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Clinton and Trump: The Second Debate

Update: Hillary won (not a surprise.) The New York Times editorial on Trump's performance, Mr. Trump Goes Low:

Sniffing and glowering, Mr. Trump prowled behind Mrs. Clinton as she presented herself again as the only adult on stage, the only one seeking to persuade the great majority of Americans that she shares their values and aspirations. Mr. Trump, by contrast, fell back on the tricks he has learned from his years in pro wrestling and reality television, making clear how deep his cynicism goes.
Update: Shorter version of the debate:

[More...]

And so it begins.

No handshakes tonight!

I'm sorry it's a "town hall" format with the audience asking questions. Bound to be boring. The first question sure was a yawn, about whether they are a good role model for today's youth. It's a ridiculous question for Hillary, no one has questioned her behavior as a candidate. Trump avoids the answer and gives a speech about what he believes.

Anderson calls him on the diversion, and he talks about ISIS cutting off heads. Trump calls his tape locker-rule banter. Anderson tries again and gets the same talk about ISIS. He mentions he'll create jobs.

Update: After some blatently false statements about Hillary and Bill, from claims she didn't fairly win the nomination to she's never accomplished anything, Trump says if he's elected he'll appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary. Hillary responds and he says "Because you'd be in jail."

Hillary: "Trump lives in an alternate reality".

Anderson asks Hillary about Trump's tape. Hillary says for the first time, we have a Republican candidate is unfit to serve.

He sounds like a nut case. Also, he is frowning and pacing while she talks. He can't stay still. I wonder if he has ADHD.

We're back to Hillary's emails. Yawn. After which, Trump asks the moderators, when are you going to ask about her emails. They tell him they just did.

A question directly asks him which provision of the tax code helps people like him. He can't answer, he deflects. He doesn't know the tax code.

He is simply disgusting. It's just too hard to listen to him.

It has taken him an hour to bring up Benghazi. (By the way, Trump advocated sending in our military to take out Gaddafi in 2011. Here is the video.) He says the vacuum we left in Libya led to ISIS (didn't he say the same thing about Iraq?) He's back on ISIS. Russia, Syria and Iran are fighting them, we are not.

Trump: "How Stupid is Our Country".

Trump tells the moderator he disagrees with Pence about use of force in Syria. Hillary says she would not use ground troops in Syria. She says she would target al-Baghdadi and rely more on the Kurds. She wants to push ISIS out of Iraq.

Trump whines that she's getting too much time to answer questions.

Trump: "She has a tremendous amount of hate in her heart."

Last question: What do you respect about the other candidate. The only possible answer for Hillary, she respects his children. He respects that she never quits. They shook hands at the end.

What a horrid debate. Time for another shower.

Update: Another lie: ICE did not endorse him. Agencies don't endorse candidates. A union of ICE employees named The National Immigration and Customs Enforcement Council endorsed him. Big difference. Trump said:

ICE just endorsed me. They've never endorsed a presidential candidate. The Border Patrol agents, 16,500, just recently endorsed me, and they endorsed me because I understand the border.

Update: Trump falsely claimed ISIS has interests in Libyan oil.

Look what she did and Libya with Gaddafi. Gadhafi is out. It’s a mess. And by the way ISIS has a good chunk of their oil.

ISIS has never controlled any oil in Libya and has been losing ground there for months. Libyan news reports it only remains in one district of Sirte, and just barely. (Although ISIS says it launched an attack in recent days, it had nothing to do with oil.) ISIS attacked the Es-Sidra and Ras Lanuf oil export terminals in Sirte 10 months ago. It didn't take the oil, it blew up stuff. ISIS hasn't sold or exported any oil.

False claim about the San Bernardino attackers:

Mr. Trump said “many people saw” bombs all over the apartment of a couple who committed the terrorist attack in San Bernardino, Calif.
< Trump and The Snake: "You Knew Who I Was...." | Republican Party Turmoil, Vol. 82 >
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  • Display: Sort:
    How is it that (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:02:15 PM EST
    the women once again laying accusations at Bill Clinton are allowed into the Town Hall? Perhaps the complainant against Trump should also be seated. There's something fundamentally inappropriate about their presence. I'm too annoyed to come up with an appropriate argument. I hope HRC is less upset by their presence than Pres. Clinton appears to be.

    Trump to me (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:13:12 PM EST
    looks drugged and he's still just yammering on and not answering the question. He's making the same mistake he made in the last debate.

    He's sniffing again (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:18:06 PM EST


    Could the snuffling (none / 0) (#19)
    by Peter G on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 10:04:14 PM EST
    be a nervous tic?

    Parent
    I am glad there are others besides me (none / 0) (#44)
    by Amiss on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 01:12:57 PM EST
    that have noticed it. I have noticed that it gets worse as he begins to concoct one of his big lies.
    Could it be because of a medication?

    Parent
    I get the feeling there (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by caseyOR on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:21:01 PM EST
    will not be much policy talk tonight.

    I hope they soon bring up investigations (none / 0) (#7)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:27:42 PM EST
    of trump's foundation and taxes; otherwise, between official Qs re: emails and Trump's allegations are cornering the early impressions.

    Parent
    Trump said if elected, ... (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:46:33 PM EST
    ... he would direct the DOJ to target Mrs. Clinton for prosecution because she belongs in jail. Simply put, this is inexcusable talk that's the stuff of banana republics.

    It's also something that happens (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peter G on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 10:47:11 PM EST
    to women who run for president in the former Soviet "republics." Tr*mp also called HRC  "the devil," at one point, if my ears did not deceive me. He also admitted not paying federal income tax for the last 15 years or more, I think. (It is hard to tell exactly what he admits or denies because he does not speak in complete declarative sentences, and does not organize his thoughts into paragraphs.) Tr*mp also claimed he knew a lot about the tax law (which his former accountant said last week was not true) while confusing "carried interest" -- which is not the trick he used -- with a "net operating loss carry-forward" -- which is what he used, and is not the same thing at all.

    Parent
    And another thing (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 09:26:13 AM EST
    that prevents me/anyone from knowing exactly what he admits or doesn't is that he does not use verb tenses. Tr*mp often seems to speak in the present tense where context suggests that he would or should be using the past tense to convey what he  would seem to be saying.

    Parent
    I don't think Drumpf (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:04:45 PM EST
    Knows the meaning of words. Everything is a "disaster."


    Hillary Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 11:12:12 PM EST
    deployed the tactics that I hoped she would: she did not rise to all the Chum thrown at her.  The Michelle Obama instruction to take the high road explained her stance.  Secretary Clinton was, as usual, knowledgeable and confident, a good example being her enumerated presentation of the strengths of Obamacare and the steps she proposes for fixing issues that have emerged. Trump was no farther along with Obamacare than to repeal and replace it with something "terrific." As he offered during the primaries.

     Trump's damning Mrs. Clinton for aspiring to single payer is likely to have helped Mrs. Clinton.  Her style was excellent, speaking to the voter and recalling their name in her answer--a real pro.  

    Trump was a mess.  In every way. Stylistically, he was thuggish, hovering around Mrs. Clinton, restive, snorting and sniveling.  The elephant in the room, the bus video of him describing his sexual assault actions, including their advance preparation with tic tacs, was never far away. Trump tried to filibuster with anything that came to mind, but it was there because he was so transparent in his diversionary tactics.  We just waited should it somehow come up again.  

    These things being said, Trump did himself well. The red meat thrown (jail for Hillary, repeal Obamacare, Benghazi, emails)will be eaten up by his base.  And, that is what he needed to inoculate him against an establishment dump.  And, in a way, this becomes a favor to Hillary Clinton and the Democrats.  He needs to stay and continue to bleed from his everyplace.

    CNN poll: 57-34 Hillary wins. (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by MKS on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 11:45:49 PM EST


    Hillary up by 14 in head to head (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by MKS on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 11:42:53 AM EST
    in poll by NBC/WSJ.  She's up by 11 in four way.

    Parent
    Don't say "four way" ... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 07:50:07 PM EST
    ... within earshot of the Donald.  He might get the wrong idea.

    Parent
    "Look, you can elect me, (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 09:26:15 PM EST
    with my years of experience, or a man with such low self control..."

    Parent
    Lovely (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 11:02:27 PM EST
    I feel for his wife but then she chose him. Sad.

    Parent
    My husband said, "Look at him!" (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 10:17:55 AM EST
    He's trying to read her papers....he's going through her desk ;)

    Parent
    My wife and I have a bowl of popcorn (none / 0) (#2)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:06:12 PM EST


    The popcorn vanished in the first ten minutes. (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:45:55 PM EST
    Occurred to me that if DT (none / 0) (#3)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 08:08:44 PM EST
    starts slinging mud, HRC can simply decline to discuss on grounds that the debate is being held during prime time and she, valuing families and children as she does, does not believe the it is an appropriate time to go off topic to get into the smut, not to mention disrespectful to those in attendance who want to hear about other issues important to them.

    Alert: Menacing Clown spotted (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:12:04 PM EST
    on stage right.

    LOL! Jennifer Palmieri reported that ... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 04:27:30 PM EST
    ... Mrs. Clinton was "really tickled by" the following tweet from Moustafa Bayoumi:

    "I'm a Muslim, and I would like to report a crazy man threatening a woman on a stage in Missouri."

    I have to admit, Trump's presidential campaign has been one of the most amazing political spectacles I've ever seen. While its prospective ending is most enjoyable to watch, I do hope my grandson never has to see something this xenophobic, intolerant and demagogic rear its ugly head again in his lifetime.

    Parent

    When isthis mutt going to actually answer (none / 0) (#12)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:31:10 PM EST
    a question?

    Never. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:34:22 PM EST
    He never answers a question.

    Parent
    It's a shame the press (none / 0) (#14)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:39:25 PM EST
    doesn't cross question politicians this aggressively in real life.

    Four sources (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:39:35 PM EST
    are saying that Pence is leaving the ticket with Trump.

    doubtful, here's his (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:52:48 PM EST
    tweet congratulating Trump on the debate and saying he's proud to stand with him.

    Please don't put unsourced, unsubstantiated rumors here.  Your opinion is fine, stated as opinion.

    Parent

    ... reported this earlier today on the Sunday gasbag show This Week. And George Stephanopolous said on This Week that Republicans were leaning on Pence to step down from the ticket. Grant, I consider that to be rumor-mongering, but ABC News is thought by many to be a credible source. Just not by me.

    Parent
    UPDATE: Pence cancels New Jersey fundraiser. (none / 0) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 02:55:06 AM EST
    Newark Star-Ledger | October 10, 2016
    Mike Pence cancels N.J. Trump fundraiser scheduled for Monday in Ocean County - "Donald Trump's running mate, Mike Pence, has canceled his planned visit to New Jersey scheduled for Monday, several GOP sources tell NJ Advance Media. Pence, the governor of Indiana, was scheduled to appear at a fundraiser in Toms River hosted by the Ocean County Republican Organization. The sources who said Pence won't be showing requested anonymity because they are not directly connected to the Trump campaign. Entry to the Pence event required a $50 contribution and was limited to 250 people."

    Having canceled every single on of his appearances this weekend and opting instead to return to Indianapolis, where he took in the Colts-Bears football game this afternoon, you really have to wonder what's going on here.

    Stay tuned.

    Parent

    UPDATE: Pence says he will not step down. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 11:28:22 AM EST
    During an appearance this morning on the Fox News show "Fox & Friends," Mike Pence dismissed reports that he would step down as the GOP's vice presidential nominee. "It's absolutely false to suggest that at any point in time we considered dropping off this ticket," he said. "It's been the greatest honor of my life."

    Parent
    Trump needs to get backstage (none / 0) (#16)
    by fishcamp on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:47:18 PM EST
    fast to get to his inhaler, because during the last fifteen minutes his sniffing and snorting got progressively worse.  Maybe he can blame it on the microphone.  I thought Hillary's answers were clear, precise, and remained on the questions asked.

    LIttle, to no, (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 12:02:28 PM EST
    comments on Trump's snorting and sniveling at the second debate, despite that it was more pronounced this time.  I think we need to find out what's going on....last time Trump denied it, just the bad microphone. If an allergy, there are drugs for that kind of thing.  If Hillary Clinton had such a "tic" it is likely that it would dominate discussion.  

    Parent
    I get the sniffles when I'm in ... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 01:53:32 PM EST
    ... an air-conditioned room where the temperature's been set low. I'm not going to read too much into Trump's sniffling.

    Parent
    Speech therapist says it is an anxiety tic (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 05:10:29 PM EST
    At Dailykos. When I've watched when he does it, seems to make more sense. It seemed at its worst when he held the press conference with the women before the debate

    Parent
    I have sinus issues here, I sniffle a lot (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 03:14:18 PM EST
    A squirt of nose spray though buys me temp relief for hours when it's bad. If I was debating in Nat. TV, I'm doing it. My doctor says it isn't something I get to do daily...but for a debate, well of course. Many nurse friends brought up sinusitis....okay, but wouldn't he take care of that with some OTC nose spray?

    Other concerns...polyps and nasal tumors. I have to watch for those. I think this is a legit health issue/question.

    Parent

    Probably nothing to it (none / 0) (#35)
    by FreakyBeaky on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 07:47:48 PM EST
    But it certainly casts shadows and raises questions, doesn't it?

    Parent
    ... cast such shadows and raise such questions. But speaking for myself, I prefer to heed Michelle Obama's advice -- even if our own respective high road doesn't really need to be all that elevated above the swamp.

    And speaking of swamps, check out the Trump campaign t-shirt on this guy. No doubt, his wife and three daughters -- who are standing on either side of him at today's Trump rally in Scheisskopfburg, PA -- will be so proud of his bold public statement some 20-25 years from now.

    As I said, we needn't be all that high -- or do we?

    ;-D

    Parent

    A young lady wore (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 05:59:52 PM EST
    this t-shirt to the Trump rally in Wilkes-Barre.

    Parent
    Look, I'm not saying he's a cokehead. (none / 0) (#42)
    by FreakyBeaky on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 11:03:05 AM EST
    I'm just saying he sounds like one.

    Parent
    I'm saying he sort of acts (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 11:41:32 AM EST
    like one..

    I half expect him to start talking about drinking tiger blood, banging eight balls, and grabbing ISIS by the p*ssy..

    Parent

    The point is (none / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 12, 2016 at 10:28:39 AM EST
    that his snorting and sniveling during the debate went unnoticed, in large part, in the media's post-debate analysis.  It was more pronounced in the second debate, than in the first.  This "tic" has not been as noticeable when speaking at his rallies, or even, as I recall, during the Republican primary debates.

    Trump, of course, lied about the sniveling after the first debate, blaming the bad microphone.  As Trump might say, there is something going on.  It should not be normalized without further exploration.  

     All the more, since Trump now has a TV ad depicting Mrs. Clinton as having something going on....her needing help to get into the car (during her bout with pneumonia) and calling into question her ability to serve owing to her mysterious illness.  Not that we need to go low, since that would be impossible to match Trump anyway, but it seems to me that some explanation is necessary, be it but a simple allergy. But, why does he deny what can be seen by all.

    Parent

    And with all due respect, it's not one which I'm willing to make.

    Parent
    Howard Dean was interviewed (none / 0) (#45)
    by Amiss on Tue Oct 11, 2016 at 01:35:40 PM EST
    about this, since he is a M.D., he suggested that perhaps the "medication" is cocaine.

    Parent
    Here's the transcript: (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Oct 09, 2016 at 09:49:30 PM EST
    LA Times says Hillary Wins (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 12:26:06 AM EST
    as well

    NPR: Trump in Crisis (electoral vote map as of today)

    My little sister is a Republican, (none / 0) (#32)
    by fishcamp on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 04:08:26 PM EST
    but she has finally given up on Trump.  Before she didn't like Hillary because of the emails and Benghazi, so I talked her through those situations.  Now she doesn't like Hillary because she is taking two of the same meds that our mother had taken.  How she knows this is beyond me.  Finally she said she can't even vote since she has moved to Nevada from Oregon and hasn't been a resident long enough.  I didn't mention that it sounds like a Republican cop out.

    There is no gap in eligibility to vote (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 04:13:43 PM EST
    based on moving within a certain time of election day. She can either vote in Nevada as a new resident, or she can still vote in Oregon. Not that I particularly want her to, but I do believe that everyone's right to vote should be protected.

    Parent
    "Time of my Life" (none / 0) (#39)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Oct 10, 2016 at 09:50:16 PM EST
    There's so much (none / 0) (#51)
    by Nemi on Sat Oct 15, 2016 at 12:13:59 PM EST
    from that debate I found hugely disturbing and which still nags me. To the point of -- still! -- being almost a physical reaction.

    I watched, cringing, how Donald Trump literally stalked Hillary Clinton in a both intolerable and intolerably threatening way. Why didn't the moderators call him out on that behaviour and ask him to stop? Why wasn't that unacceptable behaviour of bigger concern to the media afterwards? And why wasn't it of bigger concern to the media the way he talked to and what he actually said to her!? I don't recall ever having witnessed such a personal, aggressive, unacceptable verbal attack from one politician on a political opponent before.

    And then I watched how Hillary Clinton answered questions, and in one particular instance admired how she addressed the questioner in a direct way, noticed him, listened to and heard what he was asking, noticed that he must himself be in the business, answered him at length -- and how difficult must that have been when the questioners, and the other spectators 'on stage', were apparently instructed to not in any way react with as much as a nod or a smile! So how did the media react to that? Was she praised for being observant, for listening, for answering, for being personal? Was it even noticed by the media? Nah, what media took away from that encounter was instead: Aaawww, what a guy! [Emphasis on 'guy'!] Isn't he cute! What a lovely sweater! Our new  hero! The winner of the debate!

    Some winner, snort!

    And now Trump is in a dither (none / 0) (#52)
    by fishcamp on Sat Oct 15, 2016 at 03:59:59 PM EST
    because Hillary crossed the stage in front of him.  Didn't I see Trump hunkering against a chair behind her looking like a gargoyle?

    Parent
    Hunkering against yes (none / 0) (#53)
    by Nemi on Sat Oct 15, 2016 at 04:44:53 PM EST
    or as many made it out to look like, 'h*mping' the chair. But with his latest (at least as of my writing) projection, that they should take a drug test ahead of the next debate this might be more like it? LolSob ;)

    Parent