ISIS Publishes Video of Extremely Cruel Killings

ISIS continues to shock the world with atrocity killings. Its latest video, filmed in or around Mosul and released by the Nineveh Wilayat, is titled "If You Promised We Came Back." I won't link to it, but I did watch it.

In the 7 minute video, orange-clad prisoners are divided into three groups. Each makes a statement. The first group is put inside a vehicle. An ISIS member fires a grenade missile launcher at the car, blowing it up and setting it on fire. The prisoners burn to death inside the vehicle.

The second group are put in a cage, suspended over water. The cage is lowered and they drown to death. There's a camera underwater filming their painful drowning.[More...]

The third group is forced to kneel on the ground while an ISIS member ties a detonation cord around each, so they are connected to each other. They are then blown up.

The video ends with one prisoner watching the carnage of his fellow prisoners.

The video is extremely high quality, you watch the emotion on each prisoner's face as they are led to their death and hear their screams while dying.

Also today, ISIS released a new audio statement by spokesman Mohammed al-Adnani. In it, he calls on Muslims to repent and warns not to fight against IS. An English translation is here.

What will you gain from fighting the Islamic State? Does one of you desire to dig his grave with his own hands, or wish to have his head cut off, or his house demolished? What will you gain from fighting the Islamic State, O factions? Do you think that you will be able to eradicate it? Do you think that you are stronger in might than the Sahwāt of Iraq backed by America and its allies? Will you not take a lesson from the factions of Shām and their Sahwāt?

He says of Obama and the Western coalition:

As for the mule of the Jews, the failing Obama, his incapable party, his weak coalition, and his defeated army, then we say: Throughout history we have never heard of tactical setbacks. But we promise you in the future with more and more setbacks, inshā’allāh, and with surprises followed by surprises. So watch, we are also watching.

< Benghazi Suspect Ali Awni al-Harzi Killed in Mosul Drone Strike | Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Speaks at Sentencing >
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  • Display: Sort:
    That makes my whole spirit hurt (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by sj on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 04:58:35 PM EST

    I don't care what these guys tell (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 05:07:38 PM EST
    Themselves, there is no heaven that will take them.

    Sometimes (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 05:24:26 PM EST
    i wonder f they even really believe it.  Or believe in anything.   It all seems so ......theatrical.   Part of me wants to think these glossy horrors are part of some Hollywood plot.  Not real.   How could they be real.   Who would do that and produce a slick professionally done record of it.  
    These awful films will be studied for hundreds of years.   Hopefully they will be studied as abnormal psychology.   A world where they are studied as anything else is to frightening to imagine.

    You know what's odd (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 06:03:24 PM EST
    My husband agrees with you and says these videos will be studied for years too.  He can't watch them, it hurts his heart too much, but the faces and the environmental settings were experienced by him...not me.

    How could they not be (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 06:30:54 PM EST
    they are unlike anything in the history of the world so far.   Brutality like this has always existed.  And been witnessed by a few and even filmed.  During the  holocaust visual records were made but they were not artfully made.  Even by the standards of the day.  These things are very well made.   They of a quality any camera person or editor would be proud to have on an employment reel.  
    They are messages from hell.  Which is apparently well staffed.

    I think critical analysis is second nature to (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 08:48:53 PM EST
    You and him.  I experience events, I do analyze but it's secondary.  You were born to analyze situations at the git and so was he.  When he first said it I couldn't fathom what was worth studying or why.  I understand on the rethink, not my initial response.  Perhaps it is my desire to eventually be able find some denial too when events are so horrific.  If I don't study certain things they can stay on the perimeter of my reality forever.

    Orange jumpsuits and drowning. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 05:31:53 PM EST
    They're playing to their base, revisiting the spectre of Abu Ghraib waterboarding.

    Really? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 05:59:53 PM EST
    I watched the video.  I'm not finding the correlation.  My poor husband was looking over my shoulder when they detonated the prisoners all together. He's traumatized now, he can't watch things like that. Then they reversed the film and the prisoners pieces came back together again and they re-blew them up.  Not finding correlation.

    Waterboarding is drowning. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 06:47:00 PM EST
    What did you think it was?

    I can't bear to (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by sj on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 12:19:52 PM EST
    I can't watch. I just can't. I know there are valid reasons to do so, but none of those reasons apply to me. I can't bear to watch lives so brutally taken. They are someone's sons and fathers and brothers. I just can't watch.

    When my Mom and brother died in a car accident I was haunted for years at the thought of the gawking by passers-by. I don't want to be a passer-by.


    If you think (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:05:44 PM EST
    feeling a kind of responsibility to bear witness to the deaths on these videos has any relation whatsoever to a drive by lookeyloo - which I hate more than anything on earth - you really don't understand at all.

    did you read (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by The Addams Family on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:57:13 PM EST
    the part of sj's comment where she says she knows there are valid reasons to watch the ISIS videos? & the part of a later comment where she acknowledges a duty to bear witness?

    your reprimand is unfair


    It was not a reprimand (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 06:02:58 PM EST
    it was an opinion that comparing viewing these awful videos to ghoulish highway drive bys misunderstands both acts.

    To be more clear (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 06:17:28 PM EST
    as I said, I hate this thing that people do on the highway more than anything.  It's the most ignorant ghoulish insensitive thing you can do in or out of a car IMO.  And I believe it's one of the stupid things MANY people do because of the anonymity of being in a car.   If you have ever been in that situation you know people wait their turn and then creep by making sure they get a good look.  It make my skin crawl.
    I suppose I take particular offense at the idea that would have anything whatever to do with my reasons for seeing these videos.  It does not.  I do not look at them out of curiosity or morbid fascination.  I believe they are important historical artifacts.  I also think it's owed to the people who die in them.

    The horror of what was done to them should not ignored or glossed over or forgotten.

    I said before.  I understand why someone might not feel that way.  I do not condemn them.  Don't condemn me project motives onto me.


    That said (none / 0) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 06:49:26 PM EST
    it would be pretty easy to convince me that for some people the reasons for both might overlap.

    Just saying that is not me.


    Jeralyn, how can you possibly watch that? (none / 0) (#5)
    by leap on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 05:57:58 PM EST
    It cannot be good for you.

    It really happened (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 06:05:55 PM EST
    I watch the videos out of respect for the victims and to be aware of the existing reality.  This is really happening, it really happened to these poor people and they are dead now.

    Even though I can't do it (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by sj on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 12:20:49 PM EST
    You're right that someone(s) need to bear witness.

    What is not good (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    is any form of denial.   They need to be seen.  Literally to be believed.

    What do we do? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 07:17:22 PM EST
    Sure this is goading by these inhuman ba#$t@rd$.  What kind of kick these SOBs get out of filming the depth of their depravity isn't even a question anymore.  And, none of this referral to how bad/wrong we or anyone else were in different times and ages.  Bu!!.  

    Thank goodness that our President is a calm, measured, thoughtful person.  If it were up to someone like me, well ... this atrocious killing-machine is beyond any justification.  And, at some point, there will be the appropriate response by the US and the rest of the world.  At some point, there will and should be a response that abnegates what they are ... because for us to fall prey to being and feeling rendered helpless is nothing more than denial as well.  This will come down to be strong with smart.


    I am glad (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 07:41:26 PM EST
    what we "do" is not my decision.

    This isn't goading us (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 08:51:55 PM EST
    This is a message meant to terrorize other Muslims who might choose to fight or not support IS.

    Certainly, it is that ... and more (none / 0) (#17)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 09:32:48 PM EST
    If we choose for it to be (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 09:43:09 PM EST
    It's a Muslim civil war.  What we can do to bring peace has more to do with diplomatic leverage and actions than any other form of action.  I don't know how we fight this extremism terrorism if the Muslim majority isn't hell bent on fighting it.  We are doomed to fail if we think this is our fight.

    Containment (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by christinep on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 02:33:12 PM EST
    MT: First, excuse my angry outburst yesterday. As ISIS appears to keep moving the boundaries of brutal sadism, I find it harder to calm down, take a deep breath, etc.  When I compose myself--after alternating between my initial response of undifferentiated anger mixed with my desire for diplomacy and peaceful initiatives--I find myself in accord with your statement here.

    The word and strategy that recurs in my thinking here is "containment."  That is: If there was a way that Cold War strategists could find their way to a consensus on containment in the days of the Soviet Union, I'm thinking that it should be possible to incorporate a strategy based on that principle now as to ISIS and its aggressive (and potentially threatening) recruitment extension efforts in the West.  It is different than "drawing lines in the sand" and different than general bellicose talk.  Call it, maybe, a muscular containment and diplomacy.


    Thank you Christine (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:52:14 AM EST
    I didn't know you were angry, the beauty of blogs :) Passionate yes, and it is a topic that it is almost impossible to not be passionate about in some form.

    The classified nature of what is being done leaves everyone in the dark wondering what is being done. We have so many nations on board with us though, most of NATO. They are IMO taking careful positions on the battlefield.

    This reminds me of when we fought the Iraq branch of al Qaeda, and for 18 months the only news the press had were things that seemed to bode well for al Qaeda, and that's because the side fighting them had nothing to say...nothing to share because of opsec.


    If we choose for it to be (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 09:43:32 PM EST
    It's a Muslim civil war.  What we can do to bring peace has more to do with diplomatic leverage and actions than any other form of action.  I don't know how we fight this extremism terrorism if the Muslim majority isn't hell bent on fighting it.  We are doomed to fail if we think this is our fight.

    What possessed you... (none / 0) (#27)
    by sj on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 12:24:16 PM EST
    ...use this horror to bow at the shrine of Obama? And before your sanctimony train rolls out, you might want to include videos of botched executions in this country. That is our shame. But it shouldn't be brought into here. So I'm done talking about it.

    C's comment states she is glad our President (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:33:36 AM EST
    isn't goaded by the inhuman actions of ISIS into hastily involving the U.S. military in a full on war. At least that's how I understood her comment.  

    And, if she had stated it the way you just did (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:35:04 AM EST
    there would have been no, how to say it, "critique?"

    In other words, "shittcan the poetic license."


    After reading this, I'm done with it also (none / 0) (#64)
    by christinep on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 10:35:03 PM EST
    No one is bowing to anyone: What I said is that it helps to have a calm leader ... like the one we have.  That, sj, was a reflection on my own lack of calm when reading about these depraved deeds.

    I really don't think.... (none / 0) (#71)
    by unitron on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 11:51:51 PM EST
    ...that you can equate executions in this country, which are botched in part due to those carrying them out not doing them week in and week out, to what's being done over there with sadistic glee.

    I mean, cruel and unusual is what those guys are actively trying to achieve, not an unintended result.


    I don't think not watching these videos should be (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by vml68 on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 10:59:49 PM EST
    equated to denial.
    If I watch a movie with very graphic violence, it stays with me and leaves me feeling upset for days. And, that's make believe!
    I cannot imagine what it would do to me to watch it when it is real and I don't intend to find out. Jeralyn's description of the videos is horrifying enough.

    Just because I refuse to watch someone get tortured/raped/mutilated/murdered does not mean that I don't believe these things happen.


    Agreed 100,000% (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 10:05:33 AM EST
    Yesterday, I received something in the mail with a fifty cent piece shining from it.  I will not mention what picture was on the envelope, but it had to do with animal cruelty.

    I threw it away, but it stayed with me all night and now as I recollect it, it ticks me off and I am mad I didn't call them.  Needless to say, the $.50 they could have spent on helping rather than revolting, is now currently in my trash can and the dollars I do send, and I am generous to animal groups, will never go to them.

    The idea that I don't understand what cruelty is to humans or animals without seeing, it is absurd and rather insulting.


    The comment I responded to (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 11:38:00 AM EST
    was asking J why or how SHE could watch the videos.  She has said before that she wants to discuss them so she feels she needs to see them.   I feel the same.  I really don't care who does or doesn't watch the videos.  I can certainly understand not wishing to see them.  It's certainly a personal choice.   Whatever.

    If you feel good getting your information from someone like J who is willing to watch them for you that's your choice.

    No one enjoys watching them.

    Funny thing. I am totally unable to watch the ASPCA commercials.  I can't do it.  I can't see animals suffer.  But I can watch ISIS videos.  Occaisionslly.  Shrug.   I have not and probably won't see the new one.

    I was not equating anything to anything.  


    I Read It... (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 12:43:17 PM EST
    ...as if we didn't see them we wouldn't be able to grasp what happened.

    I am the same way with the news, the animal stuff bothers me infinitely more than the human stuff.  I think it's because at least humans know why it happening.


    Viewing cruelty to animals (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 03:29:34 PM EST
    has more of an emotional effect on both of you than viewing cruetly to animals.  Very interesting. Wondering how many second that.

    Your grammar is cruelty: (none / 0) (#31)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 04:30:28 PM EST
    "Viewing cruelty to animals"
    "....than viewing cruetly to animals."

    (I still love, regardless of my migraine:)


    Pretty poor, I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 04:55:32 PM EST
    How many are more emotionally impacted by cruelty to animals than by cruelty to humans?

    Well people get to see realistic portrayals (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:01:18 PM EST
    of cruelty to humans all the time in movies and tv..

    A lot of people seem dulled to even the most starkly realistic portrayals of sadism and violence.. many even seem to crave it..

    You hear more than a few people say how they "love violent movies"..


    Yeah (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:08:59 PM EST
    you could go with your damming and insulting explanation or you could go with Scott's

    I think it's because at least humans know why it happening.

    That (knowing why one human being is (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:15:30 PM EST
    inflicting cruelty.on another human being) making it easier to watch doesn't make sense to me.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:18:56 PM EST
    I had never considered it (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:36:34 PM EST
    in Scott's terms but it does strike a cord.  I really have no idea.  It's undeniable that I like animals more than humans generally speaking.

    Of course you do, (none / 0) (#73)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:13:41 AM EST
    so do I, and, so does almost anyone you would ask. But, since our world is a little more complicated than to be always available for a yes/no, black/white, up/down restriction to explaining it, let's try the old, "what the definition of ("is" is) explanation.

    There, great example, kinda proud of myself for that. Now, Of course you remember the Bill Clinton, ("is," is) controversy. To you, me, and almost 99.9% of the world's population brushed it off as merely another, patented Bubba attempt to slither out of the bad spot he found himself in. But, you and I aren't lawyers. Bill Clinton is (and was) and the discussion was being held, not at your corner bar, but in a court of law. And, in a court of law, Clinton's explanation was spot-on in winning the point of law that the ("is," is) defense Bill introduced was the right one, and was successful.

    Now, what does all that have to do with the liking of animals discussion we were having? Just that the response Everybody concludes is the right one, sometimes is exactly the wrong one.

    Back to the animals. There's nothing wrong with claiming to like animals more than humans. And, going even further, there's nothing wrong with actually liking animals more than humans. It's completely logical, and, psychologically reasonable. Animals are far less complex than humans are. They're not the sneaky, conniving, and duplicitous creatures humans are. With animals, what you see is what you got. When they love you, they love you unconditionally. (Excuse me here,  Godwin) but, I'm quite sure Hitler's German Shepherds just adored him.

    Now, if you turn the question around a little bit, like:

    Suppose you were the actual decision maker, and your choices were:

    A. Execute the beautiful, adorable, loving (and innocent) Irish Setter sitting before you?


    B. Execute the world's biggest jerk, the one lacking even the most primitive of social graces, but, also innocent of any crime?

    Then, after you get all the snarky comments, and all the knee-jerk, emotional outbursts out of the way, I assume that, heartbreaking as it is, Fido will have to go. Hate it with your entire being, but, in the end, you know what the deal is.

    Jeez, I hope I made some sense.


    However (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:59:27 AM EST
    i love setters.  They are sweet beautiful animals.  But not in my experience not the brightest.

    If it was the jerk or my beloved beautiful spirit guide the white Husky with the ice blue eyes that pierce your sole, that jerk would be in some deep sh!t


    Tell me (none / 0) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:09:14 AM EST
    AW, JEEZ, HOWDY (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:21:52 AM EST
    You just had to go and do that!

    People, I spend all that time trying to tell my story in such a way that, philosophically, everyone "get's it."

    And, then the freak whips out a picture, a picture that says, "go ahead, lick my face off."  


    If the Question is... (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 10:30:18 AM EST
    ...I had to pull one of two levers, one would execute Tsarnaev, the other my dog.  I have to pick one and there would be no consequence to my forced actions, aka jail.

    I would not hesitate, the waggly tail lives.

    The real question is how far I would do down the line I could go, murders, no problem, rapist, pedophiles, more of a problem, but the dog still lives.

    Where it would get murky for me, is an animal I don't know and people that have done bad, but not real bad.

    The good news, never a choice I will have to make.

    I also wanted to mention that the answer in #28, was only a guess.  I had a gf ask me the same thing when I changed the channel when animal cruelty commercial came on.  The fact is I don't know why, it just my mental make-up that allows me to feel more compassion for animals that human beings.


    It did, yes (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 07:05:46 AM EST
    but I have to tell you, that last part, it would be VERY close for me.

    "I think I could turn and (none / 0) (#94)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:29:13 PM EST
    live with the animals. They are so placid and self-contained.."

    I'm not exactly sure how (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:27:11 PM EST
    that was insulting..

    The insinuation that the human fascination with perversity might on some level, with some people, be connected to a jaded, apathetic attitude toward other's suffering?

    Gee, what are you going to tell me? "You'll never work in this town again"?


    That's a pretty common retort. (none / 0) (#41)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:16:39 PM EST
    I've heard the, "I'd give'm the death sentence," as it's used regarding animal cruelty vs humans all my life.

    But, I really, really.............really don't believe they meant it literally.

    So, come now, you didn't either, did you? Hmmmmm?


    I have no idea, actually. (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:20:13 PM EST
    I seem to be missing the animal lover gene. And I haven't read or watched GofT!

    I'm with you (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:23:23 PM EST
    Although I have read and watched GOT.

    Not that I enjoy cruelty to animals. But I eat meat. So on some level I'm okay with killing healthy animals.  I'd prefer it to be humane.  But under no circumstances am I okay with killing healthy humans.


    okay nevermind (none / 0) (#48)
    by CST on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:24:47 PM EST
    self-defense, certain wars...

    This just got more complicated.  Still human life is more important to me.


    So much conflating going on here (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:27:07 PM EST
    i eat meat and have no problem with that.  That does not mean I want their deaths or lives to be painful or cruel.

    Suggesting anyone is "ok with killing healthy humans" is hysterical and ridiculous.


    ISIS clearly is... (none / 0) (#55)
    by CST on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:55:54 PM EST
    I certainly wasn't intending it as a universal thing.  Just giving an example of how I value human life over animals.  That doesn't mean I want animals to suffer but it doesn't have the same kind of impact to me.

    Understood (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 06:30:08 PM EST
    its an interesting thing to consider.  Considering I never really thought that much about it.  I have speculated in these threads before it might have something to do with 20 of producing gory movie effects.   But I really don't think that's it.
    Because it's not just gore.  For example, I hate those commercials of starving abandoned children covered in flies.  I hate them and find them very hard to watch but I don't have to change the channel or leave the room like the animal cruelty commercials.
    I can't really explain it but it probably has something to do with why I live alone and have a house full of rescue animals.

    Seems to me.... (none / 0) (#99)
    by unitron on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:19:49 PM EST
    "Suggesting anyone is "ok with killing healthy humans" is hysterical and ridiculous."

    ...that ISIS is more than just okay with it.


    Was that acronym (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:24:09 PM EST
    For Game of f@cking Thrones?

    I read it as (none / 0) (#49)
    by CST on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:25:22 PM EST
    G of T

    It was a joke (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:27:29 PM EST
    You will likely pass from this world (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:56:59 AM EST
    Without watching a single episode of GoT. I would go to one of those Tudor operas with you though!  Did you read that the North Carolina shooter when fighting with his parents would sit in his car in the driveway and blast opera :)?

    First Justice Scalia, and now this? (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:03:06 PM EST
    I was so excited last night when (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:41:59 AM EST
    The news began discussing that almost down to the word, how Scalia has written that a statute should be judged, is how it was judged. I have a really bad sinus infection right now but excitedly I chirped up, "Hey, I know this!"  Only from reading BTD's applesauce though :)

    Linda Greenhouse's article (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:54:56 AM EST
    in the opinion section of the NYT really nails his duplicity.

    As always (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 12:39:07 PM EST
    Thank you for sharing your finds.

    To which NC shooter ... (none / 0) (#100)
    by unitron on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:20:33 PM EST
    ...do you refer?

    I didn't really understand that (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:20:32 PM EST
    I am quite vocal about opposing the death penalty for any species.



    Sorry (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:21:29 PM EST
    parent, right.

    I know I am in the extreme minority on this (none / 0) (#70)
    by vml68 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 11:17:11 PM EST
    but I view the death penalty as more humane than locking someone (human or animal) up for the rest of their lives.
    If I were 21, like Tsarnaev and facing the rest of my life ( most likely 50-60 years) behind bars, I would want them to put me out of my misery. For me, death is more merciful than a lifetime being locked up.

    IMO (none / 0) (#81)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 09:28:31 AM EST
    Then he can do it to himself.  I have no problem with suicide.  I'm not going to make that decision for a person.

    VML... (none / 0) (#83)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:05:00 AM EST
    ...as I understand it, many people wanted him locked up for life as they believed it was worse than death.  

    Which is interesting, so say the least.  Doing the humane thing for inhumane reasons, or at least that is how it certainly could be argued.  To some, like yourself, the death penalty is viewed as the most humane punishment for someone so young.

    I am not sure, as isolation would not bother me as much as most and the idea that someone else is going to determine when I die would be very difficult for me.


    Isolation does not bother me either. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by vml68 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:12:40 PM EST
    I am not sure, as isolation would not bother me as much as most and the idea that someone else is going to determine when I die would be very difficult for me.

    I can spend long periods of time with no human contact. But, the fact that I have the choice to pick a phone and talk to someone or go out to meet someone at any given moment, should I want to, makes all the difference. Also, my dogs are always with me. Not sure I would last too long without them.

    When I think of prison, it is not the isolation that I fear, it is the possibility of physical and mental abuse, rape, the lack of dignity, the lack of control, etc.

    Ironically, while lack of control in my life is a big deal for me, having someone else determine when I die would not be difficult for me.
    CST mentioned suicide, that is something I cannot wrap my head around. I would need someone else to do the dirty work. I cannot imagine doing it myself no matter how desperate/hopeless I might be feeling.


    My hand is raised. (none / 0) (#69)
    by vml68 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 11:02:49 PM EST
    How many are more emotionally impacted by cruelty to animals than by cruelty to humans?

    Watching cruelty to both humans and animals leave me feeling mentally "off" for a while but only cruelty to animals will have me crying in an instant. Humans, not so much. I've been that way since I was a child. I don't really have an explanation for it.


    It disturbs me that so many people (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 11:36:52 AM EST
    Care more about dogs than fellow human beings.  Dogs don't have episodic memory so recover much much more easily from trauma and abuse than people do.  In spite of loads of doggy writings where authors humanize dogs, dogs don't remember specific events. So a dog in a bad situation likely will not have the scars that a human in a bad situation will.

    According to recent research too, some dogs are born shy and introverted just like people are. So adopting a shy introverted dog does not mean it was abused. And if it remains shy and introverted after being fully introduced into your household, was probably born that way.


    If you don't think dogs remember (5.00 / 5) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:04:33 PM EST
    specific events, try slapping your dog really hard and see if he remembers.

    Actually don do that.  Try hiding some treat in a specific place.


    Dogs respond via repetition (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:37:17 PM EST
    They have great smell too.  That's how they find the treat.

    They have some memory, but not episodic memory, that's science based fact.  They do not have the cause and affect prefrontal cortex that we have.

    When training a dog, repetition is most important along with a bond.  They can't take loads of training either, 15 to 30 mmins twice a day.  If you have a beautifully trained obedience titled dog and you don't work him through his training for  a few years, he will fail an obedience trial.

    I have had dogs that had led a very abused existence though slip their muzzle immediately under my hand.  They know who is a dog person, and it appears that that part of their brain has grown and is different  from wolves. That portion has been humanized, they can read us. But they don't have episodic memory.


    That doesn't account for (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by sj on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 03:22:11 PM EST
    how for weeks my dogs looked eagerly for the cat on the stone wall that was only there once. For only one example.

    I'm happy to give you the point on the prefrontal cortex theory as I am not a neurologist. But I will say that, in humans, often when a part of the brain suffers trauma and/or damage, other parts will kick in help cover the loss.

    So you can have science, and I'll go with observation. I figure the science will catch up with me eventually.


    I Go Back & Forth... (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:43:29 PM EST
    ...with my GF about dog memory all the time.

    My dog's memory is like an elephants.  Say the word 'park' in my house, and even when discussing something else, my dog is at the door and very upset when I don't take her somewhere, even though I haven't take her to the park in at least a year, maybe even two.

    I take her with me to Galveston now, but not the park anymore since a bad incident in which I had to separate two large dogs fighting because their owners were on the phone.

    My point, she remembers that word and many others that are rarely used.  I can't speak for all dogs, but mine remembers longer than the 'experts' claim, much longer.

    Also that has absolutely nothing to do with why I hate animal suffering more than human suffering.  It never occurred to me until I read it today. It is a much more base level than that, almost instinct if you will as it's always been there, not in any way learned empathy.

    What I do find surprising is that anyone cares.  It's not like I am making decisions about what lives and dies.  I just get bothered by animal suffering more than human suffering.


    The only dogs I know of who (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 10:22:18 PM EST
    Might be getting close to having any sort of episodic memory are border collies, but they also tend to have something akin to ADHD too.

    Delilah has a vocabulary she understands of about 200 words, that is my sons therapy dog.  But she hears them daily too. She does not remember when I had her spayed, she doesn't even remember her last time at the vet.

    When she was ill once and I was upset and took her to the vet she picked up immediately how worried I was.  They read us, and MRI scans show that portion of their brain has grown.  But they do not have episodic memory.  They have reading us, instinct, and repetition.


    My cats definitely remember (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 08:31:28 AM EST
    the last trip to the vet.  If they even hear the squeak of the carrier handle, they are gone to their secret hiding place for the rest of the day.  Only food works.  I used to be able to trick them with the can opener sound, but that doesn't work any more.  It has to be fresh mahimahi.  BTW, the state of Florida just initiated a one year ban on commercial fishing for mahimahi.  Not sure when it starts, but that means no restaurants or fish markets will have them.  They are among the fastest growing fish in the ocean, so at the end of the banned year there will be giants out there.  The Florida record now stands at 88 pounds.

    Very interesting about the Mahi (none / 0) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 09:55:35 AM EST
    It was one of the fish Josh caught.  So if you catch a Mahi you release it?  Is it a big fighter? Do they usually make it into the boat in great shape? I only have experience trout fishing, and in some places it's catch and release unless the fish swallowed the hook.

    MT, sport fishermen, and women, (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 01:39:44 PM EST
    And Josh will still be able to catch ten mahimahi per day.  It's the commercial fishermen, restaurants, and fish markets that will suffer.  They will import flash frozen fish from Mexico and other places, that will still be very tasty.  Just read in the Keynoter this new rule will go into effect Tuesday.

    MT, mahimahi are among (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 01:56:18 PM EST
    The greatest fighting fish of all in the ocean.  They never stop jumping, even when you bring them on board.  Usually someone yells "hooks on the deck", and you start doing the mahimahi dance, until they are safely in the fish Box.  When you come upon a school of mahimahi, there usually are hundreds of them, so you leave one in the water, still hooked up, and the rest stay around the boat.  This gives the angler the opportunity to sight fish, in other words cast to the big ones.   It's a total frenzy that happens in minutes, and then they're gone.  Big fun.

    Josh came home blood splattered (none / 0) (#125)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 28, 2015 at 09:47:01 AM EST
    That day, and shocked along with being thrilled.  He was shocked by the hunting skills of human beings, and wild dolphins which were out hunting and munching and drove great fish right to their boat. We offered to take him again and he says he wants to schedule once a year deep sea fishing :).  I think we should get Mr out there though.  He went sailing last year on the gulf with members of 'The Quiet Birdmen'...bored goofballs.  He has never been deep sea fishing though.

    I Have a Border Collie... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 at 09:41:05 AM EST
    ... & Pit mix.  She is a sweetheart, but looks like a beast in that she has that pit head and stance.

    I would clone her if I could, no I wouldn't, but it is going to take a long time to find another BC/Pit mix, which in my non-objective opinion is the best mix eva.

    That being said, I strongly disagree with the notion that pets/animals don't remember.  Their conception of time is chaotic, but they remember things that have been done to them, the good and the bad.

    Although you wouldn't want one to balance your checkbook, dogs can count. They can also understand more than 150 words, and intentionally deceive other dogs and people to get treats, according to a psychologist and leading canine researcher.

    I saw a show where they placed balls on a TV screen, then they fell off the screen.  The sign of intelligence was whether the dog looked behind the TV for the missing ball.  That IMO is behavior above any 2 year olds.

    And this made made laugh because it's so GD true:

    During play, dogs are capable of deliberately trying to deceive other dogs and people in order to get rewards, said Coren. "And they are nearly as successful in deceiving humans as humans are in deceiving dogs."

    And "park" could easily be prey driven (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 10:25:13 PM EST
    If you throw a ball or a frisbee or take toys or treats.

    The Word 'Park' is Prey Driven... (none / 0) (#139)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    ...also know as instinct.  Good Gravy.

    That is your argument, seriously.  Dogs could have words, presumably English, imprinted in their DNA ?

    I am going with my dog can remember.


    Looking for a cat (none / 0) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:39:36 PM EST
    Is prey drive. That's instinct.  That is one reason why dogs are our great friends, their prey drive.  Hounds brought down large game and small game for the table, terriers were bred to kill rats and mice and vermin that spread diseases, herding dogs and retrieving dogs are using muted prey drive.  It's not episodic memory.

    Some dog loving researchers have attempted to fudge their studies and asked their canine participants to remember something for 10 mins and then attempted to define it as episodic memory because so many dog lovers really want their dogs to have episodic memory, but they don't.

    It is actually one of the reasons we love our dogs so much, they really don't know or even remember we had their nuts cut off, they love us the same.

    So many people overly concerned about the plight of a puppy over the plight of a child...the children see this, they get it, they understand.  Some dog people are just plain nuts.

    When I was a kid and I spent so much time with my dog and we won every obedience trial we ever entered, my father said to me one day, "You know, that dog doesn't talk back to you, it can't even comprehend how or why?"  He was right, relationship with a dog is easy, not so easy with my equals.

    There are dog people I know that profess they are so glad they have no children when I must do one demanding thing with my children or grandchildren, they prefer above all others to share company with those who don't have the ability to talk back to them or argue with them on equal footing..


    Please back up this assertion with some (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by vml68 on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 01:45:47 PM EST
    Some dog loving researchers have attempted to fudge their studies



    Purportedly elderly single females are (none / 0) (#107)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 09:59:54 PM EST
    happier living w/a dog than a man.

    Oculus, (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by fishcamp on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 08:40:06 AM EST
    how do you think that makes we elderly single men feel?  Not sure I believe, and definitely don't like that story.

    Fishcamp, I am sure you are an (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by vml68 on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 11:09:28 AM EST
    exceptionally fine older man and there are plenty of women who would fight to be with you.

    But, there are a few women like me out there who would prefer to be living alone with their dogs/cats. While I am nowhere close to elderly yet and I am also married (happily, I might add), I know that should my husband and I ever separate or if he dies before me, it is the single life with dogs for me.
    I love and enjoy the company of (most)men but I also like living alone. This is one of those, "It's not you, it's me."... :-)


    My google research this thought comes from (none / 0) (#118)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 12:25:43 PM EST
    a 2009 article about The preferences of Australian women. Other results show men who are adamant about never dating a woman who has a dog and that, contrary to popular belief, men prefer cats to dogs. And women prefer dogs to cats.

    If the Mr. doesnt take better care of himself (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 10:09:01 PM EST
    I will be joining them as I only have six dogs.

    I championed a gorgeous dog though 5 yrs ago.  God she beautiful.  She seemed to have it all.  But when my grandchildren were over playing she would not stop watching them through the window and growling.  I put her down.  No dogs over children here. And when I explained to my vet what she was doing he was great with it. But he deals with bad situations all the time, heading off a really bad occurrence was preferable in his book.

    And that was instinct.  This home was her territory, they occasionally visited and acted a little wild running around outdoors...prey drive...too much.


    wev (none / 0) (#111)
    by sj on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 12:01:37 AM EST
    I already said I would give you the science. Even when the general doesn't totally cover the specific. It isn't worth debating to me.

    I wouldn't give anyone "the science" (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by vml68 on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 12:23:09 PM EST
    just yet, as there are some things we might never know for sure.

    As someone who majored in Biology with an emphasis in Ethology in college, if there was one thing my Professors drilled into me it was that with regards to behavior you never declare anything as a "scientific fact". What you have is a scientific theory that is supported by experimental evidence and it is subject to change in the light of new evidence. And, in some cases specially when you are testing on animals there is a limit to what experiments can test.

    The problem with testing Episodic memory as this article explains is that there are slight differences in how episodic memory is defined and as such the tests/experiments are not always testing the same thing. These tests were done on humans.

    The next couple of articles are experiments based on animals.


    Scrub Jays

    For me, this is the most important takeaway from the article.

    it is important to recognize this point made by anthropologist Charles Mendel of Georgia State University: "animals are using something related to episodic memory, but not necessarily the same as in humans...animal memory systems have always been underestimated---the upper limits are not really known" [5]. It is true that the memories of non-human animals are still being explored but because of the obvious language barrier, the extent to which their memories reach may never be unearthed.

    I don't think we will ever have a clear understanding about episodic memory in animals unless they start to speak.

    Sorry to go all geeky on you, I tend to get carried away on the subject.... :-)


    To be clear (none / 0) (#119)
    by sj on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 01:30:12 PM EST
    ... when I said I would give her the science I just meant that --for me -- my experience of my dogs took precedence over my doing any research. :)

    I like yours, though. Nothing against hers :)


    I kinda knew what you meant... :-) (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by vml68 on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 02:32:07 PM EST
    I usually try to ignore the crazy and the seeming authoritativeness on a multitude of subjects.

    Then I read this...

    I championed a gorgeous dog though 5 yrs ago.  God she beautiful.  She seemed to have it all.  But when my grandchildren were over playing she would not stop watching them through the window and growling.  I put her down.  No dogs over children here.

    and lost it a little.
    I have mentioned before that I worked at a no kill shelter for years. I strongly believe that most dogs can be worked with no matter the issue or circumstances can be tailored so the issue is not a problem. It is a very rare case when there is no choice but to put a dog down.
    In the above instance, there was no mention of trying to work with the dog or finding another home for it where there would be no access to kids. I find it very disturbing.

    One of my dogs had an incident when he was about a year old where a neighbor's kid poked him with a stick when I was not around. This was a girl who had been playing with him since he was 8 weeks old. After that incident, he would go ballistic anytime he saw her. I call him my "I never forgive or forget dog".

    So, since then I have never allowed him anywhere near her, no matter how many times she insisted that she wanted to play with him. It has been 8 years and he still barks so viciously ((episodic memory?!) when he sees her that I have no doubt he would bite her given the chance. He tolerates other kids but I take no chances. I take the extra step of making sure he is never around any child unless he is leashed and completely under my control.
    We had also planned that if my husband and I had kids that my dog would go live with my parents. There are so many solutions to try before a dog gets put down. It really upset me to read that.


    My dog had an "episode" with (none / 0) (#124)
    by sj on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 05:59:24 PM EST
    a neighbor's dog. They had been playing together for months, along with a third neighbor's dog. We were all at my place having dinner when the dog belonging to neighbor number one picked a fight with my Sasha. No idea why, the only thing I can figure is that they lived in my apartment for a few months before I did and the Bassett decided to lay claim or something. Who knows.

    From that point on, she became Sasha's arch enemy. I actually hired a trainer to try and get the dogs over it but the Bassett's owner (who really could be a$$hole) wouldn't work with his dog, saying that it was Sasha who had the problem. After his dog picked a fight with my girl in her own home! Third neighbor's boxer/pit and my dog were still besties, though. I think my girl has a kind of "never forget" thing going on. She as "forgiven" a few things, but she still prefers to avoid them.

    I don't know what some scientists consider an episode, but that was sure one I hope to never repeat.


    You linked to two fudging studies (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 28, 2015 at 04:00:02 PM EST
    The scrub jay study is fudged because you are once again using an animals "prey drive"....food, which is nothing more than basic survival instinct and if they didn't have it their species would not have survived, it isn't episodic memory though. Prove this to me with an event other than something food driven.

    This is why no dog has any business deciding who should have their car searched for weed.  A dog keys in on its handler and detects for a reward.  If the handler acts like it wants the dog to detect the dog will often detect even when no drug is present, and THAT has been proven in studies.

    And the do as I do studies are using the dogs portion of the brain that reads US.  Which we can clearly, using solid science, see has drastically grown in domesticated dog breeds. Remove US from the picture though and you got nothing that resembles episodic memory.

    As my researcher friend would call it, experiments designed around achieving a desired result....or fudged studies.


    I would be very careful if I were you. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by vml68 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 at 09:50:17 PM EST
    These are the authors on the study...

    Professor Nicola S. Clayton FRS FSB FAPS C Psychol

    Professor Anthony  Dickinson FRS, Professor of Comparative Psychology, University of Cambridge

    Daniel P. Griffiths, PhD, Department of Experimental Psychology, University of Cambridge

    Like I said in my comment #121, provide conclusive proof that these studies were fudged or you are guilty of libel.

    The opinion of some loon on the internet is not proof.


    If drug detection dogs possess (none / 0) (#132)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 07:29:50 AM EST
    Episodic memory, when they falsely alert that would mean they are being dishonest, they are lying :)

    I don't believe dogs are capable of dishonesty.

    I think the dogs have simply forgotten the training.


    Seems at least as possible (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 07:52:10 AM EST
    they made a mistake.   Or lost their train of thought.  

    Or wondering if they will get home in time for the Dog Whisperer.


    Their sense of smell is very accurate (none / 0) (#134)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 09:10:27 AM EST
    The science backs that up.

    Losing train of thought?  That's forgetting, not having episodic memory :) And they aren't capable of realizing "they lost their train of thought" either....which requires episodic memory to do, they don't possess episodic memory :)


    You may be teasing (none / 0) (#136)
    by sj on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 11:15:26 AM EST
    in your first statement -- I can't tell. But if you are not then your conclusion is still silly.

    But, while it is doubtless true sometimes, I don't think dogs have necessarily forgotten the training. Sometimes they just want to please their handlers and are responding to cues the handler doesn't know he is giving.



    I Hope You are Joking... (none / 0) (#137)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 12:38:37 PM EST
    ...because it is a well know fact that drug dogs respond to their handlers as well as smell and have positively identified drugs were none existed.  They aren't lying, they are pleasing and if the link I posted above is accurate, they may be deceiving to earn treats.

    NPR: Drug-Sniffing Dogs Are Wrong More Often Than Right

    The Chicago Tribune sifted through three years worth of cases in which law enforcement used dogs to sniff out drugs in cars in suburban Chicago. According to the analysis, officers found drugs or paraphernalia in only 44 percent of cases in which the dogs had alerted them.

    When the driver was Latino, the dogs were right just just 27 percent of the time.

    Original Tribune Link

    Dogs in most areas are just a way for the cops to get into your property without a warrant.  Probably the worse example you could use to prove anything about dogs.


    I am the person in this discussion Scott (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 04:01:46 PM EST
    Who is making the exact argument you are here, and because I study dog cognition I took it a step further in that, we have scientific evidence that that portion of the domesticated dogs brain has grown...the portion that reads us trying to give us what WE want in order to get the cookie.  That is a food drive..prey drive though, if drug dogs possessed episodic memory they wouldn't be just working for the food reward, they would remember their initial drug training.

    As for trained drug dogs...or dogs in general, because dogs do not possess episodic memory they must constantly be in a state of training or they forget.


    The cat was not "prey drive" (none / 0) (#129)
    by sj on Mon Jun 29, 2015 at 05:16:39 PM EST
    We had a kitten that went through puppy-hood with them.  They like cats. And now that I think on it, the cat on the stone was a tuxedo -- like Julius was.

    I don't know why you are so invested in this question, though. Do you need to be "right" so very much?


    My dogs and cats (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 10:34:34 AM EST
    love and would die for each other

    Oh wait never mind (none / 0) (#130)
    by sj on Mon Jun 29, 2015 at 05:18:14 PM EST
    I think I found the answer to the question I just asked about why you are so invested in this when I re-read your last sentence.

    You are a loyal friend. Naturally you would align with your "researcher friend".


    He was just seated on a (none / 0) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 29, 2015 at 06:41:10 PM EST
    Very prestigious panel discussing fudged science and the current trend to fudge studies that was originally led by big pharma.  He is a very serious researcher, not a researcher for hire.

    Give me the science then (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jun 27, 2015 at 12:07:45 AM EST
    I'm glad to return the science from research scientist in this debate

    If Science Means... (none / 0) (#138)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 12:52:48 PM EST
    ...hearsay from a friend of yours with no actual source...

    I mean seriously, this is where you always go with arguments, in some way you are privy to information no one else is privy to.  

    Post some links or let it go.


    There are sources all over (none / 0) (#141)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 30, 2015 at 04:11:56 PM EST
    That people who choose to humanize animals will simply ignore.  One of the researchers vlm linked to came to the conclusion after years of study that dogs do not possess episodic memory...but that will be ignored.

    I took this response of yours to mean (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by vml68 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 10:50:49 PM EST
    What is not good is any form of denial.   They need to be seen.

    that not watching the videos was a form of denial. My apologies if I misunderstood your comment.


    However (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 11:50:01 AM EST
    I do believe that whatever you think you know and whatever you think you think about ISIS, it will change if you watch just one.

    I think ISIS is barbaric, sadistic, inhuman. (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by vml68 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 10:55:06 PM EST
    whatever you think you think about ISIS, it will change if you watch just one

    I don't believe watching one of their gruesome videos is going to change my thinking.


    Is this really worse than (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 04:51:19 PM EST
    the aerial bombardment of cities?

    ..all those children and the old and infirm who by no means all died immediately?


    jondee, there's a time & place (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:05:24 PM EST
    to address your, "Is this really worse than...?" quiz. When, and where, that is, I have no idea since the answers are infinite.

    Not everything has to have an equivalency test attached to it in order for the author's point to be appreciated.

    This post is about ISIS.

    Try to concentrate.

    There will be an open thread soon, and then you can continue your "Israel is worse than"......meme to your heart's content.

    And, no, I'm not the blog monitor. I'm just asking, as a friend, for your consideration.


    Enough already with the everyone (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 02:39:18 PM EST
    is out to get Israel paranoia. Please.

    I'm was making a wider point about how humanity set a standard of strategic expediency-in-war-time in the 20th century; crossed a moral Rubicon, that every organized group of well-armed nuts can now reference as a precedent.

    Agreed, maybe not the time and place. But there it is.


    "Howdy, yoo hoo, calling CaptHowdy!! (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 01:45:55 AM EST
    "Howdy, listen to me, guy; I've got Jondee here, he's (is it "he?" I never know) he's in considerable stress, borderline I would say. I think we (you) can save have him, man; thank god I got here just in time. Cat needs a serious hug. You know I'm no good at this kinda thing, so it's gotta be all on you, stud.

    "I'm so nervous, show us what you're made of, Capt. An anxious world is holding its collective breath. Hurry, Capt. we're almost out of time, but, don't hurt him."

    oh, oh, I can't watch........

    (Aside to Jondee: Listen, J, If you're still "with us" tomorrow, I'll get in touch with you. Whatever the problem is, I KNOW we can fix it......o.k? It's late, and I gotta go now. So, bless you, J, you, you, you're in good hands now.
    Godspeed, Howdy)


    History is the nightmare (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 26, 2015 at 02:37:35 PM EST
    I'm trying to awaken from, as the man said..

    And yes, a hug once in awhile wouldn't hurt. So sue me.


    I don't believe (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:01:11 PM EST
    I said anything like that

    No, you didn't (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 05:02:02 PM EST
    Sad and true (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2015 at 06:25:15 PM EST
    You rape our women, and you're taking over our country, and you have to go.

    Are we our brother's keeper?? (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 08:27:20 PM EST
    Whether or not ISIS is engaged in a civil war is meaningless.

    As the country with the best military and one supposedly committed to human rights we have no choice but to take all necessary steps to stop them.

    Our failure to do so shames us.

    OK Jim (4.50 / 2) (#63)
    by FlJoe on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 09:37:05 PM EST
    Give us a rough idea of the plan. How many troops for how long? Objectives?  How do we pay for it? How many casualties and collateral damage?  How would it be different from last time?

    Give us one plausible end game scenario besides the decades long occupation that you always espouse.  

    All of a sudden you are trying to make it some kind of "moral imperative" that we wage war because we are  

    committed to human rights we have no choice but to take all necessary steps to stop them
    We have always been committed to human rights, on paper at least, but we have rarely gone to war over it. War itself is a violation of human rights.

    please don't invite others to (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 04:56:43 AM EST
    make off topic comments. This thread is about ISIS. Jim's response was deleted as it was not about ISIS.

    I disagree. (none / 0) (#62)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 08:51:18 PM EST
    Our "failure to do so" proves only how difficult it is and how difficult it will continue to be.  There's no magic bullet.  There's no magic drone strike.  There's no magic policy.

    Many things that are necessary are (2.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 24, 2015 at 10:38:48 PM EST
    difficult to do. We are either a noble and caring country or we are not.

    We are not the world's policeman (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 08:51:08 AM EST
    And if we set out to be the results may well be worse than the 'threats' we aspire to destroy around the world.

    in general (none / 0) (#90)
    by CST on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:15:59 PM EST
    I kind of agree with that, although there are certainly exceptions (see Rwanda) where we could have stepped in and didn't, with the result being a massive loss of life that IMO, could've been prevented to an extent.

    With ISIS it's more complicated.  In a way, we have an even greater obligation to that region (you break it, you bought it).  That being said, because of that - the risks of intervention are also much higher.  After all, we helped provide the conditions for ISIS to form, and we have much lower credibility there because of our past actions.

    I think we helped create this beast, and as such, we have a responsibility to help fight it, but we also have the inability to do it ourselves because any military action by us that is big enough to stop ISIS would likely be counter-productive to long-term stability in the region.

    So in a sense I do agree with Jim, that we have a responsibility to those people.  But I strongly disagree with him that the type of military action he's calling for is a viable solution to this particular problem, and would most likely exacerbate the situation in the long term.


    It does fall within the Pottery Barn (none / 0) (#92)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:56:49 PM EST
    rule as stated by Powell, and given the resources there, it would be a mistake to turn our back on them unilaterally.  Intervention must be from the region, and not the Saudis expecting Uncle Sucker to protect their fundamentalist behinds as we have in the past.

    Are (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 25, 2015 at 12:01:50 PM EST
    we a noble country built on the backs of slaves on land stolen from native Americans with the help of some serious ethnic cleansing? Are we a caring country that turns it's back on our own poverty stricken children and oppressed citizens?

    For America, it needs to be physician heal thyself before we cast our self as the worlds policeman and moral authority.