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The Politics of TPP

Hillary Clinton will be the Dem nominee for President. Now Martin O'Malley or Jim Webb may not agree, but, will, she is.

That said, if Webb or O'Malley want to make a splash, there is 1 issue that might work - opposition to the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP.) I'm not going to pretend I have a substantive opinion on it, have not seen the terms (I'm generally pro free trade), but I recognize the political potency.

Greg Sargent's interview with Labor Secretary Thomas Perez highlights the difficulty of arguing for trade agreements:

THE PLUM LINE: There’s a tremendous amount of suspicion about trade deals. Prior trade deals didn’t raise wages or bargaining rights. What specifically will be in TPP that is somehow different from these other deals, from the point of view of the standard of living of American workers?

THOMAS PEREZ: I share the skepticism that my friends have about NAFTA. It was woefully weak in protecting workers and on the enforcement side. The question is: Can we meaningfully build a trade regime that has as its North Star protecting American workers and American jobs through meaningful enforcement? I think we can. It’s imperative that we not default to the status quo, which would mean we don’t fix NAFTA.

We have to bake labor provisions into the core of an agreement. TPP would do that. Under NAFTA, countries had to simply promise to uphold the laws of their own nations. Now the provisions baked into TPP are: You must enact or make sure you have already in place meaningful labor protections, such as the freedom of association, health and safety, acceptable conditions of work.

Perez is arguing that TPP can actually be a vehicle for globalizing labor rights (and presumably environmental standards). I'm sure it sounded good when some one wrote out the idea but is that really a saleable line? (I have no opinion on whether it is true. Need to study more.) I'm skeptical.

Sargent asks a vital question that really emphasizes the importance of winning the Presidency independent of "bold new ideas!":

PLUM LINE But how would the mechanism work? Is it at the discretion of a future president to pursue enforcement? Is the argument that labor shouldn’t be concerned about non-enforcement under a future labor-unfriendly president, because there will be committed prosecutors in place?

PEREZ: I can’t speak for what a future president will do. But I can say the structure is indistinguishable from the structure we have at the Justice Department to do enforcement in a wide array of civil and criminal contexts, where you have a dedicated cadre of career professionals. That critique — that a future president may do less — could apply to every aspect of enforcement. Trade is no different. We want to get the best laws on the books. Do we throw up our arms and say, “We’re just going to stick with the status quo?”

Perez is arguing for TPP, but really his argument expands the whole "It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!" argument for voting for your Party. And it's right.

But that's a general election argument, not a primaries argument. For the primaries, if Webb or O'Malley REALLY want to make a splash, this is the time and TPP is the issue.

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  • Display: Sort:
    The TPP represents the essence... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Dadler on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:26:45 AM EST
    ...of the inhumane American paradigm that money matters more than people. We give MUCH more care and concern to an inanimate object of no intrinsic value that we create out of thin air than we do to flesh and blood people. That's called a sickness. And without leadership to address it, this nation is doomed.

    Bernie Sanders (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by CST on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:37:49 AM EST
    has already taken up opposition and may end up running.

    Sigh... a girl can dream!

    Bernie really, really needs (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 03:11:39 PM EST
    To run.

    I rarely contribute to political campaigns now  but I would send Bernie money if he announces that he is actually running.

    Parent

    This Feb oped (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:55:06 AM EST
    by Warren sounds pretty scary

    http://tinyurl.com/mcq9n6k

    And pretty easy to oppose.  I don't know if this will be in the end product but if it is it's easy to think Hillary may take the opportunity to put some reasonably cautious distance between her and the president.

    Parent

    Well, many here opined that (none / 0) (#6)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:05:18 AM EST
    they'd like to see Hill be challenged from the Left; looks like we'll get that wish fulfilled.

    Parent
    We have (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:15:46 AM EST
    and she has been.  And will continue to be.  That was the consistently missed point of draft Warren.

    Parent
    How's this for a "Dream Ticket?" (none / 0) (#15)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 01:00:05 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton.......President

    Howard Dean...........Vice-President

    Elizabeth Warren...... Secretary of the Treasury

    Wesley Clark..........Secretary of Defense

    Alan Grayson..........Attorney General

    Joaquín Castro.......Secretary of Labor

    Military M.D.........Secretary of H.H.S.
    psychiatrist)

    Parent

    I'd move a couple things around (none / 0) (#18)
    by ruffian on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:00:06 PM EST
    Wes Clark for VP or Sec of State - he has a lot of post military experience in other areas than defense.

    Howard Dean  - HHS

    still pondering Sec Def

    Parent

    You are hired! (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:54:33 PM EST
    Love your picks so far :)

    I would really like Wes Clark as SOS, if he is in the game for it.

    Parent

    Who for Sec of Defense? (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:59:12 PM EST
    Hopefully a sceptic as to US military action.

    Parent
    Keep Ashton (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 05:01:33 PM EST
    Military needs more nerds, fewer Rambos

    Parent
    Yeah, well (none / 0) (#45)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:58:13 PM EST
    an accomplished General, comfortable in his own skin, without the Oedipal compulsion to prove he's superior to his father, and who understands his cerebrum is infinitely more powerful than his phallus, pretty much is worth a shot.

    Parent
    Julian Castro is, I think, (none / 0) (#25)
    by caseyOR on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:46:02 PM EST
    Hillary's best pick for VP. I think Dean is more effective outside the administration, and I just cannot picture him happy as the Veep.

    As to Warren, she has become such a force in the Senate on economic issues that I would hate to have her leave that post. Warren, like everyone who accepts a Cabinet post, would be charged with enacting the president's agenda, not with publicly advocating a different viewpoint or challenging the president.

    I would choose someone like Joe Stiglitz or Bill Black for Treasury.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:49:20 PM EST
    Dean would be fabulous and HHS and I never have understood why Obama did not pick him for the job.

    Parent
    WEll (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:50:58 PM EST
    actually I do know why. Howard Dean probably would have been too risky and too upsetting to the GOP. Better to pick someone bland like Sebelius.

    Parent
    LOL, exactly what I thought (none / 0) (#46)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 11:08:05 PM EST
    Put enough really great, really human, human beings into a room, and let the fun begin.

    Of course, I didn't place my pics just Willy Nilly here; I thought about the selections long and hard. And, I even held mock debates with myself, anticipating the feedback I'm seeing here.

    But, when you're all said and done, if you've chosen people with the characteristics we all wish we saw more of, their exact placement is just a fun exercise, only because there's no wrong spot, regardless of where you place them.

    Parent

    I am intrigued (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:56:55 PM EST
    by AG Grayson

    Parent
    and, a big issue it is (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:59:18 AM EST
    "if Webb or O'Malley REALLY want to make a splash, this is the time and TPP is the issue."

    But first, I don't know how many have noticed that Hillary has been answering the question (sort of) many of us have asked prior to her announcement. And, that is, will she tack center-right, center, or center-left? At least in these early days the answer appears to be center-left.

    Her issues: the middle class, upward mobility, minimum wage, and, even criticizing Wall St. for its unhelpful service in helping the country. Also, rumor has it that she will be making an announcement soon regarding promoting paid leave for workers who have family emergencies. She has also made comments about her desire to work with Elizabeth Warren about implementing some of the reforms Liz is promoting. And, last, but not least, she has stated that she would push for constitutional amendments regarding equal rights for women, and another for limiting campaign spending.

    So far, so good.

    The problem, from what I'm hearing, is that O'Malley intends to outflank her on the left.

    Stay tuned, should be interesting.

    Regarding TPP:

    The TPP is a really, really big deal. I've been studying it for weeks now, and to say its truly huge, extremely complicated, and potentially a true balance of power game changer would just be nipping at its heels.

    If you want to read a real good primer on the topic, and have the hair on your neck stand at attention, read:

    "The TPP: Toward Absolutist Capitalism"

    by  Lambert Strether

    I'll be back when I can talk, at least primitively, on this super important subject.

    Krugman: Thumbs down on TPP (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:40:23 PM EST
    in a speech to the National Association of Business Economists.  Krugman's slideshow can be downloaded here.

    Watching Ed yesterday (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 08:23:48 AM EST
    i thought the same thing.  One of these guys are definitely going to grab this issue.  Regardless of how they may or may not really feel about it.

    It's simply to hot to not cling to like Leonardo DiCaprio clinging to that board in the icy water.  

    Hillary will have to take a position.  And it's going to be hard to not either go against the president or a chunk of the left.  To extend the metaphor above, I don't think Hillary is exactly Kate Winslet.  Maybe closer to Kathy Bates in the lifeboat.

    Extendng the metshor to (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:22:12 AM EST
    make a gratuitous dig.

    Parent
    Allow me to explain it for you (3.00 / 2) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:38:48 AM EST
    in your "wisdom", which I'm really pretty tired of, you imagine that I am comparing Hillary to the great Kathy Bate because, what, she is older? Overweight?
    Allow me to provide you with a clue.  I love Kathy Bates.  Kathy Bates is a freakin goddess.  In my world comparing Hillary to Kathy Bates is a high compliment.
    You love your meaningless pot stirring drive by BS.
    I don't.  
    As an aside Bates was playing The Unsinkable Molly Brown.  If you don't get it that's your problem.


    Parent
    Instead of giving me a spineless 1 (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:46:26 AM EST
    why don't you explain what dig you were referring to.

    Parent
    I Agree... (none / 0) (#13)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 12:30:57 PM EST
    ...in that the people that aren't traditionally the Hollywood mold types who get great roles because they are premier actors.  It's funny about Kathy Bates, because that is one I always think of along with folks like Steve Buscemi and Peter Dinklage.

    To me breaking into Hollywood without have the glitterati appeal has to be a herculean task and I respect that immensely.

    Parent

    Excuse me? (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:26:28 AM EST
    Explain please (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:31:36 AM EST
    what "dig" are you referring too.

    Parent
    I'm reminded of the Ohio primary in 2008 (none / 0) (#14)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 12:36:42 PM EST
    The NAFTA fall-out issue loomed large. As for Hillary--at the time--she successfully focused on genuine concerns and issues in the forefront for the Unions ... even to marking a clear distance from the NAFTA sponsored and negotiated by Bill Clinton's administration.  Her emphasis then was on the unintended consequences whereby American jobs had been outsourced at an increasing rate, etc.

    I expect that Hillary will have positive statements about the TPP to the extent that the global interaction has been sought by international leaders for a number of years. In that sense, it moves in a positive direction ... diplomatically.  Yet--given the very real experience with NAFTA fall-out--I also expect that she will rightfully focus on ensuring that US labor protection provisions have some teeth and effect ... hopefully, a bit more than the Labor Secretary's general enforcement discretion phrasing.  Perhaps, she will find a way to interject a "reopener" approach of some sort .. that is, combine general diplomatic support with a re-opener provision or trigger provision "in the event that...," "if the xxx rate or average xxx surpasses (or falls below), then the signatories shall yyyy."  

    All's I'm saying: There are ways to express support for a/the concept/outline/framework while stating and staking out particular non-agreement area(s) that need to be strengthened.  Just a thought.

    Parent

    I think you are minimizing the effect (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 03:29:30 PM EST
    of TPP; it is, as more than one person has dubbed it, "NAFTA on steroids."  Not to mention that it now having "fast track" status means less oversight and involvement from the Congress - not a good sign.

    Consider this, from a Moyers and Company interview:

    Holland: Lori, what questions should people ask about the TPP that weren't asked about  NAFTA?

    Wallach: Number one question to your member of Congress should be, have you read the actual full text of the agreement? Do you know about the investment rules that promote job offshoring? Do you know about the rules that require us to import food that doesn't meet our safety standards? Do you know about the ban on buy American and buy local? If you don't know, if you haven't read those chapters--the investment chapter, the food chapter, the procurement chapter--then you cannot vote yes to approve this.

    Question number two: do you know this becomes binding US law limiting what Congress, states and local city councils can do as far as making domestic policy on all of these nontrade issues, and that not a word of this agreement can be changed unless all 12 countries agree? Do you understand that you are limiting the future of our democracy, indefinitely, on everything from internet freedom and our energy and climate policy to the prospect of having green jobs and an equitable economy? Do you understand that's what you're doing, i.e. throwing away your job as a Congressperson?

    And then the third question is: what single piece of evidence do you have that this trade agreement is actually going to create jobs here versus lose more US jobs and push down our wages? We now have free trade agreements with 17 countries. Show me a single one of those agreements in which we have gained jobs on net. Show me evidence from a single one of those agreements that the partner countries have reduced their poverty. Show me any of the past promises that are being repeated now by the same interests -- the same corporate think tanks, the same companies -- to push TPP which has come true.

    How about we ask Hillary Clinton to answer these questions?

    [oh, and christine - please don't ever use "All's" again; it's just wrong and grates terribly on my grammar-and-usage ears.  Thank you.]

    Parent

    Looking at the latest from AP (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:35:16 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton in New Hampshire said, today, that she has concerns about the TPP thus far ... in the short article I glanced at about an hour ago, Clinton highlighted a concern about effect on ensuring we continue to develop of manufacturing jobs in this country and provide training for said jobs.  So, no "all in" but also "not all against" -- focus from her is on the American manufacturing jobs, specifically.

    Anne: 'Didn't mean to offend with my playful "all's" ... I'll cease & desist on that one.  May I ask that, in future, the overuse of what seems to be the dramatic "for the love of <insert name of deity or Mary>" or the periodic reference to the urge to regurgitate one's food could be toned down in courteous return.  As you indicated, my affectation above annoyed you; and, there are certain affectations that annoy me also.  I appreciate it.

    Parent

    Here's the thing, christine: it's not just (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Anne on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 05:15:04 PM EST
    about jobs; in fact, I'd offer that the jobs aspect of TPP is the least of the concerns anyone should have about it.  So, I'm sorry, but I don't accept Hillary's very generic non-position on this.

    From Public Citizen:

    More Job Offshoring, More Income Inequality

    The TPP would incentivize offshoring American jobs to low-wage countries, and would also exacerbate U.S. income inequality.

    Undermining Food Safety

    The TPP would require us to import meat and poultry that does not meet U.S. safety standards. It would impose limits on food labeling.

    Threats to Public Health

    U.S. negotiators are pushing the agenda of Big Pharma - expanding firms' monopoly protections for drugs. The TPP would restrict access to life-saving medicines for millions in developing nations, while undermining efforts to contain U.S. medicine costs.

    Financial Deregulation: Banksters' Delight

    The TPP would undermine the re-regulation of Wall Street. It would prohibit bans on risky financial products and services and undermine "too big to fail" regulations.

    Son of SOPA: Curtailing Internet Freedom

    Thought SOPA was bad? The TPP would require internet service providers to "police" user-activity and treat individual violators as large-scale for-profit violators. Plus, the TPP would stifle innovation.

    Bye Buy American & Jobs

    The TPP would impose limits on how our elected officials can use tax dollars - banning Buy American or Buy Local preferences and offshoring our tax dollars to create jobs abroad.

    More Power to Corporations to Attack Nations

    Foreign corporations would be empowered to attack our health, environmental and other laws before foreign tribunals on the mere basis that their expectations were frustrated, and to demand taxpayer compensation for expected future profits.

    Now, maybe it works for you to close your eyes to these things, and just accept whatever generic answers Hillary Clinton offers, but it doesn't work for me.  If she's in favor of it - and I do expect she is - she should have to own that, don't you think?

    What I notice is that, in spite of there being provided some details on what "NAFTA on Steroids" means, you don't seem to have an opinion about it, haven't said whether you think these components of the pact are acceptable and are things you can support.  I'm left with the icky feeling that you're going to take your cue from whatever Hillary says, and find a way to justify that in a way that avoids having to deal with the realities of the TPP.

    You're always so interested in where others stand, what they do and don't support, so how about going on the record and telling us your position on the TPP?

    Parent

    Anne, you may be surprised, but (none / 0) (#35)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 06:13:43 PM EST
    I agree about a number of concerns that you raised and cited from Public Citizen.  For me--whether it is NAFTA or this proposed agreement--my principal concern has been the effect on American jobs.  

    My position is in flux ... but, decidedly, one of concern.  I want to hear more.  As BTD noted briefly upthread, he usually starts from a pro-free market position, BUT....  That is where I am on this one.  And, FYI, it was my concern with the smaller NAFTA situation.

    Parent

    Agree with Anne (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by sj on Fri Apr 24, 2015 at 11:27:06 AM EST
    I think it would be very appropriate for you to be explicit in your writings regarding the provisions of TTP. It's good to have background information on commenters so that one knows how to weigh their opinions and statements and thereby understand their agenda.

    Parent
    Yes ... My principal concern (none / 0) (#49)
    by christinep on Fri Apr 24, 2015 at 09:20:03 PM EST
    concerns the enforceability of provisions respecting effect on jobs.  Although there have been assurances from the President that the provisions are noticeably improved from the earlier NAFTA, I do want to read the enforcement provisions. Apparently, similar enforcement provisions have been added on environmental issues.

    I am not so concerned about unsubstantiated allegations about the possible effect on American regulatory and other requirements; nor does the matter of alleged "secretiveness" trouble me in view of the fact that the language is there for review by Congress and, for those parts already agreed to, available for broad review. Per the President: There will be a good three-month review period.  That is how agreements/settlements/major documents are typically drafted.

    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#50)
    by sj on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 03:50:11 PM EST
    I am not so concerned about unsubstantiated allegations about the possible effect on American regulatory and other requirements;
    Good to know that you're not troubled by it. Which, IMO, makes your comments regarding TPP of lesser weight than someone who who has done more research than you have.

    After all, much of the reason you can refer to "unsubstantiated allegations" is because the meetings and briefings and the draft text have been classified.

    And don't wishy wash out of it by saying oh, that's just the draft text. You know as well as I do that when the text has been "finalized" it will -- if it all goes according to WH plan -- be fast-tracked so quickly the no one will have had time to analyze if they are viewing it for the first time.

    Parent

    Oops (none / 0) (#51)
    by sj on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 03:53:54 PM EST
    Forgot the link substantiating the "alleged secrecy" -- unless you don't consider a classified document to be secret.

    Parent
    I feel better about this link (none / 0) (#52)
    by sj on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 04:25:21 PM EST
    It's not an opinion or even analysis. It is the text of a letter sent by Senators Warren and Brown requesting the declassification of the TPP.

    Parent
    I read the letter. (none / 0) (#53)
    by christinep on Mon Apr 27, 2015 at 07:25:43 PM EST
    When did you read it? (none / 0) (#54)
    by sj on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 07:07:57 PM EST
    And to what effect? Does its classified status allow you to stubbornly maintain your "unsubstantiated allegations" posture as a way to turn a blind eye to the analysis of others?

    Or are you actually concerned about the fact that document -- critical to the economic and (dare I say it) spiritual health of multiple nations -- is classified?

    Parent

    Sorry if I was unclear (none / 0) (#55)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 07:55:08 PM EST
    I read the request/letter from the named Senators requesting declassification.  Personally, I hope that declassification occurs as soon as practicable...even as I appreciate the delicacy of multiple nations negotiations initially. Perhaps, unlike your indicated inclination, my expectation that there will be sufficient time for meaningful Congressional review.

    Each of us brings certain expectations and experiences in matters of negotiation.  I respect your starting point.  And, indeed, mine is more trusting of the President's approach at the outset ... especially considering the example of the Iran process to date and the rather good enforcement & monitoring & reporting provisions.

     So, even tho--as I have expressed--I'm not naïve about the potential for a repetition of negative effects on American jobs, I personally am prepared not to presume negative conclusions without more.  I think this because a comprehensive agreement in the Pacific sphere is a major breakthrough on a number of levels ... and, in a world that grows closer as well as in a global context, a multiple-nation agreement about economic trade that lessens suspicions and tensions COULD be a good end. It is worth pursuing IF the pitfalls of earlier agreements can be precluded ...President Obama has directly stated that the downside will be avoided.  I choose to accept that ... for now.

    Parent

    CountI (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by FlJoe on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 09:18:46 PM EST
    me in you I won't get fooled again crowd. Despite the promises, good intentions and all the "safeguards" you could ask for, the only sure winner will be the giant international corporations, they are even getting a virtual get out of jail free card out of it.

    From my meager knowledge I am not opposed to free trade, in theory at least. Bill Clinton had me sold on NAFTA, damn him. Meanwhile in the real world somehow all the promised benefits(well paying American jobs!) somehow never materialize as the giant international mega-corps hoover up the cash.

    The TPP is a sure bet for the growing world-wide oligarchy, for the rest of us the dice are loaded.

    Viva Bernie !

    Parent

    OTOH I was never sold on NAFTA (none / 0) (#57)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 28, 2015 at 10:31:56 PM EST
    Because it was staring us in the face that more thought needed to be given into phasing, transition, and the all-around  question about effects on American jobs.  I would also point out that a lot of unanswered questions remained about environmental enforcement <in those instances where large American companies would operate south of the border with potentially little constraint on emissions effecting the US."<p> As for the matter of environmental enforcement, particularly, circumstances in the fall of 1992 allowed me to witness an exchange at a Democratic cocktail party whereby the then Presidential nominee Clinton was interviewed by a Rolling Stone journalist about NAFTA and the environment.
    Standing with my husband next to the two, I listened (and even ventured a question, and got an answer, about a copper smelter south of Arizona and it's potential tall stack emissions.) What I heard seemed to be an energetic commitment to make the concept work; what I also remember thinking was that the energy and good intentions left some gaps.  But then, that is a personal memory.  For some reason--namely because so many of those initially enamored of broadening global trade in the 1990s have learned/have been educated by experience about the expected drawbacks, I actually have more confidence going into this newer agreement than in the NAFTA situation.

    Broad international agreements tend to benefit the economy of the participating countries in the macro sense. Yes, usually, international agreements overly benefit those at the top. But, that isn't to say the benefits cannot be usefully disbursed if we know that tendency going in, and systematically include provisos and approaches to expand the benefits realized by expanded trade.  To do otherwise is really to trap ourselves ... rather than fear the new, doesn't it make more sense to confront expected problems, rectify them, adjust, and move forward?

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by FlJoe on Wed Apr 29, 2015 at 05:54:10 AM EST
    Yes, usually, international agreements overly benefit those at the top.
    , the game is rigged. Why on Earth do those at the top need another advantage?

    Parent
    More "job training"? (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by sj on Fri Apr 24, 2015 at 11:22:18 AM EST
    That's like the default response these days.

    Parent
    Very political (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:37:21 PM EST
    but probably ultimately not good enough.

    Parent
    Agree. There will be more to come. (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by christinep on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:44:58 PM EST
    Paraphrasing from BTD sometime back: Politicians do what politicians do.  (And, everyone--absolutely everyone--who runs for President is, by definition, a politician.)

    Parent
    If ever (none / 0) (#19)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:29:38 PM EST
    there was a law written by the 1%, and, for the benefit of only the 1%, this is it.
    I just happened to read this very unique, almost comical, example of what would be possible under this trade agreement.

    Let's say there a parcel of land in, oh, South Dakota that's zoned for commercial use.
    And, there's a developer from Germany who owns that four block parcel, and wants to build apartments on it. But, you own a building within that parcel that's been designated untouchable as it enjoys heritage exemption protection. So, he has to build around your building, but, guess what? That German developer, under the proposed TPP Agreement, is entitled to not only build apartments on his property, he is also guaranteed the profits from that development.

    So, what does that have to do with you? You're safe in your home there, he's not entitled to it. But, he is entitled, guaranteed, to enjoy the profits from the whole parcel. So, while you don't have to surrender your home to him, you do have to pay him the profits he would have gotten had he received your house, torn it down, and built a new house on the site.

    Outrageous, but absolutely true. And, you have no appeal, period. And, that's why they call this TPP, "Absolutist Capitalism."


    Parent

    Oh, and by the way, (none / 0) (#20)
    by NYShooter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:31:30 PM EST
    The "vacuuming" I was referring to the other day was vacuuming leaves from the gutters.

    So, kill me, I left out a word.

    Parent

    I have read several (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 04:35:55 PM EST
    equally nightmarish stories TTP would cause,  putting aside the fact that these are almost certainly pure speculation since no one actually knows what is in it yet, if even a small part of it is true it seems like pretty low hanging fruit for Hillary to at least sound cautious on this subject.

    Her stance might be quite telling about not only the actual contents of the deal but his secure she feels politically.

    Parent

    It's very easy to end up ... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 05:44:53 PM EST
    on the wrong end of the triangle when playing to the left on trade deals.

    It would probably work best if it's tied to a general labor/banking/equality message.

    The key when running against a Clinton effectively is you have to out common sense them.

    This is what Obama did so well.  It also helps if you have serious establishment support, but no thinks you do.  Obama also had that.

    And that's what's required here.  You have to look like the bigger grown-up. And that's tricky to do when positing an anti-trade deal message.

    Trade deals always seem very grown-up.

    Hillary is still vulnerable.  TPTB don't like her, because she has a genuine power base. And has proven that she will use it.  She has to make them think she'll play ball on important issues.  And only use her power to protect herself politically.  Not venture into new areas.

    Backing trade deals will be one way to show she's prepared to do that.  So, in the long run, Hillary wins in the trade deal debate.  The anti-trade stuff can be good red meat.  But won't significantly move the needle.  Unless you've got a real master nuancing that message.  Neither O'Malley or Webb are masters.


    There is sort of a debate (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 06:05:12 PM EST
    on this issue, including Obama, on Hardball right now.

    "Sort of" (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 06:18:36 PM EST
    and so far appears to be a debate with no opponents if the deal.

    Maybe wrong.  Doing other stuff.

    Parent

    Schumer (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 07:07:46 PM EST
    supposed to make the case against tomorrow.  

    Parent
    That's ludicrious ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 07:37:03 PM EST
    the Senator from Wall Street.

    It must just be for the camera time.

    Because, as they say, the most dangerous place to be in Washington is between Chuck Schumer and a camera.

    Parent

    It's weird (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 07:50:09 PM EST
    i watched the show and can't say I know any more than I did.  Big surprise there.  But I am curious what Schumer says.  He apparently is staunchly against it.  What, for example, Reid said was basically 'I don't support this deal because I've never supported a trade deal'
    Ok.
    Honestly I would like to hear a more thoughtful answer than that.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 07:55:26 PM EST
    all I have to say is that might be the first time I will watch Hardball in probably a decade or more. Schumer being against it certainly is interesting.

    All I have to say is that maybe he will be more informative. You never know with him.

    Parent

    Some sources: (none / 0) (#42)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:47:32 PM EST
    NYT: Trans-Pacific Partnership Seen as Door for Foreign Suits Against U.S.

    "One 1999 case gives ammunition to both sides of the debate. Back then, California banned the chemical MTBE from the state's gasoline, citing the damage it was doing to its water supply. The Canadian company Methanex Corporation sued for $970 million under Nafta, claiming damages on future profits. The case stretched to 2005, when the tribunal finally dismissed all claims."

    Wikileaks: The Smoking Gun referenced in the preceding NYT piece.

    NYT: Deal Reached on Fast-Track Authority for Obama on Trade Accord

    Public Citizen's (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 09:54:56 PM EST
    Obama on Chris Matthews' Softball: (none / 0) (#44)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Apr 21, 2015 at 10:22:03 PM EST
    Again, my source is the New York Times, which was outed earlier today, here, as a tool of the Koch Brothers and their multiple Mercantilist minions.

    Deal on Trade Pact Gives Obama Authority but Builds In a Delay

    Mr. Obama did his best to brush back opposition in his party from the liberal wing now associated with Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat of Massachusetts.

    "I love Elizabeth," Mr. Obama told Mr. Matthews during the interview. "We're allies on a whole host of issues. But she's wrong on this."

    Warren's against it.  Orrin Hatch is for it.  That says it all.