home

Fourth of July Open Thread

As America celebrates Freedom and Independence today, here are some thoughts on what they mean.

Happy Fourth of July, everyone. I hope you all have a great day planned. When you return, please tell us about it.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Friday Open Thread | The Targeted Killings of the Al Harzi Brothers in Iraq and Syria >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Greece votes "No." Now what? (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 06:31:44 PM EST
    Paul Krugman explains why this result is a good thing:

    "[W]e have just witnessed Greece stand up to a truly vile campaign of bullying and intimidation, an attempt to scare the Greek public, not just into accepting creditor demands, but into getting rid of their government. It was a shameful moment in modern European history, and would have set a truly ugly precedent if it had succeeded."

    This manufactured crisis was certainly not German Chancellor Angela Merkel's finest hour. Given how Greece once forgave Germany's war debt as both a sign of good faith and a means to help the Germans get back on their feet, Merkel's bald attempt to strong-arm the Greek people into a state or perpetual economic subordination was truly heartless and shameful. We'll see what she does next in the wake of Greece's decisive rebuke of her efforts.

    Aloha.

    Manufactured? (1.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:10:57 AM EST

    The root cause of this mess is that Greece is consuming more wealth than if is creating. Greek government borrowing has been covering the difference more or less. Greece has now in Maggie Thatcher's famous phrase, "run out of other people's money."  

    Politically that is no surprise since it is a pretty tough sell to tell a German to work to 67 so a Greek can retire at 53.

    Parent

    The problem is that austerity (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:27:15 AM EST
    Delays and hinders, not helps, the economy of Greece.  It doesn't even help the private investors.  It's just ideology over a practical approach, pure and simple.

    Parent
    Austerity (2.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:24:57 AM EST

    Such an odd word to describe living within your means.  It seems the Greeks are unwilling to do even that and want more gifts (loans that will never be repaid) from the rest of Europe.

    Parent
    Someone should tell the Germans (none / 0) (#165)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:55:30 AM EST
    ...that Greece forgave Germany's debt after WW II.

    I'm sure they would feel differently if they knew that.

    Parent

    The tough austerity measures adopted thus far at the EU's behest have mired that country in its eighth consecutive year of economic contraction. The Greek economy shrank by 23% between 2008 and 2014, and anemic or no economic growth has been projected for 2015.

    Unemployment more than tripled in a five-year period, rising from 7·7% in 2008 to 24·3% in 2012, and long-term unemployment reached 14·4%. In a country where health care coverage is linked directly to employment, this has created a devastating health care crisis of rather tragic proportions.

    the austerity regime imposed upon the Greek people has left nearly one million of the country's 11.2 million citizens with no access to healthcare, which has led to soaring rates of infant mortality, HIV infection and suicide. Even malaria has made a return.

    Do try to educate yourself about what's actually happened here, Abdul, and don't just spew the latest talking points you heard on Fox News. Workers in Greece aren't retiring at age 53, and by repeating such mindless tripe, you guys on the right sound as clueless and heartless as German Chancellor Merkel.

    Were such measures to ever be inflicted upon you, you'd no doubt be squealing at such a high pitch that it's not even funny to consider.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Agree, Donald (none / 0) (#131)
    by christinep on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 06:58:19 PM EST
    Whatever form of "negotiation" they undertook, disciplinarian Merkel & buddies in the IMF may have found that they kicked too hard.  'Funny how the bankers can be so unforgiving monetarily when it is someone else's debt ... compared to their own financial missteps in England, Scotland, Germany, & the US in recent memory, for instance.

    Tomorrow, husband & I are going to the bank to buy some euros with our strong dollar (since we will be in euro currency countries later this summer.)

    Parent

    OTOH, christine, (none / 0) (#134)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:19:50 PM EST
    by the time you get to Greece, which you said you will be visiting, they may be on the drachma by then.

    Parent
    True (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by christinep on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:48:17 PM EST
    I was mostly trying to get a deflated euro now--since it appears to be falling--to spend in Italy on the way.  (When I said that to husband earlier today, he looked at me as if I was scavenging.  Well ... it will be interesting to see the short-term effect on EU's euro.)

    Parent
    Yes, I agree (none / 0) (#133)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:16:16 PM EST
    As I said to christinep, there has been a feeling in Greece that the Germany war debt owed to Greece, should now be repaid.  The Greeks may have forgiven that war debt, but if Germany is going to remain intransigent, then the war debt should be repaid.   But Merkel and the German government will not do this, I'm sure.
    Greece, if it exits the Eurozone, should also exit NATO, kick the NATO bases out of Greece, renounce the "agreements" that Greece has made with Turkey, because they were both NATO members, and then see what the he!! happens.  It may not be pretty.

    Parent
    It likely won't be pretty at all (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:32:42 PM EST
    A strong belief that the Greek banks will be gone (along with everyone's money) by the end of the day tomorrow.

    Parent
    That's for sure. (none / 0) (#140)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:08:44 PM EST
    Those who think otherwise tend to have awfully short memories. I was in 8th grade when the Greek military regime fomented a coup in Cyprus as a first step toward annexation, which prompted a Turkish invasion of that island nation and brought the region to the precipice of war. While a cease-fired brokered back then still remains in effect, northern Cyprus remains occupied by the Turkish Army, the island is divided and the issue has never been resolved to anyone's real satisfaction.

    Parent
    Oh, trust me on this (none / 0) (#145)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:25:00 PM EST
    The whole Cyprus division, with the Turkish Army still there in the north, has not been forgotten by the Greeks, and certainly not by the Greek Cypriots.
    What's the ancient curse?  "May you live in interesting times."
    Well, the times are indeed interesting, and not just in Greece and the Eurozone.

    Parent
    Congrats to the U.S. Women's Soccer (5.00 / 5) (#144)
    by caseyOR on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:52:19 PM EST
    team. They just beat Japan 5-2 to win the World Cup. This ends a 16 year World Cup drought for the U.S, women. The U.S. women have now won three World Cups, more than any other country.

    The U.S, was lead by Carli Lloyd's hat trick, the first ever in women' World Cup play, during the first half.

    Lloyd won the Golden Ball trophy for best player of the World Cup, and the Silver Foot, placing second to German player Sasic in scoring.

    Hope Solo once again won the Golden Glove for best goalkeeper of the tournament.

    This was the final World Cup for Abby Wambach who holds the record for most goals scored in international competition, man or woman.

    YEA, USA women!!!!!!!

    See you in France in four years.

    U.S. Women rule (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:04:24 AM EST
    They dominated from the first minutes of the game.

    Wonderful to watch.

    Parent

    Engaging with jim has resulted in him (5.00 / 4) (#194)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:27:35 AM EST
    making 30 - so far - of the 191 comments in this thread.  And almost none of them serve to educate, inform or even entertain.

    Here's what I know: we can refute and rebut and counter and contradict the utter BS jim posts here until our fingers bleed, and it isn't going to change anything.  The more we hoist jim on his own petard, the more ridiculous his arguments get.

    Reading his comments and trying to parse his whacked-out logic is an exercise in futility and frustration.

    I won't say I will never engage him again, but I'm going to do my best to ignore him.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it less bothersome not to read or comment here at all when jim's in the house, but if you're seeing less of me and more of jim, that's why.

    Howdy's not at a right-leaning conservative site (5.00 / 3) (#207)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    trolling and railing about how "you Christians and religionists" want their way all the time..

    And btw, you religious right folks need to make up your minds - in tandem, as you always do - about whether or not "secularism" and "secular traditions" are one of this country's strengths or not. After every vicious attack by religious fanatics, conservatives generally like to celebrate secularism as one of this country's great traditons..

    this thread is closed (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 12:00:04 AM EST
    Sniping comments have been deleted as have comments calling people illegal.

    We have come along way from Billy Pitt (none / 0) (#1)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 05:32:06 AM EST

    Now days minions of the government can use civil forfeiture to seize the whole ruined tenement, lock, stock, and barrel.

    lol. very droll. most of those ruined (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:18:31 AM EST
    tenements are owned by some rich bozo.  There's lots of money to be made slumlording.  One such slumlord (Tony Rezko) figured prominently in the '08 campaign.  AFAIK, he never went down for that particular evil, which resulted only in long sequences of civil actions.

    Donald Trump and his daddy made a bunch of money in the biz.  Daddy Fred Trump's wiki entry labels it "affordable rental housing."  No doubt someone vigorously tends to the editing of that entry.

    Parent

    Most of the forfeitures... (none / 0) (#89)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 10:06:43 AM EST
    ...are from those that are certainly not rich. The rich can afford the legal talent to contest a forfeiture, those of more modest means not so much.

    Parent
    Like Donald Sterling (none / 0) (#90)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 10:12:23 AM EST
    who lost his discrimination cases the Feds brought against him over his housing policies?

    Good point.

    Parent

    With all due respect, ... (none / 0) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:17:38 PM EST
    ... Abdul has a point. Donald Sterling has been the exception, and not the rule -- and that was only because the case was so egregious, and the defendant so defiant and unrepentant, that to have ruled in his favor would've been unthinkable.

    Parent
    Happy fourth! (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:05:34 AM EST
    this year I planned ahead and got some doggie Valium.

    Around here there are a few "quiet" 4ths (none / 0) (#13)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:40:04 AM EST
    planned.  Apparently, people who've been in combat, especially those with PTSD, aren't fond of fireworks, which in the words of one Marine, sound exactly like mortar rounds.


    Parent
    Boom (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:01:17 PM EST
    Here's the government's horrifying new fireworks safety demonstration

    I'm trying hard to hope none of this happens to any of the neighborhood yahoos.  Real hard.

    I'm close to popping a couple of those doggie Valium.

    Parent

    video simulation above (none / 0) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:35:41 PM EST
    Devon Staples was in a friend's backyard in the eastern Maine city of Calais, near the Canadian border, when he placed a fireworks mortar on his head and set it off, Maine State Police told the Portland Press Herald.

    The explosion caused a head injury that killed Staples instantly.



    Parent
    If he had no children (none / 0) (#118)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:02:46 PM EST
    he's qualified for a Darwin Award.

    Parent
    Some Friends Purchased... (none / 0) (#169)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:19:06 AM EST
    ...collars that release pheromones that calm dogs down.

    I was around the dogs and we could see the fire works, maybe a block away and the dogs were fine.  I don't know if they work as I haven't been around the dogs w/o them but I am going to try them out.

    Parent

    Not all dogs are bothered (none / 0) (#201)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:50:54 AM EST
    my golden doesn't seem to care much.   I took his downers.
    The two huskies hate it.  
    They are getting summer buzz cuts today.   I know they will be happy.  er.

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:33:36 AM EST
    Broad? as in thousands, we can hope (none / 0) (#8)
    by Palli on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:28:29 AM EST
    When that's done we can move onto political prisoners that are more democratic than their prosecutors.

    Parent
    The story I read said "dozens" (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peter G on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:50:18 AM EST
    unfortunately, not thousands.

    Parent
    The way that read (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:56:31 AM EST
    it seemed like there might be a larger number than people are expecting.

    We can hope.

    Parent

    That would be lovely (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by sj on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:04:18 AM EST
    He has been quite stingy with his pardons so far. And in the detailed list (which appears to be incomplete, btw):
    • Of those whose sentencing date was listed, only one was still incarcerated.
    • Most of those pardoned had a sentence consisting mostly of probation.

    I mean seriously? A few years of probation in the 60s, 70s and 80s? He really stuck his neck out there.

    The NYT article states:

    In the next weeks, the total number of commutations for Mr. Obama's presidency may surpass 80...

    Well, looking that up was even more depressing than I expected; since he has apparently already pardoned or commuted the sentences of 61 people, it hardly seems like it was even worth an article.


    Parent

    Just read in Surfline.com, (none / 0) (#4)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 08:11:50 AM EST
    that Marcus Mariota, the Hawaiian born quarterback that played for the University of Oregon, is balking at his $20M contract offer from the Tennessee Titans, due to a no surfing clause.  It went on to say while he was not a famous surfer, or big wave rider, he does like to surf.  I knew the NFL does not want their players to ski, or participate in other dangerous sports, but this is the first surfing ban I've heard about.  He says his agent will work it out.  Maybe they will let him boogey board on Waikiki Beach waves at low tide only.

    Safer than boating on the Suwnee River (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:33:19 PM EST
    due to leaping sturgeon. Gawd, who knew life is so fraught?

    Parent
    For $20 million, I'd probably forgo surfing. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 06:08:00 PM EST
    But seriously though, surfing is a much safer sport than football or even the aforementioned skiing. Personally, I think the Titans are actually being very unreasonable, especially with a Hawaiian like Marcus Mariota.

    Surfing is not just sport for Native Hawaiians, but is an important cultural identity issue and touchstone for them as well. This is something that could easily cause Mariota to hold out or worse, so Titans management needs to stop being so haole about it.

    Bcause otherwise, Mariota could decide that money isn't everything and the NFL really isn't all that important to him, and walk away. He does have that option, and he's got a lot of family and friends out here who would support him if he chooses to exercise it. It's not like he doesn't have anywhere else to go. He could return home and find something else to do, and there's always the CFL in Canada.

    Seriously, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a much-sought Hawaiian player decided to blow an NFL team off due to a contractual impasse, and instead head north of the border, where there will be a few teams in Canada willing to let him surf.

    The Titans ought to reconsider their demand. Aloha.

    Parent

    This is kicking around on the 'net (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:53:19 AM EST
    Kinda puts things in perspective.

    Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56
    men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

    Their story. Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

    Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.

    Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary
    Army; another had two sons captured.

    Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.

    They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

    What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists.

    Eleven were merchants. Nine were farmers and plantation (farmers)owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

    Carter Braxton of Virginia, a planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts,and died in rags.

    Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

    Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton,Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

    At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

    Francis Lewis had his home and  properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife,and she was tortured and died within a few months.

    John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.



    Not to take anything away from the signers , but (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:27:50 AM EST

    It is true that five signers of the Declaration of Independence were captured by the British during the course of the Revolutionary War. However, none of them died while a prisoner, and four of them were taken into custody not because they were considered "traitors" due to their status as signatories to that document, but because they were captured as prisoners of war while actively engaged in military operations against the British.

    George Walton was captured after being wounded while commanding militia at the Battle of Savannah in December 1778, and Thomas Heyward, Jr., Arthur Middleton, and Edward Rutledge (three of the four Declaration of Independence signers from South Carolina) were taken prisoner at the Siege of Charleston in May in 1780. Although they endured the ill treatment typically afforded to prisoners of war during their captivity (prison conditions were quite deplorable at the time), they were not tortured, nor is there evidence that they were treated more harshly than other wartime prisoners who were not also signatories to the Declaration. Moreover, all four men were eventually exchanged or released; had they been considered traitors by the British, they would have been hanged.

    Richard Stockton of New Jersey was the only signer taken prisoner specifically because of his status as a signatory to the Declaration, "dragged from his bed by night" by local Tories after he had evacuated his family from New Jersey, and imprisoned in New York City's infamous Provost Jail like a common criminal.

    You can read more at http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp#szGCWfJb4IcLjrDy.99

    Parent

    Molly Bloom, you are a treasure! (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 01:59:03 PM EST
    Well there is definitely an opposing viewpoint (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 02:38:09 PM EST
    But thank you anyway...  

    Parent
    Molly, thanks for proving my point (2.00 / 2) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:34:04 AM EST
    That is so old (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by sj on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:07:02 AM EST
    Prove your own point, why don't you?

    Parent
    "Pricing your point" (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Yman on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:19:29 AM EST
    You mean proving that you're posting a mixture of true/FALSE information?

    Happens daily...

    Parent

    That is So Funny... (5.00 / 3) (#189)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:12:01 AM EST
    ...even on things that aren't partisan today, Jim seems to still dig up inaccurate information or since it isn't sourced, made up his own revision.

    Parent
    If you say so Jim (none / 0) (#12)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:37:23 AM EST
    Have a safe and happy 4th.

    That goes for everyone here as well.  

    Parent

    Molly, thanks for proving my point (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:34:04 AM EST
    Last night a historian on one of the NPR (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:37:16 AM EST
    shows mentioned that some Loyalists/Tories in the South continued fighting the war long after Yorktown.  Many eventually fled to Canada.

    Parent
    And to this day, their descendents proudly (none / 0) (#14)
    by Peter G on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:49:37 AM EST
    display the Loyalist battle flag, but only as a sign of their Southern heritage, is that it?

    Parent
    Interesting piece on NPR. (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 01:59:53 PM EST
    Correction (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 12:01:01 PM EST
    "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

    In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

    In 1954,in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."



    The insertion of "under God" (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by Peter G on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:49:08 PM EST
    into the Pledge after "one Nation" resulted from a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, a conservative Catholic men's organization. It makes the political claim - which I would say is historically false - that the essential difference between the United States and the Communist Soviet Union of the 1950s is that the U.S. system is premised on a belief in the Biblical God (which is Jewish as well as Christian, btw). Congress's insertion of that language into the Pledge pre-dates by about a decade the view of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause (official neutrality among religions as well as between religion and non-religion) that is now generally accepted. The phrase was taken from the Gettysburg Address, which was delivered for the dedication of a military cemetery. It was typical of Lincoln's (inspired) rhetoric to invoke divine authority in support of the Union cause.

    Parent
    True enough,Howdy (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 05:44:34 PM EST
    But tell me. Why do you object? Why not show some tolerance and diversity? You know, let the Christians have their God. Why does the words "under God" bother you?

    Parent
    I didn't realize the Christians owned (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by nycstray on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 06:29:42 PM EST
    the pledge . . .  when did that happen?

    Parent
    ... and then demand royalties for the use of quotations from the Bible, if they thought they could get away with it.

    Parent
    Show tolearance and divesity (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:15:50 PM EST
    and make all the kids everywhere recite the pledge according to what these "Christians."

    My favorite Supreme Court case, West Virginia v. Barnette, held that you could not students recite the pledge...Authored by Justice Jackson who later took leave from the Court to prosecute the Nazis.

    That version of the pledge was the earlier pre-under god version.

    Parent

    Schools exist to create citizens (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:24:23 PM EST
    in that we seem to have forgotten that the country will become someone else's.

    We can hope that the new owners treat the original owners as well as they were treated.

     

    Parent

    Yep. (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 05:47:49 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "We can hope that the new owners treat the original owners as well as they were treated."

    And just look at how well they treated others forty years ago.

    Parent

    Forty years ago?? (2.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 12:00:41 PM EST
    You can find 10X as many (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 12:19:17 PM EST
    pages wishing Obama dead, Jim.  Selective outrage over a few nuts on the Leftie side of things or one Leftie group in LA over 4 years ago doesn't prove much.

    And talking about intolerance:

    Latinonado? Ann Coulter warns that Mexicans are more dangerous than sharks

    Link

    Huckabee defends calling Jay Z a `pimp' -- but says `nothing is unforgivable' for Josh Duggar

    Link

    Thousands in South Carolina receive menacing Confederate flag robocall over Independence Day weekend

    Yes, Jim, the right is more tolerant as long as you're not a Mexican, you're a child molester but you've been both forgiven by Jesus and Mike Hucklebee, and the robocalls were just an example of Southern Hospitality.

    Thanks for helping us understand this complex issue.


    Parent

    Next thing I know you'll be (2.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:38:29 PM EST
    bringing up the Westboro baptists.

    lol

    Everybody understands Coulter and Hucklebee and the robocalls seem to be in line with that ole First Amendment you see to selectively embrace.

    Parent

    Nah, Rick Santorum (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:54:49 PM EST
    Says it better then they could, and unlike them, he's running for the Presidential nomination:

    Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum declared over the weekend that all undocumented immigrants had "bad intent" when they came into the United States.

    Speaking to CBS host John Dickerson on Sunday, Santorum said that he disagreed with Donald Trump's assertion that Mexico was sending "rapists" across the border.

    "The vast majority of people coming legally from Mexico and other places are people who want to do the right thing," Santorum observed. "People who are coming illegally obviously are coming with a bad intent. Let's just be honest, they coming with the clear intent of breaking the law."

    Another brainiac contender:

    Huckabee's understanding of the U.S. Constitution seemed muddled, as he argued that the Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage was "an out-of-control act of unconstitutional judicial tyranny." Overwrought with emotion, Huckabee must have forgotten that Article III of the U.S. Constitution specifically assigns judicial power to the Supreme Court. In his diatribe Huckabee ignores the constitutional provision granting the court judicial authority, by arguing:
    America didn't fight a revolution against the tyranny of one unelected monarch so we could surrender our religious liberty to the tyranny of five unelected lawyers. The Supreme Court is not the Supreme Being, and the Court can no more repeal the laws of nature and nature's God on marriage than they can the laws of gravity.

    Jim, the point is the extremism of Coulter, the robocalls, not their unquestionalble 1st Amendment rights, which both Santorum and Huckabee have, the latter of course, trying to explain unlawful actions on his part and why they aren't, not that there's anything wrong with that.

    Oh, I see, you thought that I was making a list of people who shouldn't be protected.

    It would be idiotic of you to interprete it that way. I don't think you're that stupid, it's a tactic you return to when the argument isn't going your way, and it probably does a lot to discredit your attempts at setting the terms of the discussion here.

    Have a good day, Jim. Try not to let the Diversity industry spoil it for you.

    Parent

    Ah so if I am not "that stupid" (none / 0) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:34:19 AM EST
    then it follows that I must be "some stupid."

    Your ability to slur is well demonstrated.

    But on to what you are weak at, your ability to prove a point.

    I'm not a fan of Santorum but let's look at what he said:

    "The vast majority of people coming legally from Mexico and other places are people who want to do the right thing," Santorum observed. "People who are coming illegally obviously are coming with a bad intent. Let's just be honest, they coming with the clear intent of breaking the law."

    Yes, entering the country illegally is breaking the law. And that's a fact you want to change because you are an open border supporter.

    He goes on to say.

    "I don't think we can sugarcoat that, but that doesn't mean everyone who's coming across is a rapist or a murderer or anything else," he opined. "But they are breaking the law, and I think Donald points to a very important thing, which is, we have a serious problem of illegal immigration in this country that is undermining American workers."

    Now I know you want the price of having your yard work done kept low. And as long as employers are supplied an endless supply of workers that cannot do anything but accept whatever the "man" wants to pay them you will get that.

    How anyone who claims to be a liberal can support such an anti-labor position is beyond me.

    And then we have the SF murderer demonstrating why The Donald is rocketing to the top of the approval list.

    And why are you bring Huckabee's position on gay marriage up?? Time and again I have written I am for gay marriage so why do you think I will support him?

    Could it be you want to slur me by false claims of association?

    Why yes. Yes it is.

    As for Huckabee and Duggar, from your link.

    "What I was standing by was the fact that there were innocent people, including his sisters and others, the victims, who were exposed, humiliated," Huckabee opined. "And there was no sense in which their concerns and their own dignity was respected. I found that the process by which this was released, it was utterly illegal."

    "So was I standing by someone who did something wrong? No," he continued. "I said that what he did was absolutely unconscionable, but nothing is unforgivable."

    So let me see, he insulted Jay Z, which his First Amendment right according to you..of course Jay Z can sue...notes that the victims names were released illegally and then.....GASP!!!!!!!!!!... notes that within the Christian faith nothing is unforgivable.

    Wow

    BTW, can you point out where he did anything illegal??

    Now, let's look at what Coulter said. Again from your link.

    During an interview on Fox News, Coulter argued that Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump's controversial assertion that immigrants were rapists had been vindicated because a because the suspect in a recent San Francisco killing was an undocumented immigrant who had been deported five times.

    "I'm dying to know if Jeb Bush attacks Donald Trump for his comments the actual day [Kate Steinle] was murdered by an illegal immigrant or the next day," she quipped. "I'm gathering he won't be speaking at her funeral."

    I agree that pointing out the SF murder is just sooooooooo inolerant... (Sarcasm alert)

    BTW - In his announcement Trump claimed that 80% of the females entering the US from the south had been raped. He further claimed to have a study that showed it to be true. Should those statistics be ignored?

    But the fun one is this.

    "You know, going into this weekend, the media was consumed with stories, Americans have to be on the lookout for ISIS attacks and terror attack expected, and oh, shark attacks," Coulter declared. "I will bet you by the end of the weekend, more Americans will have been killed by Mexicans than by ISIS or by sharks."

    I don't have the scorecard but with SF at the top of the list she appears right.

    Now you all have a nice day, now, Ya hear!?

    Parent

    What you don't know (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:39:04 AM EST
    Crossing the border isn't a criminal offense,  it is an administrative offense, but that's besides the point.

    As for insults, quit being so testy, sensitive, and thinking you're the only one whose opinion is worth anything around here.

    As for the rest of your billingsgate, it is of such poor quality that I'm almost starting to feel sorry for your inadequate responses around here.

    Emphasis on the almost.

    Parent

    Cross the border illegally is (none / 0) (#193)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:26:10 AM EST
     
    Each year the Border Patrol apprehends hundreds of thousands of aliens who flagrantly violate our nation's laws by unlawfully crossing U.S. borders. Such illegal entry is a misdemeanor, and, if repeated after being deported, becomes punishable as a felony.

    Link

    Yes, misdemeanors are crimes. Your attempt to white wash the millions who are invading us reminds me of your understanding of what "homicide" meant.

    In the meantime, the young lady in SF lies in her grave because of our failure to enforce our laws.

    Parent

    "Invading us"!!! (none / 0) (#197)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:45:08 AM EST
    Dear gawd, Jim, grab the Depends!

    Parent
    I love my country absolutely and unconditionally, and I accept her fully for what she truly is, flaws, faults, warts and all -- whereas you're simply lusting after her heavily airbrushed centerfold spread.

    Adios, muchacho viejo.

    Parent

    Donald, if you actually do (1.50 / 2) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:39:35 AM EST
    then why are did you vote for Obama??

    I mean he was the "Hope and Change" candidate.

    It appears that you have been caught in an embarrassing contradiction.

    Parent

    Why are I do this? (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:04:02 AM EST
    why are did you vote for Obama??

    It's not like there was a lot to choose from.  Apparently you forgot that Mr. Obama was not running against Jesus, he ran against McCain and Romney.  

    Considering the options and reflecting on the damage caused by eight years of GW Bush, how hard was it to vote for Obama?

    How is it you didn't notice that the country is in much better shape after six years of Obama than after six years of Bush?

    Parent

    Let's see, withdrawal from Iraq (none / 0) (#164)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:42:52 AM EST
    Millions of Americans now with health insurance, recovery from the hole the economy was in by the end of 2008, unemployment half what it was then......

    I dunno about DFH, but that would seem like some pretty good changes to me.

    Parent

    Recovery?? Millions lost insurance (none / 0) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:31:00 AM EST
    and Obama cut and run...any President can end a war like that.

    BTW - The workforce participation is at/near the levels it was in '76.

    Try this. Divide 14, the number of people looking for work, by 2. The result is 7. Now change 14 to 10.....and lookie here.... The new number is 5..

    As is said. Figures don't lie but liars can figure...

    Parent

    Any president can "cut and run" (none / 0) (#196)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:44:55 AM EST
    Including your boy GW, who required us to "cut and run" by signing the SOFA.  

    You must be very upset with him and his supporters.

    Parent

    And putting God back in the Pledge (none / 0) (#51)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:49:09 PM EST
    helped us fight Godless Communism in the 50s, and it will help us against the waves of jihadists that would make this nation their own,

    some people say.

    Parent

    As the man said (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:17:34 PM EST
    Can't hurt.

    Parent
    Can't hurt (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 12:32:19 AM EST
    of course.  Why didn't I see it?  The obvious solution to dealing to lunatics who fanatically believe they are serving God is more opposing fanatics who believe they are serving God.

    Parent
    Here's a quote about God from (none / 0) (#83)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:12:12 AM EST
    Thomas Jefferson:

    Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there is one, He must more approve the homage of Reason,  than that of blindfolded Fear.  



    Parent
    Since you like Jefferson (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:40:50 AM EST
    The god who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."

    And one of my favs:

    "It is an axiom in my mind that our liberty can never be safe but in the hands of the people themselves, and that too of the people with a certain degree of instruction. This it is the business of the state to effect, and on a general plan." - Jefferson to George Washington, January 4,


    Parent
    Some of the founding fathers (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:44:44 AM EST
    Had some good thoughts, didn't they?

    "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people build a wall of separation between Church & State."
    - Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Danbury Baptists (1802)

    "To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
    - Thomas Paine, The American Crisis No. V (1776)

    "Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry."
    - Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom (1779)

    "Christian establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."
    - James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr. (1774)

    "There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
    - George Washington, address to Congress (1790)

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
    - James Madison, General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia (1785)



    Parent
    Can't Hurt ? (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:49:44 AM EST
    Funny.

    Can't hurt if you stopped posting here.  If this is the new standard when making decisions can we assume you will leave.

    Parent

    Ah, you believe in word magic. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:53:49 PM EST
    Putting God in the Pledge doesn't do anything but throw a bone out to people who wouldn't be satisfied until there's a cross on every street corner and all the churches are packed on Sunday.

    And it also destroys the original authors' intend, who was, I may remind you, a Christian himself.  But you know more about it than him.  Why am I not surprised?

    Now, if you heard someone substituting Allah in the Pledge, instead, well, they'd have to be jihadists, right?

    Parent

    I think the Pledge should be made (none / 0) (#68)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:47:14 PM EST
    consistent with the Declaration of Independence: "...One Nation, under the Creator....."....because we should all become Deists like the Founders....No personal saviors there...

    Parent
    Because we are not (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by Anne on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:55:20 PM EST
    "one nation, under God;" this country does not have a religion, and all of its people do not worship or believe in God.

    I know you think it matters that "the majority" of the people do, or that the majority of the people are Christian, but the funny thing about majorities is that they don't always stay the same.  I cannot fathom that your trust in the majority would continue if, say, the majority was Muslim, or Jewish, or Hindu.  

    No one's taking God away from the Christians; the beauty of this country is that each of us can have the God we want, or have no God at all, and it neither makes any of us less a citizen any more than it makes this less of a nation.

    Oh, and showing some tolerance and diversity is something you should consider practicing yourself before you advise or lecture anyone else to.

    Parent

    If you (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 10:15:10 AM EST
    really wanted to address this
    Why not show some tolerance and diversity?  
    would have to rotate the words "under God" on a daily basis. Under God, under Satan, under Vishnu, under Gaia, under $.......... Maybe just employ a random deity generator every morning to insure diversity, allow all comers to promote tolerance.

    Parent
    Ah yes, Diversity (2.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:08:34 PM EST
    But what does diversity mean?

    In the beginning there were "Equal Rights."

    No thinking person could be against that. And that became the law of the land.

    Then the Left decided that it was impossible for minorities to have equal rights because they had been left out of society's fabric. Thus it was decreed that colleges admit X percent of minorities. Corporations were told that their workforce must reflect the percentages of the various groups surrounding their factories. And to be inclusive, women were included.

    Now, the issue for Jane and Joe Sixpack wasn't equality. It was seeing opportunities that had been reserved for them, disappear.

    Needless to say, Joe and Jane weren't happy.

    So a new word was needed. A word that could disguise what was happening. And yes, that word was Diversity.

    Of course Diversity doesn't mean individual Equal Rights. It means group "Group Rights."

    In the name of equality we must have inequality.

    All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. - Orwell

    We now find ourselves on the horns of a dilemma.

    To eliminate the Old Evil we have created a New Evil.

    And no one knows what the outcome will be. But it appears that to save democracy we must destroy it.

    Parent

    et al (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:28:04 PM EST
    Then the Left decided that it was impossible for minorities to have equal rights because they had been left out of society's fabric.

    You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: 'now, you are free to go where you want, do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.' You do not take a man who for years has been hobbled by chains, liberate him, bring him to the starting line of a race, saying, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe you have been completely fair... This is the next and more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity--not just legal equity but human ability--not just equality as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and as a result.

        LBJ in the Commencement Address at Howard University on June 4, 1965 on affirmative action

    Thanks for revealing what you're really all about.

    Now, the issue for Jane and Joe Sixpack wasn't equality. It was seeing opportunities that had been reserved for them, disappear.

    Yeah, because before they could count on minority groups being excluded from consideration for their jobs.

    And no one knows what the outcome will be. But it appears that to save democracy we must destroy it.

    It's funny that you borrow a phrase from the Vietnam War that was meant to defend it, considering the source and all that.

    Keep trying to rewrite history, Jim.  You still don't have anything about betrayal and all the usual Stormfront crap, but the undertones are there.

    Parent

    What I am about is telling the truth (2.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:32:09 PM EST
    And you agree with what I wrote because of what you quote.

    Of course you won't admit it.

    And you leave out..

    Needless to say, Joe and Jane weren't happy.

    So a new word was needed. A word that could disguise what was happening. And yes, that word was Diversity.

    Of course Diversity doesn't mean individual Equal Rights. It means group "Group Rights.

    Of course we can't have a discussion because you won't recognize that equal rights and group rights are mutually exclusive.

    My question is, how shall we save one while insisting on the other??

    The obvious answer is "equal rights."

    But you, and the Left, are not for equal rights. You are for group rights. Something you supposedly hated when the other side had them.

    Parent

    Amidst (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:12:59 PM EST
    all your jabberwocky is a nugget of truth:
    Now, the issue for Jane and Joe Sixpack wasn't equality. It was seeing opportunities that had been reserved for them, disappear
    Opportunity for me but not for thee is inequality writ large, to you it's no harm no foul.

    Of course Joe and Jane were unhappy they used to be one of the "more equal animals". Why are you so unhappy Jim?

    Parent

    FlJoe, please quit making things up (2.00 / 1) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:23:40 AM EST
    No where have I written approval for Jane and Joe.

    Indeed, what I have done is state an observable fact. Many were unhappy. Some remain unhappy. See Charleston.

    What you are really saying is that Affirmative Action is proper.

    I think it was proper at one time. Some 65 years or so later, no.

    But yet Diversity is continuing to be sold as the answer to providing Affirmative Action.


    Parent

    You were clearly sympathetic (none / 0) (#173)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:35:31 AM EST
    towards their 'plight'.

    Parent
    No need to (none / 0) (#186)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:01:21 AM EST
    make stuff up, your own words are quite clear
    So a new word was needed. A word that could disguise what was happening. And yes, that word was Diversity.............To eliminate the Old Evil we have created a New Evil.
    you obviously think diversity is evil, ergo you must think non-diversity is virtuous.

    Parent
    Yes, government mandated diversity (none / 0) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:12:31 AM EST
    is an evil because it separates people into groups.

    And you do make things up. I did not say I was sympathetic towards Joe and Jane.  

    Parent

    ... toward non-Christians and non-believers back in 1954, when they unilaterally added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance? Is there really any doubt in anyone's mind at this point as to whose God we're talking about, whenever we recite those two words in that pledge?

    Are the lives of these so-called "Christians" really going to be rent truly asunder, if the text of the Pledge is amended again to once more reflect its secular origins? Maybe they really ought to consider reciprocating some of that tolerance which they're always demanding that others show them, and stop insisting that their religion is the true and only way.

    Otherwise, the only thing these hypocrites are doing right now is what they've always done in the past. They're wielding their "faith" (such as it is) as a rhetorical weapon, in order to justify whatever it happens to be that they want to do at the moment, some of which has been truly awful -- and quite frankly, still is.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I really like (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 06:45:14 PM EST
    the verbal economy of the original.

    Parent
    In 1954 the country was a very (2.00 / 1) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:16:33 PM EST
    large Christian majority.

    You secularists have been tolerated for years. Yet you can't return the favor??

    No, you can't.

    If this whole thing falls apart it will be because the radicals on the Left give the radicals on the right excuses to do what radicals do.

    Popper nailed it:

    "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."


    Parent
    You do not want "tolerance" (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:49:45 PM EST
    You want dominance.

    If conservatives cannot have their slant on religion accepted and inculcated by the government, then they are persecuted....

    Parent

    Sounds like social conservatives are (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by MKS on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:51:14 PM EST
    worried that payback is a b*tch.

    Parent
    et al (1.50 / 2) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:48:32 AM EST
    Mordiggian, I didn't think you would make my point, but you did,

    We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

    That confirms, expands and completes the first part.

    As someone noted the other day, some people are just looking for a reason to be insulted.

    The Christians want a creche on the courthouse lawn.

    That sends the Left into spasms of intolerance.

    The Christians want "under God" in the pledge.

    And Donald lectures us about "godless communism."

    I am sure you will find some suitable examples from the Right,

    I note that Popper made the point that if you shouldn't tolerate intolerance and Mordiggian demonstrates he hasn't the vaguest idea as to what Popper wrote.

    So I quote again.

    We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.


    Parent
    Not using the complete quote (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:03:43 AM EST
    Gives a different impression, Jim.

    As for the poor, poor persecuted Christians, they just want an expression of their faiths on public property paid for and maintained by taxpayers of all creeds, not just Christianity.

    Do I have to quote the 1st Amendment to you again?

    And the Christians shouldn't get their way about that and rewriting the Pledge, because the words of a fellow Christian aren't good enough for them, and not all schoolchildren are necessarily from a Christian, Jewish, or even Muslim family.

    Keep excusing why you cut off the quote, Jim.  And it's the Christianists who are being intolerant by asking special favors from the government "because they are in the majority"' despite the fact that in America, we usually don't subject the rights of others to a decision of the majority of the electorate.

    You don't have this Church-state thing right yet, Jim.  Your responses demonstrate that beyond all shadow of a doubt.

    Thanks for helping me out, Jim.

    Better luck next time.

    Parent

    Why is it always about what (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by Anne on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:29:52 AM EST
    the Christians want?  Why do you insist that everyone have tolerance and accede to what the Christians want, but the Christians don't ever seem to think they need to consider how anyone else feels?

    Why do Christians want Jews to be okay with the nativity scenes on the grounds of government offices and buildings?  Why do they expect non-believers to tolerate expressions of religious belief?

    And this one-way street the Christians seem to think they own, the one where only their feelings matter, is EXACTLY why religion needs to remain a personal expression and not one promoted by governments.

    You want to put a Nativity scene on your front lawn?  Go for it.  You want to wear a cross, carry a Bible, go door-to-door proselytizing, protest all manner of things that offend your religious sensibilities?  Knock yourself out.  Want to keep your children out of the godless public schools?  No one will stop you from sending them to the local Christian school.

    Maybe the Christians would be better off treating others as they would like to be treated, and recognize that their religion doesn't rule anyone, and it isn't the government's place to impose it on others.  That's not tolerance, that's tyranny.

    Parent

    I'd like to know where in the Bible (none / 0) (#88)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:36:04 AM EST
    did Jesus say that having a representation of his birth on public property was important, or that God be mentioned in the schools?

    Why is that more important instead of, I dunno, helping the sick and poor and those in prison, like Jesus does talk his followers doing in the Bible?

    Parent

    et al 1 (2.00 / 3) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 11:44:11 AM EST
    Mordiggian - Jesus didn't and it is of no importance to Him.

    OTOH, it is important to Christians and costs atheists nothing. I mean, just as "everyone" knows that churches will not lose their tax exempt status if their preacher refuses to marry gays, "everyone" knows that a creche on the courthouse lawn doesn't mean that the church police won't be forcing anyone to go to church.

    And you still will not admit what Popper's point was. You want to claim that you are the tolerant and the Right is not.

    We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law...

    No Donald, the rest merely expands and reinforces his point. As I quoted to Mordiggian:

    We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

    I realize you love massive comments but they are not always necessary.

    MKS - Your side is the one that is outraged and complaining about creche's, "under God" and prayers at football games.

    Why? If you expect the religious Right to accept Gay marriage in the name of tolerance, rather than just that it is now "legal," shouldn't you say it is okay for a creche on the courthouse lawn?

    Anne - If the Jews, Muslims, secularists, etc., want tolerance....why are some of them always offended and intolerant??

    The question is, as Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along?"

    The answer is, sadly, no. The Left and the Right are just two sides of the same coin.

     

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 11:52:41 AM EST
     OTOH, it is important to Christians and costs atheists nothing.

    Atheists pay taxes, Jim.   They deserve not to have the 1st Amendment.

    I mean, just as "everyone" knows that churches will not lose their tax exempt status if their preacher refuses to marry gays, "everyone" knows that a creche on the courthouse lawn doesn't mean that the church police won't be forcing anyone to go to church.

    Yes, we wouldn't like to be like the Saudi's with the religious police and all that.  

    Just like everyone "knows" that the Catholic Church lost it's tax exempt status because they refuse to recognize civil divorce laws.

    And you still will not admit what Popper's point was. You want to claim that you are the tolerant and the Right is not.

    How is it tolerant to insist on a religious display on public property?  Why should the Hindu, the Jew, the Muslim, the agnostic, the atheist, all tolerate their tax monies being spent on a display focusing only on Christianity?

    And, if you were sincere about Popper's point, you wouldn't truncate his quote to serve your own purposes.  

    But it is ludicrous that you insist that not wanting the 1st Amendment violated is an example of intolerance on the part of the Left.

    Thanks for making my case for me yet again, Jim.  

    Parent

    Your case? You don't even have a pocket. (1.00 / 2) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:45:18 PM EST
    How is it tolerant to insist on a religious display on public property? Why should the Hindu, the Jew, the Muslim, the agnostic, the atheist, all tolerate their tax monies being spent on a display focusing only on Christianity?

    Who said they should?? If they want a display, say a nice statue of Mohammed, I see no problem. ;-)

    You, Mordiggian, are the one insisting that the religion of Secularism be obeyed.

    Parent

    Well, many of your Christian allies (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:03:52 PM EST
    would have a problem with a statue of the Indian God Ganesh, for instance.

    Oh, and you made a big funny?  EVERYONE, Jim made a big funny because he knows that a statue of Mohhamed is blasphemous under Islamic law.

    AGAIN, I repeat, Jim made a funny!

    Seriously, Jim, if there were other statues there with a Xmas crèche, I'd like to think you'd be mature and tell the Christians to be accepting that theirs isn't the only religion in our society, and that being in the majority doesn't mean the minority has to accept their tax money going to promote only one religion, of which they don't belong to.

    I'd really like to believe that.  

    Parent

    Religious Display at the Courthouse (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:59:42 PM EST
    Why? If you expect the religious Right to accept Gay marriage in the name of tolerance, rather than just that it is now "legal," shouldn't you say it is okay for a creche on the courthouse lawn?

    I don't care whether anyone "accepts" a law.  Why would I?  I care if they violate the law and in doing so cause me some sort of inconvenience, but their reasons for doing so are immaterial to me as long as they do the time for it.

    Regarding the "creche at the courthouse," the Church of Satan demanded and got equal space next to a Christian display, exactly in keeping with your expressed principle.  Coincidentally or perhaps not, at the same time the court ruled that religious displays of ALL KINDS were to be removed, because that Constitution that you hate says so.  

    Parent

    Why (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:37:11 PM EST
    do you think Christianity is such a loser religion that the government needs to prop it up? Are your beliefs so weak that you need the government to justify what you think? This is the way ISIS thinks about Islam and it's the same way you view Christianity. Both of you see yourselves in some kind of radical holy war and it's doing nothing good for anybody. It might make you THINK you're better than somebody but in reality you are not. You have to completely turn off your ability to reason to think like you do.

    Parent
    et al in the morning (none / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:35:10 AM EST
    Mordiggian - I see you have a sense of humor but I'm not sure the Danish editorial cartoonist who lives under 24 hour protection is laughing.

    And you would "like to think?" Well yes, I would also like for you to "think." If you did you would know, since I have repeatedly made the point that we shouldn't tolerate the intolerant, what I would do.

    Repack - The point is that the law offends many and is silly. You know, kinda like the laws that you hate making marijuana illegal.

    I mean, you are tolerant, aren't you?

    GA - The government allowing a creche on the courthouse square is not supporting religion. More  like letting people alone to celebrate a holiday. You do think we have a right to privacy, don't you??

    And, of course, you have to bring ISIS up.

    GA, ISIS has killed thousand many in the most horrible of ways and have defined what they want in terms that even you should be able to understand.

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:19:13 AM EST
    quit moving the goal posts. It's now about allowing with you it's endorsing. Would you be okay with the government allowing any other religious display on the courthouse? Would you be okay with the government allowing a statue of Buddha on the courthouse?

    Parent
    The point? (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:16:50 AM EST
    Repack -- The point is that the law offends many and is silly. You know, kinda like the laws that you hate making marijuana illegal.

    You lost me.  I use a quote so you know what I am responding to.  I have no idea what I wrote that inspired your comment.

    The measure of a law is not whether it offends people.  A law is supposed to be just, even if a majority doesn't care for justice, e.g. a lynch mob.  I'm pretty sure the Emancipation Proclamation was not greeted by white southerners with cheers.  Do you believe a southern majority should have been empowered to keep slaves because the alternative "offended" them?

    Parent

    Well, what's that got to (none / 0) (#156)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:01:01 AM EST
    do with public religious displays that are supported by tax dollars?  

    So you would tell the Christians they should be more tolerant, or are the rest of us non-Christians suppose to tolerate them, but they can be intolerant of us?

    And I would like to think you could give a straight answer instead of bawling out intolerance like you just discovered the word yesterday.  I can see asking you to discuss up it in an adult, straightforward manner is apparently an impossible task for you.

    But then you always judge people on their thinking, if they don't agree with you.  Why is that?

    And why should the religious right be offended by gay marriage?  that's like saying because I object to the MJ laws, they should get rid of all restrictions of the sale of alcohol except those applying to minors.  

    Let them alone to have a religious crèche on government property?  What moonshine have you been swilling lately?  Can't people have it on their private property instead?

     Why must non-Christian taxpayers see their funds go towards the promotion of anothe religion?

    If you can answer that.....

    Parent

    You "quote" as you always do (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 10:48:59 AM EST
    A partial quote out of context to completely distort the author/speaker.

    You would think after being caught red-handed so many times you would be embarrassed ...

    Parent

    Your quote is incomplete (none / 0) (#66)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:30:54 PM EST
    Here's the rest of it:

    In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.(Ed)

    Funny, how you think the Christians "tolerate" the secularists, Jim, and we should in turn tolerate them by allowing a mention of God, a derancinated God who is also Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant at the same time.

    Great idea.

    Parent

    ... and completely misrepresented what he / she actually said -- again. What a bullschitt artist! The damnedest thing about it is that the only person here that he keeps fooling with his serial mendacity is himself.

    Parent
    Which happened which happened (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 06:58:47 PM EST
    during my jr. high years.

    Parent
    Which one (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:01:54 PM EST
    just kidding

    Parent
    I was in kindergarten (none / 0) (#42)
    by Zorba on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:07:56 PM EST
    I remember being annoyed because they changed the wording of something that I had only learned that year.
    I mean, I was like "Grown-ups, make up your minds!"

    Parent
    What were things like (none / 0) (#62)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:05:43 PM EST
    in the pre-Atomic era?

    Parent
    Kind of boring actually. (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:19:53 PM EST
    My grandfather used to tell stories (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:16:52 AM EST
    about the mastodons and saber tooth cats he had to dodge on his way to school, so the pledge must have been a little bit after his time in school.

    Parent
    Should the genetecist reintroduce (none / 0) (#99)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:26:16 PM EST
    the wooly sloth?  See google news science section.

    Parent
    Thinking you mean (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:52:52 PM EST
    If you were in junior high when the (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:14:51 PM EST
    Pledge was changed, then you must have been born during WW II?  And since the atomic era was, basically, ushered in by our use of A-bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, you must have been a very precocious toddler or pre-schooler to remember that.  ;-)
    What I remember is having "atomic bomb" drills when I was in elementary school.  We had to move our desks away from the windows and hide underneath them.  
    They (I guess) were worried about windows being broken and glass flying.  (We had the same drills for tornado warnings.)
    Then, I suppose, we were all supposed to climb out from under our desks (if the bomb wasn't so close that it would instantly incinerate us), and die of radiation poisoning in fairly short order.
    Ah, well.  I do recall some people in the area getting all freaked out and building bomb shelters.

    Parent
    Dd they make you watch the 'bomb' movie? (none / 0) (#109)
    by nycstray on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:59:28 PM EST
    I think you had to be in either middle or jr high, but you needed a note NOT to see it (aka skip class I guess). Nothing like freaking out 'The Children'. Our drill went hand in hand with the earthquake drill, which made a bit more sense. Never understood the bomb one. Duck n' cover kids!

    Parent
    Fortunately, they did not (none / 0) (#114)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:36:50 PM EST
    show us that one.  Although Mr. Zorba, who grew up in a different area of St. Louis, said they they were shown it.

    Parent
    The Iowa Ordinance Plant was nearby (none / 0) (#116)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:43:35 PM EST
    many kids' dads worked there. But I do not remember participating in duck and cover drills. Or tornado drills, for that matter, although it was definitely tornado country. Much later  the hazards of being in the vicinity of the ordinance plant were publicized.

    Parent
    Yes, Iowa is also in (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:12:13 PM EST
    Tornado Alley.  I'm surprised you didn't have the duck and cover tornado drills.
    I can remember one time, when a tornado was coming and we were in (elementary) school.  They called off school early.
    Now, most of us were "walkers."  Not that many bus riders.  I was a "walker," lived about a mile from school.
    They sent us to walk home.  During a tornado warning.  Granted, the tornado was still quite far away, but we could see the funnel cloud off in the distance as we walked home.
    Can you imagine the schools nowadays doing this?
    OTOH, assuming we could get home in time, we were probably safer at home (most of our houses had basements) than in the school, which did not have a basement.


    Parent
    The weird thing was, hiding under a desk (none / 0) (#175)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:37:53 AM EST
    wouldn't have protected you from a lateral pressure wave carrying debris.  The advice was almost as useless as Homeland Security's recommendation that we duct tape our homes to protect you against al Qwacki.  

    Scary times.  How did we survive?

    Parent

    It's Geraldo's birthday... (none / 0) (#18)
    by desertswine on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 12:27:18 PM EST
    He's 72.  I thought he was much older.  Seems like he's been around forever.

    He's a good guy but, (none / 0) (#19)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 01:04:11 PM EST
    It has been said his real name is Gerry Rivers.

    Happy Fourth... (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by desertswine on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 01:07:37 PM EST
    Wikipedia (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Peter G on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 01:20:06 PM EST
    discusses Geraldo's family background in detail. Born Gerald Rivera to a Puerto Rican father and Eastern European Jewish mother, raised Jewish in New York. Adopted "Geraldo" at the behest of ABC when he switched from being a poverty lawyer to broadcast journalism upon being recruited in 1969-70 to enhance the ranks of minority reporters.

    Parent
    What did Lincoln really think of Jefferson? (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 02:03:47 PM EST
    NYT

    Jefferson was a great political philosopher. (none / 0) (#58)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:22:27 PM EST
    He was also a mediocre president. While he was indeed a man of towering personal intellect, he often failed to exercise requisite self-discipline regarding both his own fascination with life's minutiae and his immediate personal impulses, which were sometimes remarkably counterproductive. He was likely obsessive-compulsive in nature, and it repeatedly served to distract and undermine him at various times throughout his professional career.

    For example, for over sixty years Jefferson kept a scrupulously accurate accounting of his estate and business affairs. He maintained seven permanent ledger books that were updated daily and meticulously cross-referenced, and there was no financial detail too small that it failed to catch his attention.

    Further, Jefferson thoroughly despised debt, which he believed compromised freedom of choice and and would lecture others for hours on the subject. He is said to have held the memory of his late father-in-law John Wayles in disdain, for having saddled his daughter (Jefferson's wife) with an enormous debt upon his death in 1773.

    But for all that, Jefferson proved himself to be a man of very expensive tastes, and he was perpetually unable to curb his own insatiable appetite for lavish personal spending, which at times dwarfed his income and resulted in some very serious issues with his family's finances.

    Thus, he teetered at the brink of insolvency and ruin on more than one occasion in his lifetime. He was so overextended that the Panic of 1819 nearly wiped him out, and the family almost lost Monticello.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Interesting article (none / 0) (#77)
    by sj on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:19:00 AM EST
    Jefferson was a brilliant thinker, for all that. And it appears he was right about this:
    ... he regarded banks with special suspicion as the source of all commercial evil. "Banks may be considered as the primary source" of "paper speculation," and only foster "the spirit of gambling in paper, in lands, in canal schemes, town lot schemes, manufacturing schemes and whatever could hit the madness of the day."


    Parent
    Ok! (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 03:25:40 PM EST
    Former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura told conspiracy theorist Alex Jones this week that he was considering running for president with help from the Libertarian Party -- but wouldn't be joining the Libertarian Party if he did.

    "The libertarians have put out a gesture to me to come to their convention and that I would have a very good chance of getting their nomination for president," Ventura explained. "But one thing will have to be clear on: I do not want to join them as a party."

    He said he wanted to be the first president since George Washington who didn't belong to a political party. "I need that from them, that they won't require me to be in their party to receive their nomination, because that's firepower I think you can win the election with. That simple thing."

    "Look at the last national election, 64 percent of the people failed to turn out to vote," he added. "Well, those are all my potential customers. Those are my potential voters. If I can rejuvenate them to come back and watch their vote count, you win."



    Open carry nut (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 03:31:18 PM EST
    arrested in NC.

    Lt. Todd Joyce said the man was detained at the entrance of the Cross Creek Mall in Fayetteville on Thursday evening after first being spotted in a Macy's store at the shopping center. The store was evacuated and some other businesses in the mall closed their doors briefly while officers searched the rest of the mall for a second armed person. No one else was found.

    Joyce said the man was in custody and that charges were pending. He did not release any other details, including the man's identity, or whether he was believed to have posed any threat.

    Well, that's overdue.   Wonder what they will charge him with.   Not carrying a gun.

    You need to provide a link (none / 0) (#28)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 03:51:02 PM EST
    or provide a little more information.

    By what you quoted, he was arrested for walking into Macy's :)

    Parent

    He was (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 03:58:37 PM EST
    FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. -- Authorities in North Carolina say they have detained a man walking through a mall with an assault rifle, a bulletproof vest, and multiple rounds of ammunition.

    LINK

    I don't think he broke any laws.  Incredibly.

    Parent

    Can the other people in the store sue (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by nycstray on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 05:50:32 PM EST
    him for mental distress? Seriously, are we just supposed to ignore a person who walks in armed and able to reload with a vest on? Or are we supposed to pull out our guns and shoot first ?

    Online shopping seems the way to go these days :P

    Parent

    Seems like he might be (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 04:11:20 PM EST
    looking for a legal challenge.  This has been happening regularly all over.  They have been in malls, the Atlanta airport.

    Probably the only reason the guy was arrested is the heightened security around the holiday.  

    From the NC open carry page-


    Preemption    Complete state preemption of firearms laws except localities may regulate the possession of firearms:
    In public-owned buildings
    On the grounds or parking areas of those buildings
    In public parks or recreation areas
    Additionally, under NC Code Chapter 14 § 160A.189, a city may by ordinance ... regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property.

    While the word "display" does not appear to be defined in the Code, some localities in NC have adopted, or are considering adopting ordinances like the city of Chapel Hill's which restrict the open carry of handguns.

    This was challenged in State v. Fennell (1989) and the NC Court of Appeals upheld previous NC court decisions stating that the guarantee of an individual right to openly bear arms in the NC constitution was subject to reasonable regulation declaring that "a pistol shall not be under a certain length."

    NOTE: Almost all states allow local regulation of the discharge of firearms

    Note it says handguns.  The guy had an assault rifle.  

    Parent

    Well, this has (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 05:47:44 PM EST
    This is hilarious (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 06:50:02 PM EST
    i know its CBN but watch it.  The poor rich people are leaving France because, taxes.
    I wonder where they are going?  I can't imagine.

    This is not a problem it's a solution. We need to work on getting the super rich to leave.  And go to Dubai or something.
    They don't pat taxes.  Who cares.

    Parent

    If you had warched (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:16:12 PM EST
    London and Montreal are seen as a place to go.

    And given the high taxes in those two locations France must be truly bad.

    Parent

    To quote Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:36:29 PM EST
    "Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society."

    Parent
    Then France and California (2.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:20:35 PM EST
    should be most civilized.

    Yet they aren't.

    But since you have made, if I understand correctly, your living for your whole life working for the government I can certainly understand you wanting it well funded.

    Parent

    Please don't go there. (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:00:27 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "Then France and California should be most civilized. Yet they aren't. But since you have made, if I understand correctly, your living for your whole life working for the government I can certainly understand you wanting it well funded."

    FYI, I haven't worked in government sine May 2003, with the exception of a six-month stretch from Dec. 2012 to May 2013, when I returned to my former job at the legislature for one session at the request of the new Speaker of the House. I am a co-principal of my own consulting business.

    Because if you really want to make it personal, then I might just note that your home state of Tennessee honors the vicious likes of Nathan Bedford Forrest with a 4 ft.-tall bust in its state capitol, and has even further named a state park after that racist war criminal. And of course, there's this Confederate flag-flying abomination, just off I-65 outside Nashville.

    Further, I'd also bring to people's attention your own past repulsive statements about the deaths of Arab children, as being somehow acceptable as necessary collateral damage in our wars in the Middle East?

    Therefore, given your own rather obvious lack of personal awareness, you really have no business offering such sweeping judgments about the respective civility of France and California.

    Aloha, my little right-wing piñata.

    Parent

    Oh Donald!!!!! (2.00 / 1) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:23:37 PM EST
    If you are going to smear...

    the deaths of Arab children, as being somehow acceptable as necessary collateral damage in our wars in the Middle East?

    Please be honest enough to quote.

    And my guess is that most of your consulting business is government related.

    As for Forrest, that's history. The good, the bad and the ugly. I don't excuse the slave owning south nor do I consider it an excuse for the racism of the Left with its "low expectations." I will note that Forrest resigned from the KKK in disgust over what he helped create.

    As for France and CA my opinions are quite factual unlike your rantings about a place you've never lived or even tried to understand.

    You all have a nice day! Ya hear!?

    Parent

    You - demanding honesty? LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 05:04:48 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "Please be honest enough to quote. And my guess is that most of your consulting business is government related."

    Wrong again, my little flame-throwing wackadoodle! My business works exclusively with nonprofit organizations, foundations and philanthropists. I've written rather extensively about it in previous threads, which you'd likely know if you actually took the time to read and comprehend what other people write here at TL, rather than merely troll its threads looking for potential drive-by opportunities.

    JimakaPPJ: "As for France and CA my opinions are quite factual unlike your rantings about a place you've never lived or even tried to understand."

    And have you lived in France and California? As I said above, with your now-laughable lack of self-awareness, you have no business making such sweeping generalizations about places you obviously know nothing about.

    In fact, given your demonstrable ignorance, I'd offer better than even odds that I probably know a lot more about your home state of Tennessee than you do.

    Auf Wiedersehen, mein kleiner Freund der ratlos.

    Parent

    Donald, I asked you for a quote (2.00 / 1) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:33:55 AM EST
    to support your smear.

    You didn't provide it. That says all that is needed to be said about you.

    And, of course, the foundations and non profits don't receive any money from Uncle Sugar and all the  contributions they received are not deductible from their income and do not reduce the taxes they owe the government. (sarcasm alert)

    And if "living there" is the new requirement for commenting on a place I assume you will, to use a Southern expression, "shut your pie hole" about the South.

    Parent

    Quit making things up (none / 0) (#174)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:37:40 AM EST
    He shot down your assumptions like they were fish in a barrel.  

    Parent
    I don't think me asking Donald (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:39:09 AM EST
    for proof of his smear should bother you.

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:14:06 PM EST
    how the Nordic countries are among the most heavily taxed but the people always rank among the happiest.

    Parent
    And the least religious (none / 0) (#65)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:25:23 PM EST
    even though there is a state-associated church in some of those countries as well.

    Parent
    Business has prospered in CA (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 10:38:56 PM EST
    even though we violated the shibboleth of Republican politics and raised taxes.  I know you won't hear that on Fox News.  :-)

    Parent
    Civilized (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 11:19:09 AM EST
    Then France and California should be most civilized.

    Can't speak about France, but since I live in California I can comment on that.

    Jerry Brown took office after a disastrous Schwarzenegger governorship.  Schwarzenegger left the state economy and the budget in tatters.

    Took Mr. Brown just a couple of years to repair the damage and balance the budget, unemployment is lowest in the nation.  

    Business is booming in California.  Meanwhile Texas, which used tax incentives to bring business to that state, is mired in debt.  Funny how that happens when the governor is a Republican.

    So you are correct sir, California HAS become civilized -- again -- after we got rid of a GOP shill.

    Parent

    To even suggest that CA isn't civilized (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by nycstray on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 12:02:35 PM EST
    is pretty d@mn funny, especially considering the source(s) . . .

    Parent
    Hmmmm I see that you've never (2.00 / 2) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:29:19 PM EST
    heard of Compton.

    And calling Governor Terminator a Repub is as big a stretch as I have seen lately.

    Of course he did have that housing bubble recession, created by Carter, Clinton and Franks, to deal with.

    And why are businesses leaving???

    Parent

    So, in addition to patriotism, science, ... (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 05:16:13 PM EST
    JimakaPPJ: "And calling Governor Terminator a Repub is as big a stretch as I have seen lately."

    ... history, economics, the Constitution, &etc., you -- who regularly claims to be an independent -- are now claiming expertise to define who's a real Republican and who isn't?

    Okey-dokey. Keep going, Jim. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

    Parent

    Jim, most Californians (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by MKS on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 06:12:50 PM EST
    do not care what Southerners say about California....You guys just don't matter enough for anyone to care.

    We are fine now after Brown has become Governor and we have a Democratic Legislature that no longer needs a supermajority to pass a budget.

    Parent

    But, it is always (none / 0) (#139)
    by nycstray on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 08:08:21 PM EST
    good for a chuckle :)

    Parent
    To be fair to Jim (none / 0) (#179)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:50:14 AM EST
    Most people don't care about California or what the people think of the rest of the country either.

    Parent
    Well his thesis (none / 0) (#182)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:58:09 AM EST
    that California isn't civilized and that businesses are leaving here.  The former is an opinion of his, the latter is a falsehood unsupported by the facts, as shown by the BLS numbers for CA I linked to earlier in this thread.

    Parent
    Because they aren't (none / 0) (#125)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 04:57:13 PM EST
    according to the BLS.

    The only statistic showing a decline from last year is mining and logging.  Everything else is unchanged or up a little, as with Professional/Business Services, up 5.2% from last year.

    Click on the link, and prepare to be disappointed, Jim.

    Parent

    That will mean Paris will be cheaper (none / 0) (#54)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 08:36:34 PM EST
    for tourists, even in the no-go zones.</s>

    Parent
    Transformative Presidency :-) (none / 0) (#46)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:24:25 PM EST
    Dropping this qualifiers? (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Yman on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:28:59 AM EST
     "Might", "perhaps", etc.?  Apart from the fact that it's an opinion piece, it's the difference between "I won the lottery" versus "Perhaps, I might win the lottery".

    Desperation.

    Parent

    well, Trump brand suffering . . .! (none / 0) (#47)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:25:01 PM EST
    The Master Donald says that running for president has been bad for his brand; it is causing him problems and some people are irritated at him . . .

    Bored? (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:37:06 PM EST
    SyFy is doing a Twilight Zone marathon and the prime time block starting at 8 (central) is an all star line up if the best episodes ever.

    Including "Room 22"? (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 07:51:06 PM EST
    I think that was the #.

    Parent
    that was the best episode (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:38:11 PM EST
    "Room for One More, Honey". It's on You Tube.

    Parent
    No. Good one tho (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 08:19:37 PM EST
    starting at 8 it's
    Martians in a diner
    To serve man (Richard Kiel)
    William Shatner on a plane with a demon
    Burgess Meredith with books and a bomb
    Telly Savalas and a doll
    Time traveling airliner (Betty Garde)
    The midnight sun (Betty Garde Again)
    The howling man (John Carradine)
    Agnes Moorhead and tiny aliens
    Cliff Robertson and a dummy

    Parent
    the marathon is being discussed on imdb (none / 0) (#59)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 09:51:11 PM EST
    the problem with SyFy's broadcast being the difference in advertising load between now (8-10 minutes/half hour) and when they were produced (2-5 minutes of commercials/half hour)  So SyFy cuts scenes.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 04, 2015 at 11:48:01 PM EST
    2-5 minutes per half hour.  I knew there was a reason TV used to be better.

    Parent
    Right Wing Watch releases Tom Delay's (none / 0) (#73)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 12:04:17 AM EST
    latest interview.  Delay reveals the "existence" of a "Secret Justice Department memo" announcing intent to legalize twelve new perversions."

    A new low for the guy who used to be the Republican House Majority Leader.


    Let's see, House Republican leadership (none / 0) (#101)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 01:33:05 PM EST
    including Hastert, Foley, Livingston, is turning into a real Rogues' Gallery of hypocrisy, misconduct and stupidity.

    Parent
    Thank you for (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 02:58:11 PM EST
    leaving me off that list of Republican leaders who are hypocrites, stupid and of bad conduct.   My serial adultery was just because I loved my country too much...Signed, Newton Gingrich, Patriot.

    Parent
    I was doing the top 3 (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:06:41 PM EST
    Mr.  Gingrich certainly would be in the top 10 for his simultaneous devotion to duty and violating one of the 10 Commandments in that pursuit.

    Parent
    I truly hope (none / 0) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 03:43:27 PM EST
    that after the bodies are counted at the end of tonight's Penny Dreadful finale that

    Mr Lyle survives to return as part of the team

    He is my favorite fictional character in a long time

    wow (none / 0) (#148)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:59:31 PM EST
    that was perfect.

    Perfect ending to a perfect season.

    "Never underestimate the power of a queen with lovely hair, my dear."

    Parent

    Oxi, Oxi (Calling Zorba, naturally) (none / 0) (#128)
    by christinep on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 05:59:08 PM EST
     Considering the alternative of almost guaranteed continued hardship and servitude to austerity, my heart is in sync with the Greek voters today when they overwhelmingly rejected the EU "offer."  

    I have come to think that the terms of the harsh EU approach seemed to be born of arrogance and stubbornness more than anything else.  This is especially so when one considers how others have helped out a number of these same Euro leaders when hardship confronted them. Now, we find the leader of Germany, Angela Merkel, in her capacity as Euro leader holding the tightest, most rigid line calling for little to no relief for Greece ... uh, the same Germany that was in more than dire straits before countries led by the U.S. bailed that country out economically following the total disaster wrought by Germany's onslaught during WWII.  Yes, that bail-out of Germany was premised, in part, by our concern about the then Soviets.

     Doesn't it make international sense to accord Greece relief in the form of the type of debt forgiveness not unknown in Europe?  Doesn't it really make sense also in view of the key geographical and strategic position that Greece occupies in the world ... with the concomitant problems/conflict should Greece fail?

    As I said before, (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Zorba on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:07:51 PM EST
    Greece should have defaulted and bailed out of the Eurozone five years ago.
    We shall see what happens now.
    I saw some calls, quite awhile ago, in the Greek newspapers, for Germany to pay full reparations for what they did to Greece (and other countries) during World War II.  From what I recall, there was some money paid, but the feeling was that it was not anywhere near enough for the devastation that Germany caused the countries it invaded.
    Angela Merkel should, indeed, look back to how much help Germany received after World War II.
    But I doubt that she will.
    If Greece totally fails, I think that it's going to definitely cause a whole lot of NATO problems, and I don't think that NATO wants to deal with that right now.
    But I don't think it will cause some kind of global financial crisis.  NATO, yes.
    The Greeks have said "όχι" many times in the past.

    Parent
    I'm going to give True Detective another chance (none / 0) (#137)
    by McBain on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 07:40:59 PM EST
    tonight.  The first two episodes were close to awful.  Sunday night used to be great for TV.  If True Detective continues to suck, I'm not sure what I'll do.  

    Glad I did (none / 0) (#150)
    by McBain on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 01:34:42 AM EST
    tonight's episode was actually good.  I'm still not sure who I'm supposed to root for.

    Parent
    The South Carolina Legislature begins debate (none / 0) (#146)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:46:49 PM EST
    tomorrow (Monday) on the removal of Confederate flag.

    I have (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 06:46:04 AM EST
    a feeling this is going to turn into a heehaw melee.

    Parent
    Extremely Unlikely (none / 0) (#154)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 07:43:20 AM EST
    There will be a few holdouts trying to add silly amendments, but it should wrap up before the end of the week.

    There will probably be an attempt to turn it over to the voters but that won't fly because those that made the mess now have to fix the mess.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#159)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 08:22:42 AM EST
    again I hope everybody else is right about this and I'm wrong but it's SC.

    Parent
    The SC Senate starts debating (none / 0) (#172)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:34:11 AM EST
    the flag right now. You can catch it on C-Span if you want to see how it's going. Of course, as in most places, the Senate in SC is far more sane than the House which will take it up this afternoon. It could be more in the ballpark of what you are expecting in that gathering.

    Parent
    SC Senator Lee Bright (none / 0) (#176)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:38:58 AM EST
    however does not fall in the category of sane. He's more of a fire and brimstone TV evangelist.

    Parent
    What's to "debate?" n/t (4.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 09:55:55 PM EST
    It's how the legislation process works (none / 0) (#149)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jul 05, 2015 at 10:05:09 PM EST
    ACA 2016 (none / 0) (#181)
    by jbindc on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:58:00 AM EST
    Proposed ACA rates for 2016

    WASHINGTON -- Health insurance companies around the country are seeking rate increases of 20 percent to 40 percent or more, saying their new customers under the Affordable Care Act turned out to be sicker than expected. Federal officials say they are determined to see that the requests are scaled back.

    Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans -- market leaders in many states -- are seeking rate increases that average 23 percent in Illinois, 25 percent in North Carolina, 31 percent in Oklahoma, 36 percent in Tennessee and 54 percent in Minnesota, according to documents posted online by the federal government and state insurance commissioners and interviews with insurance executives.

    The Oregon insurance commissioner, Laura N. Cali, has just approved 2016 rate increases for companies that cover more than 220,000 people. Moda Health Plan, which has the largest enrollment in the state, received a 25 percent increase, and the second-largest plan, LifeWise, received a 33 percent increase.

    SNIP

    The rate requests, from some of the more popular health plans, suggest that insurance markets are still adjusting to shock waves set off by the Affordable Care Act.

    It is far from certain how many of the rate increases will hold up on review, or how much they might change. But already the proposals, buttressed with reams of actuarial data, are fueling fierce debate about the effectiveness of the health law.

    A study of 11 cities in different states by the Kaiser Family Foundationfound that consumers would see relatively modest increases in premiums if they were willing to switch plans. But if they switch plans, consumers would have no guarantee that they can keep their doctors. And to get low premiums, they sometimes need to accept a more limited choice of doctors and hospitals.

    Should be interesting to see how far they can negotiate the insurance companies down.

    Smear?? (none / 0) (#184)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 09:59:48 AM EST
    I merely commented on Donald's background as evidence of his bias.

    And do you think that working for the government is a bad thing?

    Good grief.

    Flag Disposal (none / 0) (#202)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 11:00:51 AM EST
    Here is how to dispose of the US flag properly.

      1. The flag should be folded in its customary manner.
      2. It is important that the fire be fairly large and of sufficient intensity to ensure complete burning of the flag.
      3. Place the flag on the fire.
      4. The individual(s) can come to attention, salute the flag, recite the Pledge of Allegiance and have a brief period of silent reflection.
      5. After the flag is completely consumed, the fire should then be safely extinguished and the ashes buried.
      6. Please make sure you are conforming to local/state fire codes or ordinances.


    Courtisy of the VFW.

    I have one that needs replacing, Ace is the easy solution, but I kind of like the idea of doing it myself.

    Uh, Jim (none / 0) (#204)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 11:17:06 AM EST
    You weren't making an assumptions, you were being inaccurate:

    But since you have made, if I understand correctly, your living for your whole life working for the government I can certainly understand you wanting it well funded.

    You weren't saying/assuming he worked for the government in the past, you said what you said. He quotes it back to you, so this is the third time that it's on this thread, so revising your comment to make me seem unreasonable isn't going to work this time.

    And, FYI: complaining it's out of context on the thread where the whole context can be had won't work for you either.

    It's a shame, sport, but better luck next time.  

    Sleep tight tonight, and don't let the jihadis bite.

    And Jim, on immigration (none / 0) (#205)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 11:32:40 AM EST
    a lot of labor unions and liberals are dealing with it by asking for the immigrants to be allowed to stay here and become legal, as well.

    And, your assertion that I am against making the border a Berlin Wall is correct, but there is no flow, or not much of one, since 2009, and we don't have the technology to do it effectveliy, unless you want to do what the Romans did and station military posts and garrisons from San Ysidro going east to he mouth of the Rio Grande.  Then you have the problem of of supplying them in a Western United States that is becoming dryer and dryer, especially the Sonoran Desert areas where a man needs a mule or some other means to carry the water necessary to survive in such a hellish environment.  The Chinese built a wall, the French built the Marginot Line.

    And even if you can seal off the land-land borders, there's thousands of miles of sea coast available as well.  Even with drones and electronic devices to collect and transmit data, you still need a human mind to evaluate it and make decisions when action should be taken.  Heck, they can't even catch drug smugglers now using primitive flatboats to ship their wares along the California Coast these days.

    If you truly want illegal immigration stopped after the ones here get a green card, you have to go after the bosses.

    As they're the reason they come over here, for those who would break our laws without crossing any borders by hiring those who do, let there be no mercy.  Reduced the demand, and the problem goes down.  


    Golly gee anne, (none / 0) (#206)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 06, 2015 at 01:16:01 PM EST
    next thing you know I'll commenting more than Howdy...who you seem to have no problem with.

    Of course some of the comments are responding to Mondriggian who doesn't know what an assumption is and insists on demonstrating that.

    Mondriggian, if you don't completely stop the flow the problem continues just as if a bleeding accident victim doesn't have the bleeding stop they will bleed out.

    The truth is that the rank and file of the unions are on my side. It is the so-called leaders who are in the pocket of the Demo politicians that want what the Demos want....votes.

    And I want to do whatever is necessary. The human suffering our lack of action has caused is horrendous.

    I have also written time and again that I would put the employers, or bosses in your words, in jail.

    But, as long as cheap labor comes someone will hire them. So take action against both.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#209)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 08, 2015 at 04:57:14 AM EST
    But it isn't.