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Sunday Night Open Thread

Hillary is now beating Donald Trump in the popular vote count by more than 600,000 votes. Not much solace. But it may be enough for me to call him the UnPresident from now on.

Josh Marshall says the Trump Administration will be incredibly corrupt.

Can Netflix please speed up the release date of Surviving Pablo Escobar -- the series about his head hitman Popeye, John Jairo Velásquez, who was released from prison in 2014 after serving 23 years? I've been following him in the news since before his release and want something to watch so I can stop reading about our UnPresident.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Trump Names Reince Priebus as Chief of Staff | Monday Open Thread >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Apparently Trump (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 13, 2016 at 07:09:29 PM EST
    is still fine with everything he said during the primaries about every ethnic group in the country. I'm not surprised. I actually would be more surprised if he actually apologized for what he said.

    With each passing day my heart is more stricken (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 13, 2016 at 08:01:10 PM EST
    My soul more appalled

    My mind more shocked at the repugnant spectre and vile strench of a Trump presidency. Conway and Omarosa have now put us all on notice that an enemies list has been created.

    Snort...amateurs

    I remember running home from school one day when a girl told me she was going to kill me. My dad laughed and told me real killers never warn you first, makes it more difficult ;)

    Parent

    Both my husband and I slept for the furst (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 13, 2016 at 10:06:53 PM EST
    Time since Tuesday last night. I have brief moments of feeling like I can cope followed by despair.

    I read a few comments on Facebook that "the protesters are being babies". Dear Lord, Bannon is a white nationalist and he's in the White House. I can't survive this if we stop protesting.

    Parent

    I was in downtown LA yesterday when the protestors (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 12:21:43 AM EST
    went by. I just happened to be waiting to cross the street when they came by. What a crowd! I waited a long time to cross but did not mind at all. It made my heart glad to see it.
    I saw quite a few protestors thanking the Police Officers that were lined up along the route. Also, saw some officers smiling and cheering the protestors. Saw a little girl high-fiving the police officers along the way.

    We are not going to sit (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:49:07 AM EST
    idly by here in California.  Hillary won Orange County by 5 points, for Pete's sake.

    Parent
    And I thank-you for that. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:19:39 AM EST
    I loved seeing that the crowd was a mix of all ages, colors, genders and ethnicities. There were signs supporting BLM,  LGBT, Planned Parenthood, Immigrants, Muslims, Asians, Latinos, etc. aside from the "not my president/Fu*k Tr*mp" ones.  Lots of "this pu$$y grabs back" signs :-)!

    One of my favorites was "They tried to bury us, they did not know we were seeds". Apparently, a Mexican proverb. I did not know that.

    Parent

    About that Mexican proverb: (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:51:58 AM EST
    "Quisieron enterrarnos, pero se les olvido que somos semillas."

    Its roots are in a couplet by the Greek Poet, Dinos Christianopoulos.

    Parent

    beautiful! (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 03:07:43 PM EST
    What you said! (none / 0) (#24)
    by FreakyBeaky on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:41:24 AM EST
    Looks like Darrell Issa (none / 0) (#37)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 01:16:18 PM EST
    kept his House seat.  Unfortunately.

    Parent
    By less than 4 thousand votes (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 01:27:58 PM EST
    51-49.   A very vulnerable place to be.

    But they are still not done counting votes.  San Diego has yet to report, last I looked, how many mail in and provisional ballots are left to count.  Statewide that number is 4.3 million right now.

    Parent

    We're in Honolulu this weekend, ... (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 11:03:17 AM EST
    ... and so we joined 2,000 of our friends from UNITE-HERE Local 5 and Hawaii Young Democrats on a march late yesterday afternoon down Kalakaua Ave. through Waikiki to the Trump International Hotel. It was also great to see so many young people turn out.

    I was wondering how tourists would react, since so many of them were out and about themselves at 4:30 p.m., but was very pleasantly surprised to see hundreds of them applauding and cheering us on, even from hotel balconies above us, and also recording the march via cell phone. And a good number of them even spontaneously joined us.

    One young blonde woman from Oregon was applauding and crying before stepping in line. Another middle-aged couple from Virginia who had also joined the march thanked us afterward. "I've been wanting to yell and vent my anger since Tuesday night," the wife said. "It felt good to be with other people who feel as we do." Her husband added that he felt reinvigorated and ready to get involved when they returned home.

    There were about 100 or so HPD officers accompanying the march on bicycles, and helping with traffic management since we were crossing several busy intersections, and we all made sure to thank as many of them as we could for their work tonight. One of them looked at me and thanked us instead, and said that it was a honor to be with us, even though they were on duty.

    And afterward, we were so inspired that we set fire to several police cars, looted a couple of jewelry stores, robbed the patrons at a McDonald's at gunpoint, and terrorized some elderly people just for the hell of it, all the while chanting "Hey, where the white women at?"

    Okay, I admit that the stuff in the last paragraph didn't happen at all, except in the fevered mind of one of the TL regulars. (You know who you are.)

    Still, it was a great afternoon and evening. I hadn't been at a bona fide dissident political protest since -- well, since Vice Pres. Dick Cheney graced up with his presence 12 years ago. It felt great to do so again.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Kalakaua Ave. (none / 0) (#29)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 11:21:13 AM EST
    Right past the statue of Duke Kahanamoku, the father of surfing, I assume.  Right in the heart of the tourist center.

    Looking at Waikiki Cam can brighten your day.

    I can't image the kind of ugly that Trump represents goes over well in Hawaii.

    Mahalo for joining in.

    Parent

    I know how the tourists who joined your march (none / 0) (#36)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 01:08:52 PM EST
    felt. I did my fair share of cheering. I did get choked up a few times when I saw a few Latino children carrying signs asking for their parents not be deported.
    I've been on vacation since the election and I've been struggling to process the results and try to enjoy my vacation at the same time. Watching the march and being able to shout and cheer in support was a welcome release to the frustration, anger, sadness, shock, etc., that I have been feeling. I needed that.

    Parent
    The losing candidate (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 01:24:09 PM EST
    has not claimed that the election was rigged, unless she won.  And, the protestors are not armed, looking for second amendment solutions.  The Republicans are not only poor winners, but sport a vindictive leader and some dangerous followers.

    Parent
    This morning the house is quiet (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 07:46:43 AM EST
    My husband isn't watching cable news anymore he said. He was very susceptible to that false equivalency affect. There were a few times I got upset because he'd get snarled/entangled in parsing email. And now we have a White Supremacist in the White House. Nobody ever talked about that possibilty. He's stricken. He'll never watch cable news again.

    I remain shocked (1.00 / 5) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:03:32 AM EST
    yes shocked that the same people who attacked Trump for saying he would "wait and see" are now either om the street or supporting what, in many cases, are violent riots and property destruction.

    Yes, shocked.

    We had an election. Your side lost.

    Are you ready to throw over our republic?

    I hope not.

    But your actions and words say you are.

    You are daft. (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:16:46 AM EST
    Trump said he "wait and see" with regard to accepting the results of the election. They are not saying he didn't win. They saying it's unacceptable to have a bigoted, xenophobic sociopath in the White House. We don't want to throw over the republic, rather we want to save it. The protesters are patriots.

    You think waving flags and getting erect during the pledge of allegiance makes you a patriot. You are wrong. A true patriot cares about the future of the republic, cares about other people, cares about the ideas and principles that this country was founded on. True patriots care about the entire Constitution, not just the parts that fit our narrative.

    Parent

    Yes, you are saying exactly that. (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:25:05 AM EST
    They are not saying he didn't win. They saying it's unacceptable to have a bigoted, xenophobic sociopath in the White House. We don't want to throw over the republic, rather we want to save it. The protesters are patriots.


    Parent
    That's a very funny post. (none / 0) (#26)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:53:15 AM EST
    I won't quote the part that got me laughing.  lol

    Parent
    First they came for the armed and unstable (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 02:35:54 PM EST
    and people said nothing..then they came for the violent sociopaths and people said nothing..than they came for the Nazis and people said nothing..

    Kudos to Jim for standing up and saying "enough is enough!"

    Parent

    So you're (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:31:03 AM EST
    fine with David Duke in the white house? Well, the majority of Americans are not.

    Parent
    Why am I not surprised? (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:25:58 AM EST
    People protesting against racism, sexism, misogyny, hate, etc., is shocking. The Bundy armed stand-off against the Feds, not so much.

    Parent
    He put a white nationalist in our White House (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 12:31:08 PM EST
    We've seen all we need to see

    Parent
    Tracy, (2.00 / 4) (#47)
    by NYShooter on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 04:08:59 PM EST
    "the Man" has some wacky personal ideas, I agree, but, he's in the White House because he's a brilliant manager and strategist, not because of his personal beliefs (whatever they are.) Hillary had amassed well over a Billion dollars for her campaign, and still lost to a candidate who spent only a fraction of that. Bannon is credited for designing, structuring, and running the much cheaper, yet winning campaign.

    Reince Priebus will handle the political angle for the President while Bannon will handle strategy. What either of them believe personally is their own business, and have nothing to do with their job functions.

    Parent

    No Moral Compass (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 04:36:46 PM EST
    So you are okay with having no moral compass in the White House? with having decisions made according to goal of the moment -- "winning it", no matter the cost?

    This is how we got the McCarthy era, and worse.

    I personally do not care how strategically adept someone is, if the capability is used for malevolent purposes.

    Parent

    Asking you the same question you asked Ga6thdem (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by vml68 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 05:21:48 PM EST
    in #51. How exactly do you know that what Preibus and Bannon believe personally will have no bearing on how they perform their job functions?

    I can think of many words to use to describe Tr*mp's ideas, "wacky" would not be one of them.

    As for Hillary, after the results of this election, I have come to believe that she would not have won if she had spent 10 billion dollars. If so many people were willing to overlook the abomination that is Tr*mp, were willing to vote for a hateful, ignorant, racist, sexist buffoon with a record of screwing over mom and pop business' over, were willing to vote for a person wholly unfit for the Presidency over a person who was almost over qualified for the job, she never had a chance.

    Your so called "brilliant manager and strategist" preached division and hatred. The "wacky idea" called white supremacy won.

    Parent

    brilliant? (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Nov 16, 2016 at 01:59:14 AM EST
    He lucked out -- I don't think even he or his team know why he won. What does he manage? I think he closes the deal and moves on, leaving underlings to do the daily grind while he plays tic tac toe, or something like it.

    Parent
    In addition (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 07:00:25 PM EST
    Hillary had amassed well over a Billion dollars for her campaign, and still lost to a candidate who spent only a fraction of that.

    The Trump campaign had significantly less funding, a sparse ground game, and no high powered surrogates on the campaign trail (President & Michelle Obama, President Clinton, celebrity entertainers)
    Reince Priebus will handle the political angle for the President while Bannon will handle strategy. What either of them believe personally is their own business, and have nothing to do with their job functions.

    Exactly. They had a small cohesive team, but if anyone thinks The Donald doesn't have the final say........
    I have no clue what path this presidency will take, but knowing the mans ego, he will want it to viewed as a success. That , I feel, will guide his actions.

    Parent

    Bullsh*t (3.67 / 3) (#64)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:54:59 PM EST
    Your point is that advisors do not matter.  This is absurd.

    Trump knows less than any major candidate perhaps ever.  He will be exceptionally dependent on advisors.  

    If Obama had hired a communist as his chief strategist, Republicans would have screamed bloody murder.

    Your attempts to normalize a bigoted lunatic is astonishing.  Or perhaps you think it is funny.  A lot of people will get hurt, and you think it is funny.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#67)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 06:03:05 AM EST
    He needs advisers on how to get things done,

    Or experienced people to inform him of the ramifications or unintended consequences of his proposed actions.

    But The Donald will make the ultimate decision.

    As President Obama was responsible for his decisions

    Parent

    That depends on what he considers (none / 0) (#60)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 08:11:02 PM EST
    "success."

    Parent
    If only it were so shooter (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 04:37:02 AM EST
    Dick Cheney actually WAS a successful business man. Let us reflect on how his personal beliefs should not have been a concern when he walked into the White House.

    Once upon a time I believed the same, like a new born babe. It is not true. It isn't like military service. These are now the people who will tell us which laws are important. I wonder how long the military program to deal with the sexual assault crisis lasts? I have learned...that is all is enabled or disabled right out of the White House.

    Now Trump wants his kids to have the highest security clearance? That's ridiculous, particularly coming from the guy who won on "Crooked Hillary the Classified Mishandler".

    Parent

    Interesting that we should trust Trump and his (none / 0) (#68)
    by vicndabx on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 06:25:58 AM EST
    choices.  These guys are there for their management skills according to you.

    We should not believe our eyes and ears, nothing to see here.

    Nothing but those that would divide us hiding in plain sight.

    Parent

    We should (none / 0) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 06:30:55 AM EST
    ignore the facts when it comes to Bannon. I happen to think that says a lot about Trump that he would hire someone like Bannon to work in the white house.

    Parent
    And I wish people would not downrate (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 02:13:46 PM EST
    People that we know aren't trolling us. It's hard listening to left leaning independents ask us to be patient right now. Make your case, but please don't downrate people talking with me from a place that isn't the hate filled rightwing. I want to talk to these people, not alienate them. Time will tell how this goes down. But my soul can never be right with this pussy grabbing, Mexican judging, Kenyan Obama Presidency.

    You watch, all progress handling the rape crisis in the military was just undone. Don't let your daughters join, I'm not kidding. Don't let your sons either for that matter, rapists rape men too.

    Parent

    good luck with that, MT (none / 0) (#105)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Nov 17, 2016 at 01:26:16 AM EST
    Make your case, but please don't downrate people talking with me from a place that isn't the hate filled rightwing.


    Parent
    It is a very hard time for many (none / 0) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 17, 2016 at 09:21:22 AM EST
    But there are people who have conversed here for years that are not rightwing that are handling this situation differently. Some days I wish I could, I am not capable of that, but I'm not alienating my friends who didn't vote Trump.

    I did lose a friend yesterday. I met him when my husband and I dated. He lived in the same apartment building that I did. Our friendship was focused on how much we loved our kids and how involved with our kids we were.

    I could no longer stand the racism and bigotry. I told I could no longer be his friend. That I am not putting myself through that and I will no longer tolerate such bigotry in my life ever again, and our friendship is over.      :(     I know who I need to unfriend

    Parent

    And shooter (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 02:36:36 PM EST
    Turns out Trump is a brittle old man. He's so mentally brittle he can't fathom living someplace other than Old Man Tower now.

    This presidency is going to be phoned in. I predict people in their separate positions wielding a great deal of power. And I predict war inside the White House...at some point it'll be all in caps....WAR

    Parent

    RIP Leon Russell. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Nov 13, 2016 at 08:41:56 PM EST
    Will be listening to Retrospective tomorrow at work.

    Got to see Arrival this weekend (none / 0) (#7)
    by McBain on Sun Nov 13, 2016 at 10:26:22 PM EST
    The reviews were good but the film didn't quite work for me.  I preferred Contact or the original The Day The Earth Stood Still.

    Any other films worth seeing in the theater now or coming out soon?  Any good series on Netflix? I like some of the shows Jeralyn has recommended but I'd prefer a non drug cartel show.  

    "Loving" (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by KD on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:02:25 AM EST
    A great movie to see in these trying times. It's about the couple who brought down racial marriage laws with the help of the ACLU.


    Parent
    In 1975, when I was graduating law school (none / 0) (#62)
    by Peter G on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:44:26 PM EST
    I interviewed for a job with Phil Hirschkop, who had been the Lovings' lawyer at the Supreme Court. He was no older when he won that case than I was when I met him, that is, around 25. Sadly (for me), I did not get the job.

    Parent
    Magnificent Century (none / 0) (#31)
    by jmacWA on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 11:58:09 AM EST
    IF, you don't mind subtitles.  Story of Suleyman the magnificent.  I didn't know much about the Ottoman empire and found it pretty interesting (of course its fictional).

    Parent
    she might of won the popular vote (none / 0) (#11)
    by nyjets on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:11:12 AM EST
    Clinton has won the popular vote, but she still got less that 48 percent of the vote.
    The fact is the majority of this country did not vote for her, and actually the majority did not vote for trump either.
    Even if she had won, the majority of this country would have been unhappy as well.


    maybe (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:32:38 AM EST
    but if she had won both the popular vote and in the EC there would be much less problems in the country right now. However it's a moot point. Trump is going to attempt to instate white nationalism all over the country. This is Nixon part 2.

    Parent
    And, you know this, (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by NYShooter on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 04:39:47 PM EST
    exactly how?

    You know, I've had many comments deleted because Jeralyn felt I was stating opinion as fact.

    Enough anxiety and fear is out there without you fanning the flames with made up crappola.

    A simple, "I think," or, I believe," would be in keeping with Jeralyn's rules, and, you'd still get your opinions out there.

    Thank you.

    Parent

    Look (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 06:26:18 PM EST
    at who he hired as a senior advisor. A guy who ran a website for the alt-right white nationalist movement. That doesn't tell you something?

    Parent
    Actually, (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by jbindc on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 11:32:20 AM EST
    She very likely will end up with 51-52%, a clear majority.

    Parent
    ... to break 50%, given that non-D/R candidates took 5.2% of the vote nationally. If the present trend line continues, she'll likely end up with a margin of about 2 million votes and a little less than a 49% plurality to Trump's 47% share.

    As of 4:15 a.m. EST on Tuesday, Nov. 15, Mrs. Clinton is up by 962,815 votes.

    Parent

    are you sure about that? (none / 0) (#32)
    by nyjets on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    Last time I checked, she was at 47.8 percent.
    She still has a way to go to get to 50 percent.

    Parent
    4.3 million votes (none / 0) (#34)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 12:29:27 PM EST
    left to count in California, not including San Diego, as of this morning.

    Parent
    Update (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by MKS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 04:36:11 PM EST
    Holy crapola.  San Diego reports and they have 600k votes left to count.  Now the total of votes still left outstanding has gone up to 4.5 million.

    Link.

    Parent

    Why does anyone cite the popular (none / 0) (#15)
    by leftwig on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:34:28 AM EST
    vote as if it has any bearing?  About 1/4 of the country voted for HRC and about 1/4 of the country voted for Trump so neither was a popular vote winner.

    Clearly if the popular vote mattered, we would be in the middle of broad challenges across the nation after every election.  One estimate had between 2M-3M illegal votes cast during the election and we have no idea how those votes were cast.  There are several arguments for why the electoral college is the better way to determine the outcome, but can you imagine the court challenges, resources and length of time it would take to sort out all of those votes if were simply a nationwide count?

    Because (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:36:42 AM EST
    it reminds people that Trump did not win the majority of voters in the country. Sorry but you can make up things about illegal votes all you want but all you're doing is making yourself look foolish and a Trump apologist.

    Parent
    Neither did HRC (none / 0) (#43)
    by leftwig on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 03:07:17 PM EST
    Does that mean you advocate having no president?  I'd be fine with that.  Return power to the states and shrink the fed to defense and some regulations.

    Parent
    HRC (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 04:47:31 PM EST
    won the most votes and we don't know what the percentage is going to be. Trump came in second place with voters. No, Trump is going to be in the white house at least part time. He'll sign whatever Paul Ryan sends to him.

    Unfortunately I have an idiot for governor so sending it back to the states only makes the states more corrupt.

    Parent

    "Won the most votes" (none / 0) (#73)
    by leftwig on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 08:58:53 AM EST
    1. The statement was "majority" which is incorrect
    2. If HRC campaigned to win more votes nationally than Trump, then she ran a poor race.
    3. About 47% of citizens eligible to vote didn't vote
    4. We'll have no idea how the popular vote actually went because we have no idea how many of the counted votes were actually legal votes given that more than a dozen states allow people to cast votes without any ID.


    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 09:50:29 AM EST
    the people that did not vote is on them. We never have 100% turnout ever. And stop with the illegal voting conspiracy theories. The only people who have been arrested so far for any fraud are Trump supporters. The illegal voting thing is pure Trump apologia.

    Parent
    One estimate.....and we have no idea (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by vicndabx on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:05:49 AM EST
    So you take this "one estimate" as truth?  (Problem 1)

    Then you expect us to believe with you and buy into some BS narrative about voter fraud and thus act differently because of your "truth".  (Problem 2)

    If the popular vote mattered, we would have had at least 12 years of Democratic presidents, possibly a different economy, possibly a totally different world w/r/t to terrorism and climate change. So no, we don't know if we'd have had "broad challenges" - any more than we always do.  Secondly, if the popular vote is so bad, why do we use it FOR EVERY OTHER ELECTION IN THE US?

    The popular vote matters because it provides truth in the face of talk of a presidential and/or legislative mandate.  There is none.

    Parent

    We have 3 branches of government (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:31:46 AM EST
    that keeps things bumped to the middle because  compromise is always required.

    When compromise is not used, such as in Obamacare, the results get changed down the line.

    Parent

    Jim, to quote Chuck0, that is 'daft' (none / 0) (#27)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 10:55:55 AM EST
    Obamacare is a Mount Everest of compromises.  The largest was the one that allowed untold hordes of health insurance industry employees and parasites to keep their jobs and revenue streams.

    I say Single Payer and F'em all.

    Parent

    Not a single Repub voted for it (1.00 / 2) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 12:27:38 PM EST
    so what it was it wasn't enough.

    And I agree that it was/is welfare for the insurance companies....along with being welfare for many of Obama's base.

    Single payer? Yes. Let's do it.

    And pay for it by a federal sales tax.

    I bet you won't agree with the last statement.

    Parent

    welfare..the Reich's favorite dog whistle (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 03:23:52 PM EST
    as if poor kids being able to go to the doctor was morally comparable to the behavior of rapacious, price-gouging insurance companies.

    Parent
    Poor kids, thank goodness (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 03:58:01 PM EST
    can get Medicaid.

    Totally different than Obamacare.

    Obamacare supposedly protects the working poor.

    Sounds good but we are now finding that the cost is very high....but you don't mind if someone else is paying.

    Parent

    So "the working poor" aren't poor? (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 04:19:41 PM EST
    apparently because "someone else is paying" you don't care how many kids and people are helped or hurt..

    What's a little common decency compared to the dunce from Tall Cotton being able to score some cheap political points against the liberals?

    Parent

    So who's poor now? (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:24:13 AM EST
    Or maybe I should say "poorer?"

    Would that be the person who has fired to allow the company to remain under 25 FTE making less than $50K??? Or under 50 FTE with one or more making more??

    Would it be employee whose hours are cut to less than 30??

    It's a complex subject with no acceptable answers when someone starts to assign benefits within the group. There will always be winners and losers.

    One of the least discussed things about Obamacare is the issue of fairness. Johnny gets a huge subsidy...or welfare check to be truthful... Suzy pays the full fare.

    What has Johnny done to deserve having his healthcare mostly paid for?? What has Suzy done to make her pay for most of Johnny's healthcare?

    It is easy to justify safety nets when unemployment, illness, etc is involved. Not when it is clear that you're taking from one and giving to another for political reasons.

    Everyone recognized that at the start of Obamacare. They just ignored it and the cost of the unfairness was just below the pain level. This year the cost went above the cost level and people voted to punish the Democrats.

    Parent

    It's not (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 01:59:20 PM EST
    going to happen. I don't know why you continue with this fantasy that the GOP is going to enact single payer.

    Parent
    People who chose to NOT vote, ... (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 02:51:26 PM EST
    ... by which I mean those who didn't cast a ballot at all rather than having merely left a particular section of the ballot blank, have essentially opted out of the process and self-marginalized. Therefore, why should they be included in the final tally?

    Further, you need to define "illegal vote" and cite your source for that information. Because personally speaking, the number of "2M-3M" sounds like it's been pulled out of your posterior.

    Because historically, there really has never been any instance in this country of massive "voter fraud," which implies that voters themselves are the perpetrators. That's simply not the case.

    Whenever electoral fraud has occurred (and it's a relatively rare occurrence), it's never been found in the individual casting of one's own votes. Rather, it happens after the polls are closed during the subsequent counting of the ballots, whether it be falsely padding the totals or deliberately undercounting the actual number of ballots cast. In Florida during the 2000 election, for example, it's been estimated that about 174,000 ballots were never processed or counted.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Our Founders were (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by NYShooter on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 05:18:33 PM EST
    a pretty slick bunch of critical thinkers, they didn't put things into the constitution willy-nilly just because they were hungry and lunch was overdue. One of the reasons they came up with the electoral college method of determining elections is because, without it, we wouldn't even have what we now know as the United States of America. The country was still being formed, and, the smaller states were worried about being bullied by the bigger ones if population was to be the only criterion they were going to use to pass laws. So, in order to induce them to join the Union they came up with the electoral college, designed, somewhat, on the same idea as the way they decide on the number of representatives in the House from each state

    We've all heard the adage, "Tyranny of the Majority." While most votes are still, "majority rules," minorities have to be protected. If everything was determined by the majority we might end up with a country where only Catholicism is permitted.

    Think about it, if we accepted the popular vote, let's say in the election just passed, we could have a case where approximately 15 States would have no say in the outcome at all. The smaller states have only 3 electoral votes, while California alone has 55. I know Eric Schmidt, CEO of California's Silicon Valley & Google has a slogan, "Do no evil," but, I think I'll take my chances with the hillbillies of Montana rather than be forced to have a group hug with all those geniuses.

    Not perfect, but, way better than laws by referendum.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 06:31:31 PM EST
    our founders did a lot of things at the time. We did not have direct election of senators. Even voting in primaries is a relatively new event. However we've learned over the years that things can be done better. Just because it worked at the founding of the country doesn't mean it still should be done now.

    The Troubling Reason the Electoral College still exists

    Parent

    Irrespective of why (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 08:31:13 AM EST
    the EC was put in back then...

    The base reason remains. The folks outside of CA, NYC, FL, etc., want a say.

    A popular vote would likely include the non-urban folks  out. Look at the pictorial of voting by party floating around on the 'net.

    You want that because you lost.

    Not because it would improve the country.

    Parent

    The people (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 09:52:13 AM EST
    outside of those areas can vote just the same as people in NYC can. No, you don't want to change the EC because the GOP would never win another presidential election. The GOP apparently prefers minority rule by gerrymandering. And we don't vote by land. We vote by people.

    Parent
    You are sort of right. (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by caseyOR on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 06:44:49 PM EST
    We have the Electoral College because a group of states wanted to be sure their influence would not be diminished. These were not the "small states". We have the EC because the slave states demanded it.

    Like the three-fifths of a person part of the Constitution, the EC was not the result of the intellects and critical thinking skills of those at the Constitutional Convention. Rather it the result of trying to square the abomination that is slavery with the desire to form a republic that claims to respect human rights.

    The EC needs to go the way of the three-fifths designation.

    Slavery -the gift that keeps on giving.

    Parent

    How clever of you (none / 0) (#63)
    by Towanda on Mon Nov 14, 2016 at 09:53:08 PM EST
    and how convenient to ignore that the EC was changed from the plan that the Founders put into our Constitution.

    Could there be a reason that you are ignoring the reason that it was changed in the 19th century?

    Parent

    You're not alone in these musings (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by vicndabx on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 06:58:11 AM EST
    Please explain (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:41:22 AM EST
    I think I was absent that day in school.

    By implication, the current Electoral College changed from the original idea to protect slavery?  I guess I could google it, but too lazy today....

    Parent

    See 12th Amendment (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Towanda on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 11:26:00 AM EST
    not law until 1804, after it was passed in 1803 by Congress -- a Congress with no Founders by then.

    Parent
    Majority rule works fine (none / 0) (#81)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:45:06 AM EST
    in Europe.   The UK does just fine.  No Senators from tiny states to skew the result.  

    Parent
    Really? Majority rule works just fine in Europe? (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 01:40:32 PM EST
    Have you heard that Britain just left the EU?

    Parent
    Gald you oppose majority rule (none / 0) (#89)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 02:07:49 PM EST
    Jimbo, the tail can wag the dog for only so long.

    Hillary now leads in California by 29 points.  Obama's best win was 24 points. Right now, there are still 4.3 million votes left to count in CA.  Her percentage lead is increasing.  It was 28 points yesterday.

    Trump beat Hillary in Texas by only 10 points.  Down from Romney's 16 point win.

    Prop. 187 turned California blue.  But remember Prop. 187 actually passed and the GOP pounded their chest over that.  Just like you and they are doing now.

    On the other hand, the Midwest vote for Trump is coming from a declining population.  Older rural, or non-urban, WWC.  Won't last forever.

    This election is a classic win for reactionaries protesting modernity.  That won't last, either.  

    Parent

    George Will (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 02:58:58 PM EST
    called it a Pyrrhic victory. Already senators are notifying Trump that they are not going to vote to confirm so and so. A couple of defections and a nominee goes down. I do hope though that Trump nominates Giuliani so we can get him in front of the senate to answer some questions on what he was doing with the FBI in NY. He won't pass the senate though once his record is examined. It's only going to take a few defections from the GOP to knock off a bunch of nominees.

    Maryland is just starting to count their absentee ballots. I'm sure there are a lot of other states outstanding with absentees and provisionals. We probably won't get the final count until sometime in December.  

    Parent

    Maryland count just put Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Towanda on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 03:10:55 PM EST
    at more than a million ahead.

    And still counting. . . .

    Parent

    TPM says Trump now favors (none / 0) (#98)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 07:34:34 PM EST
    Ryan's Medicare phase-out. I hope that the filibuster rules will apply to any such effort.

    There are a lot of things to be concerned about.

    I would like to see Giuliani get asked questions under oath....

    Parent

    Giuliani (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 07:40:46 PM EST
    under oath would be awesome for sure. I called my senators about Medicare. They had no opinion. So I don't know if they were afraid to say or what.

    Parent
    Gonna be a lot of fights, GA (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:03:38 PM EST
    Stick around for the main event.

    Parent
    We've never had majority rule. (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:02:07 PM EST
    This is a constitutional republic with democratic institutions.

    I know you don't understand that.

    Prop 187 was supposed to shut off welfare benefits to the undocumented. It has never been enforced so the flood has continued.

    And why you want to turn the US into Mexico I can't figure out.

    Do you understand that Mexico is not a democracy? Has a moneyed elite that specializes in keeping the ordinary in check?

    Oh well, I could never understands Obama's hatred for America either.

    Parent

    If a gov't (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:39:16 AM EST
    consistently opposes the will of the majority, it cannot long endure.

     

    Minority rule (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 10:47:18 AM EST
    is going to destroy the country Jim but apparently you are okay with that. No, we should just get rid of the EC where the people in southern Illinois will have as much as say as the people in Chicago. However, all the while complaining about cities you are willing to take the votes away from rural people too it seems.

    A gerrymandered minority having control of the country is going to come to no good, Jim.

    Seems like (none / 0) (#84)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 12:35:35 PM EST
    Since everyone in the country has the option to vote for only two federal offices, going with a winner-take-all system might be better.  More people might vote (how many people in NY, CA, or TX stayed home because their vote "didn't matter?") Third parties might be able to get attention and traction.   And it wouldn't matter if you lived in a state with few people and lots if land (i.e. Montana) or a state with lots of people and little land  (i.e. Massachusetts).  Also, the election likely couldn't be calked until the next day, so as to account for HI and AK.

    "mites" are on chickens (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 01:37:04 PM EST
    But to use a supposition, more people in the small states might stay home because they know CA and NY will elect the Prez no matter how they vote.

    And the present system doesn't block third parties...look at what Trump did.

    Parent

    I can't even count (none / 0) (#107)
    by CST on Tue Nov 22, 2016 at 11:50:41 AM EST
    The number of times I've said this in the past two weeks - but NY is not the second biggest state by population - Texas is.  The biggest states are CA and TX followed by NY and Florida which are roughly the same size followed by some combination/order of Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, and PA that are all roughly similar sizes.

    So in other words, it would be not that different from the "important" states we have today - only California, NY, and Texas - three huge states that are routinely written off - would actually have a role in the process.  But this concept that CA and NY could just rule over everyone completely ignores the actual population make-up of the states and somehow for whatever reason everyone now wants to forget Texas because it's convenient to pretend that all the big states are blue states.

    Parent

    isnt eric trump (none / 0) (#96)
    by linea on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 07:18:19 PM EST
    married to a jewish woman? ivanka married and converted to judaism.

    comments calling people (none / 0) (#100)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Nov 15, 2016 at 07:52:43 PM EST
    anti-semites and white nationalists and other potentially libelous terms have been deleted.No name calling here.