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Monday Night Open Thread

Has anyone watched the new reality program Siberia? I've never seen a reality show where they show a contestant getting killed in the opening episode. Then again, maybe it's one of the illusions of the show. [Added: Thanks to those who emailed me to let me know it's a fake reality show. The "contestants" are actors playing reality show contestants and it's scripted. I think I'd rather watch a bad reality show than a good fake one. The whole point is that even though we know the show casts them by personality type and creates the drama with pre-planned story arcs, how the contestants deal with it and each other is still up to them. On the other hand, I loved the soap opera parody Mary Hartman years ago, so maybe I'll watch a few more episodes of Siberia.]

EPIC has filed a petition with the Supreme Court to stop the NSA warrantless electronic surveillance program by vacating this Order of the FISA court. Among the questions presented in the Petition is whether the FISA court exceeded its authority :

when it ordered Verizon to disclose records to the National Security Agency for all telephone communications “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls.”

A federal judge in D.C. has ruled she is without authority to stop the force-feeding at Guantanamo due to Congress, but in her ruling, invites Obama to step up and do so.

Here's an open thread, all topics (except Zimmerman) welcome.

< Zimmerman Trial: Toxicology Report Is Admissible | Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Goes to Court >
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    Egypt is heading for chaos, if not already there (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:35:07 PM EST
    If one thing is clear, it's that religious fundamentalism and militarism are antithetical to democracy. They are both, for the most part, forms of self-inflicted and/or culturally forced mental disability IMO.

    And here's a last link to AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, volume 60 & volume 61

    The fringe on both sides (none / 0) (#3)
    by Politalkix on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:48:46 PM EST
    of the political spectrum are antithetical to democracy. To sustain democracy, you will need to compromise with people of dissenting views. We would have the same situation in the United States if we did not have the 60% in the middle. In the United States, the 60% of people in the middle drive the bus. In Egypt, the fringe (including the military) is driving the bus.

    Parent
    One size fits all analysis (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by observed on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:01:55 PM EST
    doesn't work any more that one size fits all democracy.
    The "middle" isn't always right or reasonable.
    In Egypt, one issue that isn't getting enough attention is that Morsi was involving Egypt in the Syrian civil war---at the very least by turning a blind eye to Egyptians wanting to fight in Syria.
    That could have been what frightened the military.

    Parent
    It's not quite the fringe in Egypt (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:53:28 AM EST
    The Islamists won that last election because they, clearly, holed a significant numbers advantage on "moderates". Religious fundamentalism ends democracy when elected, and so does militarism. As for fundamentalism, how do you compromise with folks who hold a literal belief in obvious metaphor? This country is not, on the whole, religious like that at all. Sure we have our peeps who do, but all stats indicate religious fealty is shrinking by the second. As for the army, compromising with folks who have a gun to your head is not exactly a recipe for national success.

    What they are facing is a frighteningly daunting task when so many of their citizens are basically slaves to theology that is spoon-fed to them by sociopaths.

    And it's not like we help at all, just the opposite, we screw things up more than we do anything else.

    But I do know there are many good people in the country. My mother made a little documentary a few years back, before the Arab Spring hit, and the entire message is one of peace and our common human bonds. And many of her friends there in education were terrified for the country's future when the Morsi took power.  I did some writing and research on it, so I do know there IS hope, however faint it seems right now. Posted it once before, I think, but give it a look, it's very informative. My mom and her cameraman got hauled in by the Egyptian secret police for six hours while making it, too. She hid her videotape/files in her pants, she said. They didn't rough her up, but gave her male partner the once over before finding business cards in my mom's purse of very influential people in Caiiro. (link)


    Parent

    Sociopaths (none / 0) (#22)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 10:07:34 AM EST
    Mental health care as we know it -- and ours isn't that great for those who truly need it and can't afford it -- is basically non-existent in the middle east, and therefore....you do the math. Hell, as my mom's little film shows, it is still a mark of "shame" to have a disabled child in Egypt. Though, hopefully, it is getting better.

    Parent
    You think the Egyptian military is fringe? (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:38:56 PM EST
    Some portion of the Egyptian military (none / 0) (#106)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:01:27 PM EST
    To be militantly secular in a conservative country is also fringe behavior. The military should return to the barracks as quickly as possible after returning the country to civilian rule. It was crazy for the military to imagine that only they could run the country for so many years, they should not try this experiment once again.
    Long lasting and best changes in society occur by persuasion, not through force. In Egypt and Turkey, the secular military would often go out of its way to insult, jail and torture conservatives creating more backlash than was necessary. Even western news agencies are saying that the 51 people killed by the Egyptian military yesterday were killed wrongly. They were fired upon without provocation. The military should tread a little lightly now; Egypt is a tinderbox. It is easy to start a civil war but very difficult to end it.
    We do it correctly in our country. We allow religious and other social freedoms and do not enforce dress codes on people. For example: A Muslim woman in the United States can wear a bikini or a hijab-it his her choice. Conservative Jewish people or the Amish or people from any other religious denominations can live their religious or secular life without being bothered by the government. However, the secular military in Egypt and Turkey would often forcibly remove headscarves from conservative women. What was worse from a progressive standpoint? Having women attend college and universities albeit with headscarves or not have them attend school because they would not part with headscarves?
    Egypt is at a crossroad. It is important for both the military as well as the Muslim Brotherhood to display moderation.

    Parent
    Do you know anything in particular (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by observed on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 11:41:40 PM EST
    about Egypt? You're blathering on as if you're an expert, but what you write doesn't make any sense.

    Parent
    On the Fringe of What ? (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 09:14:21 AM EST
    Are you seriously stating the Egyptian military is an extremest group ?

    Parent
    I think you have an odd view of their (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:40:52 PM EST
    Military, certainly not an Egyptian one because over 60% of Egyptians have a very favorable view of their military and surprisingly less than 40% of Egyptians want their military out of politics.

    Look, it isn't our or culture.  Egypts military has stabilized the whole country's relations with Israel.  When Egypt felt and was militarily inferior to Israel they were reactive instead of proactive.  Egyptians like this strong proactive thing.

    I'm just sort of amused that you brought the 60% number to the table to indicate who politically drives.  And I know what I know about the Egyptian military because so many of them are trained at Ft Rucker.  They are very tight with our military, maybe uncomfortably so, but they are not politically and socially on the same terrain as our military is in their country because their issues have been so different from ours.

    Parent

    thanks for your post (none / 0) (#124)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 01:50:00 AM EST
    Very enlightening as to the training. it should have occurred to me that aid to the military would've included significant training of officers over here. Duh. Thanks again for smacking me upside the head, Tracy.

    Parent
    I suppose it has pluses and minuses (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:01:14 AM EST
    The students that I have met seem to admire our democracy a lot.  And we were part of giving serious arms to their country.  It really upset Israel that we gave jets and tanks and attack helicopters to Egypt.  I remember that it upset some Liberals a lot, that we were arming the planet as usual.  But it was thought that if Egypt were in less of a victim stance to an overpowering Israel that it would be very beneficial to their country and so far that seems to be the case.  If the two countries ever go to war though we have made it a larger war, longer war too.  It will be horrible.

    And our country has a lot of behind the scenes influence now.  That could be a danger to their democracy.  Particularly since we will not rein in corporate corruption and greed and unethical behavior and our influence opens the door for all the dirt bags who have bought our government at this time.

    Look at Booz Allen, they can't wait to break into the whole region, because the people there have few protections and few ways to fight against an unseeable organized corporate force that will immediately establish itself and seem to make itself forever necessary.  They will create their own need to forever be there.

    We are being told by our leaders that we must have these intelligence contractors now.  They tell us though that they have scaled back on the number but they can't do this anymore without contractors.  That is a strange thing to try to sell me because I have never in my life seen any other group of people be able to throw down, align, and get done what must be done like the US military when they are told something Must Be Done.  If these contractors go to Egypt, they will be a horrible oppressive force quickly.  They'll catch a couple of trouble makers, maybe even a couple of really bad guys, and then they will have their forever argument as to why they must spy on the individual people of Egypt forever and ever.

    That is just one of the questionable corporations and practices that we will officially  infect Egypt with.  I'm pretty sure we have everyone in Egypt hacked who we can hack at this time, we just aren't doing it with the blessing of all its leaders.

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 12:56:09 PM EST
    Sh*t meet stink. I just cannot for the life of me figure out why Obama cannot bring himself to make enemies of these corporate wretches, and then kick their rhetorical and legal asses all the way to the clink. Well, shucks, forget that, I do know why, I just don't like thinking about it.

    Hope and change, baby. Who knew the change was going to be simply a few extra pennies to pick up off the pavement.

    Glad to hear your kids will gets something out of ACA tho.

    Oop, time to go visit my new shrink. Long story, with very small print and freaky thick pages. Peace out, my dear.

    Parent

    Peace out Dadler (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 07:16:44 PM EST
    Wish I understood as well how our government became so controlled by profiteers.

    Parent
    Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait (none / 0) (#141)
    by Politalkix on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 08:42:53 PM EST
    have started giving billions of dollars to the Egyptian military since Morsi was removed. The amount of money that these countries are giving the military are many times the aid we give Egypt. There is a good chance that the Middle East monarchies will exert more control over the Egyptian military in the future-not a good thing for democracy in Egypt or the Middle East. The situation seems to be fluid, there will many different re-alignments and alliances.

    link

    link

    Parent

    If at first you don't succeed... (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:38:16 AM EST
    dust yourself off and try again.  The bloodshed is horrible, but that's the way building a better country often goes.

    I think the key is establishing rock-solid protections for the minority from the tyranny of the majority in the constitution...that's where they done f8cked up the first time, and where our founders got alotta sh*t right, though we don't live up to the ideal as often as we'd like.  Morsi and the Brotherhood...too tyrannical.  I find it inspiring that the people of Egypt ain't standing for that sh*t...even if the bloodshed and chaos is heartbreaking.  It always has gotta get worse before it gets better....just look at the USA, where things are getting worse in some areas but not yet worse enough for us to get off our arses and demand better from our government.  

    Parent

    Has anyone read Daniel Ellsberg's (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:34:22 AM EST
    op-ed in the Washington Post?  If not, it's here.  And it's good; Ellsberg says a lot that makes sense, and I'm glad Snowden is getting his support.

    An excerpt:

    Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don't agree. The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.

    After the New York Times had been enjoined from publishing the Pentagon Papers -- on June 15, 1971, the first prior restraint on a newspaper in U.S. history -- and I had given another copy to The Post (which would also be enjoined), I went underground with my wife, Patricia, for 13 days. My purpose (quite like Snowden's in flying to Hong Kong) was to elude surveillance while I was arranging -- with the crucial help of a number of others, still unknown to the FBI -- to distribute the Pentagon Papers sequentially to 17 other newspapers, in the face of two more injunctions. The last three days of that period was in defiance of an arrest order: I was, like Snowden now, a "fugitive from justice."

    Yet when I surrendered to arrest in Boston, having given out my last copies of the papers the night before, I was released on personal recognizance bond the same day. Later, when my charges were increased from the original three counts to 12, carrying a possible 115-year sentence, my bond was increased to $50,000. But for the whole two years I was under indictment, I was free to speak to the media and at rallies and public lectures. I was, after all, part of a movement against an ongoing war. Helping to end that war was my preeminent concern. I couldn't have done that abroad, and leaving the country never entered my mind.

    There is no chance that experience could be reproduced today, let alone that a trial could be terminated by the revelation of White House actions against a defendant that were clearly criminal in Richard Nixon's era -- and figured in his resignation in the face of impeachment -- but are today all regarded as legal (including an attempt to "incapacitate me totally").

    Glenn:

    I encourage everyone to read Ellsberg's entire argument, as few people have greater authority than he to speak about courageous whistleblowing. Relatedly, NYU Journalism professor Jay Rosen and Charles Pierce have both written about what they call "the Snowden effect": the tidal wave of revelations about US surveillance policy stemming not only from the documents he enabled us to report, but also the resulting unprecedented focus on the Surveillance State. Writes Pierce: "Whether he likes it or not, this is the 'national conversation' that the president said he wanted. Edward Snowden, world traveler, international man of luggage, made it impossible to avoid."

    Also, there is a new video up (7 minutes) with more of the Snowden interview, here.

    Well worth a look, in my opinion.

    well (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by kmblue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:43:55 AM EST
    There are discussion boards online about e-cigarettes.  I've read 'em (google e-cigarettes)
    Many ex-smokers on the boards claim they quit "real" cigarettes in a couple of weeks and now can't stand the taste of tobacco.  In case you don't know, e-cigarettes give you a hit of nicotine without the evil leaf that causes damage.  You exhale odorless vapor.

    I'm in my ninth week without cigs and chewing a lot of nicotine gum.  I started with patches thru my health insurance, which included a class that helped.  

    I'm still addicted to nicotine, obviously.  I'm a recovering alcoholic with 30 years sober.  A list of addictive substances puts cigs at number three, and booze at number six.  Everyone in my AA meetings say quitting cigs is much harder than quitting alcohol.

    I hope to be nicotine free soon, but in the meantime the gum is a great help.  Doctors say e-cigs are better than continuing smoking.  But I
    think if I used an e-cig inside any public place, people would spring at me and demand I "put it out" not knowing it isn't real!

    Wow.... (none / 0) (#110)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:38:12 PM EST
    That's great!  Nine wks without the evil weed is no small feat.

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#126)
    by kmblue on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 07:26:39 AM EST
    for praise on not smoking.  I feel better (a lot) but oh, breaking the habit is haaaard.  

    Parent
    christinep (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by kmblue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:03:59 AM EST
    I don't understand your comment in reply to my comment about the banksters.  Either the law applies to all (as you have put about Edward Snowden) or the law applies to none.  What about the people who lost their homes and retirement savings due to the bankster's greed?  

    We could not even have the "debate" about the spying if ES had not spoken out.  You think he should surrender, I think if he does he'll be disappeared.
    Following the law does not seem to be our government's strong suit.

    By way of the explanation you request kmblue (none / 0) (#81)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:07:31 PM EST
    Of course, the law applies to everyone...even when it sometimes seems that it doesn't.  I don't want to minimize your concern, but my first thought has to do with taxes, speed limits, consumer protection issues about defective products, environmental violations, etc.  Briefly: Some people get caught, some don't; some corporations get caught, some don't...and, sometimes (or maybe more than sometimes) resource allocation--time & effort of agency personnel--determines how to enforce to send the best deterrent message.  Spending many years in federal environmental enforcement, for example, one comes to grips very quickly with the reality that the number of alleged violations could far outnumber the physical ability of personnel to be able to handle them (because budget is defined at the implementation level primarily in terms of FTE.)  Prioritization each year, as quarterly revised, is a necessity--do you want to pursue one "big guy" violation or "10 small guys" is a crude way of putting it; but, depending on what has the biggest result in a situation--what makes the biggest impact in any government program that the people want--that can change to reflect deterrence, rehab, and/or punitive responses.  

    Enforcement philosophy does consider those constraints.  When you have an individual who openly appears to violate a statute/reg, it can be more productive to respond quickly there than chase after the "really big" potential violator.  Those are policy calls in every administration...anywhere.  In the matter of a large scale setting--such as a nation--how to deploy those resources can hit a reality wall very quickly A whomp upside the head starts with: Do you want to devote more resources in an area to moving forward to correct the problems leading to a current mess (take the banking situation nationally & internationally at the start of this Administration's first term) or do you want to focus principally on retribution for past offenses?  

    One example that I respect, foremost, concerns Nelson Mandela.  We all know the outline of the story whereby a man was falsely imprisoned for more than a generation under apartheid South Africa.  When he was freed and the world even of South Africa allowed him to run for and win the Presidency there, he had a major choice.  The choice concerned acceding to the pleas & petitions of a large number of his followers (a majority, I think) and acting very strictly in pursuing the open wrongdoers (previous government leaders) in a court of law and making sure they paid for their crimes in jail, thereby doing justice & retribution.  Or, he could focus on rebuilding the country and clearly disappointing a number of followers who wanted "justice."  Mandela chose reconciliation...he chose forgiveness in a governmental sense to pull the country together.  Whether it was the right decision in a "justice" sense, people could always argue.  But, it was sure the right decision in putting the rebuilding of the country ahead of the need to do deserved retribution to the previous systemic wrongdoing system & its proponents.  For that reason alone, Mandela exemplifies great leadership.

    Believe it or not, that kind of analysis on a smaller scale here is relevant.  The question of what enforcement approach on a federal level has the most national worth is always present.  The answer is sometimes more right than wrong and sometimes vice-versa.  

    Excuse the length of this reply, but shorthand would not really work to explain my honest response to your question, kmblue.  

    Parent

    When you consider that this was the (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:41:34 PM EST
    nation whose Congress spent years and billions on a blow job, but refused to hold a corrupt and dysfunctional and criminal banking/investment system accountable, a system that had a severe and significant and negative effect on millions of people - the same nation whose Congress refused to hold a president and an administration accountable for lying us into a war and creating who-knows-how-many secret, illegal surveillance programs, it's not hard to see the message we've sent and the consequences that have flowed from all of it.

    We've told the liars, the cheats, the greedy, the power-hungry, that as long as their crime is big enough, as long as they can frighten and threaten and bully long enough and strongly enough, as long as they can make it financially rewarding to turn a blind eye, they will likely get away with it.  They will live to find bigger, badder, more devious and ingenious ways to bilk and steal and defraud.

    Dodd-Frank is a shell - it's been gutted and hamstrung by the still-powerful financial industry in cooperation with a compliant and corporate-owned Congress.

    What happens when you choose the path of least resistance is you allow the bad acts to continue, to get worse.  Which is why we have a massive and out-of-control surveillance monolith, why the banks and Wall Street are up to their old tricks.

    Honestly, if your entire comment had been [shrug] it would have made more sense than that overly-sweetened oatmeal you served up and presented as if it were a five-star, four-course, gourmet meal accompanied by a string quartet.

    Parent

    It is long, and it's not good enough (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by kmblue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:58:34 PM EST
    You talk about priorities and limitations on enforcement.  I think the banksters are a HUGE
    priority because of the suffering they caused.
    Their crimes were all over the front pages, and yet not one was prosecuted.  How is that remotely fair?
    I repeat, the law applies to everyone or it applies to no one.  
    And I don't see any banksters turning themselves in and owning up to breaking the law.

    But thanks for your effort in replying.


    Parent

    IMHO, the real "crime" here ... (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:58:34 PM EST
    kmblue: "I think the banksters are a HUGE priority because of the suffering they caused. Their crimes were all over the front pages, and yet not one was prosecuted.  How is that remotely fair?"

    ... isn't that banksters weren't prosecuted -- but rather, that what the banksters perpetrated was in most cases NOT illegal, although it clearly should have been and in many instances, used to be.

    And for that, we can thank our friendly neighborhood U.S. Congress for having loosened the laws governing the SEC and oversight of financial institutions.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I think that's a completely (none / 0) (#87)
    by sj on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:14:43 PM EST
    false comparison.
    One example that I respect, foremost, concerns Nelson Mandela.  We all know the outline of the story whereby a man was falsely imprisoned for more than a generation under apartheid South Africa...

    ..The choice concerned acceding to the pleas & petitions of a large number of his followers (a majority, I think) and acting very strictly in pursuing the open wrongdoers (previous government leaders) in a court of law and making sure they paid for their crimes in jail, thereby doing justice & retribution.  Or, he could focus on rebuilding the country and clearly disappointing a number of followers who wanted "justice."

    Nelson Mandela did not continue apartheid and other policies of his predecessors. Obama is no Nelson Mandela.

    Parent
    The economic situation (1.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:22:30 PM EST
    of poor black South Africans did not change too much in post apartheid SA. White South Africans have mostly retained the economic advantages that they enjoyed in the apartheid era but a small percentage of blacks have been able to move up the economic ladder. In neighboring Zimbabwe, lands of white farmers were forcibly taken away by Mugabe and given to black supporters.
    Given the kind of rhetoric that you and some others like to indulge in here, I have a feeling that if you lived in South Africa, you would consider Mugabe to be the hero and Mandela the villain because he let past injustices go unpunished.
    This is also the reason I will never be able to understand some of the rhetoric you and some other posters spew. I am sure that you will come back and say that I have created another "strawman", but I know you enough from your posts to be confident that I have judged correctly.

    Parent
    So ridiculous (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Yman on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 07:13:47 AM EST
    Given the kind of rhetoric that you and some others like to indulge in here, I have a feeling that if you lived in South Africa, you would consider Mugabe to be the hero and Mandela the villain because he let past injustices go unpunished.

    Was this the same Mandela that was extremely critical of de Klerk's decision to award amnesty to 3,500 police officers just before SA's first open election?  You're seriously trying to compare the 2008 election to Mandela's efforts to transition a country from apartheid/minority white rule to a democracy?

    Hahahahahahahah ...

    BTW - The Truth and Reconciliation Commission granted some people amnesty in exchange for uncovering the truth about the systemic abuses of apartheid.  Some applicants (849 out of 7,112 applications) were granted amnesty in exchange for exposing these abuses.

    If you think Obama/Bush is even remotely comparable to the situation faced by SA and Mandela, you haven't got the slightest clue.


    This is also the reason I will never be able to understand some of the rhetoric you and some other posters spew. I am sure that you will come back and say that I have created another "strawman", but I know you enough from your posts to be confident that I have judged correctly.

    Meh.

    Predicting you will put words in the mouths of others and engage in strawman arguments in much like predicting the sun will rise in the morning.

    Parent

    Oh but, I didn't say he was.... (none / 0) (#107)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:12:49 PM EST
    What I have said and keep saying is that the choice is sometimes between letting go of the past or going forward.  Mandela, as I said, focused on the forward & let go of the retribution aspect.  While that portion of my response addressed only one aspect, it was an important aspect.

    IMO, there can be no correct answer about choices such as these that societies are called to make after a trying period...after Watergate & Nixon's resignation (the Pardon) or after the Iraq War & how we got into it (the WMD fiasco.)  In both cases, my initial & strong reaction was to throw the book at Bush & Cheney...yet, in both cases, eventually I looked more & more to the future.  People approach these tough points in their nation's history differently for the reason that passionate arguments can be made in both directions.  One thing I do know: Mandela's example of national reconciliation influenced me more over the years than I ever thought possible.

    Parent

    So it was just a musing (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by sj on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 10:08:00 PM EST
    Which you are using as an example of reconciliation and wisdom in a purely theortical way and which has nothing to do with kmblue's original question.

    And maybe there are "no correct choices" but I think circumstances have made it clear that there are incorrect choices.

    Parent

    No, it was not "just a musing" (none / 0) (#130)
    by christinep on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:14:56 AM EST
    It was and is in the nature of a guiding principle or consideration.  For example, in federal enforcement, that kind of consideration--often known as deterrence/punishment or rehabilitation in enforcement actions--are spelled out in the various penalty policies for implementing statutes.  Considerations to be employed in pursuing a number of enforcement actions are not expressed in terms of formula, because "considerations" "balancing" "weighing" necessarily involve employing professional judgment...and the outcome of such considerations also necessarily involve a degree of subjectivity.  As you know, I'm sure, the biggest choices of pathways to follow in life--as well as in large organizations & government--entail a subjectivity component.  

    The "reconciliation" term, btw, was specifically used in the special panel/methodology for moving forward in the early days of the Mandela presidency. The term used then and cited by me as an example of a policy direction is so much more than "musing."  Thank you for allowing me to describe the process further, sj.

    Parent

    But it is still (1.00 / 1) (#131)
    by sj on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:44:05 AM EST
    irrelevant to the original question.

    Parent
    By way of the explanation you request kmblue (none / 0) (#82)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:07:38 PM EST
    Of course, the law applies to everyone...even when it sometimes seems that it doesn't.  I don't want to minimize your concern, but my first thought has to do with taxes, speed limits, consumer protection issues about defective products, environmental violations, etc.  Briefly: Some people get caught, some don't; some corporations get caught, some don't...and, sometimes (or maybe more than sometimes) resource allocation--time & effort of agency personnel--determines how to enforce to send the best deterrent message.  Spending many years in federal environmental enforcement, for example, one comes to grips very quickly with the reality that the number of alleged violations could far outnumber the physical ability of personnel to be able to handle them (because budget is defined at the implementation level primarily in terms of FTE.)  Prioritization each year, as quarterly revised, is a necessity--do you want to pursue one "big guy" violation or "10 small guys" is a crude way of putting it; but, depending on what has the biggest result in a situation--what makes the biggest impact in any government program that the people want--that can change to reflect deterrence, rehab, and/or punitive responses.  

    Enforcement philosophy does consider those constraints.  When you have an individual who openly appears to violate a statute/reg, it can be more productive to respond quickly there than chase after the "really big" potential violator.  Those are policy calls in every administration...anywhere.  In the matter of a large scale setting--such as a nation--how to deploy those resources can hit a reality wall very quickly A whomp upside the head starts with: Do you want to devote more resources in an area to moving forward to correct the problems leading to a current mess (take the banking situation nationally & internationally at the start of this Administration's first term) or do you want to focus principally on retribution for past offenses?  

    One example that I respect, foremost, concerns Nelson Mandela.  We all know the outline of the story whereby a man was falsely imprisoned for more than a generation under apartheid South Africa.  When he was freed and the world even of South Africa allowed him to run for and win the Presidency there, he had a major choice.  The choice concerned acceding to the pleas & petitions of a large number of his followers (a majority, I think) and acting very strictly in pursuing the open wrongdoers (previous government leaders) in a court of law and making sure they paid for their crimes in jail, thereby doing justice & retribution.  Or, he could focus on rebuilding the country and clearly disappointing a number of followers who wanted "justice."  Mandela chose reconciliation...he chose forgiveness in a governmental sense to pull the country together.  Whether it was the right decision in a "justice" sense, people could always argue.  But, it was sure the right decision in putting the rebuilding of the country ahead of the need to do deserved retribution to the previous systemic wrongdoing system & its proponents.  For that reason alone, Mandela exemplifies great leadership.

    Believe it or not, that kind of analysis on a smaller scale here is relevant.  The question of what enforcement approach on a federal level has the most national worth is always present.  The answer is sometimes more right than wrong and sometimes vice-versa.  

    Excuse the length of this reply, but shorthand would not really work to explain my honest response to your question, kmblue.  

    Parent

    kmblue (none / 0) (#114)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:51:04 PM EST
    Let me demonstrate how absurd your statement "Either the law applies to all (as you have put about Edward Snowden) or the law applies to none" sounds by asking a question.
    According to you, Snowden should not be prosecuted because some banksters were not prosecuted. Are you also going to say that because some banksters were not prosecuted, Snowden should not be prosecuted and because some banksters and Roman Polanski were not prosecuted for their crimes, Ariel Castro should also not be prosecuted? Your way of reasoning does not make any sense to me.
    As you know, I have been generally very happy with the presidency of BHO. However, 2 areas where he fell short IMO were (1)lack of aggressive prosecution of banksters and (2)not adequately addressing the growing economic inequality in the country. However, those issues should be addressed on their own, they should not be used to champion more wrongs.
     

    Parent
    We disagree, P (none / 0) (#127)
    by kmblue on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 07:31:12 AM EST
    I don't think Snowden can get a fair trial in this country.  At the moment, he's out of reach and I'm glad.  

    Obama didn't want "to look in the review mirror" about the banksters.  Gee, I wonder why he decided that.

    Parent

    All Quiet on the Snowden Front (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:30:58 AM EST
    Almost too quiet.

    If taking a Gulfstream from Moscow to Caracas, today is not the day to fly as Tropical Storm Chantal is off the Venezuelan coast.

    With the supposed deadline for accepting the Venezuelan offer having passed but no mention at all of what's happening, Caracas could still be the place with just the logistics being worked out.

    If Venezuela is the final destination, he'll likely be sitting another day or two in Moscow. A Gulfstream that has to change its course due to a storm would have fuel issues and possibly land Snowden somewhere he'd prefer not to be.

    I've changed my three final resting spots. Bolivia is out. It's just not possible to fly there from Moscow. It's now in order of possibilities: 1) Venezuela; 2) Nicaragua; and 3) (the dark horse) Iceland.

    Something that may scare Snowden off Venezuela: They don't just collect data, the government indiscriminately tapes phone calls and has released them for broadcast to television news stations when they want...not exactly the privacy he's looking for. That's a precipitous drop from the landing spot he set out to look for.

    As Oculus was to Polanski, so (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 10:21:16 AM EST
    Is CoralGables to Snowden.

    Parent
    Ha (none / 0) (#25)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    I'm guessing Polanski will end his days living a little higher on the hog with slightly more travel options. Least travel available being Assange who is effectively jailed.

    Poor Padres. Through June it looked like they could be contenders.

    Parent

    So embarrassing to be beat by the Fish. (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 10:31:36 AM EST
    Word out of Russia (none / 0) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:43:09 AM EST
    Venezuela it will be.

    Parent
    Any word on how to get him there? (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:59:51 PM EST
    Or will he live in an embassy?

    Parent
    That news was retracted (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:09:15 PM EST
    According to NPR...

    Pushkov cited Vesti 24, which cited Pushkov. And the Venezuelans cited Pushkov, who cited Vesti 24, which was citing Pushkov.

    Circular citing and since taken back. Looks like they are still trying to find an alternative rather than the current options that are more restrictive that where he's sitting.

    Wonder whether he regrets Wikileaks getting him to leave Hong Kong.

    Parent

    Thanks for keeping up with this (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:48:39 PM EST
    Makes it easier for me

    Parent
    I think that they are trying (none / 0) (#100)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:55:18 PM EST
    to make Brazil reconsider.

    Parent
    If Snowden really wants to live... (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:47:31 PM EST
    anonymously in peace, he might try Minnesota.

    Parent
    How about (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:04:28 PM EST
    Blowback on Petraeus' CUNY $150,000 salary (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:35:46 AM EST
    Late last week, NYC mayoral candidate Bill de Blasio issued a scorching letter to interim chancellor Kelly in which he demanded that CUNY renegotiate the deal.

    General Petraeus' salary of $150,000 could sponsor full tuition for 26 students. Similarly, $150,000 could fund needed books and supplies, estimated at $1,248 per year per student, for 120 students.
    ...
    To spend $150,000 for an instructor who will teach just one class once per week that will reach just 15-20 students seems to be a misallocation of vital educational resources.

    I urge you renegotiate this salary with General Petraeus to a rate that matches other professors in similar teaching arrangements, and direct the remainder of the money into tuition and resources that will better serve CUNY students.

    Sources tell me that pressure is already growing on the other mayoral candidates to do the same. New York City councilman Brad Lander has initiated a petition drive urging CUNY to rescind its boondoggle offer. link

    I agree with de Blasio on this. Ridiculous use of vital educational resources.  

    Less blowback and more political bluster (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:05:39 AM EST
    He wants votes, nothing more. In reality the city only funds 11% of the cost of maintaining CUNY. Running for Mayor means cut all the figures he mentions by 89% and then he's back to reality for what it actually costs the city.

    The average Professor's salary at CUNY is $121,534.

    Parent

    Correct me if I'm wrong (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:44:13 AM EST
    but Petraeus is not being hired as a full time Professor at CUNY. "Petraeus' duties include leading a seminar and giving two lectures." CUNY is also giving Petraeus graduate students to do the work of designing, administering, and grading for the course. From what I've read he is getting paid $150,000 for about 3 hours of work.

    The fact that the city is not paying the full cost does not negate the fact that the money could be better used to fund scholarships or to reduce the cost of college for students. Maybe in your world not being able to attend college due to the high cost or getting out of college with a ton of debt is not a big thing but for many students it has real world consequences.  

    As BTD says politicians do what politicians do, so to say that de Blasio's statement is politically motivated is a given. That fact does not IMO change my opinion that the funds could be better allocated to help more students.

    Parent

    I'm sure their plan (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 10:10:50 AM EST
    is to draw more tuition paying students and more private donations.

    As for my world. I paid my own way and it took me a long time. My daughter is quite far in debt but her almost graduate degree should pay off quite nicely. College isn't an expense, it's an investment.

    As for who the State of NY hires and what they pay their employees is actually no concern of mine. The Petraeus fee is being supplemented by a private gift for the purpose.

    McChrystal makes about $60,000 per speech. I'm sure Petraeus is in the same ballpark. Yale didn't release (as far as I know) what McChrystal was paid for his guest lectures. I would guess they are all in the same ballpark. While you and I may not consider it a justifiable cost, we also aren't running major Universities.

    But the question here is a Mayoral candidate. Last time I looked, de Blasio was in 4th in a 5 person race in two different polls garnering just 10%-13% of the vote. He'll have no more say in this than you or me. He's just looking for a headline in an election where he's getting smoked.

    Parent

    The question to "you" (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 11:41:30 AM EST
    is  a Mayoral candidate. The question to me is how $150,000 is being used by CUNY and how it could provide the most benefit to students. I completely disagree with colleges that receive taxpayer funds allocating large amounts of money to benefit a select few rather than helping more students get an education at a price that they can afford.

    A completely different world view.

    As to this:

    College isn't an expense, it's an investment.

    The Wall Street Journal reported last week that, according to Labor Department data, roughly 284,000 American college graduates are working minimum wage jobs. While that is down from its 2010 peak, it is still double the number who worked such jobs before the Great Recession.

    As the Journal notes, the share of college educated workers in minimum wage jobs hasn't changed -- it is still roughly 8 percent. What has increased, however, is the number of college graduates working for hourly pay:

    Instead, they're ending up slightly higher up the ladder, in jobs that pay an hourly wage. In 2002, college graduates made up 13% of all hourly workers. That figure has risen every year since, hitting 17.8% in 2012. There are now 13.4 million college graduates working for hourly pay, up 19% since the start of the recession. While the Labor Department doesn't provide data on how much those jobs pay, it's a safe bet most of them aren't the kind of jobs students were hoping for when they graduated.

    These increases, both in minimum and hourly wage jobs, are likely due to explosive growth in low-wage sectors since the end of the recession. Low-wage occupations accounted for a fifth of job losses during the recession, but they made up 58 percent of the jobs added since the recession's end, according to a recent study from the National Employment Law Project. Meanwhile, mid-wage occupations, which would generally cater to recent college graduates, made up 60 percent of recession losses and just 22 percent of jobs added since it ended. link



    Parent
    I rarely find anyone (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    that says...if only I didn't go to college I'd have a better job.

    30% of the US population are college graduates.
    80% of US millionaires are college graduates.

    Make of it what you will.

    Petraeus has a Bachelors Degree from West Point, and has a Masters and a PhD from Princeton. He'll get paid what the market is offering for his experience whether we think it's justified or not. If it was a private University we wouldn't know his value and it would likely be considerably more. If just three students come in from out of state to attend CUNY for their four years of college because Petraeus is teaching a course the school turns a profit.

    If he retired without a scandal he'd make double and likely will this time next year.

    Parent

    As I said you have a different world view (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:18:14 PM EST
    26 students receiving a full tuition scholarship to attend college vs 15 - 20 select students attending one class per week with Petreaus. Providing 26 more students with an opportunity for a higher education vs attracting 3 out of state students in hopes that they can turn a profit. I don't think it is even comparable when it comes to effective use of funds by a public university. You evidently disagree and are willing to defend the expense.

    The question is not IMO whether or not Petraeus will get paid what the market will bear. The question is whether or not a public university should pay out those type of funds and hope at some time in the future some kind benefactor will pick up the tab or they can recoup the funds in another manner.

    Parent

    Me neither (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by sj on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:35:43 PM EST
    I rarely find anyone (none / 0) (#34)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 11:58:36 AM MDT

    that says...if only I didn't go to college I'd have a better job.

    I have, however, found many who have said if only I didn't go to college I wouldn't be in unmanageble debt for the rest of my life.

    The "market" that buys Petraeus should be just that: a market. As in private sector. Not in public funds.

    Parent

    But I am finding I work... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:41:35 PM EST
    with people who say "why did I spend all that money on college to end up with this stinkin' job?"  ;)

    I was like you, paying my own way working full time and taking classes...then I realized since I wasn't really all that interested in a specialized field, nor did I have much of a clue of what I wanted to "do with my life" outside enjoying it as much as possible in a beach bum sorta way, I decided to stop wasting my money on an education I could get, as Will Hunting once said, "for a dolla fifty in late charges at the public library".

    Not a total waste though...met some cool people, lots of partying, and scoring drugs was such a breeze!

    Parent

    Here's something that may give you (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:53:22 PM EST
    pause:    

    Behind Wal-Mart, the second-largest employer in America is Kelly Services, a temporary work provider.

        Friday's disappointing jobs report showed that part-time jobs are at an all-time high, with 28 million Americans now working part-time. The report also showed another disturbing fact: There are now a record number of Americans with temporary jobs. Approximately 2.7 million, in fact. And the trend has been growing.

    Link

    The days of getting a college education for something as esoteric as broadening one's knowledge and becoming a more well-rounded person are just over; now it's all about getting a job.  

    I suspect there are a lot of unhappy college graduates who pursued a course of study because of market potential and little else - who now are working temp jobs and wondering how they will ever pay off their loans.

    Parent

    And those part-time and temp workers (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:59:41 PM EST
    will be required to purchase health insurance on their own, even though business owners with more than 50 employees will be getting off easy for the next year with a nice reprieve.

    The mAGiCaL exchanges will just be great for part-time and self-employed folks. I can feel it in my bones.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#132)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    I agree. It was a great move by CUNY.. Petraeus was offered more by other Universities and took the job at CUNY.  I am sure that he will inspire many young students and it will be a win win for all.

    CUNY is a great school. I attended, and they have one of the highest pay scales for professors, which is a good thing.

    Of course some like MOBlue would reduce all the salaries of the professors and open up more scholarships. That would destroy the quality of the school, but would increase the student body.

    Good thing that bean counters do not run the school.

    Here is some background on the Petraeus offer.


    Parent

    You almost start making sense (1.00 / 1) (#134)
    by sj on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 11:10:14 AM EST
    and making a case for your point of view and then you veer off into maliciously putting words into the mouths of others like this
    Of course some like MOBlue would reduce all the salaries of the professors and open up more scholarships.
    You just love doing battle with opponents that you create out of thin air.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 11:38:54 AM EST
    The logical conclusion is that MOBlue is a bean counter, knows the price of everything and the value of nothing, at least in the case of CUNY hiring decisions. Also, susceptible to political sloganeering, aka con artists.

    Based on her statement, it is logical to assume that she would do calculations to cut salaries, and use that money to increase scholarships.

    Better for her to work on bringing up the quality of MO State Universtiy..  CUNY is doing fine, imo

    Forbes ranking:  

    MO State U :  594
    CUNY: 369

    Parent

    That's only a (1.00 / 1) (#136)
    by sj on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 11:54:57 AM EST
    "logical conclusion" in Bizarro world.

    Parent
    BTW (none / 0) (#137)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 12:05:11 PM EST
    You should also take your own advice.. just sayin..

    Parent
    I have no advice for you (none / 0) (#139)
    by sj on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 01:17:46 PM EST
    I have only observations.

    Just sayin'...

    Parent

    Background (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 10:58:51 AM EST
    It was a plum gig (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:45:12 PM EST
    David Petraeus always gets himself into those.  He has a talent. But I have heard that not only is he intelligent, he values it in others and seeks out views and teachings of others. He always has a passel of free labor following him around.

    Parent
    Not just de Blasio protesting CUNY's (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:06:45 PM EST
    use of funds.

    The American Association of University Professors has denounced the decision

    Also I have been unable to find any documentation to support your claim that

    The Petraeus fee is being supplemented by a private gift for the purpose.

    This is what I have been able to find on the "private donors are paying for this" line of argument

    could fly as a defense of CUNY's conduct under one circumstance only: if a fundraiser approached CUNY offering $150K for this purpose alone and could not be persuaded to allow CUNY to do something useful with it instead. Otherwise, as I said it's no defense at all; the fact that CUNY is willing to spend money and raise it later for this purpose is not meaningfully different than using pre-existing funds. (After all, CUNY can only ask the same people for money so many times; money raised for purpose A probably can't be raised for purpose B, and the choice of what to raise money for reflects the administration's priorities.)

    As of the morning of July 1, according to CUNY's own spokesperson, the funds had not yet been secured.

    More:

    It is also not quite accurate to claim that Petraeus' salary will not be funded by taxpayers. CUNY is a public university. According to the CUNY spokesman, Petraeus will be paid from the University's Research Foundation. However, there are no grants or donations specifically earmarked by donors to pay for Petraeus. That means the salary will come from the Foundation's general funds. Money sources are fungible in a large institution and when CUNY takes funds from one place, it affects other funds, specifically tax dollars and student tuition payments. This hire definitely involves tax dollars and public spending.


    Parent
    Rethinking Surveillance (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:52:35 AM EST
    by Kenneth Roth - a long but interesting article on collection of our metadata.

    "The rationale that we have no privacy interest in our metadata because we share it with phone or Internet companies to route our communications was always a fiction."

    The government now has the technology to collect, store, and analyze information about our communications cheaply and quickly. It can assemble a picture of everyone we call or email--essentially our entire personal and professional lives--with a few computer commands. In addition, given the pervasive presence of geo-locators on our smart phones, the government is able to electronically monitor and reconstruct virtually every place we visit--a capacity that will only increase with the growing practice of photographing our license plates and the rapid improvement of facial-recognition software in combination with proliferating video cameras.
    ...
    The government's new and intrusive capacities should prompt a rethinking of the law. The rationale that we have no privacy interest in our metadata because we share it with phone or Internet companies to route our communications was always a fiction. After all, this routing information is in the same stream of electrical data that includes the contents of our communications. Both are shared with phone and Internet companies by necessity, but for a purpose: to enable our communications in the modern era, not to share them with anyone but their intended recipients. These companies should not be understood as random third parties to whom in choosing to expose our electronic activity we can be said to forego legitimate expectations of privacy. Instead, they should be viewed as custodians of today's dominant forms of communication with a duty to protect their confidentiality. Only if the government has been able to demonstrate extraordinary circumstances--generally, by obtaining a targeted court order reflecting probable cause to believe that the communications in question contain evidence of criminal activity to which access is needed--should this confidentiality be broken.


    Jim Comey's confirmation hearing, to (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:09:24 AM EST
    be head of the FBI, is today.

    Coleen Rowley has some questions she'd like him to be asked:

    1. Will you maintain the F.B.I. ban on torture and coercing of statements and confessions? Would you instruct F.B.I. agents to investigate all credible reports, including those involving other federal personnel, of violations of Sections 2340 and 2441 of Title 18 of the United States Code, which define torture and war crimes? (In 2002, according to a Justice Department report, F.B.I. agents at Guantánamo Bay created a "war crimes file" to document accusations of prisoner mistreatment by American military personnel, but an F.B.I. official ordered that the file be closed in 2003.)

    1. In March 2004, you argued that the N.S.A. surveillance program was illegal. Do you still believe that the domestic communications of American citizens can be legally monitored by the government only with a judicially approved warrant? If so, what assurances about the warrantless surveillance scheme did Mr. Bush offer that persuaded you to stop opposing the program?

    2. Do you stand by your statement, made at a Justice Department news conference in June 2004, that it was right to hold Jose Padilla, an American citizen who was arrested on American soil, in a military brig (for two years at that point) without charges?

    3. Why, in April 2005, did you approve 13 harsh interrogation tactics, including waterboarding and up to 180 hours of sleep deprivation, for use on suspects by officers of the C.I.A.?

    4. Do you stand by a speech in March 2009 in which you spoke of the need to "incapacitate" terrorists who could not be prosecuted, either because of a lack of sufficient evidence or because the information had been secretly provided by a foreign country? Do you believe that since procedures exist for "preventative detention" of people with dangerous mental illness, there should be a similar way to detain terrorism suspects without trial?

    5. Do you believe there is a trade-off between civil liberties and national security, or do you think, as Mr. Obama stated when he ran for president, that this is a false choice? Where do you believe the balance between privacy and safety can be found, when the government has ready access to vast amounts of data collected by communications companies?

    6. The N.S.A.'s data-mining operations seem to be sweeping up information involving foreigners and American citizens alike. How can we preserve the distinction between "non-U.S. persons" abroad, on whom officials have virtually unlimited authority to conduct surveillance, and "U.S. persons" inside our borders, on whom they lack authority to conduct warrantless surveillance?

    7. Can you explain why the F.B.I. has submitted requests to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for phone call data, even though the data is to be directly furnished to the N.S.A.? How does the F.B.I. follow up on such requests to ensure that the N.S.A. is protecting the rights of American citizens?

    8. Are the N.S.A.'s data-gathering efforts, disclosed in recent weeks, an outgrowth of Mr. Bush's earlier warrantless surveillance program, to which you objected? Do they relate to the "Total Information Awareness" scheme proposed by John M. Poindexter, a retired admiral and former aide to Ronald Reagan, that was terminated after it was made public in 2002?

    9. Do you believe that the F.B.I., in investigating a leak of classified information, was right in 2010 to call James Rosen, a Fox News reporter, a potential "co-conspirator"?

    10. Officials say that great national harm will result from the disclosure of secret activities that are legally questionable. What do you think of this proposed remedy: The government should abide by international law and refrain from infringing on the rights of American citizens in the first place?

    There's not a snowball's chance in hell that any of these get asked, but I applaud Rowley for putting them out there.

    Marcy Wheeler adds 5 questions (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:12:31 AM EST
    she'd like Comey to be asked:

    1. The May 10, 2005 torture authorization you signed off (as well as the Combined of the same date one you objected to) on was retrospective. What were the circumstances of the treatment of this detainee? Was that detainee water-boarded, in spite of CIA claims only Abu Zubaydah, Ibn Rahim al-Nashiri, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were?

    1. Do you believe the High Value Interrogation Group (HIG) should be authorized to use "separation," including modified sleep deprivation, to coerce confessions?

    2. Do you believe it legal or advisable to delay presentment for detainees interrogated by HIG so as to set up up to two weeks of unsupervised interrogation?

    3. FBI has used the Section 215 authorization -- the same law used to collect every American's phone data -- to collect lists of common products that on very rare occasions have been used as precursors to explosives. They could and may well have used the same authority with pressure cookers. Is collecting such a broad sweep of innocent activity in pursuit of terrorists the best way to identify them? What do you believe the appropriate use of Section 215 authority is?

    4. Through the entire financial crisis, it appears the FBI did not use all the investigative tools available, including (with two or three notable exceptions) wiretaps and phone and Internet tracking, when investigating large financial institutions. This appears to be true even when, as with your former employer HSBC, the institution had clear ties to terrorists and Transnational Criminal Organizations. What tools do you believe appropriate to investigate large financial institutions and do you plan to change the approach to investigating financial crime?

    Wouldn't it be great if we could have a People's Hearing?

    Parent

    Comey on torture and surveillance: (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:44:15 PM EST
    His testimony, so far, appears to be an exercise in how-to-succeed-in-politics, more than anything.

    He was against torture, but approved it -- because apparently, it was legal. But he wants you to know he thinks waterboarding is really bad!

    Also, despite rushing to Ashcroft's hospital bed to prevent unwarranted surveillance, he thinks some surveillance without warrants is really okay.

    It's a brilliant performance. Say a lot of nothing -- earnestly -- and get confirmed as next head of FBI. It's a slam dunk, as Tenet would say!

    Parent

    A little more from the NYT article: (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:48:32 PM EST
    They have pointed to the other surveillance programs that Mr. Comey supported -- like wiretapping without warrants -- as examples of how he is comfortable with an array of controversial programs. A senior Bush administration official who worked closely with Mr. Comey said that "he was quite comfortable with a whole bunch" of government surveillance programs and that he had repeatedly signed off on their authorization.

    "There's one very big problem with describing Comey as some sort of civil libertarian -- some facts suggest otherwise," Laura W. Murphy, the director of the American Civil Liberties Union's legislative office in Washington, said in an article published by The Guardian.

    She added: "While Comey deserves credit for stopping an illegal spying program in dramatic fashion, he also approved or defended some of the worst abuses of the Bush administration during his time as deputy attorney general. Those included torture, warrantless wiretapping and indefinite detention."



    Parent
    The little bit I was able to listen to had (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:56:49 PM EST
    me clicking for the video to see if those asking the questions - I'm looking at you, Chuck Schumer - were on their knees under the witness table...so much fawning and gushing, it was a perfect example of why we are where we are.

    Disappointing, but not at all surprising.

    Parent

    Schumer was probably (none / 0) (#54)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:02:32 PM EST
    on his knees AND reaching around for someone's wallet. (He's known for sticking friends with the bill after dinner..."Oh, my. I seem to have forgotten my wallet. Could you..?)

    Parent
    On his knees... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:09:59 PM EST
    reaching for wallets, and always in search of the nearest camera.

    Call it the Chuckie Schumer Trifecta!

    Parent

    ...where the odds are always 2-1. (none / 0) (#57)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:12:56 PM EST
    Speaking of wallets (none / 0) (#61)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:19:10 PM EST
    and of course the Mets, how crazy is Anna Benson?

    Parent
    Not as crazy as Kris... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:28:46 PM EST
    for ever saying "I do".

    I think dropping a dime and having her locked up was a bad play, it's just gonna make her angrier and crazier...think Kris is eligble for the witness protection program? ;)

    Parent

    She's carrying a (none / 0) (#67)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:35:33 PM EST
    gun, a knife, a hatchet, mace, and a retractable baton while wearing a bullet-proof vest. I couldn't drop the dime fast enough. I might also be willing to trade places with Snowden when she gets out of the lockup.

    Parent
    I don't know... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:40:48 PM EST
    I woulda just paid her off, then moved to Venezuela.

    On second thought, it was a Venezuelan girl who once went half Anna Benson on me...things are tough all over on the woman scorned front;)

    Parent

    "Mathilda, she take me money, (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:19:12 PM EST
    and run Venezuela. Cross the Water."

    Parent
    Wonder if Fox will highlight (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:56:23 PM EST
    Indiana's War on Religion. :[

    New Indiana Law:

    The new law also makes it a Class B Misdemeanor for a clergyman, judge, mayor, city clerk or town clerk-treasurer to perform a same-sex marriage, punishable by up to 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $1,000.  Any clerk who issues a license to a same-sex couple would also be guilty of a Class B Misdemeanor.

    Wait a minute. The government -- excuse me, THE GOVERNMENT! --can tell a member of the clergy the people for whom that member of the clergy can and cannot perform a wedding? link  


    The felony aspects of the new law are reserved for gay couples.

    New Indiana Law Makes It A Felony For Same-Sex Couples To Apply For A Marriage License

    I guess we're not making any (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:08:11 PM EST
    progress on making stupid and ignorant illegal, are we?  I daresay there's a whole lot more of that than there are gay people who want to get married.

    What the hell is wrong with people that they have to spend so much time and energy fighting - and hating - something that doesn't affect them?

    Some days, I truly despair for the future of this country if this is what we've come to.  As it is, I'm starting to wonder if my vision is going to adjust for all the eye-rolling I'm doing...

    Parent

    Isn't that a violation of the ... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:00:34 PM EST
    ... First Amendment's separation of state and church? This law screams for some federal judge to declare it unconstitutional. As long as the clergyman isn't attempting to sign some state marriage license, what business is it of anyone over whose commitment ceremony he or she is officiating?

    Parent
    They will... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:15:38 PM EST
    and call it a War for Religion.

    Parent
    Yet another, false voter fraud claim ... (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:05:25 PM EST
    ... is debunked, this time in South Carolina.  This was the case where DMV director Kevin Shwedo claimed dead people appeared to have voted in recent elections.  "Well over 900 individuals appear to have voted after they died," Shwedo said at one House hearing on the matter. Republican Rep. Alan Clemmons, proclaimed gravely in another hearing, "We must have certainty in South Carolina that zombies aren't voting."  S.C. GOP Attorney General Alan Wilson claimed "We know for a fact that there are deceased people whose identities are being used in elections in South Carolina."

    At the time, State Election Commission director Marci Andino said the agency had investigated a handful of cases where it appeared the names of deceased people had appeared on polling precinct signature rolls, but found nothing nefarious.

    She explained that of the initial batch of six names of allegedly dead voters on the DMV's list, one had cast an absentee ballot before dying; another was the result of a poll worker mistakenly marking the voter as his deceased father; two were clerical errors resulting from stray marks on voter registration lists detected by a scanner; and two others resulted from poll managers incorrectly marking the name of the voter in question instead of the voter above or below on the list.

    The agency went on to investigate more than 200 other names on the dead voter list and found zero cases of illegal activity.

    I'm sure these SC Republicans and Fox News will be issuing an apology/correction any day, now.

    Judge rules lawsuit against NSA can continue (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:30:32 PM EST
    CNET

    A federal judge ruled today that a long-standing lawsuit alleging illegal surveillance by the National Security Agency may continue despite the Obama administration's objections.

    U.S. District Judge Jeffrey White in San Francisco rejected the administration's claim that the lawsuit could not proceed because it might reveal "state secrets" and endanger national security.

    The Electronic Frontier Foundation filed the lawsuit, called Jewel v. NSA, in 2008 to challenge a NSA's warrantless surveillance program that vacuumed up Americans' confidential electronic communications. It alleges (PDF) that the NSA "intentionally and willfully caused" or directed AT&T to permit access to its fiber links in violation of federal wiretapping laws and the U.S. Constitution.

    "One small step for the case, one giant leap for the Constitutional rights of mankind," EFF attorney Kurt Opsahl wrote on Twitter this afternoon.

    No doubt, the administration will throw up every roadblock they can to prevent this from actually going to trial. But, for now, it's a good result.

    30,000 California Inmates on hunger strike (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:26:22 PM EST
    protesting torture by indefinite terms, even decades, of solitary confinement at famously sterile hellholes like Pelican Bay. Per policy, California prison officials refuse to acknowledge that it actually is a hunger strike until nine meals have been missed.

    Totally and utterly reasonable... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:58:51 PM EST
    list of demands.

    It's long past time we seriously curtail, if not abolish, the torture of our prisoners via isolation.  Make no mistake, it is torture.

    Parent

    Am I the only one (none / 0) (#79)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:53:30 PM EST
    that if I found myself in jail, would cherish the chance to stay away from the general population and would gratefully ask for solitary? Torture to me is being stuck living with people I don't care to know.

    Parent
    Maybe for a week, or even a year... (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:55:36 PM EST
    you would dig it...but eventually you would go stark-raving mad, it is only a matter of time.

    Parent
    Space: The Final Frontier. (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:35:08 PM EST
    Most of us have obviously been around a while, and I'm sure many remember when the space probe Voyager 1 was launched into the solar system back in 1977. Scientists thought at the time that it would last only a few years, until it made it to Saturn.

    Well, some might be interested to note that nearly 36 years later, Voyager 1 is STILL transmitting data back to earth from the far reaches of the solar system, beyond Pluto and on the cusp of interstellar space. What a long strange trip it's been.

    Aloha.

    I think... (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:50:59 PM EST
    Captain Kirk eventually destroys it.

    Parent
    Rarely is the question asked: (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:22:27 PM EST
    Why isn't Congressman Darrell Issa in jail? Calbuzz makes a compelling case that voters in California's 49th congressional district (northern San Diego County) are a bunch of wankers, fools and saps to keep re-electing this first-class a$$hole and sending him back to Washington, given both his dubious personal history and his breathtakingly fraudulent performance as Chair of the House Committee on Oversight.

    The real question is, is it possible (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:43:31 PM EST
    for an a$$hole to be "first class?"

    Seems like something of an oxymoron, which I guess beats being a plain old moron.  Come to think of it, Darrell Issa could only dream of being be an oxymoron.

    Parent

    Siberia (none / 0) (#2)
    by Philly on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 10:45:07 PM EST
    Siberia is a scripted show presented in the style of a reality show.  I haven't seen the pilot yet, but plan to follow it.

    I've been watching "Under the Dome" (none / 0) (#4)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 08, 2013 at 11:25:11 PM EST
    The pilot was very intriguing -- engaging premise, some good acting. The second episode, last week was weaker. Looking forward to seeing what they come up with for tonight.

    WSWS: Hands off Edward Snowden! (none / 0) (#5)
    by Andreas on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:54:44 AM EST
    The WSWS writes:

    One thing is certain, if the US government was willing to risk the life of the Bolivian president by aborting his flight plan as his plane was in midair and running low on fuel, it is obviously prepared to murder Snowden himself to stop his disclosures. ...

    It cannot be left in the hands of the bourgeois nationalist governments in Latin America, which seek their own means of accommodating US imperialism and furthering the interests of their own ruling classes, nor in those of Vladimir Putin's corrupt regime of the Russian oligarchy in Moscow.

    The working class in the US and every other country constitutes the only genuine constituency for the defense of democratic rights. It alone can mount a viable opposition to the police-state measures that are embraced by wealthy ruling layers in the US and around the world to defend a system characterized by vast social inequality, economic exploitation and political oppression.

    Mass support must be mobilized in workplaces, schools and neighborhoods in the US and around the world around the demand of "Hands off Edward Snowden!" His defense must be coupled with that of Private Bradley Mannning and Julian Assange, who are like him facing state persecution for exposing the crimes of US imperialism, and turned into the spearhead for a struggle in defense of democratic rights and against the capitalist profit system that gives rise to war and the threat of dictatorship.

    Hands off Edward Snowden!
    9 July 2013, by Bill Van Auken


    "Mass support" (none / 0) (#29)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 11:48:16 AM EST
    Even at the depths of BushCo's Pennsylvania Avenue residency, there seemed to be very few protests and protesters at the White House gates.

    Disinterest?  Agreement with Bush policies?  Protest gone online?  Or maybe it was intimidation by the blackshirts who patrol the White House grounds with dogs wearing those hideous Hannibal Lector masks?

    Parent

    We don't fathom how what they are doing (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:41:37 PM EST
    Harms us.  When some of us speak of turnkey police state, nobody has experienced it yet and they don't want to be seen as pessimists (which is UnAmerican, to be a scoffing negative impediment to progress) or conspiracy theorists.   Trouble is, this issue is sort of like when so many got conned into the Iraq War, we knew what BushCo was capable of, we had all sorts of evidence of what policies his key advisors had sought for years too, but few wanted to go on the record that "these people" are this vile.  But once they have sent your military into an occupation it's too late then.  Then you are stuck with a military having to fight its way out now too.

    I don't think we want to be honest with ourselves either that knowing with certainty now they have every communication we have had, that this is now affecting our communication.  We are now officially oppressed.

    And they said that this revelation has now aided their enemies, it has changed the actions of our enemies.  I guess that means that I was the enemy because I have changed my communication behavior starkly now.  But Osama bin Laden, he had no phone or Internet access to his home...zero.  I think "the enemy" has always been sufficiently wise about what our hacking capabilities are.  They haven't changed their behavior, I have, and some of my leaders have gone on the record now claiming this information changed the enemy.


    Parent

    has anyone tried (none / 0) (#6)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:04:33 AM EST
    e-cigarattes? good brands? Effectiveness? I have a couple of friends who are looking into it. Yes, one of them is me (shameful). I started at 13 with my dad's cigs and quit for 20 years, but now that the kids are smoking I'm back much to my horror. But the horror is allayed by the nice ritual of it. I want to try e-cigs. Anyone???

    I haven't... (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 11:05:51 AM EST
    but I've tried the vape pens and full size vaporizers with the sacrament...same concept.  They're great as a healthier delivery system, but I still like smoke better.

    I've heard some not so good things about the other chemicals in the nicotine liquid used in e-cigs...you might want to look into using a vaporizer with organic tobacco.  That's probably the leat harmful way to get a nicotine fix.

    Parent

    PBS dared air a story questioning the ban (none / 0) (#58)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:13:18 PM EST
    on outdoor smoking, here.  

    As is typical on this subject, the comments are partisan, an unmitigated lovefest.

    Parent

    The fix is in, it seems... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:41:50 AM EST
    A proposal in Congress touted as increasing oversight of the National Security Agency could instead derail legal challenges to the U.S. government's warrantless demands for confidential customer data.

    Legislation introduced last month by Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary committee, alters the ground rules that currently permit U.S. companies to object to a secretive intelligence-gathering technique, called a national security letter, used by the federal government to obtain both individual and bulk customer records.

    Part of Leahy's proposal prevents companies from directly challenging the legality of NSL requests in their local courts, meaning they need to rely on the Justice Department to initiate litigation in a jurisdiction of its own choosing -- a dramatic change that raises the cost of a legal challenge and reduces the odds of it succeeding.

    "Leahy's bill seems to remove the ability of recipients to initiate their own challenges to an NSL gag order," said Matt Zimmerman, a senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which is litigating an NSL case in San Francisco. If the measure becomes law, Zimmerman said, EFF might not have been able to file its lawsuit in the northern district of California, and the Justice Department "most certainly would not have either."

    More at CNET July 09: NSA Senate oversight bill may handcuff U.S. companies



    Have I mentioned lately (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by sj on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 12:21:31 PM EST
    that I hate these people?

    Parent
    They already knew that. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:07:05 PM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    And they will be mailing out fundraising asks (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:19:57 PM EST
    next week.

    Parent
    They have balls (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:29:44 PM EST
    if nothing else, I guess...

    Parent
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 62 (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:54:48 AM EST
    It struck me this morning (none / 0) (#37)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:07:31 PM EST
    in Florida's trial of the month, that if the defendent is found guilty he'll go to jail and Florda will be a safer place. If he is found not guilty, he'll likely leave the state and Florida will be a safer place. As a Florida resident, it's a win either way.

    Yeah, but if he's acquitted, his face is (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:10:53 PM EST
    going to be everywhere you turn - all the morning shows, the talk shows, the nightly news, 20/20, Dateline, 30 Rock, Charlie Rose, Piers Morgan...

    Parent
    I really hope to Gd that does not happen. (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:46:49 PM EST
    if he's acquitted, his face is going to be everywhere you turn

    Even if it was justified self-defense, he still killed someone. I hope people have the sense not to glorify that but I won't hold my breath.

    Parent

    Lucky for me (none / 0) (#49)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:52:39 PM EST
    I avoid TV news as I prefer my own opinion over that of a babbling head. Call me old fashioned. I want news when I look for news. When the news folk decided their opinion was more important than the news and their name recognition was more important than the news, I turned them off. I prefer reporting over punditry and that's a lost profession.

    I look forward to a safer Florida, but feel sorry that another state or country may become less safe soon.

    Parent

    It's hard to find good reporting (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:10:49 PM EST
    Even NPR has jumped the shark. Their "news hour" is filled with a lot of rightward bias, and the rest is fluff pieces for the celebrity-oriented.

    Parent
    IMHO, the Martin / Zimmerman case ... (none / 0) (#118)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:07:42 PM EST
    ... has managed to bring out some of our absolute worst character traits as Americans regarding our respective attitudes about race -- and as the media fans the flames, I'm finding the trial less fascinating than repellent.

    We have our own ongoing legal drama happening out here with the just-commenced trial of Christopher Deedy, the 29-year-old federal agent with the U.S. State Dept.'s Diplomatic Security Service who's been charged with second-degree murder in the Nov. 2011 shooting death of a young Hawaiian man at a Waikiki McDonald's, which occurred in the wee hours after the defendant apparently spent the night drinking at Coconut Willie's in the International Marketplace.

    Deedy has repeatedly attempted to invoke his status as a federal agent to claim federal immunity from state prosecution, but the 9th U.S. Court of Appeals denied his claim last Friday and instead ordered him to stand trial in state court, which started yesterday.

    I'll just say that on the basis of evidence presented thus far, alcohol and firearms don't mix. Further, the deceased was a high school classmate and friend of Elder Daughter, and this case has become a real sore point with her. (I never met him, but I do know that he was one class ahead of her in school.)

    So, while we've tried to warn her that she's likely to hear some rather unflattering things about her late friend over the coming weeks, because Deedy is claiming in court that he fired his gun in self-defense. But she gets militantly angry just talking about the defendant, and there's absolutely no question in her own mind regarding what the jury's verdict should properly be.

    I do hope the Deedy trial doesn't ultimately prove to be a rude awakening into adulthood for her. It's been rather painful for me to watch these last blinders of youth get ripped away from her, as she struggles to reconcile her own hopeful but naïve notions about justice and fair play, with the way that legal events can sometimes unfold in the real world.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I will be moving to FL in a few months. (none / 0) (#52)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 01:57:34 PM EST
    I am really not looking forward to it. Every other crazy story you read in the news seems to come out of FL.

    Parent
    In a few months is the right answer... (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:27:08 PM EST
    skip the summer here if you can help it! I'm in Orlando...be happy to give you any tips and get together once you are here!


    Parent
    I was wondering if you were going to (none / 0) (#115)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 08:52:01 PM EST
    chime in... :-)! I knew you were in Orlando but for some reason I thought you were moving out of there. I must have you mixed up with someone else.

    We have a year to accomplish our move but I want to get it done sooner rather than later. I am planning to be in Tampa early Aug for a couple of weeks to look around and then I will travel back and forth till we have our housing situation settled. We have been trying to buy a house here for the past 3 years but something or the other came up and we kept postponing making an offer. I am tired of renting, so I won't move till we have a house to move into.

    Parent

    Fear not... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:14:35 PM EST
    there are just as many NY/Njers in Fla as in NY & NJ.

    Bad news is they may be mostly the NY/NJers who value guns and no state tax;)

    If it's South Florida you'll be all right...north of Palm Beach is where it gets really weird, unless you're in the college towns of Gainesville or my old stomping grounds Tallahassee.

    Parent

    Tampa.... :-) (none / 0) (#63)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:26:44 PM EST
    Whatever ya do... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:34:45 PM EST
    don't move in to a gated community...too dangerous! ;)

    Before you leave us, consider attending the Americanarama Festival in Hoboken 7/26, right on the pier...Bob Dylan, Wilco, My Morning Jacket, and Ryan Bingham.  La mujer especial and I will be there, gotta show her the very best of the USA ya know, if ya let the media tell it we're all a buncha arseholes and sh*theads;)

    Parent

    Hate to disappoint you.... (none / 0) (#71)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:58:27 PM EST
    have lived in gated communities most of my life, living in one now.... :-)!
    And from what I have read online it looks like FL is gated community heaven/hell depending on your perspective!

    Will keep the festival in mind. Thanks!

    Parent

    As Peter Tosh once said... (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:19:03 PM EST
    "the rich man's heaven is the poor man's hell".

    You must be one of the lucky gated community ones;)  My sister is in one of those cul de sac no through traffic communities less the gate and rent-a-cop, I feel so unsafe when I visit, 2 cops and a sherriff live up in there. One of 'em flies the "Don't Tread on Me" flag, which I find hysterical. I told my brother-in-law "does he realize he is the treader?"

    Parent

    While the rent-a-cops don't bother me for (none / 0) (#78)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:51:24 PM EST
    the most part, what annoys me are all the rules and regulations the HOA comes up with in these types of communities.

    I was hoping it would be different in Tampa but from what I have read and the people I have spoken to, it seems to be much worse there. I looked at some houses online that are a little further out of the city (not out in the sticks, but about 20 miles from downtown) and none of them have public utilities. Well water and septic tanks! I have no clue about those types of things.

    So I can go with the cookie cutter house in the gated community or be a pioneer woman (yes, I know I am being ridiculous! ).

    Parent

    Don't worry about the well water ... (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:10:31 PM EST
    ... and septic tanks.  We have a place in the Poconos that has both well water and septic and it's really not much different.  We have the well water tested every year and the septic tank emptied every 8-10 years (although that varies depending on the system).  The biggest inconvenience is that we can't have a garbage disposal.  Other than that (and no water bill - savings of @ 1,600/year), there's no difference between our municipal water/sewer at home and the well/septic tank up there.  In fact

    You might want to do a little research for wells/septic tanks in that area, but it may be a small price to pay for no HOA.

    Parent

    And the Even Bigger Advantage... (none / 0) (#85)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:22:57 PM EST
    ...is spring water at the tap.

    I love going back home and drinking the water at my parents, nothing like it.  Straight form the ground.

    My water bill is $30/mth.  Yours is over a hundo ?

    Parent

    That, too (none / 0) (#86)
    by Yman on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 04:38:08 PM EST
    Even though our water in NJ is pretty good, the water in the Poconos is better - no chemicals and that slightly sweet taste you gt from real spring water.  Not sure if this would hold true in Tampa or not.

    We get billed quarterly for water/sewer and it averages about $400/quarter.  No swimming pool, but a spa/hot tub, 4 kids and occasional use of a sprinkler system during dry spells in the summer.

    Parent

    Thanks, Yman. (none / 0) (#89)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:37:07 PM EST
    I have been doing some research into the well water/ septic tank issue. Hopefully, I will get a better idea when I go down there to check out some houses.
    I would not be worried about well water if I was in the Poconos or most of upstate NY and parts of NJ. I am not so sure about the water quality in Florida though.

    Parent
    Just keep in mind your Duty to Retreat (none / 0) (#60)
    by Leopold on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 02:16:50 PM EST
    Speaking for myself only, unless I'm in the military and have to go wherever they order me, I reserve any decisions regarding where I live for myself. I think life's simply too short to spend significant portions of it stuck in ol' Lodi again, or any other locale where I've absolutely no desire to be.

    If it's a job-related issue with you, I hope for your sake that your employers are aware of your trepidations about Florida, and are making it worth your while. And if it's family-related move, you should probably also let them know how you truly feel, as well -- if only as a pre-emptive measure, so you don't just unleash any pent-up resentments abruptly during a heated moment at a later date, to everyone's chagrin and remorse.

    Good luck. Aloha.

    Parent

    Husband's job. (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 03:27:50 PM EST
    He was looking for a change from his current position. The people he will be working with in the Tampa office are people he really likes and they have been asking him to work out of there for a while now. He is very well compensated so that is not an issue.
    I am not working and we have no children, so can't use that as an excuse to not move.

    As for pent-up resentments, let's just say that he is very aware about my feelings/views on a multitude of subjects. Our move to FL being one of them.... :-)!

    I am trying to focus on the positives though. It has my kind of weather. I will be able to garden almost year round. Houses are way cheaper than they are in NJ. He won't have a hideously long commute everyday or the ridiculously long hours he keeps at the NYC office. So, we might actually get to spend some time together and enjoy life some more.

    Parent

    Tampa is fine (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by fishcamp on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:21:06 PM EST
    great beaches, restaurants, shopping, entertainment, and of course, fishing.  I don't think you can dig a well since it's all salt water about five feet down.  It is a bit crowded over there and it does get very hot this time of the year but I think you will like it once settled.  Good luck.

    Parent
    I believe you on the great beaches and the (none / 0) (#93)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:54:13 PM EST
    fishing but for restaurants, shopping and entertainment, I am going to miss NYC!

    I will have to look into the well water situation some more. Right now, I am going by what I read on the realtor websites.

    Parent

    It's not NYC (none / 0) (#95)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 05:58:57 PM EST
    but the cigars are better.

    Parent
    I have a cousin who lives in Tampa. (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:10:10 PM EST
    He and his family moved there in 1999 after he retired from the Navy because it was cheaper than our native Southern California, and they do seem to like the Tampa Bay area.

    Having visited them there a few times, I can definitely say that it's a modern urban environment with all the amenities you might find appealing in an urban setting, and while it's obviously not New York City, it's also not the boondocks, either.

    Anyway, it sounds like you're keeping an open mind about the pending relocation, and I hope everything goes smoothly with the move. And who knows, maybe a year or two from now, you'll find that the area has grown on you.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Orchids (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:01:00 PM EST
    I never thought I could grow orchids, but the weather helps.  I bought five baby slipper orchids last year, experimental crosses.  I can't believe they like me.  When they were ready for medium change all the roots looked good and teenagers now.  I may get flowers this fall.

    Parent
    I have a lot of orchids.... (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by vml68 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:14:25 PM EST
    a variety of phals, cattleyas, onicidiums, vandas, slipper orchids and a couple of phrags!

    I know they will be a lot happier in FL than NJ. I plan to expand my collection quite a bit after I am settled there!

    Parent

    They are all new to me (none / 0) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:31:51 PM EST
    I used to have a lot of cactus.  They either love it here or hate it and eventually leave.

    I was very intimidated by orchids, but they haven't been as complicated as I anticipated.

    And I can still have iris, they seem to love it here but not commonly sold here.

    My key lime tree has produced the first bumper crop this year.  I planted avacdos though on a lake shoreline and beavers ate the heck out of that :)

    Parent

    Breaking Baseball (none / 0) (#97)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 06:01:02 PM EST
    Major League Baseball is expected to suspend as many as 20 players including Ryan Braun and Alex Rodriguez sometime after next week's All-Star break, according to "Outside the Lines."


    Why can't MLB suspend them prior ... (none / 0) (#103)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:13:30 PM EST
    ... to the All-Star Break, so that the game's announcers have plenty to talk about in between pitches? :-D

    Parent
    For the past week (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:46:43 PM EST
    Whenever I visit Talkleft my anti-virus goes off and says it is blocking a Trojan.

    He's not Zimmerman and he's not Snowden (none / 0) (#120)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 09:16:34 PM EST
    so he's flying under the radar, but will Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell survive his last 6 months in office? It's looking more and more like we could have a resignation in the Commonwealth.