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Saturday College Football Open Thread

0-2 last night. I'm on fire! Reverse the following picks:

Mississippi +7 (3 units) @ Alabama; @ Kentucky +3 1/2 over Florida; Stanford @ USC; Rutgers +9 @ Penn State; South Carolina +17 @ Georgia; BYU +18 (4 units) @ UCLA; Northern Illinois @ Ohio State -35); East Carolina +4 1/2 @ Navy; Georgia Tech -2 @ Notre Dame; Auburn -7 @ LSU; Nebraska @ Miami Florida -3; Northwestern @ Duke -3; Nevada +35 @ Texas A&m; South Florida +7 1/2 @ Maryland; Wake Forest @ Army +7; Illinois @ North Carolina -7; Connecticut +22 @ Missouri.

Go Gators!

Open Thread.

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    According to the WSJ, (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by lentinel on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 10:15:56 AM EST
    Biden is likely to jump in to the race of 2016.

    They say,


    Vice president's aides debate timing of entry and hone message for a possible campaign...

    Don't you love it?

    His aides are honing his fking message - as if we don't already know it.

    If some candidate can't hone his own godddam message, to he!! with them. Sorry for the bile... but jees louise!

    I can't think of a better way to wrest complete annihilation at the polls that for the Dems to present us with this relic.

    Need a drink.

    Time will tell, lentinel (none / 0) (#4)
    by christinep on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 02:11:12 PM EST
    In the meantime, I was curious about the origination of the latest story about VP Biden's intent.  Here is what I found: The outlets carrying the "story" beginning on 9/18 included The Wall Street Journal, the Drudge Report; a magazine called The Rational Nation (which, near as I can tell, tracks very conservative in view of the reference to "Conservative Manifesto" on its masthead as well as to one of its mainstay inspirations listed further down, Ayn Rand), the Tea Party News, etc.

    Perhaps, Joe Biden will ultimately be persuaded to run.  For now: Take a look at the early purveyors ... try a search to find out about the so-called donor supporters outside his inner circle and about-to-be-dislodged-in-2017-staff ... and consider that some of the reported driving language is coming from the far right.  Could it be that--with the emails-Gowdy-driven narrative losing steam--the Repubs have to find/push & hope it catches on with the likes of HuffPo and others this new wedgie story???? Hmmmm.

    I don't pretend to know what is really going on in the jockeying phase.  My curiosity led me to look for background, and--in a few minutes--I found myself even more curious.  Among other things, the rightwing press (including the quite conservative Politico) were clued in first.  Fascinating.  Who will bite next ... mayhaps the ever-ready NYT?

    Parent

    Which relic? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 08:54:27 AM EST

    Sanders, Clinton, or the new fresh face Biden?  Maybe Jerry Brown will jump in.

    Parent
    I really love this woman (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by CST on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 11:07:03 AM EST
    "In a letter signed by three of her Democratic Senate colleagues, Warren urged the Internal Revenue Service to finalize a rule it proposed in July aimed at forcing fund managers to apply a higher tax rate to income from management fees."

    "The letter is a classic Warren opening salvo for a Washington fight: She tends to put agencies on notice that she's tracking a part of their process that typically gets little attention and then uses her star power with the media to broadcast her concerns."

    Link

    Hillary opposes keystone XL (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 04:48:33 PM EST
    Obvious (none / 0) (#107)
    by FlJoe on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 04:53:00 PM EST
    pandering on her part, some will say.

    Parent
    Overdue pandering (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 07:14:31 PM EST
    Others will say.  Who cares.

    It's the right decision.

    Parent

    Some people simply live to ... (none / 0) (#113)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 12:02:30 AM EST
    ... damn others if they don't conform right away, and then damn them when they finally do, for taking too long.

    Parent
    Sorry to keep bringing this up but, (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by fishcamp on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 09:53:37 PM EST
    a fisherman friend just drove in from Charleston with a huge cooler of fresh white shrimp.  He left me with several pounds that I'll both eat fresh and freeze.  They hold very well frozen.  He said white shrimp, as opposed to the famous Key West pinks, are much lower in iodine, which affects many.  I love that these younger friends keep me loaded with fresh seafood.  Tomorrow I'm making a batch of Zorba's Famous Tzatziki to go with the shrimp, which will be a new food combo for me.  Rain, rain go away, and take the lightening with you.

    EMMYs (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 10:48:52 AM EST
    Tomorrow night.

    Everyone has their predictions up.   The only one I care about are Tatyana Maslany and Peter Dinklage.

    Would be nice to see Game of Thrones get some love.

    I expect a Mad Men fest .

    Hoping for the Mad Men fest here (none / 0) (#12)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:20:32 PM EST
    Laid in my martini supplies this afternoon.

    Jon Hamm deserves his Emmy - he had tough competition in Bryan Cranston most of the run of Mad Men, so I cannot say he was robbed....but it has to be his turn now.

    Parent

    My favorite Don and Peggy scene... (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:24:54 PM EST
    From a couple of seasons  ago, but this was Hamm's all time Emmy reel - he still deserves it for this.

    Parent
    Oooh, well done Matt Weiner... (none / 0) (#14)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:28:10 PM EST
    I forgot about the bell of the elevator at the end of that episode, repeated in the meditation bell at the end of the series finale.

    Parent
    I would also (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:33:54 PM EST
    Love t see Louie win.

    Parent
    He seems to be (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:30:56 PM EST
    The odds on bet.

    I would love to see Tyrion win.  And I have to admit if I was picking winners it would be Saul (Bob Odenkirk) sorry.  But I'm not expecting an upset.

    I think no one has ever deserved it more than Tatyana.   But I'm a realist.  I expect the MM nominee to take it.

    Parent

    I think it will be a Tatiana v Taraji showdown (none / 0) (#19)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:40:10 PM EST
    I have seen neither show, so I can't predict.

    I love Dinklage, but he was not in it that much this season plus he already has an Emmy...and Ben Mendelson was so great in Bloodline, I have to pick him, except possibly not enough people saw that show.

    Link to nominees

    Parent

    You really should try Orphan Black (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:47:55 PM EST
    From the beginning.  For a person to make you forget week after week they are playing 12 different characters is truly an amazing feat

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 05:09:45 PM EST
    Viola Davis is in there.  Always happy to see her win anything.

    Parent
    Ridley Scott's bible epic is on HBO tonight (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 05:11:17 PM EST
    Sort of looking forward to that.

    Parent
    Exodus? Funny, I just turned on the TV and it is (none / 0) (#27)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 08:19:08 PM EST
    on...was wondering if it was supposed to be funny...because it kind of is...

    Parent
    Are you talking about the guy with (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 09:00:37 PM EST
    The Scottish accent?

    wtf

    Parent

    What a strange thing that was (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 07:04:52 AM EST
    I didn't pay much attention to that when it came out.  Not my, um, genre.  But what was the point, anyone?  Did any reader like this silly mess.
    I actually loved Noah.   Like it or not there was a reason for its existence.  But this?  I was sort of interested for the effects.  I mean without effects what's the point.  At least afaiac.  John Turturo as a living God.  Really.

    And God as an annoying child.  Really.

    The burning bush literally made me choke.  

    Sigorney Weaver is a great actor.  But man.  She was laughing all the way to the bank on this one.  

    Anyway.  One mans opinion.


    Parent

    At the point I turned it on it was in the middle (none / 0) (#49)
    by ruffian on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 10:25:23 AM EST
    of the scene where Pharoah was discussing problems in his construction projects. The dialog sounded lifted from a present time show, like the Sopranos. It honestly made me laugh, like a Monty Python movie. Life of Ramses.

    Probably the writers were torn between making it sound modern and just going with the traditional biblical epic style language. Came out someplace in the middle.

    Then yes, all the mixed accents...what an unholy mess! The burning bush and the child God were definitely a highlight. Another highlight - Moses's 'never doubt yourself' little speech to his son, straight out of an after school special. Christian Bale did sell it though, I'll give him that. I kept watching for a while to see who Aaaron Paul was playing...didn't last very long before falling asleep, and never saw him.

    Parent

    AP was Joshua (none / 0) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 12:28:57 PM EST
    Oh, and the coming of the "darkness". When the first borns were taken.

    I couldn't decide if it was Passover or Independence Day.

    Parent

    "after school specials" (none / 0) (#63)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 02:41:43 PM EST
    95% of american tv is like that: homilies and hokum.  half the dialogue is nothing more than lectures delivered in the voice of the actors.  
    video socialization.  herding into groupthink.  


    Parent
    And for the record (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 04:52:19 PM EST
    She was talking about a very big budget Hollywood movie.   Not tv.  

    Holly wood movies have become the home of after school specials.  The best stuff and the best work has now moved to "tv"

    Parent

    I believe this was true once (none / 0) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 04:49:50 PM EST
    And probably is still true for network fare.  But there is a lot of very very good stuff up for awards tonight.  I believe we are in a new golden age of TV.  Is there stupid crap?  Sure there is.  But there is a lot of great work people have every right t be proud of.

    Parent
    Since you're in an argumentative mood... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 09:19:43 PM EST
    here's something that just now popped up on google news.   How Star Trek Explains The Decline Of Liberalism (The development of Star Trek's moral and political tone over 50 years traces the strange decline of American liberalism since the Kennedy era.)

    I am neither advocating nor attacking the premise.  I'm posting it only because it involves TV.

    Parent

    That was silly (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 07:45:13 AM EST
    Seriously silly.  I could take it apart but I have better things to do.   No offense.

    But again, Star Trek has not been about tv in a generation.  No pun intended.

    Parent

    On quality (none / 0) (#77)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 07:50:22 AM EST
    Since I am in an argumentative mood,  I was really happy Oilve Kitteridge did so well last night.   I was afraid it was going to just get a lot on nominations.
    Have you seen it.    It not I highly recommend it.   It's everything that's good about the industry right now.   It is entertainment for grown ups.
    And I predict it will be better than any film you have seen in a while.  


    Parent
    I did see it (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 08:29:25 PM EST
    And yes it was good art.  But dour, dour, dour....so self-consciously dour.  In your face dour.

    Parent
    Dour (none / 0) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 08:14:24 AM EST

    1    dismal, dreary, forbidding, gloomy, grim, morose, sour, sullen, unfriendly  
    2    austere, hard, inflexible, obstinate, rigid, rigorous, severe, strict, uncompromising, unyielding  

    Rather the point I believe

    Parent

    I got it (none / 0) (#121)
    by MKS on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 01:22:34 PM EST
    Probably, I don't watch 95% of TV which may (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 05:50:20 PM EST
    surprise people here!

    Howdy already said, but yes, Exodus was a major budget Hollywood production. The best TV writers working today turn out 100% better writing every episode of a 10-12 episode season than those writers did for one 2-3 hour movie.

    Parent

    I forgot about Jonathan Banks (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 05:45:39 PM EST
    I think maybe I'm switching.  I hope Mike wins.

    Parent
    That is a really tough category (none / 0) (#28)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 08:23:47 PM EST
    But I gotta stick with Ben Mendelsohn...have you seen that show? He is so creepy yet charming...it is an insanely high degree of difficulty.

    Parent
    I can't (none / 0) (#68)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 04:42:25 PM EST
    help but root for Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

    Parent
    Why try? (none / 0) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 04:46:56 PM EST
    She is very good.  

    Parent
    The Mountain awakens? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 11:06:29 AM EST
    In terms of sheer size and bulk, our looming neighbor Mauna Loa is the largest single mountain on the face of the earth, and comprises well over half the surface area of the island of Hawaii itself.

    Mauna Loa is also an active shield volcano that may be starting to stir again, with a rapid-fire series of earthquakes beneath its summit (13,695 ft. elevation) prompting the U.S. Geological survey to upgrade its alert level this week to advisory status.

    Mauna Loa's eruptions are notable for the prodigious amounts of fast-flowing pahoehoe lava spewed from its Mokuʻāweoweo Caldera at the summit. The last such event occurred in March 1984, with its lava flows eventually reaching within five miles of Hilo's outskirts by the time the eruption ended three weeks later.

    But as far as actual danger to Big Island residents, the biggest threat posed by Mauna Loa is likely its occasionally violent earthquakes, and the local tsunamis which can accompany them. The last such temblor took place on November 29, 1975 and measured 7.7 on the Richter scale. The one which occurred on April 4, 1868 was even bigger and took 77 lives; geologists have since estimated its magnitude at anywhere from 7.9 to 8.6 on the Richter scale.

    Aloha.

    Donald: Political topic (none / 0) (#5)
    by christinep on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 02:19:51 PM EST
    Given your background in the workings of politics on different levels, I'm wondering if you have an opinion about the Wall Street Journal story referenced above by lentinel? And, the follow-ons?

    While I definitely understand that "all will be revealed in due time," it is quite fascinating for now that the further right news media seems to be purveying the story first? Pushing a wedge or coincidence? (My comment above in response to lentinel's comment shows that I took the bait enough to do a quick search about the would-be actors. I hate when I get impatient ... but, first I chortled, then thought a wee bit, then googled a bit more.)

    Thanks for any thoughts on this one ....

    Parent

    My opinion on the story is that ... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 02:56:40 PM EST
    ... given that the Wall Street Journal is owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., its political "coverage" should probably be taken with a few grains of salt, a slice of lime and a shot of Cuervo.

    One of these days, perhaps the rest of the country will finally wake up and realize that Murdoch's minions don't report the news, as much as they spin it like a Cessna propeller and / or create it out of whole cloth.

    So, yes, a healthy dose of skepticism is clearly warranted here. It's like these people didn't even bother to watch Joe Biden on Stephen Colbert's show last week. I don't think it's very likely that he'll run and anyway, it would be a fool's errand if he did.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The messenger (none / 0) (#32)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 06:27:41 AM EST
    may be flawed.
    Murdock is a tyrant.
    Huffpo has a tabloid agenda.

    However, I saw an interview with Biden on Colbert, as well as some other footage of Biden at some sort of rally, and he certainly sounds like someone considering running.

    A disaster in the making.

    Parent

    Your tendency to see things (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 06:55:00 AM EST
    In the darkest terms is endearing.  I really mean that.  And I believe it is a symptom of great empathy and a good sole.

    But I don't think this is a problem.   If it's a disaster it will, IMO, be mostly a disaster for him.  If he runs he will lose.   Personally I don't care if he runs or not.  But I do wish he would cut the drama and get on with it or just shut up.

    But I don't think any great or serious outcomes hinges on any decision he makes.

    Parent

    One result (none / 0) (#35)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 08:11:38 AM EST
    of his equivocation, in my opinion, is that it is not good for HRC's fortunes at the moment.

    Biden's possible entry, and whatever enthusiasm it seems to engender (witness the reception at the Colbert show - JOE JOE JOE JOE) seems to me to be related to the slipping poll numbers of HRC - and his fiddling around the question only cements doubts about the inevitability of her getting the nomination, and by extension, seems to reinforce the arguments against her - lack of authenticity, emails etc. (In my opinion...)

    Personally, I am for Sanders.

    So for me, the prospective sinking of her candidacy is not particularly "dark".

    The "dark" part, is what appears to me to be the machinations of the Democratic Party insiders - looking for an establishment figure to present to us in 2016.

    I do not share your certainty that if Biden were to throw his helmet into the ring against HRC and Sanders that he would lose - although I personally hope you are right.


    Parent

    I guess I'm confused (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 09:03:10 AM EST
    If you are for Sanders why do you care about Hillary's fortunes?

    Fwiw it won't be "party insiders" who make Hilkary the nominee if Biden runs for a forth time or not.  It will be voters.

    Parent

    It is true (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 11:31:32 AM EST
    that I don't really care about Hillary's fortunes.
    I have become completely discouraged regarding her.

    What this whole thing --- the procrastination by Biden, his going on talkshows and addressing events - means to me is that he either has zero loyalty to his "friend" Hillary, or he perceives himself as the establishment figure that can rescue the Democratic party from going down to defeat with a "socialist" at the helm.

    I do sense that the party insiders - contributors, lobbyists etc. are similar concerned about the party going what they perceive as left - and what I perceive at toward the ideals of the Democratic party before Clinton (Bill) drove it rightward. (imo)

    Parent

    me, me, me..... (none / 0) (#51)
    by NYShooter on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 11:50:41 AM EST
    I've got my hand up.

    The answer is, "B," establishment figure, rescue the Party.

    Just my opinion, but I think Joe is truly concerned that Hillary may go down, and that Bernie is unelectable.

    That would leave an unacceptably large opening for the other side.

    Parent

    I agree about "B" (none / 0) (#53)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 12:12:11 PM EST
    What I would add, though, is that his going around on talk-shows - being more public than I remember him being in years - confirms the perception of a failing bid by Hillary - and could probably help to assure it.

    So he may be perceived as a rescuer, but I see him as a stabber-in-the-back of his struggling "friend".

    Another feather in the cap of this gargoyle.


    Parent

    Some think it might also (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:04:14 PM EST
    Be because of Sanders conscientious objector problem knocking him out early. Republicans won't be bringing it up though because they want to run against that.

    Parent
    Trump (none / 0) (#60)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:49:09 PM EST
    also said that he avoided military service because he wasn't a "big fan" of the Vietnam War...

    So if he's the nominee, it would be a distinction without much of a difference to try to contrast that with the actions of a conscientious objector.

    Parent

    Big difference between deferments (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 03:45:30 PM EST
    And registering as a conscientious objector.  If it were Trump running against Sanders perhaps less of a problem unless Trump walks back his statement and claims he misspoke. Anyone else running against Sanders though, and it is crippling.

    It's okay to have not served because you were in college or you got a physician to sign off you were physically unfit.  Those things a majority of those who vote will give you a pass on.

    Parent

    I would guess (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 04:39:32 PM EST
    that applying for conscientious objector status would take more courage than avoiding service by seeking deferments.

    But the motivation is the same.

    Neither of them wanted to serve in Vietnam.

    And I don't blame them.
    It was blot on our nation's history - and we have yet to come to terms with it.

    Trump has said what he said too many times to claim he misspoke. Besides, I think he means what he said - and I'm glad he said it.

    The reporters to whom he expressed it had no comeback - because really, there is no comeback.

    Were Sanders conscientious objector status to become an issue - a challenge from the super-patriotic right - I would personally welcome it and predict that Sanders would make mincemeat out of those who would try to challenge his integrity on this issue.

    To further expand - the Vietnam war was started on a lie - that we had been attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. Johnson got his Gulf of Tonkin resolution - and we lost 50,000 people. 50,000!

    If we had taken that in - instead of allowing our "leaders" to sweep the origins of that war under the rug, waving the flag and exhorting us to "support our boys" while they sent them out to be killed - maybe Bush wouldn't have been able to slip his ignominious Iraq War Resolution through the congress so easily.

    We did not learn from history - so we repeated it.

    Parent

    You are leaving off the part (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 08:40:01 AM EST
    Where Sanders claimed he could not participate in war in any way, that is what a conscientious objector is. You don't get to pick your wars, and as I stated earlier soldiers who refused to deploy to Iraq because they did not agree with the war went to prison. A conscientious objector is someone completely against the very concept of war, they cannot support it in any way. They can't even vote for war funding.

    As a Senator Sanders voted to send OTHER people to war and he voted funding for wars. He was the Senator who killed the debate on building the F-35. This is an enormous problem that isn't going to go away. And the Republicans really would like to run against someone this crippled. I understand that the most left in their beliefs want to see no problem here getting him elected in the general, but this problem really is just about insurmountable when it comes to being able to defend him enough to get him elected.

    Parent

    Sorry, as a congressman he voted (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 09:43:43 AM EST
    To send others to war.

    Parent
    Sanders (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 01:58:15 PM EST
    wanted to avoid going to fight in Vietnam, and applied for the status of a conscientious objector.

    I think you are being too literal.
    I think one can choose ones war.
    In fact, I think one has a moral obligation to do so.

    The Vietnam war was immoral and bogus - and he had the courage to oppose it. He has nothing to apologize for.

    If he later, as a representative, voted for funding some other conflict, it is apples and oranges to condemn him since he might well have believed in the conflict for which he voted funding.

    The feeling I get from what you wrote is that you would condemn him as a hypocrite because he opposed the war in Vietnam, but did vote for funding for Afghanistan. The difference was, that in the former, we were not attacked, and in the second, we had reason to believe we were.

    I think you are making a leap to say that applying as a conscientious objector in the 1960s - refusing to kill innocent Vietnamese civilians - dumping agent orange on them - burning their villages and their skin - people who had done nothing to us whatsoever - is the equivalent of being against any war at any time for any reason.


     As a congressman and later senator, Sanders has rarely voted to authorize the use of force.

    In 1991, he stood in opposition to the first Gulf War, voting against military involvement in the country even after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. "I think we could've gotten Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait in a way that did not require a war," he told ABC's Martha Raddatz Sunday on "This Week," arguing that with the world in agreement, other options were available, including sanctions.

    After the terrorist attacks on 9/11, Sanders did vote in favor of a military response in Afghanistan. But Sanders said the use of force, in his opinion, is not only permissible in response to an attack.

    "I believe that the United States should have the strongest military in the world. We should be working with other countries in coalition. And when people threaten the United States or threaten our allies, or commit genocide, the United States, with other countries, should be prepared to act militarily," he continued.


    I am in favor of people who can make this distinction.

    If you think his pacifism in the 60s disqualifies him from the office of the presidency, so be it.

    However, I am on the opposite side of that point of view.

    Parent

    No party base can carry the entire vote (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 02:50:09 PM EST
    For presidency. And a majority of Americans want something done about ISIS, so use of military is in the forefront of issues. Based on what happened to Kerry, I doubt Sanders is electable.

    Parent
    I'm not sure Kerry is a good comparison (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by CST on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 03:41:08 PM EST
    Very very different atmosphere.  That was back in the day when if you didn't support Iraq you were branded an anti-American traitor.  Freedom Fries were an actual thing.  Today not even most Republicans want to go to war.

    I think Sanders electability depends a lot on who he ends up facing.  And it may hurt him, but it won't be like the John Kerry scenario.  The war drum has been beaten to death.  At least for now.

    Parent

    We have troops all over the world (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 05:00:20 PM EST
    Right now and the ISIS refugee problem leading us into confrontation. A few soldiers who did refuse deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan did avoid going to Leavenworth, but most did not. And they went to prison claiming to be conscientious objectors but that was legally questioned because some of them had recently deployed...or why even become a soldier if war is not part of your belief system. These people went to prison in the last 10 yrs for "using" conscientious objector status in order to avoid deployment. The status is only granted for deeply deeply core of your soul held anti-war beliefs. If you think an enormous crap storm of giant proportions won't be grown out of a Sanders nomination after he himself claimed that status during a draft...and then later voted to send others to war, I really think you are kidding yourself.

    Parent
    I think it's going to come down to (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 06:33:57 AM EST
    picking your crap storm, deciding which ones you can win, because as sure as we're sitting here typing these comments, some Republican somewhere is dreaming them up for every issue you can think of, and some you haven't because some GOP consultant will have to make it up out of nothing: it's what they do, it's how they campaign.

    I look for "conscientious objector" to become the equivalent of "traitor" in the GOP lexicon, but only as it applies to people like Sanders - we will get many examples of "real" COs, right?

    Honestly, if Dick Cheney and his deferments are acceptable to the warmongers, I think the arguments against Sanders are meaningless - or should be.

    Sanders at least has other redeeming qualities, which is a lot more than one can say about any of the current crop of GOP contenders.

    Good God, I just am hating all of this.

    Parent

    Speaking for myself only (none / 0) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 08:32:49 AM EST
    All of Clinton's crap storms have been stormed. And she's surviving. But most of them are older than my grandchildren, no juice anymore in them.  

    I can't with confidence say Bernie's CO crap storm is survivable. It should have been brought out and addressed much earlier. A Democrat Vietnam Vet should not have had to "tattle".

    It's a very big ethical departure to apply for CO status and then turn around and vote for a war, leave Maxine Waters alone on her Afghanistan stance, and consistently vote for Pentagon and war funding. It's fresh meat, really fresh, really meaty. They've got nothing fresh and meaty on Clinton.

    I was prepared to help Bernie fight his way through the whole socialism thing if he won the nomination. But socialist and the CO ethical departure (much bigger than anything they had on Kerry), I'm seeing insurmountable, exhaustion. These challenges need to receive coverage now so this baggage becomes old...and not fresh. But it's getting no coverage yet from what I can tell.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 05:12:14 PM EST
    that Kerry lost because he ran a god-awful campaign.

    I think all he needed to do to have defeated Bush was for his campaign to make an ad showing Bush joking, clowning, about them finding no wmds? No, not here, No not here..." at the press corps dinner.. LINK
    (At 5:05)
    And run on the split screen the reality of what he had done to our soldiers - not to mention the devastation of Iraq and the slaughter of thousands of its civilians.

    What I'm saying is that Kerry did not confront Bush about the lies he laid upon us to draw us into an unnecessary war. The utter incompetence of Bush and his administration. Not to mention Bush's having ignored a clear warning that OBL was poised to attack.

    If ever there were someone ripe to be thrown out of office it was Bush. And Kerry couldn't say sh-t...

    And Kerry's running mate - Edwards? Are you kidding?

    No guts. No integrity.
    Kerry, presumably intelligent, lost to a proven fraudster. A con-man. An idiot.

    Personally, and this is just me, I don't think that the ISIS fight is our fight. We are involving ourselves - because we are there - because Bush sent us there. A swamp. ISIS had no bone to pick with us - as Jeralyn has pointed out many times - until we put a target on our own backs.

    We need to focus on the deteriorating conditions here at home in my opinion.

    I am not looking for a warrior.
    I'm looking for someone whose first priority is improving the conditions under which we are living - instead of committing more and more of our resources to war over (I know it's a cliché) OIL!

    You and I have talked about this before.
    I believe that for you there is a humanitarian rationale for our bombing campaigns against ISIS. But I just can't buy it.
    There are humanitarian crises all over the globe - but it just so happens that the ones we are most heavily invested in are in oil rich countries and there is money to be made.

    I think that Sanders could be a formidable candidate.
    I look forward to the debates - and we'll see what he's made of.

    Parent

    United States soldiers in the past 10 (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 06:04:30 PM EST
    Years who attempted to use Conscientious Objector status to avoid deploying into what they feel were unjust wars went to prison. The successful Republican funded attack ads are writing themselves on this one.

    This is baggage I didn't know Sanders was packing until last week. And it's enormous baggage.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 08:27:22 PM EST
    that if what you say is true, that US soldiers in the past 10 years who were conscientious objectors to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were sent to prison - I think it's criminal. I mean the actions of the government - initiating these grotesque wars and then putting US citizens in jail for refusing to fight them...

    I don't consider what Sanders did in the 1960s to be baggage.

    I consider it a sign of a person with a conscience - and some integrity.

    I would not be afraid of attacks by these rightwing Republicans.
    In fact, I personally would welcome them so that their hypocrisy could be put before the country - and their jingoist, naive, elitist views could be confronted and eviscerated.


    Parent

    I really don't care if you aren't afraid of being (none / 0) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 10:01:47 PM EST
    Attacked. That isn't anyone's issue but your own. And you are welcome to have it.

    The one thing this country can't afford is a Democratic nominee that can't get elected.

    Your perspective and opinion of what conscientious objector status means legally and life long is an extreme fringe opinion.

    Parent

    Now I Don't Know Much... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 11:17:15 AM EST
    ...about today's military, but in my day there were ways to get out that did not involved going to prison, the big two, sleepwalkers and declaring you were gay.  Both medical discharges.  I would assume, but do not know, that they tightened the sleep walking discharge up and being gay is no longer reason for discharge.

    The larger point here is it's not hard to get out if you want out, or rather it wasn't when I was in.  One failed drug test, gone, but that wasn't a good discharge, but better than the discharge one's gets after prison time. Other-than-honorable is way better than a dishonorable discharge.  One can be upgraded, I believe, after 6 months.

    The other point I take issue with is this statement:

    And a majority of Americans want something done about ISIS, so use of military is in the forefront of issues.

    I don't believe that to be true, and while I maybe projecting my personal beliefs on others, I think that statement needs a source, because no one I know wants to go to war in the ME.

    As far as I can tell in the republican debates, Iran seems to be their bugaboo, ISIS has not been much of an issue.  I do admit to not watching them, but I do read the highlights, or rather, the lowlights, and ISIS doesn't, at least to me, seem to be the bugaboo that you are making it out to be.

    Parent

    Numerous polls since January Scott (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 11:54:42 AM EST
    Have revealed a majority want Obama "to do something militarily" about ISIS. With a quick google this is the most recent news I found. But I track all that stuff closely.

    Getting out of deploying by claiming sleep walking? I'm having a really hard time just not dissing the ever loving hell out of you here. We were forcing soldiers with SERIOUS health issues to deploy.

    Remember the Special Forces soldier who got drunk in Afghanistan, grabbed night vision, and walked out of camp to an Afghan village and went on a murder spree? He and his family did everything in their power to stop his re-deployment. Absolutely no luck. He was suffering from traumatic brain injury and PTSD. The group of soldiers who had lost their minds in Afghanistan and were exposed by Rolling Stone, basically the same story. They were known to be suffering from PTSD, two of them suffering IED traumatic brain injury also, they were daily taking drugs that the military was prescribing them that was astonishing...Ambien, lithium, Trazadone, Amitriptaline, Zoloft, Prozac. They left the states damaged, broken, and swam in a soup of drugs just trying to be alive. Just a small sliver of the story too.

    It is often spoken of, this disconnect between the active duty and civilians in the past decade, but wow...just wow. I know everyone has read about what the troops were going through...trying to survive, but can that all be that conveniently forgotten, dismissed?

    It shocks me to the bone. No Scott, nobody got to stay home because they were a sleep walker. Entire units were sleep walking, because they could no longer and probably still can't sleep like everyone else.


    Parent

    That Poll Surprises Me... (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 12:46:59 PM EST
    ...and I am not scared to admit that I am wrong.  Me, no way do I want anyone to do anything in the ME.  We can't fix it, we tried and only made it worse, going back to the meat grinder would only prove we are the people Einstein was talking about in regards to expecting a different result, this time.

    I did mention that I was talking about my days, not current, right.  FWIW, I think the sleeping walking thing is probably taking a little differently on a ship.

    I don't believe that rigid system of the military cannot be gamed, it was the one thing that I actually liked about the military, it was so rigid that it was easy to find cracks, they were everywhere.  

    You are basically saying that they can do anything with no consequences here or there.  I don't believe that for a minute, nor do I think your examples are standard operating procedure as you are implying they are.

    Can members of the military take drugs ?  What are the consequences of testing positive for cocaine ?

    I was being serious and honest, and yet you felt the need to take swipes at me.  That is the go to move over at Fox, take someone who has never served, label them an expert, and dismiss anyone who disagrees with them.  For someone who claims to love the military you don't really respect people who have served.

    Parent

    Okay, yeah, sleepwalking on a ship (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 01:16:54 PM EST
    Is a significant risk :) Unless it is a cruise ship, then it's capitalism :)

    What exactly isn't standard operating procedure? They write waivers when they are stressed. Remember when you couldn't have a criminal record to get in? They waivered that during the Iraq/Afghan wars peak. They wavered all those drugs too. They had to waiver pilots and allow them to take Trazadone and Zoloft or they would have had no pilots to deploy. I know, imagine what the FAA would say. But it's the military and they can do that and they did do that. They are pulling those waivers now in the drawdawn. The Army Surgeon General is pulling scripts for Ambien and Lunesta now too for everyone, including dependents so the dependents won't give their script to the soldier. If you have to use those things to sleep now they are forcing you out. I'm guessing the standard military piss test doesn't cover Ambien or Lunesta. But everyone was and has been taking all that Scott and getting waivered by the flight surgeons and doctors. They had to.

    What was often done when a soldier brought up being gay or a family stressor that should delay deployment, what they did and still do is tell you to obey your deployment order and the rest will be worked out later. For those declaring they were gay before DADT was lifted, that meant being kicked out when the deployment was over. You still deployed though. It didn't hold up your deployment, just ensured your dishonorable discharge for violating DADT.

    Parent

    Thanks... (none / 0) (#118)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 11:19:23 AM EST
    ...as that is not what I experienced.  It seemed like they were just waiting to toss people out, which worked well for people with buyers remorse, and there were a lot of them.

    I remember two 53's full of gay people that were caught in a huge sweep, but the problem was I knew several of those guys were not gay, maybe bi, but guys I knew had slept with women.  Keep in mind, there were twice as many Jar Heads on my ship than Sailors, but they waived off those 53's with pink scarves.  Even at the time I wondered were all these marines got pink scarves.

    Sleep walkers, I would say around 6 from my department alone, I wouldn't call it a huge problem, but I would also say that people who had issues, who hated being there, were more likely to sleepwalk.  But the big one, drugs, I would guess 10% of my department was lost to failed drug tests.  Department was maybe 100 people, but over three years probably 200 different faces.  At least 20 gone because of drugs.

    Then you add in the people who just never returned to the ship or deserted at home, and of course the people that were straight up kicked out because they were deemed unfit, and we really cycled through a lot of people.

    Its really is hard for me to imagine them locking everyone down, that would be horrible.  When I was nearing release, 3 other guys had the same date in my department, they asked us if we wanted to go into the reserves, everyone said 'hell no'.  I can't imagine them saying, nope, you are going into the reserves and we are calling you back, like yesterday.

    I signed up for 3 active/3 active reserves/2 inactive reserves.  I did 3 active/5 inactive reserves, which basically means you have to let them know where you live.

    The build-up to war is also surprising in that, literally, no one is talking about it on the campaign trail.  ISIS is a footnote, they all dislike them, but no one is campaigning on going to war, which apparently I am viewing as no one wants to.  At this point, its out of my hands, I am going to vote HRC or Bernie most likely.  They are going to force me to help fund, and we will do what we do best, make the situation worse while simultaneously making the world a less safe place.

    It is beyond disappointing to to read the majority of Americans have not learned any lessons from Afghanistan or Iran.

    Parent

    My husband just said that maybe what (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 02:51:15 PM EST
    You are referring to is fighting ISIS, that's what they can't do if the pronoun people just want to. How to break this to you? The Air Force started deploying for this fight six months ago. The pronoun people are doing it. It's going down. If activists want to protest this, do it now. But what is going to happen is what always happens, and the left will wake up like someone slapped them when the fight is already on, and then protest. Too late. The gears of war already turned.

    Parent
    And Reservists (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 12:17:20 PM EST
    They called up a huge chunk of Reservists for the Iraq War, as was their legal right. There was no train up though, and many of them were approaching 50.

    One deployed with my husband's company, 2 weeks in Iraq and under the stress and the heat he was unaccustomed to, he dropped dead from a heart attack. Lost many Reservists in that age range at the start in that repeating story.

    Parent

    Militarytracy: "The one thing this country can't afford is a Democratic nominee that can't get elected."

    ... and not merely reactive. And the best way to innoculate Sen. Sanders and the party itself from any forthcoming false equivalence of conscientious objection as a form of treason, is to preemptively nail Republicans foursquare on the charge of their own chickenhawkery and duplicity.

    It's been my experience that most people will come to accept, however begrudging it may be, a person's stated and principled opposition to a war of choice in Vietnam.

    By the same token, most people will likely despise the hypocrisy on display from those ex post facto cheerleaders for that same war, when they learn that such men did their own level best at the time to avoid having to serve in that particular conflict.

    It's not unlike the feeling of bitter contempt that many Australians and New Zealanders nurtured for Great Britain in the wake of the disastrous Gallipoli campaign during the First World War. With the lives of tens of thousands of their young men senselessly squandered by the British High Command in a very badly conceived invasion of European Turkey, the rueful standing joke Down Under became, "England will fight to the last ANZAC." Their distaste and distrust of the Mother Country continues in varying degrees to this very day.

    I remember an op-ed by the L.A. Times' resident conservative columnist Jonah Goldberg from about ten years ago, a time when U.S. forces occupying Iraq were suffering increasing numbers of casualties from a steadily intensifying urban guerilla war waged against them by resistance fighters. The then 35-year-old Goldberg intimated in that column that the mounting number of American dead and wounded in Iraq were perfectly acceptable, given the Bush administration's stated goals in that country.

    The public blowback against him in both the LATimes.com's online comment section and in the print edition's Letters to the Editor section was immediate and severe. In variations, many critics asked him point blank that if he felt the Iraq War was such an honorable undertaking, why didn't he volunteer for service in Baghdad himself?

    That's how you deal with the problem posed by Bernie Sander's claim of conscientious objection during the Vietnam War. You fight their fire with some of your own. When they light a match, you burn them to a blackened crisp with a flamethrower.

    If Republicans are so goddammed critical of Sen. Sanders' principled stand against that conflict, well, where were they during that time, exactly? Dick Cheney not only garnered five deferments from the draft, he also wracked up several DUIs as well, IIRC. And for all the hullabaloo over the 60 Minutes story about George W. Bush's Texas Air Guard duty, we STILL don't really know where he was during that entire year prior to his discharge. Because wherever it was, it certainly wasn't where he was supposed to be, which was in Montgomery, AL.

    So, given their collective and individual records and results, I'd offer that we trust the Republicans' collective judgment on matters of foreign affairs and national security simply at our country's own imminent peril. Their public conduct is a perpetual exercise in willful self-delusion and freestyle deceit.

    That's the message which needs to prevail here.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    That's one way to look at it (none / 0) (#56)
    by NYShooter on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:06:44 PM EST
    but, let's be fair to the "dark one;" how else can he gauge what his chances are if he doesn't throw himself out there, and witness the feedback?

    And, c'mon, Hillary's a big girl. I doubt very much that she's unduly troubled by this. She knows it's politics, and she'd, undoubtedly do the same thing, positions reversed.

    Plus, she also knows that after her nomination is assured, Biden will be there for her, hammer & tong in hand.

    Parent

    But he's (none / 0) (#61)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:59:30 PM EST
    not really throwing himself out there... Just inferring that he might... it's what Beau would want... and the rest...

    He's appearing in somewhat controlled environments - in which JOE JOE JOE JOE can predictably be heard and broadcast to us plebes.

    It seems to be as if he is engaged in building support, rather than trying to gauge it.

    Personally, I don't know why HRC would not be troubled by the JOE phenomenon because it does make it appear as if she is going down and the party needs a savior. A mansavior.

    Of course, if she get the nomination, Biden and the rest will support her... but at the moment Biden seems to me to be out to undermine her - and that goes for Obama as well -- who felt compelled to tell us how terrific Biden would be as president.

    Phooey.

    Parent

    I think you were right (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 02:41:27 PM EST
    A ways back.

    You need a drink.

    Parent

    What, Clinton's not establishment enough? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Anne on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:33:04 PM EST
    Seems to me that the lesson thus far is that there's a pretty significant segment of the electorate that's had it with establishment figures, and I don't believe that Hillary is anywhere near enough damaged - if she's really even damaged at all - to warrant an arguably more establishment candidate to step in.  One with plenty of baggage that the media will be only too happy to unpack for him.

    I'm sorry, but with Biden already having twice mounted a presidential run - and failed quite convincingly, it seems to me that this is way more about vanity than it is about any real, deep concern about Clinton not being able to hang in.

    Parent

    Don't read more into (none / 0) (#64)
    by NYShooter on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 02:49:38 PM EST
    my comment than what I wrote.

    We're all guessing, and my post was simply my 2 cent's worth.

    Parent

    While it's hard to deny that (none / 0) (#41)
    by Anne on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 09:39:31 AM EST
    the noise about Biden has eaten into Clinton's numbers, I don't see any real groundswell of support for Biden to run.  What it has seemed to have done is energize Clinton supporters, and maybe between Biden and the faux e-mail mess, it's lit a fire under her, as well.

    I don't think Biden's going to run.  I think the media is driving most of this, in their ever-constant need for drama, and their belief that it's up to them to pick the candidates.  

    Not really sure what Biden's getting out of this, though; if he's not going to run, his equivocation and flirting is hurting, not helping, the goal to elect a Democrat.  If he is going to run, though, let him get out there, let's see him handle some challenge - because as touching as it is, he's not going to get a pass from the media because his son died of a brain tumor, and his first wife and child were killed in a car accident.

    No, if he announces, what do you think the over/under is on when the media mentions, (1) the plagiarism, (2) his previous failed attempts at the WH, (3) Anita Hill, (4) his close relationship with the TBTF banks and credit card companies - to name a few?  Oh, and don't forget how much fun the media can have speculating and rumor-mongering over whether Obama's going to support his VP over his former Secretary of State, and how hard they will work at ginning up division within the ranks.

    Pretty sure they can't wait to have at him - unless they think they can use him to keep up their never-ending quest to "get" Clinton.  Oh, what a dilemma!

    I think if he's going to run, he has to make that decision in time to participate in the first debate, which in October 13th; I don't see him getting in after that, unless he wants more crap about the timing.

    Guess we'll see soon enough.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#52)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 11:56:25 AM EST
    with everything you wrote about Biden going down like a rock if he did announce. You made me think that I, for one, might find  his candidacy worthwhile so that he could get the comeuppance he so richly deserves for his treatment of Anita Hill - and the resulting disaster of the Clarence Thomas lifetime appointment at the SCOTUS. I would certainly welcome that.

    He did, by the way, bring up Beau in his interview with Colbert. He got "emotional", but from my jaded perspective, it came across as pure pandering. I cant figure why he would bring Beau up at all. It would seem to me to be a very private matter that one would try to keep private at all costs... unless one were considering a run. Just my opinion.

    I am really enjoying the Markopolos book on Madoff. He is a very good writer - and even though I can't really grasp all the allusions to the jargon of the investment world, the words just keep flowing and I get a good sense of the meaning of what he is expressing. As you said, it is both riveting and jarring.

    One thing which fascinates me is the phenomenon of people knowing about something, yet allowing themselves to not know at the same time. If I may grind a bit on an ax, it reminds me of the Obama phenomenon - when despite all his statements and actions to the contrary, people were still eager to believe that he was anti-war and socially progressive.

    Parent

    HRC numbers rising against Sanders (none / 0) (#78)
    by jbindc on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 08:16:50 AM EST
    If Biden stays out

    If this keeps up, he's not going to get in.

    Parent

    For a minute (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 03:54:49 PM EST
    I thought this was a game of thrones comment.

    Parent
    Ohio State's giving 35 to Northern Illinois? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 03:05:32 PM EST
    I'd take NIU. The Huskies are hardly a doormat. In fact, they're up 7-3 on the Buckeyes with 5:00 to go in the 1st quarter.

    HALF: No. Illinois 10, Ohio St. 10. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:07:07 PM EST
    Word to the oddsmakers: the Buckeyes' schedule says they're playing NORTHERN Illinois this week, not Illinois.

    Parent
    7:46 4Q: Ohio St. 20, No. Illinois 13. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 05:28:30 PM EST
    Right now, the difference is a pick-six for the Buckeyes. The Huskies' defense has been outstanding thus far.

    Parent
    FINAL: Ohio St. 20, No. Illinois 13 (none / 0) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 06:07:11 PM EST
    The Buckeyes' defense bails them out in the end, as Ohio State survives a spirited NIU team. The Huskies' own defensive effort forced five OSU turnovers and seven three-and-outs, holding the Buckeyes' offense to 13 points. Don't know what the oddsmakers were thinking when they set that line at 35, but there were surely a few people who made a lot of money on that game.

    Parent
    And an equal amount of money lost (none / 0) (#26)
    by CoralGables on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 06:16:54 PM EST
    Hope we don't have to explain this again :)

    Parent
    I'm aware of that. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 09:14:50 PM EST
    But those who picked Ohio State to cover the spread against the defending MAC champions -- who are likely a pretty good bet to repeat, BTW -- obviously don't pay too much actual attention to college football itself, and rely more upon so-called conventional wisdom. I saw that "OSU +35" and were I a betting man, I'd have picked Northern Illinois without a second thought.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    wasn't that (none / 0) (#48)
    by NYShooter on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 10:17:37 AM EST
    (-) Minus 35?

    Parent
    I stand corrected. ;-D (none / 0) (#57)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:29:53 PM EST
    My point is that installing one team as a 5-TD favorite is the sort of odds you offer if you think the underdog is a doormat. As I said in my initial post here during the first quarter yesterday when I questioned such judgment, NIU is no doormat, and they proved that on the field yesterday.

    Alas, even afterward, the pundits were bending over backwards to blame Ohio State's "sloppy play" for the relatively narrow margin of victory. Only a few, including the guy who called the game for ABC / ESPN, were willing to properly credit Northern Illinois with being a much better team than anyone supposedly "in the know" had initially realized. Rather, most preferred to instead blame the driver of the car in front of them, for their own failure to notice the guy on the motorcycle who was fast approaching in their rear-view mirrors.

    I'd think that Coach Urban Meyer and the rest of his OSU staff were probably not similarly blindsided by events in yesterday's game as they unfolded. They likely cautioned their own players well prior to kickoff that the NIU Huskies have averaged 11 wins per season over the last five years, and have won three of the previous four MAC championships. That's the resume of a solid and well-grounded football program, and one which certainly deserved much more respect than they got from the oddsmakers and prognosticators last week.

    That the Huskies were heretofore all but flying under the radars of the "experts," was due primarily to the deliberate choice made by those same "experts" to pay little if any attention to anything other than the self-promoting shiny objects orbiting within their own immediate vicinity.

    Just because we don't see some teams on national TV on a weekly basis, it shouldn't necessarily follow that therefore, such teams aren't very good.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    And, that's why we love the game (none / 0) (#65)
    by NYShooter on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 03:29:48 PM EST
    so much, isn't it?

    We'll never know the answer as to why the score ended the way it did. Maybe, it was, as you said, that N.I. is a much better team than it was given credit for. And, I'm sure Coach Meyer gave his boys the standard, "don't look beyond today's game" speech as all coaches do. But, they're kids, and who knows what's rattling around in their not-quite-fully-matured brains at any given moment.

    We've all been there: the Coach is giving his somber warning speech in the locker roon; the kids, meanwhile, are laughing to themselves, "yeah, yeah, yeah, let's just get out there and get this snoozer over with."

    Then they get out there, and, Bam, reality smacks them between the eyes. Yes, they were told, warned, actually. But, what didn't sink in was that this game, this snoozer for them, was life & death, Armageddon, for N.I. That's when those pudgy misfits, those mutts that don't even belong on the same field as themselves, suddenly turn into Arnold Schwarzeneggers. And, that's when they find religion, you can almost see them praying to themselves, "dear God, please, please, get us through today; I swear, I really, really do, I'll never ever be this cocky again."

    Realistically, this is a perfect example of why gamblers always lose in the long run. The game is so much more than, simply, height, weight, and speed.

    "On any given Sunday," (or, Saturday.)

    Parent

    Yes, that's exactly why we love the game. (none / 0) (#88)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 05:32:13 PM EST
    I think the Northern Illinois defensive effort last Saturday speaks for itself, holding the Buckeyes to only 13 points.

    Granted, the Ohio State offense wasn't hitting on all cylinders. But wasn't a great part of that likely due to the Huskies themselves? Those five Buckeye turnovers and seven three-and-outs didn't happen in a vacuum.

    The Buckeyes' own defense ultimately bailed the team out, because they all but shut down NIU when they had the ball, and further provided the ultimate margin of victory with that decisive pick-six.

    All told, it was an exciting defensive game between two good teams.

    Parent

    Hope many of the winning betters were (none / 0) (#45)
    by ruffian on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 10:05:30 AM EST
    from my old northern Illinois stomping ground...the area could use a cash infusion. Well done Huskies!

    Parent
    Les Merritt (no relation) (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 03:41:52 PM EST
    the Arizona shooter

    Appears able to look down a 2inch pipe with both eyes

    Cubs win again! Beat Cards 5-4. (none / 0) (#9)
    by caseyOR on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 03:45:58 PM EST
    Cubbies won yesterday. Cubbies won today. I am almost delirious with shock and surprise and joy. Solar and Bryant homered for the Cubs. It was Bryant's 25th home run. He ties the rookie home run reord and there are still games to play.

    I am giddy too! (none / 0) (#15)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:29:27 PM EST
    Heck, let's just take first place and stop worrying bout the silly wild card! Plenty of games left against the Cards to make it happen.

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    Oops, I am a week behind looking at the (none / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 04:31:26 PM EST
    schedule. can't believe Sept is almost over.

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    FINAL: Stanford 41, USC 31. (none / 0) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 19, 2015 at 10:31:59 PM EST
    With their soon to be forgotten No. 6 ranking, the Trojans appear to have been the beneficiary / victim of other people's unrealistic expectations. While they're a very decent team, they're hardly Top 10-worthy.

    Another big benefit of single payer (none / 0) (#36)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 08:49:57 AM EST
    Uh-uh. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 01:44:03 PM EST
    Even if true, that's the result of a conscious and deliberate choice by Britain's Conservatives to not properly fund NHS programs.

    It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy, and further underscores the old political adage about conservatives who first campaign for public office on the premise that government doesn't work and is incompetent, and then set about to prove that very same premise once they're elected.

    Aloha.

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    It's what happens (none / 0) (#74)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 11:19:47 PM EST
    when you put your faith in systems run by politicians. BTW, has any of the scamsters at the VA been indicted or even fired?  

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    If you wish to talk seriously about ... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 04:09:28 AM EST
    ... the efficacies of single-payer health care delivery, I'm game. But if you're just going to spew tired right-wing political clichés that constitute your own sorry effort at mental masturbation, I've clearly got better things to do. Ciao.

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    Understood (none / 0) (#81)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 09:52:50 AM EST

    The reality of the V.A. jarringly conflicts with a cherished belief in a single payer utopia. Vets waiting years for care, with some going toes up, is nothing to be concerned about, merely a talking point.

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    Funny... (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Sep 21, 2015 at 03:48:52 PM EST
    ...considering the system we had wouldn't cover veterans until they qualified for Medicare, but you were saying...

    How about the actual people getting the services decide what they want, corporate health care or government health care ?

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    For the vets who die waiting for VA service (none / 0) (#115)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 09:44:03 AM EST

    being treated as a customer to be served of a corporation would be a big step up from being treated as a cost to be avoided in the VA.

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    Funny... (none / 0) (#120)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 12:08:42 PM EST
    ...they are not customers, unless you are suggesting Vets can afford private insurance before ACA.

    I am a Vet, of a foreign war, my insurance is through my job.  Without that I would not have medical coverage without the VA.

    I am not saying its not flawed, but I think people will take flawed over none.  This idea that Corporate America is just going to insure someone because they were is the military is really funny.

    Equally funny, the idea that Corporate Insurance is flaw free, that they doesn't view their customers as 'a cost to be avoided' is hilarious.  There is an entire legal branch dedicated to suing insurance companies over the tragedies that arise from their malfeasance.

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    And who, pray tell, ... (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 04:25:13 PM EST
    ... willfully underfunded the Dept. of Veterans Affairs for years, during the same time that we were fighting two wars simultaneously in the Middle East?

    Your problem here is that you really have no standing to level such accusations, given your own party's well-documented history in having created that VA backlog in the first place.

    You're so full of partisan crap on this particular issue that it's really a waste of bandwidth to even acknowledge your presence.

    :-(

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    And yet... (none / 0) (#110)
    by CoralGables on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 09:05:09 PM EST
    I know, I know. (none / 0) (#112)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 11:59:52 PM EST
    "Please don't feed the trolls."

    Shame on me.

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    Lemme see (none / 0) (#116)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 09:55:25 AM EST
    Has not the Obama administration been running the show for the last six years?  News reports indicate he will shut down the government if congress passes a budget without money for baby butchers, but either you are mistaken about underfunding the VA or Saint Obama is satisfied with the level of service (or nonservice) as the case may be.

    Note that not a single VA employee was indicted or even fired.

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    Backlog (none / 0) (#117)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 09:59:06 AM EST
    The VA was fraudulently hiding the backlog making it appear that there was sufficient funding.

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    The things is that I think people like (none / 0) (#119)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 23, 2015 at 12:08:07 PM EST
    you aren't really concerned about VA waiting lists or lack of care - you like using the problems with the VA to support your opposition to a national single-payer system for all of us.

    But what you always fail to consider is that if we had a national system, we wouldn't need a separate one for veterans, and they could access health care in the communities in which they live, just like the rest of us.

    My husband has full VA health care; he has to travel 25 miles into Baltimore to see the doctor; in an emergency, he could go to the nearest ER, but once stabilized, he would be transferred to the VA hospital.  His life would be a lot less complicated and health care would be more convenient if he could see any doctor and go to any hospital.

    Not that he isn't getting excellent care in Baltimore - he is.  As is his friend in Minnesota.  The kind of VA care you get is, like health care in general, often a function of geography.

    We already know that single-payer systems work - they are in place around the world.  But the tendency seems to be to want to privatize VA care rather than develop one single-payer system for all Americans.  

    And the reason is what it always is: money.

    Just please stop pretending you give a rat's ass about veterans' health care; we know what your agenda is, and no one's buying it.

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    3 Post Debate Polls Out (none / 0) (#38)
    by CoralGables on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 08:57:37 AM EST
    No need to go into details.

    Trump
    Trump
    Trump

    I think Carson (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 09:15:10 AM EST
    Is a bit of an under reported story.  He is nipping at Donalds heels.  I personally find him far more frightening than Donald.   He clearly believes his own bullsh!t.

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    I think they all believe their own BS... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Anne on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 09:46:19 AM EST
    and Lord, is there ever a lot of that.

    Saw something interesting - have to think about where - about the idea to have cross-party primary debates.  Ah, here it is - Washington Monthly:

    But even more intriguing than more Democratic debates would be the potential for cross-party primary debates. It sounds like a crazy idea at first and it might be difficult to secure the cooperation of some leading candidates, but putting the leading Democratic and Republican contenders on the same stage would have upside for everyone involved. For the Clinton campaign it would give them a chance to show Hillary's debate chops by putting her directly up against leading Republican opponents, mitigating the potential damage of being upstaged by Sanders or O'Malley. For establishment Republicans it would potentially expose Trump or Carson to humiliation, allowing a more traditional candidate like Bush or Walker to shine. For base Republicans who believe forcefully in the knuckle sandwich approach to politics, it would give them the opportunity to watch their candidates go toe-to-toe with the hated Democrats; for progressive Democrats it would give Sanders and O'Malley the opportunity to hit Republicans forcefully and gain attention without committing the faux pas of launching a barrage of attacks at Clinton. And for centrists on both sides concerned about the wings of their parties, it would force a debate approach more focused on winning the general electorate than merely the party bases.

    I like the idea, but it would never happen, I don't think: too much risk of being exposed for who and what they are.

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    This has been an idea for a while (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 10:04:57 AM EST
    I think I commented about it at some point.  I like the idea.

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    Carson is more likely closing in on free fall (none / 0) (#43)
    by CoralGables on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 09:59:09 AM EST
    Hope you are right of course (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 10:06:06 AM EST
    And I tend to think you are.  Otoh,  this cycle so far......

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    The fave of the week seems to be (none / 0) (#47)
    by christinep on Sun Sep 20, 2015 at 10:09:15 AM EST
    Carly Fiorina.  According to new polls (NBC?) I heard about today on TV Sunday morning stuff.  'Looks like embellishing has worked ... for the coming week; and, it looks like Carson's demeanor is now falling.

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    Words from Pope Francis this morning (9/22) (none / 0) (#96)
    by christinep on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 11:24:26 AM EST
    Before leaving Cuba for his visit to the United States, Pope Francis talked of "a revolution of tenderness."

    Words and more/ A Revolution of Tenderness/ It fits the spirit so well, so kindly.

    "My money is on Walker" (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 11:48:05 AM EST
    Now Scott can go back to fulltime Koch-fanny smooching, busting unions, and trying to get co-eds help carry things to carry things his car..

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    Interesting (none / 0) (#105)
    by FlJoe on Tue Sep 22, 2015 at 04:40:04 PM EST
    Trump fires back at a PAC attack, lawyers probably cheaper then ad buys, is this viable strategy?

    Oops just saw it on CNN , point for Trump, club for growth responds "quit whining", another point for Trump.