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Sanders in it to win it

While the idiotic "oppo research" (no actual research involved) from David Brock and his Correct the Record organization (FTR - it was despicable and idiotic imo, which, unfortunately for Clinton, is too common in her "allies" see Davis, Lanny) has been the lead takeaway from this brouhaha, I'd like to note the Sanders response (really smart imo). From McClatchey:

“They suggested I’d be friendly with Middle East terrorist organizations, and even tried to link me to a dead communist dictator,” Sanders said in a fundraising email that criticized a super political action committee called Correct the Record, which supports Hillary Clinton. [My emphasis]

Sanders is referring to the late Hugo Chavez. Strictly speaking, Chavez was NOT a dictator, he was duly elected multiple times. But he was an authoritarian, and, imo, bad for Venezuela.

More

But politics is what it is. And Sanders' distancing himself, with some choice words, from Chavez, was smart politically.

It's the type of thing that winning a national election will require.

I've publically questioned whether Bernie is willing to do what he must to win (the use of PAC money, particularly DNC money was my main concern.)

I'd argue his response here demonstrates he is willing to do what he must to win. And that, in my opinion, is a good thing.

Bernie CAN win a general election. But there are things that must be done in order to do it.

Good to see Bernie is willing to do those things.

YMMV.

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  • Display: Sort:
    David Brock, doing his candidate (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:42:18 AM EST
    More harm than good. Hugo is the sort of thing that would cause concern for Republican voters. You could ramp up Conservative Socialism fears using Chavez, but not Liberals. Perhaps David and his tactics need to return to the Conservative battlefields.

    Seriously... (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:54:13 AM EST
    red-baiting in a Democratic Primary?  What year is this, 1955?

    Friends like these do Clinton no favors in regards to public opinion, it just feeds the dirty trickster/shady/crooked meme.  Not to mention, indicates panic in Clintonville.

    I know technically the candidates can't stop it, but I would think a few well placed phone calls easily could put a stop to this nonsense.

    Parent

    Some well placed somethings :) (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 10:12:54 AM EST
    Oh Boy, reading this at Orange (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:05:57 AM EST
    Adam B says that this particular PAC is coordinating with the Clinton campaign via a loophole in the law.

    If that's factual, BAD MOVE HILLARY! BAD MOVE!

    Parent

    I think she's getting terrible advice, (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:19:05 AM EST
    again, and I don't really understand why she doesn't realize this.

    I think it's a terrible idea to go after Sanders this way, and it calls into question the sincerity of the populist approach she started off with.

    I don't get it, I really don't.

    Parent

    Me neither. Really disappointing to me (none / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    I'm glad BTD thinks Sanders could win a general election.

    Parent
    Strike the hammer... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:52:58 AM EST
    while the iron is hot...just look at that GOP clown car!  Abbie Hoffman could win the general in 2016 this year, this presidential is a unique opportunity to forget the Republican-lite and go for the gusto imo.

    Parent
    Sanders belonged to (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:58:49 PM EST
    SNCC.  Think John Kerry and Bill Ayres.

    Parent
    It seems very obvious to me given (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:50:43 AM EST
    The momentum of candidates Sanders and Trump that the entire country is sick of past political headgames. Sadly, what the party bases consider truthful alternative candidates share no character similarities, but obviously EVERYONE is sick of certain types of tactics. I don't think the Democratic base has an ounce of patience for this BS. I know I don't.

    What in the hell is Clinton doing?

    Parent

    Planning to be spontaneous, I think. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:07:55 PM EST
    And I believe people are up-to-here with being played that way.

    Parent
    Let's please not get ahead of ourselves, ... (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:32:41 PM EST
    Militarytracy: "What in the hell is Clinton doing?"

    ... and simply assume that Mrs. Clinton herself had anything to do with this. I have no idea what Adam B. actually said in his post because you didn't provide a link, and when I searched "Orange Adam B" on Google, one item was a divorced and lonely man who said he was perusing on the online singles scene for the very first time. (Yeah, sure, I bet.) Anyway, back to my original point, one blog post offering speculative hearsay is not enough to warrant such an assumption.

    Suffice to say that the world is full of zealots, political and otherwise, and while I like David Brock, I'm also acutely aware that he's one of them. I've worked on enough campaigns in my own lifetime, to realize how easy it is for some overenthusiastic supporters to wander off the reservation in belief that they're somehow helping their candidate or doing him / her a favor, when what they're doing is actually counterproductive.

    That said, it's also been my experience that circular firing squads do nothing to advance the cause, and it would therefore be in Mrs. Clinton's best interest to publicly distance herself from and even repudiate this particular tactic of Brock and Correct the Record in taking aim at Sen. Bernie Sanders. There's absolutely no reason or need to go negative on a fellow Democratic candidate like that.

    I'd like to think that when all is said and done, Democrats are all on the same team. And while I've already pledged my support to Mrs. Clinton in the primary, I have every intention of supporting Sen. Sanders to my utmost abilities should he ultimately become our Democratic Party nominee.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Thank you Donald (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:36:18 PM EST
    She is responsible for her campaign (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:42:15 PM EST
    And all that it collaborates with Donald. The buck stops with her on this and if she disagrees about that, I'm not sure she can handle a Presidency. JMO

    Both Adam B and BTD seemed quite aware of the PAC coordinating with the Hillary campaign and the legal loophole being used.

    Adam B isn't exactly known for spreading disinformation, at least not that I'm aware of.

    Parent

    Right here my man (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:55:53 PM EST
    NYTimes .

    I know they aren't completely trustworthy these days, but are they just flat out lying in this story? It's an old campaign factoid that only a true junkie would know :)

    For me, Clinton is completely responsible for this now. BTD seems to think she'll have a hard time splitting the sheets with Brock because he's a vindictive snake. She's responsible though or how can I turn a DOJ, EPA, DOD, CIA over to her care? If you can't rein in your PAC coordination that some are claiming is already an unethical connection to a PAC...how can you be President?

    Parent

    If that does not describe the mess that is (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:19:50 PM EST
    the post Citizens United world, I don't know what does. So Brock has one PAC that is allowed to coordinate with the Clinton Campaign, and another one that is not....certainly no room for unethical conduct THERE.

    what a mess.

    Parent

    Who would want (none / 0) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:25:59 PM EST
    and who could possibly imagine anything good would come from Brock being "on your side"

    Parent
    He's always been iffy (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:40:29 PM EST
    I saved his book when we cleaned out our physical library. It goes in the trash tonight. Time's up for David Brock.

    Parent
    I like Clinton, heck I love her (none / 0) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:36:06 PM EST
    This affiliation does her service as Secretary of State and all she negotiated hourly a representative injustice. Now that I know more, inspired by Donald, she has to get the heck away from Brock. However she can manage that. He won't do her any favors. I'm not sure he knows how to ethically do those.

    Parent
    Does anyone take him seriously? (none / 0) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:42:48 PM EST
    IMO he is Dick Morris territory.

    Parent
    He could give Donald a run (none / 0) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:48:04 PM EST
    Howdy, those pics are (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by fishcamp on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:42:59 PM EST
    Almost as good as sj's troll page.

    Parent
    It's not good (none / 0) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:06:10 PM EST
    If you're in it to win it and be credible. Can she run against Sanders and ignore certain forms of credibility? Brock is going to have to go. I think its too early to be the liability he has already become.

    Parent
    "In it to win it"--such a great slogan. (none / 0) (#145)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 03:06:05 AM EST
    Must google to see who gets the credit.

    Parent
    Thank you for the link. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:27:39 AM EST
    This is the world the Supreme Court made for us, post-Citizens United. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is until otherwise.

    Speaking for myself only, while I don't like what was said about Sen. Sanders, who's a good and honorable man, I'm not going to just toss aside my own support for Mrs. Clinton because of one email from one overenthusiastic backer. I think you're being rather melodramatic in calling into question how she'd run the presidency on the sole basis of that one email, too.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#104)
    by FlJoe on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:00:46 PM EST
    as far as I can tell this all stems from one email from an unnamed staffer(?) at SRS
    sent to a Huffington Post reporter in response to an article about Corbyn and Sanders
     The article then goes on to interpret(without quoting) the email as "yoking" the two together (in a bad way), I saw no link to this "Corbyn and Sanders" story but I am guessing it probably "yoked" them together(in a good way). Maybe the resonder when overboard on really saying what he thought of them

    It's quite possible that whoever wrote this e-mail just went off the reservation and got stupid  , and less possible that it's the first shot in the "red baiting" campaign people are screaming about.

    I guess we shall see, but until I see more evidence I will just apply Hanlons Razor and chalk off the hyperventilation to CDS.

    Parent

    I'll keep the standards even though (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:27:19 PM EST
    A TL friend just reminded me that Sanders is screwed for claiming conscientious objector status during Vietnam and then turning around in his political career and voting for war, refusing to vote against war in Afghanistan and leaving Waters standing there alone, and ever voting to fund any war. HE IS NO CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR. And they will hammer him to $hit on that. US soldiers during the WOT went to prison for what Bernie Sanders has done. Everyone should probably be aware of that too.

    Parent
    do you think it matters (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:34:27 AM EST
    that his objector status was rejected.  And that he's said it was about fighting in that particular war - which I assume (but don't know) is why it was rejected.

    Or that it was 60 years ago and it's not like he did a quick 180.

    In the general he may very well get hammered but I think on the left there is more appreciation for the distinction between "right wars" and "wrong wars".

    Parent

    I don't think it matters that it was rejected (none / 0) (#159)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 10:38:40 AM EST
    They only rejected it after he reached the age of 26, and was no longer in the age range to be drafted. They did that so that if new draft requirements were decided on he would have to reapply or maybe they could snag him.

    I really don't feel there is a dimes worth of difference between what Sanders chose to do and magically developing anal cysts 5 times except Sanders was more honest.

    Sadly in bare knuckle politics, on these issues it comes down to what they can prove. Sanders was more honest IMO than Bill Clinton, or Dick Cheney, or Joe Biden, or Karl Rove but it works against him now. While everyone else played the deferment games trying to run the clock out he allowed his true feelings about serving in Vietnam to show.

    Bill Clinton played the deferment game because he always intended to have a political career. I don't think Cheney ever intended to have a political career back then, but pacifists aren't appreciated in Wyoming and neither are cowards, so deferment game.

    Parent

    The legal details (none / 0) (#114)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:38:07 PM EST
    of what constitutes a conscientious objector are beyond the knowledge or interest of most people. Maybe not in your circle, but in civilian society I can assure you I have not heard one word about his CO status or non-status.

    Sure someone will try to bring it up. If the opposition doesn't do it the concern trolls will. But I think, while some individuals might turn up their nose at this little hint of apparent hypocrisy, the issue will get little traction. If people are looking for hypocrisy there is plenty to be found every where.  This isn't even egregious.

    Just my opinion. Which has just as much standing as GA6TH's. Which is another way of saying that my opinion is as worthless an indicator of reality as hers is.

    Also, in my worthless opinion the WOT ("war" my a$$), can hardly be compared as all members of the military for that so-call "war" volunteered. If there were draftees you would have a leg to stand on.


    Parent

    I would say they are beyond your knowledge (4.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:51:57 PM EST
    And interest. Bernie Sanders voting record after claiming conscientious objector basically reveals he lied, and is a sort of traitor. Most who care would say he is unfit to lead US troops at this point.

    Go ahead and have your doubts. My friend caused me to remember what they did to Kerry. Kerry served and about half the military thinks if he wants to burn his medals and dance naked around the fire that's his prerogative.

    Sanders claimed that he embraced certain scruples and principles that prevented him from participating in war in any way. Then in his political life he voted to send others to war, and funded keeping them at war. That's a couple of shades of traitor there. Sorry if it bothers, it is true though and what happened to Kerry will be visited upon Bernie at least 10 fold.

    Parent

    The fact is (3.00 / 1) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:58:11 PM EST
    this is known to lots of people.   And it's what they meant when they said Bernie was not getting the critical coverage everyone was and is getting because all that mattered to the media is that Hilkary had a serious challenger.

    Personally I have mixed feelings about it.   But I agree in a general election it would be a huge problem.  But I have never worried about that because I never expected Bernie to be in the general election.

    Parent

    It is unknown to more people (none / 0) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:02:29 PM EST
    I didn't know until today. This is serious though Capt. Don't kid yourself.

    Parent
    This kind of diatribe (none / 0) (#123)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:05:19 PM EST
    is really, really tedious from a civilian perspective. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

    Because Sanders is just exactly like Kerry and will handle it just exactly the same way.

    What "your friend" (which is how my mother referred to her periods so it makes me snicker like a naughty child when you write it. It puts a whole new spin on the comment itself.) had to say about Kerry is just what "your friend" had to say about Kerry.

    It's just another opinion.

    Parent

    So he would "ignore" the attacks (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:09:30 PM EST
    and lose the election.  Just like Kerry?   How is this a good thing?

    Parent
    Not like you, Howdy (none / 0) (#127)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:10:49 PM EST
    to not recognize sarcasm.

    Parent
    Possibly (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:16:21 PM EST
    because it seem entirely plausible to me.  Bernie has made a big deal about his aversion to negative politics.   I think he might do exactly that.   Kerry's whole thing was this is silly I'm just going to ignore it.  The rest is history.

    I have said from the beginning and as you say, just my opinion, that he is ill equipped to deal with what would come at him.   I believe this.  

    Parent

    He would come into office (none / 0) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:30:15 PM EST
    At war too. We have had a mass of deployments out of the Air Force in recent months. It looks to me like we will be taking ISIS on because of the refugee situation.

    I don't think it can be ignored.

    Perhaps if we had a moment of peace Bernie's service challenges could slip through unnoticed, probably not in my lifetime though :( And I don't think that is a good thing. I think it just is.

    Parent

    It's not a diatribe (none / 0) (#124)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:06:09 PM EST
    Tracy, sorry, (none / 0) (#175)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:16:49 PM EST
    noted that I gave a troll rating and have no idea how that happened. Not intended,  I think I can change it to another rating, but this is a comment that I would ordinarily just read as an opinion, think about it and move on, but not agreeing on this one.  Just to remove the "l" I'll  put something else in its place., but not really reflective.

    Parent
    That's cool, thanks KD (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 04:32:41 PM EST
    It's not a glossy comment. Just what I'm almost certain would be said in the general election, lots and lots of commercials and the Luntz playing everyone's lizard brain like a violin.

    Parent
    I Agree, But it's Such An Odd... (none / 0) (#31)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:22:09 PM EST
    ...thing considering that everyone is elected.  We are basically mad as ourselves for electing ineffectual and partisan hacks ?  It's not like this is the first race to have outsiders running.

    Also, the reasons for liking Trump aren't the same as Sanders.  

    Parent

    We are all sick of being played (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:33:48 PM EST
    Obama would have NEVER voted for the Iraq War but gleefully shoved FISA up our arses again, and the DOJ has been slow to deliver some justice a few times :)

    Everyone is sick of being sold things during the election that they never get. Conservatives have been sold the reincarnation of Ronald Reagan over and over again, but the RNC never actually produces that mythical SOB :) And they are really sick of it :) By God they have had it!

    Parent

    Reagan could rise... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:00:24 PM EST
    from the grave and enter the race, and he wouldn't live up to the legend of Reagan.  The 2015 Republican base would want him tarred and feathered for raising taxes and running up debts and granting amnesty to paperless Americans.

    Parent
    Yup, isn't it a hoot? (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:55:05 PM EST
    Who they think he was never happened :)

    Parent
    So, I guess they're all preparing to (none / 0) (#42)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:48:29 PM EST
    have a mass cutting-off-of-noses...

    You should check out Charlie Pierce's post on the impending GOP debate - it is a beaut.  Here's a bit of it:

    A frontrunner whose entire platform, as reinforced by a completely whackadoo collection of random sentences that he spouted on Tuesday night, is that he's him and you're not, and neither are the Supreme Leader of Iran, the president of Mexico, or the CEO of the Ford Motor Company.

    A woman who nearly destroyed a hugely respected American brand and got paid something north of $20 million just to go away.

    A brilliant neurosurgeon who believes that the Medicaid expansion was the Nuremberg Laws.

    A guy who was governor of Florida shortly after Ponce de Leon blew town whose brother pretty much wrecked the country.

    A bass-playing Bible-banging hayseed, who's presently campaigning for the rights of faith-based goldbricks to slough off on their government jobs.

    Two incredibly unpopular governors, only one of whom is under active criminal investigation at the moment.

    One governor who is popular in his state, but unloved by the fans of all these other clucks.

    And three senators: a rookie from Florida with a pole up his ass the size of El Capitan; a former brogressive hero who can't make up his mind on the Civil Rights movement, and a Canadian-born, Tex-Mex Joe McCarthy whose only achievement in political office is pissing off Mitch McConnell which, while admirable, is hardly a qualification to have the guy with the nuclear codes sitting outside your office.

    [...]

    As to the issues, well, you know where we're going there. Affordable Care Act, bad.  Seal the borders!  Climate change? What the hell is that, anyway? Jeb! will shill for his newfound faith in the supply-side hoodoo. (Does every member of the Bush family have to swear fealty to this nonsense? Is this a charge that Poppy laid upon all of his descendants back when he accepted the VP slot back in '80?) Walker will pine for the days of the breaker boys. Rubio and Aqua Buddha will grope for relevance and fall inches short of it. Cruz will conduct a tri-lingual exorcism to see if he can rid the hall of the spirits of Spitz Channell and Manucher Ghorbanifar.  And all of them will condemn the Iran deal. Appeasement! Munich! Neville Chamberlain. And they will do so in a shrine dedicated to the one president who went out of his way to sell sophisticated weaponry to the Islamic Republic of Iran. This will occur to practically nobody in the hall, but we've got ourselves a show now, kids. We certainly have that.



    Parent
    Canadian born Tex-Mex Joe McCarthy (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:00:20 PM EST
    Priceless

    Parent
    If we are not mad at ourselves... (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:05:47 PM EST
    we should be.  Too scared of losing to really play to win, so when we do win we don't really win, it's more like a tie.

    Parent
    This is (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 10:55:45 AM EST
    such weak tea that I don't understand the gnashing of teeth about it.  

    Bernie's biggest problem is he calls himself a socialist. I have yet to see anybody explain how he's going to overcome that one.

    I would expect him to be asked (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:14:46 AM EST
    about it in a debate, and I think his answer is likely to handle it.

    He's been in the Congress for how many years?  I don't recall his party affiliation being much of an issue, if any.

    Did you see him handle the reporter from the O'Reilly Factor, who ambushed him in the hallway?

    Bernie doesn't suffer fools gladly, and overall, I think he seems much more politically astute than Clinton, who continues to get - and take - the godawfulest advice from people she's probably paying way too much money to.  Again.

    Parent

    His (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:24:22 AM EST
    affiliation wasn't a problem in Vermont. We know that. What we do know is that 50% of the voters say they won't vote for a socialist according to Gallup.

    No, I did not see him handle that. You should google him debating Michelle Bachmann. I would like to see what you think of that.

    Parent

    Pretty sure that 90% of the 50% (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:00:56 PM EST
    who have a problem with it don't know what a socialist is, or to be more precise, a Democratic Socialist, and that's why the Correct the Record campaign to reinforce the idea that he's some kind of subversive commie-pinko.

    From the DSA website:

    At the root of our socialism is a profound commitment to democracy, as means and end. As we are unlikely to see an immediate end to capitalism tomorrow, DSA fights for reforms today that will weaken the power of corporations and increase the power of working people. For example, we support reforms that:

        decrease the influence of money in politics

        empower ordinary people in workplaces and the economy

        restructure gender and cultural relationships to be more equitable.

    We are activists committed to democracy as not simply one of our political values but our means of restructuring society. Our vision is of a society in which people have a real voice in the choices and relationships that affect the entirety of our lives. We call this vision democratic socialism -- a vision of a more free, democratic and humane society.

    Doesn't sound so scary anymore, does it?

    Parent

    The problem (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:37:14 PM EST
    is you are going to have to continually explain what democratic socialism is. You see you're even proving my point. And if you're explaining you're losing. The problem is the negatives of the word socialism have not completely gone away and while "democratic socialism" might be different it still has the word socialism in it.

    Parent
    No, I don't think it's going to (none / 0) (#47)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:02:53 PM EST
    take "constant" explanation, and I don't think there's as much negative association as you seem to think.

    I guess my question is, do you object to Sanders from a policy perspective?  I ask because I said yesterday that anyone who gives a hoot about where we're headed should not be trying to bring Sanders or Clinton down - they should be building them up.

    But it's gotten to the point where I can practically hear the Debbie Downer "whonh-wah" sound every time you post something: it's all, "I like Bernie, but..." and what follows are all the wonky reasons he "can't" win.  Now you're stuck on socialism, I guess.

    Is he right on income inequality, child nutrition, college education, holding the finance community accountable?  Is he right on women's rights, on voting and civil rights?  How about trade policy?  

    You're making the same mistake Clinton did when she ran into the Obama juggernaut: she tried the same old kinds of attacks and it reared up and bit her in the butt.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:01:23 PM EST
    the polling says that only 36% of Americans have a positive impression of socialism. And that 36% is the highest number I found. here is Pew and it's at 31%.

    I like Sanders but he comes off as too pie in the sky for me. No, I'm just trying to bring a dose of realism into the argument. Look both candidates have baggage and issues and both are far from perfect candidates. Of course there is no perfect candidate.

    I find him weak on women's rights. He doesn't really seem concerned much about women's rights. He seems to mostly be concerned with income inequality. The income inequality is fine but it appears to me that he thinks if income inequality is solved everything else is just going to fall into place. But beyond that I'm not sure that income inequality can be solved in one president's term. I think that is going to be something that is going to have to be tackled long term. Sure things can be started now but it's going to probably take a while to get that one fixed.

    Parent

    He's not going to garner many GOP votes (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:26:18 PM EST
    with support for social democrat ideals. And voters who are financially secure may outwardly support his idealism but vote for Clinton for the nomination, fearing they would pay significantly more taxes should Sanders be elected President. Or maybe not:  SCOTUS and those GOP candidates.

    Parent
    Of course (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:04:15 PM EST
    he's not. Neither one are going to get GOP votes. The problem is going to be getting voters beyond the base or even motivating the base to show up.

    Parent
    funniest thing is that 20 years ago (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:47:26 PM EST
    they were claiming Hillary was a socialist - maybe they still are.

    I am extremely doubtful that such a huge - dare I say re-education effort?- will happen during an election cycle.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:57:51 PM EST
    that's my thoughts too. The word is just too damaged even though it's on the mend. It's going to take a few more election cycles before it's acceptable. Just in the last 15-20 years or so has "liberal" lost the "negative".

    Parent
    Uh...no; "liberal" didn't lose the (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:10:58 PM EST
    negative - it was so demonized that it had to morph into "progressive," or had you forgotten that?  I haven't, because it irritated the crap out of me the way Dems decided to run from the word.

    To some extent, Sanders has made it possible for more people to be proud about, and feel comfortable, calling themselves "liberal."

     I don't know where you come up with this stuff, but your statement about the perception of "liberal" is just flat-out wrong.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:47:22 PM EST
    that's true. I will agree with you on that point. Progressive is the one now being demonized. I just don't see any political ads screaming about "liberals" anymore and this is down here in GA. It's all about how progressives are evil ;)

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#102)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:49:21 PM EST
    they meant to say that she like to socialize.

    Parent
    ...at (none / 0) (#103)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:50:24 PM EST
    receptions and such...

    Parent
    Of COURSE it wasn't (none / 0) (#16)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:36:36 AM EST
    He's been elected from a teeny tiny New England State full of white people, who are mostly politically left and far left of center to begin with. Calling yourself a socialist is no big deal there

    Two problems: 1) He's running for the DEMOCRATIC nomination, so if he gets close to winning, he's gonna have to change parties.  Will his deeply held principles uphold then, or will he cave, like a very other politician?  2) let's see how well the self-identifying as a socialist plays in states that are larger and aa much more diverse before assuming past performance is an indicator of future performance.

    Parent

    Words change.... (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:02:12 PM EST
    I don't think "socialist" is the dirty word some of you guys think it is anymore.  Voters 18-27 weren't even alive when the Berlin Wall fell, sh*t many of them kids don't fear socialism they, pine for it.  I don't see red-baiting and fear-mongering being an effective tactic to sway any voter under 70, or any voter who can be swayed at least.

    Especially since Bernie doesn't try to weasel and hide from it, he defends and embraces it.

    Parent

    There is definitely an age gap (none / 0) (#26)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:05:18 PM EST
    It's hard to judge though if it's "this is the future" or "the future is here".

    I'd also like to point out that it's not just 18-27 year olds anymore.  People in their 30s (40s?) didn't grow up under the same red-scare either.

    We're starting to enter "real voting block" territory.  Whether it's enough is another question.

    Parent

    Here (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:44:52 PM EST
    you go Socialist candidates least appealing

    50% will NOT vote for a socialist. 40% will not vote for an atheist and 38% will not vote for a Muslim. Muslims and atheists are doing better in polling than socialists.

    You are correct that it is not a problem with younger people therefore over time it is not going to be a problem. However it is still a problem for at least 1/2 of Americans.

    Parent

    Kinda proving my point (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:45:35 PM EST
    Those young people who you say are embracing it are the same ones you say have no clue as to what it means.

    Also, thee aren't the people who show up to vote.

    And you and CST are in the northeast corridor - not exactly representative of the country as a whole.

    And we are still 14 months out, when no real hard questions have come Sanders' way because I he press LOVE him.  I have no doubt he'll be able to handle the press, but wh n he has to talk about the details of his plan, are voters realky gonna listen?

    (Plus that while thing about him change ng parties and caving on his principles and all).

    Parent

    At some point (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:24:19 PM EST
    you're going to have to acknowledge that people under 40 are a legitimate voting block.

    The turnout may not be quite as high but the numbers are there and they aren't insignificant.

    Parent

    They can hasten that day by voting (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:49:50 PM EST
    I hear you (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:04:31 PM EST
    My point was that there are enough in sheer numbers that do vote that it's no longer a fringe group.  And that the young people in question are not, in fact, that young anymore and are entering the increased voting range.

    I'm not sure how old kdog is for example, but I know he's older than me and I know how old I am and the "kids these days" comments are about people who are now approaching and in their 40s...

    They aren't just kids anymore.

    If you're talking about all the people from 18-45 for example that's a huge chunk of the voting electorate that does in fact impact elections.

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:14:25 PM EST
    I'm 38 and though I'm no card-carrying socialist it's certainly not a dirty word.  And after living my whole life under financial deregulation, I'm certainly down to try some anarcho-socialism at least, having witnessed the failure of trickle-down economics and a rise in authoritarianism first hand.

    I'd say 50 and under or so have no conditioned aversion to "socialism", unless they got it from their parents listening to talk radio all the time.  That's enough of a demographic starting point for the socialist label to win offices.

    25 and under forget it, they're ready for straight-up communism, which I'd prefer to avoid...think of socialism as a compromise with the generation we've created who have no first-hand witnessing of socialism gone horribly wrong and want to abolish capital.

    Parent

    There are those of us (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Zorba on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:08:49 PM EST
    over 60 who have no aversion to socialism, either, kdog.
    (Speaking as an aging, far left-wing, DFH.)
    Namaste.

    Parent
    At some point (none / 0) (#148)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 08:11:06 AM EST
    You're going to have to admit that everyone under 40 thinks like liberal Northeasterners and does not constitute a single voting block.  Many people are idealistic at 18 and grow more conservative as they grow up, get married, and try to get by.  They may still vote for Democrats, but that doesn't mean they will embrace a self-identified Socialist (even if they agree with his ideals.  Someone is still gonna have to pay for those).

    Parent
    you assume I live (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:24:52 AM EST
    In a bubble, which is so far from the truth these days that I just have to laugh.  Yes I am personally a liberal who is currently in (and from) the northeast but believe it or not I get out of the house and don't surround myself with people just like me.

    And I'm not talking about 18 year-olds here, or suggesting that everyone will wake up and vote for Bernie, hell I don't think even I will.  I'm saying that socialism and socialist policies aren't scary/bad.  I'm not talking about idealistic kids waiting to get some skin in the game.  I'm talking grown adults with kids and families of their own, and your tendency to dismiss any opinions of people younger than you as "idealistic/ignorant/naive kids".

    Parent

    Well, here's the thing, jb. (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 10:18:27 AM EST
    I'm not sure that someone coming out of college who can't find a good job in his or her field, and who is saddled with debt is necessarily going to trend more conservative.  I don't know that parents wearing themselves out because they are trying to work and meet the demands and costs of parenthood/day care, are necessarily going to trend more conservative, or even stay in a conservative position if that's where they started.

    Granted, there are some who will, but when it becomes apparent that the realities that confront this age group  are not being made better or easier because of conservative policies, it may be they will skew more to the left than the right.  

    If you listened to or watched the debate last night, you heard a lot of criticism of "the left wing" for not being family-friendly, at the same time they were rejecting increases to the minimum wage, not talking about more affordable education, and sticking with the tried-and-failed policies of just making it easier for business in order to grow the economy.  Even working to defund an organization that provides low-to-no-cost health care to women of all ages and affiliations on the basis of doctored videos and because it performs abortions in some of its locations.  That's family friendly?  Getting rid of the ACA, with absolutely no plan to replace it with anything else is family-friendly?  Bragging about rejecting the expansion of Medicaid is good for families?

    The GOP seems to believe that getting married and staying married is the only answer for the problems and issues that families are dealing with.  Period, the end.  

    When you have Liberty University students saying that while they don't agree with Sanders' position on abortion, but that his message of fairness/justice/closing the income inequality gap which is wholly consistent with their religious beliefs makes him a viable choice for them, I think that's instructive and important.

    Parent

    Skew to the left (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by vicndabx on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:13:26 PM EST
    There's left and then there's left.  

    The thing I think people are not remembering is people vote their pocketbook/wallet.  I'm 44 and can tell you (and my wife who like me is a moderate Dem on some things and liberal on others) feel like we pay a good deal in taxes now.  I'd prefer they don't go up anymore.  

    As before w/prior debates around changes to healthcare coverage, people are assuming that all the impacted industries are just going to go along w/these changes AND all this stuff will be turnkey - one day we do things one way, the next we do things another.  I can guarantee the transition either way (turnkey vs. "eventually") would be painful for many and would probably be a significant dent in both the US and world economy.

    I like my salary and the potential for growth.  I have a mortgage and would prefer to keep these things thank you very much.  I suspect I'm not alone.  What do people think will happen to our bond ratings when the US Gov't assumes a significantly higher amount of debt & risk?  What do people think will happen to our economy?  Let's have a deep debate about consequences & risks rather than shallow feel good talk about things that everyone agrees are popular ideas.

    Parent

    Bingo (none / 0) (#166)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:30:19 PM EST
    Finally.  Someone who gets it.

    Anne, you might want to remember that "voters under 30" or "voters under 40" aren't all wide-eyed recently college grads who can't find a good job, either in their field or not.  That's my whole point.  MOST young people do NOT go to / complete college.  The number of young people (under 30) who obtain a college degree (as of 2014) is 34%.  So, a vast majority of those people in that group go to work, join the military, or just drop out.

    And you don't account for those who DO go to work and like Vic said, start paying taxes and mortgages and want to keep some of their money.  They vote too and make up a larger share of the age group than those attending Sanders' rallies.

    So while Bernie Sanders' idealism may appeal to them, the reality is, it's going to be a very tough sell once you have to talk about the details.

    And for CST to tell me to that I will have to realize that the "under 40" group is a legitimate voting block, is silly because they really aren't monolithic, and time after time they really don't vote much until AFTER they turn 40.

    Parent

    I think you are seriously underestimating (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:38:57 PM EST
    How badly the recent economic crash has affected this group of people, and how it changes the math on the economy and politics.

    There aren't jobs or mortgages for them to have skin in the game, even as adults.  And no it's not a monolithic block but the economic situation affects them all.

    Parent

    IMO, that wouldn't necessarily get better (none / 0) (#170)
    by vicndabx on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:54:52 PM EST
    under Bernie's proposals.  

    There aren't jobs or mortgages for them to have skin in the game, even as adults.

    In fact, it may even get worse as there would eventually be more competition for the same jobs.  More will people will have opportunity to improve themselves or their health, yes.  However, that doesn't necessarily equate with more jobs.

    The issue for our country is lack of industry and why.

    Parent

    Policy aside (none / 0) (#172)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:06:39 PM EST
    My point is you have a group of people who aren't going to have the same priorities as they get older.  They're not trying to hold onto what they've got because they don't have anything to begin with.  What you have is a lot of people with nothing to lose.  And frankly that can be really dangerous and I think we ignore that at our own peril.  See - Trump.

    I also don't see any evidence that his policy is bad for jobs but that's a different discussion.

    Parent

    To me it seems that the most obvious thing (none / 0) (#173)
    by ruffian on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:09:31 PM EST
    they can see that would effect them economically would be a tax hike. So in that way they may not be attracted to liberal economic policies even if they think they may benefit in the long run from a socialistic approach.

    Do you hear much talk about taxes in this 24-40 age group? Just wondering if the old 'tax & spend' characterization of liberals still has impact.

    Parent

    well Bernie isn't really talking about (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:15:26 PM EST
    Raising taxes on these people.  So...?

    He's very specific about where the money comes from and where it goes.

    I guess my feeling is the old adage that broke people are just down-on-their luck rich people in America is losing steam because people are losing hope of ever being one of those people.

    We now have top Republican candidates seriously talking about raising taxes.

    Parent

    Bernie Sanders' Bank Plan: Too Big to Succeed? (none / 0) (#193)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 08:24:43 AM EST
    It's not just his healthcare plan that needs details, it's other parts of his economic plan.

    It's not at all clear how his four-page bill would work.

    A week after announcing his run for the presidency at the end of April, Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont presented a bill that would become the anchor of his campaign. Together with Rep. Brad Sherman, Sanders introduced the Too Big to Fail, Too Big to Exist Act, which would break up America's biggest banks by setting a cap on the size of financial institutions. "If any of these financial institutions were to fail again, the taxpayers of this country would be on the hook for another bailout, perhaps even larger than the last one," Sanders said at a Capitol Hill press conference announcing the bill. "We cannot let that happen again." Sanders boasted that his bill would mean the end of Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley, all within less than a year of the act becoming law.

    At the time, the bill fit with the general perception of Sanders' candidacy: a challenger seeking to inject liberal priorities into the presidential debate, but not quite serious enough as a candidate to win the nomination and implement his policies. Since then, Sanders has slowly gained in the polls to become a legit challenger to Hillary Clinton for the Democratic nomination. Polls this month have shown him with an edge over Clinton in New Hampshire and Iowa, though he still trails by a wide margin nationally. His populist screeds against the outsize influence of banks and economic elites have propelled his rise and helped him amass huge crowds wherever he travels.

    But amid the hoopla, a simple question has been missed: Even if you support the goal behind the proposal, is his plan to break up Wall Street at all feasible?

    SNIP

    For all his fiery rhetoric, Sanders isn't known in the Senate as a legislative wonk who passes a large volume liberal legislation. The lack of clarity around his bill to break up the banks is likely why it has not yet attracted any cosponsors in the Senate.


    Parent
    The best (none / 0) (#196)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 08:39:36 AM EST
    thing Bernie could do is just submit a plan to the CBO and have them score it. Then we would have some hard numbers to work with.

    Parent
    Maybr (none / 0) (#195)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 08:26:36 AM EST
    But I think you are WAY overestimating how many of them would vote for Bernie Sanders.

    Parent
    And the, there's (none / 0) (#198)
    by jbindc on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 09:16:39 AM EST
    this (emphasis mine).

    F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway famously disagreed about the American elite. "The very rich are different from you and me," Fitzgerald wrote. "Yes," Hemingway shot back, "they have more money." With inequality in America continuing to rise, we revisited Fitzgerald and Hemingway's (perhaps apocryphal) dispute, conducting a series of experiments designed to pinpoint the differences between the rich and those of more modest means.

    The conventional view of America as a classless society has long sided with Hemingway--the only difference is the money. But our results suggest that, at least when it comes to attitudes toward inequality, Fitzgerald is right: Elite Americans are not just middle-class people with more money. They display distinctive attitudes on basic moral and political questions concerning economic justice. Simply put, the rich place a much lower value on equality than the rest. What's more, this lack of concern about inequality among the elite is not a partisan matter. Even when they self-identify as progressive Democrats, elite Americans value equality less highly than their middle-class compatriots.

    This finding has profound implications for public policy. Contemporary American politics presents an enduring mystery. Why does the public policy response to nearly five decades of rising economic inequality remain so tepid, even as large majorities of Americans consider inequality excessive, and even under a two-term Democratic president? Our study, published Tursday in the journal Science, co-authored with colleagues Pamela Jakiela and Shachar Kariv, proposes an answer: Regardless of party, the elite donors whose money dominates politics, and the elite officeholders whose decisions set policy, don't value economic equality. When the American government abjures egalitarian policies, it is implementing the bipartisan preferences of the American elite.



    Parent
    No, I think it's someone who agrees (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 02:05:01 PM EST
    with you, which is not necessarily the same as "getting it."

    And what I've learned from both you and vic is that I'm not sure either of you has really studied what it is that Sanders is proposing, which would seem kind of relevant, to  me, at least.

    It's just flat-out hard for young people to get the kinds of things their parents have had.  It's hard to afford to have children AND any of those other things.  If you have to start in a minimum wage job, you're going to be living with mom and dad for a long time.  

    And what is being done to help any of these people?  Resistance to raising the minimum wage, resistance to better parental leave policies, resistance to subsidies for child care costs, resistance to reforming the student loan structure, not to mention the cost of education itself.

    The right's position seems to be that if you want a better life, get a better education.  If you want a better education, and can't pay for it, borrow to do it.  When you can't get that good job your education was supposed to help you get, and can't support yourself on minimum wage AND pay back your loans, they tell you you shouldn't have gone into debt.  They want you to marry and have a family, but only if you can afford it, and if you can't, you should use birth control, but they don't want to make it affordable, because, well, sex.  If you have a child, but can't afford to stay home, they tell you you shouldn't have had a child.  

    And then, you get old, and when you can't make it on Social Security, they tell you you should have worked longer, or saved more.  And they wonder if maybe you can make do with less so they can use your money to lower some mega-profitable corporation's taxes.

    Basically, the problem is that your parents shouldn't have had you because, clearly, you are just the latest generation of people who can't do for yourselves and are looking for a bail out.  You should have had parents who could leave you money in trust.  

    Meanwhile, bailouts for the rich and powerful.

    You're right that not enough people vote.  But you're wrong that Sanders' policies risk raising taxes on the people who would most benefit from them; that's a Republican tactic: taking from the least to give to the most.

    Parent

    That's not true for everybody (none / 0) (#180)
    by vicndabx on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 02:26:15 PM EST
    I would submit it's not true for a majority.  

    I would argue, that is the way it's always been and as I said, will continue to get worse because of how the economy is in the US.  The manufacturing sector is largely gone here.  We are a services industry.

    I haven't studied Bernie's proposals because I don't agree with his approach?  Really?  Wow.

    Parent

    I respect much of what (none / 0) (#171)
    by sj on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:03:16 PM EST
    vic has to say, but when it comes to "higher taxes" that would pay for Medicare for all, and vic, I think of two things:

    1. For me it is irrelevant if the money deducted from my paycheck for health related expenses is considered a premium that goes to a private corporation, or taxes that go toward health care for all. Money deducted is money deducted. Going to health care to all would likely raise my taxes significantly while impacting my net pay minimally.

    2. When vic talks about his mortgage, I think he is talking literally about the effect single payer would have on him and his family -- he works in the health care for profit industry.  It is a valid concern for all those workers. One I'm not going to try to address in this comment, just acknowledge.


    Parent
    Bzzzzzt (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by vicndabx on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:45:54 PM EST
    The type of work I do would likely not be impacted, sorry.  

    But let's say, for the sake of argument, you are correct.  So what?  Of course my perspective is based on my stake in things.  Isn't yours?  The insinuation is rich coming from you who've made such a big deal about how YOUR vote is YOUR own.  Is my perspective less valid than yours or anyone else's?  This is my biggest problem with liberals like you.  It's all good until someone disagrees.  Liberal is supposed to be about open-minded thinking and not closing off thought processes merely because you disagree w/another's perspective.  Liberals like you get real nasty when you disagree.

    For many in my industry and associated industries/businesses that concern IS real and WOULD have an impact on our overall economy.  Do you know healthcare is something like 17% of our GDP?  Let's just screw with it and see what happens.

    Please stop presenting my bio for everyone as though I hide from it.  I've made it plain when I've chosen to numerous times before.  Frankly, you're coming off a little bit like a stalker. I would add, that it may do folks some good to actually understand what occurs in health insurance as opposed to opinionating based on anecdotes that do not reflect reality.  Again, another reason why I've never tried to hide what I do.  The fact is, you have no clue about what it is I do to know whether I would or would not be impacted by changes to the insurance industry.

    Please don't talk about me personally.  If I want to reveal to a particular thread what I do, that is my choice, not yours.  The fact that you felt the need to bring this up for the umpteenth time makes me think the arguments I make resonate.  Discuss the arguments, not me.  Thank You.  

    Parent

    Medicare for All would expand (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by MO Blue on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 02:47:02 PM EST
    rather than eliminate actual health care.

    While Private Insurance Premiums represent a 33 percent share of national health spending ( $961.7 billion in 2013) they do not deliver actual health care nor does the insurance premium component of health care spending represent 17% of the GDP.

    More people having access to actual health care means that there is a greater need for all other elements of health care such as doctors, nurses, and medical devices just to name a few.

    The California Nurses Association produces a study that
    states Medicare for All would add $317 billion in increased business and public revenues and generate 2,613,495 new permanent jobs.

    I agree Let's screw with eliminating the for profit Private Health Insurance system and see what happens. I'm all for more people getting real health care at a lower cost.

    Parent

    Well, considering the ACA (none / 0) (#183)
    by vicndabx on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 03:48:44 PM EST
    aims to get more people access to care, not sure I see the value in messing w/the economy after it's recent recovery, YMMV.  We already have a process in place only recently implemented, I seriously doubt the whole country, and indeed Congress is on board w/changing things again so soon.

    As I've noted before, you want to eliminate the 3-5% percent of profits that gets funneled back into the economy in one form or another.  You believe that's a good thing, that's your opinion.

    You will not get rid of insurers because guess what, we are the ones that process Medicare claims, handle appeals and service Medicare beneficiaries.  We are the contractors (quite efficient I might add) that process all your stuff.  In fact, what you propose would increase contractor payments because the amount of work would significantly increase.  

    I never stated premiums are 17% of GDP.  I said Healthcare, where I should of said Healthcare Spending, which includes your premiums as well reimbursements by insurers, provider and insurer costs, etc.  We spend trillions of dollars each year in healthcare spending.  Premiums are a small but significant percentage and are directly related to costs of care, i.e. what the doctor charges and the amounts reimbursed.  

    Profits are not what's driving up costs.  Unhealthy Americans are what's driving up costs.  Doctors and hospital charges are what's driving up costs.  Prescription drugs are what's driving up costs.  Simply moving to Medicare will do nothing to mitigate that.

    The question here is whether Bernie is the right person to accomplish changes needed to reduce cost.  More specifically, whether his proposals can do that and the likelihood they will be accepted by a majority of Congress and thus he should be given more weight in our considerations for the Democratic nominee as a result of them.

    Parent

    There are approximately 33 million reasons (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by MO Blue on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 05:04:34 PM EST
    to mess with the Private Insurance Industry.

    According to the Census Bureau 33 million people were uninsured for the entire calendar year in 2014.

    This fact should not come as a real surprise, people who lack adequate health care tend to be more unhealthily. A for profit system that limits and denies health care to millions of people drives up the cost of health care. Curable and treatable conditions that are left untreated exellerates the cost as the illness progresses. Also, there is a major cost benefit to having one large entity negotiate prices as is proven by the 30 - 50% save by the Veterans Administration and all other developed countries for prescription drugs.

    The profit margin built into the for profit insuance industry adds additional cost without adding any actual health care benefit. In fact, it has been proven that the industry has adopted practices in order to increase share holder equity that has denied health care to their customers.

    So far, your claim that adopting a Medicare for All system will negatively impact the economy is just that - your claim. No independent research, no dollar amount - nothing more than your claim. As you have stated, claims will still need to be processed and paid. Doctors and nurses will still have to treat patients and people will still have to go the hospital. We just won't have to pay numerous CEOs multimillion dollar salaries to come up with ways to increase their profit margin and share holder equity.

    One last item, it is generally consider a good business practice to disclose the fact that you have a business relationship with an industry when you personally advocate for them.

    Parent

    Realistically you can't eliminate for profit (none / 0) (#190)
    by ragebot on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:42:35 PM EST
    There have been multiple stories about how world leaders from countries with universal health care come to the US and enter the for profit system for health care.

    It is also worth mentioning just because someone has health insurance does not mean they have health care.  Folks with medicare, Medicaid, and some Obamacare plans often can not find doctors who will treat them, their networks simply don't have enough doctors.

    The elephant in the room is ignoring the fact that health care is not an undifferentiated commodity.  Some doctors are better than others, some hospitals are better than others.  How can you stop those doctors from setting up a pay for services for profit system?

    The result would be a two tier system where those with money get the best care and those in the government system get lower quality care.

    Just as an aside if you need health care in Cuba there is also a two tier system.  Tourist and the military go to one set of clinics and ordinary Cubans go to another.

    Parent

    Realistically, we can (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by MO Blue on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 09:21:34 AM EST
    We don't because some people are very comfortable with a system where good health care is reserved for those who can afford it. Although, even there we fall behind. Research cites data suggesting that even white, well-off Americans live sicker and die sooner than similarly situated people elsewhere.

    BTW, it is my understanding that the U.S. is a far richer country than Cuba. This habit of comparing our system to systems in 2nd and 3rd World Countries rather than the best systems is just a way to continue to lower the bar. We already rank far behind other countries in the developed world. i, personally, am not willing to lower the bar even farther. YMMV

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#186)
    by sj on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    You will not get rid of insurers because guess what, we are the ones that process Medicare claims, handle appeals and service Medicare beneficiaries.  We are the contractors (quite efficient I might add) that process all your stuff.  
    I'm pretty sure that those functions will still be needed regardless of who is paying -- which is why I didn't want to talk about it in my first comment.

    No, you don't run from your profession but you sure go into high dudgeon whenever it's mentioned after you opine on health care issues. It probably says something that you fly off the handle whenever it's pointed out. I think that's good though. It puts your other comments into context. Like this. You said much more here than I suspect you meant to.

    Profits are not what's driving up costs.  Unhealthy Americans are what's driving up costs.  Doctors and hospital charges are what's driving up costs.  Prescription drugs are what's driving up costs.  Simply moving to Medicare will do nothing to mitigate that.

    I expected such a reaction, and I probably shouldn't get such a kick out of watching it happen, knowing it's going to happen. But I had a crappy afternoon so it was good that something went as expected. Thanks for that.


    Parent
    I would add one more thing (none / 0) (#179)
    by vicndabx on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 02:13:16 PM EST
    we're not in it for the profits because the profits are tiny, year after year after year.  Go look it up.  Compare what we do to what every other industry does and makes in terms of profits expressed as a percentage. Subtract from that what you think shareholders should get back (and yes that includes 401k holders) and further subtract what you think it costs to improve our systems to pay your claims quicker and better.  Oh, don't forget the employees, your neighbors, who may want a raise or some of the profits to use in your communities and bolster the local economy.

    thread hijack over.  sorry BTD.

    Parent

    Even if Sanders became President (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 04:23:21 PM EST
    We don't have the votes in Congress to implement his vision. Just winning the Presidency doesn't get us there :(

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#187)
    by FlJoe on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 05:02:41 PM EST
    we probably would be better served to have an "establishment" president and many more voices like Sanders and Warren in the Senate.

    I happen to love Bernie's ideas but also think Hillary would make a better president, just from a nuts and bolts perspective.

    Big idealist ideas and soaring rhetoric sounds good on the stump but effecting real change is going to be a long slog of hard fought incremental advances.

    Parent

    As Democrats we have some hard work (none / 0) (#197)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 09:13:04 AM EST
    Ahead. We are 20 yrs behind Turd Blossom's vision quest of owning the states by hook or by crook and neutering Federal regulation, law, and protections.

    Parent
    There's a good chance the next (none / 0) (#200)
    by jondee on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 11:53:49 AM EST
    Wall St-engendered financial disaster could be worse than any previous ones, and then that long hard slog may be forcibly, and of necessity, considerably speeded up..

    Like the apocryphal story about FDR saying the only standing between the predatory class and the pitchforks was him..

    Parent

    And for the record (none / 0) (#149)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 08:30:21 AM EST
    In 2012, those younger than 30 made up 19% of all voters, and those 30-44 made up another 27%.  In 2008, it was 18% for under 30 and 29% for 30-44.  In 2004, the under 30 group was 17%, the 30-49 group was 40%.  (They changed their measurement ranges a bit).  In 2000, under 30 - 17%, 30-49 - 45%.

    (From The Roper Center for Publication c Opinion Research at UConn.  Sorry, can't link right now).

    So no, there isn't going to be a huge uptick in the number of people and under 40 voting.  

    Parent

    put it together (none / 0) (#153)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:26:44 AM EST
    and you're talking almost 50% of all voters.  

    I'm not saying it's ticking up, I'm saying that's a large chunk of the electorate.

    Parent

    A lot of conservatives are just (none / 0) (#150)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 08:32:11 AM EST
    as idealistic as traditional liberals, if not more so..

    Whence comes this unshakeable faith in Free Markets, the Judeo-Christan tradition, and the foreign policy "big stick"?

    That that conservative faith is based in "realism" is just one more ideal.

    Parent

    Should read (none / 0) (#152)
    by jbindc on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:25:35 AM EST
    "Everyone under 40 does NOT think like liberal Northeasterners..."

    Parent
    Wait a minute, (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:40:31 PM EST
    according to Ga6thDem rulz, Bernie's supporters are doing him a "great disservice" and "are certain to drive voters away" when they make negative statements about HRC on a blog.

    It would be really, really nice if you would apply the same standards to both candidates and their supporters.

    Your current comment would have more weight if you did not daily gnash your teeth over blog comments by  Bernie's supporters followed by broad brush condemnations of his supporters.

    Parent

    Neither candidate's supporters (none / 0) (#99)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    should get squeamish or be outraged or ????.  This is a Presidential campaign; it is rough & tumble by nature; and, it will get rougher all the way around.  

    Parent
    missing the point (3.67 / 3) (#108)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:20:23 PM EST
    It would be real, real (3.00 / 2) (#105)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:04:25 PM EST
    nice if Ga stopped her daily attacks of squeamishness and outrage where Sanders supporters are concerned.

    It would also be real nice if you would for once post this type of comment to one of her numerous daily comdemnations of people who support Sanders.

    Parent

    Well, while I understand (3.50 / 2) (#131)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:44:57 PM EST
    your concern, I cannot agree.  For this reason: Both Clinton & Sanders are politicians ... and, good ones (and good people) at that.  The Presidential campaign process "ain't bean-bag" as we have been reminded again & again.  Whether we agree with the thrusts and punches in the early goings now really doesn't matter.  It only matters when things go beyond the bounds of expected claims, counterclaims.  Right now, we are nowhere near that.  

    Look, I'm not a big Brock fan either (echoing Donald), but--from what I've read about his latest book--I cannot find fault with his internal jab at all of us in the Democratic Party that we need to toughen up in the process ... not run from harsh claims. Whether true or false.  It seems to me that both Hillary and Bernie both know that--which I like--and, are acting accordingly.  Morality plays belong in the spiritual sector ... not the political arena.  And, that is real....

    Parent

    I have to admit that I'm (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 07:54:49 PM EST
    I am amazed but not surprised by the double standards you are applying to this situation.

    As long as people like Ga daily rail on Bernie and his supporters, you remain silent. No lectures for her and others to stop their daily attacks of squeamishness and outrage where Sanders supporters are concerned. No lectures on how the Presidential process ain't bean bag. No lectures on how comments that criticize HRC don't really matter, that we need not run from harsh claims against HRC. Complete silence on your part.  No lectures.

     No surprise really but even you should be able to recognize that you are using completely different standards.

    Parent

    Why do any need to lecture other commenters who (4.00 / 3) (#137)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 08:19:09 PM EST
    are merely expressing personal opinions w/o resorting to insults?

    Parent
    Maybe you need to ask (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:11:04 PM EST
    Christine why she felt the need to lecture me because I objected to the double standards being used in connection with the daily attacks of squeamishness and outrage (to use Christine's terminology) when Sanders supporters go negative on HRC on a blog vs when HRC supporters go negative on Sanders in emails to the press.

    Evidently since you troll rated my previous comment, you feel that my stating my "personal opinion" that double standards are being used should not be allowed.

    If the daily barrage against Sanders supporters are just personal opinions, then surely a statement that double standards are being used is equally a personal opinion. If lectures to me on how attacks on Sanders is just part of the Presidential process and are no big thing is just a personal opinion, then once again my pointing out these lectures are reserved for Sanders supporters and a double standard is being used is also my personal opinion. Yet, you CHOSE to troll rate my personal opinion. You are picking and choosing what you want to label a personal opinion and what you want to label an insult. You are employing completely different standards in your judgement and in what you choose to applaud and what you chose to troll rate.

    Parent

    My opinion: MO Blue (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:46:17 PM EST
    In all sincerity, I do not believe that I "lectured" you.  I stated my opinion.  If stating one's opinion equates with a "lecture," what can possibly be said in disagreement?

    In this case--and IMO--some are getting a bit bent out of shape (or seeming to be so) because of the slings & arrows of politics.  

    Parent

    You never do (none / 0) (#167)
    by sj on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:32:01 PM EST
    In all sincerity, I do not believe that I "lectured" you.
    I completely believe you when you say that. Despite how often I and others have pointed out how patronizing comments like that really are. I also agree with you that you are stating your opinion. In your usual patronizing lecturing style. I expect to see a lot more of it in future months.

    I also expect to see you

    getting a bit bent out of shape
    for
    the slings & arrows  
    in this comment.

    But if this is a sincere question:

    If stating one's opinion equates with a "lecture," what can possibly be said in disagreement?
    I will attempt an answer:

    It becomes a lecture when you are admonishing others on how they should behave/think/speak -- or how they are doing it wrong. (A sin I admit I often commit myself. Usually -- but not necessarily limited to -- in response to what I perceive as trollish behavior)

    It is your opinion when you express you how feel about the POV of others, in other words when you speak for yourself.

    ----
    About that trollish thing: I think it's the right thing to do to call it out when you see it. And, as a woman of color, I never put up with being patronized. Give people an inch and they'll take a mile and think it belongs to them.

    Parent

    How we read & interpret things (2.00 / 1) (#189)
    by christinep on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 07:27:41 PM EST
    If the patronizing-shoe fits, dear SJ,
    Kindly think about wearing it.

    Parent
    I am thoroughly sick of it all and it is (none / 0) (#139)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:45:34 PM EST
    a long time to the IA caucuses.

    Parent
    I'm rather sick of the daily (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 10:37:21 PM EST
    attacks on Sanders supporters and the left wing of the party. I am also pretty sick of these ongoing comments being ignored or applauded by you and some other HRC supporters. Supporters who then turn around and meet any objection to this ongoing rhetoric with admonishments, troll ratings or lectures. Lectures on how we on the left should all sing kumbaya with those whose daily routine is to make negative comments about us and the candidate we support.

    Parent
    You expect too much of me. (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 10:41:55 PM EST
    Evidently asking you to explain (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 07:17:15 AM EST
    your comment is expecting too much of you as well.

    Drive by troll ratings seem to be your speciality in this thread.

    Good job on continuing to show just how much you are unwilling to use your own criteria for comments from others.

    Parent

    Give it up. (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 11:50:11 AM EST
    Give it up and deny (none / 0) (#165)
    by MO Blue on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 12:17:37 PM EST
    you another opportunity to troll rate me. What is the fun in that?

    I'm enjoying watching you prove that my personal opinion that you employ a double standard is accurate. You who criticize others for insulting people (insults were a figment of your imagination BTW) for stating their personal opinion, dole out drive by troll ratings when I state my personal opinion. Your troll ratings are pretty clear proof that you do not practice what you preach. IOW you have a double standard just like I stated in my personal opinion.

    Parent

    Ok. You win. (none / 0) (#176)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    Wonderfull (none / 0) (#182)
    by MO Blue on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 02:52:30 PM EST
    I love it when the truth wins out.

    Parent
    Exactly how am I expecting (3.00 / 2) (#143)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:16:02 PM EST
    too much of you?

    From my POV I'm only asking you not to use a double standard. Too much to expect? If you say so.

    Parent

    Ah (none / 0) (#146)
    by MO Blue on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 07:00:03 AM EST
    Another troll rating from you oculus. Good job.

    The comment that 'I was expecting too much from you" was your comment.

    Now asking you to explain your comment is too much to expect from you also so you resort to another drive by troll rating.

    Parent

    George W. Bush (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by MKS on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:04:41 PM EST
    tried to whack Hugo Chavez.   Known right winger and then State Department official Otto Reich met with the coup plotters a week before the coup attempt.

    After that, Chavez ran off the rails.  

    Otto Reich was an apologist for U.S. intervention in Guatemala....really bad guy.

    But same ol' story.  U.S. intervenes and tries to disrupt a democratically elected leftist and the blow back is bad.

    Sanders support may ... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:18:51 PM EST
    be a mile wide but it's an inch deep.

    Assuming no oppo sticks, extremely unlikely, he might win NH.  But I don't see where he wins after that.  And a NH win is easy to dismiss. It's a favorite son win. He's from a neighboring state.

    In the even more unlikely event that he wins in both Iowa and NH, and Biden isn't in the race, some other institutional Dem will enter the race.

    Hillary will still win though.  She's good in the trenches.

    Remember, she almost beat Obama.  And he was a once in a lifetime candidate.  And had the press and the institutional party behind him.

    Sanders is no Obama.  Nor is Biden.  Nor is Elizabeth Warren.

    Obama (none / 0) (#87)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:02:34 PM EST
    is no Sanders, and he definitely is no Elizabeth Warren.
    In a debate, she would run rings around his parsing.
    If it came to it, she would run rings around Hillary Clinton as well.

    We have had enough of Republicans and Republican-lites.

    If the Democrats cannot propose a Democrat for us to vote for, we will wind up with one of the beasts from the other party.

    It is a prospect that frightens me.
    I've had quite enough of endless war and income inequality.

    Parent

    Coverage (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:19:44 PM EST
    is interesting.

    Trumps lead and Hillary's lead nationally is pretty close to the same.  20 points or so.  But with Trump is all about how he dominating the race and towering above everyone else and with Hillary its always Hillary's lead shrunk again.  Probably without mentioning it shrunk from 30-40 to 20-30.

    Parent

    Robert Reich, on the WSJ hit piece (5.00 / 3) (#158)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 10:33:20 AM EST
    on Bernie Sanders:

    I've had so many calls about an article appearing earlier this week in the Wall Street Journal -- charging that Bernie Sanders's proposals would carry a "price tag" of $18 trillion over a 10-year period -- that it's necessary to respond.

    The Journal's number is entirely bogus, designed to frighten the public. Please spread the truth:

    (1) Bernie's proposals would cost less than what we'd spend without them. Most of the "cost" the Journal comes up with--$15 trillion--would pay for opening Medicare to everyone. This would be cheaper than relying on our current system of for-profit private health insurers that charge you and me huge administrative costs, advertising, marketing, bloated executive salaries, and high pharmaceutical prices. (Gerald Friedman, an economist at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, estimates a Medicare-for-all system would actually save all of us $10 trillion over 10 years).

    (2) The savings from Medicare-for-all would more than cover the costs of the rest of Bernie's agenda--tuition-free education at public colleges, expanded Social Security benefits, improved infrastructure, and a fund to help cover paid family leave - and still leave us $2 trillion to cut federal deficits for the next ten years.

    (3) Many of these other "costs" would also otherwise be paid by individuals and families -- for example, in college tuition and private insurance. So they shouldn't be considered added costs for the country as a whole, and may well save us money.

    (4) Finally, Bernie's proposed spending on education and infrastructure aren't really "spending" at all, but investments in the nation's future productivity. If we don't make them, we're all poorer.

    That Rupert Murdoch's Wall Street Journal would do this giant dump on Bernie, based on misinformation and distortion, confirms Bernie's status as the candidate willing to take on the moneyed interests that the Wall Street Journal represents.

    For link, see Reich's facebook page.

    The WSJ has always been (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 10:40:12 AM EST
    Fox News for neocons and Republicans with MBAs..

    It doesn't exactly come as a shock that they'd make Sanders public enemy number one.

    Parent

    Ultimately, it's a wash. (2.00 / 1) (#2)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:47:59 AM EST
    He's preaching to the choir.  I think it is utterly terrible messaging by Brock by the way.  I'm disgusted.  Just not a game changer.

    Sanders better come up with a much better reason for applying as a conscientious objector status in Vietnam(eventually denied) than I would never have fought in that war if he has any plans for winning a GE.  That explanation completely lacks empathy to those who served.

    Hogwash (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 10:58:35 AM EST
    Sanders was a pacifist, and his reasoning was totally valid.

    I don't know how many people close to you served in Vietnam, but I've had a few in my life, some of whom volunteered -- and every single one came out of that war messed up either physically or mentally and thinks it was a huge mistake.

    Parent

    And let us not forget Dick Cheney (none / 0) (#7)
    by shoephone on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:03:16 AM EST
    who got five deferments for Vietnam, and still managed to get elected and drive this country into the worst military quagmire ever.

    The smears against Sanders will continue as he moves up in the polls. He seems to be handling it all with ease.

    Parent

    Sorry. You pick your (none / 0) (#15)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:33:35 AM EST
    Government not your wars,  it's Terrible reasoning.  My Dad was not sent to Vietnam but he served and he adamnetly opposed the war.

    Parent
    Personal feelings aside (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:40:44 AM EST
    We haven't had a draft in a very long time.  And one of the reasons I don't think it will come back any time soon is the idea that you should also be able to pick your wars to some extent.

    I don't think that idea is as offensive to the general public as you do.

    Parent

    I didn't say his not (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by masslib on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:48:34 AM EST
    Serving was offensive.  I said his answer was.  I would not have fought that war.  Well, neither would must of the people who fought in it.  He needs a better answer than that.

    Parent
    Yes I understand (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:01:13 PM EST
    But I think the answer just goes to his thought process about it.

    I didn't hear it as a dig at the people who did serve, just that that is why he did what he did.

    I think I'm also hearing an implied "chosen" in that sentence.

    I think it also matters that he has a consistent anti-war record and an extremely long record of fighting for support for veterans when they come home, which I think shows a lot more of the kind of empathy that matters.

    Parent

    He does not have a consistent anti-war record :) (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:40:19 PM EST
    He just doesn't :)

    Parent
    He could use a better spokesperson. (none / 0) (#44)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:58:55 PM EST
    I sure hope he's got one (none / 0) (#56)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:00:36 PM EST
    Since I'm not even sure he's got my vote...

    Parent
    It doesn't bother me that he isn't a (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:35:36 PM EST
    Pacifist or consistently anti-war. If he wins the nomination it would be damned hard to win the general if those things were true.

    It doesn't bother me that he didn't serve in Vietnam either. Bill Clinton didn't, George W Bush didn't, Dick Cheney didn't, Joe Biden didn't...damn it Hillary didn't either:)

    Parent

    A conscientious objector, under the law (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Peter G on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:54:09 PM EST
    as it stood at the time of the Vietnam War (and today), was (and is) not eligible for classification unless he was opposed on grounds of religion (or moral beliefs equivalent to religion) to participation in war in any form. Political objections did not and do not qualify. Objections to a particular war did not and do not qualify. Objections to "unjust" wars while being willing to fight in a "just war" (per Catholic theology, for example) do not qualify. I do not know anything about how Sanders expressed himself in his application for CO classification, but it may have foundered on one of these limitations. That said, many, many people find that their beliefs, including their sincere religious beliefs, evolve substantially -- or even change radically, as in a conversion experience -- from the time they are 18 or 19 years old to the time they are in their 60s. That this may have happened does not reflect adversely on the person's sincerity at either age.

    Parent
    Yup, a few active duty went to (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:23:16 PM EST
    Leavenworth when they refused to deploy for Iraq but said they would deploy for Afghanistan instead. That was really a rough time. Almost makes me wonder if the Bushies didn't have those two fronts taking place concurrently to avoid that contentious objector snarl that could have begun depleting their troops after yr 1. But now I'm accusing the Bush administration of a certain form of competency and having the ability to successfully plan for upcoming obstacles. That's probably a bridge too far. Sometimes frauds and losers just get lucky.

    Parent
    Conscientious :) (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:27:50 PM EST
    I understand where you are coming from (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:17:52 PM EST
    I really do. Last week at a family PTSD briefing here a psychologist said that in his view, with all of the soldiers he has dealt with, after 10+ yrs of war they all have some degree of PTSD now. I have thought that and expressed that opinion myself for the last couple of years.

    Everyone processes stress differently though, and any time we find ourselves at war I do not need those who can't volunteer to fight. They usually come home so much more damaged if they are able to make it home at all. The country either ends up having to care for them all of their lives and they live in misery, or they suicide and the country must deal with those scars and that damaged family too. It's not worth it in my book. War is already going to be bad for everyone's psyche, I don't need to sacrifice the unwilling psyche on an alter.

    And when you are fighting for your life, you don't want the person next to you reluctant to fight. Nobody makes it home alive then.

    When we have real enemies, we have plenty of volunteers. The minute Obama pulled out of Iraq, soldiers who had left the line unsigned reupped for Afghanistan. Our troop numbers immediately surged.

    I cannot and will not consider Sanders a pacifist though either because he voted for the war in Bosnia. A pacifist does not make that vote.

    Parent

    You Are Projecting... (none / 0) (#28)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:16:39 PM EST
    ...your views onto the public at large.  I can't imagine something so minor will matter when you consider how many politicians avoided the draft for one reason or another.

    Vietnam isn't even a real event to many voters lives, like myself, and I am 45 and a veteran of a foreign war.  Personally, I am sick of leaders who want to fight first and then figure it out after.  A guy who objects to war on moral grounds sounds like a guy I can, and might, get behind.  While a lifelong D, Bush I handled a war IMO the way it should be handled, in an out with less loss of life than had we not went to Kuwait.

    I am curious if his conscientious objector status was denied, then he actually served ?

    Parent

    He didn't serve (none / 0) (#30)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:20:31 PM EST
    By the time they processed and rejected his conscientious objector status he was too old for the draft.

    Parent
    Statement of Bernie Sanders (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:34:26 PM EST
    After voteing in favor of a military response in Afghanistan:

    "I believe that that the United States should have the strongest military in the world.  We should be working with other countries in coalition.  And when people threaten the United States or threaten our allies, or commit genocide, the United States, with other countries, should be prepared to act militarily."

    Link

    And as the article indicates, Bernie has nothing on his website about foreign policy or national security, but he says he'll "address that later."

    Link

    Parent

    I'm not sure (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:13:57 PM EST
    how that one will play at all.

    Parent
    I hadn't research that (none / 0) (#35)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:35:00 PM EST
    but it sounds to me like he walked that delicate line very well. That's better than 5 deferments or a pilonidal cyst. Way better.

    I don't see a problem here.

    Parent

    You're going against the narrative (none / 0) (#13)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:25:56 AM EST
    here.
    Bernie CAN win a general election. But there are things that must be done in order to do it.
    I think he can, too. I agree with your second sentence as much as your first.

    Heads here might explode though because ... Bernie's supporters. Or something. Oh, and the "but he calls himself a Socialist" hand wringing.

    I think with Trump in the picture (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    Anything is possible as far as winning the general election goes.

    Parent
    Lordy (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:04:18 PM EST
    Ain't that a fact.

    Parent
    What (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:32:48 PM EST
    happens if Trump isn't the nominee? That is a big question.

    Parent
    He doesn't have to be (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:38:29 PM EST
    the nominee to have an effect. You might not have noticed the effect he has already had because ... DKos... but that jacka$$ is getting more coverage and buzz than anyone else. At least here. He isn't leaving any breathing room for people to create the faux scandal of "Socialist!!!"

    Parent
    Heck (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    a lot of people aren't even still paying attention.

    Parent
    And yet (none / 0) (#109)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:23:27 PM EST
    His antics are mentioned at least 3 times a week on the morning news/traffic/weather show that I watch. So whether people are paying attention or not is completely moot.

    They are getting spoon fed whether they will or no.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:43:55 PM EST
    very true when it comes to Trump but are they listening to the political or treating it more like a reality show? I really don't know.

    Parent
    Maybe you don't know, but I do (none / 0) (#117)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:48:34 PM EST
    And they aren't treating it like a reality show. There is an occasional bit of smirking, but mostly they manage to hold on to the poker face and pretend that Trump is a Very Serious Person.

    Parent
    Frankly (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:50:26 PM EST
    I have given up cable news but I do know apparently Trump got a whole hour or so to himself the other night even on MSNBC. It's not a wonder Washington is so dysfunctional when you think about it.

    Parent
    The question (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:51:04 PM EST
    is if they are able to make a distinction between the two.

    Parent
    By "here" (none / 0) (#39)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 12:41:15 PM EST
    I meant "here" where I live my real life, not "here" TL. Sorry for not being clear.

    Parent
    If (none / 0) (#51)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:42:39 PM EST
    doing what he has to do to win involves such sloppy and simplistic items as calling Hugo Chavez a "communist dictator", I would have to wonder what he would have won if he wins.

    I am willing to take this quote with a hefty grain of salt since Sanders has praised the new British Labour party leader Jeremy Corbyn, which in this rightwing capitalist country, sadly, takes courage.

    Incidentally, or not so incidentally, the supposed link between Chavez and Sanders was Sanders helping to "negotiate the purchase of discounted heating oil from the Latin American country for a number of US states." Good for Sanders!

    I think that if Sanders keeps being Sanders, and focuses on things like income inequality he will win.

    If he starts to do what experts say he "has to do to win", he'll lose.


    If Senator Sanders is (none / 0) (#52)
    by KeysDan on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 01:47:57 PM EST
    not in it to win, he is doing the Democratic Party, and, more importantly, the country, a great disservice. The stakes are too great to merely derail the front runner out of Clinton pique and clear the way for the inauguration of any one of the dangerous Republican candidates.

    The senator's stock speech on "millionaires and billionaires," resonates and his left-ward domestic policies have impacted those of Mrs. Clinton. If it is a point to be made, he has made it.

    Sander's supporters ought to not only have confidence that Sanders can win the general election, but also, be prepared, as Sanders too needs to be prepared, for the Republican onslaught.

     The misguided, but tepid, attack by a Clinton-friendly PAC is not even a warm-up for what would surely come if Sanders was the Democratic nominee.  If socialism and, even communism, are either unknown, yesteryear, or ancient history, depending on birthdays, those ideologies will be rekindled in a manner that would be unrecognizable to Marx.

     And, that would be just the beginning.  For those who favor the ideas of Sanders, the specter  of economic collapse in so doing will be the boogeyman. As the WSJ pointed out already, Sander's programs will cost "$18 trillion over ten years."   Of course, the biggest part was single payer health insurance that accounts for $15 trillion of it--and is not a cost on top of what we now spend, but rather, what we are already paying for, just a change in how to pay for it.  The Sander's campaign was slow to react, and seemed unprepared, if not surprised, at such a presentation of his ideas.

    And, then there will be the ugly and nasty, such as to his citizenship as harped on by NPR's Diane Rehms. And, although Trump's military experience is par excellence owing to his teenage years at a military boarding school for the unruly, Sanders can not expect the same teflon justifications and defense.

    It is futile to move from Mrs. Clinton to Senator Sanders because he will be immune from the familiar Clinton nothingburger attacks.  And, it is delusional to feel that Sanders can win the general election just because he says just what I think, and Mrs  Clinton is--well, Mrs. Clinton.
    .  .  

    The WSJ (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:20:23 PM EST
    piece was way worse for Bernie than anything David Brock did.

    Parent
    The way she inexhaustibly sucks up (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jondee on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:14:46 PM EST
    to AIPAC, I would think it was Hillary that had duel citizenship.

    Parent
    just so you know . . . (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:36:57 PM EST
    Hillary had nothing to do with the rumors of Bernie Sanders's alleged "dual citizenship," so i'm not sure why you've brought her up in this context

    the public voice behind that allegation about Bernie Sanders (although it was stated as fact) belongs to the Lebanese American radio talk show host Diane Rehm, mindlessly (i'm being charitable here) recycling the ancient anti-Semitic slander of Jews as "disloyal" citizens

    clearly there are still people who are all too ready to believe this vicious canard about Jews in general, if no longer about Bernie Sanders in particular, & one need not be Jewish (i'm not) to recognize this slander & call it out for what it is

    Parent

    Okay. (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:37:01 PM EST
    LOL. That made me laugh. Thanks :).

    But hey, it's worth 40 points over Bernie even with Biden in the race :)

    Parent

    Oops (none / 0) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 05:37:39 PM EST
    left out 40 points in Florida.

    Parent
    I believe the majority of Sander's (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:07:51 PM EST
    supporters support him because they believe in the issues that he is campaigning on and would like the country to move towards those policies.

    In the not so distant past, many of the GOP policies were considered impossible for their party to achieve. Now they are not only standard GOP fare but many have been adopted and passed into law. We have Democratic politicians and voters promoting the "past impossible" policies as the realistic and pragmatic policies to pursue.

    It is impossible for the U.S. to pass better, more people orientated legislation so long as we and our politicians never strongly promote and fight for that agenda. As long as we continue to state that those goals are impossible and  we settle for only corporate, right wing policies as the best we can do, it will be a self fulfilling prophecy and the best we can do will only diminish each year.  

    I doubt that many people who support Bernie believe that he is immune to attacks by the GOP and doubt many are surprised by the attacks by the Clinton PAC.

    OTOH, I consider it very hypocritical for some on this blog to consistently condemn Bernie's supporters for their negative remarks about HRC and then dismiss the Clinton PAC attacks as no big deal.    

    Parent

    IMO (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:15:39 PM EST
    my problem is the personality politics it's not criticizing anybody about the issues. I mean even this PAC thing seems to be about an issue like heating oil. Criticize Hillary all you want on the issues but most of the criticisms of her in some quarters are the same as saying that Bernie needs to comb his hair.

    Parent
    Your comment is a vast understatement (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 07:18:49 PM EST
    of what was contained in that email. Whether you agree or disagree or rationalize her vote to authorize military force in Iraq, that issue alone is more important than discussing Bernie's hair. Fear that her foreign policy will be too hawkish, is the most common reason stated by Democratic voters for lack of support. Once again, an issue more important than discussing Bernie's hair.

    Also, it would be real nice if you employed your stated criteria to your own comments,

    This is your standard fare when discussing Bernie and his supporters. Please, please identify the exact policy issue you were discussing in this comment regarding Sanders supporters:

    You know (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 09:10:01 AM CDT
    I like Bernie. His supporters at the Orange are doing him a great disservices. And if the same people that are over there are going out and talking to people the same way they are blogging they are certain to drive voters away. It's like a ton of Politikix over there.

    BTW, what are HRC's current positions on the issues. Last time I asked you that question, you did not know. According to you, she will have plenty of time to outline her positions in the months to come. That IMO seems to be a prime example of someone dealing in personality politics rather than basing their decisions on the issues.

    Parent

    And there it is folks (none / 0) (#132)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:48:39 PM EST
    The broad really, really annoying broad brush
    ...criticisms of her in some quarters...

    (hey christine! you want to address this as you did MO Blue?)

    that ordinarily pushes me right over to Bernie's site to donate. And right after I listened to his whole speech at Liberty University, too. But I've kind of pretty much overspent this pay period and it's going to have to wait.

    I guess I could wear the t-shirt...

    Seriously (and yes, I will seriously donate) I think he was pretty brave to go to Liberty, be the same person there that is he is everywhere, and give his POV. High marks to the students also who were pretty respectful. Even the comments are relatively free from trolling, although I only read the first 50 or so.

    Parent

    Some quarters (none / 0) (#133)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 06:59:19 PM EST
    is a broad brush? I would have thought "Sanders supporters" is a broad brush.

    Parent
    Okay you're right (none / 0) (#134)
    by sj on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 07:12:21 PM EST
    It really isn't a broad brush. It's a sly dig. I misspoke.

    Parent
    NPR interviewer of Sanders (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:04:35 PM EST
    confronts Sanders with a given--that he holds dual citizenship w/Israel. Based on a listener's suggested question, which stemmed from a comment the listener saw on FaceBook. Amazing.

    PS. Sanders is an "anchor baby" (Maybe.). [Snk.]

    Parent

    Yes, Miss Rehms (none / 0) (#61)
    by KeysDan on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:19:54 PM EST
    started with a statement, not a question.  Based on FaceBook.  The attacks do not have to be true, in fact all the better if false, because it requires putting out fires. And, fires leave embers.  

    Note on anchor babies.  Yes, such babies can be Hispanic (Trump and most Trumpettes) or, for the more "enlightened", Asian (Jeb!).  Sanders says no to Rehms, Obama said no to Kenya, and again, no.  But...  About, the only claim not made against Mrs. Clinton, but, the campaign is young.

    Parent

    but Hillary doesn't even have to be (none / 0) (#73)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:17:18 PM EST
    turned into a socialist

    she's already an "Alinskyite," like our Kenyan Muslim president & his sidekick Bill Ayers</s>

    Parent

    I think it's worth mentioning here (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by CST on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:46:18 PM EST
    That the scary black muslim socialist candidate with terrorist friends on the left - won, twice.

    Parent
    This is an overused trope (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:56:28 PM EST
    having some lunatic right wingers call you a socialist is not the same this as self identifying as a socialist.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:46:41 PM EST
    by the same token the same people called Bill Clinton a communist. That means we should run a self described communist for president.

    Parent
    maybe against a Jeb Bush (none / 0) (#156)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:36:45 AM EST
    or a Rubio.

    But against Trump?

    I really think he changes the math to make a lot of things possible.  I'm trying to picture where a "moderate" goes in Trump vs. Bernie and I'm not seeing it.

    Parent

    Probably (none / 0) (#161)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 10:55:42 AM EST
    to Trump because in their minds Bernie is "going to take all their stuff" and outside of the immigration thing he doesn't seem hard right on social issues. I mean he even told Kim Davis she should do her job.

    Parent
    I dunno (none / 0) (#162)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 11:05:04 AM EST
    Personally I can actually see some of the Trump appeal.  If he wasn't such a blowhard sexist/racist @sshole, he's the least bad of the bunch on most policy issues.  And hell, he's talking about raising their taxes too.

    But I think a lot of moderates won't want a complete joke as president, he's a frikken birther.  Optics matter, I just don't know.  The "moderate Republicans" around here at least are losing it over this guy.

    I will say I'm 90% sure a lot of them would flip to Hillary at least.  And I think it's entirely plausible enough would stay home to let Bernie eek it out if he was the nominee.

    Parent

    These interviewers (none / 0) (#89)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:09:15 PM EST
    are without conscience and without morals in my opinion.

    Saying that they are clueless is too generous.
    They are cruel and stupid.
    Ambitious and greedy.
    Callous and ignorant.

    Among the issues we face are the constant threat of attacks from enemies which we continue to make.

    In addition, there is the reality of the widening gulf between the few who have all of the wealth, and the rest who are struggling to survive.

    So these interviewers focus on emails and Sanders being Jewish.

    They've got plenty of money, and they see the prospect of getting even more if divert us from the realities of our existence.

    Parent

    I agree MT (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 02:30:55 PM EST
    More harm than good.  Brock should go away.  

    This made me laugh-

    Christian columnist Chris Queen argued this week that Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders' anti-poverty proposals went against biblical teachings because the "God of the Bible is not a socialist."


    that is priceless (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:08:01 PM EST
    Yes, I guess the god of the bible had not yet read Marx. But wait, if he is all knowing, wouldn't he have picked a party?

    I know for sure hew is not a Cubs fan.

    Parent

    The God of The Bible... (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:23:50 PM EST
    reads to me like a practical joker of no particular political affiliations.  

    Now that Jesus character of the New Testament, pinko as they come!

    Parent

    Hey kdog, did you see (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by fishcamp on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:56:52 PM EST
    The Marlins Mets game last night?  Oh, sorry...

    Parent
    the best thing about Bernie (none / 0) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:06:09 PM EST
    "winning it" (which IMO is extremely unlikely) is that it's looks more every day that Donald is going to "win it".

    Bernie could definitely beat Donald.

    Bill Krustol and apparently others are now talking about supporting a third party if Donald should win.  Which is pretty funny considering the vapors a possible third party Donald run was giving them just a couple of weeks ago.

    Oh (none / 0) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:15:45 PM EST
    and the third party candidates he suggested?

    Dick Cheney/Tom Cotton.

    No, really.

    Parent

    Almost choked on the cereal I'm eating (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by vicndabx on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:28:27 PM EST
    Darth Vader was Morning Joe a few weeks back pushing the book talking about how good his heart was....

    Parent
    Should have provided a link (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 03:38:50 PM EST
    I wouldn't believe it either

    how much you want to bet Donald brings this up tonight after the big freakin deal they made of making him sign a pledge.

    Parent

    lord help us all (none / 0) (#154)
    by CST on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 09:29:56 AM EST
    that man will live forever.

    Parent
    Pull the ad (none / 0) (#88)
    by bison on Wed Sep 16, 2015 at 04:09:01 PM EST
    apologized for red baiting

    As a friend of Clinton (none / 0) (#191)
    by kdm251 on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 12:44:31 AM EST
    I feel it is my duty to announce that Bernie Sanders is very likely a Kenyan socialist Muslim

    But (none / 0) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 08:09:01 AM EST
    Can he dance?

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#194)
    by FlJoe on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 08:26:16 AM EST
    Socialist not socialist.

    Parent
    So it WASN'T a sincere question (none / 0) (#201)
    by sj on Fri Sep 18, 2015 at 02:48:00 PM EST
    But if this is a sincere question:

    If stating one's opinion equates with a "lecture," what can possibly be said in disagreement?
    I will attempt an answer:
    Instead, the question was just a way of making yourself into a poor, put upon commenter which is confirmed here:
    How we read & interpret things (none / 0) (#189)
    by christinep on Thu Sep 17, 2015 at 06:27:41 PM MDT

    If the patronizing-shoe fits, dear SJ,
    Kindly think about wearing it.

    Not to mention have zero reading comprehension -- if you even bothered to read it*:

    I put that shoe on myself in the very comment you are responding to. And now I'll go the next few weeks or months without responding to your self-victimization and/or word salad except with, possibly, ratings.

    You are, of course, free to do the same.

    -----
    * And I put paragraphs and white space and real words instead of symbols and everything.

    Links must be in html format (none / 0) (#202)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 01, 2015 at 07:21:22 PM EST
    or they skew the site. Comment deleted with overly long link.

    This thread is now closed.