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NY Protesters Stage "Die In" at Apple Store and Macy's

By Jeralyn, Section Social Justice
Posted on Fri Dec 05, 2014 at 10:45:03 PM EST
Tags: civil rights, police misconduct (all tags)
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The protests in New York over the grand jury's failure to indict the officer who killed Eric Garner and over-aggressive police conduct in general continue. Earlier tonight, about 100 protesters staged a "die in" at the Apple store on 59th & 5th (across from the Plaza Hotel and entrance to Central Park)and at Macy's at Herald Square and Grand Central Terminal.

In a surprising departure from previous nights, however, more than a hundred people stormed into an Apple Store on Central Park South and Fifth Avenue to stage a brief "die-in," sprawling on the floor of the crowded showroom as shoppers and employees watched. The group left without incident after about five minutes.

Similar demonstrations were staged at Macy's .... As they did at the Apple store, police stood by but allowed the protesters to briefly occupy both locations.

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    NY Protesters Stage "Die In" at Apple Store and Macy's | 102 comments (102 topical)

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    I would be willing to bet... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 09:50:22 AM EST
    ...if a drive spoke to the protester's respectfully, with sympathy, and rationally, expressing their need to get through and attend to some personal matter that really can't wait, that the protester's would let them through. But that's just my nutty faith in people who actually believe in freedom to exercise it in the most vital of ways.

    Call me crazy.

    I would like to think you are right (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:26:21 AM EST
    have you seen some of these traffic jams?  What do you do if you are 40 or 50 cars back?

    Parent
    Ambulances have sirens, so that 1 thing (none / 0) (#28)
    by Palli on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:17:09 AM EST
    There are people in orange vests in NY, red & yellow in Ferguson, who supervise and are spread out along the length of a march. Yes, it is a worry. Sometimes passengers can get out and talk to the Protestors about needs. On a journalist's twitter line, a video showed a Protestor being verbally accosted by a driver demanding in an obnoxious tirade that her life was more important than than __. I don't know what the upshot was but I would have walked away. Of course there is the infamous incident in Minneapolis where a driver gunned his car and drove around Protestors but actually drove over the legs of a 16 year old Protestor. There were MO 2 drivers pointing guns on Protestors- even as cars were driving slowly past. One, a retired US Marshall, was arrested 2 nights ago.

    Drivers do have constant police notices about closings and backups, Tweets and radio announcements. All the cab drivers I have seen mentioned are supportive and good natured.

    I hope everyone has noticed that NYC has not deployed any military vehicles (that I've heard) but has extensively used LRAPs (long range acoustic device) at least twice. That can't be pleasant for NYC residents and it is a police choice.

    Frankly, the abuse the NAACP marchers have faced is more harrowing.  Drivers and bystanders holding signs like: "All this for a dead ___?" and "Shoot first".  MO white small town Americans can be an ugly bunch.


    Parent

    driveR (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 09:50:50 AM EST
    oy, proofread, it works.

    Parent
    read my comment above, please (none / 0) (#14)
    by Palli on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:01:31 AM EST


    Parent
    the intersection in LA (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Palli on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:00:14 AM EST
    that was the site of last night's police killing was a designated site for a die-in Protest action tonight. Ten shots to the head of a man...bled out and died before the cops put the handcuffs on his wrists.

    jack203: When do we stop counting from zero? Case by case.
    Police are not protecting and serving. Police are shooting to kill.
    The only thinking comes after the kill and it is the tortured  rationalizing to justify Use of Fatal Force.

    This. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Angel on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:53:05 AM EST
    When do we stop counting from zero? Case by case.
    Police are not protecting and serving. Police are shooting to kill.
    The only thinking comes after the kill and it is the tortured  rationalizing to justify Use of Fatal Force.


    Parent
    Traffic jams... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:47:46 AM EST
    Happens whenever Biden jet-sets into town to beg for money, if we tolerate that we should tolerate protest traffic.

    What might be useful regarding ambulances is an agreement from the authorities not to use them for crowd control or corralling purposes, so there is no question the protesters should make way. Same for fire trucks.

    I am not trying to start a fight (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:56:23 AM EST
    but let me suggest a scenario.  You are for whatever reason, it happens, are trying to get a sick or even dying friend or child to the hospital in your car.  Not in an ambulance or fire truck.  And you come upon one of these horrific traffic jams.  Maybe you are on a bridge.  And you are 50 or more cars back from the protest.
    What do you do?
    Do you get out of it, leaving your sick of dying friend or child alone and your car parked in the middle of the street or bridge while you hike up to the front and try to reason with the protestors?
    I don't think we have really thought this through.

    I am absolutely not saying they should not protest.  Hell, I'm not even saying the should not block roads and bridges.  What I am saying is if you do this you better damn we'll be willing to accept the possibility of exactly what I describe.

    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:10:29 AM EST
    It would be foolish to deny this possibility. It can happen due to protest, Biden, road work, an accident, or just regular old snarling traffic though.

    All actions have potential consequences that should be weighed...I tend to think the positive potential of this type of protest outweighs the bad. Though like I said blocking the driveway at the precinct is probably a better choice imo.  

    Parent

    Ever try to get a dying pet (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:36:16 AM EST
    to an er vet during the NYC marathon? Yes, the cat died on the way. . .

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:52:07 AM EST
    that would be a bad day.

    Parent
    It was awful (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:12:46 PM EST
    Not being able to get anywhere because of the marathon, so trying to find an er vet wasn't easy and I ended up having to go into Manhattan vs the closer one in Brooklyn because of the limited routes available. My special boy Rocker died in the cab :(

    And these big street closing events happen all the time in NYC and other big cities. Obama shuts things down around here often enough sucking up and getting big bucks from the tech guys . . . people deal.

    Parent

    Try getting anywhere in DC (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Zorba on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:42:35 PM EST
    When the President, Vice President, or other dignitaries are being motorcaded around.
    Not to mention the large numbers of marches, rallies, etc, that have been going on there for years, because it is our country's capital.
    Having been stuck in traffic and interminably re-routed around street closures in DC a couple of times, I have sympathy for the residents, who have to deal with this all the time.
    And I am so sorry about what happened to your kitty, nystray. It must have been horrible and frustrating for you.   {{Hugs}}

    Parent
    Maybe they a practice like in Spain... (none / 0) (#66)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:21:03 PM EST
    ... where it's legal for a private citizen to use a private car as an ambulance with all the privileges in an emergency by honking the horn continuously or repeatedly while holding (or pinning with the window) a white or light coloured handkerchief or cloth flapping around.

    Very common for birthing mothers.

    Parent

    100 times.. I must spell and grammar check! (none / 0) (#67)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:22:50 PM EST
    Title should read: "Maybe they should adopt a practice like in Spain..."

    Parent
    The right to free speech and assembly (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:03:04 PM EST
      is not a license to do whatever you please, wherever you please whenever you please.

      Comparing these protests to scheduled events (political, athletic, social or whatever) for which organizers apply for and receive permits is an inapt comparison. Arguing that because travel (which is in fact a protected right) is already inconvenient means additional burdens on travel are inconsequential makes little sense.

       I wonder how many  would equally support obstructive protests if they  involved, say, blockading an abortion clinic, encircling a minority neighborhood impeding the residents from traveling in and out for work (or whatever), or to take an extreme example, blocking access to a polling pace.

      It's important not to let sympathy for a particular cause blind you to the broader ramifications .

    Blockading abortion clinics? (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:34:57 PM EST
    That already happens.  Women must make their way through "counselors" who have no idea why they are there or circumstances.

    Parent
    Civil disobedience is (5.00 / 8) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:36:30 PM EST
    a part of democracy and is as old and as American as a tea party--the Boston one.   It is often a civilly organic and civilian inconvenient means of influencing society to change laws or protect civil liberties.  The classic treatise presented to us in school was that of Henry David Thoreau, "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience."  

    Civil disobedience has influenced and changed policies that needed to be changed. A criminal justice system that is, in fact, or is perceived among a substantial segment of the populace, to legitimize or support inequality or injustice is ripe for civil disobedience.

    Civil disobedience  is inevitable   when there is a substantive loss of faith in law enforcement's commitment to equal treatment under the law.  And, the control and management of protests are sensitive when it is a belief that the police are overly aggressive or oppressive. It is easy for aggressive action by police to backfire and inspire even more of a response among those protesting.

    It seems that it needs to take civil disobedience for law enforcement to move into the twenty-first century.  Policing using stop and frisk and broken window strategies has past its shelf-life. For example, the decrease of stop and frisk in NYC (from 685,000 in 2013 to 50,000 this year) has not created a renewed opening for a return to higher crime rates.

    Prosecutors as well as police officers are in need of new training.  And, for starters, need exists to re-think how to make an arrest, keeping in mind the idea is to apprehend, detain, and, jail criminals.  

    Yes, this (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ZtoA on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:43:14 PM EST
    ->  " It is easy for aggressive action by police to backfire and inspire even more of a response among those protesting."

    Parent
    Please know that I have (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:04:03 PM EST
    just given you a standing ovation for your comment.

    Denying the history of this country is a real form of ignorance.


    Parent

    Thanks, (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 06:33:11 PM EST
    Seems like an inordinate amount of ignorance going around, these days.  And, stupidity.   I am thinking of starting up a consulting firm for wingers:  Without giving away all of my consultative secrets, I will say that my first lesson will be for them to be a good winner.

     After all, their hopes and dreams for the country seem to be on the rise what with an evident pattern of excessive police force in arrests in Black communities.   And,  sympathetic prosecutors in their pocket..

    Then there is Republican control of both houses of Congress to look forward to, with more Republican senators likely to be of one mind with  John Cornyn (R. TX) who opposes a federal role in local matters, such as Eric Holder's looking at the cases,  sort of reminiscent of the Jim Crow era arguments in the South..

    Another lesson for the wingers would be to never miss an opportunity to keep their mouths shut.  Say nothing about protests or protestors, either hope it all goes away quickly or that police backfire or protestor backlash will serve their goals.  It would not hurt, either, for wingers to feign sympathy for the victims from time to time, something nice along the lines of "what shame, too bad about that--and then just pass the beans."   Never kick a corpse when he is down, is a good rule.  I would advocate that for my clients.

    And, for that certain contingent, my final advice would be to try new and improved Tide HD, it gets those sheets whiter and brighter.

     

    Parent

    Sad also that someone would even be considered (5.00 / 6) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:36:58 PM EST
    Arrest worthy for selling loose cigarettes.

    Parent
    I heard that the shop owner (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:39:49 PM EST
    he was standing in front of called the police... Probably because he was competing with legal cigarettes that have over $7.00 per pack taxes..

    So people can't afford a whole pack. They buy loose ones.

    The old unintended consequences thing strikes again.

    Parent

    Cigarette taxes are not to blame ... (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 07:56:49 AM EST
    ... for his death and have nothing to do with MT's point - selling loose cigarettes should not be an arrestable offense in the first place.  

    But please tell Rand Paul or whatever TP candidate takes his place to keep up the sophomoric answers.  Should make the election much easier.

    Parent

    Not really (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 09:32:27 AM EST
    We need a tax structure.  I'm discussing an offense being arrest worthy.

    Fareed just pointed out that the DOD is the world's largest bureaucracy and has overcharged the American taxpayer to the tune of several lifetimes of GDP.  You support a strong military, that won't happen without taxes.  You intend to tax though, or you have childish expectations.

    It isn't taxation, it's the representation that is the problem I speak of. And how citation worthy offenses have become arrest worthy offenses is one of the problems along with citing citizens in some jurisdictions like Furgeson for everything but breathing.

    Parent

    One other thing (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 09:53:49 AM EST
    its been pointed out that Garners "crime" was a white collar crime.  Tax evasion.  It's pretty hard for most people to swallow that there is a herd of fabulously rich Wall Street crooks who drove the entire world into an economic tailspin and have seen exactly squat in consequences but Eric Garner is choked to death in front of a dozen cops for avoiding a couple of bucks in cigarette tax.

    (Like those quotes?"

    Parent

    Cops are getting ridiculous amount overtime pay (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Jack203 on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 10:18:42 AM EST
    in NYC right now.  

    They are paid so much when you include overtime, they can be well over 6 figures by their 2nd or 3rd year.  It's definitely understandable to hold them to a very high level of professionalism.  

    Have they interviewed any of drivers (none / 0) (#1)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:58:26 AM EST
    stuck in traffic because of the protests?  At what point do their rights become important?
    Let me see, you think a commuter's (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by ZtoA on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:50:37 AM EST
    'rights' to a quick commute are of equal importance to the right to demonstrate and for free speech? I have read this on teaparty sites. At what 'point' would you say, are people 'stuck in traffic' having their 'rights' (to what - a quick commute?) impacted. You asked the question so you must have something in mind. What is is?

    Parent
    I am not agreeing with him (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 08:06:56 AM EST
    but people use the roads and streets for things other than commuting.  Like getting sick people to the hospital.  That was an issue in bridgegate.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Palli on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 09:50:18 AM EST
    It has not been an issue in #Ferguson or #Eric Garner Protests.
    On the occasions when an ambulance has needed through fare, protestors have parted and guided them thru unheeded.  Documented on twitter and videos.  In fact, once when a driver explained the passenger was being taken for dialysis, the Protestors made sure the car was protected straight thru.  These are just cases, I have observed on twitter threads, I have no doubt there are others.

    Bridgegate was a rogue government operation without concern for the welfare of the citizenry...the exact opposite objective of the Protestor activities.

    Parent

    Like I said (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 09:52:59 AM EST
    im not agreeing with him.   But you can't possibly be sure this will not be an issue.  

    Parent
    Which btw (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:21:00 AM EST
    is why I think protesting in retail establishments, particularly upscale retail establishments, is a great idea.  Especially during the holiday season.   I would expect more of this.

    Hard to whine about being inconvenienced while shopping.

    Parent

    The ideal locations... (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by kdog on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:51:21 AM EST
    are police stations, DA's offices, and of course city hall/state house.  Focus on the perpetrators.

    Parent
    That too (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:58:32 AM EST


    Parent
    Shades of "Bridgegate," though the buck (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 05:58:22 AM EST
    apparently stops short of Gov. Christee, per the most recent investigation.

    Parent
    Apple will probably come out with (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by fishcamp on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 07:06:17 AM EST
    a protestors app soon.

    Parent
    To late (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 07:54:31 AM EST
    Apple patent could remotely disable protesters' phone cameras

    Parent
    Btw (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 08:11:46 AM EST
    that headline was from 2012 so do you think it's reasonable to think the police have this ability?

    I do.

    Parent

    The problem as I see it (none / 0) (#15)
    by ZtoA on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:08:22 AM EST
    is if people continue to feel like their rights are being taken away the angrier they will get. Squeeze a protest too much and more protests will happen.

    Parent
    iProtest! (none / 0) (#61)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:03:58 PM EST


    Parent
    Unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:07:53 PM EST
    if you believe this it might be more along the lines of iCrackdown


    Parent
    iShutUp ! (none / 0) (#64)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:14:04 PM EST


    Parent
    I would be upset if my commute to work or (none / 0) (#24)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:04:24 AM EST
    anywhere was delayed more than a few minutes.  They should stay off the freeways or anywhere that's going to cause a major inconvenience.

    Parent
    OTOH (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:08:07 AM EST
    IMO this is whining

    Parent
    Maybe so, but it's also being honest (none / 0) (#27)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:15:33 AM EST
    I wonder how everyone in this blog would feel if they were stuck in traffic for an extra 30 mins?  

    Parent
    I lived in LA for 14 years (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:18:19 AM EST
    it would have to be longer than that or I might not even notice.

    Parent
    Traffic jams in LA & SF (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:49:00 AM EST
    Los Angeles drivers face the worst congestion in the nation and spend an average of 90 hours a year stuck in traffic delays, a study says.

    Los Angeles was followed by San Francisco and Honolulu in the fourth annual traffic index report by Tom Tom, the Dutch company that sells GPS navigation devices and other mapping products, including real-time traffic data.

    Being inconvenienced by traffic jams in that area seems to be the norm but you know the protesters..............

    Parent

    Seriously! (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:06:14 PM EST
    I haven't lived there since the early 80's, but even back then you gave yourself a good hour just to meet friends for dinner . . .

    The traffic in the bay area has changed quite a bit since I last lived here, what with silicon valley traffic and the tech industry. Nightmare is putting it mildly. I don't know how folks do it. I live a couple blocks from the ferry, so if I end up working FT in SF, I won't have to see it. I'll be doing a glass of wine and the flat screen on the way home, lol!~ :)

    Parent

    It happens regularly on US highways (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Palli on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 11:25:42 AM EST
    people get used to it.  But we don't want anyone getting used to Police Killings- now that they can't be ignored anymore.

    Parent
    You obviously don't live anywhere (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:17:59 PM EST
    where there is traffic . . . or weather . . . or people . . . or sheep for that matter.

    Parent
    When I complained about sheep (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by oculus on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:15:39 PM EST
    blocking traffic (us) on what is generously descrbed as a two lane road, a youngish airishman replied, "They're just being sheep!"

    Parent
    That's about right :) (none / 0) (#45)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:33:59 PM EST
    My first experience with sheep was during drivers training. Ya just gotta wait them out unless you have a border collie in your backseat ;)

    Parent
    Never had sheep blocking the road (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Zorba on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:56:44 PM EST
    or slowing down traffic up here in "the country," but cattle herds being moved, yes.  Tractors, other farm equipment and hay wagons being moved (very slowly) down our country lanes, yes.
    We understand this, given where we live, but what p!sses us all off is the number of mountain bicyclists who love to cycle past, 3 or 4 abreast, and won't move over single file to let a car go past.
    That, and even worse, when they have an "organized" mountain bike race up here, with the police not allowing cars by, or even to get out of our driveways until all the bikes go by.
    I swear, the next time we receive notice that there will be a mountain bike race, I'm going to spike a hay bale on the back of my tractor and start slowly driving down the middle of our road just before the bikers are expected.

    Parent
    For Me.. (none / 0) (#50)
    by ScottW714 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:22:37 PM EST
    ...I always ride side by side because single file leads to idiots believing they can pass when there is oncoming traffic, which leads to very uncomfortable close calls by fast moving traffic.  It's damn scary because you realize the part of the equation that is going to pay for their mistakes isn't the one making it.

    If most of the lane is take up, so is the option to pass when there is oncoming traffic.  Please be kind and realize we are just trying to not get hit by a car doing 50.

    Parent

    We have country roads up here, Scott (none / 0) (#65)
    by Zorba on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:17:23 PM EST
    Not two (or more) lane roads.  They are a lane and a half, basically.
    And when we have mountain bikers up here who do move over to the right, I am very careful about passing them.  Our speed limits up here are 25-30 MPH.  Anyone going 50 MPH may very well wind up wiping out and crashing on the next sharp turn.  We had an idiot hit our tractor shed (near the road) not long ago because she took the curve way too fast.  Fortunately, she wasn't hurt, but her car was not too happy.
    We don't have a whole lot of traffic coming the other way, BTW.

    Parent
    Around here the bikes pass the (none / 0) (#70)
    by ZtoA on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:44:51 PM EST
    cars. I saw a bike seriously tailgating a car going the speed limit on a windy street. Sometimes they can be very aggressive.

    Parent
    Yes, there is that, too (none / 0) (#84)
    by Zorba on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 05:12:54 PM EST
    What I would wish is that all the people who are sharing the roads, highways, whatever, whether drivers, bicyclists, or pedestrians, would be aware of what they are doing and that they would be mindful of others who are also on them.
    What can I say?  Too many people are in their own cocoons and seem to believe that their concerns are the only ones that count.

    Parent
    My daughter got a 'moving violation' (none / 0) (#89)
    by ZtoA on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 07:40:42 PM EST
    ticket in LA for $294.00. She crossed the street in the middle of the block when there were NO CARS driving on that back street. Guess she was a hazard. Could have slowed some nonexistent driver up a tiny bit. Oh well, she paid up.

    Parent
    I just paid a 220.00 ticket (none / 0) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 07:56:57 PM EST
    for going 94.  The cop lowered my speed to 90 so I (and he) wouldn't have to go to court.  Over 90 you have to go to court.

    Parent
    Lives in the SF Bay area (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:20:09 PM EST
    shrug

    Parent
    Then he is just trolling. (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:38:36 PM EST


    Parent
    Were you respoding to my post? (none / 0) (#47)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:49:50 PM EST
    I can't always tell when there are a lot of responses.

    If you are.... I do live in a high traffic area.. SF Bay Area.  What's your point, though? If there's lots of traffic, what's another 30 minutes?

    No one wants protestors to delay their commute.  Anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite. It might look like a good idea on TV, but if you're stuck on a freeway because people want to draw attention to their cause, you'll probably say something like...

    "Why can't they do that somewhere else"
    "They should protest at the police station"
    "Those ^#%#^ idiots!"

    Parent

    What do you do when it rains? (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by nycstray on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:36:48 PM EST
    Stay home? Seems there were more delays with the rain this week than protestors.

    Parent
    As a society we don't have much control (none / 0) (#56)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:48:26 PM EST
    over the weather.  (Not looking for climate change debate)

    We can control when and where we decide to voice our opinions.

    What do I do when it rains? Sometimes I stay home or go to a movie.  Sometimes, I'll put on rain gear and go for a long walk. There's something peaceful and stimulating about walking in the rain.

    Parent

    Very impressive (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by sj on Mon Dec 08, 2014 at 05:31:05 PM EST
    Sometimes, I'll put on rain gear and go for a long walk. There's something peaceful and stimulating about walking in the rain.
    And you just leave your vehicle where ever then?

    Because I'm quite sure you know that stray was referring to commuting in the rain. So apparently you just leave your vehicle in traffic?

    Parent

    Do you really have something to say here? (none / 0) (#102)
    by McBain on Tue Dec 09, 2014 at 07:25:03 PM EST
    Seems odd you would respond to an old post without adding anything to the original topic. Do you have an opinion about protesters blocking traffic?

    Parent
    Go ahead and be upset then (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:41:17 PM EST
    You won't die from being upset, not like you would from being shot by a poorly trained, biased, trigger happy law enforcement officer :). So go ahead, be upset

    Parent
    You don't understand (1.00 / 3) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:08:19 PM EST
    That this is a false narrative is not important. That there was no choke hold and Brown didn't have his hands up is not important

    The purpose is to inconvenience you. To get your attention. To hint that "you ain't seen nothing yet" if you don't "make" society do what they want things will get worse.

    Yet we are unsure what the changes should be??

    Should we do away with Grand Juries??

    Should we tell cops they must not stop a fleeing suspect?

    Parent

    You know (5.00 / 8) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 12:13:05 PM EST
    you used to be better at concealing the fact that your only point is to troll for attention.  

    Parent
    So you see my point (1.50 / 2) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:00:40 PM EST
    but you don't want to debate, all you want to do is snark.

    Okay. I understand that you don't want to peel the onion back and try and find something that might actually solve the problem to everyone's satisfaction.

    But make no mistake. What we have now is a false narrative and that will become plainer as time goes by.

    And I won't give up on you. I'll try and help. How about this.

    The mayor of NYC wants 3 days of training for the police on how to make an arrest/confront, etc.

    Okay, fine. Sounds good to me.

    But, shouldn't we also be "training" ourselves by public service announcements, school classes, etc., that when arrested we should go calmly? Wait for the process to work and then make any point we want to make?

    Is that to radical for you to agree with??

    Or do you want to enhance and encourage people to fight/run??? Do you think that is actually productive?


    Parent

    Talk about priorities :) (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 10:35:46 AM EST
    Some people's priorities are just broken.  Sometimes it amazes me the country has made it this far.....

    Parent
    Good One... (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by ScottW714 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:01:55 PM EST
    ...yeah, what exactly are my rights in traffic, to sue the idiots that get in accidents every day and slow up tens of thousand of commuters on pretty much every major artery in Houston.

    Is there a link to these rights, a commuter Constitution, because I feel like my 12 min commute is being increased to around 25 mins because people don't know about my rights as a commuter.  Ditto for construction, they are constantly stepping on my commuter rights with their non-sense.

    One of the concerned folks on the right should take it up with Christie because I remember his people violating a whole lot of commuter rights about a year ago for no other reason that simple political vengeance.

    Parent

    government may (none / 0) (#8)
    by Reconstructionist on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 09:48:43 AM EST
     establish "time, place and  manner" regulations to limit speech and considerations such as tying up traffic, affecting local commerce  and so forth are legitimate grounds for such regulations.

      What is not allowed is discriminating as to how the regs are applied and enforced based on the content of the speech.

     

    If people really want better cops (none / 0) (#49)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 01:57:58 PM EST
    are they willing to pay for them?

    It would be great if all police officers were highly intelligent, had great people skills, and the physical ability to arrest someone who's isn't compliant without using deadly force.  But are you willing to pay for that kind of talent?

    In order to attract that kind of talent, police departments would have to pay cops a lot more than the current rate.  Because most cops earn an average salary, police departments are going to end up with average applicants.

    My guess is most people aren't willing to pay for it.  

    You Mean... (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by ScottW714 on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:29:54 PM EST
    ...most people on the right aren't willing to pay for it.  Cops, teachers, mental health workers, you name and I will vote for raises.  Generally speaking the left isn't the party screaming about how much they pay in taxes.

    So to answer your question, hell yeah.  Also I find it odd that departments who don't have funds to train people have military gear and all kinds of neat toys that are rarely used, and surely not needed.  Some of it because the Feds gave them anti-terrorism dollars, but not all of it.

    My PD just switched over to Tahoes, every cop car is a Tahoe, which is a vehicle they do not need, maybe a couple, but not all.  But I suspect they make good wages judging by the car in the parking lot, but I do not know.

    I think you are barking up the wrong tree here as far as not getting support for raising taxes to pay for qualified public servants.

    Parent

    I doubt it (none / 0) (#54)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:38:26 PM EST
    I'm sure people in here will say they're willing to pay more in taxes but when it comes down it they'll say...

    "How do I know this money will go to the right area?"
    "Cops don't need more money?  They just need to be held accountable. "


    Parent

    No, those are the types of questions I hear from (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:51:05 PM EST
    my Fox News viewing friends and family.

    Parent
    He said he watches FOX (none / 0) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:54:08 PM EST
    we at least have an honest one.   I think with work we might save this one.

    Or not.

    Parent

    Put me (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by KeysDan on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:48:48 PM EST
    in the "or not" column.    

    Parent
    Put me (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:44:45 PM EST
    in the "or not" column.    


    Parent
    I am a hopeless optimist (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:53:42 PM EST
    a wavering optimist admittedly.

    Parent
    Why only watch one side? (none / 0) (#73)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:15:11 PM EST
    These days I watch more CNN than Fox... mostly because of the Brown/Garner cases. Both networks have plenty to offer.

    Parent
    Well, for starters ... (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:38:32 PM EST
    ... because only one side is actual news.

    It's sort of like saying "Why shouldn't we teach both sides - evolution and creationism.

    Because only one side is science.

    Parent

    That's BS (none / 0) (#78)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:44:08 PM EST
    "because only one side is news"

    If you really believe that you're doomed to a life of limited perspective.

    I agree with you on evolution.  If you want to hear about creationism... go to church.  Keep it out of science classes.

    Parent

    Truth hurts, huh? (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:56:33 PM EST
    Faux News is a conservative propoganda machine.  But I'll risk a "life doomed to limited perspective by not watching all of their biased opinions and wingnut guests.  Same reason I don't listen to Rush, Glenn Beck or wingnut blogs.

    But thanks for your "concern".

    Parent

    BTW - Faux "News" ... (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 05:12:09 PM EST
    ... has the highest percentage of all claims that have been rated Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire.  Right now it's at 71% - the highest by far of any news network.

    Or in their case ... "news" network.

    Parent

    Where do you get your news? (none / 0) (#85)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 06:09:15 PM EST
    Everyone loves to criticize the media but few will admit who they trust... or at least tolerate.

    Parent
    Can I answer that? (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 06:22:21 PM EST
    i get my news from the net.  And I read everything from HuffPo to TownHall.  And while I admit a liberal slant I can't take Daily Kos.  More because of commenters than posters.  When I watch TV news it's usually MSNBC and it's mostly for spin.  Some times I tune in to FOX especially if something big is happening just to see how crazy they can get.
    I watched FOX all night the night of the 2012 election.  And I expect to again in 2016.

    I also get a lot of news from FaceBook.  Not from people's opinions.  I have a special FB page of very smart and politically active friends.  I could spend a lot more time there than I do following the links they provide.

    Parent

    Rarely from TV unless it is a big (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 09:48:05 PM EST
    breaking story, or election night, and then I switch around between CNN, PBS, ABC, MSNBC

    For daily news it is NPR and Internet - NYT, TPM news feed, other aggregators. And my local Orlando Sentinel.

    For alternate perspectives there are plenty of more reliable sources than Fox. There is intelligent life on the right, you just won't find it on Fox.

    Parent

    Wherever I get my news, I take it in with (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 10:43:55 AM EST
    a healthy dose of skepticism, given that most of the time - or at least more often than it should - it is heavier on spin than actual information, and there are important elements missing from the reports.

    I do not watch Fox News.  I do not see the point, as I don't need "the other side of the story," I just need some facts, and Fox has proven it is not capable of providing them because they get in the way.

    The other outlets are better, but not a whole lot.  BBC America and al Jazeera America spend more time on stories and don't truncate important stories so they can bring us cute animal stories or promote their own network.

    I do rely on the internet to help fill in the blanks - and that's the problem with the networks: there are too many blanks.  I want to be able to have as much information as possible, so I can make up my own mind and not be led to feeling and thinking what some network, answering to a corporate monolith, and the politicians and administration officials it wants to stay close to, wants me to feel and think.  I want to retain control over my own mind, not have a mind meld with network news.

    Most people just don't care.  They are happy to let Brian and Scott and Wolf spoon feed them whatever's on the network news plate and consider it truth.

    I'm not one of those people.  I might be happier if I was, but I'm just not someone comfortable with ignorance.

    Parent

    Mostly the internet (none / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 06:39:50 PM EST
    MSN, which links to a whole lot of sources.  For TV, mostly CNN, but also the major networks occasionally (ABC< CBS, NBC).

    Parent
    Really... (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 at 08:53:27 AM EST
    ...not to point out the obvious, but CNN is moderately conservative, and Fox is conservative propaganda, so you aren't really getting 'both sides'.  Not matching Fox does not equal liberal.

    As far as News, for me it starts in the AM getting ready with my local news, which include traffic and weather, that slides into the Today show.  Not really a fan, but they are supreme in putting up the top news stories in the first 10 mins.  Then at work, mostly from here, someone mentions something and I Google it and investigate if curious.   Then, depending when I get home, I will watch Brian Williams to see how they are framing the news I already read about.  If it's Monday, Thursday, or Sunday, I will get a couple of hours of ESPN.  Normally the two don't overlap, but this year lots of overlap.

    I quit watching MSNBC for no other reason that I don't like their time slots when I get home, and after Keith left there was no reason to wonder over.  This is the only blog I comment on regularly as the posters, including the conservative ones, are for the most part descent human beings who are interested in opposing views.

    Parent

    So, you think money will fix it all? (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by fishcamp on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:32:55 PM EST
    Strange thinking, my friend...

    Parent
    I'm not even sure it's broken (2.00 / 1) (#55)
    by McBain on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:42:57 PM EST
    I'm just assuming smarter, stronger cops with excellent people skills would prevent a few deaths per year.  

    Parent
    I am. If all it takes is higher pay for police (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:49:40 PM EST
    sign me up.

    Parent
    See my note(s) to you at (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 02:52:46 PM EST
    the bottom of the last open

    Parent
    Got it, thanks very much! (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 03:10:54 PM EST
    I had no idea such a thing existed!

    Parent
    I already do (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 06, 2014 at 04:50:13 PM EST
    ... and I don't have a problem with it.  The average municipal/town cop in NJ makes 60% more than the average resident - over $90K, not including their overtime pay.

    Parent
    Why are 'the powers that be' allowing this? (none / 0) (#98)
    by Aspidistra on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 01:46:55 PM EST
    Maybe I am just being paranoid, but it is starting to seem like the big city mayors and police chiefs are allowing all these freeways to get blocked by protestors for the following reasons:

    • Avoidance of unflattering photo ops that might happen when arresting protesters

    • Lack of any rich or powerful people being inconvenienced (none of them are on the downtown connector at rush hour, duh)

    • And finally, most concerning of all, there may have been a calculation that these highway shutdowns are alienating regular working folks who will then have less sympathy for the protesters' reasonable demands for reform.

    Sorry, but it looks to me like the protesters with the 'fires of righteousness' in their hearts who are shutting down highways are being played by the rich and powerful who are actually okay with this happening because these shutdowns are delegitimizing the protesters from the viewpoint of the general population.  And hey, once the protesters have been delegitimized, their goals for reform have been delegitimized as well.

    I wondered this as well (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 07, 2014 at 04:43:05 PM EST
    which was one of the sources of my comments questioning the possibility that they have been fully thought through by some.

    I have nothing but total sympathy and support for the protesters and the protests but making everyday people suffer who not only had nothing to do with your grievance but might be supporters who you will pi$$ off may not be the wisest approach.

    'sall im sayin'


    Parent

    NY Protesters Stage "Die In" at Apple Store and Macy's | 102 comments (102 topical)

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