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Thursday Open Thread

Our last open thread is full, so here's a new one, all topics welcome.

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    And, while the country (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:10:20 AM EST
    is embroiled in this, manufactured, symbolic, mostly phony, "issue," that only gives the chattering pundits & "journalists" ever more fodder to pollute the airways with than they could ever dream of, real serious problems we face (like the impending TPP approval) slip right on by.

    You gotta hand it to Jamie, and the Oligarchs, they really know how to toss around those shiny pennies, and laugh their asses off as we get all hot and red faced expressing our moral outrage while they steal our children's futures right out in the open, and right out in front of our morally indignant faces.

    I think there are plenty of people (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:01:32 AM EST
    who regard the ongoing near-worship of a symbol that has, by flying over state capitol and other state government buildings, given permission to maintain and fuel racial divisions and animus to be a pretty important issue.

    I don't see anything "faux" about it at all.

    Parent

    I don't either (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    And it has given the aura of southern government legitimacy to practice covert racism.  I was very surprised that Alabama Governor Bentley had all the Confederate flags taken down, he isn't known for being on the right side of history until this week.

    Parent
    let's be real (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:31:11 AM EST
    It's not like they'd be talking about TPP anyway.

    They'd find any other distraction.  If they wanted to talk about it they would.  It has nothing to do with the flag issue.

    Parent

    I have been offended (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:43:29 AM EST
    ...for most of my adult life, and I'm now 69, by the sight of that hated rag.  I understand that the First Amendment gives any citizen the right to admire treason, slavery, pedophilia or Naziism on their own property and on their own dime, and I will defend that right.

    The taxpayers have been forced to subsidize public monuments to treason and slavery.  These are not American values.  The taxpayers have no reason to pay for displays of the emblems of our country's enemies or paeans to those who opposed everything we stood for.

    It may be a small, baby step toward putting home-grown anti-American sentiment to rest, but it is a necessary step.

    Parent

    I Agree in That... (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:25:45 AM EST
    ...arguing over a symbol doesn't actually address anything but the fact that a lot of white people really dislike black people in the south.

    Taking the symbol away, and the problem remains, it's just more hidden.  No one is talking about issues at hand, like what made a kid with blacks friends morph into a white supremacist in a matter of years and how he was able to kill 9 people in an instant.  That didn't happen in a vacuum, and if this were a foreign terrorist, we would not be discussing flags, we would dissecting the why's and how to prevent a occurrence.

    The underlying issues are basically off limits so long as we focus on some stitched nylon that may or may not come down at a handful of places.

    Deal with the actual issues and the symbols will take care of themselves.

    I totally disagree with the TPP belief.  Not many were interested a month ago, the shooting didn't distract something most didn't care about.

    Parent

    But when you talk about the flag, (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:11:40 PM EST
    you have to talk about its history, its meaning, and the very issues that underlie its symbolism.

    I don't know if you're aware, but this is spreading to things like taking down statues of Robert E. Lee, and renaming elementary schools and parks, so this is bigger than just a flag.

    Here's Charlie Pierce:

    And there were two corollary events over the past few days that convinced me that the current movement may run deeper than simply bringing down a flag. First, Mitch McConnell, of all people, has suggested removing a statue of Jefferson Davis from the state capitol of Kentucky. And, on Wednesday, Mayor Mitch Landrieu of New Orleans opined that it was time to remove the massive pillar honoring Robert E. Lee from Lee Circle.

    [...]

    This is a big deal for two reasons. First, because this statue is huge. Lee stands atop a towering pyramid. He faces north, so that he will never turn his back on his enemies. From the sidewalk, it reminds you of nothing more than the Nelson Pillar that once dominated O'Connell Street in Dublin until The Lads blew it up in 1966. Second, because it's Robert E. Lee. Jefferson Davis always has been something of a phantom in history, but Lee is central to the Lost Cause myth of Confederate sympathizers -- the noble gentleman who fought brilliantly for a cause, as U.S. Grant put it, "that was one of the worst for which men ever fought." Lee fought for treason and for human chattel slavery. (He was rather fond of the lash on the plantation back home.) If we're as done with Lee as we are with Jeff Davis, as we should be, then this course correction of American history may be more profound than I thought it was going to be. This is not "erasing history." It's erasing myth, and that's a different thing.

    [...]

    The myth and its symbols have done such horrible damage to the American republic, and a walk through New Orleans is a walk through the historical rubble left behind by that damage. Louisiana--and specifically, this city--was central to many of the events that caused the noxious myth to rise and do the damage we still are trying to undo.

    [...]

    These are all the things that the banner of sedition represented, all the retrograde developments in American history that the broken promises of Reconstruction led to, including turning the South into an economic basket case and a moral quagmire for most of the following 100 years. Raising Robert E. Lee above what once was Tivoli Circle not only symbolized all that, it celebrated everything that had gone so badly wrong in our common history. Bring him down. Put him someplace with the flag, maybe between a flood wall and a parking garage.

    I look at it this way: if someone wants to be proud of the South for what was done under the banner of the Confederate flag, and what was allowed to continue in other ways, let them speak it out loud, let them answer for that support, and stop hiding behind the symbols.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#114)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:19:42 PM EST
    I think the monuments should be left up and should be treated the same way the Germans treat the concentration camps. Every disgusting word they said about the black Americans and their support of slavery should be there for everybody to read. They should be turned into monuments of shame instead of honor. They should serve as eternal reminders of man's inhumanity to man.

    Parent
    I live in Northern Virginia (none / 0) (#117)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:35:58 PM EST
    There is a monunument to the Confederate dead in the middle of the road in Old Town Alexandria.  It makes traffic actually mimic a tiny roundabout since you have to swerve slightly to go around it.  In Fairfax County, we have Robert E. Lee and J.E.B Stuart high schools (Go Lancers and Go Raiders!)

    I even LIVE on Lee Highway, which goes from Northern VA to Corinth, MS.

    Actually, what I find more appalling is that we have military bases named for Confederates- Fort Bragg, Fort Gordon, Fort Henning, Fort Polk, and where my dad did a stint in the 60's - Fort Hood.  There's a report out just a few minutes ago that said the Army has no plans to change the names because they were named long after the war "in the spirit of reconciliation".

    Parent

    And not for nothing... (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:04:22 PM EST
    there are plenty of monuments to people up north which we would like a mulligan on.  I wouldn't go too crazy tearing down monuments or renaming roads and schools...some sh*t ya just gotta let go or it never ends.  Personally, getting rid of any official government displays of the confederate rag is good enough for me.

    And we can be more prudent going forward with who we choose to memorialize...naming E 2nd St. & the Bowery Joey Ramone Place was an excellent choice, as was renaming the Interboro the Jackie Robinson Parkway. Renaming the 59th St. Bridge after Ed Koch is shaky;)  

    Parent

    Yeah, Koch would be more worthy (none / 0) (#130)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:19:28 PM EST
    of a viaduct or small park of a few acres in size, IMHO.

    Parent
    Nah... (none / 0) (#135)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:30:03 PM EST
    I think we should avoid mayors all together...stick to musicians!  How could would it be to attend Jimi Hendrix High School or drive over the Charlie Parker Bridge?  

    Parent
    Then in that respect, kdog, ... (none / 0) (#149)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:18:29 PM EST
    kdog: "I think we should avoid mayors all together ... stick to musicians!"

    ... I think you should immediately commence to advocate publicly for the renaming of your city's LaGuardia Airport, which could be accomplished in tandem with its sorely needed and long-overdue renovation and upgrade.

    You know, "Lou Reed International" has a really nice ring to it.
    ;-D

    (As an aside, when we were there a few years ago during a visit to Elder Daughter while she was in school back east, we found LaGuardia Airport's decaying condition to be both atrocious and shameful. A public facility of such strategic and logistical value to city residents and visitors alike should never have been allowed to seriously deteriorate like that.)

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yep... (none / 0) (#152)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:31:33 PM EST
    that's our LaGuardia Airport...where "a state of total disrepair" is an understatement.

    Luckily it's not an international airport, strictly domestic, so it's only an eyesore to domestic new arrivals.  JFK & Newark are our internationals.

    Lou Reed Airport does have an excellent ring though, good call.  

    And speaking of mulligans, I forgot Ronald Reagan International...our descendants will mock us over that one!  And lets the Jersey doesn't get any bright ideas about naming Newark after Chris Christie.

    Parent

    ... of the NY/NJ Port Authority, which gives New Yorkers a big say in all EWR matters big and small, I really don't see any threat on either the immediate or prospective horizons to the name of "Newark Liberty International Airport."

    But what you guys could do is purchase the bronze statue of the late Lucille Ball that's lately been plaguing residents of Jamestown, NY, aka "Scary Lucy," and relocate it to one of the terminal entrances at either EWR or JFK, as a means to warn travelers just what they're in for.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Donald you should see (none / 0) (#158)
    by fishcamp on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:52:27 PM EST
    The Karachi airport, it's almost as bad as the city.

    Parent
    Ugh! I'll take your word for it. (none / 0) (#164)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:19:24 PM EST
    The worst overseas airport I've ever experienced was Harare Int'l in Zimbabwe, when we were in southern Africa in Nov. 2010.

    That country's currency had only recently collapsed, and the place was dirty and smelly and ill-maintained, and its customs and immigration section was seriously understaffed, so getting processed took over two hours.

    Further, upon our exit we were literally and immediately beset by hordes of desperate people, eager to sell us tourists all kinds of homemade tchotchkes and knick-knacks, in exchange for precious U.S. and South African currency. It was a rather sad and pathetic sight to behold -- particularly when airport security police wielded clubs to chase them away from us, so that we could then board our bus unimpeded. Welcome to Africa.

    Correspondingly, the best and most efficient foreign airports I've seen were actually on that same trip, just across the border in South Africa -- O.R. Tambo Int'l in Johannesburg, King Shaka Int'l in Durban, and Cape Town Int'l in -- well, I leave it to others to guess where.

    Of course, these were all brand-new facilities, built to handle the huge influx of visitors that were there for that year's World Cup tournament, which was held in South Africa just a few months prior to our own arrival.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I refuse to call the airport (none / 0) (#165)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:31:27 PM EST
    A few miles down the road, "Ronald Reagan National Airport."

    But very few people call BWI by it's proper name. "Baltimore-Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airpirty."

    We do, however, have the John Philip Sousa Bridge!

    Parent

    ... "Friendship International Airport."

    At the dawn of the so-called "Jet Age," and prior to the construction and opening of Dulles Int'l in 1963, Baltimore's airport also served as Washington, D.C.'s primary long-distance gateway for air travel, because that was the only regional civilian facility which could handle then-new jet aircraft like the B-707, DC-8 and British Vickers VC10.

    At that point in time, aircraft technology had yet to develop jet planes which were capable of using National Airport's shorter runways (since reduced to just one active runway). Until the DC-9, B-727 and French Caravelle came into service in the mid-'60s, flights in and out of National Airport were restricted to propeller-driven aircraft only. Technological advances had temporarily rendered that facility somewhat obsolete.

    Aloha

    Parent

    BWI is just BWI. (none / 0) (#189)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:55:39 PM EST
    I don't know anyone around here who calls it Thurgood Marshall or even just Marshall airport. And I'm with you on National. It's always been National airport to me.

    Parent
    The spirit of reconciliation is a good one (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:32:59 PM EST
    if it comes with facing up to the truth at the same time (on both sides), as the ANC taught us after their victory in South Africa. If the defeated traitors -- whose cause was unjust to boot -- reject the hand of reconciliation that was extended to them by the victors more than a century ago, then what should be done with those monumental gestures (the highways, military bases, etc.). That, it seems to me, is the question.

    Parent
    Case in point... (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:44:55 PM EST
    we can't even change a face on currency without a fight...Hamiltonians are pissed about the 10 dollar bill.

    And I tend to agree that the obvious choice to get the ouster is President Jackson on the dub.  Not that I'm a big Hamilton fan, but if any founding father's face belongs on money it's the OG Bankster himself.

    Parent

    I had the same thought (none / 0) (#142)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:51:31 PM EST
    but read somewhere that it's due to the fact that the $10 is the one due for a security upgrade anyway.  Maybe next time it's the $20's turn we can replace Jackson with Hamilton?  Although that could confuse old money.

    Parent
    LOL... (none / 0) (#144)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:59:25 PM EST
    Come to think of it, every face except Susan B. Anthony and Sacagawea is at least somewhat suspect, even my main founding men Ben Franklin & Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, & FDR.  Their goods outweighed their bads, but they had some pretty bad bads.

    And if we really dug we could probably find some dirt on Susan and Sacagawea. :)

    Parent

    K dog, guess who is on (none / 0) (#161)
    by fishcamp on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:59:23 PM EST
    The $10,000 dollar bill?  Simon Chase.  I had one for a couple of days back in the day.  Sold it for $10,650.

    Parent
    This I gotta Wiki... (none / 0) (#163)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:16:42 PM EST
    Salmon P. Chase, never heard of him.  

    Noted hardcore abolitionist, Sec. of the Treasury under Lincoln when we first started printing dollars.  Later Chief Justice of the USSC, who allowed the first black attorney to argue before the highest court.  Pretty cool.  

    Chase Bank is named after him...poor guy, no good deeds go unpunished!  

    Parent

    I didn't know much about him before (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:46:21 PM EST
    reading Goodwin's 'Team of Rivals' about the Lincoln cabinet. Interesting guy.

    Glad he is on a bill - sorry I will never see a $10,000 bill!

    Parent

    That $10k bill (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by fishcamp on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:41:41 PM EST
    I had is now worth $89k.  Atta boy...

    Parent
    ... by President Lincoln, in large part because he wanted to rid his cabinet of an irritating presence. Chase had long been seen as a prospective rival for the 1864 GOP nomination, and once Lincoln had secured his re-nomination, he had no real need to keep Chase nearby and otherwise crimp his style. But he was gracious in victory, and gave Chase a rather soft landing instead of tossing him out on his ear.

    Truthfully, Chase was a longtime crafty Ohio pol and first-rank schemer, who had long thought Lincoln to be unworthy of the office he held. Indeed, he had actually worked rather diligently behind the scenes to undermine the president's authority at several key points during the Civil War, and the president knew it. Only when Chase has removed from partisan politics altogether by Lincoln with his appointment to the Supreme Court, did he allow his better angels to be summoned forth.

    Some historians would later wonder why Chase wasn't simply sacked by Lincoln and banished from Washington altogether. But then our 16th president was a truly accomplished master at the political art of keeping his friends close and his enemies closer, and that seems to be the case here.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yeah, (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:48:46 PM EST
    the military bases names are bad but I did not realize that they were named after confederates and I wonder how many people know that anymore.

    The high schools should be renamed though IMO. I would think in that area especially it should be changed to represent what America is today and not what America was 150 years ago.

    Parent

    Lee was not "fond of the lash" (none / 0) (#200)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:16:54 PM EST
    on the plantation back home.

    I agree with much of what is said.  But Lee is held up by modern Southerners in part because he was not a slaveholder.  His wife, Mary Custis, inherited the "plantation" which is now Arlington National Cemetery.   Lee freed the slaves on the plantation.

    Lee also surrendered at Appomattox. That was a huge decision that benefitted so many. Lee was adored by his troops during the War, and many of them stopped him when he was on his way to Appomattox on Traveler and begged him to not surrender.  They should melt into the countryside and continue to fight a guerilla war, he was urged. This was not an inconsiderable risk.   Nathan Bedford Forrest took a different tack than Lee and started the KKK.  

    Lee was a unique commander.  At Antietam, his troops ran out of ammunition, and as Lee rode the line and was seen by his troops, the troops continued to fight with sticks and stones motivated to support him.   Usually outnumbered two-to-one, he consistently beat the Union troops. Many said he was a poor overall strategist, but he was dealt a poor hand, vastly outnumbered and out-supplied, he should have been no match for the Union.

    His one mistake was at Gettysburg, but thank God, his hubris got the better of him.

    And, after the Civil War, he led the way in bowing to a new reality.  One story has him attending services at a Episcopal Church in Richmond after the War, when the first person to the Communion rail was an African American who was the only one who knelt there.  After moments of surprise and hesitation, with no one else kneeling there, Lee went up and knelt beside him.  Other whites then followed.

    Lincoln offered Lee command of the Union troops for a reason.  Lee, however, thought he had only one choice because he could not fight against his native Virginia, and back then allegiance to one's state was seen as more important than to what was seen as a loose coalition of states that was the United States. Lee never fought for slavery per se in his mind, but to defend his native Virginia.

    That said, Lee betrayed his country and caused the death of so many.  But to say that he did not spare the lash on the plantation is to get some basic facts very wrong.

     

    Parent

    In reality (none / 0) (#105)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:41:14 AM EST
    a lot of people are talking about the confederate culture and the monsters it creates. It's just not the headlines like the flag is because the flag is a simple issue. It's a piece of cloth that can be taken down and dispatched with.

    The confederate culture that breeds these monsters is more insidious and not as able to be easily seen. I mean if they're wearing a stars and bars shirt or carrying a confederate flag the are announcing they are part of that culture but that's not always the case. It's like Hillary says people make racist jokes and no one calls them down for it. They talk about not wanting "those people" in their neighborhood.

    Parent

    I have to respectfully disagree here. (none / 0) (#143)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:53:57 PM EST
    NYShooter: "And, while the country is embroiled in this, manufactured, symbolic, mostly phony, 'issue,' [...] You gotta hand it to Jamie, and the Oligarchs, they really know how to toss around those shiny pennies, and laugh their asses off as we get all hot and red faced expressing our moral outrage while they steal our children's futures right out in the open, and right out in front of our morally indignant faces."

    What's been truly "phony" here for far too long has been white Southerners' collective and uncanny ability over the last 150 years to re-characterize and romanticize its treasonous and ultimately failed effort to secede from the Union as some sort of glorious undertaking and noble cause, and one which was undertaken in the defense of state and individual sovereignty.

    However, the actual historic record clearly says otherwise. In his infamous "Cornerstone Speech" of March 1861, Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens spelled out in remarkable detail the entire rationale for his faux-nation's very existence, which was to preserve and promote the South's "peculiar institution" of human slavery -- and perhaps more ominously, its proponents' crackpotted notion of the white man's inherent physical, intellectual and moral supremacy over his Negro chattel, which has remained with us ever since.

    This aforementioned white Southern capacity to rebrand an otherwise truly immoral and anti-American stance as a regionally patriotic endeavor, is what ultimately anabled southern states to first underwrite and then impose Jim Crow-era segregation and discrimination upon their African American populations, following the North's aborted effort at Reconstruction in the years after the Civil War.

    Therefore, I would argue that the post-Civil War resurrection and re-entrenchment of the Confederate battle flag within white Southern society has been wholly representative of that race-based undertaking. And as I noted the other day, that damned flag has heretofore been entirely symbolic of America's dark side and seamy underbelly.

    Further, that flag's application as the most visible emblem of a truly dubious "Southern heritage" has been remarkably potent, and its effect has at various times proved quite quite lethal to those who from time to time have dared to challenge the prevailing social status quo in the region. (See "Freedom Riders," "Philadelphia, MS" and "King, the Rev. Martin Luther, Jr.")

    If there's indeed been a silver lining to the black cloud that's shrouded the country since the massacre at Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, it's that this tragedy suddenly and unexpectedly ripped the blinders off many, many people across the country, exposing to them the entirely mythological underpinnings of "Southern heritage" in a most remarkable way. Not surprisingly, they are repulsed by what had otherwise always been there for them to see, had they really only bothered to look.

    And in that respect, I'd further offer that quite possibly not since Selma, has the progressive movement in the United States been presented with such a real and viable opportunity to push back forcefully against the still-very real idea of white privilege in our country.

    Those who would continue to assert and propagate that ridiculous privilege both know it and are likely terrified by that prospect. That accounts for the increasingly shrill voices we're hearing from the far right in its desperate attempts to defend neo-Confederate symbolism, and further deflect the blame for the Charleston atrocity away from its inherent racism and instead onto the shortcomings of our legal and mental health systems.

    Because if we can finally and forever discredit the singularly warped notion of white Southern identity politics which the Confederate flag and its related symbols have come to represent, it's not at all inconceivable and far-fetched that its noxious consequences will subsequently and quickly recede from American society. Thus, the case for true equality amongst all of our citizenry can be allowed to advance in a most significant way.

    The very idea that "Jamie and The Oligarchs" are somehow orchestrating events here to their own immediate material benefit, well, I'll not give that distracting argument any undeserved credibility by going there. Rather, if history tells us anything here, it's that random and unforeseen events can sometimes hold profound and immediate consequences for both a nation's course and its people's destinies.

    So, suffice to say that this is a very real window of opportunity that's been opened for us here. But that said, this window may not remain open for very long if we don't avail ourselves of this chance offering, and allow the winds of change to clear the air of the pungent stench of neo-Confederatism that permeates much of our national and our local politics -- even perhaps, I daresay, to the point of once and for all.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    4th Circuit affirmed (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:10:24 AM EST
    ACA case.  Roberts writes, 6-3 vote.  Administration wins.

    This is really good news (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:11:55 AM EST
    6-3 even better

    Parent
    And Scalia (none / 0) (#72)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:07:04 AM EST
    again proves he is an embarrassment to American jurisprudence.

    Parent
    SCOTUSCare - ha! (none / 0) (#75)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:11:07 AM EST
    Actually, that IS pretty funny (none / 0) (#80)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:19:02 AM EST
    It is funny (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:29:07 AM EST
    precisely because SCOTUSCare is the form of healthcare that Scalia has been using since he was named to the Court.

    Parent
    Plus if you don't read carefully (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:15:49 PM EST
    it looks like scrotumcare

    Parent
    That was always covered... (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:20:05 PM EST
    it's ovariescare that is in perpetual jeopardy.

    Parent
    The 6/3 decision (none / 0) (#86)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:40:05 AM EST
    makes it a strong one.  The findings are much as TL has discussed over the months.  The Court held that   ...if a state choses not to establish an  Exchange, the Secretary of HHS is to establish "such Exchange."   And, "Such Exchange," indicates that State and Federal Exchanges should be the same  But, they would differ fundamentally if tax credits wee available only for the State Exchanges.  The challenge hinged on the interpretation of "established by the state,"  the Court found the context, structure and design to be compelling to its interpretation.

    Scalia (joined by Thomas and Alito) offered more of a rant than a dissent.  Scalia's characterization of the Court's interpretation of the law as "jiggery-pokery"  signals a polemic rather than a serious dissent.  "Established by the state," means what it says and says what it means. Because it was used seven times.  No need to go further. The Court is Just rescuing the law from drafting errors.   And, the rant was big on  personalized attack.  Scalia summarizes: The Supreme Court favors some laws over others and is prepared to do whatever it takes to uphold and assist its favorites.

    My worry that that marriage equality and ACA would be paired for political acceptance (of the Court), one win and one loss, hopefully will be wrong, wrong, wrong.  With this ruling, the prediction, if still to come true, would be devastating to not only to those most affected but also, to the Supreme Court jurisprudence.  I look forward to Scalia's dissenting rant in that case soon to come.

    Parent

    Actually, (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:07:40 PM EST
    As of last week (stats haven't been updated for this week), as usual, most cases have been decided this term with what you call "strong" decisions. Of the 57 cases decided through last  week, 26 of them were 9-0 decisions, 4 cases were 8-1, 9 were 7-2, and 9 were 6-3.  Only 8 were 5-4 decisions, and my guess is, unless you are a Supreme Court junkie, you haven't heard of all or most of the 5-4 cases, except maybe in passing.  Of those, only 33& are considered a "conservative win" (where the majority is Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy, and Alito).

    Parent
    True, but what does (none / 0) (#176)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:19:43 PM EST
    this have to do with the price of tea in China?   Not many thought this case would be a 9/0.  This was a politically charged and spotlighted case. It took four justices to grant a writ of cert. suggesting a closer decision.  And, not often does the president weigh-in claiming the Court should not have taken the case--politically and legally,  a second bite at the apple.  Constitutional challenge and then, statutory.  A 6/3 is a strong decision. .  

    Parent
    It always takes (none / 0) (#178)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:43:23 PM EST
    4 justices to grant cert - this case wasn't any different.

    And some would argue that a president commenting about cases before the Court is HIGHLY inappropriate.

    Parent

    Once again, True. (none / 0) (#179)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:00:53 PM EST
    Or, arguably so, in the case of the president commenting.  And once again, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?  

    Parent
    The thing about Obama (none / 0) (#194)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:22:24 PM EST
    commenting on cases pending is a tempest in a tea cup.  I seriously doubt that any of the Justices are swayed or feel some pressure put on them by any such comments, and I'm sure the conservative ones take no notice of them whatsoever.

    Parent
    Scalia's dissents read like blog trolling (none / 0) (#93)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:52:54 AM EST
    He knows he lost, so he lights a stick of dynamite and tosses it into the text.

    Most of us have done that.

    Parent

    High, if not highest, (none / 0) (#102)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:15:31 AM EST
    on my scale of despicable Scalia dissents was Romer v Evans (1996).  In response to state and local governments passing laws to ban discrimination against gay men and women, Colorado (initiated by family values types) passed Amendment 2.  This amendment forbid such anti-discrimination laws.  The Supreme Court (6/3) held Amendment 2 violated equal protection laws.

     Scalia's dissent was anything but a legal argument. It was an anti-gay screed that might have been written by Pat Robertson, but with less intellectual underpinnings that we are accustomed to from the scribblings of the reverend.

    Parent

    Did you know that Pat Robertson (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:41:56 PM EST
    is a graduate of Yale Law School? And then flunked the bar exam, after which he supposedly experienced his religious conversion, abandoned the law, and switched to divinity school?

    Parent
    Yes and then (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:13:20 PM EST
    Robertson when on to flunk life's exam, especially the human compassion section.   But, the lord works in mysterious ways.

    Parent
    Next up (possibly) (none / 0) (#108)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:55:19 AM EST
    Via Amy Howe at SCOTUSBLOG:

    "And if you are tired of hearing about the Supreme Court and the Affordable Care Act, I have bad news for you: the Act's requirement that businesses provide their female employees with health insurance that includes access to birth control could be back before the Justices again soon, this time on a challenge by non-profit religious groups who believe that the rule violates their religious beliefs."

    Parent

    The Hobby Lobby (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:14:14 PM EST
    decision did not cover this kind of thing I guess. Oh, good lord. I'm so tired of people dumping on women and I wish someone would bring a case about insurance covering Viagra.

    Parent
    Hobby Lobby, (none / 0) (#119)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:45:29 PM EST
    Probably at good place to get the Confederate battle flag now that its source is becoming limited.

    Parent
    I bet they (none / 0) (#121)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:50:11 PM EST
    would still carry it if manufacturers were still making it. My understanding is that even the people that want to carry them cannot get them due to manufacturers pulling the product.

    Maybe they can get someone in China to make the flags for them.

    Parent

    Maybe? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:00:50 PM EST
    Large or Small, China's our number one source (of U.S. flags too).

    Parent
    I just watched (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:14:36 AM EST
    the pilot episode of a show called, "Mr. Robot".
    I felt I was watching something original.

    It also felt very contemporary - expressing a kind of feeling that is very 2015 - after all we have been through since 2001 with Bush - and then the Obama years.

    We are at some place that I can't define.
    And this show, in the pilot episode at least, seems to express it.

    One of the featured actors, Rami Malek, has a quality of intensity that is reminiscent of that of Robert DeNiro, imo.  - although it is his own take.

    I'm looking forward to see where this is going.

    Let's hope... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:26:36 AM EST
    this idea comes to fruition...strengthen the USPS, and weaken the grifters that plague us, in one fell swoop.

    The United States Postal & Banking Service...make it so!

    I'm sure the grifter lobbyists are scurrying to drown this beautiful baby as I type.  

    Not a bad idea (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:06:50 AM EST
    except I'm kinda spooky about

    permitting "unbanked" and "underbanked" customers to take out small loans, cash checks, pay bills, and open savings accounts --

    The last time we let the government get deeply into the credit markets the result wasn't pretty.

    Parent

    two things (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:17:30 AM EST
    I wouldn't consider a house to be a small loan.

    If you're referring to the housing crash - banks didn't exactly do too well either.  The whole system went down.  We didn't keep banks from making loans after the fact.

    Parent

    I don't think small borrowers... (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:18:30 AM EST
    were ever our problem, big borrowers and speculators otoh.

    I'm not gonna stiff the guy who delivers my mail on a 500 dollar loan to hold me over till payday...and the people currently being robbed by the payday loan outfits will have an option not looking to run them over the coals.  I don't think the USPS is gonna offer mortgages, and this country could use viable micro-loan options...they've done wonders in developing countries, maybe it'll keep us from going 3rd World.

    I'd start cashing my paycheck at the PO for a more reasonable fee, that's for damn sure.

    Parent

    It sounds like the postal banks (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:37:27 PM EST
    which have existed in Europe for what seems like forever.

    Branches everywhere.  Don't have to travel with lotsa cash or keep cash at home or on your person if you're homeless.

    The only thing which shocks me is that we haven't done it before.  Not really - it'd cut into the banksters' monopoly.

    Parent

    Gov. Scott Walker (R. WI) (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:48:52 PM EST
    with perfect timing, if you are a tone deaf humanoid lacking all judgment skills, signed,  yesterday, a bill eliminating the long-standing Wisconsin requirement of a 48-hour waiting period to buy handguns.  Walker, apparently, seeing not only the need, but the urgency, ceremoniously signed the bill flanked with sheriffs and GOP lawmakers.

    Now now KD... (none / 0) (#150)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:20:08 PM EST
    the man has a presidential primary to win, you don't think he gives a sh*t about the State of Wisconsin and the shape he will leave it in, do ya?

    You say tone deaf, I say he's got an ear for the pitch of Republican primary voters, especially in southern states where he may have more trouble finding the love in a crowded clown car.

    Parent

    Eliminate the 48-hour waiting period? (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by Peter G on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:47:37 PM EST
    Of course. You wouldn't want gun-buyers to feel they were being treated like a woman who needs an abortion to protect her physical or mental health, would you? That would be insulting! I mean, buying a gun involves the exercise of a constitutional right, after all, unlike ... oh, wait ....

    Parent
    Conservatives want the option (none / 0) (#157)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:50:22 PM EST
    of being able to shoot any menacing newborn.

    Parent
    True enough. (none / 0) (#151)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:27:45 PM EST
    It is getting harder and harder to stand out in that clown car.  Hand guns, bazookas, drones are old hat.  Selling them in front of the widows and grieving mothers is innovative.

    Parent
    Insensitivity... (none / 0) (#153)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:38:22 PM EST
    or in GOP parlance, "courage in defense of conservative principles in the face of an unrelenting liberal menace".

    Parent
    In other words (none / 0) (#156)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:48:10 PM EST
    in the face of stark, unyielding Reality.

    Parent
    Well, in fairness, (none / 0) (#173)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:57:43 PM EST
    to which I always strive, Walker, at least, did not invite Dylann Roof to the ceremony.  In any event, Roof would need to send regrets--owing to a previous commitment.

    Parent
    New CNN (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:26:02 PM EST
     Poll  Top line:Bush 15, Trump 11
    Strong Leader: Bush 15, Trump 17
    Economy: Bush 13, Trump 29
    Electability: Bush 37, Trump 7

    Republicans sure are weird.

    The law of the land now ...SSM (5.00 / 3) (#208)
    by christinep on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:06:09 AM EST
    A 5 to 4 decision with Justice Kennedy wrote the just-announced opinion saying that states cannot bar same sex marriage.  Major, major.

    It's a an "all-in" (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:34:00 AM EST
      decision, noit the split baby some speculated might be a compreomise.

      States must license same sex couple within the state who wish to marry not merely recognize marriages licensed elsewhere.

    If this is legit I am very excited (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:17:08 AM EST
    The flag (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:17:27 AM EST
    coming down in SC is now in doubt it would seem. There are the votes in the SC state senate but not the votes in the SC state house. And I'm not sure Haley is going to be able to round them up. The constituents in SC are hopping mad about this flag thing and are calling their reps to tell them to vote no.

    The GOP has created a monster.

    I can't stand the stupid. (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:45:06 AM EST
    These are the same people who love America so much they want to build walls to keep out the foreigners, pass English-only laws, and would spontaneously combust if the British flag or the French flag or the Mexican flag were flying over statehouses to symbolize the good and honorable people who fought to retain ownership of what is now the US.  

    But they want to keep flying the flag of the Confederacy, representing states that seceded from the Union, who wanted nothing to do with that other America and now want to forever honor and enshrine a symbol of slavery, oppression, discrimination, racism and division?  

    Sure, that makes sense...

    All I can say is, I hope the hole they're digging is deep enough that we can bury them in it.

    Parent

    It hilarious and sad at the same time. (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:10:11 AM EST
    It's the same rednecks who claim to be uber patriots and love America who want to fly this flag, plaster stickers on their cars, etc., yet the flag is basically a symbol of treason to the USA.

    Parent
    A bright side? (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:56:19 AM EST
    this event is peeling the onion, separating the wheat from the chaff, yada yada.

     it's exposing not only who they are but why.

    IMO many previously uncommitted persons will look at the "defenders" and say, no.  No.  That's not me.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:17:41 AM EST
    lately my shorthand is SC=the stupid it burns.

    Parent
    Saying they don't have the votes in the House (none / 0) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:55:35 AM EST
    is still quite premature. I believe they are 13 yes votes shy with about 45 that still haven't committed one way or the other. Of those that have committed thus far in the House, it's a cakewalk in favor of taking it down 69-9.

    Parent
    I really (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:16:51 AM EST
    hope they do but either way it's setting off another civil war inside the GOP. It's not like they weren't having one already over other issues but this adds yet another bomb thrown into the mix.

    Parent
    If you want to see their heads explode (none / 0) (#16)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:21:27 AM EST
    Wait until tomorrow when the President gives the eulogy for Clementa Pinckney in Charleston.

    Parent
    Newest tally is 71-9 (none / 0) (#24)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:00:13 AM EST
    Now 75-9 in the House to take it down (none / 0) (#99)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:59:54 AM EST
    And then, there were seven (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:58:27 AM EST
    Supreme Court cases left to be decided this term.

    SCOTUSblog starts live blogging at 9:00 SM EDT.

    Will ACA and SSM (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:02:08 AM EST
    be delayed till the last minute.  I'm afraid it will.

    We might get the lethal injection decision today though.

    Parent

    Don't think you'll care for (none / 0) (#9)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:08:04 AM EST
    the way the lethal injection ruling is likely headed.

    Parent
    Probably right (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:11:41 AM EST
    The housing case was argued in January. But ACA was argued in the February sitting, so it could be today.  SSM, lethal injection, and mandatory sentences under ACCA weren't  argued until April, so my guess is those will be Monday.

    Parent
    Hope so. (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:12:32 AM EST
    Kennedy (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:15:35 AM EST
    Likely to have the housing opinion, and a good chance Scalia will have EPA case.

    Parent
    Three more days of SC Rulings coming our way (none / 0) (#8)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:04:37 AM EST
    Today, tomorrow, and Monday.

    Lots of cases still out there including the majors like ACA subsidies in mostly Republican run states, same sex marriage, clean air, death penalty drugs, housing discrimination, and drawing of political districts.

    Rulings today come at about 10am ET

    So Anne (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:22:20 AM EST
    Coulter says that Nikki Haley is not American and Rush Limbaugh is saying that taking down the confederate flag is destroying southern culture. Typical GOP morons it would seem.

    Oh, dear me... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:30:37 AM EST
    Does anyone but Ann Coulter listen to Ann Coulter?  

    If taking down the Confederate flag destroys the part of southern culture that still longs for the days when slaves worked the plantations, I say, "it's about time."

    Parent

    Sh*t... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:31:02 AM EST
    the best of southern culture is black culture...the blues, gospel, soul food, non-violent resistance to oppression.

    I think all that survives the death of the Confederate Rag.  

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:32:15 AM EST
    what they fear.

    Parent
    I'm sure pick-up trucks... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:43:51 AM EST
    gun racks, moonshine, and NASCAR will survive too.  And we know the f*cking guns ain't goin' nowhere!

    If anywhere in the US should be worried about their culture disappearing, it's NYC.  Our culture got priced out and/or trampled by the police state.

    Parent

    Bad whiskey (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:53:42 PM EST
    meth, in-breeding, and apocalyptic religion..

    They've still got all that..

    Parent

    And mullets! (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:33:46 PM EST
    No one is after the mullet, except maybe the fashion police, hairdresser division.

    Parent
    A guy with an extreme mullet (none / 0) (#168)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:42:12 PM EST
    in an extreme monster truck with a stars n bars bumper sticker might be the new Robert E Lee..

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:17:47 AM EST
    in a lot of ways that is the best part.

    Parent
    What Southern culture would be destroyed (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:55:33 AM EST
    By the flag being taken down? Deep fried snickers bars at festivals? Church on Wednesday night and adult bible school? By God, everyone had better still call me Miss Tracy tomorrow or heads are gonna roll.

    Parent
    The only (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:07:40 AM EST
    thing I can think of is destroyed state sanctioned white supremacy. So that must be what Rush is saying is going to end.

    Parent
    Anne apparently didn't know (none / 0) (#21)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:33:17 AM EST
    that Gov Haley was born in this country, so she's as much an American citizen as is crazy Anne.

    And if taking the Confederat flag down lead to the collapse of Southern culture based on bigotry, deferment to those in the 0.1%, insularity, and the feeling that the sun rises out of their b*tts in the morning, what's the down side?

    Parent

    Please don't confuse our Anne (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:58:06 AM EST
    with that Ann or with Anne of Green Gables. A-n-n looks absolutely dreadful, but Anne-with-an-e is quite distinguished.

    Parent
    I assume you're talking about me, so (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:12:02 AM EST
    thank you for the compliment and for recognizing that how people spell their names is important to them.

    I was on the verge of saying something about it, but you beat me to it!


    Parent

    I am (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:33:31 AM EST
    sorry and I understand. My problem is all my friends growing up and the friends that I have today named Anne all have an E at the end of their name so I never think to say Ann but I understand how people want to have their name spelled right. People spell my name and say my name wrong all the time. Just the other day someone introduced me to someone and she immediately called me the wrong name. The person that introduced me corrected her and she looked at me said why didn't you correct me and I said well, at this point in my life I'm just used to it and answer to anything close.

    Parent
    Sorry to Anne (none / 0) (#28)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:07:07 AM EST
    the detestable Coulter is clearly an Ann.

    Parent
    Don't lump all people named "Ann" (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:13:58 AM EST
    With Coulter.

    Parent
    I have another name for her (none / 0) (#47)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:22:47 AM EST
    that rhymes with her given name, but I won't use it here.

    Parent
    Ann was on Maher last weekend (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:50:10 PM EST
    Spewing her venom about how the US should only be accepting the, and I quote her, "creme de la creme" of immigrants. I'm not sure how she would classify Haley's parents, but Joy Reid was visibly angered since it was pretty clear that dear Ann would not consider Joy's parents as such.

    She is really a piece of work.

    Parent

    Pretty big victory (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:04:52 AM EST
    in the Texas housing case

    Only other opinion(s) today (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:07:05 AM EST
    Will be another Kennedy, Scalua, or Roberts

    Parent
    That one surprises me (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:08:28 AM EST
    no?

    Parent
    ACA upheld (none / 0) (#30)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:09:35 AM EST
    And now onto tomorrow (none / 0) (#31)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:10:13 AM EST
    Danke Gott! (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:10:48 AM EST
    Bravo, bravo, bravo.... (none / 0) (#44)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:18:09 AM EST
    A sigh of relief.  The SCt did the right thing ... by the law and by the American people.  

    Hear my sigh of relief (because you never really know with this Court until the opinion is handed down.)

    Parent

    Which one surprises you? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:12:17 AM EST
    I was referring to the (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:14:39 AM EST
    housing case.   But the other is a bit of a surprise.  Either all the split decision with SSM stuff was misguided or..........

    Parent
    The housing case (none / 0) (#45)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:20:08 AM EST
    Was a bit of a surprise, but I'm not surprised by the ACA case. Even if the Court felt that it was an easy fix, they weren't going to suddenly put 7 million people on the hook because of sloppy drafting by Congress, and it was clear what the intent was from the beginning, IMO.

    Gee, if they had only read the bill...

    Parent

    You listen (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:26:23 AM EST
    to conservatives and they were completely sure they were going to win the ACA case.

    I mean what you're saying makes sense but this court has come down with a lot of bad decisions so you never can be too sure.

    Parent

    Best line so far (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:27:03 AM EST
    "The Affordable Care Act contains more than a few examples of inartful drafting."

    An example:  "the Act creates three separate Section 1563's".

    Parent

    Exactly. Really the onlything hard about the (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:04:04 AM EST
    case was the politics of it. The law was clear.

    Parent
    by which I mean the intent... (none / 0) (#70)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:06:16 AM EST
    inartful drafting aside...

    Parent
    A "full court press" (none / 0) (#110)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:01:22 PM EST
    from the press in recent months may have some influence.  Story after story in the written and airwave media speculated worrisomely about the millions of Americans that would not be able to afford healthcare coverage if there were no subsidies.  Who knows about what influences the nine justices ... they are human.

    Here is what I believe: The Supremes did the right thing in that the context, structure, intent were clear to most anyone paying attention (except those with an opposite ideological investment.)  The reality & importance of legislative intent and statutory context is drummed into lawyers from the earliest days in law school. A 6 to 3 decision, authored by the CJ has its own very positive effect.

     Also: While the matter of the potential "split" in the big decisions this terms was a position to which I was drawn, it really isn't cynical to recognize that a type of horse-trading takes place in the Court at difficult times.  Traditionally, the give & take came about to form a majority in controversial, sweeping decisions ... see, for example, the tendency of a CJ and others to form around a narrower decision when that approach would gain a majority.  While we will known shortly the decision respecting SSM, I do wonder still how sweeping the decision will be in support of LGBT rights.  If J. Kennedy authors the decision, e.g., will he write in terms of his views on federalism or will he go the full Constitutional route?  Full Faith & Credit or the big decision premised on a Constitutional Right?

    Parent

    I always felt (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:47:09 AM EST
    The whole split decision thing was a really cynical way of looking at the court.  I wasn't convinced it was wrong... just very cynical.

    Parent
    If you are not cynical (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:59:26 AM EST
    you just aren't paying attention.

    Parent
    Looks like Hillary and Jeb are (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:10:39 AM EST
    neck and neck with Rubio only a point behind.

    What happened to those double digit leads?

    Meanwhile (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:53:32 AM EST
    Bernie Sanders can fill a stadium with a Facebook post and no help at all from the lamestream media.

    Because he has nothing to lose, he just says what he thinks, and people respond positively to refreshing candor v. pander.  

    Social media have bypassed the Very Important People who decide who is worthy of attention.

    If you ask for opinions of Mr. Sanders' positions, without giving his name, the overwhelming majority of Americans support his ideas.  It will be interesting, as social media have grown in importance, to see whether the people can outflank the gatekeepers.


    Parent

    Haven't ya heard... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:23:58 AM EST
    Claire McCarthy...I mean McCaskill...says the media is giving Bernie the Bolshevik a free pass of praise, and should be doing more red-baiting circa the 1950's.

    Nobody puts Hillary in the corner!  

    Parent

    My sweet Claire has always (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:29:59 PM EST
    Been a nasty piece of work so no surprises here.

    Bernie's response gave her a lesson in how to be a politician with real class. Unfortunately, that lesson will fall on deaf ears. I doubt my sweet Claire can even spell the word.

    Parent

    Lamestream media? Is this Sarah? (none / 0) (#96)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:55:49 AM EST
    Stopped clock and all that n/t (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:57:45 AM EST
    Still cherry picking I see (none / 0) (#38)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:12:23 AM EST
    If you call this (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:24:14 AM EST
    cheery picking then I am.

    But of course a poll from Fox News is always bad.

    Right? (no pun intended)

    The interesting thing from the video is how Hillary's lead has been falling as time goes by.

    I guess the fundamental things apply.

    And pun intended.

    Parent

    It is going to (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:29:52 AM EST
    go up and down but you need to realize that Fox has one of the most inaccurate polling operations out there. But then Romney won in a landslide in 2012 didn't he? So maybe they are accurate. LOL.

    It's becoming a perfect storm for Hillary and the GOP is creating it.

    Parent

    Sorry, but since it's not at all in line (none / 0) (#54)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:30:59 AM EST
    With the WSJ/NBC poll, this is a case of Fox telling its viewers what they want to hear, not the truth of the matter.  

    Still no link to the poll in question?  I can't imagine why that would be......?...

    Parent

    So now you decide (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:50:54 AM EST
    that you don't believe Fox??

    Okay.

    And yes, there's a link. Try reading the comment you are responding to.

    And GA is correct in that it is still way way way early.

    And that huge "Whew" and sound of politicians wiping their brow was the GOP candidates finding out that the SC just poured oil on part of the GOP's stormy waters.

    Parent

    Jim this (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:59:52 AM EST
    poll is not about Hillary. It's about convincing people like you that you need to nominate Mr. Right to Rise Teri Schiavo.

    Parent
    GA, do you realize that you've (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:25:08 AM EST
    just joined the ranks of my more paranoid friends on the far right?

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:32:54 AM EST
    Do you really think Jeb is your strongest candidate? He makes me laugh because he can't even answer simple questions without taking days.

    I think people who have been paying attention know he's a turkey.

    I just think Fox is pushing him but then maybe the GOP is dumb enough to nominate him is what you're saying.

    Parent

    How many paranoid friends on the (none / 0) (#167)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:39:24 PM EST
    Far Right do you have?

    Parent
    In this case, jondee (none / 0) (#171)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:48:25 PM EST
    his RW friends might know that JEB is the corporationist candidate, and thus their worst nightmare.

    Even paranoids have real things to fear sometimes.

    Parent

    My my (2.00 / 1) (#202)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:19:42 PM EST
    I mention one little poll that shows Hillary appears  to be in trouble and you folks coil and hiss like a pit of vipers. Let me see...

    anne, you don't have to believe something to find it interesting. Especially political polls some 16 and a half months in front of the election and no one has actually been nominated.

    Again, what I found to be of interest is the loss of the lead...

    As for polls that I have some confidence in...They are of people who are registered voters and say they plan to vote. All else is speculation. Especially Internet and Robocalls.. Mordiggian, read your link.

    And yes, I realize you don't believe...

    GA, no, I don't believe Jeb is...or Rubio is...or Trump is.....or Huey Long is.... ;-).... One more time... TOO EARLY...

    Jondee and Mordiggian, I confess. I have friends. You should try it, even if you disagree with their politics.

    Mordiggian...As to why pay attention to the poll.... Try this for size... It is information that expands one's view of the universe. Try it.

    Yman..see what I wrote to anne.

    You all have a nice night!

    Parent

    No, their past track record (none / 0) (#65)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:59:13 AM EST
    Suggests their polling isn't all that great, and nothing has happened in the last 7-10 days that would cause such a difference in the polling.  

    You're not a stupid man, but you've yet to give a reason as to why the poll would be accurate and the WSJ/NBC one wouldn't be.

    Looking here, it seems that the Fox polls are the only ones showing Hillary narrowly beating any Republican challenger.

    Let me guess, it's that MSM behind it, amiright?

    Parent

    "amirght" (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:23:03 AM EST
    Is that your hat size or password??

    Speaking of not being stupid, I haven't claimed that the poll is accurate so why do you make things up??

    Having been "push polled" twice and making a vow to lie to every pollster who calls me, I trust none of them. OTOH you seem to be joyous on the ones that favor Hillary.

    Parent

    So you're not saying the poll ... (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:50:24 AM EST
    ... is accurate, but it's the only evidence you cite while claiming it looks like they're neck-and-neck.

    Heh.

    Parent

    Okay, so after trying to stir things up (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:05:43 AM EST
    with a comment about Hillary's allegedly evaporating lead, you now inform us that you never said the Fox poll was accurate, and that you don't trust any poll.

    So, this was just you trolling around looking for attention.

    SSDD

    Parent

    You're touting the results (none / 0) (#92)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:52:33 AM EST
    but you're not claiming it's accurate?

    That's a good one, Jim.  We should pay attention to it, regardless of whether or not it's accurate.

    You see, Jim, I'm no longer going to play word games with you.  If the poll is inaccurate, or it's accuracy is of little consequence, why pay attention to it in the first place?

    Anything else I've made up on this thread?

    As for being joyous, Jim, I'm well-aware that she has a long row to hoe ahead of her, and she was also ahead of Obama in similar polls, so the results at his time may mean nothing.  

    I'm just pointing out the general trend here in the polling, and you want us to pay attention to the Fox poll despite the fact that

    I trust none of them

    But you're willing to crow about the results when they come in your favor, as you did in your initial entry on this thread.

    Making things up?  I'm a mere tyro when it comes to your ability to back-pedal, like a traveling salesman who finds the active end of a shotgun in response to his knock on a door.  

    But thanks for being a generous winner this time around.</s>

    Aloha, to quote DFH.

    Parent

    Yes, you are (none / 0) (#89)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:46:07 AM EST
    A single poll from Faux News is the very definition of cherry-picking.

    Not to mention your trolling comment ...

    Parent

    Only neck and neck (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:13:07 AM EST
    is Jeb and Donald.

    Parent
    Got a link? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:21:33 AM EST
    Your statement is risible, because:

    Looking ahead to the November 2016 election, Mrs. Clinton leads former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, 48% to 40%, in a hypothetical head-to-head matchup. Her lead grows to 10 points in a face-off with Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and 14 points against Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker.

    The survey of 1,000 adults, conducted June 14-18, found that Americans are almost evenly divided on whether they want the next president to be a Republican or a Democrat. But among many key demographic groups, Mrs. Clinton outpaces the support for her party.

    For example, Latinos favor a Democratic president over a Republican by nine percentage points, but Mrs. Clinton's average lead over Messrs. Bush and Rubio is 42 points. Similarly, she draws more support than an unnamed Democrat among women under the age of 50.

    Seems like things are tipsy-turvey from your description, Jim.  8 points isn't neck and neck, and 2 points behind that isn't a good a position to be in.

    What happened to those double-digit leads?

    The double-digit leads are still there with Walker and Rubio, Jim.  As you like to say, facts be facts

    Parent

    You have your poll (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:36:17 AM EST
    Fox News is my poll.

    Of course your link goes to the WSJ, which is subscriber only, so we don't actually what was written but it does mention it was from a survey taken early this month...that would be 14 - 18 days or so ago... and just after Hillary had a "news conference."  

    As is often said, "Timing is everything."

    Risible?? Yes, calling anything Hillary does a news conference is risible.

    So, what happened to those double digit leads?


    Parent

    Actually, we have our ... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:51:46 AM EST
    ... POLLS, plural.

    Next.

    Parent

    "Fox News is my poll" (none / 0) (#59)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:44:27 AM EST
    You made me laugh there for the first time ever.

    It does explain a lot though.

    Parent

    found the poll you're referring to, Jim. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:47:23 AM EST
    Oh, it was taken the 21st and the 23rd, so you're telling us that a mere 7-12 days later, it's possible that the WSJ/NBC poll was wrong and the more recent one is right.</s>

    Let's see what one of the pollsters has to so say about the results:

    "She starts with advantages among very important groups," said Republican pollster Bill McInturff, who conducted the survey with Democrat Fred Yang. He called her standing among fellow Democrats "the strongest and most advantageous" he has seen for any candidate entering a primary since he began working in politics in 1980.

    Keep whistling past the graveyard, Jim.  

    Parent

    We're talking the (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:02:10 AM EST
    general election here, not how great Hillary is doing in the Demo primaries.

    Graveyards?? 12 days?? Look how close Obama and Romney were 12 days before.

    You know, unlike you, I haven't the vaguest idea as to who will be running for the Repubs and don't consider Hillary a Democrat shoo in. There's plenty of time for an "Indian" attack. ;-)

    But I do think polls that put candidate versus candidate more accurate than support from groups, etc., etc. (Look at how Congress polls yet the re-election rate of the individual is staggeringly high if you consider the polls.)

    Parent

    The GOP (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:05:54 AM EST
    has the weakest field I have ever seen them throw out there. It's a virtual circus of carnival barkers but when you have circus freaks who vote in your primaries that is who you are going to get running. It's going to be a bonanza for the comedians though!

    Parent
    Obama and Romney was a different race (none / 0) (#76)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:11:23 AM EST
    plus the fact that we're more than a year from the election means your comparing apples to imaginary oranges.

    From the 538 blog after the 2012 election.

    Among the more prolific polling firms, the most accurate by this measure was TIPP, which conducted a national tracking poll for Investors' Business Daily. Relative to other national polls, their results seemed to be Democratic-leaning at the time they were published. However, it turned out that most polling firms underestimated Mr. Obama's performance, so those that had what had seemed to be Democratic-leaning results were often closest to the final outcome.
    .....................

    Some of the overall Republican bias in the polls this year may reflect the fact that Mr. Obama made gains in the closing days of the campaign, for reasons such as Hurricane Sandy, and that this occurred too late to be captured by some polls. In the FiveThirtyEight "now-cast," Mr. Obama went from being 1.5 percentage points ahead in the popular vote on Oct. 25 to 2.5 percentage points ahead by Election Day itself, close to his actual figure.

    Nonetheless, polls conducted over the final three weeks of the campaign had a two-point Republican bias overall, probably more than can be explained by the late shift alone. In addition, likely voter polls were slightly more Republican-leaning than the actual results in many rdaces in 2010.



    Parent
    I would champion a guess (none / 0) (#77)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:15:55 AM EST
    that Fox News probably polls Fox News viewers.

    Parent
    Jeb's dead Baby... (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:30:09 AM EST
    Jeb's dead...he just put Woody "Trust Fund Doofus" Johnson in charge of his campaign finances.  If he runs Jeb's sugar-daddy stash like he does the Jets, Jeb will be lucky to make it through February!

    Parent
    Punctuation! (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:38:34 AM EST
    At first, I thought you were telling us Jeb had a child that died ("Jeb's dead baby") but then I realuized you meant "Jeb's dead, baby."

    Punctuation please!  :)

    Parent

    I thought such an obvious... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:48:22 AM EST
    "Pulp Fiction" reference did not require perfect grammar...sorry, Professor;)

    Parent
    The power of a comma, kdog... (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by vml68 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:12:06 PM EST
    I helped my friend, Jack, off a horse
    I helped my friend Jack off a horse!

    Parent
    I never saw Pulp Fiction! (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:57:49 AM EST
    Speaking of Un-American! n/t j/k (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:07:17 AM EST
    lol. The Undead can't die. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:57:50 AM EST
    The Zombie Apocalypse is here and it's running for president.

    Parent
    You should google (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:35:54 AM EST
    it and see the jokes that come up w/r/t woody, bush, right to rise etc.

    Parent
    Never count out ... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:48:49 AM EST
    a Bush.

    Because, when it comes to politics, that family has got everything here from a diddled-eyed joe to damned if I know.

    ;)

    Parent

    Agreed, (none / 0) (#134)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:28:45 PM EST
    It would seem to me that he should have been out already--just on that week-long struggle with Fox's Megyn Kelly question on Iraq.  A soft-ball, easily anticipated question, for I'm my own man Bush, not to be confused with my brother George.

    Parent
    Googling (none / 0) (#107)
    by Reconstructionist on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:54:08 AM EST
     this came up first.

      A surprising source for such opinion.

    Dems Must Remember (none / 0) (#113)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:18:49 PM EST
    The press loved and loves Obama. To them he's that cool kid in school everyone wants to hang with.

    They don't love Hillary. Never have. Never will.

    And although they've yet to fall in love with any of the Republicans. They're ready to be smitten.  And even if they don't fall, they're happy to be seen with a bunch of them.

    Hillary can use this to her advantage at times.  But mostly it's bad news.

    The press can turn nothing into a story. And turn a bad day into a bad week. This will effect grass roots organizing.

    Plus, Dems got used to being the "cool kids" in the last seven years.  Many don't remember what it's like when that label is removed.

    Hillary's team is aware of all this. But most Dems aren't. And may not be ready for a real fight.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:22:52 PM EST
    you are correct in a lot ways but the Dems that think that way are the 2008 Obama supporters. The people that supported Hillary back in 2008 have no delusions on what she is up against.

    The press already has said they want a Republican to be president. I guess they hate the citizens of this country if they want us to suffer under yet another economic collapse from a Republican administration.

    Parent

    Oh, c'mon, one of the ... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:11:22 PM EST
    major (probably PRIMARY) contributors to the economic collapse was the repeal of Glass-Steagall and that has Bill Clinton's fingerprints all over it.

    Once that happened the collapse was a foregone conclusion. It was only a matter of time.

    Parent

    Part of Hillary's advantage (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:25:28 PM EST
    I think, is what have they got left to throw at her?  My gawd, they accused her of being a lesbian (when it wasn't cool) and of having Vince Foster murdered.  What else is left?

    Those who hate her, already hate her, so you aren't going to change their minds.  I don't think there's too many people on the fence about her at this point, but I do think there are rational people who will listen to what she has to say versus the clown car that is the Republican Party and will vote for her - no matter what the media does

    Parent

    But the press ... (none / 0) (#122)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:00:17 PM EST
    won't be ignoring flubs and gaffes the way they do with Obama.

    And dealing with stuff like that can really slow a campaign down.

    Parent

    Again, OLD news (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:19:10 PM EST
    I know you were around in 2008, were you not paying attention?

    Parent
    I think you're right, (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:02:59 PM EST
    All the big numbers Hil was getting, especially before she formally announced, were quite soft. People checked off "Hillary for President" on the questionnaires all right, but those were hypothetical votes, in the abstract. There was no one out their competing against her.

    And, to jbindc's comment regarding people who hate her already hate her, that's true. But yet, the intensity of that hate vacillates up and down. I didn't believe the Media would have gone into its, "let's annihilate her, now!" mode this early in the campaign.

    Just check out their coverage of Bernie Sander's efforts. Yes, he's saying all the right things, and certainly, many Liberals have been saying a primary challenge from the Left would be a good thing for Hillary. But, just look at how fast he went from total obscurity, polling around 1%, to suddenly, we're talking in the 10-20 range. How is that possible? I'll tell you how. While Bernie is campaigning well, the press headlines are, "Bernie wows them at a packed house barn burner event." That's true as far as it goes, but what they fail to mention in the headline is that the "packed house" consisted of about 5000 people. That's pretty good, but to the uninformed, casual observer, you'd have thought he spoke before a standing-room-only crowd at Cowboy Stadium.

    People's attitudes are shaped by headlines, talk radio, and one liners on cable news shows. Sooner or later, perception strives to become reality. Hillary's support has always been spongey. Her negatives flat-line in the mid-high 40's. In my opinion, it wouldn't be a miracle if she loses this thing. With so much against her, she'd have to run a near-perfect campaign. And, as just one observer, and a supporter, I haven't seen that happening, unfortunately, and unfortunately again, the path of least resistance is.....down.

    One last thought. While it's, obviously, still a long, long shot, just try to imagine what happens should Bernie pull this thing out, and become the Dem. Candidate. The Billionaires behind the eventual Republican Candidate will be tripping over themselves, throwing money into the campaign. They will be absolutely apoplectic in their orgiastic stupor at the very real thought of finally, finally, having the final nail for the coffin of our Democracy in their hands. What they'll throw against poor Bernie, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. McGovern's epoch, landslide loss might look like a victory before they're through with him.

    Let's just hope the scene I've painted here remains a faint possibility, and never sees the light of day.

    Gotta leave now.

    Later....

    Parent

    That is just completely wrong. (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by sj on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:48:04 PM EST
    Just check out their coverage of Bernie Sander's efforts. Yes, he's saying all the right things, and certainly, many Liberals have been saying a primary challenge from the Left would be a good thing for Hillary. But, just look at how fast he went from total obscurity, polling around 1%, to suddenly, we're talking in the 10-20 range. How is that possible? I'll tell you how. While Bernie is campaigning well, the press headlines are, "Bernie wows them at a packed house barn burner event."
    Are you kidding me? I was at that Colorado event.

    It wasn't covered in the evening news.

    It wasn't covered in the morning news.

    It was covered in the print edition of the Denver Post: three paragraphs on page 4B in the Denver and West section. No pictures.

    It wasn't covered on the Denver Post website until Social media shamed them into it. And the only photographs published by the sanctioned "news" media were obtained from social media. The press was conspicuous by their absence.

    Heck Rick Santorum's one voter event was treated as a more serious event than Saturday's Bernie Sanders event.

    You are completely wrong. What that means for the "scene that you painted" I'm not going to worry about. Your scene is based on premise that's wrong. Completely.

    Parent

    And most folks who have voted a couple times know (none / 0) (#127)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:15:16 PM EST
    this. Young voters that don't remember/were too young, are a different story. Bush is prob very fresh in their minds . . .  :P

    Parent
    Patriot Act and Iraq War too... (none / 0) (#132)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:23:56 PM EST
    and the 18-28's are all too aware about how their employers, university, and Wall St. are/were f8ckin' 'em, in most cases.

    Bernie should have them in the bag on the left, and Rand on the right.

    Parent

    I've said it before (none / 0) (#133)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:25:13 PM EST
    I'll say it again - 8 years is a long time for younger voters.  The "youth vote" of 2008 ain't as young.  And there are new voters to deal with.

    Also, no one wins a presidential election (or primary for that matter) on the youth vote alone.  Not even Obama.

    Finally, what are we worried about here - the primary or the general?  The primary at this point doesn't look like much of a contest, and if it is, great!  And demographics make losing the general election seem  rather difficult.  It's not like everyone loved Obama in 2012, and it wasn't even very close.

    Parent

    That's why I qualified the younger vote (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:37:44 PM EST
    as those that haven't voted or only voted once. Their history doesn't go back to all the garbage that HRC has been through or her hubby's term. They were too young. The rest of us, been there, done that :)

    There's also the opportunity to piss off the women again this time around by being overly rough on HRC, while giving the boys a pass . . .  WWTSBQ comes to mind also.

    Parent

    yea (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 01:49:37 PM EST
    as someone who cast my first presidential ballot for John Kerry - I'm coming to terms with the fact that I'm no longer included in that group.

    One thing I'll say about this election season (and future election seasons) - I think that traditional media sources are losing influence in general the younger you get.

    Parent

    Influence, perhaps (none / 0) (#147)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:12:43 PM EST
    but still needed. I think the older the voter gets (as in, as time goes on) they will get a certain type of jaded towards some of the new media, since anyone can post anything. For instance, I'm not connecting with any of the campaigns via social media platforms (FB etc) because I don't want the rabble that it brings with it. Nor am I doing any thing that would invite any politician, their campaign or political party to my inbox. Ya hit a certain point in life where being slammed in social media by politics is just a bit much ;) Much easier to follow sources, look things up and yes, check the news in the long run, imo.

    Parent
    Dr. DiMaio disagrees about Freddie Gray's (none / 0) (#162)
    by McBain on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:05:32 PM EST
    autopsy conclusion...
    http://tinyurl.com/nm4cpau

     "I'd have to respectfully disagree, and I know a number of other medical examiners do. It would be more appropriate to have classified this case as either an accident or 'undetermined,' because the way it's being called a homicide is, in a way, something that a jury has to decide. A medical examiner is not a lawyer, is not a jury. ... They're saying [Gray's death] was not an unforeseen event. That's something for a jury to decide, not the doctor to decide.".

    Dr. Vincent DiMaio testified in the Zimmerman case and is considered one of the best forensic pathologists.

    I'd like to know more about how/why Gray's death was ruled a homicide and if there was any pressure on the medical examiner to do so.

    "Homicide," by definition, is ... (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:01:06 PM EST
    ... is the act of one human being that cause another's death. As that definition stands alone without a qualifying adjective, it does nothing to indicate either the illegality or lawfulness of that act.

    That said, I quite obviously have no problem with the Baltimore ME classifying Freddie Gray's death as homicide, because he found probable cause to do so in his examination of the body. And that's because I, for one, do not believe that people possess an innate physical capability to nearly sever their own spines at the neck while their hands are handcuffed behind them.

    But once again, you appear just as eager and determined as ever to prove to your own particular satisfaction -- if no one else's -- that a possible victim of alleged police misconduct was somehow primarily responsible for the fate which ultimately befell him (or her, as the case may be).

    Strictly rhetorical question here: Why is that?

    Parent

    At least we agree on one thing... (none / 0) (#182)
    by McBain on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:11:10 PM EST
    Freddie Gray was a "possible victim of alleged police misconduct"

    Parent
    Quelle surprise (none / 0) (#175)
    by sj on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:12:53 PM EST
    I'd like to know more about how/why Gray's death was ruled a homicide and if there was any pressure on the medical examiner to do so.
    No doubt you'll grasp at this straw as long as you have all the others.

    Parent
    McCaskill needs to STFU (none / 0) (#181)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:01:44 PM EST
    again

    I really hope Hillary is not behind this.  I tend to think not its just par for the course for this person

    Claire McCaskill, a major Clinton ally, unloads on Bernie Sanders

    This is not needed and it's not helping

    Of course she did (none / 0) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:13:33 PM EST
    "I think that the media is giving Bernie a pass right now," McCaskill said in an interview on MSNBC's "Morning Joe." "I very rarely read in any coverage of Bernie that he's a socialist. I think everybody wants a fight and I think they are not really giving the same scrutiny to Bernie Sanders that they're giving to, certainly, Hillary Clinton and the other candidates."

    I'm sure she did it to a chorus of affirmative nods and clucks around the "table"

    Parent

    Well she's (none / 0) (#186)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:46:31 PM EST
    wrong about the socialist part. They seem to put in every article I have seen.

    I do think though that they are not giving Bernie scrutiny just because they see him as another "fringe" candidate. They don't report much on what he is doing at all.

    Parent

    He's been getting a lot (none / 0) (#188)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:49:56 PM EST
    of coverage actually.  He is drawing absolutely huge crowds.  Filling out door stadiums.  
    That doesn't make him a threat to Hillary.  It just makes his message all the more meaningful to the primary race.    
    Many people like what he is saying.

    Parent
    I think it's (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:42:58 PM EST
    about Claire. She has to represent Missouri and she has to run for reelection there. She doesn't want to be associated with anyone that calls themselves a "socialist"

    Parent
    Why would she be (none / 0) (#187)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 05:47:15 PM EST
    shes a Hillary supporter.  Everyone knows it.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 06:08:29 PM EST
    why did she trash Hillary in 2008? She did the same thing claiming it was about MO etc.

    It's just who she is. I don't know why people don't realize that.

    Parent

    ... has completely and almost willfully mischaracterized Sen. McCaskill's observations, a good deal of which was actually directed at the media itself, and was not necessarily about Sen. Sanders per se.

    Like so many of the other cocktail party chatterers who populate our Fourth Estate in the Beltway nowadays, the folks at Tiger Beat by the Potomac want to see a food fight in the Democratic Party, just like the one that's currently brewing in the GOP. And if they have to manufacture controversy where it might otherwise not exist in order to cause one, then so be it.

    I don't disagree at all with Sen. McCaskill's contention that "[the media] are not really giving the same scrutiny to Bernie Sanders that they're giving to, certainly, Hillary Clinton and the other candidates."

    For whatever its reasons, that media establishment has deigned to cast Sen. Sanders as a useful agent provocateur in its own "War on Hillary and That Wayward Penis She Calls Her Husband." And in that regard, they see no real need to delve into his political history and background at the present time -- with emphasis on the phrase "at the present time."

    Yes, it's true that Bernie Sanders is an avowed and unapologetic socialist, and that the media has thus far seen fit -- again, for whatever their reasons -- to ignore that fact. But let's realize that the media has also not shown much if any interest in Sanders' very real accomplishments as the longtime mayor of Burlington, VT.

    That record shows him to be an effective public official whose tenacity, resolve, policies and actions were primarily responsible for the extraordinary rebirth of that once-decaying and derelict city, allowing it to move out from the shadows of its Industrial Age past and into a very promising future.

    Bernie Sanders is one of the good guys. And quite honestly, the American people really should learn more about this rather remarkable man -- especially in face of the political milieu of opportunists, scoundrels and certifiable loons who are jockeying for position within the GOP.

    That said, I also share McCaskill's belief that the Vermont senator is much too liberal to be elected president. And in that regard, I freely admit that my own support for Hillary Clinton is grounded primarily on that entirely practical reason. She's electable, at a time when the alternative being offered by the GOP is unthinkable.

    But to be perfectly frank, that's certainly no knock on Sanders personally, but rather offers an entirely logical -- if altogether depressing -- conclusion about the currently polarized state of our country's politics as a whole.

    So, it's not that Bernie isn't worthy of us. Far from it. Instead, I'd say that right now, we are not really worthy of Bernie. Further, I think Sanders himself is likely fully cognizant of the fact that he's unelectable, given the present political climate.

    Rather, through his candidacy, he seeks to drive the public discussion to the left, away from the divisive clown car rhetoric on the right that captivates far too many people's attentions, and thus compel us to honestly confront real issues that truly matter in people's daily lives.

    I applaud him for that, because we need it.

    Parent

    It's not just politico (none / 0) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 06:51:09 PM EST
    thats the headline.  Some omit "Hillary supporter". Most don't.  I watched the video.  They did not mischaracterize the tone.

    I really dislike her.  I always did.  I understand she is from a red state.  I don't have to like her.

    Parent

    Bernie don't not think it was mischaracterized (none / 0) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 06:54:37 PM EST
    "To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that a colleague has attacked me," said Sanders, a Vermont socialist who joined the presidential race about two months ago, in an interview with Bloomberg Politics' Mark Halperin and John Heilemann. "You'll have to ask Senator McCaskill why."


    Parent
    Charlie (none / 0) (#195)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:29:45 PM EST
    points out this nugget,
     
    Mark Halperin asked McCaskill for three policy positions held by Sanders that she would call Socialist positions. McCaskill's gob was utterly smacked. She danced around the question for a while and then settled on the following: a) that Sanders wants to expand entitlements; b) that he supports universal health-care, and c) that he is unsound on The Debt.

    Looks like
    A: Old school Democrat
    B: New school Democrat
    C: Every Republican president since Herbert Hoover.

    Quite the radical there, Claire.

    Parent

    HA (none / 0) (#197)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:37:45 PM EST
    I flipped on the TV, forgetting as I did so that I'd been watching MSNBC the night before. Hence, I was pushed into the middle of Squint and the Meat Puppet

    Awsum

    Parent

    The problem for Sanders (none / 0) (#198)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:44:42 PM EST
    is he can only win Vermont. His second best chance is New Hampshire and by law right now he isn't even eligible to be on the ballot.

    His campaign is likely to look quite a bit similar the second coming of Howard Dean...lots of talk but only victorious in Vermont.

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#199)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:06:05 PM EST
    this is eerily reminiscent of Howard Dean's campaign. All the people coming to the rallies etc. which never translated into actual voters.

    Parent
    This (none / 0) (#201)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:17:40 PM EST
    link

    seems to best describe what is going on with Bernie vs. Hillary in the primaries. Bernie is a wine rack candidate and Hillary is a beer rack candidate.

    I just realized that (none / 0) (#203)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:49:40 PM EST
    I owe Fljoe an answer to his question re what I think we should do re ISIS as our hostess saw my response as off topic for that thread and deleted it. Since this an open thread...

    Whether we like it or not we have created a world in which we need to be its policeman. The world was a much better place immediately after the Cold War was over and we enjoyed a small measure of Pax Roma.

    While I don't see this as a gift shop, "You break it You own it" type of thing we treated the rest of the world as special children who should be allowed to grow up without really facing the cold cruel world.

    As a result thousands are dying most horrible deaths and ISIS is expanding very rapidly.

    ISIS must be stopped.

    Mordiggian, you are always ready to talk about how badly we treated the NA's. Here's some news for you. The NA's fought each other over territory, practiced cannibalism, practiced slavery, sacrificed humans to various Gods and had a God head type culture.

    Outside of cannibalism the Europeans were mostly the same but the Europeans had better technology and germs. The NA's lost.  

    A more interesting question is how the Europeans, with a very small population base, was able to rule the larger group. I think it is simple. As bad as the European culture was by our standards it was far better than the NA's culture. A promise of eternal life for obeying is better than a promise to sacrifice your virgin daughter to the Moon God if you disobey.

    et al - Our civilian government makes the decision to fight or not. The military tells us what resources they need to do our bidding and also gives advice.

    They told Obama to stay in Iraq.

    You all have a nice night!

    Fact be facts Jim (none / 0) (#204)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:23:40 PM EST
    As for hissing, let's look at the record, shall we?

    Oh, it was taken the 21st and the 23rd, so you're telling us that a mere 7-12 days later, it's possible that the WSJ/NBC poll was wrong and the more recent one is right.</s>

    Suggests their polling isn't all that great, and nothing has happened in the last 7-10 days that would cause such a difference in the polling.  
    You're not a stupid man, but you've yet to give a reason as to why the poll would be accurate and the WSJ/NBC one wouldn't be.

    Looking here, it seems that the Fox polls are the only ones showing Hillary narrowly beating any Republican challenger.

    Let me guess, it's that MSM behind it, amiright?


    am i right, since you didn't get it the first time.

    But it is amusing that you think we got all hissy when it was you who then stated that stated you weren't vouching for the accuracy.

    If it's not accurate, why talk about it in the first place?

    As for he methodology of the two polls, the WSJ/NBC poll doesn't explicitly mention registered voters, but otherwise the sample sizes and other things, including the M of E, are pretty almost the same.

    Sorry to point out all your mistakes in looking at this poll as some sort of sign of gloom and doom for us libruls while you take a victory lap for an election that is more than a year away.

    Logic, Jim.  Look into it sometime.

    Jim, I'm sorry but if you look at (none / 0) (#205)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:37:55 PM EST
    my comments, I haven't said jack Sh*t about how the NAs were treated badly, but we didn't exploit their land and dispossess them because of their evil ways.

    You're a smart man, you know we did it because people could make money from he land we took from them (Black Hills) and settle on the land, and we could get away with it.  

    Two wrongs don't make a right.  Didn't you learn that in school?

    Oh, and you forgot to mention in your comparison of NA and European culture that, until they were supressed and started getting the short end of the stick, many Europeans were known to go take up life with the NAs, and this was considered a big problem in the 17th and 18th Centuries, because none of the Europeans went back.. This was during the same time that the Puritians of Boston and MA were executing Quakers for being heretics in the 1740s.  So much for the superiority of ChristianIty over the culture of the NAs of New England.</s>

    Oh, and many NA cultures didn't perform human sacrifice in their worship ceremonies, don't be confusing the Aztecs or the Mayans or the Inca with the tribes of North America in general.

    Is this anything else you need corrected?

    Please don't make things up (none / 0) (#206)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 07:23:52 AM EST
    I didn't say what the Europeans did was right.

    In fact, I said the opposite.

    I said they had done he same, with the exception of cannibalism, as the NA's. I should have included human sacrifice. Executing people for violation of the law is not the same as a human sacrifice.  But no matter, I agree that the Europeans were mean and nasty.

    When compared to our standards today.

    And the word Native American includes all the tribes, not just the ones you want to cherry pick.

    Re the polls. If it is possible that the WSJ poll is wrong and if it is possible that the FNC poll is right... Why the all the dithering and posturing?? I just posted a poll result because I found it interesting and shows a fall in Hillary's fortunes.......and that sent shivers up you all's spines.

    Have a nice day!

    Wrong again (none / 0) (#207)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 07:57:01 AM EST
    I didn't say what the Europeans did was right.
    In fact, I said the opposite.

    Really?

    I said they had done he same, with the exception of cannibalism, as the NA's.

    I don't remember the NAs' killing fellow tribesmen or others because of a difference over their religion, like the good Puritains of MA.  

    And cannibalism wasn't practiced by all the tribes, or even the majority of them.

    I should have included human sacrifice. Executing people for violation of the law is not the same as a human sacrifice.  But no matter, I agree that the Europeans were mean and nasty.

    As is true of some of their descendants to this day.  Glad to see that some things never change.

    When compared to our standards today.

    Really?

    And the word Native American includes all the tribes, not just the ones you want to cherry pick.

    You're the one who wants to paint them with the same brush, I'm the one pointing out THEY DIDN'T ALL PRACTICE TOURTURE AND CANNIBALISM as you continue to imply.

    As for the polls, I'm just pointing it's an outlier, and, as I wrote on this thread earlier:

    As for being joyous, Jim, I'm well-aware that she has a long row to hoe ahead of her, and she was also ahead of Obama in similar polls, so the results at his time may mean nothing.  

    I'm just pointing out the general trend here in the polling, and you want us to pay attention to the Fox poll despite the fact that

    I trust none of them

    But you're willing to crow about the results when they come in your favor, as you did in your initial entry on this thread.

    Thanks for allowing me to point out your obvious and severe mistakes on this thread.

    Aloha!

    I am glad to see (none / 0) (#209)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:26:48 AM EST
    that you want to differentiate the NA tribes but not the Europeans.

    As is true of some of their descendants to this day.  Glad to see that some things never change.

    Your bias is astonishing but expected.

    And yes, really. Judging the actions of people hundreds of years ago to condemn people today is like punishing people for breaking a law that wasn't in existence when they "broke" it.

    And this is "crowing?"

    Looks like Hillary and Jeb are (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:10:39 AM CST
    neck and neck with Rubio only a point behind.
    What happened to those double digit leads?

    Your sensitivity to bad news and your attempt to evade reality is risible...

    You all have a nice day now! I'm done trying to debate you. It's like pushing a "bounce ball."


    Poor Jim! (none / 0) (#211)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:55:09 AM EST
    That you want to differentiate the NA tribes but not the Europeans.

    Not at all.  Some of them like Roger Williams and William Penn tried to treat the NAs fairly.  You could look up more exceptions like them in the colonial history of this country, but, as even you have to admit, they were the exception to the way the vast majority of Europeans treated the NAs.

    Your bias is astonishing but expected.

    I'm just telling the truth as I see it, Jim, same as you.  Being of part-European heritage myself, I don't have the need to pretend that they are the best thing on the planet.

    And yes, really. Judging the actions of people hundreds of years ago to condemn people today is like punishing people for breaking a law that wasn't in existence when they "broke" it.

    Who am I condemning today?  Your statement really makes no sense.  You're the one who brought up the NAs in this thread.

    And, as you usually do around here, when the discussion doesn't go,your way, you start making things up in order to 'win' the conversation.

    As for crowing, you're the one who believes that a poll this far from the election means something, even when it isn't in line with similar polls, like the WSJ/NBC poll.  You can't even bring yourself to say it's accurate and the others aren't, but you still tout it nevertheless.  

    As for my sensitivity, I was the one who said that it isn't a sure thing for Hillary yet, and you label everything I wrote here as attempting to evade reality.

    As for debating me, you never answered any of my questions here, so it never got started on your part.  Think people didn't notice that?

    Keep up the good work, Jim.  You're doing more to discredit conservatism and Fox Snews than a whole brigade of ACORN workers.