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Monday Open Thread

Busy work day. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    "Elders Back Security Pact (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:27:57 PM EST
    That Karzai Won't Sign."  NYT, Rod Nordland, November 25.  According to this reporting, Western diplomats warned that Karzai was playing a risky game of brinksmanship. "He's definitely  pushed too far, " one diplomat said speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the issue. "There's a general consensus that he's over-estimaed the importance to the Americans of the agreement and is thinking that they must have it at all costs. The American s internally are very clear: that it's not a vital strategic interest, and he doesn't get that."  

    Karzai's position  is making some US politicians to think, once again, about the "zero option." a complete American withdrawal.   For something that will cost $6-$8 billion each year for the next decade or more, it would seem that internally the commitment should be an unequivocal vital strategic interest.   If we get lucky, the Afghans, the Council of Elders notwithstanding, will have the good sense we do not have and will ask us to leave in 2014 --following the Iraqi model.

    "the Iraqi model" (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:20:47 AM EST
    Blow a trillion here, a trillion there, then retire to paint doggie pictures.

    Parent
    The Times (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by lentinel on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:49:58 PM EST
    has the following tilt: It portrays this as Karzai hesitating to sign the security agreement because he thinks that the US is bluffing -- and wants to stay in Afghanistan for the indefinite future whether he signs or not.

    I think Karzai's right.

    The folks behind Obama want us to stay.

    And stay we shall.

    Parent

    Google Street View Update (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ragebot on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:47:51 PM EST
    While I was cruising in the Dry Tortugas until the government shutdown forced me to leave I was anchored just off the North Coal Dock when google sent an employee to capture images at Ft. Jefferson to be incorporated in google street view.  My catamaran was the only boat anchored.  The fast boat from Key West and the sea plane from Key West are both in the street view images as well as some good views of the fort.  Not the best pix of my catamaran but I am a happy camper.

    Very cool (none / 0) (#15)
    by Zorba on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:15:28 PM EST
    Now you're famous, ragebot.  Well, at least your catamaran is.
    ;-)

    Parent
    Is This... (none / 0) (#35)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:46:30 AM EST
    ...the right catamaran ?

    Pretty cool stuff.

    Parent

    Beats the heck out of the unmowed lawn (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:54:42 AM EST
    that shows up on my street view.  


    Parent
    I have the sudden urge (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:12:14 PM EST
    to put a giant lead blanket over my crib.

    Parent
    For a while, mine happened to capture (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by ruffian on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:47:58 PM EST
    the month or so I had Oculus's brother's car parked in my driveway! That should fool any spies.

    Parent
    Lets just hope... (none / 0) (#51)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:14:16 PM EST
    Oc's brother never finds himself on the lam, lest the law show up at your place looking for him!

    Parent
    No kidding, Dog (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Zorba on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:06:05 PM EST
    They have even been up here on a country road on top of a mountain in Western Maryland.  Yes, our farm is there.  Although, I can tell from the vehicles pictured in our driveway that it was taken more than a year ago.  But, still.
    Geez.  I don't think I like this at all.


    Parent
    kdog you'd be surprised how (none / 0) (#142)
    by fishcamp on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:11:43 AM EST
    expensive lead is these days.  We use lots of weight to get hooks down deep due to the current.  Big 5 lb. weights have doubled in price the last 10 years.  Not sure of the actual price since I'm mostly a fly rodder.

    Parent
    That is surprising... (none / 0) (#146)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:48:41 AM EST
    you'd think lead could be had cheap these days as the plumbing supply industry has gone virtually lead free to comply with the Reduction of Lead in Drinking Water Act that takes full effect Jan. 2014.  

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#40)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:01:31 PM EST
    For me it's a tree badly in need of trimming. Totally obscures my house.

    Parent
    Yep, thats the one (none / 0) (#64)
    by ragebot on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:00:36 PM EST
    Little better pix when I was anchored off the Loggerhead Lighthouse

    S/V Blythe Spirit

    Parent

    Yeah, My Closest Brush With Google Fame... (none / 0) (#71)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:49:02 PM EST
    ...is my dad mowing the lawn in Wisconsin.

    You know I have to bust your balls, so where you down their teaching poor folks how to be self sufficient by spearing lobsters ?

    That boat is pretty bad ass, do you dive ?  We went diving in the Keys last year, gotta say not real impressed.   It was in Key Largo and the sea was angry the entire time, which made the water silty and one day it was so bad, they cancelled the dive.

    Plus it's pretty obvious, that man is having an effect on the sub-surface wildlife in Florida, big time.  The good new is we moved on to Key West and although we didn't dive, the nightlife more than made up for the lack of underwater life.

    Do you ever take you boat to the Caribbean ?

    Parent

    Spearing lobsters is a no no (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ragebot on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:38:41 PM EST
    When you spear a lobster you crack the shell and the goo inside gets all over the place.  The approved method to harvest lobster is with a net and a tickle stick.

    Diving in the keys is probably best in the summer.  In the winter cold fronts passing through the keys usually have strong winds that kick up the waves.  But if you pick your weather window diving in the winter can be rewarding.  Rule of thumb is the most dangerous thing on a boat is a calendar.  If you have time to wait for the right weather you are much safer.

    Not sure when you were in Key West but the road construction there is so bad I avoid going there if at all possible.

    While the bridges end at Key West the Keys extend another seventy miles.  I always stop at Boca Grande to fish and dive.  Twelve miles across the Boca Grande Channel lie the Marquesas, the only atoll in North America.  I also stop there.  The barracuda spawn there in January and you can often see hundreds of six foot or larger barracuda inside the islands forming the atoll.  My opinion is that the Cosgrove shoal/reef off the Marquesas is the best soft coral diving I have ever seen.

    Forty miles past the Marquesas lie the Dry Tortugas.  Fort Jefferson on Bush key houses the prison where Dr. Mudd was jailed after he was found guilty of setting John Wilkes Booth's leg after the assignation.  While most of my diving is done using a Hookamax (5hp Honda motor driving an oilless compressor with a Y valve, two first stage regulators, two 100 feet of hoses, and two second stage regulators) it is possible to dive lots of places in the Dry Tortugas with just a mask, fins, and snorkel.  Here is a pix of me headed to shore there.  Notice how calm the water is, makes for good diving.

    Dry Tortugas

    My experience has been that while diving in the Keys is good maybe five to ten days a month in the Bahamas it is good maybe twenty to twenty five days a month.

    Parent

    Sounds like technical (none / 0) (#126)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:49:34 AM EST
    diving and not standard recreational scuba....Are you doing commercial work, looking for treasure (not being snarky here)...

    What kind of air/mix if any do you use?

    I hate the lobster boats.  The lobsters actually scream in a muffled way....

    Parent

    Not technical (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by ragebot on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:01:21 AM EST
    Back in the day I would dive with rescue divers who went into the underwater spring fed caves to bring out the bodies.  Am a certified cavern and cave diver and search and rescue.  FSU academic diving has some great folks and if anyone is interested in CCR Greg Stanton runs a great course.

    The Hookamax is a good quality hookah.  While I like conventional SCUBA diving my boat is only 42 feet and storing tanks simply takes up too much room.  The Hookamax compressor runs into a tank and when it reaches pressure the compressor shuts off saving lots of gas that runs the Honda motor.  Most other hookah systems simply pump the compressed air into the first stage regulator and the excess is vented wasting gas.

    When I am cruising I estimate a five gallon jerry can of gas is equal in diving time to perhaps 50-75 tanks of air.  Most of my diving is limited to 30 feet or less and while I do harvest lobster and spear fish at times probably 90% of my diving is for underwater photography.  Here is a link to the

    Hookamax

    Parent

    Cavern and cave (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:42:00 AM EST
    diving--more power to ya'.   Not for me.  Wreck diving is at times unnerving enough.

    Parent
    The visibility in Key West (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:11:44 PM EST
    and South Florida is only about 15 feet.  Not sure why that is.

    One of the premier dive destinations out that way is the Caymans.  The visibility is 100 ft or more.   Cozumel has 100 ft plus visibility and a wonderful reef system. Discovered by Jacques himself.

    Parent

    Since the water is so shallow (5.00 / 0) (#143)
    by fishcamp on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:17:24 AM EST
    for miles offshore in the Keys even slight winds churn up the bottom sand to make visibility poor.  Places like the wall in the Caymans offer fantastic diving due to the deep water with little sand.

    Parent
    Every day is different (none / 0) (#101)
    by ragebot on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:37:47 PM EST
    As I posted there is good viz maybe ten days a month in the Keys.  Less than one day a month the viz is spectacular.  The radio stations in the Keys broadcast diving reports several times a day.  Sometimes the broadcasted viz is 150 feet, once it was 200 feet.  It is common for it to be 50-80 feet on the reefs.

    It is usually better in the islands.  What makes the islands different is that it is better more days out of the month.

    That being said the best visibility I have ever seen is at Wakulla Springs.  

    Parent

    I showed my mother the ... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:45:39 PM EST
    ... Google street view of her house, and she remarked that she needed to have the front wall and garage door repainted.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#93)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:58:20 PM EST
    It's funny how that works. When my brother took a picture of his house to show us the new paint job he noticed that the flowerbed fence sagged a little. He drives up next to it nearly every day and never noticed.

    Parent
    GOP comes up with a great idea (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:57:36 PM EST
    Rand Paul is going to Detroit to do African American outreach for the GOP.

    Rand Paul, who has publicly told America that he does not support the part of the Civil Rights Act that forbids businesses from doing things like preventing African Americans from entering their premises, will be in Detroit on December 6th to open the Republican African American Engagement Office.

    A Kentucky boy who is o.k. with a person being kicked out of lunch counters because of their color seems like a perfect match for AA outreach in Detroit.

    Oh boy, this is going to end badly (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:46:22 PM EST
    Like MSNBC giving Alec Baldwin a talk show

    Parent
    Yes, and Rand (none / 0) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 03:47:21 PM EST
    has a really good record on staff hiring.

    Parent
    Baa waa waa (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:30:50 PM EST
    Honestly the onion could not write better story lines than the GOP writes for itself.

    Parent
    You really should (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:30:31 AM EST
    Rand Paul was given Three Pinocchios on (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:27:53 PM EST
    Rand Paul's rewriting of his own remarks on the Civil Rights Act

    We were tempted to give this Four Pinocchios but some of his language at Howard appears to be a product of fuzzy thinking. Still, Paul does earn Three Pinocchios for trying to recast and essentially erase what he said in 2010. It would be better to own up to his mistake -- if he now thinks it was one -- rather than sugarcoat it.

    Paul is on record on more than one occasion saying that he didn't like the idea of the government telling private business owners who they need to serve.

    Parent

    Hmmmm, guess he didn't mean this (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:17:15 PM EST
    PAUL: You had to ask me the "but." I don't like the idea of telling private business owners -- I abhor racism. I think it's a bad business decision to exclude anybody from your restaurant -- but, at the same time, I do believe in private ownership. But I absolutely think there should be no discrimination in anything that gets any public funding, and that's most of what I think the Civil Rights Act was about in my mind.


    Parent
    One statement does not negate the other (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:33:12 PM EST
    He is of the opinion that there should be "no discrimination in anything that gets any public funding" and he doesn't think government should be in the business of telling private business owners who they need to serve.

     

    Parent

    And you are shocked that a (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:09:52 PM EST
    Libertarian would take that view??

    Of course he added:


    "PAUL: I would not go to that Woolworths, and I would stand up in my community and say that it is abhorrent,...."


    Parent
    and I would add (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:11:32 PM EST
    that it is well established that there's really no such thing as a totally private business.

    Parent
    The Opthamologist has a problem with optics. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    And his detractors have a problem with nuance.

    Parent
    Nuance away (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:52:06 AM EST
    but a true liberal is willing to listen and to not repeat partial information.

    Parent
    Jim, I am Not Letting this Go... (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:22:37 PM EST
    Jim, where you a member of the US military ?
    Yes or No.

    I don't want to read Naval Aviation BS, I want to know if you were in the military.

    Parent

    Scott (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:07:25 PM EST
    If I was in Naval Aviation for 10 years would I have been in the US military????

    Hope that concept isn't too hard for you.

    Parent

    One Would Think... (none / 0) (#147)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 09:10:02 AM EST
    ...but then again, one would also think if you ask a man a yes or no question, repeatedly, they would stop dodging the question and answer yes or no.

    Where you a member of the US Military ?

    Parent

    As shoephone notes here (none / 0) (#157)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:03:39 AM EST
    There will be and can be no straight answer to any questions about jim's "service" ... because, I suspect, the persona he has invented is about as real as a character in a bygone work of fiction.

    Every so often I respond to one of the more outlandish claims/retorts emanating from that cobbled-together persona.  Then, it occurs to me how foolish I am for wasting time on the script writer.  

    He has cast himself as someone who will never cede a point--no matter how big or trivial--and as one who must oppose the images on the cave.  In fact, he is jerking around anyone who would engage in any discussion with him (myself included.)  Ignore him.

    Parent

    Actually christinep (none / 0) (#164)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:41:40 AM EST
    I admitted to changing my position on the death penalty, beyond that my positions have not changed.

    As for straight answers, I  have given the same since 2003...

    I served 10 years in Naval Aviation.

    That you, Scott, shoe, jondee, yman and others want to make a big deal out of that, be my guest.

    You have a problem with this because you want to find something to personally attack me with and because when I point out that you haven't served, Scott appears to be an exception, you are somewhat embarrassed.

    In this case, as I noted, Yman used my service to attack me because I dared point out the failures of JFK. When I responded you and others piled on.

    A perfect example of a "progressive" response. You are so demanding of a 100% agreement on all matters you can't accept someone who is a social liberal disagreeing on any point.

    No problem. That's what you do but don't expect me to not respond.

    Parent

    One would think (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:28:23 AM EST
    that when a man has posted the same since 2003 the reader would be able to catch a clue.

    But please keep demonstrating your logical thinking abilities.

    Parent

    The Same Answer... (none / 0) (#166)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:57:42 AM EST
    ...is not the a straight answer.

    Where you a member of the US Military ?  It's two or three keystrokes.

    You believing we are making a big deal out of this is just like Rep Weiner thinking the press was making a big deal out of all the BS he originally refused to answer.

    Like you, his refusal was taken as an admission, and while no one wanted to call him a liar, it was painstakingly obvious that he was hiding something.  So Jim while I will not call you a liar, it's painstaking obvious that you are hiding something.

    You claim "I was in Naval Aviation for 10 years"
    But refuse to answer:


    Where you a member of the US Military ?


    Parent
    Yes Scott (1.00 / 1) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:28:09 PM EST
    you are calling me a liar.

    That's okay. It is what good Lefties do.

    And you do so because:

    a. You can't stand my disagreement over JFK

    or

    b. You don't know enough history to know I am correct

    or

    c. You just want to pile one

    or

    d. All of the above.

    Now do you know the difference between Rate and Rank?

    Parent

    The "clue"'s been caught (none / 0) (#189)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:18:56 PM EST
    Just not the "clue" you apparently intended.

    Parent
    I think it's clear, at this point, (none / 0) (#112)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:22:48 PM EST
    that you're never going to get a straight answer, Scott.

    Parent
    Meanwhile, I've got a couple of questions for Jim (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:31:49 PM EST
    Can you explain how posting a photoshopped picture of Obama as an African witchdoctor isn't racist? Just wondering, 'cause it's top post on the front page of your blog.

    And here's one more question:

    Do you think copying and pasting screenshots of Talk Left comment threads on the front page of your blog is ...legal?

    Just curious.

    Parent

    Uh, based on (1.00 / 2) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:48:25 AM EST
    the lies that Obama has told and the damage he has done to the health care of this country I find the picture very accurate.

    And depicting a black man as a black man is racist??

    Please, quit playing the race card. It is worn out and no longer works.

    Is it legal? Well, the subject was about me and I attributed the source.

    That's done on this blog, and others, every day.

    Just curious. Do you know the difference between Rate and Rank??

    Parent

    No, actually, it's not done on this blog every day (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:36:07 PM EST
    While the blog owner and some commenters may copy and paste a portion of a published piece, they can only post a small portion of it, so as not to run the risk of copyright infringement. They do not post screen shots of long portions of comment threads from other sources. You did. There's a difference.

    And you did not post a picture "depicting a black man as a black man." You posted a photoshopped picture that depicted a black man as an African witch doctor... which is blatantly racist. There's the difference.

    Nobody cares about rate and rank, Jimbo, other than the rate at which you dissemble and show rank dishonesty on the issue of your "service" in "Naval Aviation."

    As for those who are quite open about not doing military service, who cares? Since none of those people claimed to, without providing substantiation, there's no hypocrisy at play. You're the only one who keeps dragging out the dead horse of your so-called military service--ad nauseum--in a feeble attempt to show some sort of superiority, and you do it only by using vague terms with no substantiation whatsoever. That's the difference.

    Parent

    Well, dang it.. (none / 0) (#188)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:12:09 PM EST
    everybody knows Obama was really borned in Africa.. And the doctor part wuz just ole Jim makin' reference to the ACA..

    And besides, who doesn't see an African witchdoctor when they look at a black man?

    Parent

    Well, Jim sure doesn't. (none / 0) (#194)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:41:21 PM EST
    Because he knows that if he does, he'll have to answer to Pam Grier.

    Parent
    Of course not (none / 0) (#190)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:21:24 PM EST
    And depicting a black man as a black man is racist??

    But depicting a black POTUS as an African witchdoctor IS racist.

    If you can't see that, you've lived in the South too long.

    Parent

    The witchdoctor thing (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:33:59 PM EST
    was just Jim dog whistling to his loyal readers. Who in this case happen to be actual dogs.

    Parent
    And that's only because ... (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:47:46 PM EST
    ... he bribes them with dog biscuits beforehand.

    Parent
    Oops, almost forgot to provide the (none / 0) (#119)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:42:50 PM EST
    link.

    And, of course, question #1 also applies to your 9/11 post on Muslims. Racist? Not racist?

    Parent

    Link Please (none / 0) (#148)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 09:11:24 AM EST
    Bus ads (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Edger on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 03:12:23 PM EST
    That. Is. Awesome. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by sj on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:39:45 PM EST
    Also we find out today that (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:49:35 PM EST
    via Gawker that...
    According to a report in the Wall Street Journal, NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander offered to resign after Edward Snowden identified himself as the source of leaked classified documents.

    President Obama declined to accept Alexander's resignation...



    Parent
    I'm surprised Obama didn't show a little (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:11:26 AM EST
    support by naming Alexander Viceroy of the NSA.  I mean, he's doing such a great job.

    Parent
    "....Snowden identified himself....[?] " (none / 0) (#62)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:35:04 PM EST
    Doesn't make sense.

    Did you mean, "...Snowden identified him (Alexander?)

    Parent

    It's a direct quote from Gawker (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 02:50:55 PM EST
    The grammar is a bit awkward, but I read it as it is: "Edward Snowden identified himself as the source of leaked classified documents."

    Parent
    O.K. I think I got it. (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:32:40 PM EST
    Alexander is saying, "I did such a great job as Head of the NSA in guarding our country's Top Secrets that any mildly competent IT hobbyist could just waltz on into our impenetrable bastions of security and skip out with just about anything he/she wanted to. So, having accomplished the greatest goal a back scratching spook could hope for, I think it's time now for me to "spend more time with the family."

    Wadda ya think, Ed, pretty close?

    Parent

    Alexander's a pro. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:01:26 PM EST
    Lol.

    Parent
    Canceled Health Insurance Plans in California (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:54:08 AM EST
    Of course (none / 0) (#22)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:17:29 AM EST
    Thier plans didn't HAVE to be canceled for them to now shop for a cheaper plan (assuming they are equivalent).

    But this is a nice feel-good story.

    Parent

    Those noncompliant plans (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Peter G on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    were not "canceled" (in mid-contract, as implied).  They simply could not be re-offered in the same form, because they were so deficient in coverage as to be unlawful under the ACA. The "cancellation" meme is highly misleading.

    Parent
    Yes, I know (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:03:50 AM EST
    I have one of those plans that got canceled (and yes, it's in mid-plan). But the whole "junk plan" meme that gets tossed around (not that you said that) is also highly misleading.

    The only "deficiency" my plan has is that it doesn't offer maternity care. It has a high deductible, but even with the lower deducitbles being offered, it isn't a big difference, and other things will go up - my co-pays, for instance - and my netowrk of providers will get smaller.

    Parent

    The plans that were (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:22:22 AM EST
    cancelled for being non-compliant were not etched in stone.  Without the ACA, many plans were routinely cancelled or changed....

    Parent
    And with Obamacare (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:37:15 AM EST
    they have been scheduled and cancelled because of Obamacare.

    Funny though, I don't remember seeing any programs being cancelled because they didn't offer prenatal care for old men.

    Parent

    You do know that the Heritage Foundation (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:04:33 PM EST
    1990's plan had prenatal care included in its basic minimum requirement.

    This same plan that Dole and Republicans were pushing in the 90s would have required prenatal care coverage for old men.

    I could list all of the items that are currently included in health insurance coverage that do not apply to me - will probably never apply to me - yet my premium includes coverage for those medical conditions. That is why it is call insurance.

    Parent

    Uh, not being a Repub (2.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:20:06 PM EST
    or a Demo I have no problem saying...

    So????

    The HF is not Congress.

    And no Repub voted for it.

    Details....details.

    Parent

    Republicans designed it (none / 0) (#83)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:55:50 PM EST
    and Dole and the Republican Party had no problem promoting the idea in the 90s.

    Details are that the Republicans thought the basic minimum requirements of any health care plan should include prenatal care until Obama proposed it.  

    Parent

    Uh... the 90's.... (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:02:11 PM EST
    You mean like 20 years or so ago?????

    MO, that is a very weak argument and you know that and based on the polls coming out the American people know it.

    Why doesn't Obama man up, say Obamacare is a bust and propose a simple straight forward single payer system based on the Medicare model paid for with a federal sales tax that covers everyone. PERIOD.

    My guess?? He wants a wealth transfer based on Marxist ideals and that means some people pay while Obama's base consumes.

    Parent

    You mean like how ... (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 06:39:56 AM EST
    ... you and MrsPPJ "consume" through SS, Medicare, etc.?

    Heh.

    Parent

    Buddy Jim (none / 0) (#113)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:23:15 PM EST
    What you write is so 1980-ish. You must have taken a nap longer than Rip Van Winkle or not got out of Alabama since Reagan left office.

    This is what a large part of the "Obama base" or Clinton base or Democratic Party base looks like. Just go to Manhattan or Silicon Valley. They are paying for your consumption in Alabama and other Red States.

    Parent

    The 2012 county by county electoral map (none / 0) (#114)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:35:53 PM EST
    will show that most high income areas in the country form the Democratic Part base. These areas are paying for Jim's consumption in Alabama.
    link

    Parent
    Based on Marxist ideals.. (none / 0) (#152)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:31:19 AM EST
    lemme guess: he learned that tactic at the knee of Saul Alinsky; during that period when Obama was immersed in corrupt "Chicago politics" (just to squeeze in every Fox-wingnut radio talking point)

    You're about as original and eddifying as a fart after a baked bean dinner, Jim.

    Parent

    yeah... and? (none / 0) (#36)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:46:38 AM EST
    And millions have (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:50:35 AM EST
    lost their insurance and can't afford the replacement....

    Parent
    We have all kinds of (none / 0) (#27)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    t.v. commercials advertising insurance plans.

    Covered California has its own ads up too.

    Parent

    And yet (none / 0) (#65)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:04:28 PM EST
    In Colorado, troubles abound.


    Enrollment in the Affordable Care Act through Colorado's health insurance exchange is barely half the state's worst-case projection, prompting demands from exchange board members for better stewardship of public money.

    The shortfall could compromise the exchange's "ability to deliver on promises made to Colorado citizens" and threatens the funding stream for the exchange itself, according to board e-mails obtained by The Denver Post in an open records request.

    The exchange, meant for individuals and small groups buying insurance, had projected a lowest-level mid-November enrollment of 11,108, in a presentation to a board finance committee. The exchange announced Nov. 18 that it had signed up 6,001 Coloradans so far.

    The midlevel scenario for November was 20,186 members, and the highest projection 30,944 members.

    As federal startup grants taper off under Obamacare funding, the exchange is meant to pay for itself with per-member charges on the private insurance companies offering policies. It needs 136,300 enrollees in 2014 to raise $6.5 million of its $51.4 million expenses.



    Parent
    So, what's different in Colorado? (none / 0) (#68)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:38:41 PM EST
    California's doing great while Colorado sucks.

    What gives?

    Parent

    Healthcare ... sort of related (none / 0) (#77)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:11:17 PM EST
    I'm definitely planning to read Pope Francis apostolic exhortation entitle "Evangelii Gaudium."  Apparently, in that 84-page issuance, he writes and expands upon many of the things that he has been quoted as saying.  An excerpt appearing at the NYTimes and HuffPo today, among others, focuses on the pressing need to bring about more economic justice in terms of distribution so that the poor and less well-off are treated more selflessly by society ... and, in so doing, to ensure that all can experience healthcare, education, economic justice.

    The ACA does have a necessary redistributive component ... a move toward an equalizer via subsidies and broad inclusion at the core. A large move toward universality.

    Every pronouncement from this clear adherent of the modest lifestyle modeled by St. Francis has me spontaneously applauding.  Long live Pope Francis.

    Parent

    Seems you are creating a relationship (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:15:59 PM EST
    that does not exist.

    Pope Francis spoke against trickle down economics. He didn't say anything about trickle down insurance that when fully implemented will miss universality by over 30 million people and may or may not provide affordable health care.

    For all you know, Pope Francis might be a strong proponent of a real universal health care system which gives the poor the same level of care as the rich.  

    Parent

    True. (none / 0) (#87)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:22:37 PM EST
    The extent, the interpretation will be discussed, I'm sure.  That is why the document may well be worth a close read.  My quick take is that--at the very lease--the Pope has addressed the need of a level of redistribution to allow such essential matters as healthcare, education to be available to all.  As you suggest, the intent is broader than a narrow legislative reason to be sure.  But, for now, he is openly and fully addressing the reality of the need.

    Parent
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 199 (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Dadler on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:22:57 AM EST
    Is this a joke? (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Slado on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:06:54 PM EST
    Obamacare for the Holidays

    I thought the Julia Website was bad.

    This one's almost as bad as Healthcare.gov.

    Pope Frank... (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:01:50 PM EST
    continues to impress.  He tears unfettered capitalism a new arse in an apostolic exhortation that channels Jesus chasing the money-lenders from the temple.

    Give 'em hell your excellency!

    The pope needs to visit all the good (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:15:36 PM EST
    Christians in our government. You know the ones that shout their Christian beliefs from the rooftops at each and every opportunity and practice stealing from the poor to give to the rich.

    Parent
    The various protestant sects... (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:22:24 PM EST
    have an out with the pope, if not their lord and savior.

    Paul Ryan and the other Catholics in government, otoh, are f8cked;)

    Parent

    I'm glad that you noted (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:20:14 PM EST
    the Paul Ryan conundrum ... at least to me, it seems that the Congressman has made a name preaching one kind of economic model and distribution, while Pope Francis has urged a more just economic distribution.  It will be interesting to see how Mr. Ryan squares his stringent austerity approach with the heartfelt call for selflessness from the head of the Church.  

    Yea Pope Francis!

    Parent

    Wonder what the Pope would think (4.00 / 4) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:24:28 PM EST
    of the cuts to domestic programs that Obama has signed off on to date and the additional cuts scheduled in the coming year. Of course, many of those cuts were offset by more corporate welfare to the rich.

    Would also like his opinion on how the mortgage crisis was handled as well as chained CPI and the proposed cuts to Medicare.

    Parent

    Somehow (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by christinep on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:34:21 PM EST
    I don't think the Pope will get ensnared in the various legislative aspects and negotiation postures of American policy debates.  Nice try, tho:)  Suffice to say that Pope Francis is clearly sending a strong message--as he did with the suspension of one known as "Cardinal Bling"--that selfish aggrandizement, politically & societally, doesn't cut it. (And, in my parish anyway, the emphasis has changed.  From the thinly veiled political attack on Obamacare and related, we hear a concentration on how to help others.)

    Unabashedly, I believe that he is truly a wonder.  What cause for optimism.  How genuine!

    Parent

    I do wonder (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Zorba on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:41:55 PM EST
    if the College of Cardinals knew what they were getting when they elevated a Jesuit (the first one) to the Papacy.
    In any case, I like this Pope.
    Although, we have a few very right-wing Catholic friends who have been going bat-sh!t crazy over what they consider an extreme lefty Pope.  LOL!

    Parent
    Perhaps they believe ... (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:26:57 PM EST
    ... the Pope to be a communist. Know doubt they're probably right, given that long-haired hippie from the Gospels -- you know, the guy who bummed around Palestine for the better part of three years, and was always ready for a good time by constantly changing water into wine -- who once said, "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto me." I mean, what a subversive!

    ;-D

    Parent

    Disagree (4.25 / 4) (#115)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:39:05 PM EST
    What do you think he was doing when he talked about trickle down economics? How else would you describe legislation and policies that cut needed domestic programs while disbursing giveaways to corporations and the rich at every turn. The austerity agenda pursued by this administration very much fits that mold. It could, in fact, be described as closing down the trickle to the point that there is only a occasional drop.

    He is very much critiquing the various aspects of American policies. He is criticizing the actual policies being pursued by the U.S. with these comments:

    How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.


    Parent
    I am sure (none / 0) (#116)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:49:53 PM EST
    that Pope Francis does not limit his concern to just the poor and the marginalized in America but cares about the entire planet.

    I will not be surprised if he feels that even the poorest Americans are richer than 90% of the world population and should do more to feed the hungry and dispossessed in the world instead of complaining every day about imagined Medicare or SS cuts. What percentage of people in the world even get Medicare and SS benefits, anyways?

    The arguments cut many ways.

    Parent

    You are right the argument cuts both ways (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:42:53 PM EST
    As long as there are some 3rd world countries that rank lower than the U.S. you can always present the argument that there are people worse off. Then again we can look at how we rank in comparison to other developed countries and the direction that we are going are far as income inequality, health care, domestic services provided and retirement systems.

    Much of the Pope's comment had to do with income inequality so let's look at that.

    The countries with the highest income inequality are, by far, those of Latin America and the southern tip of Africa. ...
    ....
    The United States doesn't come out of this comparison looking great. It's ranked 44th out of 86 countries, well below every other developed society measured. It's one spot below Nigeria, which has some of the worst political corruption in the world and in 2012 saw nationwide protests over perceived income inequality. The United States' Palma ratio ranks it just beneath Nigeria but above Russia and Turkey -- all countries that have experienced heavy political unrest in recent year. link

    The U.S. ranks well below every other developed society measured. But hey, as long as we are just a spot beneath Nigeria which has some of the worst political corruption in the world we should stand tall because we are not ranked dead last.

    U.S. ranks far below other countries in health care. Ranks 46th in most efficient health care

    These Are The 36 Countries That Have Better Healthcare Systems Than The US

    World's Top 10 Retirement Systems That Beat America's

    U.S. slips 2 spots in Mercer global retirement rankings - Pensions .


    Parent

    The Pope is from Argentina (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:41:01 PM EST
    and Latin America as you have acknowledged has one of the most inequitable income distributions in the world. The Argentinian economy collapsed a few years ago. Retirement savings of people were completely wiped out, people did not even have safety nets like food stamps, etc.

    However, I do not think that the Pope was doing a country by country analysis or even focusing on a single country like America. Just as the modern economy is a global economy and not limited by national boundaries, the papacy is not limited by national boundaries. However, your thinking seems to be limited by national boundaries and your interpretation of the Pope's comments seem colored by your politics in some ways. For all we know, when the Pope was talking about economic inequality in a globalized economy he may have just been speaking out against predatory capitalism without regulations and concern for fairness and urging wealthier countries to share their wealth with poorer countries. He may not have been talking about technical minutiae of legislation relating to SS or Medicare in America.

    Parent

    I wondered (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:53:44 PM EST
    how such a pointed statement could be rationalized away. Thanks for showing us.

    I agree with you in part in that he thinks more globally than a single nation. His flock is global and he doesn't appear to lose sight for a moment of what he considers important.

    Having said that, I have to admit that I'm amazed that the inequities in this nation can be so easily rationalized away just by saying, in essence, "well, they're worse."

    We, as a nation, are very willing to take credit where we do good. We should also be willing to take our lumps where we fall short.

    Parent

    Yep the Pope is from Argentina (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:52:45 AM EST
    The income inequality in the U.S. is now worse than in Argentina.

    U.S. Income Inequality Worse Than Many Latin American Countries

    Argentina (wealthiest 20% earns 14.5 times more than the poorest 20%)

    The United States (wealthiest 20% earns 16 times more than the poorest 20%)

    Argentina ranks higher than the U.S. in health care systems.

    A direct quote from the Pope:

    Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.

    My comment also referenced the cuts to domestic programs that help the poor in our country. The caps imposed by the Budget Control Act of 2011 and the so called "fiscal cliff" deal are perfect examples of "where the powerful feed upon the powerless."

    Cuts to vital programs like emergency housing, emergency heating programs, domestic violence programs, child care and AIDS programs, Meals on Wheels, approximately 700,000 young children and mothers would lose nutrition assistance, and more than 25,000 teachers and teaching aides would lose their jobs, the elimination of 2,300 National Institutes of Health research grants; nearly 100,000 children losing Head Start services; and no more child care assistance for 80,000 kids. Not to mention 12,150 fewer patients with access to AIDS Drug Assistance Program benefits and 169,000 people who would not get access to substance-abuse treatment programs.

    Those cuts help feed the powerful through deals like this:

    Fiscal cliff deal includes at least $67.9 billion for special interests.

    Federal Estate Tax Exemption: $5M, indexed for inflation or $5.25M, up $130,000 from 2012. Annual indexing will increase this amount each year. Using an approximate 2.4% inflation rate, the exemption should increase by over $100,000 each year.

    Federal Gift Tax Exemption: $5M, indexed for inflation or $5.25M. For 2013, the exclusion is $14,000 per recipient and $28,000 per recipient for married couples, up from $13,000 and $27,000 respectively in 2012.

    Parent

    Income Inequality (3.00 / 3) (#131)
    by Politalkix on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:17:20 AM EST
    is a big problem in this country but the Pope is not a spokesperson for your politics however hard you try to convince people. You should probably ask the middle class in this country to consume less and focus on spiritual life as the Pope is urging people to do. That may take care of some of the inequalities as the rich won't be able to sell their products as much as they are doing now in a non-consumerist climate. In Uruguay (the top country in your list), the President is telling people that they do not need cars and asking more people to return to farming. Comparing economic inequalities in primarily agrarian economies to economies of technology oriented countries is misleading!

    This is not to say that I am not concerned about economic inequality in America. I am however against selective use of the Pope's words and articles to further your politics.

    Parent

    OK, I've gone back (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:05:58 PM EST
    as far as July and have been unable to find your thoughts about income inequality in America. Unless you mean Latin America? I've found criticism of Latin American leaders and their inattention to the poverty within their borders. Is that what you meant?

    Or, if not, how far back do you recommend I go to understand your position on income inequality in America?

    Parent

    sj, it's the same old metric: (4.25 / 4) (#176)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:36:09 PM EST
    "not as bad as."

    And it's used as a reason not to expect more from the president, and for why we "have to" or "have no other choice but to" vote for the Democrat, always, since he or she is never "as bad as" the Republican.

    A grade of "C" is "not as bad as" a "D" or an "F," but it's still mediocre, and why someone is happy to live in and be content with mediocrity is something I just don't understand.  And I sure don't understand applying the metric in defense of those who have the ability and the power to do better.

    What gets ignored, in the case of income inequality, and overall health, and infant mortality, and other categories, is that we're not leading the world - we're trailing even some of those third world countries people like to hold up as proof of our superiority.  

    Why people think lowering the standards is ever going to improve anything is just one more thing I don't think I will ever, ever understand.

    Parent

    You are really too much (4.25 / 4) (#139)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:01:22 AM EST
    I can see why you are so supportive of Obama and his policies.

    The Pope wrote very clearly and specifically about income inequality, trickle down economics and the powerful feeding upon the powerless.

    Trickle down economics that he condemns are definitely government policies.

    Somehow you choose not to see that all the areas of injustice that the Pope addressed so elegantly are very prevalent here in the U.S. They are by far more prevalent here than in any other economically developed country. You choose not to see the government policies continue to increase not decrease the inequality.

    The United States is one of the richest countries in the world, with a top 1 percent that's seen its income triple or more in the past three decades. And yet, we also do the least to fight the rising tide of income inequality. Government programs in America reduce the level of inequality by only 26 percent. Nobody else is so stingy. link

    Not only are the U.S. government programs the most stingy, the austerity program and the related legislation signed by Obama they will become much more stingy.  

    I have used facts to show how the words of Pope Francis apply to the U.S. You OTOH have just made stuff up. Wrote whole story boards on the meanings of what the Pope said that had little or nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

    You don't even rely on what the Pope has actually said to support your political views and to defend the austerity policies of the president. I can see why you would want to do that since you agree with the President that the poor and the middle class should make all the sacrifices.

    Parent

    And by the way (3.67 / 3) (#181)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:48:32 PM EST
    I don't think so.
    You should probably ask the middle class in this country to consume less and focus on spiritual life as the Pope is urging people to do.
    That practically falls into a feudalistic outlook.

    Instead I think you should probably ask the conspicuous consumers in this country (that would be the "moneyed classes". I just can't call them "upper class" with a straight face) to consume less and focus on the spiritual life as the Pope is urging them to do.

    Aiming that criticism at the already struggling middle class practically reeks of feudalism and the concept of "Divine Right".

    Parent

    This is probably a new (4.00 / 4) (#198)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 04:16:21 PM EST
    "dual trickle down "economic theory.

    The first part of this theory is well known. The government enacts programs that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor and the middle class. As the rich get exceeding more and more of the country's wealth, according to the theory some small part of that wealth is bound to trickle down to the lower classes.

    Now this is the new part of PK trickle down theory - continue to structure government programs so that you demand more and more sacrifices from the poor and the middle class. Based on the same trickle down theory, as the poor and middle class are made to sacrifice more and more, some of the effects of those sacrifices are bound to trickle down in such a way that some time in the distant future the wealthy will probably have to sacrifice something - maybe perhaps -oh, heck you get the idea.

     

    Parent

    You (1.00 / 2) (#202)
    by Politalkix on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 04:51:34 PM EST
    have lost your mind-fearmongering about austerity cuts that never happened, attributing "theories" to me that I never proposed....

    I will have to question my own sanity if I continue this conversation with you.

    Or we should all go to Argentina...Darn, I cannot even insert a smiley here without offending someone...Argentina has the highest per capita shrinks in the world link

    Parent

    I'm shocked by this (3.00 / 2) (#153)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:36:10 AM EST
    This is not to say that I am not concerned about economic inequality in America.
    I don't recall that you have ever voiced concern about economic inequality in America. I guess that sometimes my memory fails me. You have highlighted that issue in other nations. There are examples of that on this very thread. Obviously I have missed something so I'll look for a time when you have voiced concern about the issue in this nation.

    Parent
    I would be very surprised of he ever says that (none / 0) (#118)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 10:37:44 PM EST
    Just a quick comment (none / 0) (#163)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:37:11 AM EST
    MO Blue: Pope Francis is speaking to everyone when he speaks about the inequality of economies that hurt the poor, the marginalized.  It strikes me that he is speaking from the heart and as head of the Church ... and, he specifically says that he is not an economist and not talking as an expert in that regard.  I agree that he singled out the harms, naïve theories underlying "trickle down" concepts ... he specifically said so.  Like you, I applaud him for his in-between-the-eyes message.  

    Where I disagree with the tenor of some of your interpretation: IMO, the audiences that the Pope addresses here can only be understood as plural.  He is directing his apostolic exhortation to the Church, to nations, to individuals, to all who would here. IMO, also, it may be that you are pushing too hard to convert this holy man's statements about justice and mercy into a singular (or pointed) missive aimed only at American capitalism.  Clearly, his message decries injustice, and directly calls for the Church and people to get their hands dirty by directly helping and bettering the present situation.  But, I would caution that the Pope is not about to run for political office in any country ....  

    When I first saw the outline of this document, I felt thankful.  That thankfulness grows the more it comes into view.  I must admit to an "aha" or "so there" sense initially as well, tho ... I wanted to ask my parish monsignor to have the document reprinted (just as a year or two ago the Archdiocese had the anti-contraception Humanae Vitae encyclical printed and placed at the back of the Church.)  In my way, my first thoughts--then--were a kind of political gotcha.  The temptation is strong to wave a document steeped in love in the face of the more conservative members of the Church after these many years of a seemingly more stringent view.

     With today's beginning, I see Evangelii Gaudium
    as the testimony to joy that the title promises.
    Pope Francis does not flinch when he decries where societies and systems have gone wrong, have hurt rather than helped.  But, recognize this too:  The Pope is about mercy as well ... and asks his Church to practice inclusion and mercy first and foremost.  This instruction is much beyond mere politics ... it is about awareness, love, and mercy at its heart.

    Parent

    Wow this is quite a comment from a (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by MO Blue on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 04:37:47 PM EST
    person who tied the Pope's focus on the pressing need to bring about more economic justice to bestowing the Papal blessing on Obama's health insurance program. Your comment #77:

    An excerpt appearing at the NYTimes and HuffPo today, among others, focuses on the pressing need to bring about more economic justice in terms of distribution so that the poor and less well-off are treated more selflessly by society ... and, in so doing, to ensure that all can experience healthcare, education, economic justice.

    The ACA does have a necessary redistributive component ... a move toward an equalizer via subsidies and broad inclusion at the core. A large move toward universality.

    You had absolutely no problem making the Pope's comments personal with regards to Paul Ryan. Your comment #80:

    It will be interesting to see how Mr. Ryan squares his stringent austerity approach with the heartfelt call for selflessness from the head of the Church.

    You found it very acceptible to make it a "singular (or pointed) missive aimed" at the austerity policies of Paul Ryan and yet, feel the need to admonish me for broadening the scope to include the austerity approach of Obama and the members of our government, past and present.

    Parent

    I don't see that at all (none / 0) (#174)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:32:40 PM EST
    IMO, also, it may be that you are pushing too hard to convert this holy man's statements about justice and mercy into a singular (or pointed) missive aimed only at American capitalism.
    I read MO Blue as making a pointed effort to "merely" include the USA as one of those nations that should be paying attention to income inequality and the shysterism of trickle down economics. Too many people (not just here) want to make the US exempt from that criticism.

    I read MO Blue not as saying that "the missive [is] aimed only at American capitalism" so much as ""the missive [is] aimed also at American capitalism".

    How can the US possibly be ignored given its position of global influence?

    Parent

    sj: To the extent that (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:14:45 PM EST
    I misread and that MO Blue's comments are only saying that the US is also to be included in the Pope's concern/critique, I would agree.  Looking at what and how the Pope directly addressed the central subject, his call definitely is aimed at all the powerful and comfortable nations and people.  So ... we all may be saying the same thing ... excepting the sidebar political comments about specific US legislation about the specifics of a law.  

    For me, whereas I hope that those who would heed the Pope's message, the nature of the document speaks more to important, universal precepts by which we should act rather than to the intricacies of the secular legislative process. My further hope is that the spotlight of justice cast by the Pope will not go unnoticed by  lawmakers everywhere.

    Parent

    I think so, too (none / 0) (#180)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:38:05 PM EST
    I think that most of us are saying essentially the same thing.

    But I'm puzzled at this:

    ...excepting the sidebar political comments about specific US legislation about the specifics of a law.
    How else can any nation's action be measured against the papal exhortations? Isn't that how the national... philosophy (for lack of a better word) ... is manifested in the real world? Like I said up-thread:
    We, as a nation, are very willing to take credit where we do good. We should also be willing to take our lumps where we fall short.
    That can't happen unless we identify and acknowledge where we fall short.

    Parent
    Certainly, one must identify (none / 0) (#192)
    by christinep on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:34:23 PM EST
    failings in order to correct them.  Individuals and nations.  I expect a societal evaluation won't look like a report-card, though, for the reason that an identified failure/shortcoming may well have different avenues to correction. With some societal soul-searching, we may be able to define the goals and related objectives ... the challenge will be seen in how we identify and move to the actions/measures to address them. (Perhaps, for those Catholics who might read Evangelii Gaudium and/or hear it described during homilies to come, the thoughts therein will plant a seed and then some.

    Parent
    My favorite internet quote (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:40:09 AM EST
    "if they think Pope Francis is too liberal, wait until they meet Jesus!"

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by MO Blue on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 05:05:59 PM EST
    I was unable to read the WSJ article but just read Pope Francis's rigorous and comprehensive denunciation of Neoliberalism at FDL and Charlie Pierce.

    His condemnation of trickle down economics is mind blowing.

    Charlie Pierce:

    "Trickle-down." The SOB actually used the phrase? In an official document? Classic. Faith in markets has "never been confirmed by facts"? Okay, right off the top, any time this guy wants space on the blog, it's his. I keep waiting for him to give me the Latin for "zombie-eyed granny starver."


    Go Pope Francis!

     

    Parent

    I LOVE this line (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:27:38 PM EST
    I keep waiting for him to give me the Latin for "zombie-eyed granny starver."
    I dunno... overall* the Pope's statements sound liberal. And far left.

    ---
    *Except, of course for reproductive rights and ordination of women. But you gotta start somewhere. and for the Catholic Church? This is downright radical.

    Parent

    I first became interested (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:12:43 PM EST
     in this Pope several months ago when he gave an interview to a little known reporter from Central America. This reporter, (sorry, I don't remember his name) probably realizing he might never again get a chance to interview Pope Francis, hit him with all the right questions right up front. I'll bet this young journalist was pleasantly surprised with the quick, and thoughtful responses. When he asked the Pope, "one of the most difficult, and divisive, issues today is that of Gay marriage; what's your position?" The Pope answered immediately, "It's not difficult at all. When I'm asked to make what some consider a difficult decision I simply ask, where is Love? Which side is debating with love, and which has it absent? See, it's not at all difficult."

    Okey dokey, unless or until he says something to change my mind, he owns me.


    Parent

    For me... (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:40:39 PM EST
    ... it was when he chose to wash the feet of young inmates in a juvenile detention center -- including two young women and two Muslims -- for Holy Thursday. And he went to them.

    Parent
    He obviously was paying close attention (none / 0) (#193)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:39:51 PM EST
    as a younger Argentinian priest during the Reagan years when we were more active , at least rhetorically, in South American /Central American affairs.  I will have to go back and read more of his biography. I was not that interested until he started speaking his mind.

    Parent
    You have (none / 0) (#53)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:20:06 PM EST
    a subscription to the Wall Street Journal? Do you think it's worth the cost? I just signed up for the 12 week/$12 deal which is a really good price, but after that it's almost $30/month.

    Parent
    Me? Wall St. Journal? (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:27:12 PM EST
    F*ck no!

    I just happened upon their editorial online searching for Pope Frank news...I ain't trying to give Wall St. any money, even their little journal.  Pope Frank would not approve;)

    Parent

    How did (none / 0) (#57)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:37:52 PM EST
    you get access to the article?

    Parent
    Via Google link.... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:42:22 PM EST
    I was able to read the whole thing...now when I hit my link I hit the paywall.  Oops...sorry y'all.

    Parent
    And yes (none / 0) (#58)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:38:55 PM EST
    I thought it was more than a little out of character for you :)

    Parent
    Or... (none / 0) (#56)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:37:28 PM EST
    ... thought I signed up for 12 for 12. Now when I log in it says I have the free subscription and still wants me to subscribe for 12 for 12 if I want to see the article. Whaa-a-at?

    Parent
    D@mn corporate b@st@rds :) (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:40:44 PM EST
    sj, I've found (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by NYShooter on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 04:03:49 PM EST
    that when I want to read an article that's locked behind a pay wall I can usually get it simply by the Google method. Now, when you Google the name of the article you want to read many of the links will just bring you up to the pay wall. But, some of the blogs that are citing the article you want will reprint it on their site instead of using the Pay-walled URL Link. And, if they don't reprint the whole thing, they'll reprint the sections that are of interest to you.

    You know, when The Times went the pay wall route I shelled out the $15 because I didn't want to be without it and, so, I treated myself. But, now more and more are doing it. Fifteen bucks isn't a great big deal.....ONCE. But, if it gets to be a half dozen, that's real money, and time for Shyster Shooter to manicure his nails.

    Parent

    I did that (none / 0) (#92)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:47:36 PM EST
    with the NY Times, too. Also once.

    Changing the direction a bit: I've been waiting for Glenn Greenwald's new "home" to come on line, but I am more than a little concerned/baffled.

    On the one hand, I like the "stable" of contributors they are acquiring. Kind of a lot.

    On the other hand, I was wary of Pierre Omidyar when I found out he was the founder of eBay. And this profile is downright alarming.

    Parent

    Before You Send Then Cash... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:56:52 PM EST
    ...don't forget who owns it or that it is the largest paper in the US.

    Parent
    Gee Scott (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:57:50 AM EST
    you were worried about my quoting TalkLeft..

    And you are against someone paying when the owner has a pay wall???

    Good grief.

    Parent

    No, Only That people Be Aware... (none / 0) (#169)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:12:43 PM EST
    ...of where those dollars will go an what they will support.

    Not sure what you mean by "Gee Scott you were worried about my quoting TalkLeft.."

    But were you a member of the US military ?

    Parent

    So, that wasn't you? (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:18:15 PM EST
    heh

    Do you know the difference between Rate and Rank?

    Parent

    BTW - (none / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:30:36 PM EST
    I see that it was shoe. Your request just after his threw me off.

    Parent
    From our "Hyperbolic Chamber" file: (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:40:36 PM EST
    Sometimes, given his truly insipid observations and comments over the years, you really have to wonder how in the world Time magazine's Mark Halperin ever got this far. This is one of those times.

    Yes. (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Zorba on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:16:36 PM EST
    He's an idiot.

    Parent
    Americans back Iran deal (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:30:12 PM EST
    Now (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Edger on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:23:08 AM EST
    The Jacket definitely generates broad based grassroots applause.

    The song is pretty good too. Goes well with coffee and sunrise.

    Feelin' Alright!

    Your NSA at work: (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:16:38 AM EST
    NSA 'planned to discredit radicals over web-porn use'

    The US authorities have studied online sexual activity and suggested exposing porn site visits as a way to discredit people who spread radical views, the Huffington Post news site has reported.

    It published a[n October 2012] document, leaked by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden, identifying two Muslims said to be vulnerable to accusations of "online promiscuity".

    ... And everything hinges on the definition, or evolving definitions, of "radical."


    Likely cover story... (none / 0) (#183)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:49:39 PM EST
    for NSA agents surfing for pron at work...I ain't buying it.

    I don't see some young angry impressionable muslim youth denouncing his radicalizing cleric because the NSA says the cleric likes to visit donkeyshow.com

    Parent

    the two things... (none / 0) (#185)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:53:42 PM EST
    ... aren't mutually exclusive...

    Parent
    Now this made me laugh. (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 02:43:10 PM EST
    In this photo taken a couple days ago at Waimanalo Beach here on Oahu, the couple on the right is the focus of a wedding album photo shoot -- blissfully unaware that behind them, over on the left, another photographer is engaged in a markedly different kind of photo shoot.

    The couple on the right... (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Dadler on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 04:19:11 PM EST
    ...are going to be down to their BVDs and bumping honeymoon uglies in ten minutes anyway, so it's kind of apropos. Ahem.

    Parent
    The one on the left (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by CoralGables on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 04:24:00 PM EST
    looks like little more than a swimsuit photo shoot.

    Parent
    Thanks to (4.43 / 7) (#10)
    by lentinel on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:04:01 PM EST
    tireless efforts, and skilled diplomacy, it looks as if Mr. Karzai is going to graciously allow us to stay in Afghanistan well after 2014.

    If we play our cards right, we may be permitted to stay indefinitely.

    The party line that once read (4.67 / 9) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 05:00:21 PM EST
    "He got us out of Iraq and will get us out of Afghanistan by 2014" has now pivoted to maintaining forces in Afghanistan indefinitely. BTW, this is now the greatest foreign policy decision "evah."

    If that means the Afghan soldiers shoot their trainers now and again and the majority our $8b per year goes into the bank accounts of corrupt officials, it remains a small price to pay for the best foreign policy decision evah.

    No need to talk of all the billions unaccounted for in Afghanistan. We need to focus our efforts on all the fraud in our food stamp program here at home and all those lazy SOBs living off of unemployment benefits. Cut, cut, cut....

    Parent

    A good dictator is a dictator who stays bought. (none / 0) (#31)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:12:34 AM EST
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 198 (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:08:43 PM EST
    Joey's blood is also known as pharmacy juice. (link)

    Vol. 197
    Vol. 196

    Hope people are enjoying TL's default comic of the day. Only 167 to go to reach my goal of 365 in less than a calendar year. Peace out, y'all.

    Ya don't even need... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by kdog on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:20:59 PM EST
    a spoonful of sugar to make the good dope go down;)

    These kids today are so spoiled...I had to wait till recess to score the good dope in the schoolyard in my day!  

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:34:33 PM EST
    These kids get their sh*t str8 from the factory. Granted, the factory is whackass profit crazy way beyond any street dealer, and it requires parents with atrophied minds and hearts, but still...

    Parent
    Privacy (none / 0) (#6)
    by ragebot on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:52:41 PM EST
    A President who keeps his pledges! (none / 0) (#16)
    by Politalkix on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 09:04:53 PM EST
    Foreign policy was the most important issue for BHO's earliest and most vocal supporters during the disastrous GWB presidency in the post 9/11 world. No wonder they think the President is delivering for them. HRC mocked BHO for saying that if he had had intelligence that OBL was hiding in Pakistan, he would take him out irrespective of whether Pakistan gave him permission or not and also for saying that he would launch diplomatic initiatives without preconditions to bring America's foe nations to the negotiating table. The President has kept his word!

    link

    "For Mr. Obama, the shift to diplomacy fulfills a campaign pledge from 2008 that he would stretch out a hand to America's enemies and speak to any foreign leader without preconditions.

    White House officials suggest that the president always planned to arrive at this moment, and that everything that came before it -- from the troop surge in Afghanistan to the commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden -- was cleaning up after his predecessor.

    "In 2009, we had 180,000 troops in two wars and a ton of legacy issues surrounding terrorism," said Benjamin J. Rhodes, a deputy national security adviser. "So much that was done out of the box was winding down those wars. We've shifted from a very military face on our foreign policy to a very diplomatic face on our foreign policy."

    Much of that diplomacy has been on public display in the hypercaffeinated travels of Secretary of State John Kerry, who, in addition to his work on Iran and Syria, has persuaded the Israelis and Palestinians to resume peace negotiations. A few hours after sealing the nuclear deal in Geneva, he flew to London for talks on the Syria conference.

    But some of the crucial dealings have occurred in the shadows. In March, administration officials said, Mr. Obama authorized a small team of senior officials from the White House and the State Department to travel secretly to Oman, the Persian Gulf sultanate, where they met face to face with Iranian officials to explore the possibility of a nuclear deal.

    The cloak-and-dagger was necessary, the officials said, because it allowed the United States and Iran to discuss the outlines of a nuclear deal without fear that details would leak out.


    Ooooh!! Ooooh!!! G-u-u-s-s-s-h-hh!!!! (4.33 / 6) (#17)
    by Edger on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:03:56 AM EST
    OMFG, he's like s-o-o-o-o totally awesome. Ooooh! Pant.

    Your link is broken. And your quote left out three paragraphs.

    Here. Let me help you...

    The cloak-and-dagger was necessary, the officials said, because it allowed the United States and Iran to discuss the outlines of a nuclear deal without fear that details would leak out.

    But the disclosure that the United States and Iran had been talking privately angered France, which registered its displeasure two weeks ago by warning that the proposal then being discussed was too lenient and that it would not accept a "sucker's deal."

    For all of Mr. Obama's emphasis on diplomacy, analysts noted that [he] often depends on others to take the initiative. In the case of Iran, it was the election of Hassan Rouhani as president, with his mandate to seek a relaxation of punishing sanctions.

    In the case of Syria, it was a Russian proposal for President Bashar al-Assad to turn over and destroy his chemical weapons stockpiles, an option the White House seized on as a way of averting a military strike that Mr. Obama first threatened and then backed off from.

    Ooops. Sorry. Didn't mean to let the details leak out...

    Parent

    Iran had a moderate President (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:47:04 AM EST
    named Mohammed Khatami before Ahmednijad. No one seized the initiative to start a dialogue with Khatami.

    Parent
    Let's see... (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by unitron on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:26:31 AM EST
    ...Mohammed Khatami was prez there from about the time the blue dress was throwing itself into the line of fire to protect the seal on the Oval Office carpet to the middle of Shrub's 8 years.

    So, not a lot of opportunity between Clinton's need not to give the right wing any further ammunition ("He's negotiatin' with turrists!"), and Bush's likely disinclination to do anything anymore polite to Iran than keeping Cheney and Rumsfeld from bombing Teheran.

    Parent

    So (2.67 / 3) (#86)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:19:29 PM EST
    So Big Dawg blew (no pun intended) away his chance at peace by letting the pubs tie his hands with the blue dress? The blue dress defense really undermines claims that the Lewinsky affair was a personal issue without any affect on policy. It is amusing to see people like jbindc high rating this view-unknowingly they have shot themselves in the foot while aiming their gun at the President.

    It is also really funny to see the extent to which people like jbindc, Edgar, etc will go deny the President credit for opening diplomacy with Iran. They are ready to give credit to Rouhani (as they should), the Russians and everybody else but not the President. However, facts are stubborn things, they will just not go away. The facts remain that long before Rouhani became the President, BHO offered Iran a promise of a new beginning link, sending the Iranian people his Navroz greetings link. Unfortunately, the results of the disputed elections that followed in Iran threw a temporary spanner in the works because the Iranian regime took a hard line against street protests that erupted in support of the Green revolution and its leader, Mir-Hossain Moussavi.
    The President's efforts to open diplomacy with Iran predates efforts by Rouhani to open diplomatic channels. It does not make any sense to deny it.

    Parent

    Jeebus (3.67 / 3) (#91)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:34:37 PM EST
    You are nothing but a provocateur. State your positions and see if anyone cares enough to engage on the merits. That's fine. That's good, even. But your constant belittling and throwing of unnecessary gauntlets is really, really, really old.

    Parent
    This is the funniest part of PK's screed (3.00 / 2) (#132)
    by jbindc on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:17:22 AM EST
    It is also really funny to see the extent to which people like jbindc, Edgar, etc will go deny the President credit for opening diplomacy with Iran. They are ready to give credit to Rouhani (as they should), the Russians and everybody else but not the President

    Since I have not said anything about this topic.

    Which just proves, as you point out, that PK isn't interested in a discussion, but rather gathering up pom-poms.

    Parent

    Of course you voiced your opinion (1.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Politalkix on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:21:43 AM EST
    by high rating Edgar's post  where he selectively highlighted the part reproduced below without focusing on the entire context and tone of the article

    "For all of Mr. Obama's emphasis on diplomacy, analysts noted that [he] often depends on others to take the initiative. In the case of Iran, it was the election of Hassan Rouhani as president, with his mandate to seek a relaxation of punishing sanctions."

    Parent

    His comment (3.67 / 3) (#137)
    by jbindc on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:39:34 AM EST
    actually gave context to yours, which is why it deserved a "5".

    But again, I have not voiced an opinion on, you know, the actual topic.

    Parent

    Imagine that...PK, who regularly hands (4.33 / 6) (#141)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:11:03 AM EST
    out ratings without commenting, gets his/her nose out of joint when someone else does it.

    I think there's a word for that...it'll come to me.

    [now going back to Day Two of Prepping for Thanksgiving At My House...made a lot of progress yesterday.  Today it's the relish tray, apple pies, gingerbread roll, and the mashed potatoes - and getting the tables set up and moving some furniture around.  Gotta get the bird out of the brine so the skin can dry - it gets crispier when it's not "wet."]

    Parent

    I (1.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:02:23 PM EST
    may have to send you a mirror as a Christmas present since you do not seem to have one. Goodbye!

    Parent
    Make it a big one (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by sj on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 11:18:56 PM EST
    that leans against the wall.

    Parent
    "The blue dress defense... (none / 0) (#128)
    by unitron on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 06:16:47 AM EST
    ...really undermines claims that the Lewinsky affair was a personal issue without any affect on policy."

    You never heard those claims from me. I didn't care about his sex life as long as everyone involved were consenting adults and it didn't leave him open to blackmail and extortion, but when, instead of telling the press "I'm not going to discuss that young lady's personal life" and letting questions go unanswered in silence until they got it, he shook his finger at us and referred to her as "that woman", it was obvious that he had just lied right to our faces, and should have arranged to resign as soon as possible without costing Al one of his two possible terms.

    But bcause he was busy dealing with all of that, a lot of stuff that takes a President to do in order to get done fell by the wayside, because the party that didn't really have any problem with Nixon's black bag jobs wanted to derail the country by having hypocritical vapors over Clinton's BJs.

    Parent

    Unitron (none / 0) (#135)
    by Politalkix on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:24:21 AM EST
    You never made those claims and I am aware of this fact.

    Parent
    Now about that $8 Billion... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:08:00 PM EST
    Rumsfeld and Cheney's old bosses are unshuttering their Iran sales offices and the bill collectors are lining up...

    Parent
    Meanwhile, back in ... (3.67 / 3) (#41)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:02:13 PM EST
    U.S. provokes China by flying B-Freakin'-52s through China's "expanded air defense identification zone."

    WASHINGTON -- Two long-range American bombers have conducted what Pentagon officials described Tuesday as a routine training mission through international air space recently claimed by China as its "air defense identification zone."

    The Chinese government said Saturday that it has the right to identify, monitor and possibly take military action against aircraft that enter the area, which includes sea and islands also claimed by Japan. The claim threatens to escalate an already tense dispute over some of the maritime territory.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/27/world/asia/us-flies-b-52s-into-chinas-expanded-air-defense-zone.ht ml?_r=0

    Parent

    Meanwhile, back in... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:04:56 PM EST
    U.S. provokes China by flying B-Freakin'-52s through China's "expanded air defense identification zone."

    WASHINGTON -- Two long-range American bombers have conducted what Pentagon officials described Tuesday as a routine training mission through international air space recently claimed by China as its "air defense identification zone."

    The Chinese government said Saturday that it has the right to identify, monitor and possibly take military action against aircraft that enter the area, which includes sea and islands also claimed by Japan. The claim threatens to escalate an already tense dispute over some of the maritime territory.

    (Sorry about the URL overload in my first attempt)

    Parent

    Well (1.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 06:30:52 PM EST
    The pathetic Mr. Natural, naturally omitted to mention that the Chinese government unilaterally laid claim over the islands link over the protests of Japan and Japanese airlines will also not accommodate Chinese claims. link

    Parent
    China provokes Asian nations (none / 0) (#103)
    by Politalkix on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:19:40 PM EST
    link
    may possibly be making strategic blunder.

    Parent
    The Supreme Leader of Iran, (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:39:50 AM EST
    Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, told reporters today his nation agreed to a deal on its nuclear program in the hopes that it would distract attention from the trouble-plagued rollout of Obamacare.

    "It's true, we've resisted any deal on nukes for over three decades," the Ayatollah said. "But when we saw how much trouble Obama was having with his Web site, we realized it would be uncaring of us not to try to help him out."

    The Ayatollah said he was not "overly optimistic" that signing a nuclear treaty with the West would be sufficient to distract attention from the President's Obamacare woes, but, he added, "You never know. Every little bit helps."

    link

    Are you familiar with the name (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Peter G on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:26:08 AM EST
    "Borowitz"?

    Parent
    Reality Check Time (none / 0) (#140)
    by ragebot on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:08:04 AM EST
    Certainly not from a humor site.  To the best of my knowledge Iran does not have a sense of

    humor.

    Parent

    Supreme Court (none / 0) (#48)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:56:40 PM EST
    will hear challenge to birth control mandate:

    The Supreme Court will hear a case arguing that private businesses should not be required to offer their employees health insurance that covers contraception, the court announced on Tuesday.

    The case centers on a controversial measure of the Affordable Care Act that business owners say violates their right to religious freedom by forcing them to pay for a service they find objectionable.

    It will be the first time that the high court will revisit the healthcare law since last June, when it upheld the constitutionality of the overall law and affirmed a requirement that individuals carry health insurance or pay a penalty.

    The court will hear the case this term, most likely in the spring.



    Nobody "gets" it... (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by unitron on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 06:45:07 AM EST
    ...if health care insurance is part of an employee's overall compensation package, then it's being paid for with the employee's money, and not the employer's.

    Does your employer get to follow you into the grocery store and tell you on what you can and can't spend your paycheck?

    Imagine if an employer who was a member of one of those faiths whose dietary laws are a little more strict than "don't eat other humans" were to start telling employees that they, too, were forbidden to eat pork, or whatever.

    Parent

    But note (none / 0) (#50)
    by jbindc on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:03:39 PM EST
    These two cases are not based in Constitutional claims, but rather under free exercise of religion claims under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA).

    Parent
    "Free exercise of religion"? Really? (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 03:42:05 PM EST
    "Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, 'Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?'

    "But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, 'Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.' And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, 'Whose likeness and inscription is this?' They said to Him, 'Caesar's.'

    "Then He said to them, 'Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.' And hearing this, they were amazed, and leaving Him, they went away."
    -- The Gospel According to Matthew, Chapter 22, Verses 15-22.

    With due regard to the good Christians at Hobby Lobby, I would defer to the observation of my late grandmother, a pious Roman Catholic who nevertheless also believed in the separation of state and church, that those who would wear their religion so publicly and prominently on their sleeves, do so because they have very little room for true faith in their own hearts.

    Just my opinion, but this case really has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with the furtherance of someone's political agenda.
    Employers really have no business imposing their own subjective moral judgments upon the private and personal medical decisions of their employees.

    Were Hobby Lobby to prevail in this case, what's to prevent a so-called "Christian employer" from also claiming the same religious exemption for their opposition to homosexuality and sex outside of wedlock, as justification to deny coverage for HIV medication, treatment for STDs, and the pregnancy of an employee's unmarried dependent daughter who's otherwise covered under her parent's policy?

    Do we really want to go there?

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Your last paragraph sums it up well (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:20:34 PM EST
    All sorts of exemptions could be demanded in the future based on bigotry and ignorance.

    Parent
    A Better Analogy... (none / 0) (#149)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 09:45:29 AM EST
    ...might be the Christian Scientists believe that medicine and Christian Science healing are incompatible, IOW they don't believe in doctors.  Or maybe I will start a new religion in which I don't believe republicans deserve health care.  Do I get to exempt half my staff from health care because of my religious convictions.

    I am so fricken sick and tired of Christians and their never ending BS.  It's birth control, which IMO is none of the employers business, they don't get to dictate jack about what a woman, or a man and woman, or a woman and woman, do in their personal lives.  Nor do they keep getting exemptions for their Bronze Age beliefs and keep their tax exempt status.

    No deals, nothing, you want to be an employer in the US, you follow the same rules and everyone else.  Got religious issues with it, too bad, either get over your idiocy or lose the tax exempt status.  Their choice.

    Parent

    But Hobby Lobby is a for-profit corporation. (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:35:54 PM EST
    It's not tax-exempt. It's the owners / management who are claiming that providing for contraceptive coverage for company's employees is an affront to their religious sensibilities.

    Such willingness to assert that their personal religious beliefs and company policy are in fact one and the same, is a very Louis XIV "L'Etat, C'est Moi" sort of thing.

    The very idea that SCOTUS might determine that an incorporated for-profit entity can claim for itself a personal relationship with the Almighty, to which its spiritual beliefs must therefore be deferred and respected by the individual, is otherwise farcical on its face -- were the prospect of just such a ruling being handed down next summer not so chilling to contemplate.

    Seen in that light, this is a further attempt to equate the rights of corporations with the rights of people.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes, exactly. I have always (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:43:24 PM EST
    thought that, if Hobby Lobby et al wind up being allowed to exempt birth control coverage from their employer-provided insurance plans, then why wouldn't a company owned by a Christian Scientist be allowed to exclude all health care except for Christian Science practitioners?  Or a company owned by a Jehovah's Witness be allowed to exclude blood transfusions from their health insurance plans?
    Religion and law/politics do not mix.  Separation of church and state.
    And if they want to bring religion into it, maybe they ought to look at the New Testament.
    "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."  The words of Jesus Christ himself.
    If they want further proof, they can look at one of the Epistles of St. Paul.  "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
    (Not that I am very fond of much of what Paul wrote, but there it is, in their own Scriptures.)
     

    Parent
    It's all about them never coming (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:24:00 AM EST
    to terms with sex..

    And never coming to terms with Freud's insight about how the repressed returns in distorted form..

    And what exactly is loving about contributing to the spread of disease, and the number of uncared for, unloved children? Someone fill me in.

    Parent

    "Just give me that old time. (none / 0) (#160)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:09:16 AM EST
    repressed rationality..."

    Parent
    Well, one case (none / 0) (#158)
    by jbindc on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:03:48 AM EST
    (the Hobby Lobby case) involves a family of owners who are conservative Christians.  The other case (Conestoga Wood Specialties Corp. v. Sebelius) involves a family of owners who are Mennonites (which IS a First Amendment case).

    Wiki discusses Mennonites and sexuality:

    Sexuality, marriage, and family mores[of] The Mennonite church has no formal celibate religious order similar to monasticism, but recognizes the legitimacy of and honours both the single state and the sanctity of marriage of its members. Single persons are expected to be chaste, and marriage is held to be a lifelong, monogamous and faithful covenant between a man and a woman. In conservative groups, divorce is discouraged, and it is believed that the "hardness of the heart" of people is the ultimate cause of divorce. Some conservative churches have disciplined members who have unilaterally divorced their spouses outside of cases of sexual unfaithfulness or acute abuse.[citation needed] Until approximately the 1960s or 1970s, before the more widespread urbanization of the Mennonite demographic, divorce was quite rare. In recent times, divorce is more common, and also carries less stigma, particularly in cases where abuse was known.

    Some Mennonite churches identify as LGBT-affirming churches. Congregations have been disciplined by or expelled from their regional conferences for taking such a stance,[36][better source needed] while other congregations have been allowed to remain "at variance" with official Mennonite Church USA policy.[37][better source needed] Some pastors who performed same-sex unions have had their credentials revoked by their conference,[38] but more recently some have had their credentials reviewed without any disciplinary actions taken.[39][40]

    Traditionally, very modest dress was expected, particularly in conservative Mennonite circles. As the Mennonite population has become urbanized and more integrated into the wider culture, this visible difference has disappeared outside of conservative Mennonite groups.

    SCOTUSblog has a good synopsis of both cases.

    Parent

    RFRA (none / 0) (#97)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:20:04 PM EST
    (called "Rifra") was declared unconstitutional as applied to the states.   City of Boerne.   RLUIPA (called "RRR-loopah") was passed in 2000, by voice vote in the Senate without dissent as I recall, to address that deficiency.   Marci Hamilton has a lot on this (from a perspective of opposing it.)

    Regardless of whether RIFRA is constitutional, how it applies to corporations is beyond me.  A split in the Circuits seemed to destine this case for the Supreme Court, so I would think it hard to read anything in the grant of cert.

    Parent

    Movie recommendation: "Nebraska" (none / 0) (#96)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:18:11 PM EST
    I think I may have already mentioned in another thread that saw it over the weekend. D*amn, but Bruce Dern is a fine actor. I always thought so, but he really reaches a peak with this performance, playing a character who is not very likeable and yet so complex (realistically, in my view) that it's well worth the price of admission.

    It hasn't opened out here yet. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:31:23 PM EST
    But I'm really looking forward to seeing it. Alexander Payne has been one of our more thoughtful directors these last few years. The advance buzz is that Bruce Dern is all but a shoo-in for a Best Actor Oscar nomination.

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    He would be totally deserving (none / 0) (#111)
    by shoephone on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 09:20:40 PM EST
    It's been a long time since I thought the Oscar nominations were worthy, but this year's are top-notch. I also saw Redford in "All is Lost" and he"s very good too. But Dern's performance is challenging to watch, for a few reasons, and he excels. I'm slated to see "12 Years a Slave" this weekend and I'm expecting to be upset by it, but finally... a year of movies really worth seeing!

    Parent
    Given that Academy Award nominations ... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 02:19:10 PM EST
    ... are actually peer-conferred, I tend to give them more credence than say, the People's Choice Awards or even the Golden Globes.

    That said, I've certainly had a few quibbles in the past with Academy voters over their choices for the actual Awards themselves -- most recently, their decision to give "Crash" the Best Picture prize over "Brokeback Mountain." I mean, Crash" was good, but in obvious retrospect it was hardly a memorable or milestone film that lingers with you long afterward, like "Brokeback" was.

    Then there's "Titanic" over "L.A. Confidential," "Forrest Gump" over "Pulp Fiction," "Chariots of Fire" over "Reds" and "Kramer vs. Kramer" over "Apocalypse Now!"

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Broce Dern was always great (none / 0) (#150)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:15:45 AM EST
    I loved his turn as the sympathetic Texas judge near the end of All The Pretty Horses.

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    I've loved him (none / 0) (#155)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:40:16 AM EST
    since I first saw him in "Support Your Local Sheriff". That's how shallow I am.

    In my defense, I was just a kid. And I took the time to remember his name as well as that of James Garner and Walter Brennan.

    Parent

    Not shallow at all. A great movie. (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:22:48 PM EST
    I just read an interview with Dern (none / 0) (#177)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 12:44:58 PM EST
    in which he said that one of his favorite roles was in the movie "Smile," (a very old one, directed by MIchael Ritchie) and "a movie that nobody saw." I'd like him to know that I not only saw it, I saw it when it first played in the theaters, and have seen it 3 or 4 times since. It's the one about the beauty pageant in Santa Rosa, CA.

    Parent
    Dern incurred a lot of public notoriety ... (none / 0) (#182)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 01:49:13 PM EST
    ... back in 1972 as the man who shot John Wayne in the back and killed him in The Cowboys. It certainly elevated his profile as an actor, but generally did not endear him to Wayne's fan base.

    I really liked his performance as Jane Fonda's husband in "Coming Home," a military officer returned from Vietnam who discovers his wife's infidelity. That led to his only Oscar nomination thus far, for best supporting actor. which went that year to Christopher Walken for "The Deer Hunter."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Listening to the Slate discussion of it (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:44:00 AM EST
    this AM, it sounded so much like my own relationship with my dad, I really have to see it.

    Parent
    In other news... (none / 0) (#136)
    by unitron on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:32:58 AM EST
    ...those big old mean unions continue to beat up on poor little Wal-Mart.

    Unions Hate That Workers Highly Covet Wal-Mart Jobs

    Wow (none / 0) (#159)
    by sj on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 11:06:04 AM EST
    That was some of the strangest thinking I have encountered in a while.

    Unions want those low paid workers (who, incidentally, are all too often also on food stamps) to fund their pensions.

    That is some twisted sh!t right there.

    Parent

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 200 (none / 0) (#145)
    by Dadler on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:43:13 AM EST