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Sunday Open Thread

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    Leonard Nimoy's "Consilium" (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 06:25:15 PM EST
    showed his many talents.

    Our Preacher quoted this tonight as the framework of his sermon.

    Enjoy

    Years ago (none / 0) (#44)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 11:32:37 AM EST
    Laserium  at the Gates Planetarium had a presentation with Leonard Nimoy narrating "The Last Question".  

    It was wonderful.

    Parent

    I miss Denver (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:16:57 PM EST
    Unhappy news (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:19:00 PM EST
    I have been avoiding talking about this here.   My sister, my closest family, is very ill.  This has been going on for a while.  It's no longer one thing.  Its more things than I'm up to going into right now but I feel like I need to let people know what death traps hospitals are.  She has been in and out of the hospital for weeks.  Months really but intensely for weeks.  She just spent a couple of weeks in ICU.  
    The most recent problem has been a horrible staff infection she got in the hospital during her last surgery.  After the cancer and all the rest it may end up being the last straw.  So my brother in law just called me and told me they had taker her back to the hospital this afternoon because she had gotten much worse.  She apparently went to the bathroom and passed out, fell off the toilet and broker her arm.  And possibly hit her head.  They are not sure she is unresponsive but she has been most of the day.  They are doing a cat scan.
    The hospital has been so unbelievably bad.  He took her a couple of days ago and they would not keep her.  I had never heard of such a thing.

    Anyway, I would welcome your good thoughts and she would probably welcome your prayers.

    Dear Cap'n (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Peter G on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:27:17 PM EST
    So very sorry to hear this.  I hope it turns out not to be as bad as it sounds. It is clear that you are a very good person; I feel for you.

    Parent
    Thank you Peter (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:33:00 PM EST
    what a nice thing to say.  Maybe I needed to hear it.  Right now not feeling go good.  Like I should have spent more time with her the last few weeks.  Right now waiting for my nephew.  We are headed to the hospital.  
    But I appreciate the kind words.

    Parent
    Our thoughts (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Zorba on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:37:23 PM EST
    and prayers are with your sister, her husband and family and you.
    Sending positive energy to all of you.
    Namaste.

    Parent
    Don't beat yourself up. (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:21:14 AM EST
    You've spent your whole life being her brother; that love is what matters to her.

    Parent
    Thinking of you and your family. (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:36:16 PM EST
    Sorry about your troubles Capt... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by desertswine on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 08:41:35 PM EST
    Have courage and stay strong.  I'll be sending good thoughts your way.

    Parent
    Capt., you have become a good friend (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by fishcamp on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 08:53:06 PM EST
    and I'm very sorry to hear of these problems.  Hopefully she will get better. I'm very proud of your devotion to your family. It sounds like you are doing everything you can.  All the best.

    Parent
    My thoughts and prayers (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 08:57:39 PM EST
    are with you and your family, Capt.

    Parent
    It almost goes without saying that ... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:07:36 PM EST
    ... you certainly have mine, as does your sister.

    Me ke aloha pumehana.

    Parent

    Capt., first I want you to (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by caseyOR on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:23:43 PM EST
    know how very sad I am to hear about your sister. My heart goes out to you and your family.

    As some here know, a little over a year ago I came back to Illinois to take care of my sister who was dying of cancer. I learned a lot about hospitals and our health care system doing that.

    One of the most important is that someone from the family, someone who is not shy about asking questions, should be at the hospital with your sister at all times. My sister had excellent care, but my questions about an IV bag prompted the nurse to doublecheck and realize she had the wrong drug.

    Hospitals are rife with germs. They are big buildings filled with sick people after all. Still, the staff should be following a strict hand-washing protocol whenever they enter or leave a patient's room.

    It sounds like this hospital is not as responsive as your sister needs. Is there another hospital she could be taken to? And what does her doctor say about the treatment she is getting?

    Even though it is so hard to do, you really must be fierce in standing up for your sister and her well-being. The nurses are busy, perhaps too busy.

    I am so sorry you and your family are going through this. If there is anything I can do, or information I can provide, just holler.

    Parent

    My brother and I (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:26:50 AM EST
    have both tried to get her to try another facility.  All are at least 20 - 30 miles away.  And personally I'm not convinced the others would be that much better.  My brother who has spent a fair amount of time in them himself seems convinced they are.  But what are you gonna do.
    Thanks for the kind words and concern.

    Parent
    Captain, please know (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by KeysDan on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 02:03:41 PM EST
    that I join the good thoughts being expressed by TL colleagues.   Hospitals can be wonderful places in restoration from sickness to wellness, but they can also be dangerous places.

    A change of hospital is not always an easy one--it may require discharge by one and acceptance by another. And, health insurance plays into that decision.  Thinking through a change, includes, of course, the wishes of your sister. But also, the needs: sometimes the larger tertiary care institutions can offer better medical care, but less so in nursing care.  And, often the reverse in smaller, community hospitals.

    In any event, having a family member close by is important--to serve, in a sense, as a nursing care adjunct.  It is important, too, to be assertive on behalf of your sister with health professionals.  Many patients and their families understandably become confused by medical terms. Most hospitals are understaffed and may welcome inquiries and assistance.  

    Unlike the legal profession where it is said that the attorney who acts as his own lawyer has a fool as a client, in health care patients  (or their proxy) needs to serve as their own "physician."  Again, all good thoughts.

    Parent

    I'm SO SORRY to hear this (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by ZtoA on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:27:20 PM EST
    All my best wishes go with you and your family. You are so well loved here. I'm sure many prayers are with you and yours.

    Parent
    Thoughts and prayers (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Slado on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 11:34:39 PM EST
    I will keep her in my prayers.  

    As others have said if possible make sure a family member or friend is there with her to ask questions and make sure that all procedure, tests, drugs etc.... are explained to you in full and that the staff does as it says it will do and follows through.   Never feel embarrassed to ask why something is taking to long or why they've changed the way they do something.

    My 18 year s or being in and out of hospitals has taught me that the patient or someone represent int the patient is the one who ultimately decides the level of care they receive and is their best advocate.

    Good luck to her

    Parent

    Thanks Slado (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:04:55 AM EST
    i am watching Walking Dead.  Holy sh!t!  Is this the best season ever or what?  And could people who still think this is a series about zombies be more wrong?
    Carrol is now officially my favorite character.  How hilarious and amazing is her role playing in this episode?  Missing her husband (who's face she pulverized with a blunt object)?  Junior league?  I'm a real people person?  That blue sweater?
    Darrel may be right, she may look ridiculous but she is as always two plays ahead of everyone else.  I can't wait to see the face of whatever the threat is when they find out that this mouses helpless homemaker is in fact the most dangerous cold blooded guardian in the entire group.

    What's her name thinks "she is an excellent judge of people"
    Carrol played her like a Stradivarius.

    Parent

    So far easily best season (none / 0) (#79)
    by Slado on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:28:14 PM EST
    i am glad they are able to sustain the momentum of the program were they could easily have let it get silly or too horror movie like.  

    Instead they've focused on the people and how they are really the greatest threat to each other and the zombies have turned into a just another danger in a structures society.   They of course are still the most dangerous thing that is not human but crew does not wake up each day worrying about Walkers.  They wake up worried about who might have it out for them.

    Parent

    So very sorry (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:15:40 AM EST
    All hospitals are not operated equal.  So very sorry.

    Parent
    I am so sorry to hear this news, Capt. (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Anne on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:01:38 AM EST
    I am keeping all of you in my thoughts and prayers.

    I echo the comments of others who have suggested someone be with your sister at all times when she is in the hospital - the sad reality is that hospitals just do not have the staff to adequately care for patients, and those patients who have no one tend to get the least of anyone's attention.

    Also, when your sister is ready to be discharged, is there any possibility that she could take the interim step of some kind of rehab facility?  That might allow her a little extra time to kind of get her feet under her with supervision.  and if the end truly is near, hospice can be a godsend for everyone, whether in a facility or in-home.  

    One more thing: the past is the past.  What's important is what we do in the present, so do what your heart tells you is the right thing, say what you need to say, do what you need to do.

    Keep us posted.

    Parent

    So very sorry to hear this Capt (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by ruffian on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:20:33 AM EST
    It is sad that at our time of greatest need and distress, sometimes the hospitals just make things worse for patients and families. I have personally known one person whose mother died as a result of a hospital infection, and another whose daughter lost a leg. It is too horrifying for words.

    It is so hard to know what to do, and what the risks are of various forms of treatment. I'm close to my siblings too and really feel for your pain at this time. Here's hoping they get things under control so she has a long time left with her amazing brother.


    Parent

    The staff infections are really a problem (none / 0) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 09:37:40 PM EST
    Emory is very conscientious about clean hands before and after everything and everyone. Other hospitals have looser protocols.  I was recently reading that if they made bed rails and door knobs in the hospitals  of copper, it could really help cut down on the transfer of staff infections a lot.  Seems like such a simple thing to begin to implement.

    Parent
    Oh no, (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:02:06 PM EST
    I am so sorry to hear this. Your love for your family comes through even in your most frustrated comments, and in the end, that's all that matters.

    I send blessings to your sister, you and your entire family.

    Parent

    Wishing the best for her (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:29:13 PM EST
    You know Captain, you are one of my favorites on this site. I have a few but I can always count on you for a silly remark that lightens up a situation and makes me grin. Not to take away from your sister, but this year alone I was in the hospital for a week in Jan and a week in Feb and many times last year. This year it was for bleeding ulcers caused by regular medications meet over the counter drugs. Lost 3 pints of blood last time. Needed refill. But doing fine now. The interesting thing that I noticed in both hospitals is all the new equipment they got since Obamacare happened. Don't know if related or not but very impressive.  The thing is, each hospital around here is noted for specialties. They can all do the care but you know which one to go to for Cancer, Heart, ER, etc. It really does sound as if your sister is in the wrong hospital and 20 miles is nothing if a better hospital is available. So do ask around and if you want her transferred, then have it done. I am sending you my best prayers and hugs. A few years ago my boyfriend was getting radiation treatments for Cancer. 5 days in the hospital and weekends home. One Sunday he was heading off and this strong strong person grabbed me for a hug and said "Tell me I am going to be ok Barn Babe." That is when I realized how scared he was. He is in remission now so I know my hugs are good. Good luck too.

    Parent
    You are very kind (5.00 / 4) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:19:35 PM EST
    just got home.  Don't want to take this off the rails but she is mostly out of her head and talking.  To mom.  My mom who passed in 1979.  She has taked with her all afternoon.  They say she is stable. I'm going out with my nephew to get drunk.
    Thanks everyone.its helped more than I thought it would.
    Peace out

    Parent
    Oh Howdy, (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:40:07 PM EST
    I know how hard this is. I truly do.

    At first I had more to say, but my frame of reference is mine alone. So I'll just say that I hope you and your nephew find comfort, love and maybe -- if the Universe is kind -- some laughter as you imbibe together.

    Peace to you. And a toast to you all.

    Parent

    Oh, how upsetting that must have been; (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by Anne on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:47:05 PM EST
    we so much want the people we love to BE the people we love that it throws us when they aren't, and we don't know what it means - or if it means anything.

    On the other hand, I'd pretty much love to have a conversation or 20 with my dad, who died in 1989 - there are so many things I'd like his input on, things I want him to know in a way that feels like I'm actually telling him - if that makes sense...but I can see how that would completely flummox my family if I started doing it.

    Having suffered a stroke, maybe there are neurons and synapses firing in ways that are putting her in that long ago place, triggering memories and conversations that are now being played outside  of her head as if they were happening in the now instead of inside of it as memories.

    It hurts my heart to feel the fear and the pain in your writing; deep breaths, Captain, deep breaths.  Better to feel it, wrap your arms around your fear to quiet it, so you can feel the love.

    All good thoughts for your entire family; I'll keep you all in my prayers.

    Parent

    I wonder if your nephew will be hungry for the chili you always have in the fridge. :-)

    Parent
    Capt (none / 0) (#182)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:08:54 PM EST
    Let me echo Slado's comments that a family rep is one of the best things a patient can have in a hospital. And you seem to be one of the best.

    Parent
    Good thoughts and blessings (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by christinep on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:14:24 PM EST
    for you, your sister, and family.

    Spend and live as much time with your sister as you can, Captain.  You surely are a good brother ... and you will never regret being so.
    And, as others here have said, don't be shy about asking questions & watching & being there as much as you want; you won't get in the way; you will be your sister's essential advocate.

    Parent

    Sorry to hear about your sister (none / 0) (#11)
    by McBain on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:56:32 PM EST
    There's definitely something missing from our medical system/industry.  I've known some really good doctors and nurses but I've also seen/heard about hospitals doing some really dumb things.  

    Common sense and risk vs. reward aren't always applied when we need them the most. I had to make a life support decision on my father a few years ago and it was a struggle to get the information needed. Fortunately , one doctor and one nurse really helped put things in perspective.  I hope your family finds similar guidance.

    Parent

    Thoughts and prayer are with you, (none / 0) (#18)
    by Politalkix on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:07:45 PM EST
    Captain.

    Parent
    I am so (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:09:29 AM EST
    sorry Howdy. Prayers for peace for you and comfort for your sister.

    And yes, hospitals are not nice places. When I went through cancer I told everyone that being sent into the medical system in this country is like being put in the vortex of hell. Even though there were many caring nurses and doctors along the way there were also incompetent doctors who I had the misfortune of dealing with. So like everyone else has said make sure she's getting what she needs and don't be afraid to stand up to doctors, nurses or anyone else.

    Parent

    Done (none / 0) (#33)
    by jbindc on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:34:13 AM EST
    I know it's easy to say, but stay strong.  My thoughts and prayers are with you and her.

    Good vibes being sent out.

    Parent

    Thoughts and prayers, Capt. (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 11:43:47 AM EST
    Thoughts and prayers.

    Parent
    Hang in there, Capt (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 02:18:35 PM EST
    your sister's lucky to have a brother like you.

    Peace.

    Parent

    ... to Goodwin v. Loehmann, et al., the civil lawsuit filed by the family of slain 12-year-old Tamir Rice.

    One word: OY.

    In a locally televised press conference ... (none / 0) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:36:13 AM EST
    "To protect our defenses, we used words and phrased things in such a way that was very insensitive to the tragedy in general, and to the victim in particular. It is not part of the character of the city of Cleveland and this administration. We are apologizing to the family and to the citizens of Cleveland for our poor use of those words and our insensitivity."
    - Mayor Frank Jackson, press conference (March 2, 2015)

    ... this afternoon at Cleveland City Hall, Mayor Frank Jackson apologized publicly to Tamir Rice's family on behalf of the city for the demonizing language used by Barbara Langhenry, the city's Director of Law, in her office's official response to the family's complaint.

    At least it's a start.

    Parent

    "The Right's Fear of Education:" (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:13:59 AM EST
    What I learned as a (former) conservative military man.  Why are Republicans constantly bashing college these days? I was one of them -- and the answer may surprise you, by Edwin Lyngar, Salon

    Before college, I voted conservative, hated gay people, loved America and served my country in the armed services. I've changed because of many factors, but I know that college and graduate school made a difference. I met people unlike myself and was forced to defend sometimes ugly political positions. The Tea Party thrives on blue-collar "common sense" that is composed of a combination of ignorance, superstition and fear. A literate and educated populace is an existential threat to the kind of thoughtless rage that has consumed the right over the past few years.



    I grew up in a (mostly) GOP family, ... (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:51:44 PM EST
    ... with the exception of my maternal grandmother, who was a devout Roman Catholic and steadfast FDR liberal Democrat. On the other hand, my grandfather was a tepid Baptist at best, and most definitely a Republican of the Earl Warren camp, fiscally conservative yet socially progressive. As the GOP moved right under Ronald Reagan's leadership, he found himself openly supporting L.A. Mayor Tom Bradley's '82 and '86 campaigns for California governor, and deplored the malevolent spirit with which his party attempted to destroy Bill and Hillary Clinton.

    Both of my grandparents ultimately had a profound influence on me politically, because they taught me that the world is neither static nor black and white, but ever-evolving with many hues of color. They thought it generally pointless to rail in futility against the changing times in which they lived, and instead got actively involved in their community and worked hard to shape events positively to the extent possible.

    They both marched and worked for minority civil / voting rights and women's equality in the 1960s and '70s. And because my grandfather was a former longtime member of the city's board of education, they both strongly supported Pasadena's efforts to desegregate its public school system through mandatory bussing, even though their own son and son-in-law (and my grandfather's sister, a John Bircher) were squarely on the other side of that particular issue. It certainly made for some interesting and lively conversations at family gatherings, to say the least.

    In that regard, I'd like to believe that I'm every bit their grandson.

    Parent

    We really, really should (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by NYShooter on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:08:00 PM EST
    do something about the Right's debasing, and usurping the term, "Conservative." Just as we allowed them to gain great mileage out of the deliberatively deceptive term, "Death Panels," our acquiescence in their bumper sticker method of branding themselves does Democrats, and information-seeking citizens, generally, a huge disservice.

    Parent
    Democrats have allowed neo-cons ... (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:14:59 PM EST
    ... to repeatedly intimidate and bully them for the better part of three decades now. Speaking for myself only, I think one of the saddest and lowest moments in our modern political era was the 2004 presidential election, when John Kerry's service in the Vietnam War was unjustly maligned by GOP chickenhawks who themselves possessed too many multiple deferments from that conflict to even count. And our media allowed those scoundrels to get away with it, because Democrats -- Kerry included -- were too tepid in their response.

    How different might that election have turned out, had John Kerry just looked George W. Bush in the eye during one of their debates, and said to his face in national TV, "Mr. President, you are a gawdammed liar and a f---ing coward." Lord knows Bush would've deserved it, given all that swiftboating BS his campaign was busy disseminating about Kerry. But alas, sometimes we're too nice and polite for our own damned good.

    The ironic thing about the Vietnam era and the 2004 elections is that to this very day, we still don't really know where George W. Bush went, when he simply blew off his military obligations with the Texas Air National Guard in 1972 and just disappeared, after he was supposed to report to Alabama. Because wherever it was he went, it certainly wasn't where he was supposed to be at the time.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    True (none / 0) (#91)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:28:04 PM EST
    But the term "liberal" has also been debased. Not least by the prefix "neo-". There's little of the liberal in the neo-liberal.

    Parent
    I Think It Goes Beyond That (none / 0) (#42)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 11:13:08 AM EST
    I was pondering the great Scott Walker yesterday.

    The Koch brothers spent millions getting him elected, and a boatload more ensuring he wasn't recalled.  I was wonder why two people in California would spend that kind cash in Wisconsin.

    Cheap labor, not only are they ensuring the blue collar labor force is increased, they are waging war on unions.  All of that adds up to some very cheap blue collar workers.

    I live in Texas and work at corporate America.  Not sure I buy the colleges are converts of political parties.  All the politicians for the most part are college educated, so are the people contributing, or making the decisions to contribute the big dollars to political parties.  Is Fox News is not run by high school graduates.

    No real point other than the one anecdotal example above does not mean it's true throughout the country.  Unlike this example, I am also a military man, and have always been a liberal.  Not a democrat or Obama fan boy, but a liberal to the core.  And I can't imagine anyone every effecting that part of me in which I empathize with people.  I could never relate to bullies or people who think that force is the only way to solve problems.  And I will never, ever, blame the people who have nothing for all the ails the country while simultaneously refusing to help them.

    That being said, surely the number one thing learned in college, critical thinking, isn't doing the current day republican party any favors.  But then I remember even a genius fed false information isn't going to come as intelligent.

    Speaking of, this weekend was the rodeo cook-off in Houston,  I had the great pleasure of hanging out with a West Point graduate who currently works with a friend of mine.  I am told he has been demoted several times and the feeling is he will be gone as quickly as corporate American can get him out the door.

    He is a hardcore winger and I was told, at least 20 times, about how smart he is, by him.  Which was the core of his arguments, like Sheldon on Big Bang, it went something like I am am smarter than you, went to a better school, therefore I cannot be wrong.

    I mean seriously, how do you argue against that without mentioning that he is about to get canned from a cr@ppy low paying job.

    Parent

    The most recent (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 02:45:43 PM EST
    US president who did not earn a college degree was Harry Truman. Mr. Truman was born in 1884 and attendance at college, rather than going into the work force was more difficult in that era.  All though, Mr. Truman did attempt a commerce course and took, for a time, night-school law classes.  He took piano lessons into his teens and was self-taught in many subjects, such as history.

    Scott Walker was born in 1967, tried college for almost four years but left Marquette University without completing degree requirements.  in my view, in this day and age, without successfully completing a collegiate course of study and earning a college degree is a disqualification for the presidency.  A degree is necessary, but not sufficient, for the presidency,  But it is necessary.

    Parent

    I don't think a degree is necessary... (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:08:26 AM EST
    As you pointed out, every president since Truman has had one, and look at how that has turned out!

    A degree is no measure of critical thinking, intelligence, and perhaps most importantly for the office, imagination and leadership. I mean G-Dub "earned" one for heaven's sake...it's meaningless.

    Parent

    kdog: "A degree is no measure of critical thinking, intelligence, and perhaps most importantly for the office, imagination and leadership. I mean G-Dub 'earned' one for heaven's sake...it's meaningless."

    The world has grown five-fold in population since the turn of the 20th century, and has evolved exponentially in both its social complexities and its technological capacities. I expect my leaders to have the practical knowledge and experience to know how important it is to maintain parity with the times in which we live.

    There's a reason why Harry Truman was the last president to not have a college degree. First and foremost, from a political standpoint, he was the product of a (mostly) bygone era in American history, during which machine politics held sway throughout most of the country, and a relative handful of well-entrenched private interests determined who advanced in the arena and who didn't.

    Truman was a very loyal soldier in Tom Pendergast's Kansas City Democratic organization, and because that loyalty was eventually reciprocated by the boss, he rose through Missouri's political ranks accordingly.

    Harry Truman wasn't so much elected to the U.S. Senate in 1934, as he was chosen by state party bosses to run for what was essentially a safe seat for Democrats at the time. He was then chosen as the party's 1944 vice presidential nominee in much the same way, because FDR needed Missouri's electoral votes that year to help seal the deal.

    Despite only possessing a high school diploma, Truman also attended law school for two years at what is now the Univ. of Missouri-Kansas City, but dropped out when he lost his government job. It was merely the luck of the draw that our country ended up with someone of real quality like him in the White House upon FDR's death in April 1945, because given the criteria used by party bosses for selecting a running mate, we could have just as easily ended up with a real schlub.

    Further, it should also be noted that when Truman granduated from high school in 1901, the academic requirements for a diploma were generally much more rigorous than in the respective years when you and I graduated. Many of the basic courses required of college freshmen and sophomores today were actually taught 110 years ago at the high school level.

    Students back then didn't have many electives. Academically, you either swam or you sank, and relatively few people fulfilled all the requirements for a diploma. Nationwide, the high school graduation rate in 1900 was 6.7%. (Contrast that low rate with 50 years later, when 69.5% of all high school students enrolled in 1964 graduated.)

    Even 50 years ago, high school requirements throughout the country were still fairly basic. One took four years of English, four years of history / geography, two years each of math and science, and three or four years of physical education. freestanding electives included art, music, foreign language -- usually French, German and Spanish -- and in some locales, boys were further required one year of shop and the girls one year in home economics.  

    Fast forward to the present day, when over 80% of Americans have graduated from high school, yet well over half of them possess only grade school-level reading comprehension and math proficiency skills, and a further 10% of those graduates are functionally illiterate. I would therefore offer that it's actually the high school diploma which has been debased academically and rendered essentially meaningless, not the college degree.

    So, if you're willing to settle for a mere high school graduate as your president, the odds are much better than even that from a standpoint of quality, you'll get exactly what you're asking for -- probably without even realizing that you were asking for it.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Didn't Dubya have two? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:17:15 AM EST
    Dear lord... (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:47:15 AM EST
    Maybe we should make it an automatic disqualification instead of a necessary qualification! ;)

    Seriously though...our education system teaches "in the box", it indoctrinates as well as educates, by nature limiting imaginative new approaches and ideas.  It teaches you how to "play the game" the way entrenched power structures want it played.

    An ideal president, imho, would be someone so brilliant and insightful they got hip to the con young, and perhaps didn't even finish high school, never mind college.  

    Then again, somebody that smart would not want the job.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#132)
    by Zorba on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:42:35 AM EST
    He had a B.A. from Yale and an M.B.A. from Harvard Business School.

    Parent
    It's just sad (none / 0) (#159)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:59:00 PM EST
    Probably sadder (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Zorba on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 03:14:31 PM EST
    for Yale and Harvard to be associated with him.  It doesn't speak well of those universities.   ;-)

    Parent
    I Agree... (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:34:12 PM EST
    ...how many jobs in the US with leadership and managing skills require a degree, nearly all.  It's a college degree, not the fricken Nobel Peace Prize.  It ain't that hard to get and at the very least shows you can commit to something for 4 or 5 years.

    High school graduates should not be running the country, or is that not needed either, can 8th drop-outs have access to launch codes so long as they fool ~half the voting population ?

    And kdog, do you really think that education is the problem with the country, that we have too much of it ?  Just because the country is in the cr@pper, and recent Presidents have degrees, it does not mean that the degree is the problem.  Just like it doesn't mean men or people over 50 are the problem.  

    While one could argue for all three, it doesn't make it so.

    Parent

    No that we have too much... (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:29:19 PM EST
    "education", whatever that really means...but how we educate, and our lame ways of measuring it.  Not enough critical thinking and imagination skills being taught, too much teaching to pass a stupid standardized test for K-12.  College is a little better in regards to critical thinking, depends on the field of study, but it's still fairly easy to skate and not learn a damn thing of value (sciences excluded), to get the piece of paper that says you are "educated" and can now make more money.  Before I dropped out, I was a skater...getting my B's without even really trying, and educating myself in my free time.  Till I decided, why pay tuition for a piece of paper when I'm educating myself and learning more from life outside of class?  Sh*t I only enrolled at all to appease the expectations of my parents and society.  I sure as hell didn't enroll to learn anything.

    Seems like you're saying an 8th grade drop-out must be stupid and can't be trusted with launch codes, and a college graduate must be smart and can be trusted with launch codes.  I must disagree...an 8th grade drop out can be brilliant, a college grad can be a functional idiot.  It's a terrible indicator of intelligence, and also a terrible indicator as to who would be an excellent president.

    And if the "commitment" to finish college is some kind of presidential qualification, that's also lost on me.  Seems more like a lack of imagination, just doing what society expects of you...going along to get along.  

    Which may be the worst quality a president can have, btw...going along to get along.

    Just my opinion of course, other's experiences with the American education system will surely differ.  But for damn sure the last thing I'm gonna look at when deciding on who to vote for is where they went to school or what degrees that have.  Sh*t it's the last thing I'd look at when hiring anybody for anything...even a doctor.

    Parent

    And Walker (none / 0) (#196)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:55:59 PM EST
    Quit school in his last semester, I believe to go work on a campaign.  He was just a few credits away from graduating.  Why  didn't he go back at some point?

    Parent
    A little overtaken (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:42:49 AM EST
    by all the kind words and thoughts.  Please know they are deeply felt.  

    As for watching the watchers (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:55:58 AM EST
    yeah.  Enough experience with hospitals in this family that is a given.  Its starting to look like this is the job my niece, my sisters daughter who I have often-maybe to often-dismissed as a hopeless and worthless prescription drug addict, was born to do.  Having spent a lot of time in them herself she knows the drill and is a harsh taskmaster.  I would not have wanted to be the person duty when she arrived last night after my sister fell and broker her arm..

    Parent
    We each come bearing gifts (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:39:18 AM EST
    And will be given opportunities to use them and shine in the darkness.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 11:18:30 AM EST
    just got a call.   Apparently she has had a stroke.   Headed back.  Keep us in your thoughts when you can.

    Parent
    Oh, Capt, I'm so sorry for this situation. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Angel on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 05:39:10 PM EST
    Know that I'm thinking of your sister, you and the rest of the family.  

    Sending lots of love your way.

    Parent

    will do (none / 0) (#53)
    by Reconstructionist on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:38:44 PM EST
    You are there! (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    you got it Howdy. cyber hug going out your way (none / 0) (#61)
    by ruffian on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:20:05 PM EST
    Late with the love... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:42:11 PM EST
    but I wish you and your sister the best Cap.

    Parent
    The best sendoff for Leonard Nimoy (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by jbindc on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:37:02 AM EST
    There is something (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:50:19 PM EST
    so poignant about that.

    Parent
    Thank you, jbindc (none / 0) (#87)
    by christinep on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 06:46:18 PM EST
    The effect of that salute at this time from the International Space Station ... moving and eye-watering.

    Parent
    Lettuce Pray (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by KeysDan on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:08:55 PM EST
    The Reverend Pat Robertson says "...people are enslaved to vegetables."   Cocaine is a product of a vegetable and marijuana is a vegetable, but he can free you.

    I am torn as to who is my favorite Republican Robertson, Pat or Phil.

    Mine Is... (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:42:57 PM EST
    ...Mr. I got a snowball, therefore Global Warming is a myth, Inhofe.

    Every winter this clown is out their with the same non-sense, but not a peep in the summer, when you know, places like Oklahoma are really hot.

    And his first name is Jim...

    Parent

    Yes, Jim is a Republican natural (none / 0) (#80)
    by KeysDan on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:31:57 PM EST
    for Chair of the Senate Committee on Environment.  

    Parent
    Fruit or Vegetable? (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:22:59 AM EST
    Marijuana, in it's unmodified natural form, has seeds...wouldn't that make it God's Fruit?  ;)

    Regardless, this passage goes out to the old con man Pat...

    Genesis 1.29
    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food

    The big man has spoken! "Food" certainly includes spiritual nourishment.

    Omnibus, he rides the bus, she rides the bus.  We all ride the bus.

    Parent

    Spring Training! (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 05:18:52 AM EST
    As a lifelong Tigers fan, I always remember Hall of Fame broadcaster Ernie Harwell on this day.  He would open the broadcast of the first game of Spring Training with a quote from the Song of Solomon, then add "Happy New Year!  Let's play ball!"

    Spring is here!  Now let's hope the weather gets the memo.

    Armed and dangerous (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 06:30:12 PM EST
    O'Reilly lying in his own words (none / 0) (#3)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 06:49:30 PM EST
    Remember when O'Leilly claimed he was directly outside the home of George de Mohrenschildt when he shot himself and heard the shotgun blast?  Not only have his co-worker's challenged the claim, but now comes a recording showing O'Reilly was lying - in his own words.

    Feh (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:08:17 PM EST
    Fox has no ethics or standards so what else is new? They've got a great operation fleecing the rubes and convincing conservatives that they are all victims. Nothing is going to happen to O'Reilly other than even more people are going to think he's a joke and conservatives are going to waste their time making excuses for him.

    Parent
    There are plenty of conservatives who don't like (none / 0) (#10)
    by McBain on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 07:44:08 PM EST
    O'Reilly.  I usually watch the first 10 minutes of his show and then get bored.  I don't find him or Fox news any worse than the other cable news networks.  

    Parent
    Then why even watch 10 minutes of him? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:03:52 PM EST
    Growing up in L.A., I had to listen to noted local gasbag George Putnam. Throughtout the 1960s and early '70s, he was the most popular news anchor in the Southern California market -- at least, he was until 1975, when he threw a tantrum with station management and his TV career basically imploded. From there, he went directly to right-wing talk radio, where he was a local fixture on L.A.'s AM airwaves until his death in 2008 at age 94.

    With his resonant baritone voice, Putnam also narrated and starred in the once-shrill but now-kitschy 1965 documentary-diatribe "Perversion for Profit," which seeks to inform Americans about the twin perils of p*rn*gr@phy and "sexual deviancy."

    I dare anyone here to try to keep a straight face when Putnam stares directly into the camera and warns the audience that "[t]his moral decay weakens our resistance to the onslaught of the Communist masters of deceit."

    The late Ted Knight, who played the pompous bubblehead Ted Baxter on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show," admitted years after the series ended that George Putnam provided his initial inspiration for the fictional WJM-TV anchor. Of course, most everyone in L.A. had already long suspected that.

    Personally, I think that Putnam was likely Bill O'Reilly's muse, too.

    Parent

    Because I like the first 10 minutes (none / 0) (#25)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:13:32 AM EST
    He does his talking points then brings someone out to agree or disagree with him.  I also like his Fridays With Geraldo segment.  He and Geraldo usually disagree but it seems geniune, not just two talking heads up there to debate purely for the sake of ratings. It's the middle segments that bore me.

    I'm not a big fan of the Waters World segment.  Nothing against Jesse Watters but it's such an obvious attempt to ring in the younger demographic that the aging O'Reilly can't connect with.

    Often, the last 10 minutes of Hannity are fun, especially when he does his all star panel thing.... not to be confused with his full panel shows which are usually unwatchable.  

    Parent

    Then you're an O'Reilly fan. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 02:11:02 AM EST
    And that's fine. There was really no need on your part to hint otherwise as you did earlier, unless you're ashamed to admit so in our presence, which you shouldn't be. If you enjoy listening to him, who are we to demean you for it?

    I just want you to know that it's not something you have to hide from the likes of me. You certainly needn't ever apologize for what O'Reilly says and does regarding his career embellishments. After all, he's the one who's said these things, not you. If anyone's to apologize, it should be him to you and the rest of his audience.

    Given my previous comments, it's rather obvious that I'm not exactly enamored with O'Reilly -- or with Geraldo Rivera and Sean Hannity, too, for that matter. But I'll also be the first to admit that Fox News has quite the loyal following. And that's okay, because were we to all like and believe the same things, TL would be an extraordinarily boring blog.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    If you really need to know, Donald (none / 0) (#45)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 11:35:30 AM EST
    I'm more a fan of the show The O'Reilly Factor than I am of the man Bill O'Reilly.   I have the opposite opinion of Sean Hannity and his show.

    "There was really no need on your part to hint otherwise as you did earlier, unless you're ashamed to admit so in our presence, which you shouldn't be. If you enjoy listening to him, who are we to demean you for it?"

    That's funny for so many reasons.  Sometimes you make good points, sometimes you're more comic relief.  

     

    Parent

    ... that you somehow have an open mind, even as you ultimately fly home to roost politically with the far-right wingbats every single time, regardless of whatever issue is at hand.

    Watching you hike that tortured path to its highly predictable conclusion may not exactly be comedy gold, but it's amusing at times to watch nonetheless. Personally, I've never bothered to hide who I am politically. Nor will I ever maintain some silly pretense that a wingbat's fact-free perspective is a perfectly valid POV, when it's clearly nothing more than a grand exercise in perpetual self-delusion on his or her part.

    Bill O'Reilly lied to you and your fellow Fox News aficionados every time he made all these extravagant and false claims about being at Ground Zero for all these events, when the evidence clearly shows otherwise. Further, he continues to lie to you every time he tries to deflect the public discussion away from his own standing duplicity in this self-festering matter. In that regard, your continued viewership is that of an unquestioning enabler, which in itself is really nothing more than a form of mental masturbation.

    If watching O'Reilly, Hannity and the Fox News Blondes is how you wish to be informed about the country and world in which you live, that's entirely your business. But as Steven Colbert once told George W. Bush, et al., to their faces, "reality has a liberal bias." You should therefore seriously disabuse yourself of the notion that inhabiting your particular parallel universe somehow renders you my equal in public policy discussions. You aren't even close.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I'm going to watch what I'm going to watch (none / 0) (#83)
    by McBain on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 05:11:56 PM EST
    and I'm going to state my opinions when I feel like it.  If it bothers you that I don't always take a 100% conservative veiw point, that's your problem.  I call each issue as I see it.    

    "You should therefore seriously disabuse yourself of the notion that inhabiting your particular parallel universe somehow renders you my equal in public policy discussions. You aren't even close."

    I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm guessing you're on your high horse again? I love those long winded lectures.

    Parent

    Thanks for the laugh (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:21:01 PM EST
    If it bothers you that I don't always take a 100% conservative veiw point
    Your reading comprehension is as stereotypical as your views. Donald's ride on Silver, notwithstanding.

    Parent
    I look at O'Reilly like I looked at Larry King (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:36:27 PM EST
    Sometimes I enjoyed and watched. Sometimes I didn't and flipped him off. Both have huge egos and both are...... entertainers....when O'Reilly ceases to entertain he will be gone.

    And that's the elephant in the room. Brian Williams was a hard news reporter. O'Reilly is not. And the respective audiences understand that.

    Parent

    Sory (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:48:33 PM EST
    but O'Reilly bills himself as newsperson. King billed himself as an inteviewer The fact that you can't tell the difference doesn't mean anything.

    Parent
    So did Williams (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:54:12 PM EST
    And your point is????

    BTW - Does the Rev Al do a disclaimer??

    "I haven't paid my taxes and this isn't a news show?"

    Everyone watching O'Reilly and Sharpton and Hannity and Madow, etc., know they are opinion shows.

    Parent

    The point (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    is silly that Williams and O'Reilly are both billing themsevles as reporters but that apparently O'Reilly lying and making up stories for his viewers and reporting them as "news" is just fine with you while Williams doing it was not okay.

    The tea party is making sure that Al doesn't have to pay his taxes so why are you complaining about that when you support that agenda?

    Parent

    Voicing "opinions" does not ... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 06:22:43 PM EST
    ... give you a license to lie, and O'Reilly was a journalist when filed those reports.  The lies started after he joined Fox.

    Parent
    Axis Sally and Tokyo Rose (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:09:05 PM EST
    were "entertainers" by the Reich's er.. the Right's definition..

    And I'm sure you would've called Father Coughlin an entertainer..

    In reality, what they all were, and what O'Reilly' Limbaugh, Hannity, and Beck are is propagandists/"entertainers".

    Parent

    Let's not forget "Lord Haw-Haw," ... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:12:17 PM EST
    ... which was the Allies' on-air pseudonym for William Joyce, arguably the most well-known of the Axis radio propagandists during the Second World War.

    Joyce, a U.S.-born British citizen raised in Ireland, was a teenaged snitch to British forces regarding IRA activities during the Anglo-Irish War (1919-22). He and his family, Irish Catholics who had remained loyal to the Crown, moved to London in the wake of Irish independence. A devout anti-Semite, William eventually gravitated to and became a member of Sir Oswald Moseley's British Union of Fascists.

    As relations between the British Empire and Nazi Germany rapidly deteriorated in late summer of 1939 over the then-looming German invasion of Poland, Joyce and his wife Margaret -- who was also a staunch fascist -- fled England to avoid their political internment. They quickly made their way to the Third Reich, whch granted them both citizenship in May 1940. The Reich Ministry of Entertainment and Propaganda soon made efficient use of this convenient and all-too-willing tool.

    People in Great Britain, and also across the Atlantic in Canada and the United States (via short-wave radio), would regularly listen to Joyce's near-nightly propaganda broadcasts, because they often provided the only information that was available regarding Allied soldiers and airmen who might have been captured and were possibly being held behind enemy lines. "Lord Haw-Haw" would regularly read the names of Allied POWs aloud on the air, imploring his listeners to pressure their respective governments to seek peace with the Third Reich so that their loved ones could come home.

    When the British 2nd Army overran Hamburg in May 1945, William Joyce was personally (and quite ironically) taken into custody by Lt. Geoffrey Perry, who as a child had been a Jewish refugee from Germany formerly known as Horst Pinschewer. Following his recovery from gunshot wounds incurred during his capture, "Lord Haw-Haw" was quickly repatriated against his will to Britain, where he was formally indicted in September 1945 with high treason against the Crown, a charge which carried a mandatory death sentence upon conviction.

    Joyce was quickly convicted after a three-day trial, and after several perfunctory appeals were rejected in turn, he was subsequently hanged at London's Wandsworth Prison on the morning of January 3, 1946. He remained thoroughly unrepentant about his anti-Semitic and Nazi sympathies to the very end and quite fittingly, his last words were reportedly:

    "In death as in life, I defy the Jews who caused this last war, and I defy the powers of darkness which they represent."

    "Lord Haw-Haw" remains the very last person to ever be executed for high treason in the United Kingdom.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    So Bill is Under no Obligation... (none / 0) (#62)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:24:08 PM EST
    ...to tell the truth even though he thoroughly discusses current events on a news channel ?

    OK, that doesn't sound like partisan hackery.  Man that is desperate, rather simply accepting the truth, you are willing to call your news station an employer of entertainers.  

    I concur as much as one human being can.  Think they even won a lawsuit using the notion that they aren't providing news, but entertainment.

    Certainly explains take on Global Warming.

    Parent

    Jim's just being entertaining (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 01:34:16 PM EST
    when he says O'Reilly's just an entertainer..

    Not all comedians are good.

    Parent

    ... (what should be) the annual Rupert Pupkin Award.

    Parent
    Remember the "tides" mystery? (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 10:52:56 AM EST
    [Billo explaining why he is a Christian]

    "I'll tell you why it's not a scam. In my opinion, all right? Tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can't explain that. You can explain why the tide goes in..."

    Quick question: do you know the mechanism that operates the tides?

    How can you listen to a single sentence from a guy whose stupidity is a matter of public record?  What is it about stupidity that you admire?

    Parent

    IMO (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 11:57:00 AM EST
    conservatives are desperate for someone to admire so they will latch onto a lot of less than admirable people who call themsevles conservatives.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:14:57 PM EST
    Let's see the whole quote rather than some words that may, or may not, be out of context or an obvious misspeak.

    et al - As long as the Rev Al is on MSNBC I don't see how you can talk about Conservatives... At least O'Reilly pays his taxes.


    Parent

    Be my guest (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:00:07 PM EST
    Let's see the whole quote rather than some words that may, or may not, be out of context or an obvious misspeak.

    Hard to imagine how much context is required when  guy says the tides are a mystery that no one can explain.  But I did the search for you, here is the link, in context.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3AFMe2OQY

    Thousands of years ago fishermen knew that the tides and the moon were synchronized, even if they didn't know the mechanism.  Bill O'Reilly knows less about the tides than an illiterate fisherman 3000 years ago knew.

    Now that you have "context," tell me this guy isn't stupid on steroids.

    Parent

    et al, sorry to be late (2.00 / 1) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:01:16 PM EST
    Repack, thank you. I watched the video and my take on it is this.

    What we have here is a conversation by an atheist who has volunteered to be a victim of O'Reilly's scorn. As part of the discussion O'Reilly says, "Tide goes in. Tide goes out." And then he adds that the atheist can't explain that. And he  doesn't although this  link gives a very good explanation of how to measure and the theory.

    ".....The Theory of General Relativity has adapted as new technologies and new evidence have expanded our view of the universe."
    " So when we are scientifically discussing gravity, we can talk about the law that describes the attraction between two objects, and we can also talk about the theory that describes why the objects attract each other."

    O'Reilly's point, when taken in context is you can measure but you can't explain the theory without acknowledging that "something/something created everything. Christians say God did. Your partial quote left that out because it weakens your attack on O'Reilly.  And if you want to claim that a belief in God makes people stupid, be my guest.

    Scott, sorry but sometimes life interferes with my blogging. But I see that you didn't respond to my pointing out your inconsistency regarding "hackery."

    Donald, I am so sorry to have hurt your feelings. Please accept my apologies and reward us with such 200 word posts on such important information as Lord Haw Haw and George Putnman... The things I do learn.

    Yman, no. But I do want links to the sources.  And I didn't ask jondee for his source. In fact I didn't dispute it in anyway. So why are you rushing in where most would not go? Just have to snark, eh??

    Mordiggan  a theory is a theory is a theory. Let us know when MMGW meets the requirement of being a Scientific Theory. Now it is a "small t" theory. You are welcome to accept it on faith just as O'Reilly and I accept God on faith. In the meantime we've got more "global sleet and ....oopps! I meant...warming on the way.

    BTW - The consensus last week said that today be fair.

    Parent

    Belief in God makes people stupid (none / 0) (#202)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 03:27:23 PM EST
    when the God is just an invisible, all-encompassing version of Roger Ailes..

    And If the belief in a certain facsimile of God - who holds "secular" knowledge in low esteem - doesn't contribute to making people stupid or ignorant, how else to account for the aggregate lower I.Q numbers and educational standards in Red America?

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:59:33 PM EST
    He recently said Christianity isn't a religion -- in an incredibly inept and inane attempt at skirting the issue of the Right attempting to use government to promote their favorite religion..

    And please DO look up the entire quote.

    And yes, no doubt O'Reilly "pays his taxes" as conscientiously as so many other conservative one percenters pay their taxes; by utilizing as many loopholes, shelters, and offshore accounts as possible.

    Parent

    I am not questioning what he recently said about (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:31:35 PM EST
    religion. I'd just like to see the complete quote that Repack posted.

    BTW - I Googled part of the quote and got a Wiki site that used another site by an atheist who had dozens of partial quotes.

    I remain unimpressed.

    Donald, what McBain said:

    That's funny for so many reasons.  Sometimes you make good points, sometimes you're more comic relief.  

    Except I'd make that 1%-99%.

    GA, no. I said that O'Reilly is an entertainer. You say that O'Reilly bills his show as news program. Of course anyone watching O'Reilly immediately knows it is an opinion show...and it is the Bill O'Reilly show. Not the Bill O'Reilly News Show.

    NBC News bills itself as NBC News.

    Scott, yes. O'Reilly discusses current news. So do the folks on CNN and MSNBC. What should happen is that the channels label the opinion shows opinion.

    But they don't. So hackery is hackery unless it is hackery about your pet network.

    I'm done here, Scott. Gotta go get ready for some more of that Global Warming that's coming tomorrow night.

    Parent

    It's not so much that you can't handle the truth, because that would require you to first know and recognize it.

    Have a nice trip back to Stepford.

    Parent

    Suddenly YOU want full quotes? (none / 0) (#102)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 09:28:24 PM EST
    The guy who constantly uses clipped quotes and outright misstatements/"quotes" with sections omitted?!?

    (Laughing so hard my stomach hurts ...)

    Parent

    The quote is very easy to find (none / 0) (#104)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 09:39:29 PM EST
    O'Reilly insisted that Christmas displays in public buildings were not a constitutional issue because Christianity is not a religion.

    "It is a fact that Christianity is not a religion, it is a philosophy," the Fox News host declared confidently. "If the government was saying that the Methodist religion deserves a special place in the public square, I would be on your side."

    BTW - Hosting an opinion show on a news channel does not give the host the right to lie, as O'Reilly has done repeatedly.  But at least you've given up your silly defense of O'Reilly's "combat" reporting, now that it's been debunked by his own report.  Nice try switching to the "entertainer" defense.

    Heh.

    Parent

    HOT DAMN (none / 0) (#112)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:00:56 AM EST
    I have never seen Jim exit so fast or declare he will be gone for an entire day.

    He does not know what to do, even his favorite network has acknowledged the lies, but Jim just can't bring himself to admit O'Reilly lied to his viewers, including Jim.

    Reminds me of THIS.

    Parent

    He reminds me of Sir Robin (none / 0) (#125)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:57:09 AM EST
    in Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

    Minstrel: [singing] Brave Sir Robin ran away...
    Sir Robin: No!
    Minstrel: [singing] bravely ran away away...
    Sir Robin: I didn't!
    Minstrel: [singing] When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
    Sir Robin: I never did!
    Minstrel: [singing] Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about, and valiantly, he chickened out.
    Sir Robin: Oh, you liars!
    Minstrel: [singing] Bravely taking to his feet, he beat a very brave retreat. A brave retreat by brave Sir Robin.

    Here's a soupçon of more science behind AGW to study as well:

    Scientists have observed an increase in carbon dioxide's greenhouse effect at Earth's surface for the first time. The researchers, led by scientists from the US Department of Energy's Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab), measured atmospheric carbon dioxide's increasing capacity to absorb thermal radiation emitted from Earth's surface over an 11-year period at two locations in North America. They attributed this upward trend to rising CO2 levels from fossil fuel emissions.



    Parent
    O'Reilly's/Fox's base are conservatives (none / 0) (#19)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:20:25 PM EST
    The fact that you personally don't like him or find him or Fox any worse than the other cable news networks is irrelevant.  69% of O'Reilly's viewers are conservative (16% moderate, 8% liberal).  The only other "news" audiences with a higher percentage of conservative viewers are Limbaugh (71%) and Hannity (78%).

    Parent
    Link (none / 0) (#20)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 09:22:08 PM EST
    City of Cleveland vs. Tamir Rice family (none / 0) (#12)
    by McBain on Sun Mar 01, 2015 at 08:03:27 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/plxk5fx

    I haven't been following this case lately, is there going to be any kind of grand jury for a possible criminal trial?  I'm glad there's a civil case... I think we'll get more answers that way.  

    Four-plus decades later, ... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 02:38:12 AM EST
    ... the State of New York still can't get Attica right.

    That makes my heart hurt (none / 0) (#49)
    by sj on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 12:10:09 PM EST
    Good article... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:24:34 AM EST
    Thanks Donald.  Attica should be condemned.  

    Parent
    It would be great, for many reasons, (none / 0) (#70)
    by KeysDan on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:21:59 PM EST
    if a breakthrough announcement came tomorrow indicating that a deal was made with Iran on its nuclear program.  Or, a breaking news flash that President Obama was "informally" meeting tomorrow morning with Raul Castro at the Truman Little White House in Key West to discuss the next steps in restoring relationships between the US and Cuba.

    If Castro and Obama meet (none / 0) (#160)
    by fishcamp on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:59:11 PM EST
    down by you or any other place in the world I nominate you as the moderator KeysDan,

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#166)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:07:05 PM EST
    if duty calls.

    Parent
    FOX walking back support of O'Lielly (none / 0) (#71)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:24:52 PM EST
    Channel admits O'Reilly did not witness bombings in Northern Ireland or murders in El Salvador in wake of questions over TV host's reporting experiences

    If nothing else, this could give a new crap-artist a chance to stretch the truth...

    Speaking of... (none / 0) (#75)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 03:46:57 PM EST
    ...what happened to Glenn Beck ?

    Parent
    I guess (none / 0) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:04:12 PM EST
    there is at some point someone who can become too much of an embarassment to Fox News and that is what Glenn Beck and his rabid conspiracy theories became.

    Parent
    Glenn Beck is still on the AM airwaves, ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 04:42:55 PM EST
    ... peddling absurd conspiracy theories while simultaneously fleecing his own listeners with bait-and-switch schemes such as the one offered by Goldline.

    Parent
    O'Reilly's original Buenos Aires report (none / 0) (#86)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 06:34:09 PM EST
    Uncovered by Mother Jones.  

    This was his version of "combat" with the military shooting down civilians in the streets.  Of course, in the original report O'Reilly made no mention of live ammunition or deaths.  He mentions police firing tear gas and rushing the crowd." He notes "some journalists" got hurt, but describes the incident as a "disturbance" and does not mention anyone dying.

    ... must've really been scary. "Oh my God! Look out! They're throwing coins and confetti!"

    Parent
    Baa waa waa. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 07:40:24 PM EST
    This is actually getting more hysterical by the day.

    Parent
    Seriously funny, but you're right (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 09:17:26 PM EST
    He'll just ride it out and there will be no consequences for him.  Conservatives will demand Brian William's head while claiming O'Reilly is a victim of a witchhunt - or, their latest tack - he's a commentator and not a journalist.  As if there was ever any doubt about that - and as though it gives him a license to lie.

    Parent
    Sen Warren, watch your back! (none / 0) (#96)
    by Politalkix on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:02:52 PM EST
    Oh good (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:11:19 PM EST
    grief. Some D's disagree with Warren but they have respect for her. I think you're getting overwrought for nothing.

    Parent
    Oh noooooooooooo! (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 09:23:41 PM EST
    A gossip piece suggesting "moderate Democrats" are going after Warren!

    (gasp!)

    What could your motive be in posting that?

    Heh, heh, heh ...

    Do you seriously believe you're anything but 100% transparent?

    Parent

    It is a gossip piece...as you must know (none / 0) (#99)
    by christinep on Mon Mar 02, 2015 at 08:52:31 PM EST
    Barbara Mikulski to retire (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 08:48:04 AM EST
    And I will be (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Zorba on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:44:41 AM EST
    very sorry to lose her as my Senator.  

    Parent
    Bibi will address us all in an hour (none / 0) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:02:17 AM EST
    And CNN will be broadcasting the speech. News off

    Hillary Using Her Personnal Email... (none / 0) (#115)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:12:42 AM EST
    ...account while SoS.
    Hillary Rodham Clinton exclusively used a personal email account to conduct government business as secretary of state, State Department officials said, and may have violated federal requirements that officials' correspondence be retained as part of the agency's record.

    Mrs. Clinton did not have a government email address during her four-year tenure at the State Department. Her aides took no actions to have her personal emails preserved on department servers at the time, as required by the Federal Records Act.


    LINK


    Given the reports of hacked government (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by christinep on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:44:07 AM EST
    departments' email these past years, well .... might have been a wise thing to do.  We'll see. I'm sure--as the usual bunch of Repubs looking for anything (anything) on Clinton--that this is something in search of a scandal.  But, since no one is writing any this-is-a-clear-violation-of-thus & so, I'm guessing there will eventually be one side and the other in terms of whys & wherefores. We'll see if this is a definition of a kerfuffle or more eventually.

    BTW, Jeb Bush--as Governor, etc.--also used his private email always.  He released those emails for the public only several weeks ago.  I'm guessing Clinton will release those emails involving State Department business that are releasable under FOIA.  Meanwhile, there will be talk and column space devoted to it and all that ... and, day will follow day.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#124)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:52:02 AM EST
    Her personal email was (and is) not secure, so it seems like a big gamble to take.

    See:  David Patreus and gmail.

    Parent

    David Petraeus, (none / 0) (#137)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:23:03 AM EST
    retired four-star general, plead guilty to one count of unauthorized removal and retention of classified material.  The plea deal will avoid a trial. A maximum penalty is for one year in jail.   Petraeus provided the material to his mistress, Paul Broadwell.

    Parent
    Stupid use of government email (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by MO Blue on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:05:29 PM EST
    The DOJ report on Ferguson could be released as soon as Wednesday.

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Justice Department investigation will allege sweeping patterns of discrimination within the Ferguson, Missouri, police department and at the municipal jail and court, a law enforcement official familiar with the report said Tuesday.

    The report, which could be released as soon as Wednesday, will charge that police disproportionately use excessive force against blacks and that black drivers are stopped and searched far more often than white motorists, even though they're less likely to be carrying contraband.
    ...
    Among the findings of the report was a racially tinged 2008 message in a municipal email account stating that President Barack Obama would not be president for very long because "what black man holds a steady job for four years."

    But of course that email was not about race because as Charlie Pierce always says, "Nothing is ever about race."

    Parent

    The point being (none / 0) (#141)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:39:47 AM EST
    He used personal email.

    Parent
    But Petraeus (none / 0) (#148)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:02:48 PM EST
     is copping to possessing criminal intent, not merely being unwise, careless or negligent, etc.

      I am NOT a HRC supporter, now or ever, but that is a false equivalency.

    Parent

    Do you think the (none / 0) (#153)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:39:02 PM EST
    John Deutch case is closer to the Petraeus case than the Clinton case (based on what we know?).   Dr. Deutch was head of the CIA (1995-1996).  In January 2001, Deutch plead guilty to misdemeanor charges of unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents--deploying his personal computers at home.  Just afterward, Deutch was pardoned by President Clinton as leaving office.

    Parent
    i was not comparing criminality (none / 0) (#163)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:02:20 PM EST
    Merely using an example of a high level official who was using personal email and who should have known better.

    As I said, especially after all the caterwauling about Karl Rove and the US Attorney firing scandal.

    Link

    But this story looks even worse if you transport yourself back to early 2009, when Clinton first became of Secretary of State and, according to this story, initially refused to use a governmental account. The Bush administration had just left office weeks earlier under the shadow of, among other things, a major ongoing scandal concerning officials who used personal email addresses to conduct business, and thus avoid scrutiny.

    The scandal began in June 2007, as part of a Congressional oversight committee investigation into allegations that the White House had fired US Attorneys for political reasons. The oversight committee asked for Bush administration officials to turn over relevant emails, but it turned out the administration had conducted millions of emails' worth of business on private email addresses, the archives of which had been deleted.

    The effect was that investigators couldn't access millions of internal messages that might have incriminated the White House. The practice, used by White House officials as senior as Karl Rove, certainly seemed designed to avoid federal oversight requirements and make investigation into any shady dealings more difficult. Oversight committee chairman Henry Waxman accused the Bush administration of "using nongovernmental accounts specifically to avoid creating a record of the communications."

    That scandal unfolded well into the final year of Bush's presidency, then overlapped with another email secrecy scandal, over official emails that got improperly logged and then deleted, which itself dragged well into Obama's first year in office. There is simply no way that, when Clinton decided to use her personal email address as Secretary of State, she was unaware of the national scandal that Bush officials had created by doing the same.




    Parent
    You don't know that it wasn't secure (none / 0) (#154)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:45:39 PM EST
    You are making an assumption.

    And Petraeus is not charged with anything to do with email.  He maintained 8 black books (whatever the hell those are) that he provided to Broadwell, they included notes from his personal meetings with the President, and whatever he's in Dutch for it was in those books.

    Parent

    There are many who are wondering (none / 0) (#168)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:09:38 PM EST
    You also can't say they were secure.

    Link

    Parent

    The more salient issue (none / 0) (#177)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:00:00 PM EST
     is does this demonstrate a belief that she need not follow the rules if she personally determines the rules are inferior to her preferred method.

      The corollary is whether a person who thinks that way demonstrates qualities that are less than ideal for one entrusted with leadership.

      I'd add that from a personal POV, I'd have to be highly confident of a person's judgment and integrity to dismiss the possibility that the personally preferred method is chosen over the rules for a "good," or even "innocent" reason.

       I have profound doubts about her judgment and integrity, but even those who don't should consider how such information will be received by others.

    Parent

    Something tells me the SOS private email (none / 0) (#178)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:00:52 PM EST
    Is extra secure, that that is a given once you have that job.

    Parent
    Question (none / 0) (#162)
    by vicndabx on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:01:30 PM EST
    Do you know if state dept. email is encrypted?

    Parent
    What if this is all CDS (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by caseyOR on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:41:41 PM EST
    inspired hype? What if Hillary violated exactly no rules or laws by using private email? I ask because it appears that she did not violate the law/rules.

    Well, this might be the explanation: The new regs apparently weren't fully implemented by State until a year and half after Clinton left State. Here's the timeline: Clinton left the State Department on February 1, 2013. Back in 2011, President Obama had signed a memorandum directing the update of federal records management. But the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) didn't issue the relevant guidance, declaring that email records of senior government officials are permanent federal records, until August 2013. Then, in September 2013, NARA issued guidance on personal email use.

    So if these new regulations went into effect after she left State, then what rule did she violate, exactly?

    I saw this link to a Michael Tomasky story on this email faux scandal. He actually took the time to check the facts of the matter with the State Dept. Seems like the NY Times could have done the same, but chose not to.

    Apparently, CDS is a prion disease. No cure.

    Parent

    That link, btw, came from (none / 0) (#176)
    by caseyOR on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:43:24 PM EST
    Digby.

    Parent
    Yes, The Presidential (none / 0) (#180)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:03:39 PM EST
    and Federal Records Act Amendment was passed in 2014  after Mrs. Clinton left the Secretary of State Office in Feb 2013.  This news is breaking now because, starting in Oct 2014, the State Department began new practices to move into compliance.  John Kerry had been using government email, but not Colin Powell, at least not all the time.  The practices of Condi Rice have not yet been reported, but the State Department is going back to Secretaries since Mme. Albright asking for back-ups for record purposes.  The seeking of back-ups is how Mrs. Clinton's email  situation came up. And, there have been efforts to sort out documents.  

    This is not a legal issue, but a political one.  One, in my view, that needs to be confronted forthrightly and quickly. The NYTimes was remiss in not including the enactment dates of the new law.  With the plea deal for Petraeus on seemingly, but not, similar matters, it is important for Mrs. Clinton's and her team to get on this effectively.  

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:11:57 PM EST
    We would demand this from a Republican so why should demand any less from Mrs. Clinton?

    Parent
    Actually, I doubt the NY Times (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by caseyOR on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:18:16 PM EST
    would have published the story if it had been a Republican. I mean, really, this is a story only because it is a chance to bash Hillary with innuendo.

    OMG! Hillary Clinton violates NO rules or laws concerning email. Nonetheless, we, the same newspaper that started the Whitewater debacle by running a story with little to no actual facts, must publish a story, once again lacking salient facts, that attacks Hillary Clinton.

    Parent

    Except (none / 0) (#188)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:41:04 PM EST
    There WERE some regulations in place (NARA) as to document preservation.  Which is noisy  likely why Chuck Hagel and Janey Napolitano did not use it.

    Not sure why you want to go. back to Whitewater, but now we can't trust the NYT?  Guess that means no more Charles Pierce or Paul Krugman - guess they can't be trusted either.

    Parent

    likely, not noisy (none / 0) (#189)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:42:03 PM EST
    Why are you demanding anything? (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:36:40 PM EST
    If it wasn't law/required when she was SoS, what's the problem? She decided to maintain one email account vs 2. And by not using a .officialsos email, she could never be accused of using her work email for personal reasons . . . :P (and her personal correspondence was not left on their servers to be used willy nilly . . . .) She turned over what was requested of her awhile ago. Apparently, it wasn't an issue then . . .

    I will say, as someone who used to filter all email accounts through one main one, 1 addy is certainly easier. I do find it interesting though, how this has become a "scandal" . . . yet it wasn't when she was sending massive amounts of emails all over the world as SoS from an account she set up as Sos. Did nobody notice . . .?

    Parent

    Correction (none / 0) (#194)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:48:46 PM EST
    She turned over what was deemed ok to turn over specifically for the Benghazi hearings - not all of her emails.

    Parent
    Never said it was all. (none / 0) (#195)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:54:32 PM EST
    what was requested

    Have the folks who requested, indicated they feel it was incomplete?

    But you are missing (avoiding?) the larger point of my comment . . .

    Parent

    I think you are missing the larger point (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 03:03:11 PM EST
    Why should we hold HRC to a lower standard than we would a Republican? Are we not allowed to ask her to explain her conduct that, while may or may not have broken rules, have the appearance of being improper and at the very least, show a lack of good judgment?  Shouldn't we get answers to this now before any formal campaign starts and this becomes a bigger issue?  This "nothing to see here" attitude is not helpful.

    Again, please see the outrage around here and at other liberal blogs concerning the US Attorney scandal and the fact that personal emails were used.  Hypocrisy is not the new black.

    Parent

    There is no one (none / 0) (#201)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 03:26:48 PM EST
    out there who is more able to handle this kind of stuff than the Clintons. This is now John Kerry who is going to think that nobody will believe this. She's been dealing with this kind of stuff for a quarter of a century or maybe even longer. I'm sure she will handle it but this is the kind of thing that she is going to be up against when running. People like the NYT are going to try to make a mountain out of a molehill.

    There frankly are really other stuff that she needs to flesh out too but she's not even announced she's running. So when she does I'm sure she'll have an answer.

    Parent

    Who said hold her to a lower standard? (none / 0) (#203)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 03:28:40 PM EST
    She had one email account she used for SoS (and apparently sent some personal emails from too). It's not like she was doing part of her job on an official account and part of it from her yahoo account. Nobody has questioned this and it had been going on since 2009. Others have used more than one account . . .

    Until someone can show something credible that she has done something wrong, I'm  am not going to go through the outrage wringer on this. It just adds to the "scandal!!!" factor and is a waste. Tell me, do you honestly think that she would have done anything that would have hinted at wrong doing since another run for the presidency has been on the table all along? I mean, really? You don't think she would consider how things "look" with her history v GOP? Good grief, the GOP has had several YEARS to pin this "scandal" on her . . . . I wonder if they were thinking "nothing to see here" until the NYT decided to make a scandal out of it . . .  and as usual, she will give the answers (more than once likely), and some will never believe what she says and will continue for the next 2 decades to bring it up . . .

    Parent

    There (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:32:22 AM EST
    is no violation. Every SOS has used a personal email account until John Kerry and she handed over all the personal emails. It's a big nothing.

    Parent
    Not exactly (none / 0) (#123)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:47:59 AM EST
    Colin Powell, for example, used his personal email for correspondence with ambassadors and foreign leaders and such, but he did not use his personal email exclusively, which is what HRC did.

    This won't be a campaign killer, but it really does hurt in that it breeds the narrative about the secretiveness of the Clinton's, how they think they are above the law, etc.

    Parent

    It's a Big Deal... (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:12:57 AM EST
    ...this week.

    And it is a big deal in that why would anyone not use a secure government email rather than a private one.  Beyond the records, it's simply a less secure way to transmit very secure information.

    Now that hackers know about it there is going to be a hard press to be the one to locate and infiltrate that sever.

    It's not a deal breaker for me, but it just adds to my dislike I have for this presumed candidate.  I mean seriously, that is probably a fireable offense here and I would imagine many other places that are not dealing with this sort of sensitive information.

    It defies logic to such a degree that it screams 'something to hide', even if there is nothing to hide.

    Parent

    I LIKE this presumed candidate (none / 0) (#127)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:21:48 AM EST
    But it makes me wonder as well.  And why didn't ANYONE from the get-go say, "Hey!  You should be using the state.gov email for at least SOME of your business" ?

    Parent
    I don't think... (none / 0) (#129)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:27:38 AM EST
    government emails are all that secure either, fwiw.

    Didn't the CIA get busted spying on senate emails during the torture investigation?

    "Secure email" is an oxymoron...no such thing.  But I guess it would set a bad example if the government stopped using it altogether.

    Parent

    Given what the CIA did (none / 0) (#130)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:34:16 AM EST
    Doesn't Clinton look smarter than the average Hill citizen.  We all know from Snowden that without the encryption keys it's a no go.  And Snowden secured his email, probably still does.  It isn't impossible, just more difficult.  So Clinton's emails were likely more secure than anyones since the CIA obviously has the encryption key for everyone else on the Hill.

    Parent
    Not necessarily... (none / 0) (#131)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:41:19 AM EST
    since as part of the cabinet, she had the influence to maybe get the CIA/NSA to stop spying on our government, if not all of us!

    That would be smart, what Clinton did could be called sneaky.  Which is what I would expect a layperson to have to do to be free from unwarranted surveillance, not the god damn Secretary of State.

    Parent

    What if she knew that was hopeless (none / 0) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:44:10 AM EST
    A fools errand, and would only end up with her appearing to chase the mice in her head and do her first job as Secretary of State poorly?

    Parent
    If she thinks... (none / 0) (#140)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:39:03 AM EST
    it's hopeless, I think that would be very telling.  Too bad honesty is out of the question in politics, I'd really like to know if she thinks privacy is hopeless and won't be fighting for privacy as president.

    But I think I know the answer...my suspicion is she is totally behind the creation of a total surveillance state, and she'll do what she can to protect her privacy, to hell with ours.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:01:55 PM EST
    I hate to burst your bubble but she voted against immunity for the telecoms while Obama voted for it.

    Parent
    No bubble to burst... (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:12:17 PM EST
    I am not under any illusions that privacy aka freedom has any friends in Washington DC.

    Forget Obama v Clinton, it's not even a Brand D v Brand R thing on this issue.  "All secrecy, no privacy" is bipartisan.

    Parent

    I think anyone familiar with DC (none / 0) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:59:07 AM EST
    Knows, even before the current state of surveillance, that caution and not being a rube is a basic requirement to survive in that town.

    Parent
    I hear ya... (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:20:45 PM EST
    for the record, I don't give a sh*t how these arseholes email.  Nor do I wish to deny them the right to private correspondence while in office, everyone deserves that.

    But everyone does not have that...it's the hypocrisy and/or appearance of that gets my goat.

    And regardless of government server or google server, if a government official wants to have a private conversation...they best do it in public, in person, away from any and all electronic devices...just like everybody else!

    Parent

    If she thought it was hopeless (none / 0) (#157)
    by sj on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:55:43 PM EST
    wouldn't see the Snowden revelations as cause for alarm? If she had concerns but still wanted to support Obama she could have said nothing. Instead she went the "troubled" route and made a statement that was rife with misdirection. It was concern trolling, IMO.

    I think it was with those remarks that I realized she has to really, really work to get my vote. I want to see what she has to say when she isn't speaking as a member of Obama's administration.

    But I don't expect much.

    Parent

    We are learning that significant (none / 0) (#135)
    by christinep on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:02:22 AM EST
    instances of official government email have been hacked ... in various forms.

    Parent
    "adds to my dislike" (none / 0) (#136)
    by christinep on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:08:35 AM EST
    Scott: When we don't particularly like someone (or are not of that political persuasion) these kinds of issues have staying power because they are used to fortify the initial impression.  OTOH, for those who are predisposed toward someone, the matter adds nothing and--for me and others similarly situation--is and will be a nothing-burger.  (Though I do like the word "kerfuffle" for this situation.)

    Parent
    I do not dislike Hillary Clinton, (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:05:42 PM EST
    if fact, I like her a lot.   However, this matter is not something that Mrs. Clinton can ignore.  Early claims are that she complied with the letter and spirit of the law.  This needs to be expanded.

    The more transparent and the faster this is dealt with, the better.  The best tact, in my opinion. would be for her to explain the reason for sole use of the personal computer and to release all emails to the archivists, including personal communications, since she mixed government and private communications.    Reasonable redactions would be fine, and public release restricted until the co-mingling can be disentangled.  

    This will not satisfy her political enemies, but help quench the matter for all others.  

    Parent

    I think that what you have outlined, KeysDan (none / 0) (#191)
    by christinep on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:43:26 PM EST
    is quite likely to be what the former SOS does.  But, as I said, those who are interested in finding a fault or a scandal that could do damage will continue to do so (because what are you gonna do after trying to make Benghaziiii into a scandal that it never was.)  Personally, it might be fun to let the usual bunch yell a bit out there ... only to follow with a clear, sensible response by Clinton.

    Parent
    So What... (none / 0) (#169)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:11:41 PM EST
    ...maybe to you it makes a difference, but it does not to me. Not liking Clinton has nothing to do with her or anyone else doing off the email grid and the lack of security found there.

    Please post links of .gov people that have been hacked.  Not who the CIA spied on, that is not hacking, and they can surely spy on Clinton's email no matter who the host is if they want to.

    FYI I am democrat will grudgingly vote for whoever the candidate is, doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean I should not express my views of them.

    Parent

    Scott: I understand your point ... but, disagree (none / 0) (#192)
    by christinep on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:44:49 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:34:04 AM EST
    she released the emails so I'm not sure how it "hurts". The Clinton crazies who are sure she's out for world domination with Agenda 21 minds won't be changed but there's probably not much else to it.

    Parent
    Well, no (none / 0) (#142)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:45:58 AM EST
    She had staff members pick and choose which emails to turn over to the State Department.  She didn't turn them ALL over.  Arguably, those not turned over would be irrelevant to her job as SoS or  personal, but we don't know that.

    How many emails were in Mrs. Clinton's account is not clear, and neither is the process her advisers used to determine which ones related to her work at the State Department before turning them over.


    Parent
    And I would bet (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:47:24 AM EST
    That if this was a Republican that did that, this board would be lit up with outrage.

    Parent
    If ?? (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:06:07 PM EST
    It's not an if, remember the huge scandal with Bush and pretty much everyone else using non .gov email addresses.  Granted it was wrapped in in a much larger scale that included missing emails and archive issues.

    The Bush White House email controversy surfaced in 2007 during the controversy involving the dismissal of eight U.S. attorneys. Congressional requests for administration documents while investigating the dismissals of the U.S. attorneys required the Bush administration to reveal that not all internal White House emails were available, because they were sent via a non-government domain hosted on an email server not controlled by the federal government.
    LINK

    The issue has been in the public eye, so there is no way Clinton didn't know that she shouldn't be doing it.  I don't really care beyond security of communications through the state department.

    Also, republicans need to realize she is doing what Bush & Co. did, but they did it on a far larger scale.

    Can we stop with the hotmail/gamil/yahoo or whatever sevice mail is more secure that .gov, I mean seriously.

    When did .gov get hacked, whose emails ?

    Not who did the CIA spy on, that is absurd to think they can get into .gov and not her email, and since she is communicating with .gov, finding it would be relatively easy.  

    FYI, encryption requires keys on both ends, one to encrypt and the other to decrypt, meaning that everyone she emailed would need the key to read the emails.  No way she encrypted them.

    Parent

    Same question I posed to JB (none / 0) (#186)
    by vicndabx on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:35:03 PM EST
    Do we know if state emails are automatically encrypted? Surely you who seem kimd of techie know that email goes thru many different routers and pipes all of which are vulnerable to hacking.  Do we know what the retention period is for state emails? I can go to hotmail/outlook.com and see emails from over 6 years ago.

    I found a DHS pdf on the web where they recommend using MS Word or Adobe to encrypt sensitive info amd and then attach that to email.  Not exactly cutting edge.

    My point is, there is no reason to believe the SoS didn't comply with the letter and spirit of the law.  Using a specific domain name at the end of your email address is meaningless. What matters is who the mail is from and if copies can be obtained.

    Parent

    A Simple Explanation (none / 0) (#200)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 03:18:26 PM EST
    If she she did not use a government email, regardless of the security, it still resides on a server administered by people who are not in the government.  They controlled the data and I would imagine still do.

    I really don't feel like arguing with fellow D's about something that is so obviously dumb.  It's a scandal, but on the scandal meter, it's like a two at best.

    Parent

    I'm sure she (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:57:33 AM EST
    still has them and I'm sure she's going to let the GOP go into full conspiracy theory mode and then she's going to realease them and they're going to look like idiots. They're probably between her and Chelsea. C'mon the woman has been the target of the GOP for a quarter of a century and she's a lawyer. She knows how to handle this kind of stuff. Unless she was leaking classified infomration like Petraeus, I seriously doubt there is anything there.

    Parent
    You do realize, don't you (none / 0) (#149)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    That it doesn't matter if 'anything is there."

    I'm positive she made a calculated decision when she did it.  But it still just looks bad.


    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:30:45 PM EST
    you're getting overwrought about this. It's email. I'm sure there are copies. I'm sure the GOP will try to make something of it. Remember Benghazi and how "bad" it looked according to the DC crowd until all the facts came out? This is just how the DC crowd is and they're certainly no friends of Hillary even if she did everything perfectly they would still be saying it "looked bad" because that's just how they are.

    Anyway with the coral of loons running in the GOP primary none of this is going to matter.

    Parent

    "Overwrought?" (none / 0) (#170)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:13:49 PM EST
    Hyperbole,much?

    Parent
    This is a damning statement (none / 0) (#190)
    by sj on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:42:25 PM EST
    I think (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:30:45 AM MDT

    you're getting overwrought about this. It's email. I'm sure there are copies.

    I know you meant for this to be reassuring but I find it disheartening. I would find it alarming, but my alarm meter is on overload.

    Parent
    My meter is broken :) (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:46:04 PM EST
    It takes the 'scandal" to be fleshed out to being an actual scandal before it will work these days. I'm thinking it will make the next 2 years of "scandals' much more relaxing . . .

    Parent
    Heh, I'm a fan, you know that (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 10:24:53 AM EST
    But she maintained an exclusive and isolated control. I'm certain it was an account well protected.  I think it's a big nothing too.  After what the Clinton administration went through I would have done the same thing.  It is Clintonesque though, protecting oneself, not being a rube patsy.  I personally feel that someone refreshingly naive is easily made irrelevant and damaged by the wolves of DC :). You won't see me knocking her for doing the smart thing.

    For all I know she controlled the release of her email account fact :). It's what I would do.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#139)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:36:56 AM EST
    with you regarding the "wolves of DC". We see what has happened with Obama on that account.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#144)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 11:55:43 AM EST
    He sprang back.  Put there has been little politically that will be a fond memory for him.  I hope he made lots of other memories out of the public eye more fortifying for him and his family to dwell on when he is no longer saddled with the Presidency.

    Parent
    I just got an email... (none / 0) (#155)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:46:24 PM EST
    from hdr22@clintonemail.com, but it appears to be in Romanian. ;)

    Parent
    I knew she was going to try to hire (none / 0) (#156)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:52:04 PM EST
    You away :)

    Parent
    Actually... (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:57:13 PM EST
    according to Romanian to English google translate, she just needs my mother's maiden name and my social security number at this time, for a preliminary cursory background check :)

    Parent
    She has to start somewhere interviewing you :) (none / 0) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 12:59:55 PM EST
    Yeah, kdog, you might like it (none / 0) (#167)
    by fishcamp on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:08:30 PM EST
    over there in Romania.  Isn't that where those big hairy Olympic weight lifters come from?  :)

    Parent
    If I was computer literate... (none / 0) (#171)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:19:37 PM EST
    and knew how to hack, hell yeah I'd like it in Romania spending your bank's money! lol

    Parent
    there is no shortage of hot Romanian women.

    Parent
    So how did this not come out during the (none / 0) (#173)
    by ruffian on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 01:38:52 PM EST
    Benghazi furor?

    It does seem odd that she did not even have a government account, regardless of how much she did or dd not use it. If she was nearly as Machiavellian as people think, she would have one she used for the banal stuff to preserve a favorable record for public consumption.

    Parent

    And are we to believe not one Republican (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by nycstray on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 02:59:41 PM EST
    who had dealings with her, and must have received an email via the account, didn't notice it was a 'problem' . . .? It's not like they hadn't been trying to pin something on her while she was SoS . . .

    Parent
    John Hughes: A Life in Film... (none / 0) (#119)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:32:15 AM EST
    ...is out today.

    A new book, "John Hughes: A Life in Film", attempts to tell both Hughes' story and the ones behind his films -- including those signature teen-centric comedies from the 1980s.
    LINK

    I was teenager in the 80's and his films we were about us, from 'Breakfast Club' to 'Ferris Bueller's Day Off', John Hughes had his thumb on the heartbeat on my generation.

    My fondest memory of Leonard Nimoy (none / 0) (#205)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 04:36:24 PM EST
    is listening to him reading the letters of Vincent Van Gogh, which was wonderful and very moving.

    Yeah, (none / 0) (#206)
    by Reconstructionist on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 04:45:13 PM EST
      I'll agree there is no duo on the planet with the experience at deflecting and rationalizing actions which suggest dubious ethics. After a quarter century they are the best at this particular political skill.

      Personally, I would prefer people who have not had to develop such skills to such a masterful degree.

      I will never get behind the notion that being the best at explaining way self-inflicted problems makes one the best choice to be President.

      At a certain point, "look no crime has ever been proven despite the countless times the spotlight has been turned on us , and all our problems are just the product of a vast right wing conspiracy," does not suffice.

      I'm not contemplating imprisoning her but I cannot fathom why her supporters think the mere lack of criminal conduct is good enough, and ethics and honesty are considered irrelevant.

     

    Jim Re : Evidence of global warming (none / 0) (#207)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 06:46:38 PM EST
    if you look at this, this, and this as well as a number of galleries of photographs  demonstrating the shrinking of glaciers around the world,then that's the tip of  the icebeg of the evidence for which you claim to be seeking for AGW.

    Can't respond to comments (none / 0) (#208)
    by republicratitarian on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 07:45:06 PM EST
    Has there been an update to the site? I'm trying to respond to a comment and I only have the option to rate a comment or make a new post.

    Help please. :)

    After 200 posts In this furluggisher system (none / 0) (#209)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 07:54:46 PM EST
    threading ends, so further posts just occur without responding to previous ones.

    Alabama Supreme Court (none / 0) (#210)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 08:51:13 PM EST
    furshlugginer. (none / 0) (#211)
    by desertswine on Tue Mar 03, 2015 at 09:50:46 PM EST