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The Pope, Politics and a Fiat

For two hours in the car today, the only news was the Pope's visit to Washington. He rode in a small Fiat. He talked politics, taking sides on issues that showed his independent thinking. Republicans seemed less happy than Democrats, even though he espoused positions both in line with and against those taken by partisans. His views on immigration and climate change more closely matched Democrats while his views on same sex marriage and abortion were closer to Republicans. His views on sex abuse were expected to anger Catholics who think he has aligned too closely with Bishops.

He held a ceremony naming a new saint. Tomorrow he will address Congress. He mingled as much as possible with the people. He's also expected to to visit a homeless shelter at some point where he may serve food. And he'll go to Philadelphia to meet with sex abuse victims. And also visit New York.

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    Bother fidgets while the Pope speaks. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by fishcamp on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:23:21 AM EST
    Looks like he needs a drink.

    Oops. Boehner (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by fishcamp on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:24:24 AM EST
    He's already crying (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:26:26 AM EST
    Is he moved or terrified.

    Or possibly just needs a drink.

    Parent

    I like what he is saying (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:31:11 AM EST
    But the guy is like verbal Ambien.

    So glad I'm not subject to being caught by a camera nodding off.

    The Dream of America (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by christinep on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 10:27:30 AM EST
    Dialogue and the call to reject "simplistic reductionism" ... and the passionate plea to see each other as human beings, not as the other; to act with others as we would want to be treated; to see the humanity as individuals, not numbers.

    Abraham Lincoln. Martin Luther King. Dorothy Day. Thomas Merton.  Look at what we can lean from these Americans and from the rich experience & history of America.  Dream, feel, think, act, and mover forward as a people.  The Pope's words and message .... worth reading and hearing and reflecting and, then, moving forward.

    The only handshake with the Pope (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Towanda on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 12:08:53 PM EST
    in coming into Congress?

    John Kerry.

    Practicing Catholic, threatened -- for his stance on women's reproductive rights -- with excommunication by a bishop since demoted by this Pope . . . who knows so well what he is doing with every gesture, as well as every word.  He is fun to watch.

    I liked this comment from (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:01:45 PM EST
    Elizabeth Warren, which she posted to her Facebook page:

    The Holy Father's address to Congress was a call to recognize the dignity, equality, and good in every person - to recognize it and act upon it. It's up to us to fight for economic and social justice. It's up to us to protect our Earth. It's up to us to remember these, the least of thy brethren, and to build a future for all our kids. Members of Congress come from different faiths and beliefs, but the Pope's words today are a powerful reminder that these are not just political or economic issues - they also are moral issues that reflect our deepest values as a people.


    While at the American Academy (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by KeysDan on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 06:17:02 PM EST
    in Rome, I went to dinner often at one of the little restaurants in Trastevera with friends that included priests and seminarians.

     One night we were joined by a high Vatican official who was a friend of a friend.  Talk, of course, turned to the then relatively new Pope, John Paul II. The table mused and enthused about him--his charisma, his breath of fresh air, on and on.

    Being among friends, I offered my view that was much less wondrous,  which was that their canonization  was premature, time would be a better judge.  My words proved to be a show stopper, they all said they respected my judgment and were interested in my reasons for so saying.  

    The core of my reasoning was that the Pope was building a popular base at the start so as to obtain popular acceptance for his very unpopular and  conservative theology.  And, to take the Church back to another century--a century that that better fitted him, and he believed, the Church.

     This is what, in essence, occurred over his long tenure. A tenure that extends beyond his own papacy, not just with his immediate, and subsequently resigned, and equally conservative  successor, but also,  through the world-wide appointments of like minded bishops and cardinals. Some careerists, but others like Cardinal Burke.  

    Similarly, Pope Francis has been building a popular base, of which the US visit is part. I believe his goal is two fold, to use his popularity to institute change in tone, which is almost tantamount to a change in doctrine, and through his popularity, do an end run around those bishops trapped in theological and traditional amber. The Curia, too, is ossified and needs some limbering up.

      The Pope has a test coming up soon with his own bishops. He and John Boehner  have some similarities in dealing with a tough bunch.  As Gail Collins suggested, after the address before Congress, the Pope may have taken Boehner aside, grabbed him by the  lapels, and said, my son, you're surrounded by crazies, get out while you still can.

    It was good to observe the wisdom of the Pope as conveyed to the Congress--think of the common good, infuse your work and governance with compassion and good will.  But, it was somewhat ironic that some of the dysfunction and divisiveness in the Congress and nation, is rooted in religion-- bringing individualized notions of religiosity and beliefs to secular issues and a diverse culture. It took the Pope to point out their need to bear witness to the value of separation of church and state.  
     

    Francis is also planning (none / 0) (#1)
    by Peter G on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 09:28:57 PM EST
    to visit the county jail in Philadelphia. And to give a talk touching on immigration and religious freedom at Independence Hall, where he will use the lectern (privately owned, and lent for the occasion) that Lincoln spoke from when he delivered the Gettysburg Address. He is staying at the diocesan Seminary, which is less than two miles from our house. There are already temporary "no parking" signs posted on every street for about a half mile around the seminary. We are keeping our heads down for the next few days. Fortunately I work near home, not in the city.

    I Think This Little Girl... (none / 0) (#6)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 08:32:26 AM EST
    ...said, in crayon form, all there needs to be said about immigration.  Also, she is pretty dang cute.

    Parent
    "Republicans seem less happy"? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 10:15:06 PM EST
    I'd say that more than a few of them have become positively apoplectic. There's that crazy Arizona congressman who announced that he's boycotting the Pope's speech to Congress because of His Holiness's "socialist talking points" and "leftist policies." We even had one starboard-leaning poster here (who'll be unnamed) who though it was shameful that Pope Francis would conduct mass in his native Spanish.

    They're all angry because this Pope has deliberately chosen to de-emphasize the divisive "family values" issues of abortion and marriage equality that are so near and dear to right-wing hearts. Rather, he's realigned the Church's mission to more closely reflect his own Jesuit values, by putting much greater value on good works within one's own community, in particular compassion and care for the poor and needy.

    To wit, His Holiness has blistered the world's well-to-do by denouncing their unbridled greed as the "new tyranny," and his appeal about our need to deal realistically with the issue of climate change is part of his overall message about the inherent perils of subordinating the planet's long-term health and viability to short-term profit margins.

    To a GOP that has long espoused the sort of superficial religiosity that former comedian and now U.S. Sen. Al Franken once lampooned as "The Gospel of Supply-Side Jesus," the willingness of Pope Francis to speak truth to power on behalf of his own constituents amounts to nothing less than sacrilege.

    Aloha.

    The right wing's rejection (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 07:28:50 AM EST
    of Francis and his message reminds of the quote attribute to Mahatma Gandhi, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

    Pope Francis' message bring to the forefront how "unchrist-like" right wing and fundamentalist christians are or can be. It strengthens my belief they are frauds, their religion is a fraud perpetrated on the rest of us.

    Parent

    Ghandi was right. (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 08:50:01 AM EST
    And that old story about Jesus tossing the moneylenders out of the temples?  I can't help feeling that if he were around today, Jesus would be divesting snake-tongued, prosperity gospel preachermen of their private jets.


    Parent
    My maternal grandmother, ... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:09:00 PM EST
    ... who was a devout Roman Catholic, used to regularly tell me that those who would wear their religion so prominently on their sleeves, likely do so because there is no room for true faith in their hearts. It was her own variation of Jesus's admonition about public piety, as recounted in Matthew 6:1-2.

    "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    As one Church historian (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by christinep on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:05:59 AM EST
    is reported to have said: The Pope has taken the "war" out of the divisive "culture wars."  

    I don't have the words for any of this, Donald.  Mostly, I feel almost overwhelmed with a kind of joy as to where this loving man--this Pope--is taking us.  Refocus, redirection, and more. The White House brief intro--with Pope & President--was a taste of that face of Pope Francis and the renewed path.  And -- wow-- the transcript of his message to the Bishops yesterday clearly, powerfully says it all.

    As you would well know from the advice attributed to Saint Francis of Assisi: "Preach the gospel always ... use words if necessary."  Peace with you.

    Parent

    That's an interesting concept (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:43:06 AM EST
    As one Church historian is reported to have said: The Pope has taken the "war" out of the divisive "culture wars."  

    On one hand the pope appears to celebrate diversity. On the other he wants to tell us all we need to know about climate change and a variety of other issues. I wonder if he has the slightest understanding of what will happen to the price and availability of energy to the poorest of us if Obama's, and other deluded leaders and hoaxers, policies on energy is implemented.

    He can't have it both ways. Of course the truth is that, like most political leaders and that is what the pope is, he is seeking to instruct his followers, influence others and expand his base.

    While the Left is going gaga over him and the media is drooling on themselves I must point out that the love affair is triggered by the pope's economic beliefs, not what he would accept as okay in sexual matters.

    I could point out that his background is mostly in countries that have a majority of people of his faith while prosperity and freedom has bloomed in more Protestant climes. But that would be ungracious of me.

    In sexual matters his position of inclusiveness matches what most Protestant churches teach. Hate the sin but love the sinner. To the extent Protestants and Catholics actually embrace that all we need to do is watch the screams over two people wanting to legalize their union and proclaim it to the world.

    It is more than enough to make me mutter "hypocrites" but then I am a grumpy old man.

    As a Protestant I put little to no faith in human beings when it comes to religion. Christ wasn't crucified by aliens.

    If a preacher wants to preach from the bible I will listen. If he wants to talk politics I tend to ignore him.

    The pope blessing you is not a ticket to heaven. Neither will the Ghost of Jerry Falwell show up to lead you through those  Pearly Gates.

    Salvation is not a group event.

    Parent

    I think the Pope's message is that (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:12:17 AM EST
    we are all human beings sharing one planet, and that regardless of our religious beliefs, we need to treat each other and our planet better.

    Is that a political message?  It seems like those who want to frame it that way are doing it because they don't like what "treating each other and the planet better" will entail.

    Regardless of whether you believe man is or has been a factor in the changing climate, I think we still have a responsibility to be good stewards of this world in which we live, and in which the generations that follow us will live. The world has to eat and drink, it has to breathe, it has to live, and to suggest that how we act and what we do doesn't matter to whether we can keep doing those things is to be in about as deep a state of denial as it is possible to be.

    Your house doesn't take care of itself.  If you fail to take care of it, at some point, it just falls down around you and you have nothing.  How is it any different for the larger world in which we all reside?

    The measure of who we are as a people is in how we treat the least among us; the Pope's message isn't that his religion or any religion has to be the driving force in doing better, it is that we, as people, need to do better.

    Parent

    Anti-Catholic (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:15:43 AM EST
    rhetoric like this:

    I could point out that his background is mostly in countries that have a majority of people of his faith while prosperity and freedom has bloomed in more Protestant climes. But that would be ungracious of me.

    You really like to blast whole cultures.

    This is so "Southern" to say things like this.....

    Parent

    It's only "Southern" (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:57:01 AM EST
    if finishes with "Bless his heart"

    Parent
    Otoh (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:31:04 AM EST
    You really like to blast whole cultures.

    This is so "Southern" to say things like this.....

    Blasting whole areas of countries in equally clueless ways is fine.

    Parent

    Did you read (none / 0) (#25)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 12:40:59 PM EST
    the quotation marks?

    Are you really trying to be such a pain?

    Parent

    You really have this (none / 0) (#27)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 12:46:13 PM EST
    habit of jumping on comments of mine....that are not addressed to you directly...and your response can be quite acerbic beyond all proportion to my comment. "Clueless?"  Well, no, I am from the South, as is my family for generations.....So, not "clueless".....

    I think this all started when I thought you over-reacted to ISIS.....

    You really seem to have this burr in your saddle....too bad.

    Parent

    Howdy... (3.50 / 2) (#28)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:05:34 PM EST
    ...quit pointing out hypocrisy, out-of-turn.

    Parent
    Hopefully not directed to me (none / 0) (#29)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:08:44 PM EST
    So I will ask you, did you read the quotation marks?

    Parent
    Do You Care... (3.50 / 2) (#31)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:21:15 PM EST
    ...you already gave me a '2', but please, I wouldn't want to get in the way of a child throwing a tantrum over quotation marks, which I don't believe can actually be read, you read what is between them.

    So no, I did not read your quotation marks, but I did see them.

    Parent

    Then, you (none / 0) (#33)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:46:02 PM EST
    did not get it.  It was short hand, but you missed it....and it would take to long to explain.....

    But I am not a "child" throwing a tantrum....That deserves another "2."  The first was for calling my a "hypocrite."

    Try to leave out the ad hominem--you points will be more effective that way.

    Parent

    Ok "quotation marks" (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 02:07:26 PM EST
    Urban dictionary-

    quotation mark effect
    when you put quotes around a certain word or phrase to imply something without saying it directly.

    As to Scotts rather trenchant point, you did exactly what you were accusing him of doing in the same sentence.

    And if you are from the south you are not only clueless but self loathing.

    As for comments I point out dumb comments.  Not your comments.


    Parent

    You just can't (none / 0) (#41)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:24:23 PM EST
    stop with the ad hominem.  Now, "self loathing?"  (btw a different use of quotation marks this time.)

    Why don't you make your point without the insults?

    Has Donald Trump rubbed off on you?

     

    Parent

    Thanks... (none / 0) (#45)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:00:47 PM EST
    ...I have had one of those days and that really made me laugh, no snark intended.  

    Parent
    Here's a hint (none / 0) (#34)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:57:33 PM EST
    Scare quotes

    Link

    Scare quotes are used to cast doubt on a word or phrase, or to emphasize that the word or phrase is being used as a euphemism. Scare quotes are best used in moderation.

    He rarely spoke of the "incident" that caused him to leave his previous employer.

    The think tank's "analysis" of the issue left much to be desired.

    And, as this exchange with you and Howdy shows,  this use of quotation marks needs to take into account your audience....and you guys clearly did not get it.

    Parent

    Well traditionally, in the far right univerese (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:59:21 AM EST
    of the Birchers and Klan, Catholics were another one of those dimmly understood, deeply feared groups that threatened to go down there and stir up trouble with their social gospel while threatening the purity of the northern european gene pool..    

    Parent
    I don't know about clueless.. (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:27:33 AM EST
    Red America's been dropping clues the last few decades the way cows stink up a pasture..

    Parent
    You also could point out (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Towanda on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 12:05:55 PM EST
    that the Pope is a trained scientist -- his earlier career -- so probably knows more than you, or most of us, about sustainable energy, climate change, etc.

    But, of course, you didn't do so.  

    Parent

    If he does then that makes his position even (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:49:20 PM EST
    worse.

    But I doubt that he does.

    Parent

    what's your scientific background, Jim? (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:12:00 AM EST
    at your blog you allude to the idea that scientists can't be trusted to do science, because, according to you, they "believe things"..

    Don't be shy, I'm sure folks here would be interested in hearing about how you came by your definitive, all-encompassing grasp of the limitations of scientists and of the scientific method.

    Parent

    Looks Like the Liberal Hoax... (none / 0) (#80)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:17:40 PM EST
    ...just 'fooled' 20% of the worlds population:

    China to Announce Cap-and-Trade Program to Limit Emissions

    Parent

    Well the hoaxers (none / 0) (#95)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:14:28 PM EST
    fooled most of the planet about the existence of the Periodic Table, relativity, photosynthesis etc..

    It figures that rest of the world would eventually capitulate on manmade global warming..

    Parent

    Rumor (none / 0) (#97)
    by FlJoe on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:29:45 PM EST
    Has it Inhofe and friends are going to  try to get the Supremes to overturn the first law of thermodynamics.

    Parent
    We should start a web petition and a pac (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:35:01 PM EST
    I see money to be made

    Parent
    There are those who say (none / 0) (#100)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:36:43 PM EST
    the first law of thermodynamics doesn't meet the requirements of a scientific theory..

    People who've mastered all the branches of human knowledge through a career in Naval Aviation and in sales.

    Parent

    Oh, honestly! (none / 0) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:43:35 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "Of course the truth is that, like most political leaders and that is what the pope is, he is seeking to instruct his followers, influence others and expand his base. While the Left is going gaga over him and the media is drooling on themselves I must point out that the love affair is triggered by the pope's economic beliefs, not what he would accept as okay in sexual matters. [...] If a preacher wants to preach from the bible I will listen. If he wants to talk politics I tend to ignore him."

    Those of you on the right who keep insisting that Pope Francis is somehow "too political" really need to pause for a moment, take a long and hard look at yourselves, and carefully consider what it is that you're actually saying. Seriously.

    Because it's your own politicians, and not those denizens of the left or center, who've carved veritable careers for themselves out of the wholesale demonization of public policies which seek to protect the environment, or care and provide for the poor, the needy, the marginalized and the displaced.

    And you are the ones who both regularly and perversely ridicule others for their empathy and compassion for the less fortunate, as though one's own expressions of concern for the human condition are somehow symptomatic of a personal weakness and folly.

    Yet when Pope Francis has the audacity to come to Washington and speak truth to temporal power, directly challenging the right's own moral authority on such matters, while further presenting to others for their consideration a rational and humane alternative to the right's reductionist philosophy and policies, he's the one who's being "political"?

    Well, okay, then so be it. After all, it was your own side who deliberately chose this ground upon which to do battle. It was the GOP Speaker of the House, John Boehner, who extended the formal invitation to Pope Francis to address a joint session of Congress. And now, you've been reduced to plaintive whining because His Holiness rose to the occasion and proved himself the Happy Warrior.

    "I think we're in a weird place in the world when the following things are considered political -- five things and I'm going to tick them off. These are the five things that are on [the Pope's] and the president's agenda.

    "Caring for the marginalized and the poor, that's now political. Advancing equal opportunity for all. Political? Serving as good stewards of the environment. Protecting religious minorities and promoting religious freedom globally. Welcoming and integrating immigrants and refugees globally -- and that's all political.

    "I don't know what we expect to hear from an organization's leader like the Pope of the Catholic Church, other than protect those who need help, bring in refugees who have no place because of war and violence and terrorism. These seem like universal truths, that we should be good to others who have less than we do, that we should give shelter to those who don't have it.

    "I think that these were the teachings in the Bible, of Jesus. They're the words of the Pope, they're the feelings of the president, and people who find themselves on the other side of that message should consult a mirror, because it seems like that's what we're supposed to do as a people, whatever your religion."
    -- Shepard Smith (Fox News), at the official White House welcoming ceremony for Pope Francis (September 23, 2015)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    et al (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:37:13 PM EST
    anne, I agree with your universal love and kisses but that doesn't prove that the Pope isn't a political leader.  He heads a country with borders, has an army, has a state department and relations with many other countries and controls his own agents in those countries.

    The MMGW hoax isn't about :

    "The world has to eat and drink, it has to breathe, it has to live, and to suggest that how we act and what we do doesn't matter to whether we can keep doing those things is to be in about as deep a state of denial as it is possible to be."

    It is about political control. Even if man had influence without China and India nothing can be done. And if you drive up the cost of energy then a lot of poor people....the least among us....will starve. If the Pope doesn't understand that then he is truly uninformed.

    MKS - If the shoe fits wear it. Just look at the various predominately Catholic countries. They are flooding us with people just as Islamic countries are flooding Europe. Of course we have volunteered to take our fair share. And yes, that's sarcasm.

    Donald - The "happy warrior?" Surely you jest. But I did enjoy your denial of the obvious and the pure fiction of your outrageous claims. It seems you didn't read. Please do so again and tell me what you find wrong with this.

    In sexual matters his position of inclusiveness matches what most Protestant churches teach. Hate the sin but love the sinner. To the extent Protestants and Catholics actually embrace that all we need to do is watch the screams over two people wanting to legalize their union and proclaim it to the world.

    It is more than enough to make me mutter "hypocrites" but then I am a grumpy old man.

    As a Protestant I put little to no faith in human beings when it comes to religion. Christ wasn't crucified by aliens.

    If a preacher wants to preach from the bible I will listen. If he wants to talk politics I tend to ignore him.

    The pope blessing you is not a ticket to heaven. Neither will the Ghost of Jerry Falwell show up to lead you through those  Pearly Gates.

    I think you just want to lecture and disagree.

    Parent

    We can either take care of the planet, (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 06:45:10 AM EST
    or not.  We can either take care of each other, or not.  We can be kinder, or not.  These are choices that have consequences, both on the micro and macro levels.

    What I get from you, and others who express the kinds of opinions you do, is that you don't want the government taking a role, you want these choices to be strictly personal ones, even when it comes to businesses and manufacturers.  We should just depend on the drug manufacturer to make sure its products are safe.  We should just trust that the companies that bring our food to market are maintaining clean facilities and putting non-contaminated foods on the store shelves.  We should assume that the materials spewing into our air and water from manufacturing plants will not harm the environment.  

    And so on.

    If it were that easy, if self-regulation actually worked, we wouldn't need the government to step in to protect our health and safety and the environment in which we live, would we?

    Really, jim, your ideas just stretch credulity to the point where you must be covered in red welts from it repeatedly snapping in your face.

    Your short-sightedness and eyes wide shut approach to life just boggles my mind.

    Parent

    anne writes: (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:58:45 AM EST
    " What I get from you, and others who express the kinds of opinions you do, is that you don't want the government taking a role, you want these choices to be strictly personal ones, even when it comes to businesses and manufacturers.
    "

    You can find no place where I have opined that government should not have a role and regulations should not exist. You are just making things up in a a fevered desire to attack.

    And I again offer you the opportunity to show us how MMGW meets the requirements to be a Scientific Theory.


    Parent

    Why would you think he doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:11:25 AM EST
    believe in regulation just because he's said the EPA should be dissolved?

    Parent
    This is the part where he sinks down (none / 0) (#78)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:54:24 AM EST
    into the muck only to reappear in a different part of the swamp hours later..

    Parent
    Man made Global warming, or (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Anne on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:48:16 AM EST
    climate change, is very real, jim.  Even Exxon knew this:

    But it turns out Exxon didn't just "know" about climate change: it conducted some of the original research. In the nineteen-seventies and eighties, the company employed top scientists who worked side by side with university researchers and the Department of Energy, even outfitting one of the company's tankers with special sensors and sending it on a cruise to gather CO2 readings over the ocean. By 1977, an Exxon senior scientist named James Black was, according to his own notes, able to tell the company's management committee that there was "general scientific agreement" that what was then called the greenhouse effect was most likely caused by man-made CO2; a year later, speaking to an even wider audience inside the company, he said that research indicated that if we doubled the amount of carbon dioxide in the planet's atmosphere, we would increase temperatures two to three degrees Celsius. That's just about where the scientific consensus lies to this day. "Present thinking," Black wrote in summary, "holds that man has a time window of five to ten years before the need for hard decisions regarding changes in energy strategies might become critical."

    Here's the source article from Inside Climate News.

    Here's the bottom line, jim: it doesn't matter whether man-made global warming or climate change meet the definition of a scientific theory.  It just doesn't have to first meet that definition in order for man's role in this to be acknowledged, and for actions to be taken, policies to be developed and remediation implemented to slow, stop or reverse the effects of man's relationship with the planet.  

    In much the same way, just because I can't point to a scientific theory that you're stuck on stupid doesn't mean that with my own eyes, I can't read daily evidence that that's exactly where you are: stuck on, nailed down to, Krazy-glued onto, stupid.

    Parent

    Insult away, dear anne. It proves you don't (1.00 / 1) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:06:15 PM EST
    have a point and can't debate with facts.

    Please, anne. You cannot the intellectually honest when you say "climate change" when you mean man made global warming.  Two completely separate things.

    And you could not be more wrong when you write:

    " It just doesn't have to first meet that definition in order for man's role in this to be acknowledged, and for actions to be taken, policies to be developed and remediation implemented to slow, stop or reverse the effects of man's relationship with the planet."

    You cannot be developing policies for something that may not exist. It is like nuking a city because there might be an Ebola patient loose.

    As for Black, the predominant theory in 1977 was global cooling. Where they wrong then or now?

    And, as I noted to jondee, there is no scientific consensus... unless you think 36% is a consensus.

    Look, the Pope is just currying favor with the Left in an attempt to woo them to follow him on other items such as gay marriage and abortion. He is first and foremost a politician.

    If you want a good overview of what's going on, read this link

    See Figure 1. Note that the world was much warmer 1000 years ago that it is today and there were no planes, trains or automobiles around to blame.


    Parent

    If you place your ear next to his (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:58:05 AM EST
    You can hear the ocean.

    Parent
    Or crickets. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:15:12 PM EST
    :-D

    Parent
    You're hopeless, Jim. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:46:19 PM EST
    Good night.

    Parent
    One or two pearls from Jesus (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 12:32:50 AM EST
    got lodged in Jim's hooves on the muddy road to his personal, exclusive "salvation"; so along with bastardized, politicized science, we have to subjected to mangled theology..

    Parent
    jondee, "mangled theology?" (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:46:32 AM EST
    Really? Do you not understand that "love the sinner and hate the sin" is based on "Love thy neighbor as yourself. There is no greater commandment.." (Mark 12:31)

    Indeed all of the advances of western civilization is based on this because it teaches tolerance. Think. Witches were once burned. Now they have their own Facebook page. This also is one of the defining differences between Christianity and Islam.

    And politicized science?? Really? It is not the people who say that MMGW is not a Scientific Theory that are trying to pass laws about this.

    Parent

    There isn't one christianity (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:30:19 AM EST
    and there isn't one Islam. And you're smearing with a broad brush again..

    And, there had already been a thousand years of Love Thy Neighbor while mass witch burnings, torture, pogroms, and persecutions were still going on..

    Parent

    Actually, no. (1.00 / 2) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:17:47 PM EST
    There had not been 1000 years. Remember that the bible was not available to the masses. Catholic Mass was in Latin.

    Never the less, when you reject "love the sinner and hate the sin" you have rejected one of the basics of Christianity.

    Sounds like you are ripe to be recruited by the Westboro Baptists.

    Parent

    Sorry, Jim, but (none / 0) (#96)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:21:53 PM EST
    the Westboros of the world are still firmly ensconced in your beloved right-wing coalition -- without which, you couldn't elect someone to head the Department of Animal Control.

    You courted and coddled 'em, now you're stuck with 'em.

    Parent

    Again.. (none / 0) (#75)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:17:53 AM EST
    you understand more about what constitutes a true scientific theory than the overwhelming majority of the world's scientists..

    How did they all fail to grasp that elementary definition while a savant like you grasps it so confidently?

    Parent

    Uh, Jondee (1.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 02:10:53 PM EST
    it is the scientists's  definition.

    And no, not ALL believe in MMGW.

    In fact, the number is 36%. Barely over 1 in 3.

    Shall be bankrupt the country based on that?

     

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#90)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:26:25 PM EST
    they interviewed  geologists and engineers in the oil industry
    To answer this question, we consider how climate change is constructed by professional engineers and geoscientists in the province of Alberta, Canada. We begin by describing our research context and the strategic importance of Canadian oil worldwide, to the economy of Canada, and the province of Alberta. We outline the influential role of engineers and geoscientists within this industry, which allows them to affect national and international policy. Then, we describe our research design and methods.
     

    This study is not even meant to be a poll,

    This paper examines the framings and identity work associated with professionals' discursive construction of climate change science, their legitimation of themselves as experts on `the truth', and their attitudes towards regulatory measures.

    My take is they specifically went looking for scientifically educated deniers and tried to understand their rationales

    we reconstruct the frames of one group of experts who have not received much attention in previous research and yet play a central role in understanding industry responses - professional experts in petroleum and related industries
    .

    It's basically a study of the old truism, "it's hard to convince a person of something if their paycheck depends on believing otherwise". Who's paying you Jim?

    Pro Tip: Actually read and at least try to understand your links before you start crowing about them.

    Parent

    "salvation is not a group thing" (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 01:40:15 AM EST
    which is why all that hippy-dippy, peace creep "love thy neighbor" jazz is irrelevant..

    Just send a check to the 700 Club or the Heritage Foundation and your exclusive "personal savior" will put in a good word for you with the big talk radio host in the sky..

    Parent

    Why do you write such nonsense (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:03:49 AM EST
    when I have clearly stated:

    As a Protestant I put little to no faith in human beings when it comes to religion. Christ wasn't crucified by aliens.

    If a preacher wants to preach from the bible I will listen. If he wants to talk politics I tend to ignore him.

    The pope blessing you is not a ticket to heaven. Neither will the Ghost of Jerry Falwell show up to lead you through those  Pearly Gates.



    Parent
    Salvation isn't an individualist matter (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:11:54 AM EST
    if you're commanded to love your neighbor and to comfort the widow and visit those on prison.

    Is that clear enough for you, Pastor Robertson?

    Parent

    btw still waiting to hear the details (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:15:28 AM EST
    of your extensive scientific background..

    Again, no need to be shy..


    Parent

    Since you are the (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:47:50 AM EST
    one claiming to be the expert.

    You first.

    Parent

    wow (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:01:12 AM EST
    you're no expert, but somehow you know more about climate science than the overwhelming majority of the world's scientists..

    How did that come about?

    Don't tell me..divine inspiration.

    Parent

    jondee, I have provided information on my (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:20:23 PM EST
    post Naval Aviation career. I can't help it if your memory fails you. They tell me fish oil helps.

    Parent
    Opening a door is not the same as walking (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:49:26 AM EST
    through it.

    Parent
    Just make sure that door (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:05:50 AM EST
    doesn't have a Don't Tread On Me sign on it..

    Parent
    Or hits you (none / 0) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:08:37 AM EST
    In the ass on the way out.

    Parent
    Capt. why do you insult someone who supports (2.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:09:29 PM EST
    you??

    I mean, really. It is like you want to run off anyone who is willing to say, "Hey, your'e welcome in my world but I don't agree with your politics in some cases."

    Why do you demand absolute agreement??

    Parent

    Don't tread on me?? (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:17:43 PM EST
    Sign?? Look, the point is simple. Someone can lead, teach, give examples, etc., but they can't confess someone else's sins.

    Now, you know that. So why all the hostility and attacks?? Do you claim that salvation is based purely on good works? Read James. Faith brings salvation via confession and acknowledgement. Work prevents sin.

    Parent

    Yes, I was just about to post about this guy (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 07:41:45 AM EST
    He is also a Catholic though. You can't be a Catholic and boycot the pope. Isn't that a mortal sin or something Donald? He just told HIS voice of God on earth to shove it?

    Parent
    I just fail to see how the Pope is (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 08:23:52 AM EST
    preventing any Catholic from adhering to the tenets of the faith; what he does seem to be doing is reminding the so-called faithful that there is more to Catholicism than the Church's doctrine on gays and abortion.

    What I find interesting, in a completely aggravating way, is that for all the braying and bellowing by politicians about being prevented from practicing their religion, there are quite a few who, when the opportunity presents itself to align their faith with their politics where it concerns the poor, the homeless, women and children, climate change, etc., completely turn their backs on their faith, backing and pushing policies that hurt people and hurt the planet.

    I guess these guys don't like the head of the Catholic Church coming over here and delivering a message that exposes what utter hypocrites they are.

    In that respect, I wouldn't mind him sticking around a little longer!

    Parent

    That's not for me to judge. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:36:50 PM EST
    Of course, I have my personal opinion about Congressman Paul Gosar, in that I think he's being a blooming right-wing idiot.

    But as far as Gosar's having committed a mortal sin by boycotting the Pope's address, well, I believe that he is exercising his inherent and God-given right to act upon his own free will. And personally speaking, I've committed enough mortal sins in my lifetime that I'm hardly one to be pointing any fingers at anyone in this regard.

    That said, the Rev. Gerald E. Murray, J.C.D., pastor of Holy Family Church in New York, thinks that Rep. Gosar is being very shortsighted.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The speaking to the joint session (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:18:59 AM EST
    Looks like a snowflake on an ash pile

    I wish they would show (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 09:28:58 AM EST
    Who is, and is not, clapping.   Probably not accidental they are not.

    That Fiat 500L is very cool. (none / 0) (#16)
    by fishcamp on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 10:26:39 AM EST
    It must be custom made, with bullet proof doors and windows.  They have shown it traveling with the windows down several times, which seems strange.  Having driven around Italy in the regular tiny Fiat, I would love to have.had one like that.

    separation of church and state? (none / 0) (#24)
    by thomas rogan on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 12:34:46 PM EST
    If the pope came to Congress with the primary message of calling for the banning of abortions, also a Roman Catholic teaching, people would blast him for mixing religion and politics.

    If some of our members of Congress could (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:45:09 PM EST
    ever remember this themselves, and stop invoking God and their religion every time they open their mouths, perhaps you'd have a point.

    And perhaps, if the work of the House and Senate didn't begin every day with a prayer, again, maybe you'd have a point.

    I find it deeply ironic that you would choose to snipe at something that didn't happen, in a place where God is regularly invoked and religion is wielded like a cudgel for the express purpose of trying to impose it on others, in spite of the constitutional imperative to separate the work of the state from the work of the church.

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:59:02 PM EST
    ...because the moral equivalent of peace and love is banning abortion.  I think, and I doubt I am alone in thinking that anyone trying to give more rights gets precedence over someone wanting to take them away.

    How did I know the Pope speaking to Congress would devolve into 'what ifs' about abortion ?  It's practically a law of the universe, when a republican speaks about religion, abortion is always part of the conversation.  Almost like it's in the Bible, but amazingly, the all-powerful being who knows all, forgot to include that chapter.

    I guess it realized that in the future the idiot brigade would never stopping talking about it and sparred the world a couple thousand years of mind numbing pain.

    And whatever you do, worry about abortion and just forget anything else the Pope has to say... God forbid you learn something about Christianity from an expert.

    Parent

    yes because (none / 0) (#30)
    by CST on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 01:12:29 PM EST
    He's the first pope to have ever come here and that's not exactly what happened every other time.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 02:53:45 PM EST
    He's the third Pope to visit the US.

    He's the first to address Congress.

    Parent

    fair enough (none / 0) (#39)
    by CST on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 02:54:39 PM EST
    On the congress part.

    Parent
    The first Pope to visit the (none / 0) (#42)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 03:37:32 PM EST
    USA anytime in his life was Piux XII.  Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, then Vatican Secretary of State, and later Pope Pius XII,  toured the country in 1936, and met with President Roosevelt. At the time, he was the highest ranking Vatican official to have ever visited the US.  

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 02:16:54 PM EST
    If the pope came to Congress with the primary message of calling for the banning of abortions, also a Roman Catholic teaching ..............

    ...........or any of the other restrictive repressive crappola we have heard for centuries - one of the people pooping their pampers would have a single solitary problem with it.

    It's all about who's on is being gored.

    Parent

    Um (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 02:34:34 PM EST
    ..........or any of the other restrictive repressive crappola we have heard for centuries - NONE of the people pooping their pampers would have a single solitary problem with it.

    It's all about who's OX is being gored.

    Maybe I will just go back to sleep

    Parent

    Francis is not the first pope to have (none / 0) (#93)
    by caseyOR on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 11:25:10 AM EST
    visited the U.S. Pope Paul VI came here in October 1965. He delivered a speech to the U.N. that was both urgent and moving in its condemnation of war and plea for the U.S. and other countries to lead the world away from war.

    In his time Paul VI was the most widely-traveled Pope in history. John Paul II is the current record holder.

    Parent

    Pope Francis (none / 0) (#26)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 12:44:04 PM EST
    offered common cause on secular and moral justifications. There was something for everyone in the sense of something for everyone to consider. His approach was to instruct by citing four Americans and their secular and moral guidance, laced with their own, and innate,  spirituality. Two non-Catholic, two Catholic.

    Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King, Jr were iconic leaders--albeit, at this point,  relatively safe exemplars.

     Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton were instructive and illustrative. Both were Catholic activists whose approaches took different pahs of activism.

     But both were Catholic activists with a holistic and ecumenical reach.  Dorothy Day, who is now on the road to sainthood, was an activist in the pursuit of social justice, who pursued her goals with action.

     Thomas Merton embraced his activism in a contemplative fashion. But, no less active in his fervor for  interfaith dialog.  Both voices were important, Day's loud, Merton's less oo.

      Both were silenced: Day was told by Cardinal Spellman that she should not call herself "Catholic."  Attempts were made to silence Thomas Merton.  

    The Pope's examples, provide the tone that he is suggesting, for all religions, without regard to specific theological doctrines, especially Catholicism. And, he rehabilitated Day and Merton, as workers and for their work.

    The examples of  

    Sunspots? Trouble in paradise? (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 04:32:17 PM EST
    LGBT Catholics Alarmed With Pope's Remarks About "Unjust Discrimination"


    "It set off warning bells," she told BuzzFeed News.
    The term itself -- "unjust discrimination" -- appears in a key, conflicting paragraph in the Catholic catechism about homosexuality. "This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial," it says. "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided."
    Pope Francis on Wednesday also visited Little Sisters of the Poor, who in 2013 filed a lawsuit to challenge provisions of the Affordable Care Act that require employers to provide contraception coverage. The nuns cite religious objections. While the pope was supporting the nuns' legal challenge by making an appearance, it is unclear that the pope's comments earlier in the day were confined to that issue.
    Contacted by BuzzFeed News in a phone call, Father Federico Lombardi, a spokesman for the pope, did not clarify which subjects the pope was addressing -- same-sex marriage, the Affordable Care Act, homosexuals in the church, or something else -- when discussing discrimination and religious freedom.


    True enough, (none / 0) (#49)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 06:39:59 PM EST
    But it is wise to run with the ambiguity.  Pope Ratzinger, for example, never left a doubt.  Francis has made no outright condemnations, which has been noted, keeping up with the tone. And, p.r. But, his remarks in Philadelphia, on family and marriage will be watched.

    Parent
    The sunny side of this story (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 07:12:34 PM EST
    Of course is its over.  His support for marriage equality is no longer needed.   And with marriage and military service equality all the rest will follow.  

    My personal problems with the church have long been the mind blowing hypocrisy on sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular.  Let's just say I've known priests.

    I'm happy to take the good news with this pope and try to ignore the rest.  

    Just don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

    Parent

    I'm glad that you are willing to (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by christinep on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 08:52:11 PM EST
    take the good news in your view of the Pope.  In many ways, I'm starting to realize that is a good approach in viewing all people I meet or know.  For me, the reason is: The perfect person--or, at least, the one who agrees with everything that I believe and/or see--has not been found so far.

    Quests define us in many ways, I think.

    Parent

    The perfect is the enemy of the good. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 24, 2015 at 11:57:03 PM EST
    Pope Francis is not going to turn everything around overnight. But by re-orienting the Church's priorities toward other, more compelling problems than gay marriage and women's reproductive rights, he's making it possible for the Church in the future to move beyond its knee-jerk opposition to those issues to one of eventual acceptance, however grudging that may initially be.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I don't hold out a tremendous amount (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:56:26 AM EST
    of hope for the Church when it can't publicly connect the most obvious and elementary of dots that lead to it's sex scandals and reassess the Church's medieval dogma of the importance of priestly celibacy..

    Freud said a hundred years ago that repression just leads to the return of the repressed in distorted form..

    Parent

    Brake for (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 10:10:27 AM EST
    Incoming platitudes  

    Parent
    ... then you don't have to hold out hope for the Holy Mother Church. Those who aren't Catholic, or aren't planning to convert to Roman Catholicism, shouldn't concern themselves with church dogma.

    As far as the Church's sex scandals are concerned, again, its victims have been overwhelmingly Catholic, and not non-Catholic. Perceptions of outside pressure / interference from non-Catholics -- however well-intentioned it may be -- tends to cause Catholics to close ranks in solidarity with church leadership, which is likely counterproductive to any desire for justice and solutions. Honestly, this is an issue with which the Catholic faithful themselves must effectively grapple and ultimately come to terms, if any meaningful reforms are to ever occur here.

    As a practicing Roman Catholic, I've long since learned to keep my own counsel when it comes to matters of women's reproduction freedom and LGBT rights. If I can choose to ignore the nonsense that emanates from the close-minded old men in golden robes and ruby slippers, so can you. Their era is coming to a close anyway, as they die off and younger priests move up the ranks.

    I take the long view that institutional change in large organizations such as the Catholic Church doesn't happen overnight, and impatience can lead only to perpetual disappointment. And if the Church is to survive, then it must endeavor to reflect the times in which it exists by casting off the obsolescent and divisive.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Right, since I'm not Catholic (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:30:33 PM EST
    it's none of my business if the Church encourages impoverished people around the world to have EVEN MORE malnourished children..None of my business what disturbed, twisted Priests do with children on weekend retreats..

    And since I'm also not a Maoist, it's none of my business what the Chinese and the North Koreans do.

    Are you serious?

    Parent

    Yes, I am perfectly serious. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 05:17:20 PM EST
    As a non-Catholic, you're really in no position to compel the Church to change its ways in accordance with your own desires.

    Far better that you should instead concern yourself with those matters which you can actually effect, rather than waste your time shaking your fist in impotent rage at me, particularly with regards to an institution which is otherwise perfectly content to ignore you.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes, the Holy Church's ways are not our ways.. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 09:15:41 PM EST
    Who are any of us to question anything it does?

    You sound like Tom Cruise defending the Church of Scientology.

    Parent

    The stupidity... (none / 0) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 at 09:50:36 AM EST
    ...of your comment by replacing a couple words:
    As a non-Republican/evangelic, you're really in no position to compel the Republican Party/Church to change its ways in accordance with your own desires.

    You are basically saying no one can have an opinion about something like  Apostolic views on gay marriage or republican views on stem cells, unless they are members, paleeze.  

    This is America, dude, and you first one to rip on groups you don't belongs to, so save us the "stay out of my church's business" speech.

    Parent

    Honestly (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 03:09:46 PM EST
    This seems a rather odd statement considering what we have all been through the last few days.

    To say the Catholic Church is of no concern to anyone to anyone but Catholics will work when the church stops meddling in public policy

    Now I've said I welcome some of this Popes meddling.  But bottom line is you meddle you deal with opinions f non Catholics.

    Get over it.

    Parent

    Maybe the "get over it" part, Howdy (none / 0) (#91)
    by christinep on Fri Sep 25, 2015 at 09:39:27 PM EST
    could apply to you.  While I understand your concerns about some so-called Christians, from my perspective your antipathy toward all religious is quite evident.  That is your prerogative, of course ... and, it is also my prerogative to view your cumulative comments as painting with too broad a hostile, anti-religious brush.

    We all have our own very personal experiences when it comes to religious beliefs and spiritual life.  Mutual respect would be very welcome.

    Parent

    We will get over it (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 08:15:21 AM EST
    When the church stays out of our lives.   Like I said.

    Parent
    And, like I said (none / 0) (#94)
    by christinep on Sat Sep 26, 2015 at 12:00:14 PM EST
    It is about mutual respect.  Don't you think that--at some point--mutual forgiveness might be in order ... not preaching, just saying.  Things do (and should) change over the years.  After all, we start anew each day; at least, that is my experience; and, sometimes, it warms the soul to be hopeful. Peace.

    Parent