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Monday Open Thread

Breaking Bad: Walter's "confession" tape was a terrific plot twist I didn't see coming. I still think the final showdown will be between Todd/Uncle Jack's people and Walt, but it will be interesting to see who else gets killed along the way.

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome (except Zimmerman.)

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    was involved in the heroin OD death of an 18 y/o. Last Wednesday the 18 y/o son of a neighborhood friend died of a heroin OD.

    I did so much stupid stuff as a kid, but jacking that sh1t into my arm is never something I cannot comprehend.

    Bad scene... (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:21:37 PM EST
    Sorry for your friends loss Sarc...how sad.

    Like my old man always said..."half my friends are dead because of heroin".  That life lesson hit home and stuck...I'll never try it cuz I know me and I'd f*ckin' love it.

    It's been coming back in a big way for a few years now, kids get hooked on the oxy and switch to heroin because it's cheaper.

    Parent

    My thoughts exactly: (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:27:51 PM EST
    I'll never try it cuz I know me and I'd f*ckin' love it.


    Parent
    Herion seems to be on a rampage (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:26:00 PM EST
    throughout the economic spectrum here in the Midwest. Parents meetings were scheduled even in the most exclusive schools to advise of the problem.

    Bad stuff and too many lives wasted.

    Parent

    It's rampant around here.. (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:42:22 PM EST
    using needles is crossing a bad, dangerous line..

    Radical self-medicating mixed with an extreme version of "male risk-taking behavior" (even though obviously females do it too)..

    There seems to be almost a faddish aspect to it..

     

    Parent

    We lost two 40 something neighbors (none / 0) (#17)
    by Visteo1 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:19:27 PM EST
    to heroin: one in a fall that broke his neck and his buddy, something of a Lennie Small type, then decided to hold-up a neighborhood bar to pay the rent.  I think it was his way of committing suicide. Maybe it will be for the better that he can find a different path in prison.

    A real shame is their landlord.  He hires the unhirable for minimum wage to reduce turnover, and puts them up in one of his houses to charge them rent.  When he decides not to take on more business, he lays them off...I guess he doesn't worry about what they will do to pay him his rent.  What a Ph*ked up world I am in.

    Parent

    I think there's more snorting and smoking... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:44:53 PM EST
    ...of heroin than there was back in the day.

    Parent
    Heroin Can Be Snorted or Smoked (none / 0) (#90)
    by rcade on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:05:17 PM EST
    Because of improvements to the purity of street heroin, it has become more commonplace to snort or smoke it. I suspect that's playing a role in the alarming rise in the usage of the drug in the U.S.

    Parent
    Cheaper and stronger... (none / 0) (#92)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:31:24 PM EST
    than ever, prisons as full as ever, DEA funding higher than ever...ladies and gentlemen let's hear it for our war on drugs!  

    God damn are we stupid.

    Parent

    so easy to dismiss the war on drugs (2.00 / 0) (#104)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:30:49 PM EST
    but the rehab and treatment industry is a scam too and almost as big a rip off. Jail works as well as rehab, maybe better. Death works best unfortunately and that is where most addicts are headed.

    Parent
    ... because I consider the jailing of addicts without the real prospect of rehabilitation to be nothing more than punitive and mean-spirited.

    That said and conversely, attempting rehabilitation of addicts without the prospect of them facing real consequences for failure, is quite often an unspoken invitation for them to go on a potentially lethal merry-go-round ride.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#136)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:48:30 PM EST
    Not everyone who is arrested and jailed for drugs is an addict, either.  Just people who want to do drugs and think they are above the law.

    Parent
    Jail does not work as well (none / 0) (#151)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:27:39 PM EST
    as rehab....

    Jail without treatment does nothing....

    Parent

    Some prison systems offer (none / 0) (#154)
    by Visteo1 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:39:49 PM EST
    vocational training, GED completion, college degrees, not to mention opportunities to get involved in a religion of one's choosing.  

    Ultimately it is up to the individual to find and commit to something that changes their path.

    Parent

    In the early 1970s (none / 0) (#156)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:35:01 PM EST
    my Mom was a psychologist at a State Prison and helped open a drug and alcohol unit for the inmates that met certain criteria.

    So, yes, there are some resources.  But since then, the emphasis has been on punishment not rehabilitation.

    Parent

    I saw it in the early 80's (none / 0) (#157)
    by Visteo1 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:44:29 PM EST
    in one medium security prison.  As I recall, Pontiac, a maximum security prison, was almost always on lockdown, so it would have been impossible to admister those programs (if the programs were available there).

    Parent
    Speaking of addicts.. (none / 0) (#163)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 11:33:21 AM EST
    we've got some real punishment junkies around these precincts..

    Drug addicts are usually psychologically and spiritually demoralized people; throwing someone like that into a sh*thole that's a concrete expression of society's callousness generally isn't going to make them less so..

    Rehab programs are only "a scam" if the people working in them and going into them are scamming. And many of them aren't.  

    Parent

    expensive and more common if it were not for the DEA and the WOD.

    Parent
    For grins and giggles (none / 0) (#167)
    by Visteo1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:54:46 PM EST
    I was surprised to find High Times on the web.

    "Unfortunately, today, a bag of heroin can be cheaper than a 6 pack of beer," said John Gilbride, Special Agent in Charge of the Drug Enforcement Agency's New York Field Division.

    What a horrible statement.  I saw schwag prices for July.  What a horrible alternative for youngsters on a limited budget wanting to try something new.  I never saw the crap back in H.S., but I can walk to the corner to get some now.

    I stopped giggling with that find.  

    Parent

    (very impure) heroin is generally less than $200 per gram.

    Also, this is the writer's take on the effect of laws and the WOD:

    Based on this estimate prohibition raises the price by a factor of nearly 21, in other words heroin is 21 times as expensive as it would be if not illegal.


    Parent
    No doubt... (none / 0) (#171)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:06:30 PM EST
    prohibition drives the price of anything sky high...that's why gangsters never met a prohibition they didn't like.

    I don't buy the more users argument though...everybody who wants to do heroin is doing heroin.  I don't see changing the marketplace from the alley to a pharmacy changing usage much.

    My advice for those who want to keep their loved ones away from the dangerous drugs...don't show them a law book, introduce them to a hardcore addict...it's the best anti-bad drug message there is.

    Parent

    Hard to argue with that: (none / 0) (#172)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:29:10 PM EST
    I don't buy the more users argument though...everybody who wants to do heroin is doing heroin.


    Parent
    That's horrible. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:20:11 PM EST
    I, too, did a lot of stupid stuff when younger -- but neither did I ever contemplate taking up the needle and the spoon.

    Substance abuse is a scourge on our country as well as others, but I'm under no illusions that the government's so-called "War on Drugs" has been anything other than an abject failure. Speaking for myself only, I think the question before us now is this:

    At what point in time do we consider an alternative, a more creative and nuanced approach to this problem, rather than simply repeating the insanity of our previous policy failures, by constantly repackaging them for public opinion as though they were some "Greatest Hits" CD compilations to be hawked by Huey Lewis and Mickey Dolenz on late-night cable TV?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    What creates more junkies than anything (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 11:51:23 AM EST
    is the lingering toxic presence of this community-and-communion destroying 19th century darwinist paradigm that pits-everyone-against-everyone in a "meritocratic" "race to the top"..Life 101: according to John D Rockefeller and Milton Friedman.

    Lets call it what it is: as hyper-materialist and spiritually bankrupt as anything Lenin or Mao ever dreamed of. Yet it's as much a part of the air we breathe as oxygen..  
     

    Parent

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 108 (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 12:51:00 PM EST
    Billy heart began to race when he noticed a bottle of peppermint schnapps and a new pair of L'Eggs in the groceries he was delivering to his favorite customer. (link)

    And congrats to my award-winning mom. Her latest little documentary, SHOSHOLOZA (link, might be rough in places, not sure if this is the last cut or second to last), won Best Social Commentary Award at the Action On Film Festival. I wrote about half the narration for it. Good job, mama.

    Peace out, peeps.

    Father Kerry Lays it out. (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 04:30:42 PM EST
    "The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by chemical weapons is a moral obscenity."

    Yes it is.

    However, the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, the killing of women and children and innocent bystanders by drones or smart bombs... now you're talkin'.

    Our head of Jt. Chief's of Staff says don't go (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:15:57 PM EST
    there. But the BBC opines it may be inevitable.

    Parent
    Anything (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:12:36 PM EST
    to get Manning and Snowden off the front pages.

    Parent
    Viral now? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:10:32 PM EST
    Identifying sources of bona fide Edward Snowden bombshells got a bit harder last week following his accusation that The Independent published a fake "exclusive." However, it appears there's another outlet to add to the list of legitimate sources. BuzzFeed reports that non-profit investigative reporting group ProPublica is also privy to some NSA leaks. "While we do not usually comment on stories before they are published, in light of what's already appeared on this subject, we can confirm that we have for some time been working with the Guardian, and more recently also the New York Times, on a story based on documents provided by Mr. Snowden," said the organization's president, Richard Tofel.

    -- NYMag today...

    With so many outlets (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:29:06 AM EST
    Who should the US government destroy first?  Watching journalists choose to protect journalism gives me hope.

    Parent
    Well, the US Government (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 06:29:35 AM EST
    seems bent on doing everything they can to make themselves illegitimate and destroy themselves...

    Shame involves an internalized feeling of being exposed and humiliated. Shame is different from guilt. Shame is a feeling of badness about the self. Guilt is about behavior -- a feeling of "conscience" from having done something wrong or against one's values.

    Shame underlies self-destructive behaviors:

    • Hidden shame often drives self-destructive behaviors and other psychological symptoms such as rage, avoidance, or addictions.
    • Self-destructive behaviors often are an attempt to regulate overpowering, painful feelings but lead to more shame, propelling the self-destructive cycle.
    • Secrecy, silence, and out-of-control behaviors fuel shame.

    And I expect they'll continue to spiral down.

    Exclusive Glenn Greenwald Interview: "I Won't Be Kept Out of My Country for Doing Journalism!"

    Jonathan Franklin for Truthout interviews Glenn Greenwald... "GG: I am extremely encouraged. It has actually gone much much better than I ever dreamed in my wildest dreams that it would. There are countless countries around the world in which Edward Snowden is considered a hero and in which there is a raging debate over the dangers of secret American surveillance and the value of internet privacy. Huge numbers of governments have openly defied the orders of the United States . . . beginning with Hong Kong, China . . . now Russia, multiple countries in Latin America. There are opinion polls in the United States that are incredible that show for the first time since 9/11 more Americans are worried about abuses of their civil liberties than they are of the threat of terrorism. You see new coalitions in congress forming against the surveillance state and could place serious limits on it. I think you are going to see more and more people inspired by the acts of Edward Snowden and the people who have tried to help report his documents, knowing that you can stand up to the United States government and to do so in a way that exercises your rights, without fear. I think it is going to have long-lasting implications on all those levels."


    Parent
    So, I guess we are on the warpath... (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:11:23 AM EST
    From the FDL News Desk:

    President Obama is now undeniably on the war path and has ordered the release of a report justifying a military attack on Syria. The report will come as US war ships move closer to Syria. News reports suggest the US and Britain have already decided to use military force in the wake of alleged chemical weapon attacks by the Assad regime.

       President Barack Obama called his national security team together Saturday to talk about the next move in Syria. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper led off the three-hour White House meeting with detailed analysis of the evidence about the chemical weapons attack, the disposition of victims and what the administration now believes is a near air-tight circumstantial case that the Syrian regime was behind it.

        Obama ordered a declassified report be prepared for public release before any military strike commences. That report, top advisers tell CBS News, is due to be released in a day or two. There was no debate at the Saturday meeting that a military response is necessary.

    Well, if there is anyone you can trust its James Clapper.

    Now, the president is demanding accountability?  

    ...the accountability statement is ironic given that Monday was also the day it was revealed that the United States government helped Saddam use chemical weapons against Iranian troops. Any accountability for that? The evidence is screaming at us.

    Conjured justifications and saccharine emotional pleas aside, America is now entering yet another war in the Middle East. This one is a civil war between the Assad regime and Al Qaeda. Amazingly America will be on the side of Al Qaeda this time. And to what end? So this is a punitive strike to tell the Assad regime that in no uncertain terms they need to kill people with conventional weapons only? For that noble goal we are attacking yet another country in the region Americans overwhelmingly want to step back from? America deserves a better foreign policy.

    Jesus Christ on a crutch.


    It would be absolutely horrible (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:54:55 AM EST
    if a republican had won last year and was doing this. Just think of all those poor democrats and obots who would have to be pretending to be opposed to it.

    But obama will do it with style and grace and all the dead Syrians will love him for it, not to mention the cruise missile manufacturers. He may even order the navy to paint peace signs on all the cruise missiles.

    Parent

    Charlie Pierce had this to say: (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:07:59 AM EST
    Link

    The New York Times thinks making war in Syria will make the president a more believable president. And that, if the president decides to make war in Syria, the Iranians will wonder if they should still want a nuclear bomb.

       This time the use of chemicals was more brazen and the casualties were much greater, suggesting that Mr. Assad did not take Mr. Obama seriously. Presidents should not make a habit of drawing red lines in public, but if they do, they had best follow through. Many countries (including Iran, which Mr. Obama has often said won't be permitted to have a nuclear weapon) will be watching.
       

    The Times declines to tell us how many Syrians have to die to enhance the president's credibility with the Iranians. Because when you make war in a place, actual people die actual deaths. Fathers get killed. Children get killed. School buildings and hospitals fall down all around the people inside them. The message you are sending with your missiles gets just a trifle muddled. Make no mistake. If we strike, we will be making actual war in Syria. Ordinary Syrians will not see our missiles as "bomb-o-grams," telling them with every deadly explosion that we're really on their side. We will be another belligerent making their daily lives brutal and deadly, and there will be enough of them to hate us for that to guarantee that we will have to make more war in that place, or in some other place, very soon. That is what we do now. We make war in a place without going to war in a place, and nobody is fooled except ourselves.

    That's some legacy Obama's building, huh?

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:11:22 AM EST
    he's pretty believable already.

    He's exactly what I believed him to be and worse.

    This is him in his second term - when he doesn't have to worry about reelection - showing his true liberal progressive colors.

    Oh yes.

    Parent

    Pepe Escobar had this to say... (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:16:53 AM EST
    Obama set for holy Tomahawk war

    The "responsibility to protect" (R2P) doctrine invoked to legitimize the 2011 war on Libya has just transmogrified into ''responsibility to attack'' (R2A) Syria. Just because the Obama administration says so.

    On Sunday, the White House said it had ''very little doubt'' that the Bashar al-Assad government used chemical weapons against its own citizens. On Monday, Secretary of State John Kerry ramped it up to ''undeniable'' - and accused Assad of ''moral obscenity''.

    So when the US bombed Fallujah with white phosphorus in late 2004 it was just taking the moral high ground. And when the US helped Saddam Hussein to gas Iranians in 1988 it was also taking the moral high ground.

    The Obama administration has ruled that Assad allowed UN chemical weapons inspectors into Syria, and to celebrate their arrival unleashed a chemical weapons attack mostly against women and children only 15 kilometers away from the inspectors' hotel. If you don't believe it, you subscribe to a conspiracy theory.

    Evidence? Who cares about evidence? Assad's offer of access for the inspectors came ''too late''. Anyway, the UN team is only mandated to determine whether chemical weapons were deployed - but not by who, according to UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon's spokesman.

    As far as the Obama administration and UK Prime Minister David ''of Arabia'' Cameron are concerned - supported by a barrage of corporate media missiles - that's irrelevant; Obama's ''red line'' has been crossed by Assad, period. Washington and London are in no-holds-barred mode to dismiss any facts contradicting the decision. Newspeak - of the R2A kind - rules. If this all looks like Iraq 2.0 that's because it is. Time to fix the facts around the policy - all over again. Time for weapons of mass deception - all over again.

    Besides, Snowden says the NSA... OH! HEY! LOOK OVER THERE! GAS! AL QAEDA!

    Parent

    Is it too late for Nobel (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Slado on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:08:20 AM EST
    to ask for their peace prize back?

    Parent
    Well hey. Kissinger had his. (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:27:12 AM EST
    It's the perfect brand for obama and he shares it with bush anyway. Everybody knows exactly what it represents.

    Parent
    Speaking for myself only, ... (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:11:41 PM EST
    ... I truly wonder what you all would have been saying were we presently living in September 1937 at the height of the Spanish Civil War, and the topic of discussion was President Roosevelt's options in the face of the Luftwaffe's carpet bombing of the Basque Republican town of Guernica on behalf of Gen. Francisco Franco's Nationalist forces.

    Now, I'm not arguing at all that there's an easy answer here to the escalating challenge posed by President Assad's deployment of chemical weapons in the Syrian conflict. And quite honestly, I would not want to be in President Obama's shoes right now as he weighs our short- and long-term interests, and balances them against the various options and scenarios presently on his table.

    But I'll be blunt. What happened in the Damascus suburbs one weeks ago, in which the Assad regime unleashed a massive nerve agent attack upon Syrian civilians, killing upwards of 1,300 of them that we know of and injuring untold thousands of others, really doesn't sit well with me at all. Nor does the direction of this particular discussion, which encompasses a topic deserving of far better debate than the present (and entirely predictable) round of Obama-bashing by Edger and lentinel.

    Well, I don't think you guys should get off this easy today, so I'll take a contrary opinion. Given my own belief that the wanton deployment and use of chemical weapons constitutes a very serious war crime, I think this disastrous turn of events in the Syrian civil conflict certainly requires some form of forceful response from the international community, and perhaps even invites direct military retaliation on our part.

    Again, strictly my opinion, but I also believe what happened in Damascus doesn't call out for a blind military flailing at various targets in an emotional retaliation. Rather, its ultimate success depends upon its delivery of a carefully crafted and targeted response which sends a very clear and unambiguous message to President Assad, specifically that he continues down this dubious path at his own physical peril, and that his fate as well as that of his family could very well depend upon his own clear-eyed and sober reassessment regarding what he's doing presently.

    In the meantime, as you respond to my challenge, I would like to remind all of you that evil will usually triumph whenever otherwise good people start grasping at various reasons and rationales for doing absolutely nothing even when its presence is clearly in our midst. So, please consider specifically:

    • If we don't do something about Assad's use of chemical weapons now, then when should we;
    • If the Syrian civil war is really none of our country's concern -- as a few of you, and please correct me if I'm wrong, seem to be suggesting -- then when should the deployment of chemical weaponry against a civilian population become our concern; and
    • If we're not willing to get serious about this issue today, then what happens tomorrow, most likely somewhere else?

    Aloha.

    Parent
    I agree, Donald (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:15:47 PM EST
    This isn't as easy as saying, "We shouldn't have a military solution."

    Thinking of Germany in the 1930s and early 40's...  What if we had just said, "Not our problem?"

    Parent

    For a long time, we did exactly that. (none / 0) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:44:46 PM EST
    It was only when we were confronted by the horrifying possibility of a powerful Nazi military machine in possession of the vast British and French naval fleets, did FDR rise to the occasion and begin doing everything he could to arm and sustain the British war effort in late 1940, during the Battle of Britain and the London Blitz.

    Even then, there were still millions of Republican isolationists led by Charles Lindbergh who adamantly opposed his decision to aid the British, and who insisted that Adolf Hitler couldn't be beaten and that we should instead seek some sort of accommodation with the Axis powers. It took the occasion of our own military disaster at Pearl Harbor in Dec. 1941, for their blinders to finally be ripped away so that they clearly understood the threat posed to us.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Well, Donald, for starters, unlike in 1937, we (none / 0) (#138)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 06:15:40 PM EST
    now have a wealth of information detailing how badly we tend to muck things up when intervening in the civil wars of other nations, especially in the middle east.

    I doubt you will find anyone here at TL who sports a cavalier attitude about the use of chemical or biological or nuclear weapons. The whole WMD menu. The concern seems to me to be about our almost compulsive and rarely successful interventions in these conflicts.

    Nothing I have seen so far about our president's plans for Syria look like anything more than the token lobbing of some Tomahawk missiles that will. I'd be willing to bet, cause virtually no damage to Assad and considerable damage to the very Syrian citizens Assad is attacking. What good will that do the Syrian people?

    Additionally, I am skeptical of just about anything our government says when it is building a public relations case for military action. Was there really a chemical attack on Syrian citizens? If so, how do we know it was Assad and not the AlQuada strong rebels?

    Remember the build-up to Poppy Bush's grand Gulf War adventure? Remember the horror stories about the atrocities Saddam and his forces were supposedly committing in Kuwait? Like the shocking story we all heard trumpeted in the American press describing how Saddam's men were ripping premature babies out of incubators, throwing those babies to the ground to die and shipping the incubators back to Iraq?

    I remember that story. I also remember that it was a complete lie, propaganda used to get Americans onboard with the invasion plans. I have no reason to believe that Obama is any less duplicitous than his predecessors.

    Seriously, Donald, what good will our tossing some missiles at the Syrian people do? It seems doubtful Assad will be miraculously scared straight. It seems very likely innocent Syrians will be killed and injured. So, what is the point? What good could possibly come of our intervening?

    Parent

    Are you implying that what we saw ... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:26:11 PM EST
    caseyOR: "Additionally, I am skeptical of just about anything our government says when it is building a public relations case for military action. Was there really a chemical attack on Syrian citizens? [...] Remember the horror stories about the atrocities Saddam and his forces were supposedly committing in Kuwait? [...] I also remember that it was a complete lie, propaganda used to get Americans onboard with the invasion plans. I have no reason to believe that Obama is any less duplicitous than his predecessors."

    ... last week was a fabrication -- seriously?

    As I said earlier, I have no idea what our exact response should be in this situation. As someone who lost a parent to war, I usually tend to have significant misgivings about the use of military force in general, in any event.

    But given that I also don't believe last week's multiple videos out of Damascus can in any way be construed as fabricated propaganda, I think something clearly has to be done to deter Assad from thinking he can commit this sort of heinous act in the future with impunity.

    (And if I remember correctly, there were never any live videos of dead and dying babies in Kuwait offered up for our viewing, but merely several staged interviews of purported and misidentified "witnesses" to the alleged crimes. That's clearly not the case in this instance.)

    It's my contention that we simply can't allow for the mass deployment of chemical weapons by regimes against their defenseless civilian populations. And seriously, a sustained 48-hour-long attack with the stated goal of degrading and eroding the Assad regime's military infrastructure, as it has been thus described by those supposedly in the know, hardly amounts to "the token lobbing of some Tomahawk missiles [at] will."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    We do not know who used chemical (5.00 / 4) (#148)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:12:30 PM EST
    weapons. Was it Assad or the rebels? Seriously, we do not know who used the gas.

    And while I, too, deplore the use of chemical weapons, I do not understand why deaths from gas are somehow more awful, more intolerable than all the other deaths that have occurred in Syria, are worse than the deaths that will occur from our bombing.

    I think Obama backed himself, and so the rest of us, into a corner when he made the "red line" comment. I think he was trying to sound tough without ever intending to engage militarily in Syria, and someone, Assad or the rebels, called his bluff.  He doesn't want to be accused of weakness or flip-flopping or whatever other taunt might be tossed his way. So, to spare his ego, we throw some missiles into Syria and probably kill many more people than were killed by the gas.

    I doubt we will impart any long lasting harm to Assad. And, of course, the supply of chemicals will be safe.

    I used the Kuwait story as an example of how propaganda is used to gin up outrage when politicians want to use the military. The fact is we cannot afford to believe what our government tells us. And we need to be doubly vigilant when bellicose rhetoric starts spewing from politicians' mouths, like Mr. Kerry's recent remarks.

    I, for one, do not think that this sustained 48-hour-long attack will effect any real change in Assad's behavior. And so, then what? We pelt him with missiles. He carries on as before. We then , what???  Send in ground troops? Accelerate the bombing and kill even more people, but probably not Assad? What?

    Parent

    I would have to do something to stay Assad's (none / 0) (#143)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:06:38 PM EST
    Chemical weapon hand.  Given that I don't know everything available on the table, and if the UN was backing me, I would probably have to go here.

    Parent
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:41:22 PM EST
    Given that President Assad has been warned both previously and repeatedly by our government about just this sort of occurrence when he was suspected of using chemical weapons in earlier incidents, I'm afraid that we no longer have much choice in the matter. Obviously, Assad thought we were bluffing and has called our hand.

    There is much peril to be had in looking like a paper tiger and being shown up as a serial bluffer on this particular occasion. Failure to do anything at all of substance to deter such chemical attacks in the future would be, in my opinion, as grave a moral failing as any random attack launched willy-nilly at Syria without a clearly stated goal and defined objective.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I am looking forward to (none / 0) (#149)
    by Visteo1 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:12:35 PM EST
    the proof that Obama will offer shortly that Assad carried out the attack.  It is not a question of whether chemical weapons were used, but a question of who used them.

    Will that evidence be undeniable?

    Parent

    A preponderance (none / 0) (#150)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:26:37 PM EST
    is sufficient, in my view.  The reason: Very few, if any, physical things or alleged physical events such as who-did-what-when can be "undeniable."

    Parent
    Communication that chemical (none / 0) (#155)
    by Visteo1 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:32:54 PM EST
    weapons are being authorized within Assad's command and just prior to the event would be sufficient for me.  It would include proof of who the individuals are and their position's within the regime.  

    I would rather they wait for an initial report from this man, if it is much less.

    Parent

    Not much of a (none / 0) (#89)
    by Nemi on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 12:47:26 PM EST
    believer in conspiracy theories myself, yet I can't help wondering if this wasn't in the making back when Obama cancelled his upcoming meeting with Vladimir Putin?

    Instead it was arranged for him to go to Stockholm Sweden, a first, and meet with Nordic and Baltic leaders - including the Norwegian PM who, even as the Nobel Peace Prize is supposed to be unpolitical, I have never doubted was instrumental in picking Obama as the recipient in 2009.

    So is that meeting for him to bask in the adulation of true friends and being reassured of their never ending loyalty? Even when it comes to attacking Syria?

    Call me naive, but I would have preferred for him to stick to the meeting with Putin and discuss the possibilities of a future peace conference. That would have shown him as at least trying to live up to the obligations of being the NPP-President.

    But alas, it's all speculation on my part.

    Parent

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 109 (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:52:05 AM EST
    Chemical attacks (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:09:19 AM EST
    seem so undiscriminating. They just kill everyone who is in the way.
    No wonder we have to go and do something.

    I prefer it the way we do it.
    We send a little drone to off the person we don't like and although the dronypie might off some of the people who happen to be in the vicinity, it's mostly discriminating and only undiscriminates a little bit.

    Our smart bombs or whatever we used to shock and awe them
    Eye-raquis I will admit were a teensy bit - well, let's just call them generous in the manner in which they served up their lethal contents.

    Don't bring up the Atomic bomb - that's not fair and it's not chemical and chemical is what we're talking about.

    It is a proven and established fact that people who are killed by drones and bombs are measurably less dead than those who have been chemicalized.

    Uh, so let's get going, there's no other choice. God willing, we will prevail, in peace and freedom from fear, and in true health, through the purity and essence of our natural... fluids.


    Dead is dead (none / 0) (#95)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:51:25 PM EST
    I wonder, lentinel, at what point the U.S. (and many other nations as well) will confront the classic & real question of "When intervention?"  Maybe because the question & its ramifications lead in so many different directions and there is always so much inherent conflict when certain issues, such as "humanitarian intervention," arise that it is usually politically impossible to address until there is no real national engagement in view of what can become immediate crisis.

    In the matter of Syria: I know that my initial & secondary reactions is to hold back as long as possible or even to say that we should do nothing under any circumstances.  Like you, I find it hard to make a moral argument about which type of dead is better than another.  I also reject siren calls to involvement in military conflagration ever since coming of age during the Vietnam human debacle that we gradually allowed ourselves to be sucked into.  Further, I did not support our immediate invasion of Afghanistan; and, I was vocal & publicly outspoken against our disastrous invasion of Iraq.  

    There are times, imo, that the matter is not so clear.  Despite the players (including the uncertainty of the rebels' agenda) that situation may be what the world's countries are witnessing contemporaneously today ... massive chemical killings.  Granted that was the kind of claim used by Bush & his deceitful crew when they kept referring to Saddam as having "gassed his own people" ten to twenty years earlier. But what do you do when someone is performing such actions at the same time TV cameras now show it?  What is the philosophy? What is the reason?

    I want to be clear that my own reasoning on the Syrian matter is clouded and unresolved.  While I do not see a difference between dead & dead, there can arise in human society an horrific line that goes beyond that obvious conclusion ... the Nazi gas chambers as a methodology for mass killing in WWII is the most familiar example.  Would the alleged situation in Syria resemble that in any significant way?  

    Understand that I don't know the answer; but, there is a feeling on a level that I cannot describe that says some form of intervention (not the boots-on-the-ground nor massive indiscriminate killing on our part/the UN's part, etc.)may be warranted.  I don't know where the "humanitarian" line is, just that there comes a time when we as humans might see that line crossed ... when it is more than the ugly, but usual, part & parcel of conflicts & dead-is-dead modern combat that societies so often experience.  In that vein, and in retrospect, I still wonder whether the US should have done more in the way of intervention to alleviate the Rwandan horror.

    So ... in today's 21st century, is there a humanitarian line ... ever?  And, what is that line? Or is it better never to be lured into conflicts in the rest of the world unless we are directly attacked?  It definitely is more than philosophical because, when all is said & done, the diplomacy avenue sometimes does not work; it may well become very real.

    Parent

    Action always seems to fall to the U.S. (none / 0) (#97)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:56:17 PM EST
    The war in Syria has been going on for two years now. Tens of thousands dead, millions of refugees. Where has the U.N. been? Where has the Arab League been? They are both toothless -- and I would dare to say "useless" -- organizations.

    Parent
    Agree shoephone (none / 0) (#101)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:19:50 PM EST
    that we should not be & cannot be the "world's policeman."  The nature of the comity of nations makes UN action in situations where it's members are pitted against each other close to impossible.  That is pragmatically understandable.

    Yet ... the question of when humanitarian intervention by combined powerful nations or a powerful nation should occur at all hangs there.  Never or Only in Very Limited Circumstances When, etc. or Lets Talk & Blame Someone Else or Who Knows.  

    Maybe there can only be a tentative answer and never The Answer.

    Parent

    So, tell me - did you ever imagine (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:57:23 PM EST
    we would be essentially partnering with a faction of al Qaeda in this humanitarian intervention?

    Seems weird to me, though, how selective we are in our humanitarianism...given the revelations that we helped Saddam use chemical weapons against Iranian troops at one point, one has to wonder at how easily people's lives become strategic and political pawns.

    Well, at least I wonder about it, anyway.  How Obama's words about accountability and Kerry's about the nightmare of death don't turn to ashes in their mouths is beyond me.

    Parent

    While I agree that countries, (none / 0) (#120)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:24:39 PM EST
    including us, have a way--in the way of the world--of being selective, the question of whether there should ever be a military response, however limited, based upon humanitarian needs still hangs.  While we know that Russia does not have a history of opposing Syria in the Security Council and we don't have a history of opposing Saudi Arabia and China does not take on North Korea for starving it's citizens. that international realpolitik is nothing new (not good, not nice, but nothing new.)

     What I don't know is whether there can, in fact, be a genuine reason for any kind of military intervention based upon humanitarianism ... in spite of past errors on our part (most recently, the monumental debacle unleashed in Iraq) ... or is it better to adopt a strict non-military interventionism policy. That is the question that Syria appears to put in front of us and other nations ... the question not only of Who Is The Other, but more important, Who Are We?

    Parent

    How come (none / 0) (#114)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:50:47 PM EST
    we seem to practice humanitarian intervention primarily in places that happen to have a lot of oil?

    Parent
    Actually, (none / 0) (#115)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:57:03 PM EST
    it doesn't have a lot of oil...

    But since the war scare, the price of oil shot up.
    So it's good news all the same.

    Parent

    I suppose that (none / 0) (#98)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:00:23 PM EST
    if you throw enough sh*t at the wall you can sit back and hope some of it might stick.

    That appears to be obama's strategy, at least. Some people eat it right up, too.

    Parent

    And I'm sitting here thinking (2.00 / 2) (#103)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:27:44 PM EST
    sh*t throwing has always been your north of the border strategy.

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#129)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:01:29 PM EST
    That deserves another rendition of South Park's "Blame Canada!"

    ("It seems that everything's gone wrong, since Canada came along ...")

    Parent

    Oh, for crying out loud! (none / 0) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 08:32:26 PM EST
    lentinel: "It is a proven and established fact that people who are killed by drones and bombs are measurably less dead than those who have been chemicalized."

    That sort of moral equivocation, offered as it is in the face of a brutal war crime like a chemical attack on unarmed civilians, is simply reprehensible.

    I know very few people here, Jim and Slado possibly excepted, who adopt a consistent "my country, right or wrong" approach in these sorts of discussions, regardless of the evidence presented. Certainly, I've never claimed that our country is blameless and perfect. I know that in many ways, we've been exposed as having some very significant policy flaws, if not inherent flaws in our national character.

    But conversely, why must you consistently maintain a default position that the United States is somehow always the evil party and always at fault, and that whatever our leaders do is always to be considered far worse than what anyone else does, regardless of the situation at hand and the evidence presented?

    I've said this before, you're really no better than Jim's and Slado's perpetual chorus of "God Bless America" when your criticisms of this administration devolve into a tedious litany of false equivalencies for every occasion. Rather, you merely become the leftist equivalent of the right-wing clown car.

    This is not a black-and-white world where things can be categorized accordingly, and further, yours is hardly the definitive view of U.S. foreign policy. And whenever you talk like this, it's frankly rather hard to consider you as someone who should be taken seriously. So get real, and stop acting like a morally pretentious left-wing cartoon.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    But they used GAS to kill people. (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:15:02 PM EST
    That crosses the red line and requires that we hold Assad accountable by us killing people.  It is the way the killing is done that counts.  It is a lot like Iraq--we definitely know Assad did it, despite the fact that  he was winning the civil war with nicer weaponry. And, as in Iraq, the  UN's assessment is too little, too late and we can't  wait.

     And, too,  a lot like Libya in that we must bomb people for  humanitarian reasons.   I guess something could go wrong, but I doubt it--after all, you do have to break an egg or two to make an omelet.  The only thing that is unclear as to whether this is more like Iraq or Libya, is the fate of  Assad--will he end up in a spider-hole or in a suburban meat locker.

    Are you an sock p of sarcasticunnamedone???? (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:34:53 PM EST
    Seriously, this rush to judgment by the NYT, Kerry, and others is frightening. Especially when our Jt. Chief of Staffs says there is nothing to be gained by U.S. intervention. Russia and China's position is more logical at present.

    Parent
    Sarcasm (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:03:53 PM EST
    is all the left has left.   I think.

    Parent
    I totally read KeysDan (none / 0) (#96)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:53:55 PM EST
    as snark. And I read your title of "Are you an sock p of... " as "Are you a sock puppet of ..."

    Am I wrong?

    Parent

    Of course it's snark. Hence my (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:49:42 PM EST
    snarky inquiry.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#106)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:05:03 PM EST
    One more example of why "food is good"

    Parent
    And, we can link (none / 0) (#109)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:24:51 PM EST
    that to jb's comment below on the type of food :)

    Parent
    I am missing something here. (none / 0) (#130)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:19:22 PM EST
    Only that when I'm (none / 0) (#134)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:28:28 PM EST
    hungry neural synapses do not always fire. Which is why didn't recognize your comment as snark. Not a big deal. I resolved the problem straightaway and then saw jb's link about food choices. Which I'm sure has relevance some kinda way :)

    Parent
    I'd a thought you knew me (none / 0) (#141)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:01:50 PM EST
    enough by know to discern!

    Parent
    One would think, (none / 0) (#142)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:04:50 PM EST
    right? What can I say.

    Parent
    Nudged to the produce aisle (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:13:07 PM EST
    all because of a look in the mirror:

    EL PASO -- Samuel Pulido walked into his local grocery store on a sweltering day, greeted by cool air and the fantasy-world ambience of the modern supermarket.

    Soft music drifted. Neon-bright colors turned his head this way and that. "WOW!!!" gasped the posters hanging from entranceway racks, heralding the sugary drinks, wavy chips and Berry Colossal Crunch being thrust his way.

    Then he looked down at his grocery cart and felt quite a different tug. Inside the front of the buggy, hooked onto its red steel frame, was a mirror. It stretched nearly a foot across, and as Mr. Pulido gripped the cart a little more tightly, it filled with the reflection of his startled face.

    The sight was meant to be a splash of reality in the otherwise anonymous la-la land of food shopping, a reminder of who he was, how he looked and perhaps what he had come in for. And if the spell cast by the store wasn't entirely broken, it seemed to have lost at least some of its grip.

    "I'm looking at myself, and thinking, `O.K., now what?' " he said.

    The mirror is part of an effort to get Americans to change their eating habits, by two social scientists outmaneuvering the processed-food giants on their own turf, using their own tricks: the distracting little nudges and cues that confront a supermarket shopper at every turn. The researchers, like many government agencies and healthy-food advocates these days, are out to increase consumption of fruits and vegetables. But instead of preaching about diabetes or slapping taxes on junk food, they gently prod shoppers -- so gently, in fact, that it's hard to believe the results.

    In one early test at a store in Virginia, grocery carts carried a strip of yellow duct tape that divided the baskets neatly in half; a flier instructed shoppers to put their fruits and vegetables in the front half of the cart. Average produce sales per customer jumped to $8.85 from $3.99.

    Fascinating stuff.  And not surprising.

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:32:58 PM EST
    That was a really interesting article. And not surprising. But then, most marketing isn't very surprising if you stop to notice it. I've always been rather shocked when someone declares that they are not very susceptible to marketing... as they pull out their iPhone or somesuch. Also as if Madison Avenue wasn't a billion dollar industry.

    I don't know about you, but this would have a greater influence on me and my health choices than a commercial for Nike with a perfectly formed model in slow motion as the focus.

    Parent

    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:42:28 PM EST
    I was actually having this conversation yesterday about how I very rarely look in the mirror, beyond looking at my face to put my makeup on or comb my hair. I'm always shocked when I see a full length view of myself.

    Mirrors in the store would really straighten me out!

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#119)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:23:58 PM EST
    No kidding :)

    Parent
    Maybe a robot voice (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:26:22 PM EST
    built into the cart that would say, "Step away from the pudding!"

    Parent
    That made me laugh out loud (none / 0) (#124)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:29:25 PM EST
    I pictured flashing lights and everything.

    Parent
    Fascinating, indeed...I am kind of (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:44:14 PM EST
    shocked, though, at how low the average produce sales per customer was, even after the yellow-tape experiment.

    The mirror would really be a game-changer, though - that's a brilliant idea.  

    Parent

    I know! (none / 0) (#113)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:47:22 PM EST
    We don't eat lots of fruits and veggies (although we try very hard every week!) and we don't get out of the produce section without spending at least $40-50.

    Parent
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 110 (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Dadler on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 10:15:51 AM EST
    California TLers, take a look at this.... (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Dadler on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 10:27:16 AM EST
    Weirdest headline of the day (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 12:37:06 PM EST
    Could this be the third (none / 0) (#8)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:38:06 PM EST
    Battle of Bull Run?

    Parent
    We visited that site this summer.. (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:49:06 PM EST
    Below the mason dixon line they refer to it as First and Second Battles of Manassas.

    Parent
    For that matter, they also call ... (none / 0) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:50:04 PM EST
    ... the battles of Antietam and Stones River, "Sharpsburg" and "Murfreesboro," respectively. But the South lost that war, so therefore, Southerners don't get to claim the right to rename its various battlefields to suit their fancy, anymore than they get to rewrite its history.

    While I certainly don't sympathize, I can understand Southerners' bitterness over having gotten their a$$es whipped big-time by the Yankees, given that it was so thorough a pounding that the South arguably never regained its former level of economic footing in this country until the 1970s and '80s.

    But they always seem to conveniently forget that they started the war, not the North. For being such a demonstratively religious people, they should have heeded -- and probably still should heed -- the biblical prophecy of Hosea 8:7, in which it is written, "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:21:38 PM EST
    It's because the Northern armies used to name the battle for the nearest bodies of water, while the Southern armies used to name the battles for the nearest town.

    And actually:

    Many modern accounts of Civil War battles use the names established by the North. However, for some battles, the Southern name has become the standard. The National Park Service occasionally uses the Southern names for their battlefield parks located in the South, such as Manassas and Shiloh. In general, naming conventions were determined by the victor of the battle.


    Parent
    Well, the official name of ... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:16:53 PM EST
    ... the U.S. Civil War, per the Library of Congress, is "The War of the Rebellion."

    Personally, I consider the sacking and pillaging of Georgia and South Carolina by Gen. Sherman and Union troops to be one of the ugliest events in our nation's history -- and frankly, with apologies to Mel Brooks, I think it's about time that we did it again, just for old times' sake.

    ;-P

    Parent

    Did you see this? (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:30:28 PM EST
    Southerners (none / 0) (#63)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:17:28 PM EST
    do not agree they got their as*es whipped.  

    They point to Robert E. Lee and his brilliant victories, while outnumbered close to two to one, at Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville.  The South had better Generals and they would say better soldiers.....The North only won because they had more supplies and soldiers, in their view....

    But for a moment of uncharacteristic hubris by Lee at Gettysburg, which General Longstreet persistently warned against, and the South would have won....

    The Union was lucky at Gettysburg.  A perfect storm of Southern blunders....J.E.B. Stuart riding off into West Virginia against Lee's wishes....Stonewall Jackson previously having been killed at Chancellorsville by his own troops.....Jackson's successor, General Ewell, losing Cemetery Hill and then not understanding Lee's instructions to take it--something that Jackson would have never allowed....and the infamous Pickett's charge....A change of luck here and there, and Lee wins the battle and then takes Philadelphia, and the North agrees to terms....

    Southerners are quite proud of their military tradition....That is not the problem.

    Parent

    To quote my late grandfather: (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:40:43 PM EST
    MKS: "But for a moment of uncharacteristic hubris by Lee at Gettysburg, which General Longstreet persistently warned against, and the South would have won ..."

    "And if the dog hadn't stopped to take a dump, he'd have caught that rabbit."

    By 1865, the South was beaten and beaten badly, with many of its railroads, towns and cities in ruins and its people starving. Gen. Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia, surrounded and with no hope of relief forthcoming, surrendered unconditionally to Gen. Grant and Union forces at Appomattox, while the Confederate government fled from Richmond and subsequently disintegrated.

    What might've been really doesn't matter, when you get right down to it. The South had its chances and blew them, and the North proceeded to open up a can of whoop-ass on them.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Shelby Foote (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:33:48 AM EST
    Says the North fought the war with one hand behind it's back and that if the necessity really arose that other hand would've come out..                                
    My personal theory as to why the South did as well as they did in some of the earlier battles was that the idea of shooting people was much less foreign to the average Southerner. As it may be today. What did Forrest say when he was raising his calvary? "Hey boys! Wanna kill some yankees?!"

    Parent
    Edgefield County (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:39:46 AM EST
    in South Carolina, in the decades leading up to the war, had a homicide rate four times higher than the metropolititan NY area.

    The real "wild west" in the decades leading up to the war was in the South.

    Also there was a Quaker influence in the North, and more newly arrived imigrants in the Union Army who, psychologically speaking, had much less dog in the fight..


    Parent

    "Murder in America: A History" (none / 0) (#87)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:37:54 AM EST
    by my friend, retired history professor Roger Lane, a wonderful book overall, is particularly excellent on that point -- the relevance of "Southern culture" (the "code of honor") to epidemics of violence in America.

    Parent
    I read a book years ago about (none / 0) (#165)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:07:28 PM EST
    "Bloody Edgefield" and remember distinctly a quote from a letter written by a citizen in the 1850s, something to the effect of "bought a new gun yesterday, and I wanted to see if it worked, so I shot a n*gger by the side of the road" That matter-of-fact..  

    Parent
    Professor Lane discusses Edgefield County (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:02:54 PM EST
    at the turn of the 20th Century as still boasting that culture. He says the county at that time had a murder rate of "something over 30 per 100,000, bigger even than the carnage recorded in medieval England."  (p. 151).  Lane comments on how a member of the Tillman family (not the one who served as Governor and later as a U.S. Senator, although he, too, is described as "an unashamedly violent man"), a politician, "shot down a hostile newsman in front of the state capitol early in 1903 -- successfully pleading self defense." (Id.)

    Parent
    In large part, the South did as well ... (none / 0) (#123)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:28:16 PM EST
    ... as it did in the early days of the Civil War due to the practical experience of its male population with firearms and military training. When the Confederate states seceded from the Union, they took with them about three-quarters of the existing U.S. officer corps, which served to excise the federal military of its institutional memory.

    But over the course of the war, as more and more northern officers and soldiers became combat veterans themselves, the issue of the war's ultimate outcome became less in doubt as the North's innate preponderance in both industrial strength and manpower made its presence felt across the war zones.

    While the South obviously had several significant opportunities early in the war to secure its independence with a quick and decisive victory, the Confederacy was never going to do well in any long-term battle of attrition with the rest of the country, into which the Civil War inevitably devolved over its four-year course.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    yup (none / 0) (#122)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:26:48 PM EST
    if the south had won the war they would have won it. Maybe right does make might.

    Parent
    I thought Scranton (none / 0) (#139)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 06:51:02 PM EST
    was part of the South...

    Parent
    just don't let the sun (none / 0) (#166)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:13:15 PM EST
    set on your as* in one of their gated communities.
    Boy.

    Parent
    I apologize, (none / 0) (#31)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:32:58 PM EST
    but it was not my intention to start any sort of serious discussion of this topic ....

    Parent
    That's the beauty (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:47:28 AM EST
    of Open Threads!

    Parent
    Me either. Yowza. (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 04:08:37 PM EST
    LOL! (none / 0) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:55:19 PM EST
    That's what you get, for giving a history buff an opening and opportunity to discuss the Civil War during its Sesquicentennial years.

    ;-P

    Parent

    I just thought I was making (none / 0) (#53)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:41:11 PM EST
    a good joke.  Shame on me.

    Parent
    ... the rest of us hijacked it for our own ends.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Adam Liptak re a man convicted of armed (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:23:41 PM EST
    bank robbery at age 23.  He has graduated from law school and will begin a clerkship for Janice Rogers Brown. Query:  will any state bar admit him?

    NYT

    Had the pleasure to meet Shon (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:47:55 PM EST
    at a recent NACDL convention; he's a student member. Exceptional guy.  Here's his website, including info on his memoir.  And a tribute from the judge who sentenced him.

    Parent
    The answer is: it depends. See page 16. (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:32:14 PM EST
    BB Plot twist (none / 0) (#10)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:47:55 PM EST
    I didn't see it coming from Walt, but Marie kind of planted the seed that Hank's actions could be seen that way if he waited too long. Of course Walt is one step ahead of Hank, as he usually is, with one notable exception! This time Marie was talking good sense - Hank should have listened to her!

    Can't wait to see where this is going. Jesse always was the most volatile chemical! Todd's uncle may be the tool, but I see the resolution playing out over the father figure relationships and jealousies that have been established over the series. Jesse jealous of Walt Jr, Hank as stand-in dad for Walt Jr.  All in all, as one of the Slate commentators said, it is not looking good for Walt Jr.

    Do you place bets on thiis? (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:50:49 PM EST
    lol...never place bets on BB! (none / 0) (#15)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:00:52 PM EST
    Still on season 4... (none / 0) (#14)
    by AmericanPsycho on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 01:52:23 PM EST
    Averting my eyes to avoid spoilage !!

    Jeralyn, if you still have an iPad (none / 0) (#16)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:07:04 PM EST
    get the 'Alchemy' interactive ebook. It is all about BB, lots of cool stuff in there. Extremely well done, with interviews with Gilligan and other producers, cast, and crew. 3D models of the White house and other sets. For $7.99 it is a bargain, I thought.

    So how are they going to (none / 0) (#18)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:35:28 PM EST
    deal with this? Breast implant explosives. Or, for that matter, any other implanted explosives. Testicles replaced with implants? Or other areas of the body. I shudder to think. Flying may well get even more unpleasant than it already is. :-(

    Goodness gracious (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:44:30 PM EST
    Great Balls of Fire!  (Sorry, Jerry Lee; couldn't resist.)

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:00:01 PM EST
    Well, they haven't suggested this. Yet. OTOH, breast implants aren't the only possible bodily implants. Gee, I guess it's going to be even more "fun" to go through TSA screening if you're a woman. Why shouldn't you men have some "fun'" too?

    Parent
    Implants and "body cavities"... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:13:12 PM EST
    Not satisfied with the quasi-2nd base patdown, TSA Agents will soon be rounding third and heading for home.  Check your dignity with your baggage.

    Parent
    Bad news for women who (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:21:14 PM EST
    have had breast cancer and reconstruction surgery.

    Parent
    Exactly so, MO Blue (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:37:25 PM EST
    But I wonder how they will be able to tell if a woman has had any kind of breast implant for any reason?  This does not bode well for any of us who need to fly on occasion.   :-(

    Parent
    Or for the cross-dressing male. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Visteo1 on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    These seem to be more of a threat.

    "Implant bombs are a one-way ticket anyway so the suicide bomber won't care what the trigger might be.

    You don't have to be a suicide bomber, if your not flying.  

    Will this threat spread to government buildings and other areas with tight security?

    Parent

    I certainly hope so. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:05:55 PM EST
    I think the far right is long overdue for a good ol' manufactured panic regarding the prospective menace of homicidal transvestites.

    "So, come up to the lab,
    And see what's on the slab.
    I see you shiver with antici--pation.
    But maybe the rain
    Isn't really to blame,
    So I'll remove the cause -- but not the symptom."

    ;-D

    Parent

    OMG! (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:34:11 PM EST
    "Got nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide."

    And speaking of nowhere to run to, Mme. Zorba, it's only exactly 13 more hours until we can finally get out of American Samoa, not that anyone's counting. The Samoan people are very friendly, and the terrain and vegetation are remarkably similar to that found on the windward side of Oahu, but Tutuila Island is only one-tenth our island's size, and we've since driven almost every single mile of roadway there is to be had here.

    Talk about island fever! Is this what I have to look forward to on my week-long business trip to Guam in October? It's been a long time since I've been so anxious to go home. There are only three weekly nonstop flights between Pago Pago and Honolulu (M-W-F), and we leave tonight at 11:20 a.m. and arrive tomorrow morning at 5:40 a.m. HST.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Have a good trip home, (none / 0) (#36)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 04:22:04 PM EST
    Donald.  
    But, yes, Guam is tiny.  Much tinier than Samoa. Pōmaika`i!

    Parent
    You can always hop over to Tinian (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:37:43 PM EST
    And see where the Enola Gay took off. My second stepfather, a sort of benevolent conman, did a lot of business in the Northern Marianas back when they were a trust territory and at the very beginning of their current makeup. Spent some time in Guam and Saipan in the late 70s. Took a crazy moped trip with an island kid on Saipan, dogs biting at our heels the entire time, until we stopped in a field where he proceeded to show me the biggest marijuana plant I've ever seen. Think was like an oak tree. We giggled a lot in my hotel room that afternoon.

    Parent
    Kind of a "Stand by me." Have you (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:41:55 PM EST
    Written this up?

    Parent
    Sort of (none / 0) (#46)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:50:59 PM EST
    Waiting to be edited by an older and wiser me. Soon tho.

    My stepdad brought a lot of Micronesian kids to the States for vocational education, which, being the soft crook he was, he made sure to make a tidy profit on. Same when we took in indoChinese refugees in the late 70s. Actually, if you've ever seen the old Cameron Crowe movie, SAY ANYTHING, the John Mahoney character -- who is pocketing the money of the elderly residents of the quite nice home he's running -- reminds me of my second stepfather. Mahoney ends up in jail at the end of that movie, my stepdad got very luck to avoid it at the end of his marriage to my mother.

    Parent

    I have two days on Saipan ... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:17:44 PM EST
    ... at the end of my trip, working at the Commonwealth Health Center, which is the main hospital for the Northern Marianas.

    I'll be seeing the former Second World War battle sites on Guam and Saipan while I'm there, but unfortunately, won't have any time to get to Tinian. From what I understand, there are still whole sections on the north side of that island which are off-limits due to unexploded Japanese ordinance, i.e., mine fields, left over from the war.

    I believe the airfield from which the Enola Gay departed for its rendezvous with Hiroshimam initial fame and now infamy is also Tinian's main airport, but don't hold me to that.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I remember in the 70s that Saipan... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:05:16 PM EST
    ...was still littered with ordinance, and I can remember well the sight of many a giant rusted artillery barrels sticking out of the jungle, and a few rusted tanks standing like skeleton in the reef. From what I can tell, the north part of the island is much more developed today, so they must have cleaned a lot of that stuff out. Can't get it all tho. Very tough job.  

    Parent
    We have the same thing in Hawaii. (none / 0) (#65)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 10:01:58 PM EST
    You go hiking in Oahu's hills and mountains, and you'll find significant remnants of the extensive military fortifications which once ringed the island, dating back to the U.S. Pacific build-up prior to and during the Second World War. Tourists who hike Diamond Head outside of Waikiki will note that the crater's rim is full of extensive tunnels and bunkers.

    For obvious strategic reasons, Oahu became the most fortified piece of American territory in our country's history. Out in the Ewa plain of west Oahu, the heavily reinforced gun emplacements of Ft. Barrette -- which once housed four massive 22-in. guns whose range covered the entire island -- have since been incorporated into the townscape, and are used commercially as public storage units. And in Waikiki itself, the U.S. Army Museum at Ft. DeRussy makes use of the still-existing massive concrete bunker once known as Battery Randolph, a heavily reinforced fortification from which 14-inch naval guns could fire one-ton explosive projectiles 20 miles out to sea at an advancing enemy fleet.

    (Battery Randolph's enormous guns were test-fired only once in December 1914, an event during which almost every window in Waikiki was blown in and damaged by the resultant concussions. Chastened and humiliated by the resultant civilian criticism, the Army henceforth conducted its live fire training elsewhere, away from inhabited areas.)

    Further, the places in Hawaii where the U.S. military trained our WWII invasion forces with live fire exercises -- Oahu's Makua Valley and Waiahole Valley, the Big Island's Puhakuloa region and the entire island of Kahoolawe -- are still primarily off-limits to civilians because of the danger posed by unexploded ordinance. And every once in a while, the Navy will still find an unexploded Japanese bomb embedded in the muck at the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Actually, Guam is 4x bigger than ... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:42:28 PM EST
    American Samoa. Tutuila Island is about 55 square miles in area, while Guam is 212 square miles. But both the two main islands of the Republic of Samoa, where we visited on Saturday and Sunday, are much, much larger than both Tutuila and Guam put together.

    Tutuila is the only island in the Samoan islands chain that has a large natural anchorage and harbor (Pago Pago) deep enough for warships and other large vessels, which is why the United States was only interested in gaining possession of the eastern Samoan islands in the late 19th century, and not the rest of the chain.

    Ironically, the political division of the Samoan Islands only came about after a rather brazen but ultimately failed attempt by Hawaii's King David Kalakaua to broker an agreement with Samoa's King Maltetoa and three rival Samoan political factions in February 1887, by which Kalakaua would become the sovereign head of a Hawaii-Samoa confederation and thus preempt the outright annexation of the entire Samoan archipelago by Imperial Germany. Maltetoa and two of the three factions immediately agreed to Kalakaua's scheme and signed a treaty to that effect with Hawaiian diplomats, while the remaining faction -- which was supported by the Germans -- resisted.

    For its part, Imperial Germany did not look at all kindly upon this development and immediately threatened war with Hawaii, which triggered an equally sharp military warning from the U.S. that hostilities with the Hawaiian Kingdom would bring the German Pacific Fleet into direct armed conflict with the already extensive American naval presence at Honolulu. Meanwhile, American diplomats had their own reasons for quietly convincing King Kalakaua to stand down and cease his interference in Samoan affairs, particularly given the U.S. Navy's own interest in acquiring Tutuila Island and Pago Pago harbor for its own exclusive use.

    After the United States annexed Hawaii in 1898, Samoa was subsequently divided between Germany and the United States and annexed the following year, per the terms of the Tripartite Convention and Treaty of Berlin between Germany and the United States. And that's why there exists an independent Republic of Samoa (formerly known as Western Samoa) and a U.S.-dependent American Samoa today.

    Guam is a little smaller than our own island of Molokai, but has over 25 times the population with 180,000 residents, or about 830 per square mile, thanks to the recent large scale redeployment of U.S. military units from their former bases in Okinawa.

    Ain't western imperialism grand?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I lived in Guam (none / 0) (#74)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 06:45:56 AM EST
    for three year in the 60s as a child. I loved it. My sister was born there in 1955 (dad's first tour). (If she runs for president, will the birthers go after her?) I understand it has turned into a major vacation destination for the Japanese. Lots of hotels and resorts that cater to them.

    Parent
    And my favorite Guam story... (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:53:59 PM EST
    ...actually comes from an actor friend of mine, who did a tour of a kid's show that made a stop in Guam for a week. He said one morning he looked out his hotel room window in the capital, and he saw three ten or eleven y.o. kids enthusiastically throwing dice for money against an overturned school bus.

    Love it.

    Parent

    I understand Guam has lots of fancy restaurants, (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:12:09 PM EST
    including Roy's.

    Parent
    The original Roy's restaurant is ... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:04:53 PM EST
    ... five minutes from my house. I wouldn't travel the five minutes to eat there, and I'm certainly not going to fly seven hours for the privilege, either. IMHO, Roy's Hawaii Kai is one of the most overblown eateries in the islands, and I wouldn't expect the Guam edition to be any different.

    Parent
    Let the A cups pass through first? (none / 0) (#22)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:56:52 PM EST
    Not my favorite (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:02:16 PM EST
    solution. Given that I am a D cup. But no implants, totally natural. ;-)

    Parent
    Another interesting story: (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 02:53:29 PM EST
    Doesn't sound like... (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:26:01 PM EST
    sound gun safety to have it dangling around your ankles scraping across the floor while getting your freak on.

    Parent
    He isn't the only one who could reach it. (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:10:08 PM EST
    Here hubby could have sued the employer as the officer was "on duty" and acting in the course and scope of his employment.   And, wait a minute, I thought British law enforcement does not carry guns.

    Parent
    Patrol officers in Britain are unarmed (none / 0) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 09:26:41 PM EST
    But that said, each police force has a highly trained tactical firearms unit at its disposal, which is roughly comparable to our SWAT teams. Of the rank and file police officers, only about 5% are authorized to carry firearms on the job, and they must attain the rank of sergeant and above in order to qualify.

    Parent
    Prostitution in Zurich (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 03:25:29 PM EST
    now moved to a drive-in business:

    Now the city has come up with a solution it believes will protect them: soliciting on the streets will be forbidden, and instead prostitutes and their clients will be expected to use a custom-built compound on an industrial site in the Zurich suburbs.

    The facility opens this week; inside the gates, which are manned by security guards, there is a "strip" which men can drive down, and select the woman of their choice.

    There are trees, coloured lights, and benches to sit on, all designed to create an atmosphere which Michael Herzig of the Zurich social services says should not be too "sad".

    But since all business must take place inside the compound, there are drive-in "sex boxes", and here the measures taken to protect the women are very apparent.

    On the driver's side, the boxes are very narrow, making it difficult for him to get out of the car. On the passenger side, there is plenty of space, an alarm button and an emergency exit.

    There are also safe-sex reminders: "There is a big HIV prevention advertisement right in front of the car, so the driver has to look at a condom, to remind him he should wear one," the city authorities say.

    And there are very strict rules: "Just one man per car, no bikes or motorcycles, no filming, and of course no littering."



    Hamsterdam! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:21:44 PM EST
    The ending to Breaking Bad was foreshadowed (none / 0) (#40)
    by Payaso on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:14:19 PM EST
    Recall Walt and Walter Jr. watching Scarface ("Say hello to my little friend")?  Now Walt has a machine gun.  

    I predict a big bloody shootout with Walt taking on Lydia and her new organization to rescue or avenge Jesse.

    Too 'on the nose' (none / 0) (#52)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 07:24:18 PM EST
    I think the machine gun is a red herring.

    Parent
    When we lived next door to meth fiends (none / 0) (#44)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 06:43:01 PM EST
    Cookers and dealers, one of the "best" things about being their neighbor was that every night a horde of giant roaches made the trek from the daytime security of the meth junkyard to the nightime cafeteria of our kitchen. You could watch the procession in the back yard, a fat black line of them making the trip every night. Why did they make this trip, facing mass death each time? Because people on meth, you know, they don't eat very much, what with those adrenalized benders that last four days. Damn I can remember how big those roaches were. Like those humungous Madagascar hissers you see on NatGeo.

    That sir, is a nightmare story... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by fishcamp on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 08:22:25 PM EST
    'Twas a long five years (none / 0) (#68)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 11:26:58 PM EST
    Quite possibly the longest of my life.

    Parent
    adult life, that is n/t (none / 0) (#69)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 26, 2013 at 11:34:27 PM EST
    Syriasly. (none / 0) (#88)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:48:17 AM EST
    There are unconfirmed reports this morning that NetanYAHOO! has died and gone to heaven while dancing a jig on the grave of the Roman - sorry, I mean American - Empire, apparently due to a fatal orgasm sparked by an early phone call on the hotline this morning from the white house.

    This may be the last straw. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 01:32:40 PM EST
    All they can take. The end of the road. Unforgiveable.

    I doubt very much that any obot will ever vote for obama again...

    Obama is (none / 0) (#100)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:08:03 PM EST
    using essentially the same lie for Syria that Bush used for Iraq 10 years ago. I feel hurt. I feel like Obama doesn't care about us. If he really cared about us, he would go to the trouble of producing an original, new lie. It's not a lot to ask from a president.

    What is "the lie?" (none / 0) (#102)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 02:24:29 PM EST
    We all know, Edger, that you loathe this President; and, that such position seems to be at the core of almost all your responses related to domestic or foreign policy.  With that in mind, what specifically & particularly is the lie to which you refer?

    Parent
    hmmm.... (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 03:15:05 PM EST
    I think next time I will begin a comment addressed to you with "We all know, christinep, that you luur-r-rv-ve this President; and that apologia will be at the core of almost all your responses related to domestic or foreign policy." and then I'll get to the meat of the matter.

    ---------
    See how obnoxious and passive-aggressive that is?

    Parent

    Again: What is the lie? (none / 0) (#125)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:35:34 PM EST
    Or is Syria the same as Iraq? If so, is Syria the same as Iraq in terms of any intervention by us, how do we know...and what is the lie?  

    As I will keep asking in a broader sense:  Is there ever a reason that the US should provide any military intervention based upon humanitarian needs?  Or are those of us who have seen so much admitted overuse of military interventionism in our lifetimes so effected by our wrongs & other countries' wrongs respecting military intervention during our adult lifetimes to even address the question. (I am one of those who have difficulty defining any standard as a result of the history of the last 40 years or so.)

    Parent

    As for the matter of my opening comment (none / 0) (#127)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:53:57 PM EST
    to Edger, I'll not beat around the bush.  The opinion underlying my harsh opener is based upon the constant drumbeat in Edger's comments that support my comment.  If it were once, twice, or ten or fifty or whatever number of times that his comments used only rather hateful conclusions about the object of his scorn, the scorn that you see reflected in my comment would not be felt nor be there.  Criticism has and should have a large, open venue ... but, the obvious hatred-injected conclusions from Edgar on the subject have been beyond the pale in recent times.  

    Parent
    So was my response (none / 0) (#128)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 04:59:17 PM EST
    The opinion underlying my harsh opener is based upon the constant drumbeat in [your] comments that support my comment. All the rest of your comment can be applied to you. All of it. The object of your "hate" is just different.

    Cheers.

    Parent

    You, my dear, seem to be playing (none / 0) (#131)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:19:22 PM EST
    Hmm... (none / 0) (#133)
    by sj on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 05:24:48 PM EST
    ...not so much. Everything I have said is true.

    Parent
    What is the truth? (none / 0) (#137)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 06:14:47 PM EST
    Can you respond to that?

    Based on the history of our recent engagements in the region, what is your level of confidence about what we are being told are the limits of our intervention, or even what we are being told about the reasons for it?

    How do you feel about the US aligning itself with al-Qaeda against Assad - any thoughts on why AQ wants to bring Assad down?  

    How about you answer some questions, christine, instead of deflecting, as usual?

    And please, I beg of you, do not serve up the usual mealy-mouthed, indeterminate, could-go-either-way response that makes me want to stick needles in my eyes; I can't deal with simpering today.

    Parent

    My answer: I do not know the truth (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by christinep on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:41:13 PM EST
    about Syria & chemical weapons usage.  IF--as the evidence to date indicates--that Assad violated international treaty & international human rights in this regard, I accept that the practical & earthly (and limited) truth is that a significant consequence should meet that use of weaponry.

    Believe me, Anne, I don't know the absolute.  None of us does.  Probably like you, I have been seared by ours and other countries tendencies to jump to warlike conclusions too quickly and too incorrectly.  BUT, the fact that others (some long dead) made bad/wrong/faulty/mendacious decisions to go to military intervention does not mean that the facts & actions will be the same or should be the same in the current instance.

    As I have been saying--and very much meaning--I am seriously troubled about both sides of this issue.  My husband & I have been talking about it today ... with somewhat different takes for now.  This strikes me as different from more recent US or UN incursions ... the hard-to-avoid conclusion that chemical gassing occurred.  (Not comparing it to The or a Holocaust, but if I lived 8 miles from the Dachau camp, to what extent would I have ignored it ... a thought that I remember having on a train from Munich to the memorial at Dachau some years back.  That is the essential question for me.  Not the replay of all the wrong things that we have witnessed in military-building over the years.)

    Parent

    We did not invade Libya (none / 0) (#140)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 06:52:25 PM EST
    Our involvement there was limited....

    Parent
    One difference between Iraq 2003 (none / 0) (#152)
    by Politalkix on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:48:09 PM EST
    and Syria 2013 is the role of France. A center right government (Chirac) in France was vehemently opposed to military action in Iraq in 2003. A center left government (Hollande) is supporting military action in Syria.

     

    Parent

    I still eat French fries, (none / 0) (#158)
    by Visteo1 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:54:53 PM EST
    but you are right.  France was not part of the "mother of all coalitions".  When does the invasion begin?

    Parent
    The greater question is.............. (none / 0) (#153)
    by NYShooter on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 10:26:39 PM EST
    why did Assad do it? I haven't read any credible opinions that the war was going so badly for the Assad regime that only drastic steps, like chemical weapons, could stem the tide of certain defeat. No, using chemical weapons at this point in the war doesn't make any readily evident sense, neither strategically, nor tactically.

    So, why did he do it? I hate to say it, but, I don't think it has anything to do with the military situation on the ground. But, rather, it has everything to do with President Obama`s (and, President Putin's) favorite game, "eleventh dimensional chess."  This doesn't look to me to have been Assad's decision. There's just no "up side" in it for him. But, for Putin, who has been playing with Obama like a kitten does with a ball of yarn, I see all sorts of psychological, KGB inspired, mischief taking place. Mr. Putin has humiliated Obama with the Snowden affair, and bit*ch slapped him a few times over the "gay/Olymics" controversy.

    I don't know what the goal[s] is/are, but, I can't see Assad challenging Obama so publicly; I definitely can see Putin doing it, though.

    Motives (none / 0) (#170)
    by christinep on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:59:01 PM EST
    You make some good points & reminders about Mr. KGB. Most of Putin's moves are almost predictable now, imo ... especially for one who fancies wrestling bears and running rapids and posing for whatever magazine and also especially if one analyzes him not only from the perspective of megalomania, but also from a remembrance of the push me-pull you relationship historically characterizing Russia's relationship with Europe.  The power inclusion seems important for him there and, definitely, in Syria.  (What I'd like to know is whether the Achilles weakspot might actually be in places like Chechnya or one of the "Stans?"  But, that is another matter.)

    Assad's motives? As you may be suggesting, Russia holds the Ace, doesn't it?  Yet, assuming Assad did act alone (or even with acquiescence), the obvious reason may be a calculation that (1) The chemical attack would weaken & otherwise erode the opposition from the rebels, and (2) That position alteration in terms of "upper hand" would allow him to push for a quicker apparent victory in what seems more & more to be a seesawing civil war while any response from the US or its allies would take a while to mount.  That is, Assad may have assumed a slow response by US and others, thus allowing sufficient time for him to consolidate power... with the further effect that responders willingness to respond would surely be eroded as well.

    Parent

    Follow the March in 1963 (none / 0) (#161)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 10:35:11 AM EST
    on Twitter!

    Today in 1963

    We've compiled moments from the summer of 1963 - a pivotal season in US history - and we're tweeting them as they happened then. A project by @NPRCodeSwitch.

    A sampling:

    Today in 1963 ‏@todayin1963 1h
    Jackie Robinson's son David is reportedly missing after becoming separated from the former baseball star.

    SNIP

    Today in 1963 ‏@todayin1963 23m
    Bobby Darin, pop singer, is being introduced over amplifier system as marchers leave Monument grounds for Lincoln Memorial.

    SNIP

    Today in 1963 ‏@todayin1963 1m
    Marlon Brando is carrying the same type of cattle prod that was used on Civil Rights demonstrators in parts of the country.