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Friday Open Thread

Another busy day. Our last open thread is full, here's another one, all topics welcome.

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    Is the left becoming to PC? (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:43:09 AM EST
    The Atlantic - liberals vs liberals

    The above article references the recent Chait article that made the assertion that the rise of PC thought is stifling debate.

    I bring this up because while I love coming on this site and commenting I often feel this tactic used against me.   Certain thoughts and links to non progressive sites are dismissed out of hand because they don't fit a certain PC narrative and the fun (the debate) stops.

    Even while I enjoy commenting my favorite activity is to read your comments along with the info in the original posts.

    And I must say I see what these articles are referring to all the time between posters on this site.  If you don't hold the latest PC idea on certain issues you aren't debated you are dismissed.

    Am I crazy?  I bring it up to see if others see this pattern in our natural discourse and even at TL.

    Keep in mind we on the other side have our own issues like being unable to separate moral and political or fiscal issues making too many on the right look like kooks is just one of many so don't attsck me like I think I'm on the side of Angels.

    I am honestly curious to get feedback from progressives on this topic.

    Jonathan Chait kind of got hoist on his own (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Anne on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:59:12 AM EST
    petard in that article he wrote.

    Here's Amanda Marcotte:

    While the article purports to be a lambasting of "the culture of taking offense" and censorious attitudes, it quickly becomes clear that the only speech Chait is interested in protecting is conservative or contrarian. When it comes to people saying uncomfortable or provocative things from the left, Chait comes across as just as censorious and silencing as any of the leftist prigs he attempts to criticize.

    [...]

    Commitment to free-wheeling public discourse is an admirable position, of course. But it has to go both ways. "I am white and male, a fact that is certainly worth bearing in mind," Chait writes. I will take him on his advice and suggest that's why he doesn't seem to realize it's two-faced to scold lefties for being hypersensitive while demanding that they tip-toe around his own hypersensitivities. But the rest of us should not be fooled.

    In my opinion, and speaking only for myself, it isn't the failure to subscribe to a PC narrative that gets certain links and thoughts dismissed out of hand, it's the tendency for these sources to routinely and deliberately distort and manipulate the facts - and to generally promote ideas, policies and actions that have either been proven not to work as advertised, and/or are regressive, authoritarian and punitive in nature, unhealthily bellicose and disgustingly tolerant of racist, sexist and classist ideas and policies.  A lot of it originates in outlets like Fox News, which I consider, generally, to be a kind of poisonous tree, and blogs and sites that consistently accept Fox's version of the facts, add their own ugly spin and seek to perpetuate ideas and a point of view based on them are the fruit of that tree.

    Which is not to say that the so-called liberal media (and i qualify that with "so-called," because I don't necessarily consider those "liberal" outlets to be all that liberal) doesn't put its own spin on things - they do.  And they don't always tell the whole story, either.

    I guess my starting point is that I already know what I believe - I'm pretty much past the stage where I can be persuaded to support the right-wing view of things: it just isn't who I am.  I may need the media to report on things I'm not equipped to find out on my own, but I don't need them to tell me what to think about it, and I don't need them to prove that what I believe passes muster.

    I don't happen to think this is all a matter of what's PC and what isn't; I think it's a struggle between and representative of fundamental differences in what people believe.  That's nothing new, I don't think, it's just more concentrated, and thus more noticeable, when the occasional conservative finds him- or herself trying to be heard over the voices of mostly liberals/progressives.

    And vice-versa. If you don't think I'd be shouted down for my liberal ideas if I tried to discuss them on a conservative blog, I'd have to say you might not be looking at this as objectively as you think!

    Parent

    You may be surprised to hear, Anne, (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:01:57 AM EST
    that I don't read you or your posts as "liberal" or "conservative."

    I view you and your posts as rational, enlightened, and reasoned.

    Like Chris Rock says, everyone is a mix of liberal and conservative.  Damned few people agree on everything.  The two-label system sucks.  

    A continuum with only two end points cannot represent positions in a universe containing dozens of issues.  An accurate representation would require a vector in of as many dimensions as there are issues.  Which would be completely impossible to represent on a TV screen, let alone a bumper sticker, or in a two party system.

    Parent

    My opinion (none / 0) (#7)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:42:32 AM EST
    Is ones opinion should never be static.

    By saying...

    I already know what I believe
     

    You're kind of saying you are never able to leave an opinion open just a bit to the other position.  For me then you miss out on the opportunity to learn and while not change it but understand the other point better and see positions of compromise.  

    Again my original question wasn't the difference between my views on the conservative side and yours.  It was is there the same kind of thing happening within the liberal community that you have to be so PC even liberals have this phenomena happening to them.

    Parent

    Case in point (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:48:35 AM EST
     Newsweek does a story asking if Silicon Valley has a problem with sexism.

    Then they get criticism for the cover of a story talking about exactly what the criticism is about..

    Seems like a case of too much PC.

    Parent

    Newsweek deserves (none / 0) (#45)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    kudos for the article. Newsweek earned criticism for the sexist cover--too much p.c.--as in push for circulation.  

    Parent
    When I say that I already know what (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Anne on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:16:34 AM EST
    I believe, I'm saying that as a 61-year old whose mind has not only been open, but who seeks out information and questions everything.  I say that as someone whose thoughts and opinions have undergone some evolving and developing over time.  I expect that to continue, but I don't expect that I'm ever going to agree with conservatives on what I consider to be some pretty basis issues.

    I'm happy to listen to your opinions, and happy to try to understand how you came to have them.  But if you're going to cite Fox or the right-wing sites, those are going to get called into question - much the same way conservatives derisively reject anything liberals offer from MSNBC, Daily Kos and TPM, to name a few.  I don't find Fox to be a credible source, and if you're basing your opinions on the "facts" they're providing, I'm probably going to call BS on that.  I guess I could ask you whether, when someone points out that Fox is once again wrong on the facts, you reconsider your position.  Maybe you don't not because Fox is telling you what to think, but because you already had those opinions, and what Fox says isn't going to change them.

    Look, we are who we are.  When you participate in a liberal blog discussion, your conservative views are going to be challenged, and some are going to be rejected.

    I don't know what that has to do with PC, and I find Chait trying to make it about political correctness to be somewhat disingenuous and diversionary.

    Parent

    Mr Chait is an idiot (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:20:03 AM EST
    And his fear of "teh Left" in his piece demonstrates what a poor thinker he really is.  

    Parent
    ::shrug:: (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by sj on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 12:09:27 PM EST
    Chait has always been kind of a self-entitled a$$. He doesn't think he should be subject to the same kind of treatment he doles out on a regular basis. I, for the most part, agree with what GG has to say about Chait's self-pitying whine.

    Parent
    I read that as addressing powers in the (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:28:58 PM EST
    left of center wing of political ideology. Of course right of center does it too. We saw that with the teaparty attacking mainstream, moderate republicans. It happens on the left too - which he pointed out, and which left of center people (many of them) do not want to hear. So the question is valid: "Are the extremes shutting down their moderates?".

    A lot of the communication he is talking about starts online. I see it here a little bit, but I see it on other sites way more. Example, try wading into a conversation with some leftists about vaccines. These people are as anti-science as any climate change denier. Once one links to, say, CNN or NYT, then whatever one writes is dismissed outright (since those sources are considered bad MSM). Some commenters are like that.

    On some strong self-identified leftist sites, once one makes an argument for vaccinating to protect the community, then others say things like "But anti-biotics can be very harmful for all of humanity". Guess in this case vaccines equal anti-biotics and every last little g-d mainstream medical medication or procedure too.

    So they have no motivation or desire to, say, not expose their neighbor's 6 month old, or immune challenged kids to measles.

    Individualism run amok. Via the internet.  

    If Commenter-A says something, links to some source, agrees or disagrees with someone who Commenter-B has some strong opinions about then Commenter-B will associate Commenter-A with everything Commenter-B hates. I see this over and over and over, and over again. No matter what 'side'. You'll see things like, "you 'liked' or linked, voted for, or agreed with such-and-such, or so-and-so and I did not like or agree with them so I will want to shut down your comments". and "Chait (or whoever) once wrote something I did not agree with so I will dismiss his words automatically."

    I think it is much a function mass communication between people who basically consider themselves individuals, and not, in essence, a function of political thought. Communication between the right and left of center gets even more shut down.

    However political talk seems to be a shorthand for long strings, webs and links of thought. Even comments about the Superbowl teams can get politically accusatory. We as a culture (global culture at this point) are still very young at massive communication between individuals. It is a learning curve.

    Parent

    Perhaps I have led more of a sheltered (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by Anne on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:02:37 PM EST
    life than I thought, but I don't know any "leftists" who have a problem with vaccines, nor am I familiar with self-identified leftist sites that are anti-science, but since you didn't provide any links, I have no way to see these things for myself.

    The people I know of or am aware of who are anti-vaccine and anti-science are predominantly religious conservatives who homeschool their children.

    Here's the thing: there are some opinions that are just so out there that they don't merit discussion, no matter how many links someone provides.  Obama's citizenship, the secret Muslim thing, the conspiracy theories about 9/11, to name just a few.  Or all the conspiracy theories that follow Hillary Clinton wherever she goes.

    As a rational, reasonable and not-extreme liberal, why do I have to entertain that nonsense as being credible enough to merit accommodating?  Because someone like Jonathan Chait thinks it's the PC thing to do?

    For what it's worth, I don't think it's a case of some outlet or pundit or person saying one thing someone disagreed with rendering all of their opinions worthless; I think it's a case of a body of work being so consistently flawed and illogical that one shouldn't feel obligated to to make that person an authority on the subject of the discussion.  Do you keep a broken watch because twice a day it shows the right time?  Because that's kind of what this compares to.

    At bottom, I think we all want to be heard.  We're - most of us - just regular people with varied interests who have a need to know what's going on around us, in the various worlds theough which we all move.  I know that the variety of knowledge people here have has greatly expanded my own knowledge and understanding of things with which I was unfamiliar, and I appreciate that.  

    Maybe you can suggest how we can be respectful without giving someone the idea we think their crackpot ideas are credible - because, as we've seen a lot with the media, the insistence that "both sides" must always be heard is one way crazy gets elevated to credible.  

    Parent

    Maybe because you do not live on the (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:04:06 PM EST
    west coast you are unaware of this discussion on vaccines? It might be interesting to you to google something like " anti vaxx disney outbreak " and find out for yourself.

    Parent
    I googled (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:28:35 PM EST
    Anti vaccination Disney outbreak as you suggested and failed to find the leftist sites preaching against vaccinations or articles blaming the outbreak at Disney on leftists. Since you are familiar with all of these leftist sites, it would be helpful if you provided links to substantiate your claims.

    Parent
    I think you miss the point (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by sj on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:41:34 PM EST
    Anne is referring to your decision to accuse "leftists" of having the problem with vaccines. That is hardy the same thing as being "unaware of this discussion".

    Which actually was made obvious by her next sentence.

    The people I know of or am aware of who are anti-vaccine and anti-science are predominantly religious conservatives who homeschool their children


    Parent
    getting back to the actual point of my comment (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:53:26 PM EST
    which was in response to slado and his question regarding the Chait article.

    My point was (again) that the left, as well as the right, engage in communication driven by the internet that attempts to shut down other voices. That was Chait's point - or one of them - too.

    Get into any divisive subject - vaccines/health, men's rights, women's rights, race, religion, politics, class and $$, '08 primary wars, sports, etc. - and mass communication, spurred by the internet, is not an attempt to reach consensus, or even understanding or tolerance, but is often (not always) attempts to shut down opposing voices. Also, if one can fine one site that has some views then one can 'surf' to many other linked sites from that. One can 'surf' facebook, or linkedin, or any other large online network and find lots of voices, with lots of ideologies. All that takes is a bit of curiosity, not even internet expertise. And these linked sites are becoming very powerful - as powerful as the 'MSN' or the 'official' linked sites. Odd, but true. 'Individuals' can now find their own 'herds'. Sometimes that is life-saving, other times it is not.

    This has nothing to do with politics! What was so distressing about Chait's views was that he said that 'we' do that too, and not just 'they' do it. It was directed at some members of a political party or political ideology to include them in what is happening with humanity at large. It has nothing to do with frequency, effectiveness or quantity of those kinds of communications. Simply 'writing' off of views because commenters do not link the way someone demands, or is not linked to others that one 'likes' is part of this. Not the whole of it, or the worst of it. But we humans do it.

    Jeralyn has covered some of these fascinating issues. She will actually link to some of IS recruiting materials (I was nearly banned on one site because I linked to one of these since appparently, that linking was not OK with some commenters). In my assessment, from my limited view, these recruiters know how to make ONLINE preemptive attacks on dissenting voices. This is an extreme case to 'us', maybe. But we all do it, to some extent. At least we do it ONLINE. Then that spills out into real life. Sometimes that is helpful, sometimes less so, but it is in any case CHANGE. Change is always distressing to most of us - if not all of us. Sometimes it saves lives of actual people we love IRL. Sometimes it endangers those lives too.

    Also, much of this new communication is visual. Even in the 'white spaces' of text, grammar etc. - it is basically visual. Then add to that the adverts online and the pics on websites. Every human (and maybe many many species) are born with visual literacy. Humans say they discount it (at least some do) but those very humans are 'moved' by some movie, or the shape of some politician, or the visual messages of some ad or campaign.

    The actual fascinating thing about this is not the ideologies, but how people communicate on this very fast changing planet. Linked networks of people (so-called individuals) are becoming ever more powerful. People are still basically herd animals tho. Nevertheless, we (as in humanity) are in the process of evolving (or devolving) - basically we are changing - but that process is not deep yet. Quick yes, but not deep yet.

    Remember it was only 150 years ago (late 19th C approx. - industrial revolution) that people left their usual social environments, rural networks of family and communities, to live as independent individuals in cities. This caused massive changes in communication and probably other areas, like brain development. We are in the middle of the beginning of a new 'revolution' in how people live and communicate. We are now linked by ideologies ONLINE.

    Link to the original article.

    Parent

    Oh, and here is an actual link (none / 0) (#90)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:17:26 PM EST
    and anyone can surf other links from there. Link

    Parent
    Sorry - doesn't cut it (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Yman on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 11:59:35 AM EST
    Your single link is to some blogger just repeating what you said, without offering any evidence that the anti-vaccination movement is made up of "the Left".  If this is actually a progressive/left movement, it should be very easy to provide links that actually back up the accusation.  In fact, here's an actual study on the subject, which concluded that liberals are, in fact, less likely to believe the anti-vaccination myths.

    Vaccine Fear Mongers Are Wrong, But They're Not Ideological

    Parent

    All the people that I know (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by fishcamp on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 12:29:10 PM EST
    who are against vaccines are Republicans, mainly the ones that go to the same gym I do.  Their reasons are vaccines include aluminum, mercury, and strange animal parts.

    Parent
    Friend of mine has a shellfish allergy (none / 0) (#153)
    by nycstray on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 03:26:03 PM EST
    Yup, she needs to be careful of vaccines, believe it or not!

    Parent
    Did you even read ZtoA's post? (2.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 01:56:41 AM EST
    She didn't say it was a "a progressive/left movement"  She didn't say "the anti-vaccination movement is made up of "the Left".  She didn't make any "accusations."

    Some of you desperately need a refresher course on reading comprehension.

    By the way, your link proved ZtoA's point.  "liberals are, in fact, less likely to believe the anti-vaccination myths" doesn't mean that none do; it means that some do, which is precisely what ZtoA said.

    Parent

    Yes - I read it (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Yman on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 01:00:27 PM EST
    Perhaps you didn't read my other post where I pointed out that her initial post was ambiguous on this point.

    By the way, your link proved ZtoA's point.  "liberals are, in fact, less likely to believe the anti-vaccination myths" doesn't mean that none do; it means that some do, which is precisely what ZtoA said.

    Uh, no - that's not "precisely what ZtoA said".  It would be idiotic to say that, since that would apply to (literally) any position on any subject.  She was using the anti-vacinnation movement as an example of leftists and leftist websites "shutting down debate" and that "these people are as anti-science as any climate change denier."  My point was that the anti-vaccination movement is not a leftist movement and that - unlike the climate deniers on the right - their views are a small minority and not representative of "the Left".

    BTW - My reading comprehension is just fine, but yours could certainly use some work.

    Parent

    I never said anti-vax is a 'leftist MOVEMENT' (none / 0) (#158)
    by ZtoA on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:27:16 PM EST
    It is not. However some liberals partake in the anti-vax movement. This cannot be simply dismissed by throwing some links at it, or arguing the numbers. That, in itself, is part of the point!

    Liberals are also involved in lots of other attempts to shut down other liberal's expressions and information. But the point is, it is not a liberal, conservative, white, black, male, female, religious etc thing, it is a human thing, spurred by the internet. It is happening now.

    The whole point is who gets to control/dominate information and communication. Anne gets the point when she writes: "As a rational, reasonable and not-extreme liberal, why do I have to entertain that nonsense as being credible enough to merit accommodating?".

    She is taking Chait rather personally, as many liberals are (viewing Chait as an enemy), and maybe has no experience having other liberals work very hard to dismiss or shut down her views,  but still, why should an extreme view from a small group who are online vocal, shut down her views? Should she be prevented from taking a class at her local university (or teaching one) that some people do not think is fair enough to say, feminists, or muslims, or white men, or whatever? If the course has a sound syllabus, presents sound information, attracts students, then why should it be censored?

    Exactly what is happening. Chait writes a lot about this happening in universities and colleges. It is. Some expression (book, theater, class etc) is actually shut down because of protests that is is not PC enough (tho "PC" is not the words used, ever)  - like it does not have trigger warnings. Or some author did something that someone did not like decades ago and wants the school not to include his/her book(s) in course study - even tho they are very good and peer reviewed and endorsed.  

    Conservatives do this too obviously. Again, this is a human issue, not a political issue.

    Parent

    Glad we cleared that up (none / 0) (#159)
    by Yman on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:47:31 PM EST
    I never said anti-vax is a 'leftist MOVEMENT'.  It is not. However some liberals partake in the anti-vax movement. This cannot be simply dismissed by throwing some links at it, or arguing the numbers. That, in itself, is part of the point!

    Although if you're simply saying "some" liberals participate in it, it's not particularly useful since "some liberals" participate in every movement.

    Parent

    Since I have been saying this is not a right/left (none / 0) (#169)
    by ZtoA on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 10:17:42 PM EST
    issue, but a HUMAN issue all along, I am also glad we cleared this up. Within any self selected group, like 'liberals' or 'feminists' (also what I mentioned and linked to) or 'whatevers', the drive to dominate/control communication and information is the real issue.

    And pretty much every individual person participates in many "movements", or topics or issues. The new thing is the internet which focuses, micro-izes (as in individuals have power with their tiny blogs), and magnifies the human drive to dominate/control. No longer is it just some 'king' or 'president' or 'political party'. The power is starting to reside in tiny blogs and websites which are linked into a larger web. "STARTING" to change - not changed yet!

    Visually, I think of the World Wide Web as a..... well, a web, or in 3D an amoeba ever undulating, dividing, alive. The old model of control/dominance was a pyramid - static, solid, not alive - made of stone. Power/dominance was a top down sort of structure.

    I think of our times today as a remake IRL of the movie "The Blob". Blobs and amoebas have no central nervous system or internal bone structure. Power is a 'linked' or electrically communicated sort of structure (an alive 'structureless' sort of structure).  Yet very disorganized life can very much challenge a very solid, old, structure.

    BTW, did you watch that Jon Stewart link I linked to? It is very telling in some ways.

    Parent

    As I tried to say (again) this is a function (none / 0) (#113)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    of communication between humans. One can easily find sites that are political, both right and left (quantities do not matter) and many that are not political (politics is not the issue) that are against vaccines, Monsanto, big pharma and some more linked ideas.

    The FORM of the online communication is one where dominant voices (and it is easy to have a dominant voice on a tiny blog) try to shut up, dismiss, discredit or ban any dissenting views. That form is 1) a function of online communication which 2) sometimes spills out into real life. Liberals, since they are also human and also engage in online communication do this too. Also, "some blogger" site, even tiny ones, that grow into networks of links have a power hard to recognize.

    Liberals jump to defend themselves by saying the other side does it more, and that may be true. But, as the original article points out, liberals also do this to some extent too. The article also suggests that online drives to dominate any even slightly controversial discussion has both benefits and negatives for whatever ideology is being discussed. That includes, but is not limited to, political communication.

    I think Chait included left of center since if he had singled out the right, then his readers would be complacent/self-righteous and not paid attention.

    Yman, I always like to read your informed rebuts to Jim. I don't especially like it when liberal commenters here attack him personally. There is a difference.

    Take this discussion for example:

    But the space between comfort and freedom is not actually where universities should seek to situate college students. Students should be pushed to defend their ideas and to see the world from a variety of perspectives. Trigger warnings don't just warn students of potentially triggering material; they effectively shut down particular lines of discussion with "that's triggering". Students should - and do - have the right to walk out of any classroom. But students should also accept the challenge of exploring their own beliefs and responding to challenges. Trigger warnings of course don't always shut down that kind of interrogation, but if feminist blogs are any example, they quickly become a way to short-circuit uncomfortable, unpopular or offensive arguments.

    link

    And, ultimately, they (trigger warnings) indirectly communicate something else very important between a writer and hir reader: To some degree, trigger warnings have emerged as a sort of metric for how inclusive a blog community is. The presence or absence of trigger warnings can serve as a good faith litmus test for whether a writer is sensitive to issues that affect you, and whether the commentariat is likely to be supportive or hostile toward your participation. It's a reasonable thing for a reader to expect that a blogger who provides a trigger warning or content note about transphobia, for example, will have moderators who do not allow rampant transphobia in comments.

    Link

    (excerpts):

    This example would be something Jenny Jarvie over at the New Republic would probably roll her eyes at and say was a restriction of the artistic community and freedom. And perhaps it would be a little extreme...if my friend was going around demanding that the band should not be performing and no one should listen to them. But this dystopian fascist state that Jarvie paints, in which "structuring public life around the most fragile personal sensitivities will only restrict all our horizons," doesn't exist.
    .....
    But Jarvie makes her largest mistake when she proposes that trigger warnings are meant as a method to control content and therefore restrict freedom of speech.
    .....
    This description of trigger warnings as a method of control is an odd approach - a confusion between the descriptive and prescriptive work that trigger warnings and content notes perform.

    That is what trigger warnings are for - they allow people who are vulnerable to PTSD, anxiety, and other environmentally triggered conditions to prepare themselves mentally and physically for what they are going to experience.

    Link

    From Chait's article:

    At a growing number of campuses, professors now attach "trigger warnings" to texts that may upset students, and there is a campaign to eradicate "microaggressions," or small social slights that might cause searing trauma. These newly fashionable terms merely repackage a central tenet of the first p.c. movement: that people should be expected to treat even faintly unpleasant ideas or behaviors as full-scale offenses. Stanford recently canceled a performance of Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson after protests by Native American students. UCLA students staged a sit-in to protest microaggressions such as when a professor corrected a student's decision to spell the word indigenous with an uppercase I -- one example of many "perceived grammatical choices that in actuality reflect ideologies." A theater group at Mount Holyoke College recently announced it would no longer put on The Vagina Monologues in part because the material excludes women without vaginas. These sorts of episodes now hardly even qualify as exceptional.


    Parent
    I get you're trying to make a bigger point (none / 0) (#114)
    by Yman on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 01:31:35 PM EST
    My objection is to what appears to be your example/smaller point/claim that the anti-vaccination movement is a "leftist" movement.  The wording in your original comment appears ambiguous, so I'm not sure if that's what you were saying.  There may be some leftists in the anti-vaccine movement, but it's not a leftist movement or even representative of leftists in general.

    Parent
    Another link (none / 0) (#115)
    by Yman on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 01:34:48 PM EST
    At least Jon Stewart is having a bit of (none / 0) (#125)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 04:34:25 PM EST
    That Daily Show vid (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 08:16:04 PM EST
    was scary.   That persn had the talking points down that I kept hearing from these game people.  At a point it becomes very difficult to be polite and you just want to say "you really are a f@cking idiot aren't you?"

    Parent
    I am from out West (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 05:30:52 PM EST
    And ZtoA is correct that there is an anti vaccinate Liberal left on the West coast. One of my best friends here is an artist who went to Berkeley and grew up in California.  The only reason her children are vaccinated is because her spouse is a researcher and will not permit them to not be vaccinated.  Big fight, he won.

    She shuns all modern medicine too.  Eats everything organic and seeks medical solutions singularly from the health food store.  She wanted to have her twins with a midwife, but she did something very strange, she began to carry past her due date.  Most twins are born before 38 wks.  The midwife immediately sent her to an OB, told her she was out.  The OB insisted she could not carry overdue anymore than she already was and had to be induced..the risks were just too great.  She is still furious to this day about this medical intervention.  The science behind everyone's decision be damned to hell.

    Parent

    Oh, I have no doubt ... (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by Yman on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 12:50:01 PM EST
    ... that there are some liberal members of the anti-vaccination movement - probably the homeopathic/anti-conventional-medicine types.  I just don't think it's a "leftists movement" or representative of liberals at all.  I think it's made up different sub-groups and really isn't an ideological (politically) movement.

    Parent
    well, I don't really like vaccines (none / 0) (#157)
    by fishcamp on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:07:01 PM EST
    since they come with needles, but I get them anyway.  BTW I got bitten by a Chickengunya mosquito last month that made me incredibly sick.  I slammed him just as he started but he still got some of his juice into me.  My doctor told me there are now over 100 cases of that mosquito virus here in the keys.  There's no cure or vaccine for any of those viruses, so I went with Vicodin, Valium, and rum.  It seemed to cure the shakes but not the aches.  It's finally starting to go away, I think.

    Parent
    Have you heard about about the mosquito (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycstray on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:49:08 PM EST
    project that may be released down there? Something about GE mosquitos and the new viruses they are bring here?

    Parent
    Was reading about (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:53:07 PM EST
    stray, the genetically modified mosquitos (none / 0) (#173)
    by fishcamp on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 09:58:16 AM EST
    are big news down here and I'm all for the idea.  Of course, there are petitions against the plan, since some dullards are against anything GM.  I bet they'll change their minds if they get bitten by one of the bad boy mosquitos.  I did go to the gym today, but only got half way through my routine, and pooped out.  It's been close to two months since I was barely bitten, but the virus is still with me.  At least it's not the Malaria virus, which I read, never goes away.  

    Parent
    I don't know enough about it (none / 0) (#182)
    by nycstray on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 12:20:13 AM EST
    one of those things that crossed my timeline. My main worry with anything like this is, what kind of colossal f*ck up could happen :P  

    Hope you gat all your strength back soon and are feeling 100%!

    Parent

    Malaria is caused by a protozoan (none / 0) (#183)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 at 09:36:00 AM EST
    parasite, not a virus.  

    Parent
    I too have encountered (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 06:44:33 PM EST
    more than a few liberals and leftists who were vaccineophobic.
    One of the things that really surprised me when I worked for a game company from 2007 2012 was how many people refused the free flu shot.  Which led me t have many strange conversations with people I had thought were reasonably intelligent who were total freaks about vaccinating their children.

    I don't get it.  But it exists.

    Parent

    This is a question to obtain information (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 03:24:19 PM EST
    And understanding of what meaning you assign to words. Not confrontational but more curious.

    You mention that you have encountered more than a few liberals and leftist who were vaccinephobic.

    What is your definition of liberal and what is your definition of leftist? How are they different?


    Parent

    It's really not (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 07:21:01 PM EST
    strictly a left/right thing. It's on both sides from what I have seen. I have this ultra conservative neighbor who refuses to vaccinate her children even to the point of one them being in the hospital for weeks. On the left it tends to be some sort of thing where they're against it because it's not natural. On the right they're against it because they think it's a conspiracy to control children. And both sides have this fear of autism coming from vaccines.

    Parent
    My point Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 07:41:49 PM EST
    its not a right left thing.  but plenty of lefties.

    Parent
    I think some of it also stems from (none / 0) (#130)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 07:50:39 PM EST
    the sheer number of vacs now and the fear of over vaccinating. Plus, some people actually read up on the adverse effects, which is prob enough to make you run screaming :D

    Parent
    There have also been measles outbreaks in Oregon (none / 0) (#132)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 08:26:55 PM EST
    Oregon is politically typical - rural areas are conservative, urban are liberal. The outbreaks are in the cities. Since most of the state's population is in the Willamette Valley and vast rural areas, deserts and mountains, are sparsely populated the state is pretty blue.

    I understand some of the concern. I recently had an extreme and extremely rare negative reaction to a prescribed medication. Does this mean I will never take any medicine or allow my children (since she is grown and living in LA the point is moot) to take any doctor prescribed medications? No. I like and trust my doctor and my surgeons. But I learned a lesson about what not to do when taking a new (to me) drug.

    In this case there has been lots of research and the possible side effects are listed. Research has been done on vaccines and the results have been in for many years, yet this research has been dismissed. (watch that Jon Stewart link to see for yourselves). I think this was the core of Chait's argument - that dismissing, discounting, and ignoring other voices is not the best thing for a like-minded but diverse community - in the case he writes about he cites liberals.

    Parent

    And an unvaccinated family (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 11:24:08 PM EST
    took it back to Arizona. Didn't catch their politics as it was on the news re:superbowl and the infection rate there. You can also expect more outbreaks in cities vs rural no matter left or right. The math kinda works out that when you have more people per square foot, you are going to have more people coming in contact with various contaminants. All it takes is one infected RWNJ riding the NYC subway . . .  ;)

    Parent
    Yes, that was also part of my musings (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ZtoA on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 12:25:09 AM EST
    that infections are spread more in cities and crowded areas and your point is a very good one. Perhaps in person and online communication happens more in cities too??? Or at least faster???

     I do not think this is a left-centered problem, but the left certainly participates in this. Health and medicine are very personal, yet universal, and complicated areas of contemporary conversation.

    Assigning 'blame' is not my intention. I am more interested (as a non medical person) in how information and communication (like personal stories and links etc) are transmitted these days. I was at first slightly offended by Chait's article, but then I got to considering it. I also think that with such massive and fast change in the 'electronic age' style of social and cultural communication that we, as in everyone (including me) are in a steep learning curve. I think lots of mistakes are made - and I include myself in that - as has been pointed out to me by friends and family members when I had to stop and think, "OMG you are right, I'm sorry, I'll try to learn". Nevertheless they have not tried to dismiss or shut me down which helps. The internet is such a fascinating thing.

    Parent

    Pretty sure all it takes... (none / 0) (#151)
    by unitron on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 01:48:58 PM EST
    ...is one infected person regardless of their political persuasion, assuming that they're old enough to have one.

    But yeah, the more people per unit of area, especially when it's an indoor area, the easier it is for stuff to spread.

    Parent

    I live on the West Coast. (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:43:01 PM EST
    And my impression of the vaccine war is that it is happening everywhere in the country. And the opposition to vaccinations is not limited, or primarily, a leftist issue.

    Economic class seems to play a bigger role in determining one's position on this issue. Many of the biggest concentrations of children whose parents opt out of vaccinations are found in wealthier areas. Boulder, CO, Marin County, CA, the west side of Los Angeles.

    Homeschooled children are another group with a higher incidence of unvaccinated children.

    Parent

    No, you're not crazy. (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 02:59:37 AM EST
    One possible explanation is provided in today's New York Times by a self-labeled conservative, Ross Douthat, in "The Loud, Proud Left"  His theory is that cultural causes, race, sex, identity, are appealing because all the real battles have been won or lost, are over, forgotten, abandoned or blocked.

    But the gold is in the comments

    As regards the PC-police, you and Chait may be among the few paying attention to this nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, it's still the economy, stupid - and Democrats forget this at their peril.

    From where I sit, it is a defining feature of the later Obama years because of the intense disappointment that Obama did not stand up for what we thought he believed in. He governed as moderate-Republican. Now we are threatened with a Democratic candidate who will be even more Republican, a real neocon at heart.

    It is about not standing up for what is right. It is about compromising with crazies, to govern as Republicans not quite as bad as the worst of them. If we wanted a Republican as President, we'd have voted Republican.

    When lefties point out injustice after injustice after injustice, the Chaits of the world accuse them of questing after unicorns and admonish them to tone it down. Because, Republicans.

    One can only wish that it would happen to other pet conservative causes such as voodoo economics, globalization, tax cuts for the rich, warming denial, financial deregulation, attacks on social programs like Social Security and Obamacare, and the entire litany of failed idiocies that have come to characterize American conservatism. This is where the weakness of the Democrats really lies: Neither the Clintons nor Obama were brave enough to take these idiocies on, leaving the less educated members of the public believing, improbably, that the party that presided over the greatest economic disaster since the Great Depression is better for the economy than the party that has for the last three quarters of a century produced better economic results in almost every presidential term.



    Parent
    That has almost nothing to do (none / 0) (#140)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:55:59 AM EST
    with the concept of PC, but thanks for sharing anyway.

    Parent
    Slado, the difficulty is (3.00 / 2) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:24:42 AM EST
    and I have been a long time coming to this conclusion, is that words no longer mean what they did.

    The word "Liberal" meant support for minority rights, including gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, freedom of speech and a right to peacefully assemble.

    Enter the Vietnam war. The Right labeled the protesters "liberal." As social issues blossomed the term "Limousine Liberal" came to mean the "rich," mostly college educated, demanding an expansion of welfare and of other benefits. Legalization of MJ was added to the mix as well as single payer health insurance. The often violent Vietnam war demonstrations finalized the transition. Liberal became the Left in the media.

    Conservatives were co opted. To the opposition of big government, firm support for the constitution, a mix of social issues, many supported by the Left, was tossed in. The Right, watching the success of the Left, brought politics in. You can no longer be for limited government in many areas, expanded in others, without being a "Liberal."

    OTOH, you can't believe in many "liberal" positions, but against them in others, without being a "Conservative."

    The truth is that we no longer have "Liberals" and "Conservatives."  We have "Left" and "Right" and many people in both groups are very much opposed to anyone who doesn't totally agree with them.

    This can be seen in the blogs of both sides.

    The country is trending to the Right outside the big cities. The cities remain firmly to the Left.

    Talkleft has been around a tad over 12 years. Just as FNC and MSNBC have become more fixed in their positions the commentators here have become more fixed and many who debated have left. Actual debate, without snarks, on divergent views has become less and less and most of the debate is between "Left" commentators over small points of policy with an occasional fight between supporters of different politicians. Like most civil wars they tend to be the most violent.

    This, of course, is neither bad or good. It just "is."

    Parent

    Have a 5, Jim. It's on the House. (none / 0) (#138)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 01:58:54 AM EST
    I'm tired of this pettiness.

    Parent
    To take one point (none / 0) (#141)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:03:49 AM EST
    of his, sure, you can be for limited government in one area, and the expansion of government in other area without being a liberal.

    Look at anti-abortionists, for example.  They want the government telling women what they can do with their bodies, which, call me crazy, I see as a call for increased governmental action, not limited government.

    I could go through and point out the other inconsistencies in his rant, but I think you can find them without my help.

    See?

    You probably thought I was being a big meanie instead of having a valid point.

    Parent

    Feedback (none / 0) (#2)
    by MKS on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 04:26:06 AM EST
    If you cite Fox News,  it is a non starter.

    Being dismissed:  This is a cite with "Left" in its title.  Some debates have been had so many times, to raise the same tired GOP talking points is...well, pointless.

      Cite new evidence from a credible source, and you probably get a better response....

    From my perspective, I believe I understand the GOP all too well.  Appeals to Reason and Compassion that liberals tend to want to make are ineffective.  Conservatives are not moved by Reason and Compassion but by Power and Money.

    Beat the GOP and they become reasonable.

    Parent

    Fox News (none / 0) (#3)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:26:04 AM EST
    Aren't you basically proving my point by making that statement?

    I looked up the definition of liberal and Google says...

    Open to new behaviors or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
     

    So then I looked up Progressive and Google says...

    Favoring or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.

    If you won't even consider reading a link or considering the general message are you open to opinions?  

    Just seems that too many on both sides are locked into looking at the world through tunnel vision of their own making and miss stuff because they never look around.

    It's why I love this site.  It challenges my views but can also strengthen them because in both cases I expose myself to the message straight from thee horses mouth and not through a filter of my own partisanship.

    Thanks for the feedback.  

    Parent

    Not trusting Fox (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by MKS on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 02:58:34 PM EST
    is based on facts and experience.

    Being liberal does not mean being a sap, and falling for the propaganda at Fox.

    Present new facts; different issue.

    And, your discussion needs more facts for it to be intelligible to me.  You assume out the gate the conservative talking point that liberals quash free speech by being too "PC."

    You have already framed the debate in a way that is objectionable.  State a concrete example.    

    Parent

    Yes - there is a difference between being insulted (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ruffian on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:20:51 PM EST
    at insensitive unPC language, and not believing the absolute BS that is thrown out there. BS is BS not because it is not PC...but because it is BS.

    Parent
    And conservatism is the opposite of liberalism (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:28:11 AM EST
    Definition of conservative: "Disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change."

    Presenting genuinely liberal people with statu-quo ideas will generally get you nowhere rhetorically.  And that would seem pretty self-evident. Conservatism, by its nature, is averse to the reality of evolution, beyond the biological debate. That is why most beneficial changes to this nation have come by way of those people who were unafraid to be unpopular or accept the status-quo, since, you know, very little positive change occurs by going in reverse.

    Not to say that I, as a genuinely liberal person, cannot admit when I am full of sh*t: the day 9/11 happened, I reflexively thought it was Saddam Hussein, too. Then I learned a few things, and I changed my mind. Before I had a child, I had much less "liberal" ideas about raising my son. But the lessons of my own neglect and abuse FORCED me to be much more cautious than other people. But conservative ideas about economic domination have made it all but IMPOSSIBLE for one parent to commit themselves to child-rearing in a manner which is probably best for the child. So conservatism's hypocrisy in that area has destroyed the very thing it claims to value.

    One lesson of history is that appealing to "stay the course, just ride it out, this is the best we can do" rarely works, because the course of human existence is forward movement, not backward or even stagnation. Life, by its very nature, is liberal.

    People, of all stripes, tend to be locked into their paradigms. But, again, expected a social philosophy committed to social change is not going to be swayed by arguments that appeal to the status-quo, because there is nothing much about the status-quo to be admired politically. Even when we had an economy that allowed one parent to work full-time and another, mom, to stay home, was riddled with prejudices and paradigms that had to be broken for society to advance in these other areas.

    Peace.

    Parent

    Excellent points (none / 0) (#23)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:48:32 AM EST
    Life is liberal, you make a great observation there when you say that.

    However in my view government is not part of life it is just a tool.  If life is always changing then I'd like to let it change more naturally rather than have an entity like government change or even try to affect the outcome.

    That is where I think liberal politics falter the most. Yes they see changes required but they don't look past the immediate need. When you create change you create other things as well and sometimes those other things are worse than what you were trying to fix.

    Great post.

    Parent

    Government is definitely a tool and (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Anne on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 11:01:39 AM EST
    conservatives and liberals do not agree on how that tool should be used.  

    Conservatives are so busy panicking that the government is going to take money out of their pockets and "give it" to those who don't deserve it, that they fail to see the big picture that shows that when those with the least have more, everyone benefits.

    Conservatives want to control the most personal and private areas of people's lives, and they want to use the government to do that; liberals want the government to protect us from that.

    Contrary to your belief that liberals can't or don't or won't consider the unintended consequences of the changes they want to make, liberals are more willing to deal with those consequences if they are in service to a greater good;  apparently, conservatives define "greater good" as "what's good for me," and as long as more money is going into their pockets, it is they who don't give a flying fig about consequences.  I mean, so what if deregulating the oil and gas industry means more pollution and damage to the environment?  Most seem okay with trading that off for more money.  So what if deregulation of the financial sector means possibly cratering the economy, as long as it creates more opportunities for more money to be made by a small percentage of people?

    So, sorry - just one more thing we don't agree on.  In general, I find conservatism to be selfish and mean a lot of the time, lacking in respect for the essential humanity of people, who seem to be valued on the basis of how much financial benefit can be derived from them.  If there's no benefit, conservatives don't see the point in wasting time "giving" them anything.

    Conservatives would even rather "these kinds" of people not even be able to vote, and work very hard to accomplish that goal.  

    It's a very passive/aggressive mindset: work to deny women the right to make reproductive health choices, then punish them - and the children they bring into the world - by working to deny them any support.

    I don't understand people who think this way; it makes no sense to me.  And the arguments and explanations I've heard have not made it more understandable.

    Parent

    What makes it all the more frustrating, (none / 0) (#168)
    by NYShooter on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 08:56:07 PM EST
     maybe depressing is a more apt term, is that they cloak themselves in religion and the bible. How are we ever going to pass any meaningful legislation when they not only bask in their ignorance, but wear their hypocrisy like a badge of honor.

    The Muslims, at least, try to live up to their Prophet's teaching. Our religious Right go to church every Sunday, and spit on their Lord the other six days.

    What's even more sickening though, is that the conservatives know that they're lying, sub-human scoundrels, but they don't care. What's our Democrats' excuse? They don't see a campaign issue here?


    Parent

    I don't think liberals are not looking (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by ruffian on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 11:17:35 AM EST
    past the immediate need...liberal programs like SS and universal health care go into great detail to plan for eventualities that can be foreseen, and leave room for adjustments over time as needed. I think conservatives seem so afraid of consequences they cannot foresee that they don't want to make any changes at all. I see that in the debates over social issues and financial alike - 'something might happen that makes me uncomfortable, or cost me money - NO!'

    The liberal view does take more confidence in people's ability to solve problems and govern themselves.

    Parent

    Case in point: free community college (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 12:41:49 PM EST
    for some, Pres. Obama's recent proposal, which did notbinclude the details v

    Parent
    Looking past the immediate need (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:13:38 AM EST
    This is how conservatism allows people to suffer, by arguing that money, somehow, is more important, more real, than actual human beings IN NEED, in the short run and long run. When the FACTUAL REALITY is that nations sovereign in their own fiat currency can NEVER go financially bankrupt. Here, in my opinion, is the single biggest issue: that conservatives treat money as more important than people, and that liberals, when they fight hard against that notion (aka Occupy) get their heads bashed in, literally. Right wing lunatics can bring weapons to a political rally and have nothing happen (and this is fact), but it's liberals, actually sacrificing something, camping out in the streets, suffering the slings and arrows of police power, who are then demonized as somehow being radicals and kooks. Whatever. Listen, we exist in a modern board game, with dollars as game pieces. Conservatives tell liberals those game pieces matter more than the immediate suffering of human beings. Liberals, genuine liberals, argue the opposite. I know the side that is being more truthful and more humane. And I am on that side. For good.

    Parent
    The prospect (none / 0) (#38)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 12:15:26 PM EST
    of adverse unintended consequences hangs over all human endeavor and absolutely should be guarded against. Every move we make both as individuals and as a group has consequences short term, long term, good and bad. Your point seems to be that liberals want to take all the short term benefits they can while ignoring the bad long term effects while in your view conservatives are taking the wiser long view. However, as the saying goes, in the long run we will all be dead. I agree that rashly throwing money and ill conceived government programs at existing and future problems is not the best way to go, but sitting on our hands doing nothing out of an abundance of caution is even more dangerous to our current and future well being as a society.

    Parent
    before i had my child (none / 0) (#27)
    by Dadler on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:07:07 AM EST
    I had much MORE liberal ideas about raising children.

    Egad, make yourself clear, man!

    Oy.

    Parent

    The left (none / 0) (#14)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:18:32 AM EST
    talks a good PC game but the right are the real pros. Take immigration, when Rubio, Perry, Jeb and others showed the slightest deviation from the hard line they are castigated and forced to walk back. On AGW McCain and Graham were forced to shut up on their moderate views. Gun control, trickle down economics...on and on the tenets of conservatism must not be questioned. Conservatism can not fail, it can only be failed is the overarching mantra on the right.

    Parent
    It has always seemed to me the right (none / 0) (#16)
    by ruffian on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:35:09 AM EST
    polices true political correctness, in the true sense of the term, a lot more than the left. Deviance from the accepted party line has true political consequences on the right. That is why I have always hated the term 'PC' for what Chait is describing - and IIRC the term was originally used to describe true political landmines on the right, and they used their jujitsu expertise to turn it back on the left.

    To Chait's point, I think that what seems like oversensitivity to people that are not in a particular group is a natural reaction to people that feel themselves being insulted or marginalized. They have a right to speak up about it. Does that make it harder for progressives to come together on the larger points of policy? Maybe a little, but I really have not seen that happen much. What we have is a voter turnout problem, and I don't think it is the PC police that hamper that.

    Parent

    Agreed. Chait's (none / 0) (#43)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:01:51 PM EST
    charge of "left-wing ideologic repression," first of all, does not involve offense against the First Amendment--although not clear in his article, he is not speaking to the idea of government making a law that halts anyone from saying what he or she wants.  

    However, Chait seems to be advocating for the halting of debate or discussion by individuals or groups by reducing calls for social justice and accountability.  So, Chait's left-wing chiding is more about opposition to criticism or recognition of certain opposing positions than it is about left-wing repression of ideas.  His examples cleanse any doubt or any benefit of same.

    From a larger perspective, I, also, believe that "p.c." is passe.  An unwillingness to keep up, at best, or at  worst, a grudging adjustment of  prejudiced or offensive attitudes in manners of expression.  

    Parent

    I find (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:40:38 PM EST
    that the right uses "PC" anytime they get caught being hateful like calling Hispanics names or something and then they play the PC card. They hide behind it when throwing sexism around, racism around or any other type of thing. It's just to me something they use to try to shut down the conversation.

    Parent
    My sister-in-law and I got into the funniest fight (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:59:38 PM EST
    Recently.  I can't believe a grown woman takes Rush Limbaugh's talking points about Obamacare forcing men to pay for birth control they don't use...blah blah blah but she does.

    As we were arguing I used the word pen*s as in if she is going to look at it this way, women pay for all these male only health needs.  I think that word is a medical term, but I guess she doesn't and she just throws the word p*$$y down, asking why does the p*$$y get special legislation.  That is not a medical term, that's a derogatory term....I don't think she understands the difference though :)

    I flip out.  I start yelling in the phone that we have to have specific legislation for the p*$$y because the religious right insists on making the p*$$y an evil thing that must be punished therefore it now has to have specific protection.

    My husband runs into the kitchen and snatches the phone from me, and just immediately assumes that because I am the liberal I introduced the offensive word to the conversation.  Because Conservatives are people more reserved in speech, UNTIL THEY CANT STAND IT ANYMORE AND THEIR HATE VOMITS OUT :)

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 02:48:51 PM EST
    they're like volcanoes it would seem.

    I had a sister in law like that one time. She got a job due to my brother but seemed to think she got it all by herself. She was always talking about "those people" but basically what it boiled down to was like most conservatives it's okay for her to do whatever but not anybody else.

    Parent

    Good points (none / 0) (#93)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 02:00:19 AM EST
    Your observations are the the reason I became a libertarian versus a conservative.

    While sympathetic to some of the views of social conservatives I cannot support using the power of the state to enforce morality and more simply am bored by the constant attention "right wing" conservatives give to such issues.

    The culture war to me is really fought (and it shouldn't be a war) outside politics within the daily interactions of people and changing values.   This is something most conservatives or right wingers simply miss.   Like it or not the tide on issues like sex and gay rights is going to change with or without their input because it affects too many people to simply stay stuck in time.   What is acceptable today will not be tommorrow and fighting against such change is mostly self defeating.

    If government is limited in both its power and scope of how it touches our daily lives then it neither promotes nor condones social change that should be allowed to change based on our personal rights and choices.  The only action government should take is adding liberty (right to vote).

    What most liberals miss is this is why the tea party came to prominence in the first place.   Frustrated while still conservative Republians needed a way to focus on fiscal issues rather then get tied down in the moral games that turn so many non conservatives off.  

    I still think liberals use the sames tactics but id be hard pressed to say one does more then the other.

    Parent

    The Chait piece is about (none / 0) (#181)
    by ZtoA on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 11:55:38 PM EST
    liberals shutting down other liberals. Evidently on TL that is not a conversation anyone wants to have. So the conversation has not really touched on that, but has been turned into, basically, "which is better? Liberal/conservative, left/right". Much easier conversation to have.

    Parent
    I'm finding the Loretta Lynch confirnation (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by Anne on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:00:48 AM EST
    hearings troubling:

    On matters of policy, Ms. Lynch called capital punishment "an effective penalty" and said she disagreed with Mr. Obama's statements that marijuana was no more harmful than alcohol. She called the National Security Agency's collection of American phone records "certainly constitutional, and effective."

    And she'll be better than Holder, because...?

    Does it really matter? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:55:47 AM EST
    Whoever sits in that chair is going to do what Obama wants them to do.

    She may have a few views that you don't like but bottom line is she's going to do what the inner circle of Obama's White House wants her to do.

    Parent

    ugh... (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by sj on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 12:15:07 PM EST
    That's all. Just ...ugh..

    Parent
    Even (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:41:41 PM EST
    Obama's statement that mj is no more harmful than alcohol is way off the mark, in my opinion.

    I have never heard of a mj smoker developing the kind of illnesses, including organ failure, that plaque people who consume alcohol.

    I guess it's the best Obama could do, but it is really misleading to equate the two when alcohol is, I believe, demonstrably more dangerous.

    Parent

    She's a U.S. Attorney. Whaddya expect? (none / 0) (#83)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:53:36 PM EST
    ... from House Speaker John Boehner to address Congress, which was issued the the Speaker without bothering to first inform President Obama, and was further scheduled to take place only two weeks before Israeli voters go to the polls, appears to be blowing up very badly in the faces of both men.

    Obama has formally declined to meet with the prime minister during his visit to D.C., a clear and unapologetic snub. White House officials have accused Ron Dermer, the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. who negotiated with House Republicans behind the president's back, of being more concerned with Netanyahu's political fortunes than with safeguarding his country's best interests in Washington.

    Sen. Dianne Feinstein -- who's certainly no shrinking violet on the subject of Israeli-U.S. relations -- told the Israeli daily Ha'aretz that Netanyahu's prospective speech to Congress in the midst of the Israeli election campaign was "highly inappropriate," and has denounced Boehner's invitation as a reckless attempt to undermine the president's sensitive nuclear diplomacy with Iran.

    Belated attempts by Netanyahu to reach out to Sen. Harry Reid and House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi have been politely but firmly rebuffed. The American Jewish community, which staunchly supported Obama in both the '09 and '12 elections, is upset with Speaker Boehner and the GOP for their decision to bypass protocol and not inform the White House before inviting the Israeli PM.

    And voters in Israel are angry at both Netanyahu and Ambassador Dermer for having apparently created a serious rift in Israeli-U.S. relations, by openly allying themselves with one major U.S. political party at the expense of the other.

    Public opposition to Mr. Netanyahu's once-seemingly secure re-election bid has surged in the wake of his diplomatic fiasco, with a formal center-left alliance between the Labor and Hatnuah parties now posing a serious threat to unseat the prime minister's Likud-coalition government in the March 17 elections.

    Three words: Good. Stay tuned.

    A mis-play (none / 0) (#44)
    by christinep on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    Sometimes the divide and conquer tactic has a glitch.  Boehner & Co. seem to have misjudged the situations ... for example, maybe they should really try to understand and get to know the Jewish community here and abroad before one of their bumbling plays at attempting to divide or cause a rift with groups who usually vote decisively Democratic.

    The inept handling by Repub leadership here, I suspect, will be replicated when Mr. Speaker decides it is time to reach Latinos in the coming years.  

    Parent

    ... to Speaker Boehner's actions have a lot more to do with his willful violation of public protocols, than his inept misreading of American Jewry's political orientation. Frankly, we should all be alarmed that he was talking with Prime Minister Netanyahu without first notifying the State Department, at the very least.

    Simply put, Boehner should not be negotiating with a foreign leader behind the president's back, particularly when it's clearly part of an effort to undermine the administration's diplomatic initiatives regarding a third party, which in this case is Iran.

    Nor should the Israeli ambassador have taken it upon himself to discuss such matters with the president's political opposition. Throughout history, ambassadors around the world have been expelled -- or worse -- for doing far less. Were I Obama, I'd insist to Israel that Ambassador Dermer be replaced, upon pain of his formal expulsion and deportation should Netanyahu's government fail to heed that demand.

    And of course, I need not point out to you what the Republicans would have been saying in 2007-08, had then-Speaker Pelosi invited, say, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to address Congress without first notifying President Bush. And had that ever occurred, such outrage would've been entirely justified. The governing doctrine of separation of powers grants the president, and not Congress, the authority to conduct our foreign policy and negotiate with other sovereign powers on our behalf.

    Further, it's been an unspoken but nevertheless longstanding bipartisan protocol in the United States that our domestic politics stops at shore's edge. That's because nothing good can ever come from the unwarranted solicitation of support from foreign leaders and dignitaries by non-authorized individuals, particularly when it's to encourage foreigners to choose sides in our internal arguments, disputes or -- Heaven forbid! -- elections.

    That wise policy should be applicable to any country's domestic politics, not just the United States. And that's why a broad swath of the Israeli public is terribly upset with their prime minister right now.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Oh, yes, I understand (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by christinep on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:07:46 PM EST
    My immediate raspy comment about Boehner's bone-head move was an angry reaction to the obvious, in-your-face disregard for protocol and the ramifications in terms of its message of overall disrespect for the roles of the branches of government.  Your discussion here of the significance of the diplomatic insult is important.

    To reframe my subsidiary point: For some reason, it struck me that Boehner & Repubs surrounding him also thought that they had stumbled on to a wedge issue ... as in the divisive routine the Repub group had practiced effectively where the previously hysterical "social issues" could be injected (see, e.g., 2004 presidential campaign and Ohio, Michigan and religious views.) These guys are constantly on the lookout for ways to divide the opposition ... while not too successful in finding black candidates to front for Repub positions, whenever they locate a West or a Carson, the potential wedge person is highlighted often and loudly; while McCain-Palin failed (praise be), the "looky here" at this example of womanhood aspect was an obvious attempt at a wedge used to define & divide types of women; and--as the NYT has lately mentioned and specifically noticed, Repub players are loving them a Hillary/Elizabeth match (mudwrestling?)in a "who is more liberal or less corporate" deliberate wedge within the party. Of course, it shouldn't be the wedge-drive that determines whether a person runs ... it shouldn't persuade, nor should it inhibit.

     What is observable, from time to time, has been the Repub gotcha attempts using various forms of wedge ... and, imo, that is a reason that animated the serious breach of protocol, because it fits into a wishful thinking on the part of the Repubs that the American Jewish community should now be moving in their direction where various bombing campaigns in the Mideast (ostensibly to protect Israel) are sometimes urged.  

    I think that Boehner, etc. fall prey to the thought that voting percentage changes are at hand... you know, not unlike the pronouncement that California is within their grasp every election-year October.  With this blatant Netanyahu maneuver, they stumble again.

    Parent

    I'm quite certain (none / 0) (#120)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 02:50:41 PM EST
    that my strong support for Israel doesn't need any reinforcing. And, I try to keep my criticisms regarding some of Israel's behaviors in abeyance due to the very real danger of her very existence being at stake.

    But, this thing, this incredible, incomprehensible blunder on Bibi's part is so mind-numbingly stupid, that I'm left almost speechless. I have to seriously wonder if Netanyahu's mental state is functioning properly. I mean, he's a highly skilled political heavy weight. What kind of unforgiveable miscalculation did he commit that made him think he could drive a wedge between Our President, and the American people?

    "speechless" is the only word that comes to mind. There's no getting around this mess he created. "Damage control" of the highest order is his only hope. He should, and, I mean this literally, drop to his knees, and do a Jimmy Swaggart, tear filled mea culpa, maybe claiming some sort of prescription malfunction.

    The Israeli people have kept him in power, primarily for one reason: He's not gun-shy versus Hamas, and the other elements there, and, however crudely, he will keep them safe. When your children have very real bulls eyes painted on their young hearts every time they leave their homes, and sometimes within, you can understand why the voters made the choices they did.

    But, this time, Bibi-Baby, this time there's no defending you. When I, a guy who was at Newark airport, catching a plane to Israel, to volunteer for their Army, during the '67, 6-day war, when I say, "Mr.Prime Minister, there comes a time, well, you know the rest, the time has come. So, thank you for your service, and, Buh-Bye."

    P.S. The "war" was over before my "papers" had been approved. But, I was ready to go, although, trading the jungle for the desert wasn't #1 on my list of things I'd love to do.

    Parent

    Ron Dermer (none / 0) (#61)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 04:39:01 PM EST
    seems to be more of a Republican operative than an Ambassador. In fact, the American born Dermer was a protege of the Republican operative, Frank Luntz.  The now Israeli citizen is called "Bibi's Brain," which is re-assuring in that at least someone is providing some gray matter to Netanyahu.

    While Dermer did seriously breach diplomatic protocol (he was with Secretary Kerry shortly before the announcement and did not mention the invitation), I believe the president's understated response is appropriate.

    Making Dermer persona non grata, or expelling him, goes much too far.  Our relationship with Israel is greater and more important than the  personalities of the moment--not withstanding the frustrations of dealing with Dermer and Bibi.

    Parent

    Thank you. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:58:39 PM EST
    Knowing Mr. Dermer's professional background as a GOP operative certainly clarifies his actions and makes them understandable. Not forgivable, by any means, but at least now I can see where he's coming from.

    Parent
    Apparently (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by sj on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:16:44 PM EST
    It's enough to just worry about the militarization of police. Saves the PTB from having to do anything about it, except for maybe more militarization.

    The New York City Police Department announced on Thursday it plans to introduce an anti-terror strike force armed with rifles and machine guns, television station WCBS reported.

    The force will be "designed for dealing with events like our recent protests, or incidents like Mumbai or what just happened in Paris," Police Commissioner Bill Bratton said, according to the television station.

    Yeah, because the recent protests were just like terrorism, amiright?

    via Digby.


    A new one for the lexicon. (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 07:00:29 AM EST
    WASHINGTON, Jan 30 (Reuters) - Outgoing Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said in an interview on Friday the United States might eventually need to send non-combat ground troops to Iraq to help turn back Islamic State forces.

    "Non-combat ground troops".

    That's a new one.

    "Non-combat ground troops" sounds to me like being semi-pregnant.

    Maybe someone can 'splain.

    Rove compares Benghazi conspiracy (none / 0) (#4)
    by Yman on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:30:29 AM EST
    ... to birtherism and warns against it.  Said he suspects she might want Benghazi attacks like Obama "wanted" the birther attacks.

    Even conservatives have to admit the wingers make them look silly at a certain point.

    Tobe is no longer (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:24:09 AM EST
    Someone I liste too very seriously.

    He is more of a Limbaugh at this point then a serious news analyst.  Which is a shame because he could give good insight having been there done that but oh well.

    Parent

    slado: you note that you differentiate (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by christinep on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 12:52:22 PM EST
    as to whom to take "seriously."  For many of us, taking Fox News with the old grain-of-salt is similar to the differentiation on what source usually isn't even worth the listen.  For me, especially, the demonstrated conservative pandering with the majority of the Fox commentators together with the demonstrated intermingling of news & ownership editorial stance makes it nigh impossible to take seriously.  Maybe if Roger Ailes let go....

    Ailes used the Fox vehicle as an extended campaign.  If one is interested in studying, following the framing of a matter into political weaponry--methodically & continually--then the Fox approach to news would be a case in point. Otherwise, I consider what purports to be news broadcast by Fox as presumptively manipulative.  It is more an issue of journalistic credibility--or, precisely, lack thereof--that cause many not of the rightist political tilt to steer clear of manufactured hyperbole (except for occasional monitoring purposes.)

     That, my friend, is not a PC decision anymore than learning via experience where to find fairly accurate information.  Ah ... the adage "Consider the source."

    Parent

    All these (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:59:19 AM EST
    "reports" surrounding Benghazi from the likes of Fox News etc were more for the benefit of GOP "fleecing the rubes" than anything else. I mean they had some people so worked up about it they were screaming for Obama to be impeached over it.

    Parent
    Speaking of 'fleecing the rubes," (none / 0) (#19)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:47:31 AM EST
    Wonkette ran a story about a Mother Jones story describing the way Mike Huckabee's PAC paid family members $400,000 and a Politico story about tea party PACs that benefit almost nobody but the consultants and con men who run the PACs.

    Since the tea party burst onto the political landscape in 2009, the conservative movement has been plagued by an explosion of PACs that critics say exist mostly to pad the pockets of the consultants who run them. Combining sophisticated targeting techniques with fundraising appeals that resonate deeply among grass-roots activists, they collect large piles of small checks that, taken together, add up to enough money to potentially sway a Senate race. But the PACs plow most of their cash back into payments to consulting firms for additional fundraising efforts.


    Parent
    This (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 11:23:39 AM EST
    comes as no surprise to me. I live in the same county as Jenny Beth Martin and the reason she was screaming about a letter from the IRS really had to do with the fact that she didn't anybody to look at what she was doing with the money.

    Parent
    Not to say (none / 0) (#12)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:10:58 AM EST
    He's not right about this point.

    What they should question is her strategy for Lybia in the first place and what a mess her and others created.

    NY Times

    Focusing too much on Benghazi probably helps her because it takes the focus off the original error she made by getting us involved there in the first place.

    Parent

    But they can't focus on the original error (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by ruffian on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:38:28 AM EST
    because didn't a lot of the GOP support it too?

    So they have to make up an issue if they want to talk about it at all.

    Parent

    All policies should be questioned (none / 0) (#22)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:37:56 AM EST
    however when it breaks down to a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario the criticism becomes ridiculous. Some of the same voices that are saying our intervention in Libya is wrong are the same ones saying our lack of intervention in Syria is a disaster. I think both sides have a tendency to hate the messenger without even listening to the message, I just think the right  is never really willing to let go of the hatred of the messenger even when the truth of the message is slapping them in the face. Thus you end up with sideshows such as Benghazi sucking up all the oxygen while the valid debates about our foreign policy are ignored.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:53:14 AM EST
    Remember when I criticize a Democrat I am not naturally defending the conservative position. McCain, Graham, and the usual let's do everything we can with bombs crowd was jbehind Hillary all the way.  

    Obama real sin in Syria was his handling of it verbally and politically. He preach for years that aside must go then he threw his redline and then he did nothing.  

    The end result which was us not getting involved is what I would have advised in the first place.

    Parent

    I see your point (none / 0) (#32)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:45:29 AM EST
    and I do think you see most issues thru realatively  non-partisan lens. I think Hillary is too hawkish and Obama ,like most politicians, too often falls into their own rhetorical traps. "Destroy the evil tyrant" is a tune that plays well on all formats, but the in reality it  not such a simple song.

    Parent
    Rove (none / 0) (#11)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:08:46 AM EST
    Rove compares Benghazi conspiracy to birtherism and warns against it.

    There is as much respect for Rove on the left as there is on the right -- that is, close to none.

    We'll have to wait and see what Rover really thinks about Birtherism when/if Ted Cruz runs.


    Parent

    Rove was over ib 2014 (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:26:59 AM EST
    Jeff Roorda (none / 0) (#18)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:42:26 AM EST
    Romney not running (none / 0) (#26)
    by jbindc on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:01:36 AM EST
    Telks supporters in a call this morning.

    He never was a complete idiot . Wise choice. (none / 0) (#29)
    by ruffian on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 10:22:10 AM EST
    And, just as he (none / 0) (#49)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 01:41:13 PM EST
    discovered poverty.   Looks like the Koch Brothers and other high rollers are going for JEB.    

    Parent
    Or someone else (none / 0) (#74)
    by nycstray on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:38:00 PM EST
    who is younger and hasn't taken their message across the states yet . . .  if you want to read into what Mittens said . . .

    Parent
    The Koch brothers, (none / 0) (#180)
    by NYShooter on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 11:23:39 PM EST
    are planning to spend, personally, plus raise, almost One Billion Dollars in next year's elections. That's just ONE family. And, thanks to Conservatist policies, plus Supreme Court decisions, over the past several decades, we may be past the point of no return regarding our democratic form of government, and the establishment of a real American Oligarchy.

    Parent
    You have got to be kidding. (none / 0) (#54)
    by MKS on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:03:26 PM EST
    This is the first I have heard of this.  He is ahead in all the polls for the Republican nomination, and in the latest Fox poll was tied with Hillary--better than anyone else.

    Parent
    I'm getting the feeling that the (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Anne on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:10:28 PM EST
    people who decide these things for the GOP (people with the last name of "Koch?")have ordained that it's Jeb's turn; if Romney's big money is drying up, what choice does he have?

    There aren't many things that excite me less than the prospect of a Bush v. Clinton election, but I'm getting the distinct feeling that that's where we're headed.

    Argh.

    Parent

    I thought the brothers (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by nycstray on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:44:43 PM EST
    weren't interested in Jeb, but leaning more towards Walker or one of the other fools that showed up at their lil' get together last weekend? I think it was at the same time Jeb and Mittens were hanging together . . .

    Parent
    Yeah, (none / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 04:58:58 PM EST
    that is what i thought too. Jeb is definitely on the outs with the Koch company brothers.

    Kind of interesting that Republicans kind of consider people who live in big cities evil but are going to be funded by at least one who lives in NYC and I would rarely imagine ventures into any part of flyover country.

    Parent

    I also (none / 0) (#67)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:36:05 PM EST
    think that the media are rabid about the prospects of a Jeb/Hillary contest.
    It has all the trappings of a soap-opera - just the way they like it.

    No issues.
    Just soap.

    Parent

    Love you Anne (none / 0) (#142)
    by Slado on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:25:44 AM EST
    I'm right there with ya.

    What the h e double hockey sticks are we going to fight about with these two going head to head?

    Oh sure we can always find something to work ourselves into a lather over but are these two going to spark serious debater over whose core principals are better for the country?

    I seriously doubt it.  Heck on some issues they'll have to get together behind close doors to make sure they don't ssy the same thing.

    Parent

    Now, now ... Slado (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by christinep on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 07:07:36 PM EST
    It is your Republican primary.  And, today, old (or is he "young") Scott Walker announced--for the most part--his support of the old neo-con policy when interviewed by Martha Raddatz.  Yes, he says more than once that he like an "aggressive" approach in the Mideast as to terrorists, etc. and, as he stated more than once, that may require "boots-on-the-ground."

    That Republican primary should be-er--interesting.  Whether it is about foreign policy or immigration or whatever ... hey, somehow, I know that all responses of Hillary Clinton will be definitively and clearly very different.  (But, you play it as you want.)

    Parent

    Romney opts out... (none / 0) (#81)
    by desertswine on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 08:21:32 PM EST
    I for one am going to miss his presence...  the $300 jeans, the rolled up sleeves, the trips to Costco, and who can forget the car elevator. So many pretensions, a world of amusement.

    Parent
    The mansion w/the car elevator is rumored (none / 0) (#95)
    by oculus on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 02:56:48 AM EST
    to be for sale.

    Parent
    Don't worry.... (none / 0) (#98)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 07:11:56 AM EST
    It has been widely reported that Jeb has ordered a gross of $300-no - $500 jeans, many with sleeves that are pre-rolled.

    The props department must be busy.

    I think that tailored bomber jackets are also on sale this month - to be donned when visiting the troops.

    They are available in brown or black leather, or in stylish camouflage green - with matching hats available as an optional accessory.

    Parent

    Liberal vs conservative (none / 0) (#42)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 12:52:50 PM EST
    The biggest difference, and, the only one that really matters, is that Liberals respect the truth, and function in a fact-based universe for the benefit of all, while conservatives distort the truth, and function best in an uneducated universe, for the benefit of a small minority.

    That's pretty much it.


    Wow (none / 0) (#94)
    by Slado on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 02:15:31 AM EST
    Not much empathy for the other side.

    Where do you stand on "moderates"?

    According to Gallup the break down of Americans is...

    Conservative - 38%
    Moderate - 38%
    Liberal - 24%

    Liberals are gaining in numbers though.   Are the 76% of Americans who don't identity as liberals just stupid or confused?

    Parent

    Just to set the record straight, (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 03:14:43 AM EST
    Today's so-called, "Conservatives," are nothing of the sort. They, simply stole the term, probably because it sounds good. I mean, who can argue with being "conservative?" It connotes a sense of calmness, rationality, careful deliberation, studied movements, "steady as she goes," no sudden flights of fancy. Sounds reassuring, doesn't it? And, it should.

    Who could be against someone who is "conservative?" Not me, that's for sure. When I was younger I would think that Liberals and Conservatives were parallel political entities, both equally committed, both with the same goals, just different ways to achieve them. Like two baseball pitchers, a knuckleballer and a fast baller. Both good, both with same goals, just different ways to get there. I would've been proud to be associated with either one. Not anymore.

    We can get into why that is, at a later time. But, I just wanted to clear up the fact that there is nothing "Conservative" about today's Conservatives. It's like I stated in my brief description, the one you responded to. Simply another lie, in a long list of lies. In fact, I feel pretty much comfortable saying that today's Conservatives are what is wrong with the world today, and, one would be hard pressed to find any superlative, venomous, vomit-inducing slur that over-exaggerates the primeval disgust I feel towards these sub-human growths.

    So, I just wanted to get that out so there wouldn't be any confusion as to where I'm coming from regarding today's Conservatives.

    p.s. BTW, I know you're not a Conservative, nor a Libertarian. You may think you are, but, trust me, you're not. It's simply a question of using distorted definitions.


    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    that today's Conservatives are actually Right Wingers..... But I also note that today's Liberals are Left Wingers.

    And the objectives of both groups is to control the country and establish their positions as the accepted norms.

    Parent

    Hey, James, finally a comment (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    that I can't find fault with.

    But, you know, there's that little thing that contradicts your attempt to make it a "two sides of the same coin" sort of thing.

    Yes, you're right, " today's Conservatives are actually Right Wingers..... But I also note that today's Liberals are Left Wingers."

    And, I'll even go so far as to not quibble with your next sentence, "And the objectives of both groups is to control the country and establish their positions as the accepted norms."

    But, you knew there would be a "but," and, it's a pretty big, "BUT," at that. We Liberals, and, I'm speaking for myself here, but I believe for a lot of other Liberals also, we, truly believe in the principal of "a rising tide lifting ALL the boats." And, Conservatives, well, the 1% didn't get that way by "sharing."

    Now, I'm done with this subject. I can see the discussion going on for hours and hours, arguing over every little, out-of-context variable possible. In a nutshell, I, and, most Liberals, simply would reject any gains to our wealth, and, well-being if it came at the expense of those less fortunate than ourselves. That doesn't, in any way, mean there shouldn't be any disparity at all between groups of people. Of course, some people work harder, work longer, and, put forth greater effort. And, naturally, they should be rewarded, accordingly.

    But, regardless of all those good, positive traits I mentioned, the one that means the most, the one that is just irrefutable, the one trait that is more important than all those others put together, is........luck.

    And, since I know we could debate that point for days, weeks, heck, years, I'll just say, thank you, and, buh-bye.

    "Thank you, buh-bye, it's been fun.

    Parent

    The Tea Psrtiers are losing influence (none / 0) (#133)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 09:38:23 PM EST
    witness the recent recantation of supporting Sister Sarah after her latest word salad delivery, and any day now Obama will round them up to rot in FEMA camps secretly spread out throughout the country.

    Parent
    Ah now, don't just run off and hide.. (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 10:13:15 PM EST
    I'm speaking for myself here, but I believe for a lot of other Liberals also, we, truly believe in the principal of "a rising tide lifting ALL the boats."

    Since I've heard Repubs say the same thing I guess the difference is in the meaning of "ALL."

    And, Conservatives, well, the 1% didn't get that way by "sharing."

    Are you saying that all those rich people who give money to Demos are Conservatives??

    Mordiggian, let me know when you actually attend a Tea Party meeting. Trust me, they won't bite.

    Parent

    Well, Jim, you're right (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:56:54 AM EST
    I should go to one, like someone visiting the habitat of a rare and endangered species.

    And you should go to a Democratic meeting in your area, I promise you they won't bite or scratch, and unlike the Tea
    Party meeting, you might even learn something new when you're there.

    😃

    Parent

    Actually I do go to the local meetings (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 09:16:57 AM EST
    A lot of time to do as you please is one of the few advantages of growing old.

    And I learn a lot.

    I see the local Demos trying to win local elections based on local issues. They are desperate to not be identified with the national party. And as the government becomes even more involved in their lives they try to run further away.

    Many wind up in the Repub's house as the 2014 elections clearly showed.

    The Repubs are pretty happy although they worry more about the Tea Party locally and on a larger scale than they do the Demos. I think that is a mistake. Counting eggs as if they were chickens is something us country boys understood stood as foolish at an early age.

    The Tea Party folks continue to defy being categorized. They run from very fiscally conservative but liberal on many social issues, almost Libertarian, to conservative on social issues but liberal on spending and all points in between. A most confusing mix of positions but "consistency is the hobgoblin of little  minds" to steal a phrase from Emerson. A willingness to accept any who want to show up and participate is their strongest point.

    And I must remember to tell them how endangered you have declared them to be. Why I can envision them stretching out on the floor while calling for transportation to the local embalming establishment.


    Parent

    Good for you (none / 0) (#147)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 09:37:23 AM EST
    And you are aware that many on the Left had said that the Democrats should've been more vocal in their support for the President for their campaigns.  

    What Truman said, over 6 decades ago:

    "The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign."

    The example of the Senatorial race in KY, where the candidate refused to state she voted for Obama despite having served as a delegate for him at the 2008 Convention, comes to mind.

    Anyway, this is the reality of the situation today.:

    Note that Palin's accelerated descent this week represents a larger trend within the conservative media. It represents the decline of the tea party wing of the right-wing press and how a once-flourishing enterprise of outside upstarts, with their eyes on disrupting the GOP hierarchy, have in recent years faded in terms of importance and prestige within that sphere.

    For instance, five years ago players like Palin, tea party guru Glenn Beck, and tea party "godfather" Rick Santelli from CNBC were on the cusp of powering of grassroots movement to retake the Republican Party and the country. Beck drew huge cable audiences on Fox News while weaving dark tales of Obama deception, Santelli helped inspire patriot rallies across the country, and Fox favorite Palin surfed political celebritydom and eyed a possible White House run. They represented a new and different brand of media agitators who didn't take the traditional paths to the masses.

    But today they stand deflated. In fact, as the next campaign season looms, all three appear to be vanishing in the media's rear-view mirror.

    Their decline in some way mirrors the popular decline of the tea party itself. While it has successfully altered the conversation within the Republican Party (see 2013's government shutdown), tea party candidates now often struggle to break through, and a recent attempt to tap into mass angst via a Washington, D.C. rally ended in an embarrassing failure.

    Fox News, of course, played a powerful role in creating the anti-Obama tea party movement in 2009 with its endless hyping of rallies and causes. But Fox News long ago seemed to shed its insurgent, tea party affiliation and return to its traditional role of serving as the media equivalent of the Republican National Committee.



    Parent
    Interesting that you quote a (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 03:35:36 PM EST
    far Left source on the Tea Party and again you do so without any personal experience. And my personal experience is that the so-called main line Repubs wish that the Tea Party was as marginalized as Media Matters, and you, wish it was.

    An enemy of my enemy, etc., etc.

    As I have tried to express, albeit mostly unsuccessfully, the Tea Party has always been fragmented and remains so. It has never had a national convention and, to the best of my knowledge, has never registered voters as "Tea Party" although various politicians have claimed to have its support and various individuals have claimed to be the head of the Tea Party or whatever local group that claims to be so. The Constitution Party has tried to bring the Tea Party under its wings but with little success.

    Could the Tea Party morph into a new national party as did the Repubs in 1856? I don't know. I do know that it is difficult to understand a political movement that has such a diverse membership. Perhaps something will happen that will bring the various segments together as the Kansas-Nebraska act did.

    In any event candidates in 2014 with Tea Party backing did rather well with a 70-80% success rate depending on your count. That bodes bad for the Demos if the Repubs can be convinced to not keep being the party of the Better Business Bureau. But their desire to lose works against that.

    And your fascination with FNC is second only to your fascination with the Tea Party. I've never paid much attention to "inside baseball" analysis of media outlets. By and large they seem to manufacture and then kill super stars on a regular basis. e.g. Palin and Coulter both flashed large and now have fell back. I am unsure what that means but doubt a writer from the Left is capable of telling us why. I would opine that Palin and Coulter's brand of eye gouging has grown stale, like Tweety's, and Fox, unlike NBC, is looking for new "death(s) in the afternoon."

    In the meantime CNN and MSNBC continue to be second and third and the over the air networks continue to do such stupid things as completely over hype a winter storm.

    Oh well, if it bleeds it leads.

    With Truman you seem to be crying that the Demo candidates don't be Demos. Given that Truman, my favorite President, successfully concluded one war with the nuclear option and started the MAD strategy against the Soviets I don't see how any of the current Demos can claim to be of his genes.


    Parent

    Interesting that you quote a (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 03:35:37 PM EST
    far Left source on the Tea Party and again you do so without any personal experience. And my personal experience is that the so-called main line Repubs wish that the Tea Party was as marginalized as Media Matters, and you, wish it was.

    An enemy of my enemy, etc., etc.

    As I have tried to express, albeit mostly unsuccessfully, the Tea Party has always been fragmented and remains so. It has never had a national convention and, to the best of my knowledge, has never registered voters as "Tea Party" although various politicians have claimed to have its support and various individuals have claimed to be the head of the Tea Party or whatever local group that claims to be so. The Constitution Party has tried to bring the Tea Party under its wings but with little success.

    Could the Tea Party morph into a new national party as did the Repubs in 1856? I don't know. I do know that it is difficult to understand a political movement that has such a diverse membership. Perhaps something will happen that will bring the various segments together as the Kansas-Nebraska act did.

    In any event candidates in 2014 with Tea Party backing did rather well with a 70-80% success rate depending on your count. That bodes bad for the Demos if the Repubs can be convinced to not keep being the party of the Better Business Bureau. But their desire to lose works against that.

    And your fascination with FNC is second only to your fascination with the Tea Party. I've never paid much attention to "inside baseball" analysis of media outlets. By and large they seem to manufacture and then kill super stars on a regular basis. e.g. Palin and Coulter both flashed large and now have fell back. I am unsure what that means but doubt a writer from the Left is capable of telling us why. I would opine that Palin and Coulter's brand of eye gouging has grown stale, like Tweety's, and Fox, unlike NBC, is looking for new "death(s) in the afternoon."

    In the meantime CNN and MSNBC continue to be second and third and the over the air networks continue to do such stupid things as completely over hype a winter storm.

    Oh well, if it bleeds it leads.

    With Truman you seem to be crying that the Demo candidates don't be Demos. Given that Truman, my favorite President, successfully concluded one war with the nuclear option and started the MAD strategy against the Soviets I don't see how any of the current Demos can claim to be of his genes.


    Parent

    I hate to tell (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    you but the tea party candidates are electoral poison nationally and if you base your strategy on an off year election like Romney did in 2012 you're going to get a shellacking. Honestly though I do hope the GOP runs a tea party crazy that loses in a landslide so we can have a national referendum on the nuts.

    Fox News just hurts Republicans and makes them look crazier than they already are by telling them conspiracy theories couched as news. Case in point Bobby Jindal went to England and regurgitated the "news" that Fox put out there about Birmingham and became the butt of jokes all over Europe. So keep watching Fox and I hope all the Republicans keep staying in that echo chamber because it makes for great comedy.

    Parent

    Huckabee has already said (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:13:26 PM EST
    if the Republican Party rolls over (pun intended) on gay rights he will leave the party and run as an independent.  So they may not have to nominate one to cause the party to implode.

    IMO he would have no trouble financing a campaign that would get enough votes to insure a rebublican loss.

    Parent

    I don't (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 11:32:36 AM EST
    doubt that Huckabee could come up with enough money through the network of evangelicals and churches. And if he's serious about that threat it would maybe not be worth nominating anyone but a far rightie. It's not like Jeb does any better in the polls than Cruz does.

    Parent
    The tea party (none / 0) (#164)
    by FlJoe on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:23:11 PM EST
    has become a Frankenstein's monster especially to the money men who really matter.

    Parent
    Media matters (none / 0) (#156)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 04:04:58 PM EST
    Collects and collates news and information, and has opinion pieces as well.  That you think doing so with respect to Sarsh Palin and the recent repudiation on the conservative side of things since her word-salad speech makes them far-left tells us more about you than any specious readings of your position you want us to believe in.

    Parent
    You are what you eat (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 07:15:55 PM EST
    or should I say, who gives you food to eat.

    Relying on tax returns and websites of wealthy U.S. foundations, a Daily Caller investigation has revealed the sources of more than $28.8 million in funding collected by the liberal Media Matters for America since 2003, the year before its formal incorporation. That sum represents 54 percent of every dollar the organization has raised in its history, making Media Matters a principally foundation-driven -- not citizen-supported -- activist group.

    Ga, if you will go back and read what I wrote you will see that I noted that the prevailing wisdom is that the Repubs must ignore the Tea Party, which is a large part of their base.

    That was not successful in 2006 when the base stayed home over Bush's amnesty position. Nor in 2008 or 2012 when the candidate didn't meet their requirements. Romney in particular did not. He received fewer votes than McCain. They won on a national level in 2010 and 2014 but we don't have a parliamentary system.

    But it does raise the question. If the candidate matched the base better, could the candidate win?

    The experience of Gov. Walker, who has won 3 elections against everything the Demo Left could throw at him, says yes. Is that correct? Neither you, I or anyone else can answer that question.

    As for Jindal, yes, England and France have "No Go Zones" although they seek to call them more politically correct names. We have some suspect areas here.

    Howdy, don't worry. The Repubs aren't gonna change on gay marriage.

    FlJoe - You're right. Now they just can't buy a candidate and expect to win. I mean, what is Soros and the Koch brothers to do??

     

    Parent

    A smear job from Tucker Carlson's (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 05:58:46 AM EST
    Right-wing website?

    You're defined by the company you keep, Jim.  In the case of the Daily Caller, we have this:

    In his first column for the Daily Caller, Nugent defended the NRA from recent criticism of the gun group by sportscaster Bryant Gumbel. While Gumbel suggested the NRA bore some responsibility for gun violence in the United States, Nugent instead falsely argued that gun violence is solely a feature of urban areas and wrote, "Subtract the number of suicides and fatherless gangsters killing other fatherless gangsters and what you have is an America slightly less violent than Mister Rogers' Neighborhood." (On Facebook, Nugent wrote that Gumbel "is drowning in the racist brainwashing koolade cult of denial.")

    The NRA often uses the Daily Caller to promote its agenda. The Caller's "Guns and Gear" section frequently republishes press releases from the NRA's lobbying arm, the Institute for Legislative Action, and often publishes unhinged opinion pieces by NRA CEO and executive vice president Wayne LaPierre and other NRA leaders. Daily Caller and the NRA also have an advertising relationship and readers have been offered discounted NRA memberships.

    Ted Nugent and the NRA.  A draft-dodging statutory rapist and the NRA.

    What were you saying about you are what you eat?


    Parent

    Almost forgot (none / 0) (#171)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 06:03:04 AM EST
    Oh, and quit repeating lies, Jim (none / 0) (#172)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 06:13:18 AM EST

    1. The United West video (see here) and many of the reports on this incident either claim or insinuate that the police did nothing to stop the kids from throwing trash at Ruben and his friends.
    However, in the unedited video, you can see the police intervene once, twice (note the police dragging a kid off at this point--something none of the articles mention), thrice, fourse [sic] (note that this appears to be another arrest or citation? Again, never mentioned in any of the reports I listed), and I'm not going to bother looking for more examples.
    Bottom line: The video lies/misrepresents the truth and each of these reports, either in ignorance (in which case they are examples of bad journalism) or knowingly repeats this lie or fails to challenge it (in the case of The Blaze).

    The DearbornPatch is reporting that there were numerous citations issued relating to this incident:
    "The Wayne County Sheriff's Department, which oversaw security at the festival, did issue tickets to one adult and six youth for disturbing the peace on the first day of the festival while the protest was occurring."
    Here's what the Sheriff's department had to say about the lack of arrests:
    "While two individuals were going to be charged with assault and battery on Friday, we could not locate the potential complainants so those cases were then classified as disturbing the peace," the department said in a statement. "No injuries were reported nor were there requests for medical assistance during the incident in question."
    In other words, here is even more evidence that the police did indeed act to protect Ruben and his crew and to punish those who were causing trouble, in direct contradiction to what The United West's edited video reports.
    ..................

    Update 4: 05-15-13
    The Christian Post is reporting that a federal judge has thrown out Ruben Israel (&co)'s case against the Dearborn police based on this incident last year:
    Judge Patrick J. Duggan decided that the group Bible Believers did not have a case against the Wayne County Sheriff's Office regarding the actions taken at an outbreak of violence at the Arab International Festival in Dearborn.
    "Plaintiffs have cited no authority, and the Court has not located any, for the proposition that free speech rights categorically trump the authority of municipal entities to preserve order and protect public safety," wrote Duggan.
    "The Court finds that the actual demonstration of violence here provided the requisite justification for [the Wayne County sheriffs'] intervention, even if the officials acted as they did because of the effect the speech had on the crowd."

    Link


    Parent

    The claim (none / 0) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 10:32:51 AM EST
    by you was that Media Matters is not a far Left website. The link to The Daily Caller, which is a Right Wing site, proved that Media Matters is funded by various far Left groups.

    The list of Media Matters' foundation funders, 120 in all, reads like a Who's Who of the American progressive movement, including the far-left Tides Foundation ($4,384,702), George Soros' Open Society Institutes ($1,075,000), the Ford Foundation ($966,466), the Sandler Foundation ($400,000) -- endowed by subprime mortgage lenders Herb and Marion Sandler, who once bankrolled the embattled ACORN organization -- and the Schumann Fund for Media and Democracy ($600,000), managed by longtime PBS host Bill Moyers and his son.

    They also include the anti-George W. Bush organization MoveOn.org ($50,000), the Barbra Streisand Foundation ($85,000), the kids' shoes-powered Stride Rite Charitable Foundation ($25,000), the Lear Family Foundation ($55,000) -- endowed by the TV producer and People for the American Way founder Norman Lear -- and the Joyce Foundation ($400,000), whose board of directors included Barack Obama from 1994 to 2002.

    You may find "de nial" in a map of Egypt but the facts are undeniable.

    And I haven't the slightest interest in changing the subject away from your "mistake" to arguing over Ted Nugent and the NRA.

    We all know that Media Matters is of the Left and The Daily Caller is of the Right.

    The discussion was over the Tea Party, a subject you know nothing of beyond what you have read. Nothing wrong with that but I would think you would take your own advice and go to one rather than relying on far Left sources.

    I should go to one, like someone visiting the habitat of a rare and endangered species.

    You could also use some brushing up on your reading skills. I wrote:

    We have some suspect areas here.

    The video shows what it shows. And your link gives us:

    "The Wayne County Sheriff's Department, which oversaw security at the festival, did issue tickets to one adult and six youth for disturbing the peace on the first day of the festival while the protest was occurring."

    What is suspected is this.

    Why were the protesters attacked? I mean we know they were. To repeat, the question is why?

    Charlie Hebdo in miniature???

    Parent

    Moveon dot org (none / 0) (#175)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 11:28:50 AM EST
    Is the same as the NRA on the Left.

    And what does the funding matter, if MediaMatters just reproduces the truth in response to Rright-wing lies? Does MM associate with an admitted draft dodger or not?

    You need to research these RW claims you try to spead here, before posting about them and getting your tuchis handed to you on a silver platter, as in the case of the so-called no-go zones in Dearborn.  I'm sure that if I went to a church carnival or festival of some sort with, say, an upside-down crucifix on a stick or a protest sign with the infamous Pi** Christ photograph on it, that I would find myself in a no-go zone.

    Funny how that works, eh?

    Parent

    Look, you are the one who (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 11:47:09 AM EST
    claimed Media Matters was not a Left wing blog.

    You are the one who used it as a source for your position re the Tea Party. It is an opinion piece.

    I have merely pointed out factually that Media Matters is of the Left and haven't denied that the Daily Caller is Right Wing.

    But all I used it for was to point out the funding of Media Matters. Pure factual information.

    Yet you want to start talking about the NRA and Ted Nugent. That's just changing the subject.

    And the Dearborn video speaks for itself. As for what would happen to you if you acted as described ....all you can do is, once again, speculate.

    I close my part of this conversation to again note that if you want to understand the Tea Party....attend some meetings. I am sure you will be welcome.

    Have a nice day. There's no reason to take this further.

    Parent

    An opinion oiece (none / 0) (#178)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 12:33:53 PM EST
    Backed up by links to facts.

    And I'm sorry that you have to start this, " You brought it up first" as a lame defense to the facts I have brought to the table.  If you don't want to appear as a right-wing nutter, don't quote from right-wing nutter sites, and check out their right-wing nutter stories instead of passing them on because they feed into your paranoia of Islsm as some sort of existential threat to this country.

    Good day to you, sir.

    Parent

    Of course I am right, (none / 0) (#179)
    by FlJoe on Mon Feb 02, 2015 at 05:12:34 PM EST
    more then ever it's follow the money in American politics. You will never have a candidate who is not acceptable to the money boys. Senator Warren would make a heck of a president in my book but the money boys would be terrified, she knows it, we all know it.
    I think over the last two cycles there has been a rise in "boutique" republicans financed by individuals (Gingrich/Adeleson), factions (Huckabee/evangelicals) or himself(the pizza guy).They all get their 15 minutes, mostly to the party's detriment.The Democrats on the other hand have become more "staid" in the process, probably to their detriment. Obama was the so called insurgent in 08 but essentially he was the same generic candidate as Hillary and obviously the money boys saw no downside in him.

    Parent
    Oh and thanks (none / 0) (#143)
    by Slado on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:32:17 AM EST
    For letting me know what I am.  Always good to know.

    No one person can fit into any label but it is obvious that you come into these discussions with preconceived notions of the commentator and that's my overall point.   When you do that you close off your mind to anything that might challenge your views.

    Parent

    Gravitating to certain labels (none / 0) (#119)
    by christinep on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 02:12:44 PM EST
    Throughout the years, an interesting--if not quizzical--factoid emerges about where individuals place themselves and/or how Americans define themselves in terms of the economy and income/household worth.  Most people always consider themselves "middle class."  BTW, that "most" is as in vast majority ... invariably. (I was reminded of that fascinating personal tendency the other day when taking to Google to find the latest definition of Middle Class.  Many articles.)

    While I have not gone to the research for why we Americans have a strong tendency to define ourselves in the middle (aka "moderate") in politics as well, I do remember learning of this phenomenon in political science classes way back when. (Husband, the political science Ph.D., notes that tendency is probably connected to our upbringing with the folkloric teaching that America is a classless society, etc.)

    Parent

    I watched the latest CNN special on the OJ trial (none / 0) (#59)
    by McBain on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 03:50:39 PM EST
    This time they interviewed one of the jurors.  He said he voted not guilty because he felt there was a good chance Mark Fuhrman and co. planted evidence.  I probably would have come to the same conclusion.

    This Juror also said he and the other jurors felt Kato Kalin was an idiot. Maybe that's true but I bet a lot of people would have looked stupid if they were in his position.

    Alan Dershowitz went out of his way to explain how prosecutor Chris Darden "blew it" by having OJ try on the glove in front of the jury.  Dershowitz is probably correct but it seemed like a cheap shot. There must be some bad blood between those two.

    The Simpson criminal trial was the first time I realized how people can be manipulated by the media.  Most people thought O.J. was going to be convicted because they focused more on the media portrayal of Simpson, not the actual evidence vs. burden of proof.    

    I paid close attention (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:07:46 PM EST
    OJ did it, there4 is no doubt.

    Problem was, he left a lot of evidence around.  both victims' blood INSIDE his car, along with his own.  Victim's blood on his sock.

    One glove at the scene, the other at his house along with the murderer's cap.

    Don't get me started.  Fuhrman was no better or worse than an average L.A. cop, but he found the evidence that meant OJ did it.  OJ's team had to destroy his career and life by painting him as someone who framed OJ.

    Please, if you think OJ was framed, give me a story about who could have done it, why and how.  Otherwise drop the subject, because OJ did it.

    Parent

    The best analysis I heard of the trial (none / 0) (#72)
    by McBain on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:32:31 PM EST
    was the LAPD framed a guilty man.  

    "Fuhrman was no better or worse than an average L.A. cop, but he found the evidence that meant OJ did it."

    His discovery of some of the evidence was a little fishy. I didn't care about his use of the N word but still didn't trust him.

    "Please, if you think OJ was framed, give me a story about who could have done it, why and how."

    This is part of the problem with media coverage.  They don't educate people about the burden of proof. It doesn't matter if a juror can't come up with a story of someone else committing the crime. It only matters if the prosecution proved their case.

    My point isn't that OJ was guilty or innocent, rather that the media mislead people.  I'm not positive how I would have voted had I been a juror but it probably would have been "not guilty".  

    Parent

    The evidence is the evidence (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:58:43 PM EST
    ...If you can find ANY way to explain how it got there without Mr. Simpson being the murderer, there is reasonable doubt.  Use aliens if you need to, but explain ALL the evidence.

    If no one can provide an explanation for that evidence having arrived where it was by any means other than OJ being the murderer, and no one has, then there is no reasonable doubt, and OJ did it.

    Please explain how you believe the 175 or so pieces of evidence "Could have been" planted, who "could have" done it, how and why.

    For example, we know both victims' blood and OJ's were inside the car, which was impounded and towed without being opened.  How do you believe all that evidence got there?

    Parent

    But if the jurors don't trust the cops or the (none / 0) (#78)
    by McBain on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:18:47 PM EST
    forensic people, they might not care about all that. The juror who was interviewed on CNN didn't trust Furman and thought the forensic people were incompetent.

    Perhaps you can make a better case than the prosecution did?  What I remember, was way too much time spent on DNA, which allowed the defense to question how it was handled.  The trial lasted far too long.

    Parent

    The verdict in Simpson's trial (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 12:32:13 AM EST
    was pre-ordained the moment the defense hired, jury consultant, Joe-Ellan Dimitrius. Her knowledge of jury bias, body language, pre-disposition, and other psychologies provided the defense with the questions during Voir Dire that guaranteed a pro-defense jury. Marcia Clark, on the other hand, felt she was a better judge of potential jurors than the "hired gun" the defense had hired. Tragically, Clark's skills at jury selection proved to be fatally flawed.

    Look, let's face it, we like to believe that verdicts at trials are determined by the weight of the evidence, or lack thereof. Unfortunately, that has proven to not be the case way too often.
    Clark believed that by having female jurors seated her planned introduction of O'J's history of violence against women could be used effectively against him. Ms. Dimitrus, however, understood that the issue of violence is interpreted differently by black females than whites, and she was proven correct when it counted, at verdict time.

    I won't go over the reams of testimony proving Simpson's guilt, Repack already did that quite effectively. Dimitrius knew what would get the four cops off in the Rodney King trial, and, she went about getting the jurors that would give her the verdict she wanted.

    It, simply proves, once again, that when the issues are, "bias" vs "facts," "bias" wins out every time. It's not that the jurors didn't feel that Simpson was guilty; it's that they didn't care.


    Parent

    There were some other pre trial moves by (none / 0) (#105)
    by McBain on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 10:41:03 AM EST
    the defense (Deshowitz) that have been credited for having a huge impact on the verdict as well.  I believe a lot of what you said there is true but keep in mind the juror who was interviewed by CNN was a hispanic male and his vote was not guilty.

    "It's not that the jurors didn't feel that Simpson was guilty; it's that they didn't care."

    Maybe, but that's just a guess. Maybe your opinion was influenced by media coverage.  That's my guess.

    Parent

    Well, that's what we do here, (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 03:41:35 PM EST
    isn't it? We guess.

    We might call it deductive reasoning, or, judgment, but, since we can't be 100% certain about anything, really, educated guesses will have to do.

    Other than that, I don't have a problem with your comments. Just wondering though, why did you refer to the Hispanic fellow as "The" juror who was interviewed by CNN?" You do know that there were quite a few jurors interviewed after the trial, don't you? And, IMO, it was quite evident that to many (most?) of the jury factors other than admissible, empirical evidence played the decisive roll.

    As to your Hispanic juror who was interviewed by CNN, and had voted, not guilty....so what? That's why I use terms like "most, and, many." Simpson could afford a "Dream Team" of lawyers, and, it's not shocking at all that their expertise could sway a juror, or two.  

    Finally, I don't even have a problem with Jury Nullification, occasionally. Unfortunately, it can be used for evil purposes, as well as for righteous ones.

     

    Parent

    A couple points (none / 0) (#165)
    by McBain on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 05:42:04 PM EST
    "You do know that there were quite a few jurors interviewed after the trial, don't you?"

    Yes I do.  And at least one of them wrote a book. The CNN special I watched, only interviewed one.  Could he have been influenced by the black jurors?  Maybe.  

    "Simpson could afford a "Dream Team" of lawyers, and, it's not shocking at all that their expertise could sway a juror, or two."

    I don't see that as a problem of rich people getting away with crimes.  I see it as the poor people who can't afford decent lawyers being the victims of over prosecuting. Sometimes, when those prosecutors, who are used to convicting  the  under represented defendants, have to deal with a well prepared defense team, they look foolish. Marcia Clark, Jeff Ashton from Casey Anthony, Angela Corey and Bernie de la Rionda from Zimmerman come to mind.

     

    Parent

    I don't even want to think about it. (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:06:35 PM EST
    20 years later, that results of that trial still makes me angry. I know the jury spoke and I can accept its verdict, but that doesn't mean I have to either like or agree with it. And I prefer to think that what happened to OJ later in Vegas was the work of Karma, seeking to restore the equilibrium of the universe.

    Parent
    huh... (none / 0) (#60)
    by sj on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 04:18:59 PM EST
    Most people thought O.J. was going to be convicted because they focused more on the media portrayal of Simpson, not the actual evidence vs. burden of proof.
    I thought it was the other way around.

    Parent
    The media was anti OJ (none / 0) (#69)
    by McBain on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:53:08 PM EST
    They made it seem like the prosecution was winning just about every day in court.  They thought the mostly female jury would like Marcia Clark.

    Parent
    You are conflating (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by sj on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 06:37:22 PM EST
    "most people" with "the media".  The two are not the same thing. Once you do that -- on any topic -- the conversation typically goes off the rails.

    IMO

    Parent

    I never (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:37:09 PM EST
    thought that the media was anti-OJ. I thought that the reporters were largely sycophants. Star struck.

    I liked Marsha Clarke - but wow - Dersh & Co. trampled over her summation with constant interruptions as she was enumerating damning and uncontested evidence - and Ito just let them do it.
    Ito looked like a helpless chump in the face of all those wealthy attorneys.

    Clarke was completely (imo) ineffective in combating their constant interruptions. Her flow was broken.

    The fictitious Alicia Florrick ("The Good Wife") would have done a better job of fending them off than poor Marsha.

    Parent

    I may (none / 0) (#65)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:28:12 PM EST
    be remembering it wrong, but as I recall when Simpson put on the glove, he was wearing a thin plastic glove on his hand already. So the tugging and tussling that he portrayed while attempting to put on the glove was made rather simple for him.

    So how that was made into conclusive evidence that the glove didn't fit has always puzzled me.

    If that was Darden's idea, letting the glove be tried over one of those thin white gloves, I haven't a clue what he might have been thinking about.

    Parent

    I don't think the thin latex glove had much (none / 0) (#70)
    by McBain on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 05:55:09 PM EST
    to do with the black glove not fitting.  Either it wasn't OJ's glove after all or maybe it shrank from all the blood.

    Parent
    I dunno... (none / 0) (#79)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 07:24:33 PM EST
    Those latex gloves are really sticky...

    In any case, there was a rubbery covering over Simpson's hand when he was wriggling around (academy award) "trying" to get the glove on.

    What in the world was Darden thinking?

    What was the point of the latex? To prevent fingerprints from being transferred to a glove that already had been inspected and entered into evidence?

    Nutty. Inexplicable imo.

    Parent

    Darden and the Glove (none / 0) (#85)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:05:54 PM EST
    got a story of their own in the Daily Mail.

    Parent
    I'm with you. That was OJ's academy award (none / 0) (#88)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:28:01 PM EST
    performance.  Forcing him to wear the latex glove never made a bit of sense.

    Nowadays you could see it.  Somebody would be muttering about security and how we can't let those terrrrrrrorist fingerprints lose inside the glove, but back then, nobody was quite that obsessed.

    Parent

    OJ was let go because he was tried in LA (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 12:14:51 PM EST
    rather than by a jury of his peers.

    Blacks had been treated poorly by the police for years and years and there was no way they were going to convict OJ. Every now and then society gets what it deserves.

    Parent

    New York Times: Mr Natural was right (none / 0) (#87)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:08:37 PM EST
    "This analysis looks solid to me," said Max Tegmark, a professor of physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who reviewed the paper at The Times's request. "To me, their measurements mean that there's no evidence of foul play."

    Maybe. Still no explanation for why (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jan 30, 2015 at 09:38:40 PM EST
    only Patriots' balls were affected. All the footballs were on the same field, experiencing the same atmospheric conditions.

    When that little hitch gets explained, then we can talk about how right, or wrong, Mr. Natural was.

    Parent

    Exactly. (none / 0) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 01:27:24 AM EST
    Scientific principles just don't occur randomly or sporadically. When conditions are the same across the board -- or in this case, a single football stadium and field -- you can expect consistent results across the board. Had a number of the Colts' footballs been found to be similarly deflated, the NFL wouldn't have retained outside counsel to investigate the matter, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Parent
    Donald, (none / 0) (#106)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 11:20:47 AM EST
    In no discussion of this issue, save those elsewhere by a few physicists, and in my initial and subsequent post, was the problem of varying boundary values examined or analyzed.


    Parent
    If I seem a little prickly, (none / 0) (#107)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 11:21:27 AM EST
    Donald, there's a reason, nothing to do with you, the football, or TalkLeft.

    I'm a local political activist, although I don't like that word.

    Our group is trying to save our small corner of the world from being overrun by developers.  Our opposition, who self-identifies, loudly, as conservative, paradoxically doesn't want to conserve anything, anything, that is, but what remains when the bulldozers finally run out of fuel.

    Against us they're using BIG lies, little lies, and everything in between.  We cite studies.  They cite I-reckonry.  They use Everybody-knows-isms.  They cite dreams they've had, and I'm not exaggerating.  If you dream it, asphalt will come.  

    They don't care what it costs us because, of course, everybody more houses mean more taxes, right?  Never mind the 153 studies forwarded by us that show the net loss in terms of costs of community services for each new rooftop.  Because "we're different."

    They don't give a damn what's fair or unfair, factual or fiction, anything to get their way.  They string together cliches and assumptions on a scaffold of logical fallacy.  They misrepresent and distort.  They mask their mendacity behind a veneer of public politeness, and act all aghast when one of us reacts with anger.  They've turned neighbor into a dirty word.

    They're less educated and less prosperous, far less liberal, (although we're a mix) and have successfully blamed our group for everything that's gone wrong with their half-a$$ed plans for the past ten or fifteen years.  They have screwed up royally, burying us in debt and pushing the school system to within $37,000 of bankruptcy.   We would have been completely bankrupted if our group hadn't blocked further lunacy with referendums and a subsequent election ten years ago.  

    If you really want to hear vitriol, mention Obama to them.  He's the only thing they hate more than us.

    The asphalt addicts are winning.  Their framing suffices for enough people that our little area is being torn apart.  We can win points in court but it's costly.  We've beat them in elections, but that was even more costly and an unbelievable time sink.

    So I've no time for quibbling.  It ain't fun anymore.  Sorry.


    Parent

    But what does any of this have to do with the New England Patriots and the allegations being leveled against them, or the NFL's investigation thereof?

    Parent
    I think he was just trying to explain (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Anne on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 02:00:52 PM EST
    why he's been more than a little short-tempered, Donald.  In fact, I believe that's how he started his original comment.

    Sometimes, when one spends one's days embroiled in difficult and frustrating situations that involve things that have meaning in one's own life, smaller things have a way of setting us off, and allowing us to show just how short our fuse has gotten.

    I could be wrong, but that's what I took from Mr. Natural's prefatory comment.

    Parent

    I think he was referring to (none / 0) (#124)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 03:52:18 PM EST
    "one side (The Patriot Haters) using BIG lies, little lies, and everything in between,....They don't give a damn what's fair or unfair, factual or fiction...."

    Of course, The Patriot fans are pure as Caesar's wife.

    that was easy....lol

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#100)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 08:19:17 AM EST
    what happens to the balls in Green Bay in January?

    Parent
    I was (none / 0) (#99)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 07:13:36 AM EST
    devastated to learn that Mitt Romney has decided not to run. for Presidink.

    Where are we going to find another candidate who irons his own shirts?

    This is indeed a sad moment.

    Tonight in Berkeley, the Dadlers... (none / 0) (#101)
    by Dadler on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 09:37:14 AM EST
    ...will have a little dinner, then head on over to Zellerbach Hall on the UC campus to experience one of my all time favorites: the Japanese percussion group, Kodo. (link)

    Twill be a pulse and chest and whole body pounding  performance, no doubt. Can't wait. Hope you all have an equally amazing day. Peace.

    Then the Kodo drummers are performing at the (none / 0) (#103)
    by oculus on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 09:56:53 AM EST
    restored Balboa Theatre in San Diego. Query.:  should I take my noise-cancelling headphones?

    Parent
    You'll be fine (none / 0) (#104)
    by Dadler on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 10:18:15 AM EST
    Maybe a helmet, just in case they knock some plaster off the ceiling with the BIG drums.

    Parent
    Another NFL Player (none / 0) (#102)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 09:53:33 AM EST
    who doesn't get it and neither do I:

    Brad Culpepper

    He plays 10 years in the NFL [which is a pretty long time for a defensive lineman] and then 4 years after retirement he files for disability because he can't tackle quarterbacks anymore.

    Uhhh -- he's not playing defensive lineman anymore [and even those who do know that it is not a lifetime gig] but he is now a lawyer suing insurance companies in addition to being a kickboxer.

    The settlement he accepts [$175,000] has to be a pittance compared to what he made throughout those 10 years in the NFL and as a disability lawyer -- but he sues for it and takes it anyway.

    Then rather than play it cool he goes on CBS Survivor which is full of physical challenges, AND for which he surely had to pass a physical AND fill out form after form regarding his physical fitness to participate.

    Does anyone think for a minute that he told CBS Survivor that he had been declared 89% disabled before going to the island and competing???

    I think we have found evidence that he took too many blows to the head in his career.

    But what I don't understand is his wife Monica. What's wrong with her brain???

    Her lament is going on Survivor with her husband -- not their greedily filing of a frivolous disability claim.

    This is your elite privileged class in action.

    How many truly disabled people get turned down and suffer along while the likes of Brad and Monica game the system and then throw it back in the faces of those who make their elitist lifestyle possible.

    Uncle, I understand your complaint (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 12:20:17 PM EST
    But the solution is to not watch "Survivor."

    That won't fix the problem but will drop your BP a few points.

    Parent

    Brad (none / 0) (#122)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 03:28:40 PM EST
    But the solution is to not watch "Survivor."

    That's what Brad said to the judge.

    Parent

    I can only hope and trust that ... (none / 0) (#117)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 01:48:59 PM EST
    ... Karma will eventually exact its due from the likes of Brad and Monica.

    Parent
    Rise in Disability (none / 0) (#145)
    by Slado on Sun Feb 01, 2015 at 06:11:17 AM EST
    and fraud is a real issue and will continue to be as lower income workers find it harder to get higher paying and full time jobs.  

    A reality I think we would all acknowledge is not getting much better despite promising employment numbers.  The participation rate is still historicaly low, new jobs are often part time and wages remain stagnant.

    All this can cause people to turn to disability.   Here is an article from NPR discussing the causes for increased claims.

    NPR - Planrt Money

    Here is another from CNN Money discussing all the reasons not just fraud.

    Any government program is open to fraud and abuse.  The question is how much and what can be done to fix it without hurting the real recipients.  

    Typically however both sides take the extreme position with Republians shouting to shut it down and Democrats pretending nothing is wrong or it's not enough to worry about so nothing gets done.

    Parent

    How Much More $s Does a Trial Cost, (none / 0) (#112)
    by RickyJim on Sat Jan 31, 2015 at 12:29:11 PM EST
    if the prosecution seeks the death penalty?  Doesn't include the cost of the appeal process so the public expense is much more than that given in the article.