.

    Parent

    Yes he was right in his claims. (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:52:18 AM EST
    But he was wrong in his specifics. His opponents, as they are apt to do today, focused on the numbers rather than the overall truthfulness of his claims.

    The government had communist spies in it and there were plenty of fellow travelers and other, as Lenin described them, "useful idiots."

    McCarthy was a very flawed messenger and the Left, as well as Right wingers who were too shocked to believe that their college classmates were guilty of treason. That shock allowed them to combine against McCarthy and ignore, as best possible, the facts.

    It took years but finally the Venona Project became public knowledge and the NSA's role revealed.

    Although it took almost two years before American cryptologists were able to break the KGB encryption, the information gained through these transactions provided U.S. leadership insight into Soviet intentions and treasonous activities of government employees until the program was canceled in 1980.

    The VENONA files are most famous for exposing Julius (code named LIBERAL) and Ethel Rosenberg and help give indisputable evidence of their involvement with the Soviet spy ring.

    These were added to the KGB files available after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America (Annals of Communism) published by the Right Wing publisher, Yale.

    Much despised by the Left it proves that the Rosenberg's were

    instrumental in the transmission of information about top-secret military technology and prototypes of mechanisms related to the atomic bomb, which were of value to the Soviet nuclear weapons program.[1][

    Link

    Parent

    The Rosenbergs (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 03:57:42 PM EST
    actually, there's still some question about how much, if at all, Ethel was involved..

    Of course, to the perennially bloodthirsty nitwits of the American Right, frying a mother of young children in the electric chair is a small price to pay for the thrill of little old fashioned frontier justice.


    Parent

    Speaking of frying things... (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 11:37:03 PM EST
    If the Soviets had ever dropped an H bomb, that the Rosenberg's had helped them produce, hundreds of thousands of American's, young children included, would have vanished in a puff of smoke.

    Not that it seems to matter to you.

    Parent

    As if you ever gave a damn about (none / 0) (#175)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 30, 2016 at 05:44:52 PM EST
    "collateral casualities," Mr Bomb-'em-into-the-Stone-Age..

    If you weren't so deeply committed to your course of toxic ignorance, I'd suggest you educate yourself by taking a look at the newest evidence surrounding the case against "the Rosenbergs", but I know you won't.


    Parent

    Merry Christmas, Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 08:55:53 PM EST
    Hear hear Jeralyn (none / 0) (#3)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:39:46 PM EST
    I have not watched the news on t.v. since the election, and I know my mental health is much better for it.

    And, I will never, ever listen to a word Gen. Cheeto aka Orange Julius ever has to say.  Not now. Not ever.  I will not watch the inauguration, State of the Union or even so much as a sound bite.

    urban dictionary definition of (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 11:05:03 PM EST
    Boar

    To exhibit actions and/or behaviors of ignorance, self-centeredness, selfishness and a belief of superiority to others. Those who exhibit this type of behavior are often spoiled and embellish their own worth to gain attention, as well as suppress their own internal self consciousness of being substandard or worthless.


    He is a pig, but (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Towanda on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 12:41:43 AM EST
    he also is, as described in your comment, a boor.

    Parent
    I'm going with Towanda on this one (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Peter G on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 01:29:59 PM EST
    See here or here.  Very surprised not to find this one covered here, one of my favorite sites (and which I use to check myself when unsure).

    Parent
    awesome site (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by linea on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 01:50:46 PM EST
    bookmarked it!!

    Parent
    Boar, Boor, Bore (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by KD on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 04:06:15 PM EST
    He's all of the above.

    Parent
    U.S. Failure to Block UN Resolution - WaPost (none / 0) (#12)
    by Green26 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 04:51:48 PM EST
    ""From the information we have, we have no doubt that the Obama administration initiated it, stood behind it, coordinated on the wording and demanded that it be passed," Netanyahu said."

    "Israeli media reported Sunday that Netanyahu had instructed members of his cabinet to refrain from traveling to countries that voted for the resolution.

    "Following the U.N. vote, Netanyahu recalled Israel's ambassadors to New Zealand and Senegal and canceled scheduled trips to Israel by the Senegalese foreign minister and Ukraine's prime minister. He also said that Israeli aid to Senegal will be canceled and that contributions Israel makes to five U.N. agencies will be halted."

    "He [Education Minister] said that in response to the resolution, Israel should evaluate its approach to the 1994 Oslo Accords, which set out a plan for two states, one for Israelis and one for Palestinians. He said that Israel should instead impose sovereignty on land it captured after the 1967 war. He also urged the government to ramp up construction in Israeli settlements, built on land the Palestinians hope to use for a state."

    WaPost article.

    When you poke you an ally in the eye, ... (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 06:31:42 PM EST
    ... not just once but time and again as Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu has done to our president, this was the most benign of several logical outcomes.

    Netanyahu is a political provocateur, and no peacemaker. He maintains his power through the division of his own people, for which he bears a great deal of responsibility.

    The West Bank's lands belong to the Palestinians, not to the East European Jewish immigrants who are being re-settled there. Peace will never be achieved so long as that resettlement policy remains in place.

    Either Netanyahu lets go of the 40-year-old grudge he's nursed against the Palestinian people since his brother's death at Entebbe in July 1976, or Israeli voters need to show him the door before he boxes them -- and us, by extension -- into a real diplomatic and military corner.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Or, when Obama reverses course and pokes (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Green26 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 07:49:27 PM EST
    an ally, Israel, in the eye for no good reason, other than vindictiveness; that irks the ally, causes ally to take action, and causes peace process to be much harder. Yet, another foreign policy mistake for Obama, in my view.

    Parent
    Your Premises are Wrong (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by RickyJim on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 08:31:28 PM EST
    Netanyahu had been continually warned to cut it out.  
    And he continually said no, just give us the arms and the hell with making an accommodation with the Palestinians. I only wish Obama had shown some courage and done something like this much earlier.

    Parent
    No such UN resolution passed in 36 years (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Green26 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 09:51:01 PM EST
    and now Obama either lets it go thru or encourages it--in his last month in office? Wow, that is some kind of great presidential action. 600,000 or more Israelis live in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Sorry, don't think they're moving out for Palestinians.

    Will the UN start losing US funding under Trump? I think the UN is going to have to listen to Trump and avoid irking him, or he will be likely start pulling the plug. No matter how many people don't like or respect Trump, and think he shouldn't be the president, he is--and unfortunately people and countries are going to have to deal with that for 4 years.

    Parent

    Don't be obtuse. (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 06:07:30 AM EST
    The president doesn't possess the unilateral authority to abrogate our treaty obligations to an international organization of which the United States is a founding charter member and signatory.

    Further, we need the United Nations, because robust and consistent U.S. engagement with the rest of the world through the UN is imperative to the advancement of our nation's foreign policy, as well as critical to achieving our priorities in national security, economic, and humanitarian matters.

    Finally, the United States has long recognized that those Israeli settlements are illegitimate, and that their presence in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Golan Heights constitutes a violation of international law. That is also the official position of the reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions, the International Court of Justice, and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

    Doing away with or otherwise undermining that particular longstanding policy would be entirely counterproductive to our short- and long-term interests in not only the Middle East, but in Europe as well.

    Wise up.

    Parent

    Donald, not quite sure what you (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Green26 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 10:29:44 AM EST
    are talking about, but I have no doubt that Trump will have the ability to pull away from the UN is he so choses. Not that I'm advocating or supporting that.

    And back to the original topic, are you saying Obama just made the right decision on the recent UN resolution as he goes out the door? Looks unnecessary and vindictive to me. Former UN diplomats and others, other than Trump, are saying it will complicate the peace process.

    Parent

    Yes, Obama made the right call (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 12:49:18 PM EST
    Trying to place an imprint on policy before he leaves.  

    Obama acting vindictively sounds like a major projection to me--like how Orange Julius would do it.  In fact, Obama imo has not had enough Bobby style politickin'.

    Parent

    Green26: "Donald, not quite sure what you're talking about[.]"

    That's because you're too engrossed in your own d!ck-swinging politics to notice the greater world around you, and you demonstrate no real grasp of either the history of U.S. foreign policy development or the art of realpolitik. Yours is the shallow level of comprehension that's long been the hallmark of Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads.

    And that's ultimately your problem, not mine.

    Parent

    Many in Israel Blame Netanyahu, Not Obama (none / 0) (#43)
    by RickyJim on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 11:18:33 AM EST
    for the UNSC resolution.  Link.

    Parent
    Bah (none / 0) (#33)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:26:49 AM EST
    Further, we need the United Nations, because robust and consistent U.S. engagement with the rest of the world through the UN is imperative to the advancement of our nation's foreign policy, as well as critical to achieving our priorities in national security, economic, and humanitarian matters.

    The Obama doctrine has been to withdraw from the world, and that vacuum has been gladly filled as Putin and China have expanded their reach.

    As for the UN, it has become a union of petty dictators that gather to press their agendas. I would welcome their search for a new home outside the US. And take their criminals with them

    Exploitation and abuse by UN peacekeepers and personnel has been reported since the 1990s concerning peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cambodia, the Democratic Republic of Congo, East Timor, Haiti, Liberia, Sierra Leone, and South Sudan, among others. Troops from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Uganda, Burundi, the Republic of Congo, and the Democratic Republic of Congo have been among those implicated in the abuse, although some of those cases concerned peacekeeping forces led by the African Union.

    http://tinyurl.com/z9jmcj4

    Parent

    Trump will help Putin (none / 0) (#34)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 08:45:59 AM EST
    extend his reach--far more than anything you say Obama has done.  

    And what facts do you have that China is filling a vacuum that we have left?

    You sound like a neocon pining away for the days of Bush ("W").

     

    Parent

    Making military bases (none / 0) (#37)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 09:12:19 AM EST
    On what are newly created artificial islands in the South China Sea, what were once free and open shipping lanes.

    H

    ong Kong (CNN)New satellite imagery indicates that China has installed weapon systems on all seven artificial islands it has built in the contested waters of the South China Sea.

    It's a move that's likely to alarm the country's neighbors and further unsettle ties with the United States, where President-elect Donald Trump has shown himself increasingly willing to confront and challenge Beijing.
    The images, released by the Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative, show anti-aircraft guns plus other weapons systems that would guard against cruise missiles sitting in hexagonal structures on the islands.



    Parent
    Well, Gen . Cheeto (none / 0) (#40)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 10:20:36 AM EST
    will find a way to confront them, and with a little luck create a trade war.

    Parent
    We already are in a trade war (none / 0) (#44)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 12:21:09 PM EST
    Except we are not fighting.

    The U.S. trade deficit with China was $365.7 billion in 2015 This is a new record, up slightly from last year's record of $343 billion. The trade deficit exists because U.S. exports to China were only $116.2 billion while imports from China hit a new record of $481.9 billion.


    Parent
    Smoot Hawley here we come! (none / 0) (#46)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 12:35:44 PM EST
    Awesome.  Gen. Cheeto will charge right ahead.

    Parent
    There is already was a palestinian state (none / 0) (#116)
    by thomas rogan on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:37:05 PM EST
    Based on the 1948 UN resolution there was a Jewish state called Israel and a state where Arabs lived called Jordan, with other Arabs living in the Gaza strip and that being part of Egypt.  
    In 1948 you didn't exactly see Jordan giving up the West Bank to be "Palestine" when it was THEIRS.

    And people who support democracy, free press, women's rights, or LGBT rights don't exactly do so well in the many nations ruled by Arabs.  

    Parent

    That's actually not what happened at all. (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 02:32:37 PM EST
    You are deliberately conflating two distinct territories, Palestine and Transjordan, both of which existed under British mandate from the end of the First World War through the end of the Second World War.

    The November 1947 UN resolution provided for division of Mandatory Palestine into a Jewish state and Palestinian Arab state, which was to have taken effect upon the formal end of the British mandate for the territory on May 14, 1948.

    It is worth noting that the UN partition granted to the Jewish state lands which were far in excess of the actual extent of then-existing Jewish settlement in Palestine at the time. Further, the UN partition of Palestine did not include the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which had actually gained its independence from Britain a full two years earlier in May 1946.

    The evening prior to the expiration of the British mandate in Palestine, David Ben-Gurion, the executive head of the Zionist Organization and president of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel."

    It is also worth noting that Ben-Gurion's declaration did not specifically designate Israel's borders as those drawn by the United Nations, likely because those borders did not include the city of Jerusalem, which was to have remained wholly within the territory of the adjacent Palestinian Arab state, albeit under formal UN administration. Ben-Gurion and the Zionist Organization had long coveted Jerusalem as the future capital of a Jewish state, and had made no secret of their designs upon the city to that effect.

    Israel's Arab neighbors, which included the Kingdom of Jordan, invaded the newly self-declared country the following day, touching of what's now known as the Israeli War of Independence. Hostilities concluded one year later with a cease-fire and temporary Israeli borders, which became known as the "Green line" and which effectively served as Israel's designated borders prior to the 1967 Six-Day War.

    The new nation's expanded territory included lands above and beyond the original boundaries established by the 1947 UN partition, and included West Jerusalem, which Israeli forces had conquered during the war. East Jerusalem remained under Arab control.

    It's been estimated that some 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were displaced by the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence, having fled their homes in the Jewish state ahead of advancing Israeli forces and relocated to the West Bank and Gaza. Only in 1949, upon the war's conclusion, did Jordan formally annex the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the kingdom, while Egypt simultaneously took control of Gaza.

    That's the historical record, Thomas. You can't simply rewrite it to conform to a preferred conservative narrative, in lieu of the actual one that's based upon that record. While such facts may be stubborn and frustrating, one's perceived inconvenience doesn't render history a disposable commodity in the furtherance of one's particular agenda.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    14-0 vote (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by linea on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 12:22:49 PM EST
    that israel halt the flagrant violation of international law and halt all settlement activities in order to salvage a two-state solution.

    this resolution was supported by (among others) france, spain, uk, japan, and new zealand. most countries dont give israel carte blanche based on an absurd assertion of a biblical divine right like many in the the united states do.

    Parent

    facts (none / 0) (#118)
    by thomas rogan on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:40:36 PM EST
    settlements are limited in scope and do not extend in most of the west bank.  Israel pulled Jewish settlements out of Gaza.  Land always shifts on the ground--consider the shifts in Germany's borders since 1914, none of which violate today's international law, or fluid borders for what may or may not be Kurdistan.  
    Jordan could have given up the West Bank to be "Palestine" in 1949 when it was their very own and Israel could have done nothing about it.  

    Parent
    Israel could have done nothing about it (none / 0) (#119)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:55:45 PM EST
    in the light of the history of the last couple of decades, I think you underestimate Israel's resourcefulness.

    Parent
    Forget it, jondee. (none / 0) (#162)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 07:10:10 PM EST
    By not knowing the events which transpired in that part of the world during the period of 1945-50 when Israel and Jordan achieved independence, thomas rogan is misstating facts and he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. He seems to believe that the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (formerly the British-controlled Mandate of Transjordan) was an integral part of the 1947 UN partition plan for Mandatory Palestine, when it was not.

    Parent
    Have You Looked At The Map? (none / 0) (#125)
    by RickyJim on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 11:02:01 PM EST
    For example.How can there be an Arab State on the West Bank with all those Jewish enclaves which will require Israeli security to maintain? That is what the UNSC resolution was all about.

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#28)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 10:43:19 PM EST
    Has shown himself to be quite petty. To do this on his way out, after The Donald convinced Egypt to withdraw the resolution. It appears that Obama convinced other nations to once again bring the resolution back up.

    Correct, there will never be peace in the Middle east , especially when the Palestinians have refused to state Israels right to even exist. I think that may be a bigger detriment to peace than settlements. To deny a country's right to exist? Nah, no peace coming.

    Shameful , the one democracy in the middle east, and Obama showed his true colors as he is walking out the door.

    The Donald will be taking a different approach to the UN. And they know it.

    Parent

    "The Donald" is NOT the president. (5.00 / 6) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 05:24:42 AM EST
    TrevorBolder: "To do this on his way out, after The Donald convinced Egypt to withdraw the resolution."

    Obama still holds the job for another four weeks. As president-elect, Trump has neither the authority nor the standing to be negotiating agreements with other nations on behalf of the United States, without first obtaining the prior concurrence of the present chief executive. To do otherwise would constitute a violation of the Logan Act.

    You know, for someone who claims he didn't support Trump, you sure seem to be kissing the guy's a$$ a lot around here of late.

    :-|

    Parent

    Some of things he does (none / 0) (#32)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:15:06 AM EST
    I agree with. And will gladly state that fact. I have also stated my fears over what he will do to the national debt.
    In this case I wholeheartedly agree with The Donald.
    He made a phone call to Egypt, and they concurred it would be in Egypts best interests going forward to withdraw the resolution. For FUTURE relations with Egypt.
    I was more distressed with Obama's cowardly act while going out the door. He could have done that at any time over the past 8 years, to do it now is the act of a coward. Any Israeli citizen now living in those areas can be charged with a war crime.

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/

    To give you an idea of how appalling this resolution is, it declares that any Jew who lives in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, the Jewish quarter, inhabited for 1,000 years, is illegal, breaking international law, essentially an outlaw, can be hauled into the international criminal court and international courts in Europe, which is one of the consequences. The Jewish quarter has been populated by Jews for 1,000 years. In the war of Independence in 1948, the Arabs invaded Israel to wipe it out. They did not succeed, but the Arab Legion succeeded in conquering the Jewish quarter. They expelled all the Jews. They destroyed all the synagogues and all the homes. For 19 years, no Jew could go there. The Israelis got it back in the Six-Day War. Now it's declared that this is not Jewish territory. Remember, it's called 'the Jewish quarter,' but it belongs to other people. And any Jew who lives there is an outlaw. That's exactly what we supported. The resolution is explicit in saying settlements in the occupied territories and in east Jerusalem."


    Parent
    Truth Squad Here (none / 0) (#38)
    by RickyJim on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 09:22:07 AM EST
    First of all, while this has been the first time Obama has done it, there have been a number of abstentions by the US to anti-Israel Security Council resolutions.  Here is a list on Seth Frantzman's blog. For example,
    The US abstained on UN Resolution in 1322 in 2000. Sponsored by Malaysia it deplored the visit of Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount. The resolution referenced former resolutions such as 242 and 228 and in that sense called on Israel to return to the 1967 lines. The US worked to water-down the resolution's deep anti-Israel language, but still abstained at the end.

    Secondly, I urge readers to tackle the actual language of the 3 page resolution 2334.  The quote from Ann Althouse's blog is a big distortion.  Yes, 2000 Jews were displaced from the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem in 1948 but how can that compare to the numbers of Arabs who were displaced then?  I am sure that the Palestinians would gladly agree to let the Jews have the Jewish Quarter in return for the Arabs having the right of return to the lands taken from them. If you think the language of 2334 unjustly threatens Jews displaced in 1948 that returned in 1967, what rights do Arabs displaced since 1948, especially those displaced much more recently in the West Bank have?

    Parent

    All perception (none / 0) (#39)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 09:48:04 AM EST
    She was quoting Charles Krauthammer, and sorry, but the whole settlement issue goes back further than 1948.

    But when does Israel get a right to exist?

    The old statement still holds true,,,
     Israel has had nuclear weapons for quite a while, and have never used them.
    Now just imagine the Palestinians having nuclear weapons, nah, I would rather not

    What happened today is that the United States joined the jackals at the U.N. That was a phrase used by Pat Moynihan, the great Democratic senator, the former U.S. ambassador who spoke for the United States standing up in the U.N. and to resist this kind of disgrace. To give you an idea of how appalling this resolution is, it declares that any Jew who lives in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, the Jewish quarter, inhabited for 1,000 years, is illegal, breaking international law, essentially an outlaw, can be hauled into the international criminal court and international courts in Europe, which is one of the consequences. The Jewish quarter has been populated by Jews for 1,000 years. In the war of Independence in 1948, the Arabs invaded Israel to wipe it out. They did not succeed, but the Arab Legion succeeded in conquering the Jewish quarter. They expelled all the Jews. They destroyed all the synagogues and all the homes. For 19 years, no Jew could go there. The Israelis got it back in the Six-Day War. Now it's declared that this is not Jewish territory. Remember, it's called "the Jewish quarter," but it belongs to other people. And any Jew who lives there is an outlaw. That's exactly what we supported. The resolution is explicit in saying settlements in the occupied territories and in east Jerusalem.


    Parent
    TrevorBolder: "She was quoting Charles Krauthammer, and sorry, but the whole settlement issue goes back further than 1948."

    Seriously, Trevor, the First World War has long been over, and neither the Ottoman Empire nor the British Empire exist in their former states.

    Israel's existence as an independent nation is an accomplished fact. How that nation chooses to exist relative to its immediate neighbors is the prevailing open question. And I would offer that it's an issue over which the United States retains sufficiently compelling interest, that we ought to rightly exercise our present leverage over the Jewish state to bring its government to come to the negotiating table -- by coercion, if necessary.

    We have an abiding and overriding interest in seeing that a conclusive and comprehensive peace be finally established in the Mideast region. We cannot hope to accomplish that through the continued maintenance of a now-crumbling status quo based upon the obsolescent power dynamics of eras long since passed, which don't necessarily lend themselves to an entirely favorable outcome in any respect.

    Try to reassess your position from a reality-based perspective.  

    Parent

    Try to reassess your position (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:14:20 PM EST
    from a reality-based perspective.

    Do you really think the Palestinians, the ones in charge, and their violent supporters (Hamas) really want peace?

    You, if you really believe that then you are the one who needs to become reality based.
    Israel is a liberal democracy, please point out another one in the Middle East.

    What Arab nation has Jewish citizens?

    Obama just exacerbated the whole Middle East situation, knowing full well that the following administration will do everything to reverse his action. That was a childish  petty action, as it will hamper any chance of seeing peace.

    Parent

    Try To Say What You Really Think Trevor (none / 0) (#71)
    by RickyJim on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:41:12 PM EST
    You and Green constantly assert than somehow the US abstention somehow makes peace harder to come and give no explanation.  The reason stated for the US abstention was that the Israeli West Bank settlement and building policy makes it harder for there to be a viable state for the 2.7 million Palestinian residents.  What is your refutation of that?  Or do you have a better solution than a Palestinian State?  Would you prefer that Israel annex the West Bank?  I wouldn't mind they do that, providing they grant full Israeli citizenship to all the 2.7 million Palestinians living there..

    Parent
    ... to be wholly unable of offering genuine and thoughtful analysis. Rather, you continually resort to right-wing bluster, underscored by simplistic conservative talking points -- e.g., "Israel is a liberal democracy, please point out another one in the Middle East" -- to make an argument which is often untethered from the reality of a given situation.

    The fact that Israel is a democracy is entirely beside the point here, for the simple fact that even democracies can be wrong and make bad policy. The reason that's the case here is because the Israeli electorate is also an almost hopelessly fractured partisan mess. Prime Minister Netanyahu recently gained his re-election by exacerbating and exploiting those factional differences, so that his Likud party could attain a plurality of seats in the Knesset despite receiving only 29% of the public vote.

    Time and again, you and other right-wingers try to reduce the debate to a simple "us versus them" issue. But the reality of Middle Eastern societies and politics across the region is far more complicated and intricate than you can apparently perceive and appreciate. And as such, the quest for a peaceful resolution requires much more nuanced thought and effort than you're obviously capable of providing.

    Go troll someone else.

    Parent

    You are forever (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 05:55:24 AM EST
    Tied to your liberal talking points,
    And refuse to acknowledge the reality staring you in your face.
    Too ironic, everything you state is a mirror of your own statements.
    Israel is a liberal democracy, everything else...  Sorry for the inconvenient fact.
    Palestinians are run by Hamas, committed to Israels destruction. Hamas is funded and guided by Iran. That is all real.
    Come down off your liberal pedestal, with fancy words and slogans, roll up your sleeves and get in the mud of the Middle East. Israel, the lone liberal democracy in the Middle East, surrounded by those that want it eradicated from the earth, and you want to make that end game easier to happen. That is reality.

    Iran, Hamas, do not want peace, they want to use Israel as a rallying point to flame up the mob. Peace could have been had years ago, before any settlements, but Hamas and Iran refuse.

    And what the outgoing President just did was push the incoming administration and the UN into a conflict, unnecessarily. Another fine addition to the Obama legacy.

    Parent

    So confusing (none / 0) (#82)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 07:54:09 AM EST
    Your reply appeared to be directed at yourself, apart from the complaints of "liberal talking point" and the Obama administration.

    And what the outgoing President just did was push the incoming administration and the UN into a conflict, unnecessarily. Another fine addition to the Obama legacy.

    No, he didn't.  What the incoming administration chooses to do is on them - and those supporting and defending their ridiculous/irresponsible statements - and soon to be ridiculous and irresponsible actions.

    Parent

    An outgoing administration (none / 0) (#90)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 07:27:42 PM EST
    Should not engage in foreign policy decisions, especially non essential ones, even more so when they know their actions are the antithesis of what the incoming administration desires.

    They should have blocked the resolution, and let whomever wants to re introduce it do so with the mew administration in place.

    What makes it worse is Israel claims that they have evidence that the Obama Administration encouraged the re introduction of the resolution after Egypt withdrew the resolution.

    It will exacerbate the poor relations that the incoming administration will have with the UN, most likely to the detriment of the UN.

    A childish and petty move by Obama.

    Parent

    Ahhhhhhhhh ..... (none / 0) (#91)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 07:31:44 PM EST
    Didn't realize someone had appointed you the arbiter of the rules appropriate foreign policy conduct.

    Heh.

    Parent

    But, the rules are (none / 0) (#97)
    by KeysDan on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 02:39:32 PM EST
    always side with Putin or Bibi when in doubt. Or, not in doubt, such as "evidence" against the US President obtained by illegal hacking or espionage.

    Parent
    TrevorBolder: "Iran, Hamas, do not want peace, they want to use Israel as a rallying point to flame up the mob. Peace could have been had years ago, before any settlements, but Hamas and Iran refuse."

    ... in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights date back to that country's quick and spectacular military triumph over its Arab neighbors in the 1967 Six-Day War, which left it in effective military possession of vast swaths of occupied Arab territory which left it nearly double in size. Not only did Israel control all of the former territory of Mandatory Palestine, it also occupied the entirety of Egypt's Sinai Peninsula from Gaza to Sharm el Sheikh to the Suez Canal.

    Not long after that 1967 war, Jewish settlers - mostly militant expansionists who subscribed to the notion of a "Greater Judea" - began moving into those occupied territories. And while the Israeli government didn't encourage those settlers during those early days, neither did it make any real attempts to discourage or stop them. Thus, this issue long predates by well over a decade the arrival of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic Republican of Iran on the scene.

    The Munich Olympics tragedy in September 1972 and the Yom Kippur War of October 1973 proved to be real wakeup calls to then-Prime Minister Golda Meir and her government, upon their realization that Israel's continued hold on its occupied Arab territories precluded any effort on their part to truly seek rapprochement and an understanding with their Arab neighbors.

    Occupation was increasingly seen by Israeli citizens as a burden on the country's security efforts, rather than an enhancement and buffer. At that point, Jewish settlements in those territories became a real problem. They proved to be a real sticking point in President Carter's ultimately successful attempt to broker the 1979 Camp David Peace Accords between Israel and Egypt.

    When then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin finally agreed to give up the Sinai Peninsula, the settler movement turned militant and resistant. As the Israeli Defense Forces gradually withdrew eastward toward Israel's 1967 borders over the following few years, they had to forcibly eject large numbers of Jewish settlers from the El Arish area on the Sinai's Mediterranean coast, and Sharm el Sheikh on the Red Sea.

    Continued occupation of the West Bank compels Israel to confront and contend with evermore repressive measures an increasingly resentful and hostile populace of some 2.8 million Palestinian Arabs, one which is fully one-third the size of Israel's own population of 8.3 million citizens. Further, it should be remembered that about 20% of that citizenry are Israeli Arabs, who share a common culture with their Palestinian brethren and tend to sympathize with their plight.

    One can therefore oppose the current Israeli government's settlement policies, precisely because one supports Israel as a Jewish homeland. Speaking for myself only, I don't want to see Prime Minister Netanyahu lead that nation any further down a potential road to inevitable ruin, by which Israelis eventually find themselves isolated from the world community at large, and neither secure, nor prosperous, nor democratic, nor even necessarily Jewish any more. And that's the trajectory Netanyahu has charted for them.

    That nuanced concept is apparently way beyond your limited capacity to grasp, likely due to your own general intellectual laziness and corresponding dependence upon right-wing talking points to make someone else's ignorant case for them. And so, you continue to blather away in a manner which hardly constitutes original thought on your part, and which isn't even remotely tethered in reality.

    Okay, now THAT'S my final word on the subject. In the meantime, do try to educate yourself in these important matters, and cease your vulnerability to other people's attempts to spin everything into an "us vs. them" scenario. Some situations around the world are sufficiently complex that they really do defy such efforts, and you only end up misleading your own self. This so happens to be one of them.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Dec 30, 2016 at 05:22:48 AM EST
    Okay, now THAT'S my final word on the subject.

    And what the hell did any of that have to do with

    TrevorBolder: "Iran, Hamas, do not want peace, they want to use Israel as a rallying point to flame up the mob. Peace could have been had years ago, before any settlements, but Hamas and Iran refuse."

    Nothing

    It is obvious that Hamas does not want to negotiate, and any agreement made 20, 30 years ago would have stopped the advancement of these settlements.
    Palestinians are not willing to negotiate, they want international law to declare them a country, and evict the settlers who have been there for 20, 30 years as illegal immigrants

    Parent

    Read my comments in full before you respond. (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 07:00:46 AM EST
    TrevorBolder: "And what the hell did any of that half to do with 'Iran, Hamas, do not want peace, they want to use Israel as a rallying point to flame up the mob. Peace could have been had years ago, before any settlements, but Hamas and Iran refuse.' Nothing."

    You clearly did not. Because if you HAD actually done so, you'd have noticed the following paragraph:

    "Not long after that 1967 war, Jewish settlers - mostly militant expansionists who subscribed to the notion of a "Greater Judea" - began moving into those occupied territories. And while the Israeli government didn't encourage those settlers during those early days, neither did it make any real attempts to discourage or stop them. Thus, this issue long predates by well over a decade the arrival of Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic Republic of Iran on the scene." (Emphasis is mine.)

    That should have given you a hint that your statement as requoted above likely doesn't comport and align with any actual historical facts. Specifically in that regard, I would note the following four points:

    • Israeli settlement of the occupied territories first began in late 1967 and early 1968;
    • Israel and the ruling Pahlavi dynasty of Iran were on friendly terms prior to Iranian Revolution of 1978-79, and had maintained diplomatic relations with one another;
    • The Islamic Republic of Iran was not founded until Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi was overthrown by the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in April 1979; and
    • Hamas was not founded until 1987, when it had evolved as a Palestinian offshoot of the militant Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

    Thus, it's pretty obvious that peace between Israel, Hamas and Iran could NOT "have been had years ago, before any settlements," since neither Hamas nor the Islamic Republic of Iran had even existed at the time Israeli settlers first began moving into the occupied territories in 1967-68. And therefore, your statement is categorically false on its face.

    And that rather glaring lack of historical knowledge on your part once again proves that on this particular issue, just like so many others, you really don't know what you're talking about. So, please resist any further urge to double down on stupid, and have a nice New Year's Eve.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Please (none / 0) (#178)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 07:56:30 AM EST
    Deal with the reality as it is today.

    From the 1990's on, there have been several peace proposals, peace for land, all rejected by the Palestinians. And most of the settlements as they stand today  would never have been built.
    Palestinians have no desire to negotiate for peace, they have proven that by electing Hamas.

    And the resolution just gives them more incentive to never negotiate, they will follow up by going to international courts. Negotiation was never in their playbook.

    Is it anti semitism? Or just why is the left so keen on pushing terrorists rights?
    At least the Brits and the Aussies had the sense to smack Kerry down....  

    "we do not believe that it is appropriate to attack the composition of the democratically elected government of an ally." It said in an emailed statement late Thursday that "we are also clear that the settlements are far from the only problem in this conflict. In particular, the people of Israel deserve to live free from the threat of terrorism, with which they have had to cope for too long." and state that the settlements


    Parent
    The Left is not "keen" (none / 0) (#179)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 10:11:10 AM EST
    on pushing terrorist rights.  Eff you.

    What I believe many on the Left are concerned with is Israel's flagrant flouting of UN Resolutions, which only make a two state solution harder.

    And, not all Palestinians are terrorists; I know they make all look alike to you.

    Parent

    they may all look alike (none / 0) (#180)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 10:14:48 AM EST
    Not surprising that the guy (none / 0) (#183)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 10:44:46 AM EST
    who pulls the debate-sabotaging anti-semitism card also equates all Palestinians with terrorists.

    I guess, it proves, if nothing else, that all libertarians aren't completely committed to rationality and rational discourse.

    Parent

    The UN (none / 0) (#181)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 10:33:38 AM EST
    Is anti semitic. It holds no credence.

    77 resolutions targeting Israel since 1952

    1 targeting the Palestinians.

    Well, if the Palestinians agreed to any of the proposed peace offerings from 1990 on, there would not be all those settlements.

    Quite apparent they do not peace. When Hamas is elected to leadership of the Palestinians, well, they support a terrorist group to act in their behalf.  Nuff said.

    Again, the UN is anti Semitic   from 2015

    Israel, a liberal democracy, and all the countries in the world run by dictators, human rights violations, gays, women second or third class citizens, and this is what the UN spits out.

    GENEVA, November 25 - The U.N. General Assembly's 2015 session is adopting 20 resolutions singling out Israel for criticism -- and only 3 resolutions on the rest of the world combined.

    All but one of the texts have already been adopted by the plenary yesterday, or have been approved at the initial committee vote. See texts and votes below.

    The three that do not concern Israel are: one on Syria, a regime that has murdered more than 200,000 of its own people, one on Iran, and one on North Korea.

    Not a single UNGA resolution this year (70th session) is expected to be adopted on gross and systematic abuses committed by China, Cuba, Egypt, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Yemen, Zimbabwe, or on dozens of other perpetrators of gross and systematic human rights violations.



    Parent
    The UN created Israel (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 10:44:13 AM EST
    You would think Israel would at least abide by the Resolutions of that which gave it birth.

    But, as I have said here before, Israel is biting off more than it can chew.  Its de facto annexation of the West Bank will turn it into South Africa.  Apartheid will work only so long, and eventually the majority Arabs will rule Palestine.

    The Jewish State will be wiped off the face of the earth through gradual self-immolation via demographics.  

    The settlements are very foolish and short-sided.

    I know you really, really don't like the Palestinian people, but they are people after all.  And even if it makes you feel better to think of them all as terrorists, that dehumanization of them makes killing them all that more easy.  I do not agree.

    Parent

    You don"t like dictators? (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 10:49:46 AM EST
    God help me, but I thought Republicans and Trump liked Putin and dictators.....because they are such strong leaders.

    But now you say you don't like countries run by dictators.  I am totally lost.  Can someone please provide me with the Secret Decoder Ring?  I have got the bottom of the box of cereal and nothing I can find makes sense of this drivel.

    Parent

    No they don't (none / 0) (#189)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 12:43:42 PM EST
    The Donald is not a Republican, or ever was one.

    Republicans are still crazy anti red. That hasn't changed.

    But please explain further, you do agree that the UN is anti Semitic,

    Just based on the 2015 resolutions alone.
    20 for the evil Jews of Israel, 3 for the kinder gentler nations residing on in our world.

    Lets not discuss the 77 resolutions regarding Israel and the 1 on the Palestinians.

    Parent

    Good God, get serious Trevor (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 01:20:31 PM EST
    Ben Carson to head HUD?!

    Rick effing Perry, who couldn't even remember what the Department of Energy was, to head the Department of Energy?!

    Are folks misremembering when they recall Trump making a loyalty pledge to the GOP awhile back, and letting their imaginations run wild when they think that loyalty pledge entailed a certain adherence to the basic platform of the GOP and a few unspoken promises to some prominent representatives of the GOP base?

    Sure. Trump isn't a Republican. Not at all.

    Parent

    Faith-based political analysis? (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 01:35:28 PM EST
    is that what this is?

    So it becomes a simple, cut-and-dried war of Good vs Evil in Israel-Palestine..deregulated Free Markets as a magic Universal Panacea..and all one has to do is close one's eyes, click your heels together three times and say "Trump is not a Republican" and Voila! he's not a Republican.

    Parent

    As a simple matter (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 02:57:50 PM EST
    of fact, Trump is a Republican.

    And, those members of the GOP who say he does not believe in standard GOP policies show they are not serious by kissing Donald's arse at every turn.

    You guys are so busy defending Trump, it is not credible to say you oppose him or anything he says.  You do support him. As a simple matter of fact.

    And Trump is so far up Putin's arse, only Trump's shoes are showing.  You support that because you support Trump.  Can't have it both ways.

    Parent

    clearly (none / 0) (#195)
    by linea on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 07:38:35 PM EST
    political advisors and consultants put together trump's "conservative populist" platform. any part (which is most) that isnt in his personal financial business interests will be ignored by trump. in my opinion.

    Parent
    No, No and No (none / 0) (#199)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 09:02:14 PM EST
    The Donalds immediate and closest advisors, Steve Bannon, Jared Kushner and Ivanka.
    As they progressed along the primary route they by necessity added political talent, Conway.
    And Priebus remarkably kept the primary process moving forward without bias for the establishment, something that wasn't done on the Democratic side

    Parent
    Seriously delusional (none / 0) (#197)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 08:24:21 PM EST
    The Donald is not a Republican, or ever was one.

    I understand why you want to pretend he's not a Republican, but he absolutely is.  He ran as a Republican and 89% of Republicans voted for him.  He's what your party has become - he perfectly represents your party.


    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#198)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 08:59:26 PM EST
    Obviously you didn't pay attention to the primaries.
    There were over a dozen traditional Republican candidates, with a couple out of the box, and then there was The Donald.
    Who ran on on a big spending bill, trade protectionism, pulling back militarily around the world...and Throw out the political elite bums.
    The Donald was the wakeup call to the Republican Party as The Bern was to the Democrats.
    Only the revolutionary candidate won the Republican primary and fell a little short in the Democratic race.

    Parent
    TrevorBolder: "From the 1990's on, there have been several peace proposals, peace for land, all rejected by the Palestinians. And most of the settlements as they stand today  would never have been built. Palestinians have no desire to negotiate for peace, they have proven that by electing Hamas. And the resolution just gives them more incentive to never negotiate, they will follow up by going to international courts. Negotiation was never in their playbook. Is it anti semitism? Or just why is the left so keen on pushing terrorists rights?"

    You haven't a phuquing clue, Trevor. You prefer to live in a fact-free parallel universe that's fueled by racist paranoia, and propelled by right-wing faerie tales.

    When confronted with your own bullschitt, you merely respond with more baseless claims about Palestinians not being interested in negotiation, even though there's more than ample evidence to the contrary.

    Only this time, you falsely equate the Palestinian people as the equivalent of terrorists, and you level an appallingly malicious accusation of anti-Semitism against the U.S. left.

    Your nonsensically ignorant and bigoted posts are both moronic and childish, and constitute nothing more than a complete waste of bandwidth.

    Go troll somewhere else.

    Parent

    Donald, can you provide some support for this? (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Green26 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 07:53:20 PM EST
    "... more baseless claims about Palestinians not being interested in negotiation, even though there's more than ample evidence to the contrary"

    Parent
    Oh, for Heaven's sake! Look it up yourself. (none / 0) (#202)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 01, 2017 at 06:28:52 PM EST
    It's hardly a secret that the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated with one another throughout the 1990s. Yitzak Rabin, Shimon Peres and Yasser Arafat were even awarded the 1994 Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts, and Rabin himself ultimately lost his life at the hands of a Jewish right-wing extremist because of his pursuit of peace and reconciliation with the Palestinians.

    The reason why you and Trevor are so far out there in the right-wing weeds on this particular issue is because for some unfathomable reason, the two of you have apparently decided that history and its attendant historical record are neither important nor relevant to you. Thus, the overarching historical narrative can thus be freely ignored, willfully misconstrued and / or relentlessly misstated as a simple matter of short-term rhetorical convenience.

    It's really a waste of time to further engage either of you on this subject.

    Parent

    Love that fact filled post (none / 0) (#200)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 09:04:32 PM EST
    Childish tantrum indicates that you also believe the UN to be anti Semitic.
    The facts on resolutions passed in that sorry institution are proof enough.

    Now wipe the spittle off of your screen, and the drool from your mouth

    Parent

    Hamas might not have (none / 0) (#185)
    by BTAL on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 11:11:00 AM EST
    been formed until 1987.  But, the PLO was formed in 1964 with the stated published charter to liberate Palestine via armed struggle.  AKA - disavow & destroy Israel.  Hamas was its replacement - SSDD.

    Parent
    Ararat called Hamas (none / 0) (#186)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 11:49:57 AM EST
    "A creature of Israel" and said that he discussed this with Rabin during Oslo and Robin told him that it was "a fatal error" for the Israelis to have encouraged the growth of Hamas. The theory being that Hamas would be a force against Palestinian nationalism.

    In the '50s and '60s, the Muslim Brotherhood fought against the Nasserists, the Bath Party, the communists, and the rest of the Arab left, and in it's beginnings Hamas was a bitter opponent of Palestinian nationalism and refused to participate under the PLO umbrella..

    There's evidence that the Israeli intelligence services encouraged the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood, and eventually Hamas, in the hopes that they could be deployed against the PLO and Fatah.

    Parent

    Ararat..Arafat.. (none / 0) (#187)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 11:54:27 AM EST
    What jondee said, BTAL. (none / 0) (#194)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 07:17:44 PM EST
    BTAL: "[T]he PLO was formed in 1964 with the stated published charter to liberate Palestine via armed struggle.  AKA - disavow & destroy Israel.  Hamas was its replacement - SSDD."

    Hamas, as co-founded in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and Mahmoud Zahar, was borne of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and not of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), now known as the Palestinian Authority (PA).

    In fact, Hamas is a militant Islamic fundamentalist movement that is politically antithetical to the more secular PA and as such, it constitutes the PA's mortal rival. Hamas adamantly opposed on religious grounds the 1993 Oslo Accords, which first recognized the PA and granted Palestinians limited self-government in the West Bank and Gaza.

    Hamas gained significant political strength and popularity, particularly in densely populated Gaza, after the Nov. 1995 assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin by a Jewish right-wing extremist. Rabin was seen by both Jewish and Muslim fundamentalists as a secularist and conciliator, and his untimely death signaled a hard right turn in both Israeli politics and that country's attitudes and policies toward the 4.5 million Palestinians then residing in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza.

    As long as you guys on the right refuse to acknowledge the multi-faceted and often confounding complexities which underscore the actual 70-year history of the Arab-Israeli conflict -- and even worse still, attempt to rewrite that history so that it fits your own preferred and simplistic narrative about the way things really oughta be -- not only will you never be able to find a longstanding and peaceful solution to what's long been an intractable problem, but like Dick Cheney and his myopic friends, you will succeed only in making matters even worse than they already are.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The point (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by BTAL on Sun Jan 01, 2017 at 05:33:12 AM EST
    is that organizations dedicated to the destruction of Israel have been around long before your Hamas timeline that you laid out attempting to argue with Trevor.  Israel has been under attack since 1948.  Which group or nation attacking is irrelevant.

    Parent
    But that's not the point at all, because ... (none / 0) (#203)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jan 01, 2017 at 07:22:38 PM EST
    BTAL: "Israel has been under attack since 1948.  Which group or nation attacking is irrelevant."

    ... Trevor quite obviously wasn't talking about the PLO. Rather, he was specifically talking about Hamas and the Islamic Republic of Iran.

    Further, the PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah are each completely different entities with divergent goals, objectives and motives. You can't merely conflate the entirety of Israel's opposition over the decades as all one and the same, as you are attempting to do here with Hamas and the PLO.

    Your statement is both simplistic and nonsensical, in that just like Trevor and Green, you're attempting to reduce an extraordinarily complex and multi-faceted issue to a childish "Us vs. Them" political argument, which more conveniently comports with your own starkly two-dimensional and almost cartoonish worldview.

    If the matter were really as simple as "Arab vs. Israeli" as you are clearly insisting that it is, then how would you explain why the 1979 Camp David Accords are exclusive to Egypt and Israel? After all, given the inherent logic of your argument that any differences between Israel's various enemies are "irrelevant," such a peace treaty should then be all-encompassing for the entire Arab world. Right?

    Your argument fails due to your faulty assumption that the Arab and Islamic worlds are somehow monolithic in their approaches, initiatives and responses to Israel and the West. These worlds are incredibly diverse in their respective histories and cultures, and will continue to defy your efforts at simple reduction and classification. That's why the late Egyptian President Gamel Abdel Nasser's repeated attempts to invoke the concept of pan-Arabism during the 1950s and '60s fell mostly upon deaf ears in Arab nations throughout the Middle East.

    And until you and the rest of the U.S. right-wing finally disabuse yourselves of your collective tendency to default to that ridiculous fallacy, you will continue to be part of the overall problem in the Middle East, because you're merely content to pour gasoline on burning embers.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    After all that (none / 0) (#204)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Jan 01, 2017 at 10:06:12 PM EST
    The UN is still anti Semitic. Just look at the resolutions.

    Parent
    Donald, you seem not to realize several things (none / 0) (#42)
    by Green26 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 10:38:12 AM EST
    1. Not supporting Trump for president doesn't equal support for Obama.

    2. Trump has been elected president and will be the president in about 4 weeks. You continue to seem not to realize that Trump has been elected president, and the US and people like you are going to have to learn to deal with it.


    Parent
    New meme--liberals deny reality (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    Green, you really have harped recently on the idea of liberals denying reality.  It sounds like a snide approach that a conservative blog might take to try and turn on liberals what they have been saying about conservatives, especially about climate change.

    Trust, me, Mr. Green, I doubt many here are in denial.  I think most here would say they are too painfully aware Cheeto Jesus will take power.

    Parent

    Nope, MKS (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Green26 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 01:47:20 PM EST
    Have never said anything about liberals denying reality. Not once. Indicated that a poster or two is not facing up to reality.

    And just to head off all of your other tactics and BS. Have never said anything positive about Trump. Voted for Hillary. Am not a conservative or Repub. Am an independent. Don't know or spew Repub or Fox talking points. Don't support or discuss Putin, other than thinking he's a serious threat. Don't look at any political blog or other similar site, other than TL. Have been on TL since the Duke lacrosse rape case first came to light. Probably longer than you have been on TL.

    Why are you unable to look at what posters actually say, and address that? You, GA6 and Donald to a lesser extent, need to create straw men to attack, claim posters have said things they haven't said, say posters are trolls, and make snippy comments. Again, to me, that's a sign of not having anything substantive to say.

    Parent

    You consistenlty take (none / 0) (#51)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 01:51:28 PM EST
    the conservative side of the argument, as I have pointed out before.

    You are now repeating yourself about people not accepting reality here--sounds like a stock phrase.

    And, now, we need to compare who has been here longer?   Okay.  That is real substantive.

    I will submit you are just as trollish as Jim but less honestly so.  

    Parent

    Nope, MKS (none / 0) (#52)
    by Green26 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 02:27:15 PM EST
    Opposing Trump. Voting for Hillary. Seeing Russia/Putin as a big threat. Supporting the Constitution including things like criminal rights. Being pro choice. Does not equal being consistently conservative. You seem to be unable to deal with people who are independent or don't agree with you. And, even tho called on it, you continue to use your tactic of claiming other posters said things they have never said. As I said previously, a sign of lack of substance. So, I have been on TL longer than you. Thought so.

    Parent
    not exactly (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 04:59:53 PM EST
    You say you are for those positions and that you voted for Hillary, etc., but the points you actually argue here are from the conservative side.  

    Very disingenuous.

    Parent

    Nope, not disengenous at all. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Green26 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 06:59:25 PM EST
    I tend to discuss the issues that interest me and I know something about. Business, some aspects of foreign policy and defense (especially in the Middle East), Clinton emails and the federal investigative process, criminal procedure and defense on occasion, Native American topics on occasion, etc. I don't discuss sports on this board, but I do on a couple others. Want to take me on in college sports or rugby, MKS?

    Parent
    Funny how all your arguments (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 10:05:02 PM EST
    just by accident are critical of Obama or the Democrats.   You by coincidence always end up on the conservative or GOP side.  Remarkable how a Hillary voter always ends up arguing the other side....

    Sure thing.

    Parent

    in general (2.00 / 1) (#53)
    by linea on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 03:17:06 PM EST
    non-conforming opinions on this site are assumed to be conservative.

    Parent
    In general, ... (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 05:28:49 PM EST
    ... conservative opinions on this site are assumed to be conservative.

    Parent
    the bulk here (none / 0) (#63)
    by linea on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 06:29:42 PM EST
    seem at best centrists to me.

    in upside-down TL world, anti-EU (uk sovereignty) and anti-nato (puppet of america foreign policy) are conservative positions? you agree with merkel and the Christian Democratic Union and you are a liberal-progressive? i suppose the general pro-gun and decidedly pro-military stances of the bulk of posters here are liberal-progressive positions too?

    among a host of other issues. just my perspective.

    p.s. i wonder if we took a poll, how many TL liberals would find fault with the recent UNSC vote?

    Parent

    Very interesting comment, linea (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Peter G on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:02:54 PM EST
    contrasting U.S. and European perspectives on liberalism and progressive politics. Thank you for highlighting those intriguing points.

    Parent
    The world is not black and white, linea. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:26:54 PM EST
    And neither are the positions most of us hold on respective issues. It's best not to judge people based upon caricature and / or an assumption of political stereotypes, whereby conservatives are viewed as strong on business, public safety and national security, while liberals are seen as superior in matters of public health, human services, education and environment. I've found generally that with a few exceptions, people will often confound our efforts to place them in such pre-packaged conservative or liberal silos.

    President Franklin Roosevelt is considered by most historians to be a liberal lion and the architect of the modern liberal state, which lifted this country from the depths of the Great Depression. Yet with the coming of the Second World War, he also showed himself to be arguably the best commander-in-chief (alongside Abraham Lincoln) that this nation has ever produced, by virtue of his resolute and decisive leadership during that terrible conflict.

    Conversely, California Gov. Earl Warren was generally seen as very much a conservative GOP stalwart. But upon his elevation to Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, be evolved to become the literal personification and archetype of the progressive jurist and thus, a conservative bogeyman.

    I'm a liberal who also happens to be pro-military. But I'm also very conscious of our history and our mistakes therein, and would prefer in all matters of diplomacy and conflict that we resort to the use of military force only as a very last resort.

    I would think that my obvious reticence to use force before all other options have been exhausted renders me rather conservative in that regard. But then, self-styled conservatives themselves seem to have no problem liberally threatening others with the use of force for perceived provocations, whether or not those perceptions are valid and justified. So, go figure.

    Anyway, it's always best to avoid the use of labels when seeking to understand where someone else is coming from. When seeking solutions to matters of joint concern, one should first seek out areas of common ground, build out from there, and allow that people can sometimes surprise you with their ability to do nuance.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Just your perspective - yep (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 09:53:58 PM EST
    No doubt that Americans - in general - are not as liberal as their European counterparts.  Of course, that is not what you originally claimed:

    in general non-conforming opinions on this site are assumed to be conservative.

    Particularly since the person to whom you were responding has regularly voiced positions that are, in fact, conservative - and yes, anti-EU/pro-Brexit and anti-NATO positions are conservative positions.

    No idea what the results of your imaginary poll would be, but I was all for the UNSC vote.

    Parent

    I have no idea what you are talking about (none / 0) (#205)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 01, 2017 at 10:40:58 PM EST
    the only person who speaks for TalkLeft is me, everyone else has their own opinion, which may or may not be the same. I have no views on the European issues you refer to, as I do not follow them.

    Parent
    Not all the time (none / 0) (#68)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:14:28 PM EST
    Many supporters of The Bern have taken their leave due to  their disagreements , I presume.

    Parent
    That has absolutely nothing to do with ... (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 04:32:35 PM EST
    Green26: "Trump has been elected president and will be the president in about 4 weeks. You continue to seem not to realize that Trump has been elected president, and the US and people like you are going to have to learn to deal with it."

    ... the issue at hand, which is the UN resolution censuring Israel for its ongoing Jewish resettlement policy in its occupied territories. More to the point, is the purpose of your presence here to engage in a policy discussion, or to bait Democrats and liberals by taking political potshots at them?

    Personally, I believe it's the latter because from my perspective, you don't appear to know very much at all about the fine art of public policy development. Most certainly, you fail to grasp how handing Israel a blank check is now completely antithetical to our own national interests, regardless of whoever happens to be president.

    You act as though you believe both the United States and Israel to be omnipotent and omnipresent forces in the Middle East which are wholly incapable of error by moral design, and therefore entitled to act as they wish with little or no due regard for the other inhabitants of the region. That's less a wise and practical policy directive, than it is a myopic and foolhardy pursuit of raw power that reeks of unbridled contempt and arrogance.

    It's that very sort of imperialistic hubris which throughout history has led many a great nation to incur some very serious but otherwise avoidable grief, including our own most recently in Vietnam and Iraq. Moreover, Israel is not the U.S.'s equal; it is very much a junior partner which is very much dependent upon our support for its survival. I think both Republicans and Democrats all too often seem to forget that particular dynamic in American-Israeli relations and diplomacy. We allow Israel to dictate U.S. policy at our own risk and peril.

    If Israel is to survive over the long haul as a nation, it needs to come to terms of understanding with its neighbors, starting with the Palestinians. Farsighted Israeli leaders such as Golda Meir, Menachem Begin, Yitzak Rabin and Ehud Barak all grasped that very basic concept, which is that the Jewish settlement of Arab territories seized in the 1967 Six-Day War is counterproductive to Israel's pursuit of a longstanding and stable peace in the region.

    Unfortunately, right-wing Israelis and their white-wing American friends have long had other ideas, seeing Israel's continued existence and expansion as some sort of fulfillment of a Biblical prophecy, whose meaning is otherwise lost to the rest of us due to our own Godless secularism.

    Their policies have had the opposite effect, rousing the Palestinians to Intifada and gaining the attention and enmity of larger Mideast neighbors such as Iran. And the primary reason why they continue to pursue these policies is because of their continued confidence in our own longstanding sympathy for the Jewish state, which dates back to the Israeli War of Independence in 1948-49.

    This has been foolish on our country's part, particularly as Israel has transformed itself with our substantial financial and military aid over the decades, from an embattled but feisty underdog to the region's proverbial 900-lb. gorilla - one which now possesses nuclear capabilities.

    Our own policy toward Israel has failed to adapt itself over those same decades to that new regional dynamic and changed reality. Rather than providing that nation with sufficient means to defend itself from aggression, we've instead been increasingly enabling its own questionable and bad behavior as it threatens its neighbors militarily.

    We should be telling Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu where to get off, not vice versa. It's essential that the United States reassert its own role as the senior and dominant partner in the U.S.-Israel alliance, and use our leverage to compel right-wing Israelis to neither take our own country's continued good will for granted, nor treat that good will as a blank check to be cashed at their own whim, regardless whatever shortsighted purchase they wish to make.

    Aloha.


    Parent

    Donald, you are even more long winded than usual (3.67 / 3) (#66)
    by Green26 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:09:32 PM EST
    I take my lead on Israel from my Jewish friends, all of whom are Dems. None of them show any excitement for Palestine. Obama went almost 8 years continuing to veto anti-Israel resolutions in the UN security council. But he reversed course, in a vindictive way, on his way out the door (described by some of the press as a parting shot), and has now impeded the peace process. Of course, the US and Israel are not all powerful in the Middle East, but they are in fact the two most powerful in terms of the military and weapons. Unless Iran gets nuclear weapons, and even if they do, Iran ought to think long and hard about provoking Israel. In my view, you don't know what you're talking about regarding Israel.

    Parent
    I loved that Obama (5.00 / 7) (#35)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 08:54:55 AM EST
    let the resolution pass.   Finally some balance.

    Netanyahu's approach to settlements is wrong.  The State of Israel owes its existence to the UN.  It should follow the U.N. resolutions--especially on occupation of territory.  It takes the West Bank by conquest.  That is flat wrong.

    Israel was created as a religious state--something contrary to U.S. principles of state neutrality to religion.  The  world made an exception for Israel, and the U.S. has strongly supported Israel. At some point, Israel needs to acknowledge the boundaries of a Palestinian state and not make a two state solution impossible--which is what it is doing via the settlements.

    And for you to know what approach Gen. Cheeto will take vis-à-vis the UN is pure guess work and projection by you.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 03:36:46 PM EST
    Israel was created as a religious state--something contrary to U.S. principles of state neutrality to religion.

    Then you must oppose every Islamic Theocracy.

    Do you?

    Didn't think so. :-)

    Parent

    I do (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 05:32:51 PM EST
    Funny how you consistently ask and answer your own questions,  and consistently get them wrong.

    Parent
    i do (none / 0) (#55)
    by linea on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 03:59:12 PM EST
    re: Then you must oppose every Islamic Theocracy.

    i agree the israel is a religious state and i oppose the very concept of religious states including every islamic theocracy.

    Parent

    Yes. (none / 0) (#62)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 05:49:25 PM EST
    et al (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:28:53 PM EST
    Then you all must understand that Palestine is a puppet of Iran.

    And that they will never agree to any kind of peace.

    So why do you support them?

    Parent

    I am against the killing (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 09:56:36 PM EST
    Palestinian children in hospitals.

    Parent
    Are you also against (none / 0) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 08:22:09 AM EST
    suicide attacks in Israel, the launching of rockets  into Israel that can fall randomly and the use of Palestinian schools, hospitals and the use of civilian locations for military purposes?

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 10:23:20 AM EST
    Yep - 100% (none / 0) (#86)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 08:39:52 AM EST
    You keep asking "questions" for which the answer is obvious to everyone but you.  Searching for imaginary hypocrisy but failing ...

    ... hard.

    Parent

    I think we support (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 07:45:06 PM EST
    the decent people of good will in Palestine and the decent people of good will in Israel.

    No one here is interested in supporting abstract "puppets" summoned up to serve the propaganda purposes of the third-rate anonymous online propagandists and faux "christians" you revere.


    Parent

    Obama's former envoy didn't like Obama's move (none / 0) (#107)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 07:21:08 PM EST
    "President Barack Obama's former special envoy to the Middle East said Tuesday that Obama would have been wise to veto last week's United Nations Security Council resolution condemning Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian land.

    "I do think, if I might make a few other points on this issue, that President Obama would have been wise to veto this resolution," George Mitchell said in an interview on MSNBC. "Not because of the policy implications but because of the timing and the circumstance that it leads to with respect to trying to get the parties together."

    Mitchell argued that because there is an incoming administration, which will ultimately decide its own Middle East foreign policy, Obama should have postponed the vote if possible and, if not, vetoed it."

    Article.

    Parent

    Israel Gains Nothing by Netanyahu's Tantrum (none / 0) (#20)
    by RickyJim on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 07:15:52 PM EST
    He was just doing his usual demagogic play to his base, Trump style.  Is he going to cut off "aid" to Britain, France, China and Russia for actually voting for the resolution?

    Parent
    maybe israel (none / 0) (#49)
    by linea on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 01:09:24 PM EST
    will launch a citrus fruit embargo against japan? lol

    Parent
    Interesting WaPost Opinion Page Piece (none / 0) (#14)
    by Green26 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 05:00:11 PM EST
    Interesting piece. I didn't know much of this.

    "Five myths about the Nativity"

    Jesus was born on Dec. 25.

    Jesus was born in a stable.

    `Manger' is another word for `stable.'

    "Away in a Manger" was written by Martin Luther.

    Three wise men attended Jesus' birth.

    Opinion.

    Coincidence (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 06:42:40 PM EST
    Our Preacher today preached on the same topic. We don't know His actual birthday, were He was born or where the Magi came from, how many or when they arrived. They could have started years earlier and arrived at His birth.

    But we do know that He was born, did live, died for our sins, was resurrected and ascended into Heaven.

    And left words that, if followed, would make the world a better place.

    Parent

    Your Preacher Knows What? (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by RickyJim on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 07:08:01 PM EST
    He admits he doesn't know the first paragraph but claims to know the second? My favorite analysis of "died for our sins" is in Yann Martel's "Live of Pi".
    And what a story. The first thing that drew me in was disbelief. What? Humanity sins but it's
    God's Son who pays the price? I tried to imagine Father saying to me, "Piscine, a lion slipped into
    the llama pen today and killed two llamas. Yesterday another one killed a black buck. Last week
    two of them ate the camel. The week before it was painted storks and grey herons. And who's to
    say for sure who snacked on our golden agouti? The situation has become intolerable. Something
    must be done. I have decided that the only way the lions can atone for their sins is if I feed you to
    them."
    "Yes, Father, that would be the right and logical thing to do. Give me a moment to wash up."
    "Hallelujah, my son."
    "Hallelujah, Father."

    And if you know the book, Piscine, despite his initial skepticism, became a Catholic as well as a Hindu and Muslim simultaneously.  

    Parent
    My Preacher didn't admit anything (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 07:22:54 PM EST
    but I admit I haven't the vaguest of what you are trying to say and am sorry for bringing the subject up.

    Parent
    As the Marquis de Sade character (none / 0) (#156)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 05:43:08 PM EST
    in Quills said, "a God who hangs up his own son like a side of beef. What would he do to me?"

    Parent
    This "we" (none / 0) (#78)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 10:15:42 PM EST
    Believes no such thing. I don't have imaginary friends.

    Parent
    It has been well known (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 08:57:28 AM EST
    that the December 25 holiday of Christmas is a pagan holiday.   It is the Winter Solstice.  The lights are to bring back the light (the sun.)

    Not earth shattering information.

    Parent

    There a lot of things about Jesus ... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 06:45:22 PM EST
    ... that tend to surprise Christians. And it only follows that the core essence of his teachings and philosophy is often rejected by the very people who wear their Christian religion so publicly on their sleeves. Jesus of Nazareth was about love, compassion, empathy and forgiveness, though you'd be hard-pressed to see that out nowadays.

    Parent
    That's (none / 0) (#25)
    by FlJoe on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 08:06:01 PM EST
    the old school Jesus. With the new Prosperity Jesus the rich men will have no problem entering the Kingdom of God......they will build it.....with Chinese steel.....and Russian money.

    Parent
    Yes. Jesus has been re-invented ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 26, 2016 at 04:55:13 AM EST
    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
    - Susan B. Anthony, suffragist and humanitarian (1820-1906)

    ... by right-wing Evangelicals as a supply-side Republican huckster who would have us love and indulge ourselves, as we would demand of others to love and indulge us.

    "It is easier for a rich man to enter heaven seated comfortably on the back of a camel, than it is for a poor man to pass through the eye of a needle. If you are prosperous on earth, that means that God is rewarding your rugged individualism. If you are poor, it is a sign that God frowns upon your reliance on handouts."
    - Al Franken, "The Gospel of Supply-Side Jesus." From Lies And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right. (2003, Penguin Group, Inc.)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    RIP, George Michael (1963-2016). (none / 0) (#18)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 06:51:51 PM EST
    The pop singer, whose career outlasted those of so many of his '80s contemporaries, died this weekend at home at age 53. No other details have been provided at present.

    Heh - sorry (none / 0) (#83)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 07:56:38 AM EST
    Couldn't read anything after the first sentence - laughing too hard.

    Donald, thanks for the nice and informative (none / 0) (#88)
    by Green26 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 11:55:15 AM EST
    response. Perhaps we can have a good discussion. I will have to consult my experts, do some more reading, and try to gauge the more current view from Israel and the US. Literally, leaving for a holiday ski vacation with the family now. May end up missing this thread, but will try to catch up with you at some point, perhaps in some open thread. This is more like it. Happy holidays. My family spent Thanksgiving in Maui. I actually thought of you. True. I first went to Maui in 1971. Love the place.

    Donald, still haven't done my research, but ... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Green26 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 10:37:44 PM EST
    "Still, Mr. Kerry's speech is important because the administration's decision to let the resolution pass has created more political repercussions -- including from Democrats -- than the White House anticipated. The incoming Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer of New York, condemned the decision. George Mitchell, a former Maine senator and Middle East negotiator, said on Tuesday on MSNBC that Mr. Obama should have vetoed the resolution because "this moves Israel further away" from an eventual accord. He said he feared it would have the same effect on the Palestinians."

    Looks like Schumer and Mitchell agree with me. NY Times article tonight.

    Parent

    I'll agree with Obama (none / 0) (#93)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 11:33:24 AM EST
    Israel was much more sympathetic as the underdog.  Now, under Netanyhu, it has often lost touch with its soul.  

    Netanyahu's insistence on more settlements is wrong.  Finally, Israel gets called on it.

    Obama is not "getting even."  He is just more free now, and can do what he wants and believes is right.


    Parent

    Obama is probably just sore because (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 12:16:26 PM EST
    Netanyahu consistently went around Obama, just like he has been doing lately with Trump. Israel will fare better with Trump. It was a parting shot. It not only doesn't help the peace process, it looks like most think it will hinder the peace process. Absolutely unnecessary, in my view. I don't know if Trump and his people have the ability to figure out a workable peace solution, but at least Trump will be able to get Netanyahu's attention if he wants it. The two state solution doesn't seem to have an obvious structure to me, but I have never studied the alternatives. Very difficult situation.

    Parent
    You have to make a real strenuous (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 12:57:41 PM EST
    effort to be so blind as to think Obama's actions "hinder the peace process" more than expanding the settlements does.

    Can you possibly be serious?

    It's really hard to believe.

    Parent

    Jondee, try sticking to the topic and not creating (1.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 07:01:33 PM EST
    a straw man. The topic is the US "support" for the recent UN resolution. That was the only discussion. Should the UN have vetoed it or abstained (and let it pass).

    No one, or certainly not I, said anything about expanding settlements. No one, and certainly not I, connected the two or compared them.

    You too are part of the little cabal that can't counter what certain other posters say without creating a straw man.

    If you support what the US did, why can't you just say that and explain why you believe it was a good decision.

    Parent

    This is an open thread (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 08:56:36 PM EST
    Who the eff are you to try and restrict comments to some artificial constraints?

    Moreover, settlements in the West Bank was the subject of the UN Resolution.  

    Parent

    jondee I call it (none / 0) (#96)
    by fishcamp on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 02:22:24 PM EST
    shallow thoughts from a shallow thinker...

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 02:52:17 PM EST
    and this idea that Obama would base his policy decisions in a volatile part of the world like the ME based on nothing more than petty vindictiveness is a shallow analysis worthy of the bloviating, vindictive p*ssy-grabber himself.

    A classic case of projection, if there ever was one.

    Parent

    Look at the media (none / 0) (#106)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 07:16:23 PM EST
    Multiple commentators have said that Obama was taking a parting shot. How can irking one of the key parties to the peace process be thought be anyone to be beneficial to the peace process?

    Parent
    I do not care what unnamed (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by MKS on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 08:54:48 PM EST
    commentators say.  This is more than once you based your argument on what commentators have said.

    You love the classic "argument from authority."  Generally, a weak argument.

     

    Parent

    Unamed sources like Geoge Mitchell (1.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 10:29:47 PM EST
    former Obama special envoy on Middle East peace talks. Chuck Schumer. Multiple other US Senators.

    You need to start paying more attention, and doing some reading and internet looking.

    Times are passing you by.

    Parent

    What condescedning tripe (none / 0) (#135)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:41:56 AM EST
    You sure think you are something.  But if you were, you would need not borrow so much from others.

    Parent
    "A parting shot" (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 07:31:53 PM EST
    who said that, besides a few reliably partisan and superficial Krauthammer clones?

    Parent
    Obama just signed (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 07:43:53 PM EST
    a $38 billion ten-year aid package for Israel.

    Another parting shot; another pound of flesh extracted that the long-suffering Bibi & Co will somehow have to endure..

    Parent

    Almost everyone (none / 0) (#115)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:14:41 PM EST
    Including that reliable alt right paper , The Washington Post editorial page.

    http://tinyurl.com/hnhvara

    Parent

    The Washington Post editorial board (none / 0) (#117)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:37:35 PM EST
    is a little different than almost everyone.

    Though, there are a lot people in this country who seem to strive to be open minded and even handed toward most issues until the subject of Israel comes up, when they proceed to become slightly unhinged and all the open-mindedness and even-handed ness goes right out the window.

    Wittness the efforts exerted by some to block Tony Kushner from receiving an honorary degree from CUNY, and Alan Dershowitz's personal jihad against Prof Norman Finkelstein.

    Parent

    Quotes from NY Times (none / 0) (#121)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 10:27:43 PM EST
    "Reaction was immediate and harsh, not only from Mr. Netanyahu, but also from Senators John McCain, Republican of Arizona, and Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York."

    "Trump posted two Twitter messages rejecting the speech before it was delivered. "We cannot continue to let Israel be treated with such total disdain and disrespect," he wrote on Wednesday morning. After assailing the nuclear deal in Iran and last week's vote at the Security Council, he said, "Stay strong Israel, January 20th is fast approaching!"

    ""The entire Middle East is going up in flames, entire countries are toppling, terrorism is raging and for an entire hour the secretary of state attacks the only democracy in the Middle East," Mr. Netanyahu said. "Maybe Kerry did not notice that Israel is the only place in the Middle East where Christmas can be celebrated in peace and security. Sadly, none of this interests the secretary of state."

    "Mr. McCain called it a "pointless tirade," while Mr. Schumer, the incoming Senate Democratic leader, said he feared that Mr. Kerry had "emboldened extremists on both sides."

    Obama didn't even have the __ to give the speech himself.

    NY Times Article.

    Parent

    McCain like all Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 11:43:02 PM EST
    lives in mortal fear of incurring the wrath of the Holy Land-obsessed conservative religious wing of the party, and Schumer's sad history, ever since he's been in office, is that he'd give up his first born child and his president before he'd ever publicly take Netanyahu to task about anything.


    Parent
    Obama's action (none / 0) (#100)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 05:33:12 PM EST
    Will incite actions against the UN, which may likely be supported by Democrats in Congress.

    Unnecessary and spiteful act.

    And when they do release the evidence that the US was encouraging other countries to re introduce the resolution after Egypt withdrew it, that will be Obama's legacy

    Parent

    Incite actions against the U.N (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 06:36:03 PM EST
    such as what?

    And by whom?

    Parent

    Defunding (none / 0) (#113)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:08:16 PM EST
    US Senators Lindsey Graham (SC) and Ted Cruz (TX), both of whom were candidates this year for the Republican nomination for President, have come out loud and clear in their anger at Friday's UN Security Council Vote which condemned Israeli settlements. The two are calling for America to end financial support for the United Nations unless the vote is repealed.

     

    Parent

    Trevor, why do you think this cabal of TL posters (none / 0) (#123)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 10:42:17 PM EST
    are unable to condemn Palestine for this?

    "Mr. Kerry did make note of the Palestinian violence, the "extremist agenda" of Hamas, and the Palestinian unwillingness to recognize Israel."

    Palestinian violence? Palestinian extremist agenda? Palestinian unwillingness to RECOGNIZE Israel?

    This TL cabal wants to condemn Israel? I don't get it. And why won't they at least engage in discussion. I just want to discuss and learn, but they seem to need to attack.

    Times will be a changin with US policy, it looks like. Don't know which policy or policies are right or will work, but don't understand why an outgoing administration would take action like this.

    Different topic. I wonder if the Trumpee's are going to trash Obama and his policies as they
    take over.

    Quotes from previously quoted NY Times article.

    Parent

    It's the team concept (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 05:26:28 AM EST
    As no actual verifiable reasons are presented,

    It is a support the liberal team mantra, no matter what.
    Pure reflexive action.

    There were opportunities, 1992, 1999, 2002.
    http://tinyurl.com/h9sv3js

    And then the settlers in the WestBank and East Jerusalem were in the tens of thousands, now they number 650k.
    Hamas has never wanted peace. Israel has.
    It is time to recognize it. If the agreements were  made back then, Palestinians would have had peace , and land. And Hamas would have lost their rally cry, Kill the Jew, at least for the Palestinians.  
    Actually, another poster mentioned another solution, Gaza back to Egypt, and other lands back to Jordan.
    The only problem is that those countries do not want the Palestinians either.
    Hamas will never negotiate a peaceful conclusion to this mess

    Parent

    exactly (none / 0) (#99)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 05:30:42 PM EST
    If the Palestinians , and Hamas accepted any of the prior peace agreements going back 30 years, there are only a small amount of settlements.

    Hamas doesn't want a peace accord, they want Israel as the Palestinian boogeyman to incite them on demand.

    You now have 650k Jews in the West Bank and E Jerusalem, where are they going.  And more settlements to be built.

    If Hamas really wanted peace and a state, they would have done so years ago

    Parent

    You put all the responsibility (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 07:02:50 PM EST
    on the Palestinians and none whatsoever on the Israeli right and the violent, messianic settlers they throw bones to in order to shore up their coalition of power.

    That's a very black and white, utterly unnuanced, and intellectually untenable picture you're painting, Trevor.

    You eyes-glazed-over Neocon True Believers have done enough harm already in stimulating a wave of radicalization in the ME, including the empowerment of Hamas, that happened in the wake of your regime change jack off fantasies in the early 2000s.

    Save it for John Bolton and Pamela Geller.


    Parent

    Reality (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 09:11:36 PM EST
    Deal with it.

    Hamas doesn't want peace.

    They could have had it 30 years ago, and there would have been 30, 40k settlers.

    Now there are 650k, you think they are leaving?

    So the prior rejections of peace helped whom?

    There is 600k more people now there. It is obvious to anyone, the longer the process draws itself out, the more people will be settling in the Wesyt Bank.

    Hamas doesn't care, it serves their purpose.

    If there were peace, there would be no need for Hamas.

    Parent

    To paraphrase Voltaire (none / 0) (#120)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 10:05:03 PM EST
    if Hamas didn't exist, the Israeli right would be forced to invent them.

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#139)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:55:08 AM EST
    Or how about the corollary: I fight, therefore I am  

    Parent
    You reality means (none / 0) (#143)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 10:19:48 AM EST
    apartheid in the end.

    Are you willing to deal with that?

    Parent

    Jondee, vioient and messianic settlers? (none / 0) (#124)
    by Green26 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 at 10:45:18 PM EST
    All 650,000 of them? 2? Half dozen?

    Why can't Palestinian leaders accept the existence of Israel? Would that not be an important starting point?

    Can you explain where your views come from? I truly don't understand. Seems odd to me, what you are saying.

    Parent

    What dishonesty (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:53:21 AM EST
    You do not understand?  Bullsheet.   You are just taking a snide swipe at a perfectly clear position.

    You are clearly anti-Obama, and always argue against the Democratic position.  Your smarmy, self congratulatory comments add nothing to the conversation.

    You are a troll.

    Parent

    MKS, and you are dishonest. (1.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 12:33:17 PM EST
    And when you have nothing to counter with, you call someone a troll. Someone who has been on TL longer than you have.

    Parent
    Wow, talk about a (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 06:09:42 PM EST
    pis*ing contest.  What difference does it make?

    I have been here for years, but if you need to have the biggest one, well, what I guess insecurity does run deep.

    Length of time here does not mean you are not now a troll.

    Parent

    Green's been an unswerving bearer of tidings (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 07:21:42 PM EST
    from planet neocon from the moment he started posting here.

    No matter how many times he says Who me?! I'll have you know I'm a Hillary supporter!

    He's like the other guy who has to reminding everyone of what a social liberal he is.

    Parent

    These neocons (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:04:47 PM EST
    who want to hide behind some online persona are tedious and a waste of time.

    I'd rather discuss, debate, argue with Bernie supporters on this Left leaning site.  Something informative and productive can actually come of  that.

    But the neocons here?  I feel like the intelligence goes down and the ick factor goes way up.  Blog cloggers all.

    Parent

    Green, there you go again (none / 0) (#149)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 12:59:45 PM EST
    with that shallow thinking.  What possible difference does it make who has been on TL the longest?  Once again many of your posts have truth and meaning, but you seem to have trouble with senseless words mixed in.  Just say what you mean and leave the bs out of your comments.  Please.

    Parent
    Fishcamp, either follow what's going on or (none / 0) (#157)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 05:50:03 PM EST
    stay out of the discussion. You are missing the point on this topic. You obviously haven't read the posts. I have posted here for a long time, but it seems that some of the latecomers want to call the old timers trolls. They are trolling me, not vice versa. Some of them are also name callers. Jeralyn has had to admonish one or more of them in the past.

    Parent
    Green, I remember when (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 08:11:41 PM EST
    Jeralyn started this blog, and have known her for more than thirty years.  But once again, so what...

    Parent
    I am not a newcomer (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:06:02 PM EST
    Obviously all your info (none / 0) (#136)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 09:48:30 AM EST
    is second and third hand in most derivative, pedestrian sense, yet you continue to charge ahead full bore..

    Have you done any deep reading at all on who exactly is populating those settelments?

    It doesn't sound like it

    Parent

    I can read what George Mitchell, Schumer, (none / 0) (#159)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 06:02:45 PM EST
    US Jewish organizations, Netanyahu and Trump said, and that is neither second or third hand. What are you talking about?

    Feel free to counter what each of those people or groups said.

    Parent

    I'm talking about looking into (none / 0) (#165)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 07:34:14 PM EST
    what actual scholars and historians have to say, as opposed to all these vaunted mouthpieces you rely on so heavily, who almost always include a strong element of spin doctoring, grandstanding, and hyperbole in their public statements.

    Parent
    The scholars will have next to zero (none / 0) (#172)
    by Green26 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 at 12:57:19 AM EST
    influence over this situation. Feel free to give us some summaries, though.

    And feel free to quote the on UN resolution. I bet they were very influential there.

    Parent

    Israel's settlements (none / 0) (#140)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 10:05:30 AM EST
    will cause them more problems in the long run.

    The most immediate danger is defeating any possibility of a two state solution.  Perhaps many see that as a victory for Israel.  Even if so, it would be a pyrrhic one only.

    Israel is overtly and by design a Jewish state.  Yet, the Arabs will greatly outnumber the Jewish people in the Greater Israel created by the settlements.  If Israel in effect annexes the West Bank, it will inherit all the Arab population.  It cannot give the Arabs citizenship, lest Israel case to be a Jewish state.

    So, what will Israel do?  Under Netanyahu's policies, apartheid looks inevitable.  Didn't work in South Africa, and it won't work in Palestine.  The Palestinians have been there for Millennia too.

    Parent

    South Africa Became A Democracy (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by RickyJim on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 10:50:53 AM EST
    for everybody, black and white.  If Israel annexes the West Bank, the  new cry will be one person, one vote, etc.  In South Africa, the predictions were that the blacks would rise up and murder the white citizens.  That didn't happen.  Whites are  about 20% of the total population there.  The standard Zionist line has been, a Jewish minority state in Israel means a second Holocaust.  The pressure to become a democracy for everybody will be tremendous if Israel annexes the West Bank.  What we might see is Israel recruiting Christian Zionists to immigrate to their country so that if Jews become a minority, at least there won't be a Muslim majority.  So see what has been wrought by Israel letting religious fanatics set up settlements all over the West Bank.  

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#145)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 12:09:09 PM EST
    At this rate, the Palestinians will be in a position to take over the whole country in a few short decades.

    And Israel will cease to exist as a Jewish state; it would have been wiped off the map just through demographics.

    Short sided thinking.

    But for many on the Right, Jesus will return shortly anyway,

    Parent

    He'll return (none / 0) (#152)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 02:57:24 PM EST
    and then line all the conservatives up for a group slap, the way Moe from The Three Stooges used to do.

    Parent
    Apparently the demographic panic (none / 0) (#188)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 31, 2016 at 12:08:47 PM EST
    in Israel is already in full swing, with folks, particularly from Eastern Europe, practically being made honorary Jews, and being helped to "settle in" on the West Bank with all alacrity..

    Parent
    MKS, the discussion was on whether (1.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 12:30:53 PM EST
    the US should have abstained in the UN vote, or vetoed it. Yes or No. And did the abstention hurt or help the peace process. The discussion was not on settlement expansions. Don't know why some of you can't stick to the point, and can't address the issue at hand.

    Parent
    Says who? (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 06:11:44 PM EST
    I supported Obama's decision to abstain and think the Resolution was appropriate--Israel is in violation of the Resolutions of the Charter Organization that gave it life.

    Your attempt to narrow the discussion is incoherent....

    Parent

    You Don't See the Connection Green26? (none / 0) (#148)
    by RickyJim on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 12:42:09 PM EST
    The UNSC resolution was all about the settlements.  You can't have a sensible discussion by separating those issues.  Well, except if you think the issue is whether or not the US is obligated to do whatever Netanyahu wants regardless of what the consequences are.

    Parent
    You still don't get the point (none / 0) (#158)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 05:58:55 PM EST
    No, the UN resolution was not all about settlements. It was about a variety of other things. It was not necessary for the US to okay this UN resolution as the Obama administration walked out the door, especially as Trump had weighed in against the US action. There are many other ways to oppose, and continue to oppose, expansion of settlements. Every country including the US was already on record with their views on expanded settlements.

    Other than further irking Israel, Netanyahu, various US Jewish organizations, and Trump, what did the US abstention accomplish?

    Could Kerry not have better used his time, rather than working behind the scenes on this resolution and preparing/delivering his related speech, working to get a better cease fire in Syria and save the lives of innocent people dying and being slaughtered over there?

    Parent

    It is the Whole World for the Resolution (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by RickyJim on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 07:12:25 PM EST
    except for a few American and Israeli politicians.  It is well deserved admonishment to Netanyahu and Co. for allowing religious zealots (You know, the ones who say that God gave all of Judea and Samaria to the Jewish people) to prevent the bringing of some semblance of justice to the Palestinians. One thing it does is put Trump on notice that he will be denounced by the rest of the world (even his beloved Russia) if he encourages more settlements.  Remember that he once said he wanted to be neutral on Israel and Palestine.  He just might revert to that policy in the face of world criticism for abandoning it.  Being against the resolution is being for Israeli extremists, and that isn't neutrality.

    Parent
    Trump doesn't care (none / 0) (#174)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Dec 30, 2016 at 05:26:38 AM EST
    One thing it does is put Trump on notice that he will be denounced by the rest of the world (even his beloved Russia)

    which is why many scratch their heads over why the Obama Administration pushed this resolution to a vote (not only abstaining)

    This will cause the US and UN divide, something the UN , in the long run, will rue.

    Parent

    "Israel cease to be a Jewish state" (none / 0) (#141)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2016 at 10:07:16 AM EST
    Green26: "Looks like Schumer and Mitchell agree with me."

    Speaking for myself only, I disagree with both Schumer and former Sen. George Mitchell, whom I believe to be egregiously shortsighted in their consistently knee-jerk support for various Israeli policy directives, regardless of whatever those stated policies actually are.

    Jewish settlements in the occupied territories are the primary impediment to the achievement of a long-lasting and durable peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. The existence and expansion of those settlements are the essential catalyst for Palestinian Intifada, and provide Arab countries with a legitimate and ready-made excuse to refuse to come to the negotiating table, so long as the Israeli government's settlement policies remain in place.

    Any public statements offered to the contrary by Prime Minister Netanyahu and his American political supporters are, at best, really nothing more than baseless desires rooted in wishful thinking. At worst, such transparently plaintive pleadings about seeking peace are entirely disingenuous in their premise and ought not to be taken at all seriously, absent a true demonstration of good faith and good will by the Israeli prime minister, which as of this date has not been forthcoming.

    At this juncture in time, true American supporters of Israel ought to have the courage to forthrightly address and confront Netanyahu's aggressive and expansionist designs upon Palestinian lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, rather than continue to enable his counterproductive behavior by remaining stubbornly wedded themselves to a romantic but now-outdated and obsolete vision of Israel as perpetual underdog.

    It is imperative that we convince the Israelis, by diplomatic and financial coercion if necessary, that their government's continued pursuit of these Apartheid-worthy policies really do imperil their current standing as a western-style democracy, if not their very national existence. Otherwise, we risk the complete undermining of our own self-perceived role as an honest broker in the region.

    Given that I've now thoroughly explained my own position on Israel's self-sabotaging settlement policies in considerable detail, this post will be the last I'll say on this matter.

    As for yourself, you may refer to my comment No. 57.

    Parent

    "I do know this..." (none / 0) (#89)
    by desertswine on Tue Dec 27, 2016 at 12:18:27 PM EST
    I do know this – and it was really bizarre – I was trapped in a metaphor. Everything I looked at had a meaning. Everything was a warning or a sign.

    Carrie Fisher has died.  She was a very brave individual.

    I have no intention (none / 0) (#206)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jan 01, 2017 at 10:45:56 PM EST
    of spending my evening reading the insults and diatribes in comments here. I see that Jim is blogclogging, and he can't post any more here. I've erased some comments that were a two-way insult fest, and that's it for now.

    This thread is closing, Christmas Eve has past.