home

Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:40:00 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

ISIS has taken over the Yarmuk Palestinian refugee camp in Damascus, Syria. They battled rebel group Aknaf Bait al-Maqdi.

Al Nusra is now in control of Idlib. Will they rule with as heavy a hand and sword as ISIS? Al Nusra fights along with rebel groups, but it is not a rebel group. It's an Al Qaida affiliate, equally as desirous as ISIS of implementing a Caliphate (just not al Baghdadi) and its version of Sharia law.

Not everyone agrees that Iraq has retaken Tikrit. ISIS has imposed a blackout on Twitter among its supporters so as not to disclose the location of its fighters. They still hold some critical parts of Tikrit.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Rolling Stones to Tour U.S. This Summer | Two Queens Women Charged With Planning to Bomb Something Someday >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Thursday Open Thread | 208 comments (208 topical)
    One less... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:46:23 AM EST
    raving font of misplaced rage with a badge and gun in NYC, untold thousands to go.  

    Get crackin' Bratton, it's spring and time for a thorough spring cleaning...long overdue.

    In "1984" (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:39:46 PM EST
    ...George Orwell envisioned government video monitors on every corner.  In England, that has arrived.

    What Orwell could not imagine was video technology in a pocket of every shirt.

    Every.  Shirt.

    And purse, and car dash.  In even the poorest neighborhoods.

    Now citizens are equally armed, and have the means to distribute video worldwide, instantly.  And what it has revealed is a lot of police brutality that would not have caused a ripple in the space/time fabric before YouTube.

    Orwell's revenge.

    Parent

    You know what else video technology can reveal? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:52:38 PM EST
    Baby horned owls, showing up in the darnedest places.

    Parent
    There was a wise old owl (none / 0) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:35:32 PM EST
    Who lived in an oak
    The more he saw
    The less he spoke

    Why can't we all be like that wise old bird?

    That was on a small poster in a small general store near where I lived as a child.

    Later, as an adult, I found out that the owners were not married but lived as man and wife.

    Yet they were accepted in this small southern town.

    Parent

    A couple of women (none / 0) (#152)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:23:45 PM EST
    Lived together on my very street while I was growing up.  They were accepted as members of the neighborhood, even though they were not married either.

    What's your point?

    Parent

    That we should all be like that wise old owl, ... (none / 0) (#165)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:47:20 PM EST
    ... and learn how to swallow mice whole.

    Parent
    and on the other side of the equation (none / 0) (#7)
    by CST on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 09:30:12 AM EST
    Another reason cops should always have the cameras running.  Link

    Really it's a no brainer and it protects everyone involved.  An I think this seems like a good way forward to keep it from being abused.

    Parent

    As someone... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 09:42:31 AM EST
    long down on cameras everywhere and the associated surveillance state/privacy/self-censorship concerns, I've come around on the issue of cameras as it relates to police misconduct.  

    I mean if you're gonna be on candid camera all day every day anyway, it really is a no brainer to record all interactions between police and the public.  There will be unintended negative consequences I'm sure, but the upside is obvious.

    Parent

    I doubt (none / 0) (#51)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:28:05 PM EST
    detectives in plainclothes will be wearing body cameras.

    Parent
    Anybody else... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 10:17:27 AM EST
    catch the segment on Vice about the burgeoning surrogate industry in India?  

    Heartbreaking stuff...those poor women with no options, and the exploiters foreign and domestic all to happy to take advantage.  Very sad and creepy.

    Not saying it should be banned or anything, but India needs to regulate this "industry" in order to protect the women from getting ripped off, and their health.  Sh*t is f*cked up.

    Sitting in a new cube, There is someone (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 10:40:59 AM EST
    talking next door that sounds just like Robert Durst. Freaking me out a little, but sending me imagining Robert Durst in all of my meetings. He'd actually fit right in around here.

    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:12:21 PM EST
    letting him know you are on to him would be unwise.

    Parent
    LOL. If he says 'that's it - I did it' and burps.. (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:36:32 PM EST
    I am sooo out of here.

    Parent
    Well it could be Robert Durst (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:18:59 PM EST
    or it could be Harvey Fierstein.  

    Parent
    Obama announces Iran nuke deal (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 01:44:55 PM EST
    He says there will be extensive and intrusive inspections....

    Sounds like a much more (none / 0) (#22)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 01:56:25 PM EST
    detailed agreement with a lot of inspections, etc. than has been previously described.

    John Kerry is announcing some of the details....  

    Parent

    For an Accord or Framework ... (none / 0) (#23)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:11:39 PM EST
    it does appear to contain significant details.  Good details in terms of access, inspections, monitoring of all potential component operations.  Good details in terms of very substantial centrifuges & supporting facilities and in the requirement for exporting spent fuel.

    Listening to the first descriptions, I think that the use of what appears to be the classic "condition subsequent" approach to address the what-if-noncompliance-&-future-cheating question.  That is, my understanding is that in the event of noncompliance with any agreement, said fact would automate a "snap back" (often called a "trigger" in enforcement-ese) so that the US and other world powers would reinstitute whatever sanctions & plans needed to address the noncooperation at that point.  Pragmatic, and doable ... especially in view of the transparency grafted onto the framework.

    I heartily recommended watching whatever clips of the President's compelling description are available.  I happened to watch live on streaming YouTube from the Washington Post.

    If this works, ultimately, it truly is a breakthrough on multiple positive levels.  It is a step--actually, several steps now--and, very strong steps.

    Parent

    please read in first paragraph, the words (none / 0) (#25)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:15:03 PM EST
    after "substantial" include "reductions in"

    Parent
    Sounds good... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:37:19 PM EST
    for everybody except GOP congress-critters, Israeli hardliners, ISIS, and Saudi royals.

    Let's hope it carries over to more cooperation and normalized relations with Iran.  A fresh start after we f8cked everything up with the CIA backed coup in 1953 at the behest of British Petroleum.

    Side bonus...oil prices went down with the announcement.  "Sell Mortimer Sell!!! Dear god they're making peace...SELL!!!!" ;)

    Parent

    Fortunately for the country, ... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:42:45 PM EST
    ... many of them have been distracted by their own "religious freedom" agenda, which hasn't quite turned out like they thought it would.

    Parent
    you can't make an omelette . . . (none / 0) (#64)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:44:21 PM EST
    without making sure your eggs are fresh

    while reading about the French take on the accord-cadre announced from Lausanne, i happened across this test for freshness

  • fill a large bowl with cold water

  • gently place the egg in the water

  • if the egg sinks right to the bottom of the bowl, it's perfectly fresh

  • if the egg hovers between the surface of the water and the bottom of the bowl, eat it soon, but only in solid form (boiled, scrambled, or as an omelette)

  • if the egg floats, toss it

    • thus one implication of the old adage is that those eggs broken in service to some useful outcome must be eggs that have already gone half bad

    Parent

    In this world, tho ... (none / 0) (#65)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:52:29 PM EST
    there are many good dishes--even transformative celebrations--that do not call for eggs.

    I'm somewhat uncertain as to the metaphor here.  For myself, I really cannot take too many eggs ... sulphuric result.  There are so many other ways to satisfy as well as further a diet.  Even exceptional concoctions.

    Parent

    me too (none / 0) (#75)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 07:47:50 PM EST
    I'm somewhat uncertain as to the metaphor here.

    let's call it scrambled

    Parent

    Still (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:55:36 PM EST
    the best way to know they are fresh is to personally take them out of the coop.
    :)
    Since I've been way to chatty in this thread I'm am going to consolidate-

    If you didn't see it, try catching the rebroadcast of the Justin Bieber Roast on Comedy Central.  It was very very funny.

    Also I just heard the weather.  They are predicting tennis ball sized hail for the area.  I rewound just to make sure I hear that right.  That should wake me up so at least I don't die in my sleep.

    Parent

    One of the ghastliest odors known to man ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 06:21:36 PM EST
    CaptHowdy: "[T]he best way to know [eggs] are fresh is to personally take them out of the coop."

    ... is that which wafts leisurely downwind from an industrial-sized egg farm.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 06:33:17 PM EST
    Wouldn't know about that my sister has about ten chickens and they don't really smell much at all.  

    Parent
    Fun DfmHI fact: Back in early '88, ... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:27:42 PM EST
    ... we lived about one block from Peterson's Upland Farm in Wahiawa (Central Oahu), which has about 12,000 chickens in its barns producing up to 8,000 eggs daily. Once our lease was up, we were out of there, the stench was that overpowering when the trade winds were blowing. While I can laugh about it now, it wasn't so funny back then.

    Parent
    I have been trying (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by sj on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:31:45 PM EST
    to read about the TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement) and having a really hard time doing so:

    How have we come to this pass that we view it as legitimate for American businesses to demand that the American public ought to ensure them against the business risks they take abroad? When did it become acceptable to insulate large multinational corporations against the hazards of their folly?

    The Trans Pacific Partnership -- a cornerstone of Mr. Obama's remaining economic agenda -- would grant broad powers to multinational companies operating in North America, South America and Asia. Under the accord, still under negotiation but nearing completion, companies and investors would be empowered to challenge regulations, rules, government actions and court rulings -- federal, state or local -- before tribunals organized under the World Bank or the United Nations.

    The TPP provides for three-judge "courts" to conduct the dispute settlement proceeding. One of the judges is actually selected by the corporate plaintiffs. All of the judges are private attorneys who in other disputes may have represented corporate plaintiffs, and it is common for attorneys to be shifting roles from "corporate advocates" in one case to "judges" in another. Of course, the advocates get paid far more than the judges.

    Reading about it makes me feel like I'm hyperventilating and that my shoulders are right under my ears. I have to stop reading. As Pro-Union as I am, that is only one aspect. So I go from the top of that lengthy analysis to the bottom:

    All of which brings me to one final issue. Is there anything in the TPP that would compromise the monetary sovereignty of the United States and subject us to the influence of the bond vigilantes in the international credit markets, now subordinate to the policies of the Federal Reserve and the Treasury in collaboration?

    I think there is. Specifically, I don't see anything in the TPP investment chapter requiring that damages be awarded in the sovereign currency of nations incurring damage awards for lost profits, but only that they be awarded in a "freely usable currency" as specified by the IMF. That means, that [corporate] complainants in these tribunals could ask for damages to be payable in foreign currencies, which the US would then owe in that currency.

    Right now the US fuflfills the three essential conditions for monetary sovereignty: 1) it issues its own non-convertible currency, 2) which it allows to float on international currency markets; and 3) it owes no debts in any currency other than dollars.

    So, it flows from these considerations, that passing the TPP would create the conditions for ending US monetary sovereignty for the first time since the international gold window was closed in 1971.


    Okay, I'm diving in again, working my way through the middle.
    Bernie Sanders (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Zorba on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:13:24 PM EST
    has backed Jesus "Chuy" Garcia in his race against incumbent Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel.

    Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders says America needs a "political revolution" to change the debate about economic inequality and he sees evidence of the upheaval in Chicago. So the senator is wading into that city's mayoral race as a backer of Jesus "Chuy" Garcia, the labor-backed progressive who is mounting a spirited challenge to incumbent Rahm Emanuel.

    Sanders, an independent who caucuses with Senate Democrats, has been exploring a possible 2016 presidential candidacy as a progressive-populist challenger to the Democratic establishment. And he argues that Garcia is forging the sort of "working-class coalition" that is needed to shake up politics in urban America and beyond.

    TheNation

    I love Bernie!

    You may love Bernie (none / 0) (#82)
    by CoralGables on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 10:01:42 PM EST
    but he's backing a horse that is going to get stomped next Tuesday.

    Parent
    So is that why one should (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by sj on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:08:52 AM EST
    vote (or support) the way one does? So that one can say they backed a winner?

    Chances of success at a single venture shouldn't be the determining factor of one's actions. Bragging rights wouldn't have gotten us the 8 hour work day or women's sufferance or any other move forward.

    Parent

    This just in (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:17:18 PM EST

    (AP). Hillary Clinton's choice to run her 2016 Presidential bid is already running into resistance from some Democratic insiders.

    Matt Murdock, prominent defense attorney and noted disability rights activist, is on the inside track, according to sources in the campaign, but is running into resistance from Wall Street interests who still remember his involvement in the Occupy Wall Street movement a few years ago, and have revived rumors of his alleged ties to the acrobatic vigilante Daredevil.

    Mr. Murdocks' office issued the following statement when contacted by this reporter.

    "It is certainly revealing that some insiders seem to think that only The Man Without Fear could help Hillary Clinton to victory in 2016."
    I'm amused by the pizza (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:49:49 PM EST
    ...take-out place saying they wouldn't deliver to a gay wedding.

    I think the food at a gay wedding would be a little more fabulous than take-out pizza.

    That was pretty funny (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:59:44 PM EST
    pretty clear that person does not know any gay people.

    On th other hand it was great because she made absolutely clear the intent of the pig they so furiously trying to put lipstick on.

    Parent

    Mmmmm.... (none / 0) (#91)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:47:59 AM EST
    I've been to plenty of weddings that had beautiful sit-down dinners, and then around midnight, pizza was brought out as the bar shut down.

    Parent
    My cousin... (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:50:18 AM EST
    had one of those brick-oven pizza food trucks parked outside when his wedding reception ended...brilliant idea, especially for my extended family of stoners, we munched out hardcore after all the partying.

    The pizza joint in question has gotten 150 grand in handouts from haternation since they announced "gays need not order a pie"...it's the new get rich quick scheme for the 21st century, hate on gays or kill an unarmed black kid and just wait for the donations to pour in online.  Sh*t if I had no conscience, I might get in on the action.

    Parent

    Thanks for the memories, say (none / 0) (#95)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:02:00 AM EST
    the wingers.  Memories Pizza, home of that mouth-watering pizza that is to say out of the mouths of those at gay weddings, is now at $500,000 and counting.  

    Parent
    So, do you think hetero couples (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:46:56 AM EST
    will be asked questions like, "is this a first marriage for each of you?"  "If not, did the first marriage end by divorce?"  "Was adultery a factor?"  "If this is a first marriage, are you both virgins?"  "Are you living together?"  "Have any children been born of this relationship?"

    As I understand it from some nitwit I saw online somewhere, no.  That's a "different kind of sin."

    Parent

    Time for Black Ops??? (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:09:50 AM EST
    How 'bout we go partners KD...think of something vile and hateful to do, watch the donations pile in, and then donate the booty to charities and non-profits that make haternation see red.

    We can even skim a lil off the top! ;)

    Parent

    I'm in. (none / 0) (#100)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:44:44 AM EST
    We already have our name (KDx2), we just need a menace. Commies are old hat; gays are waning; Obama will soon join Jimmy Carter building homes, and Fred Phelps is no longer with us.   Religion does have a long and profitable history and may serve to model a  business plan.   We just need to do more research on up and coming hate so as to get ahead of the grifters curve.  

    Parent
    Just Change the name (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 01:43:20 PM EST
    to Fund A Christian Bigot and be against everyone except white male fundamentalist Christians. Throw in how you are being victimized. That should cover it all and help you reap a cool million or so.


    Parent
    Will need to check (none / 0) (#130)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:55:29 PM EST
    with the Chairman, but there is room for you in this inequity venture.   Also, let's tap Reconstructionist for tax advice--I like the way he thinks, gifts/no taxes.    Up for a name change, but how about "Bigotry is Us"?   Not too original, but descriptive.

    Parent
    For a menace (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:08:35 PM EST
    i suggest gay elderly atheists.   I will be the poster boy for a cut.

    Menace plan B - lawyers.  (jk)

    Parent

    Hope they are good enough Christians (none / 0) (#101)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:59:54 AM EST
    To be home next and claim all that money on their taxes next year.

    Parent
    Ack! (none / 0) (#102)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:02:00 AM EST
    Autocorrect!  Hope they are honest enough to claim all that income on their taxes next year.

    Parent
    Please... (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:12:32 PM EST
    What Caesar don't know won't hurt him!

    Sh#t...their church will be lucky to see their 10%...greed is not a sin like same-sex love is a sin. Misdemeanor v Felony;)

    Parent

    In this case (none / 0) (#112)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:13:30 PM EST
    I hope Caesar knows all!

    Parent
    They could always borrow... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:17:24 PM EST
    from their sister superstition's playbook, Scientology, and keep suing Caesar till he cries Uncle.

    Parent
    Tax free (none / 0) (#119)
    by Reconstructionist on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 01:23:16 PM EST
     The donations are fairly categorized as gifts. To the extent gifts are taxable, the tax falls on the giver. The exclusions  are high enough though that there is often no tax due:

    You may receive up to $14,000 each year from any one person as a tax-free gift. If you receive more than $14,000, the giver must file a gift tax return (IRS Form 709, U.S. Gift Tax Return).  The IRS gift tax exclusion amount changes annually; check the IRS website for current rates.


      Even if the donations were categorized as equity investments in a business rather than gifts to the family (which I doubt
     that's not income subject to taxation.

    Parent

    I suspect that little fundraiser (none / 0) (#134)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:09:13 PM EST
    was a little more organized than just the spontaneous grassroots "show of support" implied by some of the media..

    That case warrants a little closer scrutiny..

    Parent

    The Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 06:30:47 AM EST
    are expected to try to sabotage the nascent deal with Iran.

    Normally, I would expect them to succeed. These ogres have had an abominably successful record of tripping up the president in virtually all the endeavors in which I am interested.

    However- there's good news!

    The Saudi King is for the deal.

    In a phone call with Obama on Thursday, Salman "expressed his hope that a final binding deal would be reached to reinforce the stability and security of the region and the world," the SPA news agency said.

    I can't imagine the Republicans going against our best friend, our pal, our buddy, the King.

    Obama, sure.
    The KIng - no way.

    well, seriously (none / 0) (#127)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:27:04 PM EST
    who wouldn't "hope that a final binding deal would be reached to reinforce the stability and security of the region and the world"?

    but you left out this part:

    Saudi Arabia fears that if too much of Iran's nuclear programme is left intact it will still have the ability to obtain an atomic bomb, and there are concerns that Riyadh could seek its own nuclear capability.

    The kingdom's former intelligence chief, Prince Turki al-Faisal, warned last month that "whatever comes out of these talks, we will want the same," specifically uranium enrichment capability.

    If an agreement is seen as too weak, Saudi Arabia will try to find a way to counter-balance it, a Western diplomat said.

    "They will certainly seek a way of balancing what would be seen as an advantage on the Iranian side," said the diplomat, asking for anonymity.

    Saudi Arabia would first ask for "security assurances" from the United States and other major powers that negotiated with Iran.

    If that did not work, the kingdom could seek its own deal with nuclear-armed Pakistan, a longtime ally of Riyadh, the diplomat said.

    so how have we reached the point where it's accurate to say that "the Saudi King is for the deal," particularly since all we really have is a "framework agreement" for reaching some kind of deal by June 30? sounds to me like the king is reminding President Obama of a previously issued warning, not cheering for "the deal" (sic)

    Parent

    Meanwhile , Saudis funnel money (none / 0) (#128)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:48:23 PM EST
    and resources to ISIS..

    That ugly reality and the fact that the Saudis embrace and promulgate cruel, medieval Wahhabism is enough to make one wonder who in fact are the real enemies of long term "stability".

    Parent

    you really think it's so black & white? (none / 0) (#132)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:07:04 PM EST
    anyway, you forgot the Saudi ties of the 9/11 hijackers

    Parent
    A moment of silence please (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:00:48 PM EST
    i was looking for a link to this which made me laugh out loud .

    And I learn that THE HAIR IS DEAD.

    Apparently after making that new promo.  I'm not saying it was aliens but clearly he knew too much.

    BAHAHA (none / 0) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:04:00 PM EST
    Tsoukalos was pronounced dead at 2:42 a.m. GST. Cause of death was listed as "Multiple grievous wounds," He was 34.

    No foul play was suspected in his death. Tsoukalos is survived by seven ex-wives and twelve children.



    Parent
    Hahahahahaha! (none / 0) (#126)
    by Zorba on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:24:21 PM EST
    BTW, for those who don't read Greek, his "Ancient Annunaki name," `Γεώργιος Α. Τσούκαλος,' is just Giorgio Tsoukalos written in Greek.  Which makes it even funnier.   ;-)

    Parent
    RIP, Sarah Brady (1941-2015). (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:36:04 PM EST
    The noted gun control advocate and widow of former White House press secretary James Brady died today from pneumonia in Alexandria, VA at age 73.

    A law that seeks to privilege (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:04:22 AM EST
    Religious belief over those who don't share that belief is what this law and Sharia law are all about, Jim.  That you can't see that doesn't mean it's not there.

    While we strain at gnats (3.50 / 2) (#20)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 01:52:34 PM EST
    about religious discrimination over wedding cakes and flowers in Indiana, this is really where it is in spades:

    Up to 150 killed in Kenyan university massacre following al-Shabaab Easter Week raid: Terrorists `behead' Christian students in worst attack in country in 17 years

    That is quite a low bar (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by MKS on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 01:55:02 PM EST
    If we do not kill gays and lesbian, then it is no big deal.

    There are a lot of gay and lesbian kids who will tell you about the hell their "Christian" friends have put them through.

    Parent

    Good Night, Iran. (none / 0) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:12:25 PM EST
    Senator Tom Cotton, pen pal of the Ayatollahs, has again brought his charming Iran-infused insights on the world to the Indiana/Arkansas "religious liberty" discussion. Tom instructs that  "it's important that we have a sense of perspective."   .."In Iran they hang you for the crime of being gay."  

    Parent
    Perspective is important (none / 0) (#27)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:24:12 PM EST
    What is being proposed in the good old U.S.A.:

    A lawyer in California has proposed that being gay be a capital crime and that citizens be allowed to kill gay people if the state does not put them to death. The lawyer, Matt McLaughlin of Huntington Beach, will likely soon be allowed to start gathering signatures to put his proposal on the ballot.

    While I don't anticipate this initiative will get  on the ballot and become law, there are certain elements here in the U.S. who are not against Iran's approach.

    Wonder how many signatures he will get.

    Parent

    Yes, gays need to (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:35:50 PM EST
    count their blessings.  McLaughlin's solution is for "a bullet to the head..." But, actually, he is not all that rigid--it can be a bullet to the head or any other convenient method."  The California Attorney General is taking this to the CA Supreme Court, but many say that her hands are tied--her job is ministerial not discretionary.   However, this proposal to murder does seem a little drastic, at least more so than the Indiana remedy for baking for gays.   I wonder, too, about the signature, including if they will be made public.   Cotton/Pence 2016.  The anti-Iranian/anti-gay dream ticket.

    Parent
    If Calif. AG Kamala Harris has her way, ... (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:58:00 PM EST
    ... none. She's petitioned the state courts for permission to quash the hatemongering initiative petition as unconstitutional, which would prevent its public circulation.

    Parent
    Gee, I was thinking (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:22:51 PM EST
    of getting signatures for a proposition to disbar virulently anti-gay lawyers.  But, then, I would have to move to California and become a resident and voter--but I do get thirsty from time to time.  Not a place for me--or Marco Rubio.

    Parent
    It's going to be very interesting (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:38:57 PM EST
    to see how this and other gay issues play in '16.  Republican are between the proverbial rock and hard place.  The truth is the base wants this.  They love this.  That's why Cruz is the only "candidate" not cautiously backpeddaling on this issue.   He, of course, still thinks it was the right thing to do.  
    It will be interesting to see how much of the republican base agrees with him.

    I'm thinkin a lot of it.

    And let's not forget the SC marriage decision coming this summer.  You think they are just going to shrug and say ok let's move on?  I don't think so.  

    Parent

    I'm with you (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 06:29:04 PM EST
    The base loves this stuff. The problem is that the rest of the country does not. Rock---hard place like you say.

    Parent
    The bigger problem is...... (none / 0) (#105)
    by NYShooter on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:34:35 AM EST
    "The Base" votes,

    the rest of the country, not so much.
     

    Parent

    Whereas in Wyoming, ... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:53:43 PM EST
    Sen. Tom Cotton: "In Iran they hang you for the crime of being gay."

    ... they merely pretend that they're also gay and are interested in you, before kidnapping you at gunpoint, taking you to a remote area outside of town, lashing you to a fence and then pistol-whipping you into unconsciousness, before fleeing the scene and leaving you to die of exposure.

    God bless America.

    Parent

    not condoning (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by CST on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:56:03 PM EST
    what happened in Laramie under any circumstances - but there is a big difference between a criminal and a state action.

    In any event, we don't live in Iran.  So we can't control their state actions.  We do live in the U.S.  These people are our representatives to the world.

    Parent

    That criminal act was a predictable result ... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:07:03 PM EST
    ... of the overtly anti-LGBT agenda which was then being pursued at the time by the religious right and their political allies in public office. Not to excuse what's happening in Iran with regards to its treatment of gay men and lesbians, but we've hardly been any better in this country until just the last few years.

    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:20:49 PM EST
    they also sometimes hang you for the crime of being christian.  Hope someone pointed that out.  

    Parent
    People have also been killed (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:38:56 PM EST
    for being the wrong kind of Muslim, or for being Bahai's or Yezidis..

    They also execute a hundred people a day in China, but we rarely hear about that because of the whole cheap labor, no environmental/safety regs thing.

     

    Parent

    Yes, and they (none / 0) (#60)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:18:06 PM EST
    hang you in Iran for sedition. Such as trying to publicly undermine the rulers.  Probably just sending a letter to Obama decrying the Iranian Ayatollah would do it.

    Parent
    And meanwhile in Kenya (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peter G on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 06:51:38 PM EST
    147 university students students murdered by beheading by Shabaab nutters for being (or accused of being) Christian.  The country is over 80% Christian, only 11% Muslim, so -- aside from being disgusting -- this doesn't seem like such a smart strategy for gaining power.

    Parent
    But it sure seems like a sure-fired way ... (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 07:33:49 PM EST
    ... to encourage in-kind retaliation against other Muslims who otherwise have absolutely nothing to do with al Shabaab's provocative atrocities.

    And maybe that's al Shabaab's real goal here -- to foment domestic discord and social chaos throughout the horn of Africa, as the first step toward perhaps redrawing the region's political map.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    From today's news accounts (none / 0) (#92)
    by Peter G on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:14:45 AM EST
    it appears the murderous rampage involved shooting, not beheading. So there's that.

    Parent
    To go off on somewhat of a tangent, (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Zorba on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:39:42 AM EST
    James Byrd, Jr. was dragged to death behind a truck in 1998 for the "crime" of being black.
    Shooting, lynching, beheading, being dragged to death, whatever.  They're all barbaric and these have happened because someone is the wrong religion, the wrong sect, the wrong color, the wrong sexual orientation, etc.
    Humanity still has a long way to go.
    We have a very close friend who maintains that "Humans are a near miss."  I would amend that to say, sometimes they're a pretty far miss.    :-(

    Parent
    Correct (none / 0) (#109)
    by NYShooter on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:48:18 AM EST
    The al Shabaab purist brigades roam the country asking individual people what their religion is. If they say, "Christian," they are shot on the spot. Those Christians, who are aware of this qualifier, and answer (falsely) "Muslim," are then asked questions about items in the Koran that most Christians wouldn't know the answer to.

    And, then they are shot in the head.

    Parent

    And then we have (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:44:58 PM EST
    these bakeries in Dearborn denying service to gay coupleswithout it being mentioned.

    Does that help anyone understand why Christians are suspicious of the Left and the media???

    Parent

    Steven Crowder (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:54:13 PM EST
    By 2009, Crowder regularly posted satirical videos on politically conservative media, including Pajamas Media[4] and later at Andrew Breitbart's Big Hollywood. Crowder served as the master of ceremonies at the 2011 Conservative Political Action Conference,[5] and generated some controversy with a rap video he premiered at CPAC 2012.[6] In October 2012, Crowder's YouTube video parodying Lena Dunham's ad endorsing Barack Obama was mentioned in the conservative magazine American Spectator.[7]

    Don't bother.   His point seems to be gay are killed in muslim countries so what are we complaining about.

    Parent

    cake and flowers (2.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 05:24:11 PM EST
    It's hypocrisy and duplicity at its finest.

    For 20 years in 20 states with RFRAs, not one person has been denied a flower or cake for a wedding, except in LGBT fantasyland.

    Parent

    i've been an LGBT activist (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 06:18:32 PM EST
    for 45 years, longer than some of the commenters here have been alive

    For 20 years in 20 states with RFRAs, not one person has been denied a flower or cake for a wedding, except in LGBT fantasyland.

    maybe what you say is true, & maybe it isn't - i don't have the stats to prove or disprove the statement - i do know that in 1976 my partner & i were haughtily, publicly, loudly, & with great hosility refused a room with a double bed at the Drake Hotel in Chicago

    at the same time, simply because i have been an activist for all these years, one issue i've worked on in the LGBT communities where i've lived is racism

    for that reason among others, i cringe when i see people whipping this Indiana law up into some sort of Jim Crow equivalent - it's just not that - please go & read Peter G's very clear comment from several days ago, which explains just what the law is & what it does

    & not only do i cringe at the Jim Crow comparisons, they piss me off, since we've worked very hard to open & maintain a trusting dialogue between white & black people in our LGBT communities - believe me, this kind of demonization is not helpful to that effort, to say nothing of the damage it may be doing to the efforts of our counterparts in Indiana

    those of you who are not LGBT, thank you for your supportive intentions, but my black friends & my white friends & i don't need or want your hysteria, & we don't want to be your proxies in your ongoing debates & conflicts with people of religious faith (indeed, many of my black LGBT friends have deep & treasured ties to the Christian churches they grew up in, churches that still provide uncontested cultural links to homophobic family members whom they continue to love) - again, thanks for your good intentions, but please fight your own religious wars

    those of you who are LGBT, please ask yourselves whether you, if you worked in catering, would feel put upon if hordes of hyserical Christian fundamentalists were demanding, in the name of all that is good & holy, that you be compelled to provide your services to the Westboro Baptist Church - you know the answer to that question as well as i do

    & then please think about the fact that they are throwing suspected gay people from the tops of buildings in the Middle East, for f^ck's sake, & ask yourselves whether that might be more important than having a meltdown about the people who don't want to bake a cake for your big fat gay wedding when plenty of others do

    thank you

    Parent

    I've been a human being for almost (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:57:36 PM EST
    62 years; I'm a woman, a wife, a mother, a grandmother.  I'm passionate about my own humanity, and desire nothing more than for my fellow humans to respect their own essential humanity, as well as that of their fellow travelers here on Planet Earth.

    It pains me that you have to identify as an LBGT activist; that someone else has to identify as a civil rights activist.  That we have to have and be a collection of activists, separate and together standing in the territory we've staked out to wage the battles we fight.  We end up training others to see us as the thing we're fighting for, instead of as the human beings we are.  And brainwashing ourselves into believing that we are who our territory marks us as.

    Instead of being people who fall in love and wish to marry.  Instead of being people who want to have children, buy houses, go to church, go to school, get jobs, live lives of fullness and purpose.  Who happen to be male or female, black or brown or white, gay or straight, blond or redhead, fat or thin, short or tall, beautiful or plain, smart or not.  Because under the skin, beyond appearance, and gender and race and all those other things, we are human beings whose hearts all beat, whose lungs move air, whose neurons fire, who feel lust and love and longing.

    If we're going to fight, we have to fight for each other, not be told that our caring about someone's cause is really just so sweet, but we don't understand, so please go back to the sidelines.

    I'm tired of activism.  We need humanism.  

    Parent

    Anne, again . . . (none / 0) (#179)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 02:44:27 AM EST
    thank you

    sincerely

    i do appreciate your perspective, if i also think that my being an LGBT activist is probably the least interesting thing about myself, & the least significant facet of my identity, such as it is - rewarding though the work has been at times, i would have liked to spend more of my 66 years doing other, more enjoyable things, but that's life, & lots of people can say the same thing, so i'm not feeling sorry for myself

    i am sorry, however, that part of my comment was patronizing & hurtful to you, or so it seems to have been - you're a good ally, & my intention was not to be hurtful, but what matters is the effect - please let me know if you want me to clarify that particular point in a more thoughtful way, & if will try to do that

    of course you must always follow your heart & your conscience & never allow yourself to be sidelined by anyone

    peace

    Parent

    I guess what I was trying - not so (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Anne on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:55:26 AM EST
    articulately - to express is that I'd like for all the things that make us different from each other to not matter, that there will come a day when people's differences won't be their identifiers.  Where the fact that you're gay, or I'm a woman, or someone else is black, or not a Christian just doesn't matter.  Where the quality of one's humanity is what defines one as a good person or a not-such-a-good person.

    But I also recognize that we don't get to that place by doing nothing about people who keep trying to get the courts and the government to institutionalize and codify their bigotry.  We can't just do nothing and let it happen by default.

    I think maybe we've all gotten to the point where we think that those who aren't like us can't understand our particular fight, but I guess all I'm trying to express is that not sharing the identifiers of others doesn't mean I can't stand in solidarity, in spirit.  That in my interactions with people I encounter in daily life, I can't or shouldn't express my opinions, or share my perspective in an effort to open minds or eyes that are closed.

    I know you meant well.

    Parent

    Not really sure (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:28:23 PM EST
    who you are talking to here.  I have never compared this to Jim Crow.  Personally I think that's a bit like comparing Obamas Iran peace plan to Neville Chamberlain.  That said as I said above, if you really think this is about pizza or cake or flowers you simply don't understand the intent of these laws or the people writing them.

    And I confess a bit of surprise at calling yourself an LGBT activist and seeming to say you are fine with LGBT people being denied services in the same comment.  
    It seems to me that is as out if proportion as the comparison you are criticizing.

    When the court decides this summer that all states must allow same sex marriage will you side with the Huckabees and Cruzs of the world who are probably going to tell states to resist?   Where exactly is the line for you on not getting excited about equal rights as long as we are not being killed by the state?

    Parent

    nonsense (none / 0) (#155)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:46:36 PM EST


    Parent
    This is nonsense (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:59:42 PM EST
    those of you who are LGBT, please ask yourselves whether you, if you worked in catering, would feel put upon if hordes of hyserical Christian fundamentalists were demanding, in the name of all that is good & holy, that you be compelled to provide your services to the Westboro Baptist Church - you know the answer to that question as well as i do

    & then please think about the fact that they are throwing suspected gay people from the tops of buildings in the Middle East, for f^ck's sake, & ask yourselves whether that might be more important than having a meltdown about the people who don't want to bake a cake for your big fat gay wedding when plenty of others do

    Let's start with comparing a random gay couple with Fred Phelps.  Seriously?
    Then let's take the tired right wing Tom Cotton talking point that we are not being killed like other places so we really should just STFU.

    The way this conversation has been framed is unfortunate.  It allows people to pretend we are talking about cakes and flowers and not about giving the thousands of church owned businesses and educational institutions a free hand to discriminate.  
    There was an easy way to avoid this problem for the authors.  And after a serious browbeating the did it.  If they had done originally none of this would have happened.  Denying service to anyone is not ok.  Period.   If you have a problem providing services to everyone you shouldn't open a business to the public.  And you can cringe all you like.  We as a country decided that back in the 60s.


    Parent

    If you live (none / 0) (#156)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:58:55 PM EST
    in a city like Atlanta, yes there are going to be a lot of other places who will give you service. However if you live in a small town or in south Georgia there is probably not going to be anyone who gives you service. And neither is the next town over nor the next town over because in these places if you did flowers for a gay wedding, for example, you would be socially ostracized. And as someone who actually has lived in Central Georgia I can tell you there are people who deny services to African Americans too. Oh, they won't come out and say it but some of them will. An African American friend of mine was a waitress and went to serve her customers and they spoke to management and said they didn't want a $%^&* waiting on them.

    I do however think that some of the reactions have been over the top. C'mon calling them and making threats? That's way over the top. Putting comments on Yelp? Yeah, fine.

    All in all people are sick of the culture war and this stupid law is a lot about that.

    Parent

    You know who I think (none / 0) (#167)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:04:52 PM EST
    is the most sick of the gay culture war?  Sensible republicans.   I think they were counting on the court taking this issue away this summer.  Counting on it.  They know they are losing.  That it is a loser issue for them.  
    Then suddenly BAM it's all back just in time for the big election show.  This is going to make the republican primaries very interesting.  Way more than it would have been without it.  I have been reading that Huckabee and Cruz at least and possibly others like Jindal will tell states to resist allowing same sex marriage.  And some just might.  
    What will happen then.  This is sort of unexplored territory.  Are we going to have gay weddings with the National Guard as ushers?
    I don't know.  But it's going to be fun to watch.  And you know what?  I never thought I would live to see it but I'm REALLY glad I have.

    Parent
    The (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:39:50 PM EST
    few sensible Republicans that are left I guess so. Though there's only about 20 of them in congress and none in the senate. Even people like Johnny Isakson who would have fallen into that category is now diseased.

    I hadn't thought about all this in regards to the GOP primary but you make some good points. Yes, old Sharia Bush is going to not be able to weasel out of making a statement on these laws.

    I would not be suprised to hear a lot of governors resisting the gay marriage thing. Deal will probably jump on board along with NC, SC and a whole bunch of southern states along with probably at state like Utah.

    BTW I just saw last night that the airport in Little Rock is named the Bill AND Hillary Clinton National Airport. I did not know that previously.

    Parent

    Somewhere (none / 0) (#182)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 08:19:18 AM EST
    i have a selfie with Air Force One in the BG at that little airport.

    Parent
    In every state in the union a caterer (none / 0) (#163)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:33:07 PM EST
    would be in violation of public accommodations law if they refused service to someone because of their religion or political affiliation.

    Yes, even the people of Westboro are protected by the law.

    Parent

    So the pizzeria owner (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 05:29:11 PM EST
    was mistaken in her assumption that the law would grant her that right?  Or is your point that it shouldn't matter?

    For the record gay marriage has not been legal for 20 years.  For that matter I was under the impression that the we already had religious freedom.  Help me out and explain why more laws are needed.

    Parent

    pizzaria (none / 0) (#149)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    The young lady at that pizzaria expressed her religious opinion. Was that okay with you??? It's still a free country, isn't it???

    She didn't harm anybody, or do anything to anybody, or take pizza out of anybody's mouth, and for that she gets death threats. And you're okay with that???

    Is that what you call "tolerance of other opinions", and "freedom of dissent"???

    There are hundreds of pizza places, bakeries and florists in every town. For every one that doesn't want your business for whatever reason there are 10 others that do.

    Is there something that would keep you from going next door to them???

    Parent

    Would say nice try (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:15:08 PM EST
    but actually it isn't.  What she said was pretty clear.  I asked you if she was right.  Or do you not care if she was.  She was in fact right about the law.   And if you seriously think this is really about pizza or cakes or flowers you are dumber than even I think you are.

      The fact is that most on the right aren't even denying the intent of these laws any more.  That's why two states backtracked and several others are backing away from similar laws.

    Afaiac you can take your "poor me, tolerance"  crap and shove it where the sun don't shine.  No one is buying it but your pals Huckabee and Cruz.  

    Parent

    Memories Pizza vs. the Internet (none / 0) (#154)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:45:50 PM EST
    . . . the abuse Memories Pizza is currently facing is arguably no different than the type of harassment women faced during Gamergate -- except the trolls in this case think they stand on sturdier moral ground

    clearly, an enterprising TV "reporter" <cough> targeted Crystal O'Connor because of the very visible Christian iconography prominently featured in her family's restaurant, a restaurant where, she says, no gay person will be denied service just for being gay

    i wonder how many of the inflamed Internet mobsters feel perfectly comfortable with, if not slobberingly deferent to, "Eastern" & "New Age" religious icons & symbols in the coffeehouses & restaurants they patronize

    personally, i'm outraged that a woman-owned small business is facing threats of arson that are supposedly being made in my name

    i hope the first test of this Indiana law comes quickly, so we can all see this insane harassment for what it is & write this Internet tempest off as the "hands up, don't shoot" of the month

    Parent

    I guess (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:03:24 PM EST
    they are crying all the way to the bank.

    WATCH: Indiana Pizzeria Owners Become Right-Wing Martyrs, Raise $820K

    Poor babies

    Parent

    Let me ask you a question (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:06:39 PM EST
    tell me what you think would happen if  gay business owner played to the cameras and said christians were not welcome?

    You think that woman and people like her would not be doing the same thing?


    Parent

    One more thing (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:15:37 PM EST
    if you want to talk about women you might want to consider that we are talking about gay cakes AND birth controll.  Among other things.

    Parent
    Getting trashed by (none / 0) (#162)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:27:18 PM EST
    asshats on the Internet happens all the time. My goodness, you want to read some ugly comments try visiting just about any site that features posts by feminists or check the ugliness that gets thrown at women in the whole gamer kerfuffle. Or, omg, the comments whenever someone voices a defense of a woman's right to make all her own medical decisions, including those pertaining to reproductive health.

    Yes it is ugly. The Internet is filled with people spewing hatred. These pizzeria owners are part of a big group.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:38:44 PM EST
    most people don't get to be a millionaire as a consolation prize.

    Don't get me wrong.  I'm not defending the ugliness.  The part I don't understand is why anyone would want someone to make them a cake if they didn't want to.  Or why this is being presented as a real threat.

    Parent

    I don't think anyone (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:53:16 PM EST
    would want their wedding made by someone who didn't want to do it. That does not change the fact that businesses cannot discriminate.

    Parent
    Or (none / 0) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 05:33:51 PM EST
    is your point that you should have the special rights people like you have been accusing us of wanting for years?

    Parent
    You need to do better research. (none / 0) (#161)
    by caseyOR on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 08:20:39 PM EST
    LGBT couples have indeed had florists and bakeries refuse to sell them their goods and services because the florist or baker was opposed to marriage equality. Religiously opposed. This has happened even in liberal Oregon.

    In Oregon this refusal was a violation of state public accommodations law., the same as refusing to sell someone a cake because of their religion or gender or color.

    Parent

    Perhaps (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:56:33 PM EST
    you could use the handy 10 question test I posted down thread to determine if your religious liberty is being threatened.

    Parent
    Perhaps you could tell me why (3.00 / 3) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:05:44 PM EST
    you are attacking the messenger while trying to ignore the message.

    And yes, when this happens I think we have a scent in the wind.

    The city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city's first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court.

    "The city's subpoena of sermons and other pastoral communications is both needless and unprecedented," Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christina Holcomb said in a statement. "The city council and its attorneys are engaging in an inquisition designed to stifle any critique of its actions."



    Parent
    Ok (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:33:03 PM EST
    reading about that I think it deserves a more serious response.
    what the Mayor did was unwise.  She did it for IMO the right reasons but it was not, it the larger scheme of things, a smart thing to do.  And she paid for it.  I hope we are also concerned about her death threats because not unlike the pizza woman she did a dumb thing because if a deeply held belief and paid for it.  Well pizza woman was sort of reimbursed but youknowwhatimean.

    Btw
    I love your impotent response to the religious liberty test.  Do you?

    Parent

    And what are her "right reasons?" (1.00 / 1) (#194)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:16:50 AM EST
    BTW - The pizza woman isn't an elected official and has exactly no power over her fellow citizens.

    And for the government to demand copies of sermons was most egregious.

    As someone who has long commented that I support gay rights, including marriage, it troubles me to see the media and gay activists ignoring what Muslim store owners in DEARBORN, MI are doing, not to mention what is happening in Islamic theocracies. There cannot be two standards in this matter.

    Along with the Houston ministers and pizza lady we have this from CO and ID

    "Goad served as lead counsel for a couple who filed charges against a Denver bakery owner who refused to sell them a wedding cake. The Colorado Civil Rights Commission sided with the couple in May; the bakery owner announced he would no longer sell wedding cakes to anyone."

    snip

    "I think it's of extreme importance," he told The Huffington Post. "We've been warning all along that these sexual orientation non-discrimination laws would be used in this exact way. We've got bakers, florists, photographers and now ordained ministers being threatened with jail times, fines and attorney fees that will put them out of business simply because of how they want to follow their faith. If they're unwilling to celebrate and promote same-sex marriage because it contradicts their beliefs, they'll lose their livelihoods. The government shouldn't force them to choose."

    Tedesco argued that Coeur d'Alene has been inconsistent with its message about whether the Hitching Post is exempt from the non-discrimination ordinance. However, he acknowledged, the city does now appear to agree that the Hitching Post is exempt. "That, of course, resulted from the massive public outcry from our complaint," he said.

    Huffington Post

    Many Christians have long looked at homosexual acts as a sin. But they regard it no more a sin than many others. They believe in "Love the sinner but hate the sin." And ignore the sins of others as best possible because salvation is a personal thing not a group act.

    But now they see changes. The issue to many is not gay rights or even marriage for that matter. Their concern is that they will be forced to violate their religious beliefs by participating. The Denver baker felt that he was enabling, to a degree, what he believed was a sinful act. Many ministers see themselves marrying gays as condoning a sinful act. And that puts their soul in jeopardy.

    What we are now seeing is the collision of two fundamental rights. The right to exercise their freedom of religion and the right to be treated equally.

    And if we can't find a middle ground this may turn  very nasty.

    Parent

    Bring it. (none / 0) (#195)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:21:28 AM EST
    a pi$$ed off queen will educate you on the definition of "nasty"

    Parent
    Oh and by the way (none / 0) (#196)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:29:49 AM EST
    no one is saying "ministers" would or should be "required" to perform same sex Marriages.  Exactly no one.  If you can remove your head from behind long enough please provide a like that is not Breitbart or FOX or Blaze that has ever once suggested they would.

    Parent
    I see you didn't read the (2.00 / 1) (#199)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:51:08 AM EST
    Huffington Post link.

    And you fail to grasp it is what people "think" that is important.

    Parent

    Looks like you omitted an important fact (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:59:30 AM EST
    From that HuffPo excerpt,
    Jim:

    There is one major problem with all this outrage, according to city officials in Coeur d'Alene: The owners of the Hitching Post Wedding Chapel do not face arrest or fines or any other penalty for refusing to marry same-sex couples.

    The lawsuit argues that Coeur d'Alene's non-discrimination ordinance -- which was passed last year and bars businesses and public accommodations from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity -- will "unconstitutionally" force the Knapps to either "violate their religious convictions and ministerial vows" by performing same-sex weddings or face jail time and fines. According to the suit, the city has "privately and publicly threatened to apply" the ordinance to the Hitching Post.

    However, according to city officials and the lawsuit itself, the Hitching Post filed papers with the Idaho Secretary of State identifying itself as a religious corporation on Oct. 6, the day before the 9th Circuit struck down Idaho's ban. The city's ordinance explicitly states that religious corporations are exempt from the law.

    So, in answer to your statement, no, it doesn't matter what people think, it's what the law says.

    You're not doing very well at making your case today.  

    Parent

    And how (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:01:03 AM EST
    is that different from other days?

    Parent
    A public accomidation or business (none / 0) (#200)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:51:21 AM EST
    is suppose to be open to all, regardless of the religious beliefs of the proprietors.

    Also, there is nothing in the Bible about not selling to homosexuals, just as there is nothing about not selling to adulterers, fornicators, pagan worshippers, etc.

    And if a place opened up in TN that refused to serve/sell to Christians, the outcry from you and many of your fellow Christians there would be so loud as to make the IN controversy seem like a playground tiff between two first-graders.

    Parent

    You write (2.00 / 1) (#206)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:19:57 AM EST
    Also, there is nothing in the Bible about not selling to homosexuals, just as there is nothing about not selling to adulterers, fornicators, pagan worshippers, etc.

    The issue to many Christians is not about "selling." It is about "participating" which is "condoning."

    The Denver baker felt that he was enabling, to a degree, what he believed was a sinful act. Many ministers see themselves marrying gays as condoning a sinful act. And that puts their soul in jeopardy.

    James 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

    So no, there is no Biblical reference to selling, but there is one against condoning and/or participating.

    BTW, note that James is in the New Testament. The Old Testament was fulfilled with the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Mosaic law does not apply to Christians.

    And I ignore your hypothetical because it has nothing to do with my stated beliefs. (Try reading the thread and not distorting what I have written.)


    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:13:23 PM EST
    if you are going to post FOX NEWS crap you might at least post the most recent version-

    Houston mayor drops bid to subpoena pastors' sermons

    I have no idea what this was about but now I will find out.   That is a pretty smart mayor.


    Parent

    OMG (none / 0) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:19:12 PM EST
    that crazy lezbian mayor has gone off the rails!

    Nevertheless, the mayor still seems hell-bent on defending the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance - a piece of legislation that will in part give grown men who identify as women the right to use the restrooms of their choice.



    Parent
    Ah, so after a while the sweet nice mayor (none / 0) (#191)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:29:12 AM EST
    dropped the subpoena..

    I am sure that fixed everything. All of the lost time and dollars spent by the ministers on legal fees magically reappeared in their bank accounts and no one will be intimated in the future.

    Can you say, "Chilling effect?"

    Parent

    Pfffft (none / 0) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:33:55 AM EST
    some of us might be ok with organized efforts to suppress the rights of others being "chilled".

    You hilarious victimhood part 9,000,012.

    Parent

    You don't speak for "Christians" (none / 0) (#145)
    by Yman on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 05:28:21 PM EST
    "Christians" are not suspicious of the Left and the media.  Wingnuts who call themselves "Christians" are suspicious of the Left and media.

    Good thing most rational people don't care about their opinions.

    BTW - Enact the law in Michigan, too, or - if there already is a law - enforce it.

    Problem solved.

    Parent

    If they stop watching the lies (none / 0) (#180)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 07:19:12 AM EST
    aboutt the Left from Fox News, maybe they would be better off with a reality based approach.

    Instead, they are listening to idiots who tell they're under attack for being Christian when they're totally acting in an unChristian way.

    Jesus fed the multitudes with fish and bread except for those who were gay in their version of the Bible, I guess.

    Parent

    Looks like GOP Senator Mark Kirk of Illinois (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 07:48:26 AM EST
    is begging to bring the right wing nuts out to try and take his seat in 2016.

    I strongly oppose what (Indiana) Governor Pence did. We should not enshrine bigotry under the cover of religion. It's not just bad practice - it's un-American.

    Or he's planning to retire without telling anyone yet.

    Either way, it's nice to see a brief bit of sanity from the right side of the aisle.

    More on Indiana (none / 0) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:09:42 AM EST
    Wash. Gov. Prefers Full Repeal Of Controversial Indiana Law

    WASHINGTON -- Washington Gov. Jay Inslee (D) says he's leaning heavily toward joining local Indiana Democrats calling for a full repeal of a controversial religious freedom law that critics say is a thinly-veiled move to legalize gay discrimination.
    ...
    "A repeal, to me, seems to be in order, to make clear that the state of Indiana does not allow discrimination," Inslee told TPM. "And there's really no other reason, at least, that necessitated this type of act, except the desire to discriminate against LGBT members. That's what drove this. So it would seem to me a repeal would be in order given how dramatic this was a reversal of the progress we've made against discrimination and in favor of civil rights in this country. I mean that's certainly what I'd recommend."

    Disciples Of Christ Cancels 2017 Convention In Protest Of Religious Freedom Law

    Parent

    Yesterday's "Stanford Daily" (5.00 / 6) (#15)
    by Peter G on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 10:59:28 AM EST
    the student newspaper (in its April 1 edition, in other words), congratulated their varsity basketball coach for "boycotting Indiana in support of LGBTQ rights by keeping Stanford's team out of the NCAA Final Four."

    Parent
    He's trying to save his political hide... (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:16:34 AM EST
    it's nice to see a pol need to say the right thing to save their hide...that's a switch from appealing to the lowest common denominator to save their hide (see Netanyahu, every recent GOP primary, etc.).

    And are we kickin' arse and takin' names in the culture war or what?  This week has felt like D-Day, and all that's left now is for the haters to surrender, major combat operations are over.  Good job Troops!

    Parent

    That statement won't save his hide (none / 0) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:25:15 AM EST
    It will likely bury him in the GOP primary.

    Parent
    It might make the primary... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 08:33:12 AM EST
    a rockier road, but it's what he has to say to have a prayer in the general.  

    The religious right revolution is over Lebowski, the bums lost!  I suggest they do what their children did, find love and tolerance in their hearts.  

    Parent

    They should think of all the mental energy (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 09:47:51 AM EST
    they will save...tolerance is so much healthier. Why on earth would anyone want to use their precious, short life to get all exercised about other people's s*x lives? I just don't get it.

    Parent
    I propose a variation on the old trope (none / 0) (#10)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 09:50:05 AM EST
    'No one on their death bed ever said that they wish they had spent more time at the office'.

    No one on their death bed ever said that they wish they had worried more about what other people were doing in bed.

    Parent

    Seriously... (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 09:52:46 AM EST
    I'll go one step further, why get all worked up about other people's anything that has nothing to do with you?

    "Minding my own business" is a tenet of my philosophy on life.

    Parent

    Mark Kirk must (none / 0) (#94)
    by KeysDan on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:56:28 AM EST
    be trying to return to the good graces of the wingers.  In a statement on the Iran deal more fitting to Lindsey or McCain, Kirk likened the framework to Nazi appeasement by Neville Chamberlain, but with Chamberlain getting a lot more out of Adolph Hitler.  

    Apparently, Kirk's history is such that Chamberlain was permitted, for example, to inspect Hitler's  V-1 and V-2 rocket plants at Peenemunde.  And, then, more important to Kirk than history, is the present: the announcement that Tammy Duckworth will be running for his senate seat.  

    Parent

    The more I hear and read (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:06:06 AM EST
    about this deal, and also based on who seems to hate it, I'm starting to think it may be a very good thing.  Maybe a very good thing indeed.

    Parent
    And I agree that is what Kirk is doing (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 10:07:56 AM EST
    Tammy is going to take that seat next year and he knows it.

    Parent
    Whatever (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:22:36 PM EST
    The results will be the same.

    Parent
    Yes, because intrusive inspections (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:30:38 PM EST
    are just the same as a signature on a piece of paper.

    Parent
    Another day - Another poll (none / 0) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 10:00:20 AM EST
    Showing Hillary dominating her possible GOP opponents.

    vs Bush - Clinton +12
    vs Walker - Clinton +14
    vs Rubio - Clinton +15
    vs Cruz - Clinton +17

    This was the ABC/Washington Post Poll which also polled Clinton vs Bush in April 2014. The result a year ago? Clinton +12...no change.

    Can't resist, CG (none / 0) (#17)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 12:37:01 PM EST
    What does that show us? For the Repubs, the answer is clear: Time to try to manufacture a new "scandal."  Surely, there must be some other something to shout Benghaziiii out there.  

    Parent
    The repubs (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 01:01:39 PM EST
    are stupid. All the scandal mongering does is make people ticked at them because they're sick of it.

    Parent
    You keep saying that, (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by NYShooter on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:21:20 PM EST
    But, those "stupid people" have managed to capture both Houses of Congress, a huge majority of Governorships, and, an even greater majority of State Legislatures. And, given that large an advantage in State-wide power, it gives them an overwhelming advantage for future National victories.

    Maybe a lot of their followers are, so-called, "stupid," but their Leadership sure isn't. They do research, they have their own polls, and, they also have a large number of one percenters funding their agendas. And, with their Supreme Court majority redefining laws we thought were democratic "done deals," into Right Wing fascist mutations, I wouldn't be so cocky in dismissing them.

    They know one thing for certain....... math.

    100 Teabaggers that vote,

    beat

    1000 Liberals that sit home and complain.

    It works every time, and, it really is that simple.

    Parent

    All true (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:37:37 PM EST
    BUT for some reason they seem to sit out presidential elections and do well during off year.

    Of course that rationale could also lead to someone like Ted Cruz being their 2016 nominee.

    Parent

    What are you talking about? (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 01:41:48 PM EST
    Voter turnout in presidential elections have been dipping, but it was the Democrats who didn't come out to vote in bigger numbers in 2012

    A cliff-hanger presidential election, major issues at stake, an estimated $6 billion spent in the 2012 campaigns and an eight million person increase in the eligible voters all failed to sustain the upward momentum for turnout from 2004 and 2008.

    Voter turnout dipped from 62.3 percent of eligible citizens voting in 2008 to an estimated 57.5 in 2012. That figure was also below the 60.4 level of the 2004 election but higher than the 54.2 percent turnout in the 2000 election.

    Despite an increase of over eight million citizens in the eligible population, turnout declined from 131 million voters in 2008 to an estimated 126 million voters in 2012 when all ballots are tallied. Some 93 million eligible citizens did not vote.

    Even in 2008, when the Republicans didn't have much of a chance, their turnout dropped by only 1.3% while Democrats (despite the meme) gained 2.6% in turnout.

    Parent

    Your link says nothing (none / 0) (#122)
    by CoralGables on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 02:58:31 PM EST
    about the stats concerning turnout comparisons for each political party for 2012.

    Parent
    You can download a PDF (none / 0) (#129)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:50:14 PM EST
    For the full report from my link.

    Turnout was down for both Republicans and Democrats, falling 4.2 percentage points for the Democrats from 33.0 percent of eligible citizens in 2008 to 28.8 this year; and 1.2 percentage points for the GOP from 28.4 in 2008 to 27.2 this year.


    Parent
    And the pdf (none / 0) (#138)
    by CoralGables on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:33:06 PM EST
    doesn't compare presidential election years to midterm elections as was mentioned by Ga6th.

    Whether she is right or wrong I don't know, but your link makes no mention of her point of discussion.

    Parent

    One (none / 0) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 03:07:12 PM EST
    of the problems to think about with regards to that is the GOP base is shrinking in size. Even with smaller percentage losses it could be that there just aren't enough republicans to really matter in presidential races.

    However a lot of Republicans apparently think like you do that their base is going to be enough to win an election and they think that all the people that don't show up to vote are people that would be voting for them if they nominated someone like Ted Cruz.

    Parent

    The worse (none / 0) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:41:38 PM EST
    problem as I see it is that Dems wring their hands over someone who will fight the GOP ala Hillary and prefer PPUS like Obama.

    The whole scandal mongering thing is more of a fleece the rubes thing more than anything else. You are right that the leadership knows what they are doing. It's all about keeping the far right worked up to show up. However, that's about 20%. There's also a lot of people in the center who are turned off by the nonsense the GOP puts out there.

    Parent

    Arkansas in the news (none / 0) (#16)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 12:27:20 PM EST
    ONE: Of course, the fact that Governor Asa Hutchinson recognized that the Pence-routine wasn't going to work anywhere and took the high-road when he announced yesterday that he would not agree to the discriminatory legislation passed there ... Asa, prompted by Wal Mart and, er, his son (shall we repeat "Wal Mart) demonstrated, at the very least, that he learned the lessons resulting from the Indiana fiasco and that he even could look like a state leader in repudiating his own legislature's attempt to go down the wrong road.  

    TWO: In the past day, the still-to-be-verified-by-Guinness world record for longevity moved to an Arkansas woman, Gertrude Weaver.  Weaver is 116 years old, still relatively strong, and expressed a wish to meet President Obama (for whom she voted twice) for her 117th birthday.  Her birthday is celebrated on July 4th.  

    A bouquet of good wishes and a bunch of cheers for Gertrude Weaver and her obvious tenacity in all things.  And:  How 'bout them Arkansans! Long-lived & healthy, we hope ... ya hear that Capt?!

    THREE: A caution, tho, also comes from Arkansas via a news blurb earlier today.  That is, Don't Drink Too Much Iced Tea ... it seems that a man in his mid-50s was in the habit of drinking about 16 glasses of iced tea a day; developed kidney disease; and, passed away.  (I guess the message is that drinking too much of anything can be more than a downer. Well, at my age, I can't handle more than one good martini at a time anymore ... with maybe a glass of wine & dinner afterward.)

    Hope all is well in your part of Arkansas, Capt. Howdy.

    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by sj on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 06:23:00 PM EST
    Moderation in all things is good.
    Well, at my age, I can't handle more than one good martini at a time anymore ... with maybe a glass of wine & dinner afterward.)
    Myself, lately I've been having a hard time with those La Loma margaritas. I just can't understand it.

    Parent
    Correction: The excessive consumption (none / 0) (#26)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 02:20:18 PM EST
    of iced tea led to intensive hospitalization and treatment.  Thankfully, the individual did survive ... but, he will require lifelong kidney treatment.

    Parent
    Um (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:11:37 PM EST
    we are all good.  I guess.  I hope the lady gets her birthday wish.  Doubting the iced tea thing.  Hard to believe there is such a thing as to much iced tea.

    On Asa I, surprisingly, believe him when he spoke of his son.   It may not have been the deciding factor and I don't doubt WalMart carries more weight he seemed sincere.  I read the longer statement/letter whatever it was and it was quite moving and clearly deeply felt.
    I'm am feeling better about our governor than I have since I heard he was running.

    Parent

    True. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by christinep on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:44:08 PM EST
    A few years back, Ohio's Bob Portman changed his position and attitude in regard to gay rights in response to his son, who is gay.  Portman's change seems quite genuine and lasting.  So ... after allowing my skepticism about Asa Hutchinson to get the better of me, the better part of valor here would be to take the Governor at his word with regard to his son.

    Now ... as for that strange Senator Cotton, I do believe it is ok for me to say without restraint that the Arkansas Senator is a doozy with his all-things-mean-Iran-is-evil approach as well as with his unfortunate Perkins eyes & grin in the Bates' house.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:12:24 PM EST
    i would say perfectly OK

    For the record I have no information or indication that the governors son is gay.  He might be.   He just sounds like a very decent human being.  It's comforting to know that he has the governors ear.

    Parent

    More (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:50:44 PM EST
    on the son.  Sounds like an interesting guy

    A lot of people have back and forth discussions with their parents on political issues. But it's rare that it becomes national news.

    Seth Hutchinson is a union organiser in Texas and the son of the Arkansas governor, Asa Hutchinson. On Saturday, Seth emailed his father about his opposition to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), which was then under consideration by the state legislature.

    Opponents claim that the bill, which passed the legislature on Tuesday, allows businesses to discriminate against gays and lesbians on religious grounds. Supporters of the bill say it simply mirrors federal law that prevents the government from "substantially burdening" a person's exercise of religion unless there is a "compelling interest."

    Seth Hutchinson told the Guardian that he "sent an email [to his father] and told him I was planning on signing the petition [opposing the bill]. The Arkansas governor read the email and "gave a very thoughtful response back" and told his son that he very much appreciated his thoughts. Seth Hutchinson didn't hear anything more on the subject until Wednesday morning.



    Parent
    Interesting bit of trivia (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:00:18 PM EST
    Although the Hutchinson family has long been involved in state politics - prior to serving as governor, Asa Hutchinson served in Congress and as head of the Drug Enforcement Administration

    As it happens my nephew, the son of my sister who is having health problems, who is "the tip of the spear"  for drug enforcement in north Arkansas has worked very closely with the gov for years in his previous position.

    In the fall I always hear James and his crew buzzing around in choppers looking for pot plants.

    I do have an interesting family.  And interesting holiday dinners.

    Parent

    Hutchinson never bothered to listen ... (none / 0) (#52)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:32:51 PM EST
    ... to his son's political advice earlier. Why would he suddenly start now? Nah, his second thoughts about his own anti-gay bill have everything to do with the public backlash which his fellow wingbat Mike Pence is presently enduring in Indiana. Hutchinson fils was simply trotted out by Dad for use as a convenient rhetorical fig leaf.

    Parent
    Oh well (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:35:14 PM EST
     guess you would know.  

    Parent
    These guys have been riding ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 07:15:58 PM EST
    ... the horse called Home O'Phobia at a gallop for quite a while, Howdy. That the animal would eventually collapse under their dead weight should really come as no surprise to anyone, save the riders themselves. And I think you know as well as I do that Gov. Asa Hutchinson has been one of the jockeys on this particular thoroughbred for years, even if he hasn't been one of the screamers.

    So, call me a skeptical cynic (or a cynical skeptic) if you must, but I see less sudden pangs of personal conscience on public display from ol' Hutch, than twinges of private panic at the prospects of experiencing a very public face-planting -- and on a national stage, no less.

    I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that absent the prior public outcry over the Indiana law, Hutchinson would have never returned that bill to your state legislature at all, let alone mind couple it with demands that legislators amend it to protect you and your gay brothers and sisters from public discrimination. If he was really all that concerned about your rights as a gay man, Howdy, he would've simply vetoed the measure and been done with it.

    But, nosirree, ol' Hutch can't do that without royally pi$$in' off all those white-wing beaus who took him to the prom in Little Rock, and want their piece now that the music's stopped playing and their back in the car.

    So, just like his buddy Mike Pence, he's simply trying to backpedal gently away from a political fiasco, by claiming that he's got a headache. Frankly, the man has defined himself as a primetime example of political cowardice in action, hiding behind his Democratic son while still batting his eyelashes coquettishly at the far right.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Your former governor is picking up the slack (none / 0) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:43:16 PM EST
    Mike Huckabee (R) said on Wednesday that gay-rights activists wouldn't be satisfied until there are no more churches or Christians in America.

    I think I would advise settling for less than that to get satisfaction.

    Parent

    News for The Huck... (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:51:10 PM EST
    many gay Christians have had to flee the hatred of the clergy and flock...they might come back if they felt welcome.

    Parent
    I'm not gay. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:34:19 PM EST
    But I have no issue with sentiment. Less churches and religion = a safer world.

    Parent
    Amen brother (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:36:02 PM EST
    testify!

    Parent
    I told Mike that (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:10:17 PM EST
    personally.  I was only speaking for myself. Jeez.

    Parent
    Arkansas Governor, Asa Hutchinson, (none / 0) (#47)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:13:58 PM EST
    signed a revised "religious liberty" law, modeled, supposedly, after the federal FRRA act.   That un-welcomed answer to a question that was not asked, hopefully, has been left behind.  

    Parent
    The Ice Tea thing (none / 0) (#40)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 03:51:31 PM EST
    For most people the ice tea acts like a diuretic. 16 glasses a day would be a big strain on the kidneys but he is probably diabetic and it was the 4 spoonfuls of sugar a glass that got him. Heh. Wonder if he got the idea from Uncle Si.


    Parent
    16 is a lot (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:15:53 PM EST
    i thnk a constant companion of an iced drink is, I think, a southern thing.  I personally am almost never out of reach of an iced beverage.  Sometimes tea.  Sometimes no calories flavored drinks spiked with real juice of some kind.  Never soda.  

    I don't think I have ever done 16 in a day.  But 5-8 is not unusual.

    Parent

    My Aunt was drinking 5 ro 8 (none / 0) (#87)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 02:03:52 AM EST
    She was complaining to me how badly her legs were cramping and she was having trouble walking. I explained that she was depleting the potassium in her body and getting dehydrated and thus the Charlie Horses. She changed to about 3 glasses a day and her legs recovered. I enjoy ice tea and usually order one when out dining. I believe the article said the guy was drinking black tea.

    Parent
    Sweet Iceb Tea (none / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:22:14 AM EST
    is the wine of the South.

    A 12 oz glass contains about 90 calories, about the same as "lite" beer, so 16 glasses is 1440 calories.

    I wonder how fat he was and does he have Type 2 diabetes.

    Parent

    Every place offers (none / 0) (#190)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:25:32 AM EST
    unsweetened tea.  I never drink sweet tea.  And I was recently told by a waitress that demand for that is going up and sweet tea is going down.

    So as usual you are a beat or two behind the parade.

    Parent

    The mayor of Little Rock (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 04:34:07 PM EST
    was on Maddow last night.
    It was an interesting interview.

    if you can deal with the site she also did a great segment on a development project underway in Little Rock that may have had more influence on the decision than WalMart.

    Speaking for myself only, Howdy, ... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 07:23:10 PM EST
    ... but I'm really starting to enjoy this particular vintage of Schadenfreude.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 05:31:13 PM EST
    no need to deal with the MSNBC site.  Turns out the whole thing is in that clip (the first link) at RealClearPolitics.
    I try not to worry much about the weather (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 09:05:30 PM EST
    but
    There's nasty stuff moving through southern MO northern AR.
    the were predicting tennis ball sized hail.  They are reporting baseball sized hail.
    8-P
    Tornado warnings all over the place.  Oh well.  Had to end sometime.

    Nixon's famous... (none / 0) (#83)
    by desertswine on Thu Apr 02, 2015 at 11:31:27 PM EST
    Western White House is up for sale.  And it's only 75mil.  

    There is another Cotton Point (none / 0) (#84)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:39:07 AM EST
    estate next door for sale for $8-9 million.  Steps from ocean.  Big, big house....Expansive grounds.  Underground garage for dozen or so cars.

    That is an absurd price for the Western White House.

    Parent

    Here is the (none / 0) (#85)
    by MKS on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:42:01 AM EST
    link to the house for sale next door to Western White House.

    Parent
    Next-door house 8900 sf, 0.9 acres. (none / 0) (#107)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:42:57 AM EST
    Nixon house 15,000+ sf, 5.45 acres.

    Even if you subdivided the Nixon property, I doubt you could make back your 75mil, so yea, I agree with you.

    Parent

    USA should do to ISIS directly now.. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Nankumota on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 01:49:48 AM EST
    Now, I think our US Army should take some actions directly on this hell ISIS guys like we did in Afghanistan a year back.

    This ISIS is going to end soon. What are they planning was hell. Fortunately we caught up them.

    Yeah. (5.00 / 4) (#89)
    by lentinel on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 06:33:20 AM EST
    Our little adventure in Afghanistan went real well didn't it?

    Let's do that everywhere!

    Parent

    Sure lets's (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by FlJoe on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:46:17 AM EST
    go back to Iraq then to Syria, then to Yemen, then to Somalia, then to Libya, then to Pakistan with "our" army. I hear the Kurds are accepting volunteers  when are you leaving?

    Parent
    The Red Road (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:08:37 AM EST
    Looking for something good on TV?  I highly recommend The Red Road.

    Of for no other reason to see what Khal Drogo can do besides grunt and look incredibly sexy.  Both of which he does in this series but it turns out he is a real actor.

    Oops (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:09:53 AM EST
    it started a new season last night but will no doubt repeat the first episode next Thursday.  Sundance.

    Parent
    He surely is all of those things... (none / 0) (#110)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:11:35 PM EST
    but I am going to be so maxed out on TV in the next couple of months...Mad Men and Wolf Hall start Sunday, then GoT next week, and I haven't started Bloodline yet!

    Parent
    Nugent blames Obama for suicides (none / 0) (#115)
    by Yman on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:30:03 PM EST
    Tells Republican audience that higher suicide rates among soldiers is because they are upset that Obama is violating the Constitution.

    Not sure how much more idiotic it gets than that ...

    Well, please let me show you how. (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 01:02:53 AM EST
    I blame Nugent and his d!ck-swinging music for discouraging people about the direction of rock'n'roll in the late '70s, and causing them to instead seek solace in disco.

    Parent
    Insofar as most Republicans (none / 0) (#118)
    by NYShooter on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 12:51:49 PM EST
    violate virtually all 929 chapters of the Bible, why couldn't an owner of a chain of restaurants, motels, etc. advertise:

    "Christians only welcome here; No Republicans"

    If "Deeply held belief" is the qualifying factor, this sign would be more honest, and more factually correct, than what they're doing in Indiana, Arkansas, and many other Red States.

    Job numbers (none / 0) (#131)
    by jbindc on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:05:55 PM EST
    Worst in 2 years at 126,000 jobs added in March.  Even January and February's numbers were revised downwards.

    But at least we have cheaper gas!

    This is making the rounds (none / 0) (#137)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 04:33:01 PM EST
    "A" or "B" for each question.

    1. My religious liberty is at risk because:

    A) I am not allowed to go to a religious service of my own choosing.
    B) Others are allowed to go to religious services of their own choosing.

    A) I am not allowed to marry the person I love legally, even though my religious community blesses my marriage.
    B) Some states refuse to enforce my own particular religious beliefs on marriage on those two guys in line down at the courthouse.

    A) I am being forced to use birth control.
    B) I am unable to force others to not use birth control.

    A) I am not allowed to pray privately.
    B) I am not allowed to force others to pray the prayers of my faith publicly.

    A) Being a member of my faith means that I can be bullied without legal recourse.
    B) I am no longer allowed to use my faith to bully gay kids with impunity.

    A) I am not allowed to purchase, read or possess religious books or material.
    B) Others are allowed to have access books, movies and websites that I do not like.

    A) My religious group is not allowed equal protection under the establishment clause.
    B) My religious group is not allowed to use public funds, buildings and resources as we would like, for whatever purposes we might like.

    A) Another religious group has been declared the official faith of my country.
    B) My own religious group is not given status as the official faith of my country.

    A) My religious community is not allowed to build a house of worship in my community.
    B) A religious community I do not like wants to build a house of worship in my community.

    A) I am not allowed to teach my children the creation stories of our faith at home.
    B) Public school science classes are teaching science.
    Reminds me of (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:19:23 PM EST
    "Do you still beat your wife?"

    a. Yes
    b. No


    Parent

    Continue (none / 0) (#175)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 09:41:19 PM EST
    to embrace your victimhood Jim.

    Parent
    I don't think there is any shortage of those (none / 0) (#177)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 11:45:54 PM EST
    who feel victimized in this thread...

    Parent
    Not sure if this is supposed to include me (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 08:25:13 AM EST
    but just in case I would like t make it clear that I'm nobodys victim.  I don't make a good victim.   Never have.   Big loud self centered overbearing people like me don't do well in that role.

    Lots of things I do well.  Victimhood ain't one.

    Parent

    The irony (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 08:50:11 AM EST
    is that Jim has been the one screaming about Sharia Law coming to America and then this comes along which is very similar to Sharia Law and he's okay with it.

    Just because you don't like discrimination and fight against it doesn't mean you're a "victim". Frankly as a white Christian female this is the kind of law that would give me "preferential" treatment but that doesn't make it right does it?

    Parent

    And exactly where do you (2.00 / 1) (#197)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 10:42:48 AM EST
    find me saying that I am "okay with it?" I mean, what ever "it" is. (Shades of Bubba and Monica!)

    Unless you have the ability to understand the other person's position and why they hold that position you will never be able to change them or have a positive relationship. In a comment above I stated the position/beliefs of many Christians that I know from personal experience. Try reading it and educating yourself.

    Now, I realize you are a very very partisan Democrat and I am willing to cut you a lot of slack. But continually making things up about me is very close to telling a lie. Please stop.

    Parent

    Yeah, it almost getting to the point (none / 0) (#181)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 07:26:27 AM EST
    where some Christians can't enforce their views on abortion, birth control, and homophobia on the general public like Jesus told them to do in the Bible.

    Boo-hoo.

    Parent

    How do you feel about this proposal? (none / 0) (#185)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:04:09 AM EST

    Republican Arizona Senator Sylvia Allen suggested this week that lawmakers should debate forcing people to attend church services once a week.

    Allen acknowledged such a law would never be allowed, but floated as an idea to create what she described as a much-needed "moral rebirth of this country."

    "How we get to back to a moral rebirth of this country, I don't know, since we are slowly eroding religion at every opportunity that we have," Allen said. "Probably we should be debating a bill requiring every American to attend a church of their choice on Sunday to see if we can get back to having a moral rebirth."

    Link

    Parent

    So (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:08:18 AM EST
    if its a "moral rebirth that will never be allowed" would that make it a moral abortion?

    Jesus.  These people are so fvcking nuts.  Piece of advise for her- she REALLY doesn't want to force me to attend church.   I would interrupt a lot.  I have many questions.

    Parent

    Interesting link between murder (none / 0) (#187)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:14:31 AM EST
    and church attendence :

    Church Attendance Rank

    Murder Rate

    #1 Louisiana

    twice the U.S. average

    #2 U.S. Bible Belt

    significantly higher than U.S. average

    #3 United States

    base line for comparison

    #4 Britain

    1/6 that of the United States

    #5  France

    1/7 that of the United States

    #6 Australia

    1/5 that of the United States

    #7 Sweden

    1/5 that of the United States

    #8 Japan

    1/5 that of the United States



    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#188)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 09:18:05 AM EST
    ive actually been to church a few times.  Honestly if I had to do it every week or God forbid twice a week I would probably have to kill someone.

    Parent
    Hillary campaign headquarters (none / 0) (#143)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 05:06:49 PM EST
    to be in Brooklyn

    Yes, and (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2015 at 07:07:58 PM EST
    she now has 2 weeks in which to announce she's running is what I have read.

    Parent
    How do they "know" that their (none / 0) (#207)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:26:02 AM EST
    heterosexual clients aren't just as guilty of different sins than the homosexuals they don't want to serve?

    If I opened up a business in TN and stated that I wouldn't sell to Christians because of my deeply held religious beliefs, you'd be crying for my scalp, and rightfully so.

    Uh, the difference (none / 0) (#209)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:35:52 AM EST
    is what???

    Since we don't have the "law," in front of us you really don't know about what you write.

    But my point was and remains, what we see here is a conflict between freedom of religion, and the right to follow its rules, and the right to be treated equally.

    Saying that is like Sharia is like saying a pin prick is like having your head cut off.

    BTW - If you will take the time to read what I wrote you won't find a place where I state my personal position.

    Think of a 3/4 spelling of assume.

    It would be helpful if Congress would pass a law that says gays can marry but that no minister/preacher/priest or any other religious official is required to perform the marriage ceremony.

    But that would be a too simple and commonsense thing to do and would probably not satisfy the extremists on either side.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#210)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:50:45 AM EST
    Since we don't have the "law," in front of us you really don't know about what you write.

    But my point was and remains, what we see here is a conflict between freedom of religion, and the right to follow its rules, and the right to be treated equally.

    1 Corinthians 6

    Settle Lawsuits among Believers

    1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
    2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
    4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
    5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
    6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

    7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

    9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and the spirit of our God.

     

    And as I pointed out in the excerpt from the (none / 0) (#211)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 11:58:56 AM EST
    HuffPo, that ministers of the Gospel or anything else are covered by the exemption for religious reasons.

    Nobody, AFAIKF, has come out for making religions of any sort having to marry gays  if that is against their religious beliefs.

    What we have here is the making of a non-problem by the folks who make up a danger to them because they have no other logical basis from which to oppose it.

    Yes, and we all know what happens when you assume, I'd rather be a body part/animal than engage in the illogical and specious reasoning that you seem to specialize in when it comes to this subject.

    this thread is now closed (none / 0) (#212)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 04, 2015 at 02:06:14 PM EST
    Our threads close at 200 comments. There's a new open thread up. Please avoid insults and name calling.

    Thursday Open Thread | 208 comments (208 topical)