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Thursday Open Thread

Here's a thread to discuss all topics except the George Zimmerman trial. Please comment on Zimmerman in a Zimmerman thread.

< Zimmerman Trial: State's Closing Argument | Zimmerman: Anticipating Mark O'Mara's Closing >
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    Making some progress (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Peter G on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:02:58 PM EST
    in our Pennsylvania case, filed earlier this week, already.

    Microsoft: helping the NSA get (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:20:55 PM EST
    around encryption:

    Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

    The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last month.

    The documents show that:

    • Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;

    • The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;

    • The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;

    • Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

    • In July last year, nine months after Microsoft bought Skype, the NSA boasted that a new capability had tripled the amount of Skype video calls being collected through Prism;

    • Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport".

    Link

    This takes balls:

    Microsoft's latest marketing campaign, launched in April, emphasizes its commitment to privacy with the slogan: "Your privacy is our priority."

    Similarly, Skype's privacy policy states: "Skype is committed to respecting your privacy and the confidentiality of your personal data, traffic data and communications content."


    Jesus.

    Most android phones too (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 09:15:42 PM EST
    To have NSA embeddedness for our protection they say.

    link

    And I missed when Google and the CIA actually went into business together.

    link

    Parent

    5 biggest myths (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:44:48 AM EST
    about federal contractors

    Every year, the federal government awards private companies half a trillion dollars in contracts for goods and services, but since most agencies don't publicly report key details about how they fill their contracts, we don't really know what they're doing -- or if we're getting our money's worth.

    And few of us realize the kind of employment practices being financed in our name through these contracts. One surprising secret is that while companies rake in huge contracts from the government, hundreds of thousands of private sector workers are toiling in the public's interest for poverty wages, under harsh conditions, and with little protection from the law. As one of the biggest purchasers of goods and services in the country, our government has also become one of the biggest contributors to income inequality.

    Five myths:


    1. Myth:  All contractors are highly-paid fat cats.
    2. Myth: Government contracting saves taxpayers money and increases efficiency.
    3. Myth: The federal government holds contractors accountable.
    4. Myth: Federal contracting has kept the DC economy healthy, and created a tide that raises all boats.
    5. Myth:  The Obama administration and Congress has already fixed this problem.


    Parent
    Happy Days Are Here Again! (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:08:32 AM EST
    JP Morgan Chase up 32% 2nd Quarter, Wells Fargo up 20%.

    Who said crime doesn't pay?  

    I'm down another few percent, like most all working people...but the health & happiness quotients are holding steady, and that's the metric that counts.

    My beer stock (none / 0) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:29:10 AM EST
    is up 38%. Beer and profit. That combination  is even better.

    Parent
    Which brew? (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:30:22 AM EST
    Better not say Coors!

    Parent
    BREW (Craft Brew Alliance) out of Portland (none / 0) (#69)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:46:44 AM EST
    although if I wasn't trying to score a longshot I would have done better with SAM (Sam Adams). It's still early though. Maybe my brew will be strong in the stretch.

    Parent
    In that case, nice score! (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:59:54 AM EST
    I'll go ahead and assume they're not doling out millions to keep my preferred reefer illegal like Coors...you're off the hook bro.  And they make money spreading a buzz...honest work, unlike the crew I mentioned.

    Maybe when the Craft Growers Alliance is traded on the NYSE I'll start gambling on stocks...Bambu is not publically traded to my knowledge.  

    Parent

    Boston Beer (SAM) ?... (none / 0) (#70)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:46:48 AM EST
    Though thanks to Ben Helicopter Bernanke pretty much any stock would have made you a nice profit these past few years.

    Parent
    Ha! I guessed wrong. (none / 0) (#71)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:48:34 AM EST
    Don't mind me, I am feeling a little bitter about yesterdays ridiculous run-up.

    Parent
    As a long term holder (none / 0) (#79)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:07:42 PM EST
    Run-ups of the Dow, S&P and NASDAQ never inspire me nor do the usual following days drops bother me. But to be fair the runups do make me smile more.

    I'm a firm believer in long term averages and try to ignore the peaks and valleys. Even Yasiel Puig will likely revert to the mean.

    Parent

    Yesterdays run-up did not make me smile (none / 0) (#81)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:15:14 PM EST
    at all, I was short the market and Ben's after hours sweet-talk on Wed caught me with my pants down (figuratively speaking!).

    Parent
    Are you going to wade into the .... (none / 0) (#1)
    by magster on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 05:53:26 PM EST
    Aaron Hernandez case, Jeralyn? Or are you going to take a break from the nationwide circus cases?

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 64 (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 06:08:27 PM EST
    Ima 44 girl (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 10:46:27 PM EST
    It cracks me up just thinking about it.  I live in a very religulous place though, where hell is so real everyone but me can see it, and I don't know what to do about it to fit in?  Throw a yoga pose at it?

    Parent
    What HRC is doing (none / 0) (#3)
    by Politalkix on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 07:59:35 PM EST
    So? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Angel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:20:14 PM EST
    Are you asking me something? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Politalkix on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:27:34 PM EST
    If you are, then state more clearly.

    Parent
    More clearly: (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 11:14:43 PM EST
    So what?

    Parent
    Clear as mud! (none / 0) (#17)
    by Politalkix on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 11:40:33 PM EST
    Anyways..

    Parent
    How about this? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 06:31:43 AM EST
    What was your point in posting that link ... assuming there was one.

    Parent
    Perhaps, in light of the fact that one (none / 0) (#25)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:24:27 AM EST
    poster - Coral Gables - is giving us the Daily Snowden, Politalkix has decided to give us the Daily - or Whatever - Hillary?

    Makes as much sense as anything, I guess...

    Parent

    If so it's not very thorough Hillary updates (none / 0) (#26)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:47:41 AM EST
    New National Q Poll:

    Hillary 46%
    Christie 40%

    Hillary 50%
    Paul 38%

    Parent

    Nope, but it really depends ... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:06:43 AM EST
    ... on why he thought the article was significant and his purpose in posting it.

    I guess there really was no purpose or significance.

    Parent

    It seems he wanted to draw attention to (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:14:24 AM EST
    the rather high price ($200K plus travel and other expenses to be negotiated) of a Hillary Clinton speech, but the question is, why?

    Is it because that high price will negatively affect her public perception and hurt her chances of running in 2016?  

    Is it because she will have a hard time positioning herself as a champion of the people if her price tag seems to be in reach of the 1% crowd?

    Or maybe Politialkix is just looking to get something started.  I have no idea.  

    What I do know is that no matter what Clinton does, someone will have an objection or want to make something evil and sinister out of it. I mean, how many times do we have to see this play before we say, "oh, yeah - I remember this now..."

    Frankly, the thought of it just makes me feel tired.

    Parent

    Naaaaahhhhhhh ... COULDN'T be (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Yman on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:20:18 AM EST
    I'm sure he'll be posting the same articles when Obama leaves office and starts getting paid for speeches.

    Heh.

    Parent

    what isn't mentioned (none / 0) (#82)
    by kmblue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:15:24 PM EST
    is that she gives free speeches that are always "sold out".  And the ones that are paid for draw packed houses too.  Where are the right-wingers who promote capitalism now?

    Parent
    There does seem to be (none / 0) (#30)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:23:47 AM EST
    an aversion here at times to other people making large sums of money so perhaps that was the implied purpose. Or maybe it really was just to mention what Hillary is up to these days.

    I have no idea of the views on Hillary of the original poster though I could probably hunt them down. My Hillary views are clearly biased:
    I hope to vote for her in 2016.

    Parent

    Reply to Coral Gables (post # 30) (none / 0) (#141)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 06:03:13 PM EST
    Would like to point out that it was one of 3 posts (in the last 2 days) where I didn't express any opinion but just a link because I thought that the subject would be interesting to some.
    Regarding my views about HRC: I think that she and BHO are centrist democrats whose politics define mainstream politics in the country. There is not much difference between them on issues. I prefer BHO over her but prefer her over many other politicians.
    The response from some posters did seem a trifle amusing to me.

    Parent
    As is yours (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 12:40:09 PM EST
    Just a "trifle".

    Parent
    No better (none / 0) (#19)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 11:46:41 PM EST
    It still has terrible punctuation. "So what" wouldn't warrant a question mark as no question is implied and it doesn't lead with an interrogative word. But you two carry on weilding dull knives at each other.

    Parent
    What was the intent of your post? (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:09:01 AM EST
    Simply posting something with no additional comment begs the question "So?"  Or the question "So what?"  

    Parent
    She also romped (none / 0) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 11:40:51 PM EST
    in an Iowa poll out today. She's easily their choice for the Dem nominee, and also topped all GOP challengers head to head.

    Parent
    Whistleblowing in Russia (none / 0) (#5)
    by Politalkix on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:13:05 PM EST
    Struck me Yesterday (none / 0) (#6)
    by DennisD on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:16:22 PM EST
    Why aren't defendants apparently privy to sidebars?

    Given the likelihood that responses (none / 0) (#10)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 08:35:54 PM EST
    to this are likely to veer into the Zimmerman trial, this seems like a question better posed in a Zimmerman-specific thread; this one is for non-Zimmerman subjects.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#12)
    by DennisD on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 09:29:08 PM EST
    I was just looking for a legal answer. I'll ask in Zimmerman thread sometime.

    Parent
    In a recorded statement to constituents ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 09:39:21 PM EST
    ... tonight, San Diego Mayor Bob Filner confirmed the validity of sexual harassment charges leveled against him this afternoon by former City Councilwoman Donna Frye and two attorneys, which he admitted were serious because the three of them are his friends, and he apologized for his behavior. But will his mea culpa be enough to save him politically?

    Can it be addressed without the rest of us (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 11, 2013 at 09:57:52 PM EST
    Knowing the details?  The article said "the women" are still too intimidated to come forward.  Sounds bad from this armchair.

    Parent
    Probably not, given that Mayor Filner ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:51:08 AM EST
    ... has stated tonight that he does not intend to resign from office. In my opinion, his apology was probably sincere, but it just doesn't quite cut it. Someone's going to have to step out from the shadows, and clarify publicly with some candor exactly what these allegations against him really are.

    Parent
    If they hadn't been his friends... (none / 0) (#20)
    by unitron on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:36:47 AM EST
    ...would it somehow have been less serious or less objectionable?

    Sounds like he needs to worry about something other than his political career.

    Parent

    We are often our own worst evaluators ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:36:56 AM EST
    ... when it comes to our own personal behavior. Sometimes, it takes withering criticism from someone we know and respect and perhaps even love, before our eyes are opened to the truth regarding how our own actions have affected others.

    That said, I have no idea what went on at San Diego City Hall to bring about Donna Frye's call for her friend to resign as mayor. It's pretty obvious at that news conference that she was deeply saddened by what she felt compelled to do today (she had to stop at one point to regain her composure), so I'd say that it's probably more serious than the mayor telling a few off-color jokes to the wrong people. But since Mayor Filner has for now rebuffed calls to step down, until one of the complainants actually goes public with real allegations, who's to say how this will ultimately play out?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Friday Morning Snowden Update (none / 0) (#24)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:12:14 AM EST
    We have something, though not too much as of yet.

    It appears Snowden may be finding himself handcuffed, figuratively not literally, as he has asked to meet several human rights groups today at 5pm Moscow time which I believe is 9am ET.

    No press has been invited and the belief is he may now be attempting to get human rights groups to help him leave, or get them to back the possibility of staying in Russia.

    He is likely facing one or two current issues in his quest for asylum: 1) As a wanted fugitive, all available avenues of flight are currently blocked; or 2) the offers of asylum from South and Central America may have been verbal but not official as to not inflame tensions with the US.

    Transparency International has acknowledged receiving an invite, and it's believed the Moscow wing of Amnesty International as well as several others may have also been invited.

    Official word from the Kremlin is they did not receive an invite.

    Newest potential final landing spots for Snowden:

    1. Venezuela
    2. Nicaragua
    3. Sheremetyevo Airport Transit Area (new)
    4. Iceland (down 1)
    5. Langley (new)
    6. Russia (new)


    Meeting is taking place (none / 0) (#31)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:46:05 AM EST
    Photo taken inside

    No mention yet as to who else is attending.

    Parent

    Suggested he will (none / 0) (#32)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 08:48:47 AM EST
    officially ask for asylum in Russia as he is currently without travel options, with the intention of leaving for another country later.

    Parent
    Here is a link to ongoing coverage (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:04:47 AM EST
    by The Guardian.

    From the coverage:

    Ellen Barry of the New York Times reports that Tanya Lokshina of Human Rights Watch, who is in the meeting, says Snowden has said he has received offers from Venezuela, Russia, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Ecuador. He thanks them. He says he accepts all offers, present and future. The offer from Venezuela has been made formally. He wants help in guaranteeing his safe passage to Latin America, she says. He will submit an asylum claim to Russia today, but he plans to go to Latin America eventually, she says.

    And

    As mentioned earlier, the Kremlin said previously that Snowden had withdrawn a previous request for asylum in Russia after Vladimir Putin said he would be welcome only if he stopped "his work aimed at bringing harm" to the United States.

    If Barry and Lokshina are right, Snowden has now reconsidered this. He seems to be saying that the only way he can guarantee his safety where he is now, before he heads to Latin America, is to gain temporary asylum in Russia.

    Stay tuned.

    Parent

    Summary of activity today - so far - (none / 0) (#38)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:58:12 AM EST
    from the Guardian link:

    * Edward Snowden is claiming asylum in Russia, with a view to staying there temporarily before claiming asylum in a Latin American country. He said he had received offers from Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Ecuador.

    • The Kremlin said earlier this month that Snowden had applied for asylum in Russia but withdrawn his claim after Vladimir Putin said he would be welcome only if he stopped "his work aimed at bringing harm" to the United States - but today Snowden said this was not an issue: "No actions I take or plan are meant to harm the US ... I want the US to succeed." But in response Kremlin spokesman Dmitri Peskov repeated Putin's demand and said he was unaware of a formal application from Snowden.

    • The former US intelligence agency contractor - whose leaks to the Guardian about US surveillance have caused controversy the world over - was speaking at a meeting he had called with representatives of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, as well as Russia's presidential human rights ombudsman, a Russian MP, and a Russian attorney. Media were not allowed into the meeting, but the participants gave numerous interviews detailing what he had said afterwards. WikiLeaks, which has been helping Snowden since he left Hong Kong last month, said they would issue a statement from the whistleblower later today.

    • Tanya Lokshina of Human Rights Watch, who was at the meeting, sent the Guardian what was the first photograph the world had seen of Snowden since he revealed himself in a Guardian video last month.Snowden looked much the same as he did in his Guardian interviews from Hong Kong, dressed in a similar open-neck shirt, with stubble and glasses, although his hair was a little longer. Lokshina said that HRW felt that Snowden had a "prima facie case" for asylum because "his concerns about possible ill-treatment if in custody in the United States are legitimate".

    • Snowden told the meeting he felt safe at the airport and his living conditions were good, but he knew he could not stay there for ever. He said he was recognised as an asylum seeker by the UN High Commission on Refugees - but the US, he said, did not recognise this, as the Morales plane affair showed. He said he wanted international organisations to petition the US and EU not to interfere with his asylum claim.

    • Meanwhile, in the latest in its series of scoops based on documents provided by Snowden, the Guardian this morning reported that Microsoft had collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption.


    Parent
    Snowden speaks, through Wikileaks: (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:11:43 AM EST
    Link:

       Hello. My name is Ed Snowden. A little over one month ago, I had family, a home in paradise, and I lived in great comfort. I also had the capability without any warrant to search for, seize, and read your communications. Anyone's communications at any time. That is the power to change people's fates.

        It is also a serious violation of the law. The 4th and 5th Amendments to the Constitution of my country, Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and numerous statutes and treaties forbid such systems of massive, pervasive surveillance. While the US Constitution marks these programs as illegal, my government argues that secret court rulings, which the world is not permitted to see, somehow legitimize an illegal affair. These rulings simply corrupt the most basic notion of justice - that it must be seen to be done. The immoral cannot be made moral through the use of secret law.

        I believe in the principle declared at Nuremberg in 1945: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

        Accordingly, I did what I believed right and began a campaign to correct this wrongdoing. I did not seek to enrich myself. I did not seek to sell US secrets. I did not partner with any foreign government to guarantee my safety. Instead, I took what I knew to the public, so what affects all of us can be discussed by all of us in the light of day, and I asked the world for justice.

        That moral decision to tell the public about spying that affects all of us has been costly, but it was the right thing to do and I have no regrets.

        Since that time, the government and intelligence services of the United States of America have attempted to make an example of me, a warning to all others who might speak out as I have. I have been made stateless and hounded for my act of political expression. The United States Government has placed me on no-fly lists. It demanded Hong Kong return me outside of the framework of its laws, in direct violation of the principle of non-refoulement - the Law of Nations. It has threatened with sanctions countries who would stand up for my human rights and the UN asylum system. It has even taken the unprecedented step of ordering military allies to ground a Latin American president's plane in search for a political refugee. These dangerous escalations represent a threat not just to the dignity of Latin America, but to the basic rights shared by every person, every nation, to live free from persecution, and to seek and enjoy asylum.

        Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.

        I announce today my formal acceptance of all offers of support or asylum I have been extended and all others that may be offered in the future. With, for example, the grant of asylum provided by Venezuela's President Maduro, my asylee status is now formal, and no state has a basis by which to limit or interfere with my right to enjoy that asylum. As we have seen, however, some governments in Western European and North American states have demonstrated a willingness to act outside the law, and this behavior persists today. This unlawful threat makes it impossible for me to travel to Latin America and enjoy the asylum granted there in accordance with our shared rights.

        This willingness by powerful states to act extra-legally represents a threat to all of us, and must not be allowed to succeed. Accordingly, I ask for your assistance in requesting guarantees of safe passage from the relevant nations in securing my travel to Latin America, as well as requesting asylum in Russia until such time as these states accede to law and my legal travel is permitted. I will be submitting my request to Russia today, and hope it will be accepted favorably.

        If you have any questions, I will answer what I can.

        Thank you.

    Will be interested to see how this statement is received, and whether it changes the perceptions at all of those who see him as an America-hater.

    Parent

    A moving and powerful statement... (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:18:46 AM EST
    will Big Brother retort?

    Parent
    Although it may sound good (none / 0) (#47)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:26:44 AM EST
    Legally it is full of errors.

    Parent
    You follow the news... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:28:46 AM EST
    the "legally/illegally" is where it gets twisted! ;)

    Parent
    kdog (none / 0) (#49)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:38:38 AM EST
    My gut feeling is that meeting had to be more to gather sympathy as opposed to making progress at getting out of the airport. Hoping that was the goal anyway because I don't think he helped his cause for relocating from the transit zone this weekend.

    On the plus side for him, Russia didn't even have to let the meeting take place since they let people go to him when that easily could have been prevented. It's not like he's holed up at the local Holiday Inn. From all reports, anyone in the transit zone for more than a few hours is stuck inside their room with no options for roaming. You are effectively under guard at all times.

    Parent

    Anne is trying to Copt your exclusive (none / 0) (#145)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:39:34 PM EST
    franchise!

    Parent
    I prefer to think of it as "assisting;" (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:58:28 PM EST
    no intent to take over The Daily Snowden.

    Parent
    Initially, it had been reported that the (none / 0) (#58)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:05:35 AM EST
    US Ambassador to Russia had asked the Human Rights Watch representative to convey to Snowden that the US did not categorize Snowden as a whistleblower.  The Ambassador has issued a statement denying that he did any such thing.

    I don't know if the HRW rep has weighed in with her recollection.

    I will leave it up to you to decide which version - if any - you believe.

    Parent

    Moving and powerful, indeed (none / 0) (#105)
    by sj on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:31:13 PM EST
    But I doubt it will change the mind of any who see him as an America-hater. They are too invested in the idea of "USA! We're number one!" and see any criticism of the government as "hating".

    [As a BTW, one thing I cannot forgive Sara Palin for: the idea that criticism=hating and that those who criticize (no matter how valid) are just "haters". And I can't believe how the lexicon has taken hold in the so-called "left" side of the aisle.]

    This -- what Edward Snowden has done -- is true patriotism. To act because loves his country more than he fears his government. Especially since I'm pretty sure he fears his government plenty.

    Like kdog said before me, Snowden is a better man than me.

    Parent

    A few possible flaws (none / 0) (#42)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:17:33 AM EST
    I don't think he can claim asylum in Russia, either temporary or permanent, but rather he needs to ask for asylum. I'm also not sure he currently qualifies for UN refugee status as that too likely needs to be applied for and not just claimed...nor do I believe he qualifies under current guidelines.

    Remember, he had previously applied for asylum in Russia and then withdrew the petition. My hunch is his meet and greet may not have helped his cause with his hopes for Russia. Time will tell.

    Again, the Jeralyn long-standing legal advice of less talking may help his cause to find a landing spot. He may have possibly hindered his chances again today.

    Parent

    One Would Think... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:43:10 AM EST
    ...but I don't know, that he is getting more legal advise than he can process.  Certainly the human rights groups come with lawyers, ditto for the countries offering asylum.  Surely he looked into it to some degree before he went public.

    What the hell does he do all day, does he have internet/phone access or is he reading and watching TV.  Is he in the actual airport, or some lounge with showers and comfortable seating.  I also wonder where he is sleeping.

    The NSA has to be watching that airport like a hawk, I would love to see the bill for all the resources being dedicated into watching and getting Snowden back into US custody.

    It's seriously like one of the Jason Bourne movies, where the US Intelligence agency is run amok with corruption and one man has the power to expose them and is being hunted like an animal, sans the action scenes.

    Parent

    From all reports (none / 0) (#56)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:57:44 AM EST
    of people that have been in the transit zone without a ticket on the next available connecting flight, you get a hotel room and you stay in the room for the duration. A guard makes sure you abide by the rules. You aren't permitted to wander outside your room. Food is available through room service. I would imagine Wikileaks is paying the tab for now. You are boxed in until you fly out.

    Parent
    I think its pretty clear... (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:46:52 AM EST
    his primary "cause" was/is exposing rather massive constitutional crimes committed by the United States government.  Staying out of the clink is his secondary cause.  Finding a place to live out of the clink # 3.

    If his personal liberty were his primary cause (and it sure as hell is mine!), he'd still be at his desk at Booz/Carlyle Group perusing Google's servers.  He's a better man than me.

    Parent

    My sentiments exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:16:00 AM EST
    I don't get the people who are questioning his motives for going public. Which person in their right mind takes on the US government unless they truly believe in their cause?

    He is going to be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. How many people are willing to live like that?

    He is definitely a better person than me.

    Parent

    What a world... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:24:21 AM EST
    when my f8ckin' arse is a better candidate to be a government snooper than an actual former government snooper. I talk a lot of sh&t but I ain't gonna actually do any of what needs to be done and go and get myself locked up...I'm just not that cool:(

    Parent
    You've got lots of company, me included. (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:43:27 AM EST
    And the people who say he should come back and face the music, would never have the guts to do what he did.

    Having lived in the middle-east and having family there, I always wondered if my calls were being monitored. I guess I have the answer now!

    Parent

    Sh*t kid... (none / 0) (#72)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:50:03 AM EST
    you're probably on all the suspect lists! You may as well be Trayvon walking home from the store, with the NSA playing the Zimmerman role.

    There have been alotta break-ins/terror activity, dontcha know...so suck it up and let the NSA listen.  Privacy and liberty are overrated anyway;)
     

    Parent

    I have no doubt about that.... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:59:07 AM EST
    you're probably on all the suspect lists

    Particularly because Papa vml is very generous with his money. Was not a problem before 9/11 but since then, get grilled by my banker every time there is a transfer into my account here since it comes in from a bank there. I know they have to report it to the government and I can understand why but it still makes me nervous that they are monitoring.

    Parent

    Double sh*t... (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:02:10 PM EST
    If he's giving to charities that help Arabs, they're watching Pops like a f*ckin' hawk too.

    Parent
    Pops does not believe in giving to charity.... (none / 0) (#84)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:31:12 PM EST
    that is moms job. Pops is a SUCKER for his kids, extended family and friends and it ends there. Mom believes just the opposite, that everything should go to charity and that kids, family, friends need to make their own way!!

    BTW, I meant to share this story with you...
    Recently, my in-laws visited my parents at their home for lunch. Our maid was there too. After lunch while mom was doing the dishes in the kitchen, maid was sitting on the couch eating a bowl of ice-cream. Made the in-laws extremely uncomfortable. They commented to my husband that you would never be able to tell who the maid was, LOL!!

    Parent

    I like your Mom... (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:41:33 PM EST
    does she bus her own table at restaurants like me too? ;)

    Regarding giving to your children...I tell my moms constantly if she leaves me any inheritance at all I will find her beyond the grave and kick her in the arse...I want her to spend every penny she's got on herself, which means on her grandkids, but still;)

    We've talked about domestic help before...I've actually hired some, I sh*t you not.  Part of our sweetheart rent deal with our sweetheart landlady is we the tenants take care of all the upkeep and maintenance ourselves.  The house lawnmower was giving me fits the other week, it's on it's last legs and I hate to ask the landlady for anything  so I've just been struggling with it.  The neighbor across the way who landscapes for a living saw me struggling and offered to do our front lawn once every two weeks for 20 bucks per mow.  I took him up on it, 5 bucks every two weeks per tenant in the summer, how could we say no? Ya can't beat that with a stick. Now I just gotta struggle with the yard with the old mower.  

    Parent

    Wonder about the degrees of separation (none / 0) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:00:59 PM EST
    Calls made to and from the Middle East Russia, Cuba or travel to those destinations for family reasons seem vulnerable? How about those people who have family connections with those who make and receive calls and/or travel to the Middle East, Russia, Cuba etc.? Or what about those who have an on-line relationship with people who make and receive calls and/or travel to the Middle East, Russia, Cuba etc?

    Parent
    Oops! Sorry, MO Blue....:-) (none / 0) (#78)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:05:20 PM EST
    what about those who have an on-line relationship with people who make and receive calls and/or travel to the Middle East, Russia, Cuba etc?


    Parent
    No need to apologize to me (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:41:17 PM EST
    One of my family members married someone from the Middle East who still has family there.

    Seems IIRC someone who was a regular member of this on line community had family members from Cuba and another was originally from Russia.

    Makes you wonder about those who say they don't need to worry....cause they may be under review also due to their relationships on social media venues etc.

    Parent

    And I've actually worried that my (none / 0) (#80)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:08:54 PM EST
    purchase last year of a pressure canner has me on someone's list, too.

    Thank goodness I have proof of it being used as intended - the sealed jars of pickles, relish, salsa on my pantry shelves!

    Parent

    My aunt (none / 0) (#83)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:29:26 PM EST
    thought it would be a good idea to buy stuff for her water softener in bulk (I think it's the same kind of stuff that can be used in making homemade explosives).  She found a place in England, I think, and purchased it, thinking nothing of it.  Another cousin who is a contractor at, ironically, the NSA, shook his head when she was telling him this. She got a worried look and asked, "Am I going to be on a list for this?".  He just knowingly suggested she not do that again.

    Parent
    There are other possibilities (none / 0) (#142)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:14:23 PM EST
    (1) He is a spy. Yes spies do keep looking over their shoulders, that is why they are spies. They are also protected by the government they are spying for. If he thought that he was going to get the protection of China or Russia, everything that you wrote should be revisited.

    (2) He got conned by Greenwald and/or Assange. Why is it impossible to imagine that he thought he would have a nice life in Hong Kong, working in investment banking and being protected by the Chinese Government? Why is it impossible to imagine Greenwald telling him "Listen man-your life has infinite possibilities-you have some hot stuff in your laptop-you have some hot skills-you have worked with bankers in Switzerland-Hong Kong is one of the hottest financial centers in the world and would like to replace NYC or London as the financial capital-the Chinese government will provide you protection from the US-you can make a lot of money, be a hero to the world and there may be movie deals also, etc, etc, etc.

    Crazy stuff? Well, the choice of countries that he is visiting after his flight from the USA are very interesting. He could have directly flown to Iceland or South America, instead of Hong Kong. Iceland is a little plane hop from London (where The Guardian's headquarters are) and both Greenwald and Assange have good connections with South American governments. The timing of his flight was also very interesting. It was timed such that it would provide the visiting Chinese President useful leverage while ending a visit to the US. The Chinese and the Russians have followed up with more action to form a joint axis against the USA in the last few weeks. It is within the realm of possibility that the Chinese and Russian governments did not expect a very strong reaction from the Obama government (since a section of the President's own party thinks that Snowden is a hero).

    These are ofcourse my opinions.

    Parent

    Yes, opinions plus conjecture (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:45:06 PM EST
    and not based on facts.

    1. There is no evidence that he is a "spy." None. I think maybe you don't know how spies operate, and what they do with secret material. Here's a hint: they usually try to sell it to another spy agency in another country. They don't publicize the material globally, through journalists writing for major news organizations, and then tell everyone their current location (Hong Kong).

    2. "Conned" by Assange and Greenwald. Hmm. I don't know about Assange, except that he certainly has his own agenda to serve, considering that he is holed up in the Ecuardorean Embassy (attempting to escape sexual assault charges, not espionage charges). But the assertion that Greenwald "conned" Snowden just makes me laugh. As if Greenwald has any need or reason to be "conning" anyone who holds information that the U.S. is operating a spy program against American citizens, in total secret, and without an ounce of accountability. So... pure conjecture on this one. Greenwald is a journalist who was approached by Snowden, and wants to publish an important story and protect his source -- which is something journalists used to be known for.

    I do agree that he should have just flown to Iceland straightaway if he was serious about seeking asylum there. On the other hand, Hong Kong is a much shorter flight from Hawaii, and who knows if he thought the U.S. may have had intelligence that he was on his way somewhere with thousands of documents, and would scramble jets or otherwise try to bring the plane to a stop? After all, the U.S. got a whole bunch of countries to agree to stopping the Ecuadorean president's plane, on the false belief that Snowden was on it.

    Parent
    Errata: Bolivian president's plane. (none / 0) (#144)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 07:48:11 PM EST
    Not Ecuadorean.

    Parent
    Seems from his statement, (none / 0) (#57)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    that Anne posted, he is asking for asylum in Russia.

    Accordingly, I ask for your assistance in requesting guarantees of safe passage from the relevant nations in securing my travel to Latin America, as well as requesting asylum in Russia until such time as these states accede to law and my legal travel is permitted. I will be submitting my request to Russia today, and hope it will be accepted favorably.



    Parent
    My comment (none / 0) (#64)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:25:46 AM EST
    was from what the Guardian reported he said, not from the written statement he provided afterward.

    Parent
    Regarding the whistle blown.... (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:15:19 AM EST
    should we consider the NSA a subsidiary of Google/MSN/Facebook/Twitter etc, or are the internet corporations subsidiaries of the NSA?  

    Parent
    Or are they... (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:17:29 AM EST
    all owned by The Carlyle Group?  These fascist structures are so damn confusing they'll make your head spin.

    Parent
    CNN reporting (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 09:37:48 AM EST
    Janet Napolitano to resign as head of DHS and become president of University of California system.

    From a financial perspective (none / 0) (#39)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:01:45 AM EST
    it's a great move as her salary will triple. She also takes charge of what is generally regarded as the top state university system in the nation.

    Parent
    I'm almost afraid to ask or find out (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:12:51 AM EST
    who is going to be nominated to take her place.

    Parent
    Which Republicans from the (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:24:49 AM EST
    Bush administration are available?

    Parent
    This (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:17:35 AM EST
    should make it even more intriguing

    Confirming a new DHS secretary could prove a particular challenge for the White House because of the role the department could play in implementing the new immigration reform package.

    Under the Senate bill passed late last month, DHS would be charged with implementing the eVerify program requiring employers to verify the status of workers, as well as new border security measures Republicans see as essential to the immigration effort.

    It's also possible that Senate Republicans could hold up a nomination in protest of the Obama Administration's decision last year to suspend the deportation of certain illegal immigrants who entered the country as children.



    Parent
    Here are a few names being tossed out (none / 0) (#89)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:09:54 PM EST
    In no particular order:

    Rand Beers (Acting DHS Deputy Secretary)
    Jane Holl Lute (Former DHS Deputy Secretary)
    Richard Danzig (Former Navy Secretary)
    W. Craig Fugate (Federal Emergency Management Agency Administrator)
    David Heyman (DHS Assistant Secretary for Policy)
    John Pistole (Head of the Transportation Security Administration)
    Thad Allen (Coast Guard Admiral-retired)


    Parent

    Some intial thoughts (none / 0) (#90)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:11:29 PM EST
    In the run-up to the 2012 election, National Journal named New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, Bill Bratton, and retired Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen as possible successors for Napolitano at Homeland Security if she were to step down. In the political world, former Senator Joe Lieberman is also a rumored possibility to take the job, in part because he could help make a possibly contentious Senate confirmation process a bit easier. NBC's Chuck Todd also mentioned former Rep. Jane Harman as a possible replacement.

    Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley could also be something of a dark-horse candidate. O'Malley was named by President Obama as a chairman of a national homeland security panel in February. The governor also has strong 2016 ambitions.

    Link

    Parent

    A Joe Lieberman nomination (none / 0) (#100)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:05:57 PM EST
    would be enough for me to get myself arrested protesting outside Obama's bedroom window, at 3:00 a.m.

    The only news I ever want to hear about Lieberman is that his family has had to schedule his funer--oh, wait, that's not nice.

    Parent

    Chuck Schumer recommendation (none / 0) (#92)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:35:53 PM EST
    I thought Chuck Todd was speculating in that beltway fashion when he said he had heard people suggest Ray Kelly should replace Janet Napolitano as Department of Homeland Security Secretary.

    But apparently, Chuck Schumer actually thinks it's a good idea.

    It's leader needs to be someone who knows law enforcement, understands anti-terrorism efforts, and is a top-notch administrator, and at the NYPD, Ray Kelly has proven that he excels in all three.  As a former head of the Customs and Border patrol, he has top-level federal management experience. There is no doubt Ray Kelly would be a great DHS Secretary, and I have urged the White House to very seriously consider his candidacy. emptywheel



    Parent
    Hold on to your junk y'all... (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:54:27 PM EST
    Stop-n-Frisk might be going nationwide!

    Going through the contents of our emails is one thing, the contents of our underwear might be the next sacrifice for the illusion of safety.

    Parent

    I see she has no experience... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:25:02 AM EST
    working in higher education, but her father was a dean.

    Lots of experience in bueracracy, and loads of government contacts...that must be how she scored the gig;)

    Parent

    I weep for my alma mater (none / 0) (#52)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:44:22 AM EST
    Just tired of these administration types rising to these academic levels. John Yoo is still at Berkeley, isn't he? Amazing how the least sentient among us, those with the least and most rudimentary and amateur understanding of human beings, continually rise to higher levels post government "service." One might think the fix were in, if everything weren't so phucking broken, that is.

    Parent
    Well now (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:54:52 AM EST
    Napolitano will be Yoo's boss.

    Parent
    Really glad I'm not a UC student anymore (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:03:37 PM EST
    Having the nation's head bureaucratic spying policewoman at the helm of the UC system is putting unpleasant thoughts in my head.

    Not only will she be John Yoo's boss, but she'll be the boss of all the true liberal intellectuals teaching history at Santa Cruz.

    And I think we can rightly expect a Republican to be the next DHS nominee.

    Parent

    Not that most of her (none / 0) (#97)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:48:37 PM EST
    UC president male predecessors were any great shakes themselves.  Lots of increased academic ties to corporate America, crowded classrooms and increasingly outdated facilities (except perhaps for sports at a few big campuses) as the poor and middle class got increasingly squeezed out by increasing fees, and the UCLA Med Ctr being allowed to be named after Ronald Reagan.  To name a few problems.

    Granted, it's not all the president's fault, and I note that when I attended UC 40 yrs ago, the state's population was about half what it is today, while (iirc) only one new UC campus has been built in that time to accommodate a growing state.

    Btw, good to hear there might be actual liberal intellectuals teaching history at UCSC, but who ever hears from them outside of their west coast ivory towers?

    Parent

    Who ever hears from most professors (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:00:04 PM EST
    outside of their academic domains? Is it the job of teachers to travel around the country doing media spots? I always thought it was their job to give me the best education for my money while I was attending the school.

    Parent
    I'm a firm believer (none / 0) (#102)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:25:15 PM EST
    in at least public university profs actively bringing their knowledge and expertise to the public, though that can mean merely playing an active part in the public affairs of their local community.  In fact, back in my day, I seem to recall that one of the tenure requirements listed for UC profs was to do just that -- not just teach and research and publish, but to bring same to the larger community.  (of course, as we know, UC traditionally has placed an absurdly heavy emphasis on research and publishing in obscure academic journals.)

    But preferably, I'd like to see more exposure for these people on the national scale, which can be done from the nearest local tv studio.  Granted, it's a two-way street, and the media have to want to hear from more of these people, other than, say, Robert Reich or the usual small group of (popular, safe, non-controversial, establishment-friendly) historians we've seen for decades on tv (Doris Kearns Goodwin, Michael Beschloss et al).

    For sure though, the first priority should be to be effective in the classroom.  But we should expect more.  And I note that we seem to be living in an era of the silence of the intellectuals, certainly compared to my youth.  Needn't be this way.

    Parent

    Interesting that some of those writing here (none / 0) (#108)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:47:42 PM EST
    view the public university system in California as failing when it has 5 Universities ranked among the top 10 public Universities in the nation. Not only is it not failing, it continually puts all other states to shame. No other state has more than 2 ranked in the top 20.

    Parent
    Failing in some respects, (none / 0) (#125)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:26:32 PM EST
    (including burdening their students and families with ever larger financial bills), merely declining (relative to my era, as I perceive and recall it) in other areas.  Major sports at the big schools, economics/B-School, Law and Medicine in the professional areas probably are greatly improved (or much better funded) compared to 40 yrs ago.

    But UC overall certainly doesn't seem quite the absolute Gold Standard of public universities it once was, and ratings can be misleading and subject to various interpretations.  Maybe UC legitimately still rates highly overall in various indicia compared to other states, or maybe it's just ahead of a mediocre and declining field.

    But this is just my 2c from my lofty distant perch decades removed from the academic scene.

    Parent

    I think UC Berkeley and UCLA are still (none / 0) (#128)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:50:41 PM EST
    rated among the best of the best, if I'm not mistaken. UC Davis has also become a great school. I'm proud to have gone to the UC when I did -- more than 30 years ago -- but I would probably enjoy UCSC a lot more now than then, because at least now you can work for a letter grade. I hated the pass/fail evaluation system of the old days... it didn't suit me at all. Honestly, Cabrillo College, which I attended before transferring to the UC, was, in some respects, the better school. The music department there is top-notch. Of course, the community colleges were also free back then.

    Parent
    Don't forget Petraess... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:52:48 AM EST
    teaching economics at CUNY...lol.

    Maybe there's a CIA black-op to inflitrate academia going down or something.  I'm gonna have to tune in to the Alex Jones Show to find out.  On second thought, nah, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one...it's all about the benjamins and connections.  When the University of Cali needs a favor from Uncle Sam, they got Janet to make the call. But it'll cost 'em.

    Parent

    Petraess gig at CUNY (none / 0) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:17:43 AM EST
    The course is called "Are We on the Threshold of the North American Decade.
    ...
    Here's the course description:

    In this interdisciplinary seminar, students will examine in depth and then synthesize the history and trends in diverse public policy topics with a view towards recommendations for America's leadership role in the emerging global economy.

    ...
    Incidentally, the course is limited to 16 students.  How many TAs has Petraeus been given to design, prep, administer, and do the grading for the course? link


    Parent
    The CUNY student/faculty ratio is 15:1 (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:51:37 PM EST
    Sour Grapes? (none / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:02:07 PM EST
    With no disrespect to Corey Robin's talent, teaching ability and success in getting students excited about learning, it sounds like he is suffering from a serious case of sour grapes here.

    If the business decision by CUNY board is poor they will suffer, more than likely they know what they are doing and want to be competitive. But, as far as the salary goes it is not top dollar for celebrity teachers. Krugman probably makes more, ok he is tenured..

    Parent

    Krugman is not only tenured, he (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:33:26 PM EST
    is a professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University. There is a difference between Princeton University and CUNY.

    Princeton University
    Princeton University is a private research university located in Princeton, New Jersey, United States. It is one of the eight universities of the Ivy League, and one of the nine Colonial Colleges founded before the American Revolution.

    ..the City University of New York (CUNY) is a public, nonsectarian American research college based in New York City.

    Example Student Loan Payments and Costs (CUNY)

    How much are estimated student loan payments for CUNY Brooklyn College? Below are the costs for an example student loan if you borrowed $20,704, our estimated average net price for a four year degree. Note that this calculation assumes you are part of the reported 59% of students at this school who receive financial aid and you are paying an average annual net price of $5,176 . Use our CUNY Brooklyn College student loan calculator below to change loan assumptions and recalculate.

        Monthly Payment: $238.26
        Amount Borrowed: $20,704.00
        Interest Rate: 6.8%
        Term: 10 years
        Number of Monthly Payments: 120
        Total Interest Cost: $7,887.48
        Total of All Payments: $28,591.48

    Princeton's policy on financial aid:

    Princeton guarantees ALL accepted students that the university will meet 100% of each student's demonstrated financial aid need. What's especially nice about Princeton's aid is that there are no loans in the aid package. The money received by Princeton students for financial aid is all "free" money or work-study money. Even the work-study program is great, because Princeton will enable students to earn $2345 per term working only 7.5 hours a week.



    Parent
    Please Clarifty (none / 0) (#87)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 12:53:16 PM EST
    I do not understand your point as they seem unrelated to why CUNY hiring Petraeus was bad in your opinion.  

    Are you saying that it is not OK for CUNY to pay professors a high salary but it is OK for Princeton to pay their professors a high salary, because Princeton gives financial aid and CUNY students have to borrow money to go there?

    FOr one, I do not follow that logic, and for you seem to be implying that no student at Princeton takes out student loans and that CUNY does not give any financial aid?

    Parent

    CUNY is a public university receiving (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:23:31 PM EST
    taxpayer funds.

    CUNY is not hiring Petraeus as a tenured professor but is paying him $150,000 to teach a boutique class for 16 students, one day a week and providing teachers assistances to do the majority of the work involved in the class.

    I think that a public university could better utilize the $150,000 to provide funds to their students so that more of them will not have to pay $238.26 for 10 years to receive a 4 year college education.

    It is my personal opinion that public universities should be using their funds to provide their students with the most financial benefit possible and not use their funds to pay out large dollar amounts to create "celebrity" teaching positions or pay exorbitant speaker fees. Whether they were paying Petraeus or Elizabeth Warren, makes no difference in my opinion.

    Evidently you do not see any difference between a cash rich elite private university and a public university. You also seem to think if CUNY made a bad decision, they will be hurt. From my viewpoint if they made a bad decision and the state decides that if they can afford high price "celebrity" teachers, they don't need as much public money, it will be students that are hurt more than the university.  

    Evidently YMMV.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#95)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:43:47 PM EST
    Good thing you are far away from CUNY, and have nothing to do with their hiring policies. I believe that your logic of hiring inexpensive teacher on would destroy the school, and provide little return on the students investment.

    Good thing that CUNY on average is a very appealing place to work as their pay scale is relatively high. They are able to attract star faculty and ambitious students which make for a vital learning environment.

    I am a NY Taxpayer and I support CUNY. I am also an alumnus of the city college system.

    Salary Overview
    There are 227 total faculty with a rank of Professor at CUNY City College. Among these Professors, 61 are women.

    The school pays a total of $27.6 Million to all faculty with a rank of Professor, which is drastically more than the average for all Professor Faculty Salaries. The average salary for men among all Professor-ranked faculty is $123,118. Meanwhile, the average salary for all female faculty with a rank of Professor is $117,224, which is far more than the average for all Professor Faculty Salaries.

    The difference between the male and female salary for this academic rank is $5,894, which is slightly more than the average for all Professor Faculty Salaries.

    link

    And as far as you apples and oranges argument quoting financial aid for Princeton and student loans for CUNY,  and them making some kind of comparison which, quite frankly, makes no sense, here is some information about CUNY financial aid:

    At CUNY--City College, 92.9 percent of full-time undergraduates receive some kind of need-based financial aid and the average need-based scholarship or grant award is $7,632.


    Parent
    There is a difference between (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:08:26 PM EST
    paying tenured professors a good salary and hiring a "celebrity" teacher for an elite class that only a few select students can attend. As you so kindly pointed out, the salary being paid exceeds the average salary that they pay their Professor-ranked faculty.  

    You agree with their decision and as a NY taxpayer I'm glad you are happy with their decision. Guess we will see if the decision comes up in state funding discussions at a future date.  

    The argument of hiring inexpensive teachers you are choosing to have has little relationship to my stated position. If you wish you can continue to fabricate alternative arguments but you will continue on your own.


    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#103)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:28:05 PM EST
    As I said, glad you are not running things here. I went to CUNY and worked with star faculty, most who were tenured. One semester they brought in a celebrity to teach a seminar, maybe 12 students.. it was amazing. Very inspiring..  so, as I said, I think it is great that they got Petraeus, and, imo the price is irrelevant. It is a quality issue, not a quantity issue. That is what makes for a great learning experience.

    Parent
    Apparently, the Petraeus hiring isn't (none / 0) (#104)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:30:41 PM EST
    going down too well in the CUNY community (bold is mine):

    More than half of CUNY students come from families with annual incomes below $30,000 and three-quarters of CUNY students are people of color. They depend on CUNY, but the university is struggling to serve them. Years of public disinvestment have led to tuition hikes (most recently, $1,500 over 5 years), full-time faculty shortages, and overdependence on and exploitation of adjunct faculty. Adjuncts at CUNY earn about $3,000 per class--one fiftieth of what Petraeus will receive. They have no job security, lesser benefits than their full-time colleagues and no team of CUNY-funded graduate students at their disposal, as Petraeus will have.

    Many faculty and staff see the Petraeus appointment as an example of the Chancellor's skewed priorities. "This appointment moves CUNY in the wrong direction and sends the wrong message about what is needed," said Steve London, first vice president of the Professional Staff Congress. "We need smaller classes, more financial aid for students, more fulltime faculty and better learning conditions for all our students."

    CUNY claims that they will pay Petraeus by raising private funds and funneling them through the CUNY Research Foundation, an organization that administers grants that is closely associated with CUNY administration.

    On the same day that news broke of CUNY's plans to pay Petraeus $150,000 via the CUNY Research Foundation, employees represented by the PSC were on a one-day strike outside the Foundation's central office. They have been without a contract for six months, and the Foundation management is offering below inflation salary increases, demanding excessive concessions for new hires and increasing heath care costs for employees.

    Over a hundred research Foundation workers and their supporters took part in the walk out, including Anthony Dixon, chair of the Professional Staff Congress chapter at the Research Foundation's central office.

    "That $150,000 for Petraeus is almost enough to cover a 3% salary increase for our entire bargaining unit," said Dixon.

    I don't think Petraeus is the answer to what ails CUNY; it's hard to make the argument that it doesn't just make things worse - with the real price being paid by students.

    Parent

    Difference in a nutsheell (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:55:29 PM EST
    "We need smaller classes, more financial aid for students, more fulltime faculty and better learning conditions for all our students."

    vs

    One elite class that only a few select students (12 - 16) can attend.


    Parent
    Fine (none / 0) (#113)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:04:13 PM EST
    Smaller classes, more financial aid, more fulltime faculty and better learning conditions are the forever needs of a University.

    Not sure what that has to do with hiring Petraeus, except that it hiring him may bring in more alumni $$$..  

    Parent

    Why haven't they been able to (none / 0) (#132)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:58:29 PM EST
    fund his salary through private donations? If hiring him will bring in more money from the alumni, I would think donations would have covered his salary by now  and be accompanied by an announcement that would take the heat off the university.

    BTW, something like half the teachers at CUNY are adjunct professors. Full time adjunct professors teaching a full course load at the City University of New York can expect to pull in around $25,000 per year according to a web search.

    According to your stated logic hiring inexpensive teachers could destroy the school, and provide little return on the students investment.

    Parent

    Not Yet (none / 0) (#136)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:15:24 PM EST
    But I am sure it will pay off.

    As for adjuncts, we are not talking about them. I was an adjunct for some years, and the pay is absurd. But that is our University system, the carrot of tenure leads adjuncts to keep coming.

    We are talking about the practice that many Universities have of hiring famous people, who are sought after in a competitive market. To say that CUNY does not deserve to participate in this practice, because most of its students are poor, or that it is tax payer funded is really mean.

    CUNY students should have the best. And, despite the cries of many who bemoan Petraeus' hiring, it is a really great school. Again super glad you are not running it.

    Parent

    Once again you are CHOOSING to (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:37:30 PM EST
    fabricate an argument that has little relationship to what I have said.

    I am not sure why you continue to do this. It is not like people can't read the various comments and clearly see that you distorting what has actually been written.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#140)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:58:37 PM EST
    I think that a public university could better utilize the $150,000 to provide funds to their students so that more of them will not have to pay $238.26 for 10 years to receive a 4 year college education.

    No one at Macaulay Honors College pays $238.25 for 10 years to receive a 4 year college education. I have no idea as to why you decided to discuss student loans at CUNY, particularly given that you chose to avoid discussing that 95% of CUNY students receive financial aid.

    It is my personal opinion that public universities should be using their funds to provide their students with the most financial benefit possible and not use their funds to pay out large dollar amounts to create "celebrity" teaching positions or pay exorbitant speaker fees. Whether they were paying Petraeus or Elizabeth Warren, makes no difference in my opinion.

    I understand that this is your personal opinion, and to me it makes you sound like a bean counter who would make decisions based on the lowest common denominator. I am glad that you are not involved with making any decisions for CUNY.

    Evidently you do not see any difference between a cash rich elite private university and a public university.

    You have that right. Public University's should have the same benefits that Private Universities do. For me this is an argument for hiring Petraeus, et al.

    "We need smaller classes, more financial aid for students, more fulltime faculty and better learning conditions for all our students."

    Could not agree more. And again another argument for hiring Petraeus.  He is teaching a small class, yay!  His students are all on 100% financial aid, and it appears to me that Macaulay Honors College has excellent learning conditions.

    One elite class that only a few select students (12 - 16) can attend.

    As coral gables pointed out the student teacher ratio at CUNY 15:1. So this class is average.

    ok... getting bored. I went to CUNY and SUNY both had small classes, excellent faculty at a high payscale, and were inexpensive. I do not see a problem, save that CUNY should hire more rock stars.


    Parent

    Some facts (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 03:19:47 AM EST
    CUNY has 480,000 students. Macaulay Honors students do not make up even .01% of the student body.

    Since no donor has come forth to pay Petreaus' salary, his salary will come out of the general funds. The 16 students will be hand selected from the Macaulay Honors students who as you have stated pay no tuition. They will not be paying Petreaus. Students who do pay tuition and/or staff members (lower increases) will be funding his salary.

    The $238.26 monthly loan payment for 10 years to receive a 4 year college education is from CUNY site for "How much are estimated student loan payments for CUNY Brooklyn College?" Also please refer to the fact that this calculation assumes you are part of the reported 59% of students at this school who receive financial aid and you are paying an average annual net price of $5,176.

    While I may sound like a bean counter to you, I seem to have quite a bit of company counting those beans?

    Other people who pay taxes in NY do not have the same elitist attitude that you seem to have.

    A New Yorker from this thread:

    The core principle of CUNY is to provide a quality low-cost education...I can't figure out in what universe that principle jives with paying Petreaus 150 large to teach one measly course to 16 students.

    Quotes from other New Yorkers:

    Supporters of the Petraeus hire also argue that the size of a salary should be left to the market, suggesting that nobody would think twice if Harvard or NYU lured a similar talent. If this were a private school, perhaps they'd be right -- though some trustees might still be justified asking for a rigorous cost-benefit analysis.

    But CUNY doesn't need celebrity academics for their own sake. It needs outstanding professors who can contribute great research and top-tier teaching to the overall good of the university.
    ...
    ...Celebrity hires like Petraeus may be fun at administration cocktail parties, they don't fit with the mission of a public university.

    General Petraeus' salary of $150,000 could sponsor full tuition for 26 students. Similarly, $150,000 could fund needed books and supplies, estimated at $1,248 per year per student, for 120 students.
    ...
    To spend $150,000 for an instructor who will teach just one class once per week that will reach just 15-20 students seems to be a misallocation of vital educational resources.

    "It is obscene for a university that operates on a bare-bones budget to pay anyone $150,000 for a single course per semester. Every dollar raised at CUNY, whether from public or private sources, should go to providing broad access to a quality college education," said Barbara Bowen, president of the Professional Staff Congress/CUNY (AFT #2334).

    Many faculty and staff see the Petraeus appointment as an example of the Chancellor's skewed priorities. "This appointment moves CUNY in the wrong direction and sends the wrong message about what is needed," said Steve London, first vice president of the Professional Staff Congress. "We need smaller classes, more financial aid for students, more fulltime faculty and better learning conditions for all our students."

    Over a hundred research Foundation workers and their supporters took part in the walk out, including Anthony Dixon, chair of the Professional Staff Congress chapter at the Research Foundation's central office.

    "That $150,000 for Petraeus is almost enough to cover a 3% salary increase for our entire bargaining unit," said Dixon.

    As to your claim that CUNY and SUNY has an excellent faculty at a high payscale, the facts do not substantiate your claim that the majority of the faculty enjoys a high payscale.

    More than one-half of all courses in CUNY and seventy percent of courses in SUNY community colleges are taught by adjunct faculty.

    A first-time adjunct professor teaching a full course load at the City University of New York can expect to pull in around $25,000 per year.

    While the faculty may well be excellent, an annual salary of $25,000 for 50% of the faculty for CUNY and 70% of SUNY would not be considered a high payscale by any rational person.

    Personally I would much rather come down on the side of the bean counters who champion the best use of funds for all of the students and employees of CUNY, than come down on the side of an elitist who would prefer to spend $150,000, plus the salary of the TAs assigned to do the majority of the work, and an undisclosed amount for travel expenses for a "Celebrity" hire to teach one course to 16 students.  

    Parent

    Mob Rule? (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 10:51:46 AM EST
    And when it is a mob of bean counters, watch out!

    By your logic, Macaulay should be shut down, and its high end campus right in the heart of Manhattan should be sold. You can probably build 5 campuses in East NY, South Bronx, Bed-Stuy, Jamaica, et al. It is crazy from a bean counting perspective to have a small elite college in the CUNY system that serves only .01% of the CUNY student body, yet uses a disproportionate amount of taxpayer money. The best and brightest students in the Macaulay Honors College and others who have the brains and ambition should go to Harvard and Princeton and get off the city dole.

    As I said, good thing you are people like you are not running CUNY. You would turn NYC into Detroit in no time.

    Parent

    Since you seem determined to make things (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 11:36:43 AM EST
    and intentionally distort my position let me restate it.

    By my logic there should be more full tuition scholarships and better paid staff and less celebrity hires to teach a few students at the expense of many.

    Left to your logic of spending large dollars of general funds to pay celebrity teachers to teach one class, one day a week to 12 - 16 to hand picked students rather than pay the current staff a living wage ($25,000 does not a living wage make), reduce rather than raise tuition or expand scholarships, CUNY would be reduced to being an elite college serving only those who qualify for a full merit scholarship. Of course, even that would require that CUNY has the funding necessary to keep its doors open.

    You don't have to worry about my opinion but you may need to worry about the people up in the state capital who decide how much funding CUNY needs from the state coffers. Seems that a few of them are unhappy with paying a huge salary for 3 hours a week of work. They may decide that if CUNY has enough money to pay celebrities for boutique classes that the college can get by with less state funds.

    You also may need to worry about whether or not the college will be able to retain a staff of excellent adjunct professors who do the lion share of the teaching at CUNY and SUNY. They currently seem extremely unhappy about having the college cry poor when discussing their salaries when at the same time the administration thinks nothing of dropping over $150,000 to pay one person for 3 hours of work.

    You may also need to worry that some of the alumni might prefer to have their money used to provide benefits to a great number of students rather than be spent to pay a celebrity salary. They may not like seeing strikes by staff members because the Foundation management is offering below inflation salary increases, demanding excessive concessions for new hires and increasing heath care costs for employees. It is just possible that some may find a celebrity salary a waste of their money and they may be less inclined to donate to the college.  

    I have a great idea, as a CUNY alumni why don't you fund Petreaus' salary, his travel expenses and the salaries of the TAs assigned to his class. This could take the subject off the table and possibly prevent it from being used to reduce their allocation of funds from the state.

    Better yet, why don't you establish an annual endowment to fund celebrity teachers. You could call it something catchy like "The Squeaky Celebrity Fund to Teach the Fewest Number of Students at the Greatest Cost."

    Parent

    State Beancounters (none / 0) (#152)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 12:47:23 PM EST
    And those who support them, would argue to dismantle the outrageous elitist Macaulay and sell the property off because the college is draining a vastly disproportionate amount of money from the CUNY system, for a very small percentage of students.

    Macaulay Honors College is housed in an elegant, renovated brownstone located in the Upper West Side, near Central Park and the Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts.

    In addition to free tuition, Macaulay students receive a $7,500 Opportunities Fund "to pursue global learning, internships, and other service and learning opportunities"; a MacBook Pro laptop; a "Cultural Passport" that permits free or discounted admission to arts, cultural, and educational institutions across the city; and specialized advising through the Macaulay Advising Program (MAP).


    link

    Between the free tuition, stipend, and free laptop the college spends over $9,720,000 per year on their students. That is approximately $18,000 per student annually (540 total). Not to mention the 8:1 teacher student ratio... And on top of that CUNY spends on average $16,000 per student excluding scholarships and grants..So Macaulay spends a whopping $36,000 per student at Macaulay, more than double the average other CUNY student get. And I am sure that number is much higher as Macaulay has half the average teacher student ratio.

    I am certain that If these numbers got out, along with the $150K Petraeus is getting there would be massive outrage and calls to shut down Macaulay. The populist idea that elitism does not belong in Public education because quantity is of greater value to society than quality is bogus. Your logic carried out to is fullest would destroy NYC as we know it.

    Parent

    You just can't help yourself, can you? (none / 0) (#153)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 01:59:28 PM EST
    You have this need to make things up so that you can have the argument that you want to have.

    Your logic carried out to its fullest would destroy CUNY as you know it by killing off its funding source (state beancounters can deny funds) and by driving away staff members due to inadequate pay. Personally I don't understand why you support the Foundation management in offering below inflation salary increases, demanding excessive concessions for new hires and increasing heath care costs for employees so that it can pay one person an exorbitant salary for 3 hours of work. Nor do I understand why you think it is more important to hire one celebrity than to use the funds to expand the number of students who receive full tuition scholarships.

    Still I can't wait to read the announcement that Petreaus' salary is being paid by "The Squeaky Celebrity Fund to Teach the Fewest Number of Students at the Greatest Cost."  

    Parent

    Look In the Mirror (none / 0) (#154)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 02:40:22 PM EST
    It is you who continues to make the dishonest argument that hiring Petraeus takes away from adjunct salaries, or whatever you are arguing would be solved by not hiring Petraeus. I am all for adjuncts being given full time status ASAP, and increasing their pay, but that is a nationwide problem, and not one that is remotely related to Petraeus. Apples and Oranges, imo

    You may as well be arguing that cutting the chancellor's salary, would end the pittance adjuncts make. Why not, that is also a populist idea? In case you are really interested in anything other than making political hay about a political figure you do not like, or whatever it is you are doing here, (I do not remember you ever being concerned about CUNY before in at TL), here is a good, brief history of CUNY, as relates to the issues of elitism, mission of CUNY and its success.

    the final quote in the Economist article is by the guy that hired Petraeus:

    "Elitism", Mr Goldstein contends, "is not a dirty word."

    I maintain that the students at Macaulay are lucky to have the chance to be on equal footing with the students at prestigious ivy league schools. Hiring Petraeus is a great for the students, and shows that CUNY vision is right on target, imo.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#106)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:39:06 PM EST
    Not popular, does not make it a bad decision.

    I believe that the students will benefit, and it comes as no surprise that many are using this to support their own agendas.

    With the publicity, I expect that CUNY will wind up waaaaay ahead financially than where they would be if they did not hire Petraeus.

    Parent

    Well... 16 of them anyway (none / 0) (#107)
    by sj on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:47:07 PM EST
    I believe that the students will benefit


    Parent
    Mypic VIew, IMO (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 02:55:38 PM EST
    But suit yourself.

    A good part of alumni giving is tied to quality of education which engenders loyalty. And some think that a quality education, particularly being inspired, can lead to being financially successful after University.

    Parent

    Can I ask what you find inspiring... (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:02:50 PM EST
    about Petreaus or the hiring of?

    I get what you're saying...prestige brings the students.  But I think if prestige is what a student is looking for, they're not giving CUNY a chance anyway.  CUNY's customer base is students who want a top flight education at an affordable price...f8ck prestige, that's Ivy League bullsh*t.

    There may be a celebrity prof to justify that kinda salary...but I don't think Petreaus is it, not even close.  Now maybe if they got Bruce Springsteen to teach an American music course, that might be worth it;)

    Parent

    Alumni $$? (none / 0) (#114)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:06:35 PM EST
    And he may be a great teacher. I think it is worth a shot.

    Parent
    We'll see... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:11:26 PM EST
    CUNY alums don't strike me as the type to go ga-ga over a generals stars...they shoulda made Springsteen the godfather offer!

    Parent
    The last I heard CUNY (none / 0) (#126)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:31:09 PM EST
    had not garnered the donations necessary to pay the $150,000 and it would have to come out of general funds.

    Matthew Goldstein wrote that he hoped to supplement Petraeus' salary with a private donation. But it does not appear that such a donation was actually secured, which means that Petraeus' compensation will come out of CUNY's general budget.


    Parent
    Investment (none / 0) (#129)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:50:48 PM EST
    Oh, and btw CUNY has one upped Princeton as per your above quote about the generosity of their scholarships:

    Selected for their top high school records and leadership potential, each Macaulay student is awarded a full-tuition merit scholarship, giving them the freedom to pursue their academic goals without financial burdens
    .

    I guess that is excessive as well? Not fair to all the CUNY students who have to pay something, even though 95% of CUNY sturends are getting some kind of financial aid.  

    Macaulay Honors College is elitist.  Oh my!!  

    Parent

    What makes you think this... (none / 0) (#135)
    by sj on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:12:09 PM EST
    ... is even remotely similar? As near as I can tell, the only similarity is that the reporting uses the same currency units.

    The Petraeus salary benefits one person directly: Petraeus. And up to 16 people indirectly: the students who take a single class.

    And then you compare that to students who are the direct beneficiary of a full-tuition merit scholarship. Do you really not see how those two things are not in any way a comparable use of funds?

    Parent

    Hey, the Macaulay full tuition (none / 0) (#137)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:24:24 PM EST
    merit scholarship is great. I'm all for full tuition scholarships. To the best of my knowledge most universities offer some full tuition merit scholarships to attract talented students.

    In fact, here is a link to pages of  

    Full Tuition Academic Scholarships
    Search for scholarships

    This page lists full tuition academic scholarships, such as trustee scholarships and presidential scholarships. These scholarships are often awarded by colleges as a way to attract talented students.

    The scholarships listed on this page satisfy the following criteria:

        They cover at least full tuition and fees.
        They are based on academic merit.
        They are college-controlled (i.e., not a private sector scholarship or state program).



    Parent
    Lets just not automatically assume (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:06:47 PM EST
    celebrity means quality.

    More bucks yes, quality not necessarily.

    Parent

    Quality (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:11:22 PM EST
    Wether you like the guy or not, we are not talking about someone who has extraordinary experience, and has been a role model for many. To write him off as just a celebrity puff hire, is not reasonable, imo.

    Parent
    Correction (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:12:55 PM EST
    We are talking about someone who has extraordinary experience

    Parent
    experience is overrated (none / 0) (#122)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:22:31 PM EST
    I think Oscar Wilde said that.

    Many of history's most notorious sobs had lives and experiences worthy of Sinbad the Sailor. It's what you create out of your experience that matters.

    Parent

    Wouldn't paying your faculty and (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:18:48 PM EST
    staff better, giving them better benefits packages, also attract high-quality educators and thereby improve the quality of the education, and the ultimate value to the student?

    Maybe they will come up with a new slogan: CUNY: inspiring students, 16 at a time!

    Parent

    Classic lowbrow American marketing.. (none / 0) (#123)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:25:42 PM EST
    suck the folks in with glitz and wet tee shirts..

    Parent
    Keep an eye on that (none / 0) (#119)
    by sj on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:11:37 PM EST
    Maybe there is something to what you say, so keep an eye on it:
    A good part of alumni giving is tied to quality of education which engenders loyalty.
    And let us know what uptick there is in alumni donations.

    Parent
    BTW according to their web site (none / 0) (#116)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:08:53 PM EST
    All = 480,000

    Select few = 12 - 16

    One highly paid "celebrity" guest teacher vs hundreds of disgruntled employees that keep the rest of the university running for 480,000 students. Maybe not the best atmosphere for higher learning.

    Parent

    Well, there IS (none / 0) (#124)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:26:23 PM EST
    this, according to CUNY's website:

    Against a national backdrop of steadily rising college costs and soaring student-loan debt, The City University of New York offers the best value in U.S. higher education today - high-quality academics plus a "safety net" of remarkably affordable tuition, tax credits and financial aid that make CUNY students much less likely to borrow for their education, according to a new report.

    Nearly six out of 10 full-time undergraduates attend CUNY colleges tuition-free due to full coverage by need-based federal Pell Grants and New York State TAP awards. More than $1 billion in financial aid - including government grants, CUNY aid and scholarships - benefits CUNY students for the 2012-13 academic year. The American Opportunity Tax Credit, a rebate of up to $2,500 that can defray education expenses for many middle-class families, is available to further reduce the cost of CUNY tuition, which is among the lowest in the land compared with public and private institutions.

    New data compiled by CUNY, The College Board and other sources underscore CUNY's value in the higher-education marketplace. CUNY's tuition and fees, averaging $5,818 at its four-year colleges in fall 2012, contrasts sharply with the $29,056 national average for private, non-profit four-year colleges and universities, the $15,172 average at for-profit institutions, and the $8,655 average tuition and fees at public, four-year institutions, according to The College Board.

    Wide availability of federal and state financial aid keeps it affordable - with full or partial tuition coverage -for the low-income students who comprise a significant percentage of CUNY's student enrollment. In 2012-13, nearly 241,000 CUNY students will receive $810 million in federal and state education aid. Scholarships are also available: Since 2000, the University's Invest in CUNY campaign has raised more than $700 million from private donors to fund scholarships throughout CUNY's 24 institutions based on merit, need, specialized interests and other factors.

    CUNY students save more by borrowing less for their education. In 2010, only 15 percent of CUNY undergraduates held federal education loans, compared with much higher borrowing rates at other public institutions, private colleges and for- profit schools, according to data compiled by the University.

    Also, as part of their mission:

    The University is an integrated system of senior and community colleges, graduate and professional schools, research centers,  institutes and consortia. From certificate courses to Ph.D. programs, CUNY offers postsecondary learning to students of all backgrounds. It provides the city with graduates trained for high-demand positions in the sciences, technology, mathematics, teaching, nursing and other fields. As CUNY has grown, the University also has strengthened its mission as a premier research institution, building an array of modern facilities and expanding the ranks of its world-class faculty.

    Taht being said, I think they could have brought Patraeus in for less than what they are paying him, considering he is also teaching in California (UCLA?  USC??)

    Parent

    Hiring inexpensive teachers for CUNY (none / 0) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:41:27 PM EST
    seems to be SOP for non elite courses at CUNY.

    More than one-half of all courses in CUNY and seventy percent of courses in SUNY community colleges are taught by adjunct faculty. Under these circumstances, many low-paid adjunct faculty cannot spend the needed time with students and the quality of education suffers. The remaining full-time faculty have to take on more institutional tasks because of the paucity of full-time faculty; e.g. student advisement, peer observations, curriculum planning and administration, and program administration. Because there are relatively few full-time faculty, they are under pressure to teach as much as possible while performing more administrative tasks. In fact, under the two-tier labor system, little time is available to the full-time faculty for research or professional development.

    A first-time adjunct professor teaching a full course load at the City University of New York can expect to pull in around $25,000 per year.

    Oh wait, where are all of the TAs to take over these duties for the full-time faculty?

    The remaining full-time faculty have to take on more institutional tasks because of the paucity of full-time faculty; e.g. student advisement, peer observations, curriculum planning and administration, and program administration.


    Parent
    Most colleges (none / 0) (#131)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 03:53:50 PM EST
    and universities have (or are trending that way) majority adjunct faculty, as opposed to full-time (and especially tenured) professors.

    Across the nation, colleges have undergone similar shifts in whom they employ to teach students. About 70 percent of the instructional faculty at all colleges is off the tenure track, whether as part-timers or full-timers, a proportion that has crept higher over the past decade.

    Change has occurred more rapidly on some campuses, particularly at regionally oriented public institutions and mid-tier private universities like Saint Joseph's.

    Community colleges have traditionally relied heavily on nontenure-track faculty, with 85 percent of their instructors in 2010 not eligible for tenure, according to the most recent federal data available. But the trend has been increasingly evident at four-year institutions, where nearly 64 percent of the instructional faculty isn't eligible for tenure.

    So, it doesn't look like CUNY and SUNY are all that unusual....

    Parent

    I get your point and don't disagree (none / 0) (#133)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:04:09 PM EST
    Yet, it was pointed out to me that hiring inexpensive teachers at CUNY would destroy the university. By any stretch of the imagination, an annual salary of $25,000 would put the teacher in a class that could be defined as inexpensive. Even in MO, $25,000 a year is not considered a decent salary.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:08:27 PM EST
    It seems CUNY is ALREADY hiring "inexpensive" teachers, and it hasn't been destroyed yet.

    And because Patraeus' salary is SO over the top (but I understand it - they wouldn't get him to come to CUNY for $2500), and because it's still too close to his downfall from scandal, I think that is part of the blowback.

    However, I do think there's an argument to be made about fundraising dollars and other prestigious names following big name hires like this.  Of course, none of that can be shown in this situation - at least until he teaches the 2 courses and then several fundraising cycles and academic calendars pass.

    Parent

    There is also another argument to be made (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 03:33:41 AM EST
    CUNY as a public university receives funding from the state . States in the current environment have been looking at ways to cut large dollar amounts from their budgets. This hire has gotten a lot of publicity and the attention of various politicians throughout the state. State legislators could well use this example as an excuse to take a big chunk out of the funding for higher education the next time around. I can hear it now:

    If CUNY is rich enough to pay $150,000 plus additional expense for 3 hours of work, they don't need state funding.

     

    Parent

    IMO (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 04:36:01 PM EST
    It's not a matter of salaries, it's realizing that Petraeus is a luxury that schools designed for affordable education can afford.

    By hiring Petraeus, either other teachers will be paid less or tuition will increase.  There has to be a sacrifice somewhere.  Which is true for any school, but in this case only 16 people will benefit and for a school whose purpose is to offer affordable educations, it doesn't make much sense.

    They could hire an actual professor who teaches far more than 16 students and still have some change left over.  Or they could give the current professors descent raises, drop the cost of tuition, or beef up their financial aid.  All of that would benefit far more than 16 people, and IMO be a far better investment.

    High priced famous guest lectures under the guise of teacher are not a bad thing, but not something schools who are in the business of offering affordable educations should be messing with.

    Parent

    I read that when Eliot Spitzer... (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:45:34 PM EST
    taught a course at CUNY he made 45 hundo for the semester.

    The core principle of CUNY is to provide a quality low-cost education...I can't figure out in what universe that principle jives with paying Petreaus 150 large to teach one measly course to 16 students.  

    Parent

    Here's the kink... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:58:34 PM EST
    I am in general agreement with the editorial writer...a bad hire in the opinion of this Queens College dropout.  

    Parent
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 65 (none / 0) (#50)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:42:00 AM EST
    The view of the world (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 11:10:32 AM EST
    from the Oval Office this morning.

    Woulda thought it was some (none / 0) (#93)
    by brodie on Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 01:40:13 PM EST
    wacko GOP congresscritter from FL or TX proposing it, but no, it was the supposedly smart and level-headed Dem Donna Edwards who is co-sponsoring the weird Apollo Lunar National Park bill.  

    What in the name of Mare Twanquillitas is going on here?

    Yes, yes, Nasa did send astronauts to the moon, on several occasions, a long time ago, back when this country did big things besides just war.  But this one is so peculiar, and obviously Nasa-driven, that I wonder whether there's some larger scheme afoot.  And it runs counter to the UN Space Treaty, even as, strangely or perhaps strategically, the bill seeks to invoke the UN later on in securing the Apollo 11 landing site.

    A real head scratcher.

    Meantime I think Nasa ought to be about the business of more important things, like a) finding a truly 21st C propulsion system for sending astronauts into deep space, b) studying ways of making long-term space travel less hazardous to humans, and c) finding a way to avert the Asteroid Apophis looming disaster (either 2029 or 2036).

    www.buckys.co.uk (none / 0) (#155)
    by ramish on Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 12:14:29 PM EST
    so, who's the next nominee ???

    www.buckys.co.uk