Saturday College Football OpenThread

The picks (2 units unless otherwise indicated): Nebraska +2 over Penn State, Missouri -3 over Mississippi (3 units), Michigan State -7 over Northwestern (3 units), Kansas State -5 over Oklahoma, Iowa State -6 over Kansas, Cincinnati +3 over Houston (3 units), BYU Pick over Notre Dame (3 units), LSU -4 over Texas A&M (3 units), Oregon -20 over Arizona, Tennessee -3 over Vanderbilt, Boise State -6 over San Diego State (3 units), Baylor -8 over Oklahoma State (3 units).

This week's Amato and Armando Show:

Open Thread.

< Friday Open Thread: 50 Years Ago Today | Duke Lacrosse Accuser Convicted of Murder >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 196 (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 10:46:47 AM EST
    There's a reason you never see a 99cent mortuary. (link)

    Vol. 195
    Vol. 194

    Happy Saturday, y'all. Today's my belated birthday "party," which mostly means my wife cooks me a great dinner, I get a few gifts, and then we retire to the boudoir -- to commiserate about our sciatica. Sigh. I love getting old!

    So proud of my 13 year-old today (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 12:01:09 PM EST
    With no prompting from adults, Eli and his friend Miguel are going down to the community center to work a three-hour volunteer shift getting emergency supplies ready for shipment to Philippines typhoon victims. Sometimes your kids surprise you in the best of ways. Peace out.

    Great kid. (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by desertswine on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 12:54:11 PM EST
    Via my mother's facebook page (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 02:45:45 PM EST
    While thinking about Egypt recently, and Morsi on trial, I recalled the messages left on mi madre's facebook page by some of the more secular/liberal/moderate Egyptian citizens she met back in 2006 during the making of her documentary JUST LIKE US.

    The comments are very telling, when you think about where these particular Egyptian folks are coming from -- not fundamentalist, educators for the most part, secular some of them...in other words, folks we have more in common with that one could imagine. And I'll let the couple of messages speak, or confound in their mangled form (poetic, to me), for themselves.

    Message 1:

    Ismaiel Shafiey posted to Laurel Adler
    July 7
    Dear DR. Adler. my wife & son and I send their greeting to you. would you please send our respect to American people whom Egyptian people love. on other hand would you please to pass this message to your friend at U S A: 1. what was occurred in Egypt is not a coup It is a REVOLUTION . 2. we astonished that CNN & president OBAMA support terrorism. 3. there are tendency that Egyptian foreign policy will change to RUSSIA & CHINA . and that will effect great los for U S A policy at Middle East. my best wishes to you & your friends. hope to see you in near future at Egypt. with my best regards.

    Message 2:

    Engy Nabil Alfons
    July 6
    My dear American friends,

    We, Egyptian people are really sorry for what President Obama is turned to be!
    Well, I know that some of you have been praying for Egypt and I'm kindly asking you to continue to do the same.
    I'm writing this today so you can pass this important message to your people and your country:

    "What happened in Egypt on the 30th of June IS NOT A COUP, It is just the second batch of the Egyptian revolution"

    May God Bless Egypt

    There were more, but these are pretty much a median. For what it's worth, on my mind this morning.

    Link to my mom's pre-Arab Spring Egypt documentary.

    Conspiracy theories (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by jtaylorr on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:00:18 PM EST
    have really taken hold in Egypt re: the U.S. & the Muslim Brotherhood. It's along the same lines as the stuff you hear coming out of the mouths of Tea Partiers. Here's a good Economist article about the theories.
    One irony among many is that, with the odd change in detail, this theory of an evil grand Western design is eerily familiar. It is nearly identical to the narrative of victimhood long purveyed by those now being hounded by those same police and intelligence officers--the Muslim Brothers and their Islamist fellow-travellers

    The line that stands out to me the most... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:11:07 PM EST
    ...in the facebook excerpts I quoted, is this:

    "What happened in Egypt on the 30th of June IS NOT A COUP, It is just the second batch of the Egyptian revolution."

    There is a very difficult irony, an almost impossible irony, in its truth IMO.


    meant to put truth in quotes at the end there (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:11:49 PM EST
    ...in its "truth" IMO.

    May you live in interesting times (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:08:00 PM EST
    Dammit all if we don't.

    And thanks for the link.


    And sadly, in that region of the world... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:17:11 PM EST
    ...our profound inhumanity and incompetence give Egyptians every reason to believe the worst about us. I cannot blame them in the least. Superpowers suck. That never changes.

    Egypt thinks the worst about Turkey also (none / 0) (#36)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 11:06:32 PM EST

    And they are giving a red carpet welcome to the Russians.

    The generals in Egypt think that the Russians will protect them from their own people.

    Everything is not our fault!


    A Short History of America by R. Crumb (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:17:55 PM EST
    The man was a genius. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:39:15 PM EST
    I always liked this Zap Comics cover he did....

    Deep Psychological Insights and Mystic Revelations!!!


    WAS a genius? (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:44:45 PM EST
    He still is.

    I know he's pretty wispy, and if he turns sideways you might not be able to see him, but he's still kickin'.


    My bad. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:47:20 PM EST
    You're right! I don't know why I thought he had moved on. Maybe because so many people I know from that era have?

    There's a great interview (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:36:50 AM EST
    of Crumb by critic Robert Hughs on the net somewhere that's well worth hunting down..

    They both punch some well-needed holes in the NYC centered art racket and delve in an insightful-hilarious way into each others personal histories and creative influences..


    I remember a cover he did (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:37:04 AM EST
    for Whole Earth Review some years back that elicited some, shall we say, spirited responses from the subscribers. No tepid responses: half were of the "cancel my subscription immediately" variety, and half were along the lines of cudos for telling the truth and pushing the boundries..

    Goya's work elicited the same responce in his time..


    That's how you know genius (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Dadler on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 12:21:51 PM EST
    At least to me.

    And.. (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 01:53:18 PM EST
    he's absolutely hilarious at times. At least to me. I grew up living next-door to a family that was a lot like Crumb's family of origin. Those guys were my playmates. All ostracized at school for being "f*cking queer" weirdos. One of them was studying the collected works of Aleistar Crowley when he was like twelve and used to come to the door dressed in a black, hooded robe..
    So the docu Crumb really resonated with me.

    Nuclear Deal with Iran reached (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:53:34 PM EST

    Transformative foreign policy!
    Congratulations SoS Kerry and President BHO!

    Methinks first, congratulations world... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by gbrbsb on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 09:28:27 PM EST
    and I reckon Zarif, Rouhani, Lavrov and Wi might have also had a major hand in this inaugural step on what will probably be a very long and bumpy road, so deserve some congratulating too.

    Obama to speak (none / 0) (#32)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 09:31:19 PM EST
    11:30 p.m. EST.

    Deal includes lifting of oil sanctions....


    Ha Ha Ha (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 10:28:50 PM EST
    Harry Reid drops the nuke on Mitch McConnell while the US is ready to sign a nuke deal with Iran....
    What a week! Who would have thunk it?

    Does Mitch McConnell speak (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:42:33 AM EST
    clearly when he has an actual mouth full of mashed potatoes?

    I wish commenters here (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 11:31:09 PM EST
    Would stop arguing about the 2008 primaries :). Just wishin

    Amen! (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by sj on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 12:44:55 PM EST
    I was practically tearing my hair out when some people were telling others what they "foolishly thought" six years ago.

    But it's a new day, I just updated my phone, and I feel better now.


    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 06:33:59 PM EST
    I guess it probably is better to let people live in their world of 11 dimensional chess and imaginary transformative politics.

    Do you feel you have enough hours and (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 07:36:22 PM EST
    Years to persuade them otherwise :) ?  They seem rather set in their views.

    Actually (4.00 / 4) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:02:56 AM EST
    I don't but it's like talking to a tea partier in a lot of ways. You'll never convince a tea partier that Bush wasn't Jesus anymore than you'll convince the Obama is the savior crowd that it isn't 11 dimensional chess.

    I'll take your bet (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 10:15:53 AM EST
    About Texas A&M.

    It will be a high scoring game, but A&M wins the day, 48-42.

    Manziel (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 10:41:28 AM EST
    Talented kid, obviously, but at his small size, and with his often frantic style of play, I just don't think there's any way he doesn't get splattered one of these days. He's a career ending injury just waiting to rip, tear, fracture, you name it.

    That said, I think I agree with you on this game. Which means the opposite will happen. ;-)


    It's not that I don't think he's talented. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 04:21:32 PM EST
    But what irritates me about Johnny Manziel is the relentless media hype over him. Jeez, Colt Brennan was a much better and smarter QB and didn't get this sort of overblown fawning, and he broke every NCAA single-season passing and efficiency record.

    Further, the A&M receiving corps have really done yeoman's work these past two seasons, but they get little if any credit for somehow managing to come down with the ball whenever Manziel forces it recklessly into double- and triple-coverage, which is six or seven times a game at least. One of these days -- today, perhaps? -- he'll throw five or six picks, and that'll be that.


    I agree (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:06:21 PM EST
    I've seen far too many plays where he scrambles and then just heaves up a jump ball and, somehow, his receivers have managed to come down with the majority of them. It's uncanny and really plain lucky, so we'll see what becomes of the lad. Trust fund and all, I suspect he'll be more than okay. ;-)

    All hail, Johnny Football! (none / 0) (#33)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 09:46:35 PM EST
    Today's stats: 16-41, 224 yds., 1 TD, 2 INTs in A&M's 34-10 loss at LSU.

    That was a sucky game (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 05:52:52 AM EST
    My prediction (none / 0) (#4)
    by ragebot on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 11:12:25 AM EST
    FSU wins by 50+ and Winston sits the second half.

    GO DUCKS... (none / 0) (#5)
    by fishcamp on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 11:38:09 AM EST
    as long as California beats Stanford I'll be happy.

    Spent some time at UCB back in the 60s (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by ragebot on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 12:31:14 PM EST
    and really enjoyed it.  Lots of good times there and across the bay bridge in SF.  But have to say my guess is Stanford will win going away.

    Ducks are struggling. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 04:24:12 PM EST
    Last I saw, Arizona's up in the 2Q, 21-9.

    8:59 4Q: Arizona 35, Oregon 16. (none / 0) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:24:02 PM EST
    It's not looking good for the No. 5 Ducks down in Tucson.

    8:45 4Q: Arizona 42, Oregon 16. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:26:34 PM EST
    Stick a fork in them. They're done.

    If he sits the second half (none / 0) (#8)
    by CoralGables on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 12:32:25 PM EST
    FSU fans might be hoping the first half isn't the last half they see of Winston this season.

    My prediction (none / 0) (#9)
    by ragebot on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 12:47:18 PM EST
    is Winston is not charged and FSU beats 'bama in the natty going away.  The biggest advantage FSU has over any team this year is their FG kicker.  While he has not been used a lot (FSU has fewer third down attempts than any other team) he has been great when he is allowed to kick.



    FSU has some questions to answer. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 11:40:14 PM EST
    Given that the alleged victim reported the assault to university police eleven months ago on December 7, 2012, and Title IX required the university to immediately commence and conduct a "prompt, thorough, and impartial" investigation upon being notified, why did FSU publicly confirm late last week that the school is only now investigating the report?

    Given that such an investigation normally takes no more than 60 days to complete, this should have been looked at months ago, and a determination made before Winston was even allowed to participate in spring drills.

    If that's indeed the case, then Florida State is in violation of federal law, because according to the U.S. Department of Education, the university's own investigation into student conduct regarding allegations of sexual harassment and rape should be independent of law enforcement, and should not be dependent on the existence or outcome of a criminal query. If FSU was deliberately indifferent for months on end to its obligations to the alleged victim under federal law, the school may be looking at some serious civil litigation.

    Having tried to bring myself up to speed on the Winston case, here are some questions I have:

    • Why did the Tallahassee Police Dept. initially close the investigation last February, even though the alleged victim had identified Jameis Winston as her assailant, and a DNA sample taken from the accuser's underwear the day after the incident proved a direct match with Winston?

    • Why was the case re-opened by the state's attorney's office 9 months later? Was the decision to re-open Is related to a report that a Tallahassee police detective had pointedly warned the alleged victim to consider dropping her charges last January, because the investigation would prove very hard on her due to Winston's place on the Seminole football team?

    • Did the alleged victim in fact agree to drop the charges last February, as has been claimed by the Tallahassee Police Dept., even though her family strenuously denies that she had agreed to any such thing?

    • Why is Winston, after initially denying that he even knew the young woman, only now changing his story to admit that they had sex, but that it was consensual?

    It should be noted that while DNA evidence does link the alleged victim to Winston, there is at present a paucity of other evidence to support her claim that it was actually the result of an assault. And it goes without saying the Winston enjoys our presumption of his innocence until such time as he has been charged and found guilty in a court of law.

    But that said, there's a lot more to this case than you seem to think. I'm not at all certain what will happen her, and you shouldn't be, either.

    2nd District State's Attorney William Meggs has earned something of a reputation in some quarters for being a hard-a$$ on charges involving student-athletes. Still the community pressure upon him right now is enormous, and the stakes are high.

    Were he to charge Winston with a felony, and the charge adversely affects the football team on the field because of Winston's suspension, only to see a jury then dismiss the charge due to a lack of compelling evidence that an assault occurred, it could prompt an enormous political backlash against his office in football-crazy Tallahassee.



    Response (none / 0) (#43)
    by ragebot on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 09:46:30 AM EST
    Too lazy to find the link but I think it was SI that had a blurb about the Title IX stuff.  It pointed out that FSU was far from alone in not meeting Title IX reporting requirements and the feds had never been strict in applying Title IX punishment.  

    While I am not condoning violating the law as SI (hope I got that right) reported once law enforcement is involved the schools investigation may be delayed until law enforcement completes its investigation.  In any case FSU's delay of months pales when compared to say Penn State delaying its investigation by a decade.  If the feds were not strict with that delay I doubt they will come down hard on FSU.  I am not sure who would file a civil suit, who would you think that would be.

    The case was not closed it was put on inactive status.  The TPD claims this was because the girl was not cooperating after it was pointed out her statements were not credible.  The DNA match did not come until last week when Winston provided a sample.

    The case was not reopened by the SAO.  While there may be some holes this is my understanding.  A reporter from the Tampa Times made a FOI request to the TPD using a specific incident number (the next day TMZ made the same request, followed by lots of other media outlets).  The girl's lawyer would know the incident number, as well as TPD employees but no one else.  The reporter has been linked to the girl's aunt's lover Patricia Carroll who is the lawyer representing the girl, and speculation is Carroll provided the Tampa Times reporter with the incident number.  Once TPD got the FOI request the case was moved from inactive to active status and sent to the SAO.  As lots of sources have reported it is common for LEOs to tell a vic it will be tough to file a he said she said sex assault claim.  Nothing to see there move along.  Part of the reason for this warning was because they did not deem the vic's statements as credible.

    There is not agreement on what the vic did or did not do.  TPD claims she was not cooperating with them while her lawyer disputes this.  Her lawyer was making demands in terms of blood tests that are not normally made.  This relates to the vic's possibly being drugged or drunk.  In general TPD takes a hard line with FSU students and an even harder line with FSU athletes.  My best guess was the lawyer (who is a PI lawyer) was not experienced in criminal law and a pain in the buttissmoo.  What ever the case the TPD and the lawyer are disputing each others claims.  To make matters worse the vic may have some mental or emotional issues.

    Winston never made any statement.  His lawyer has and has never said Winston did not have sex with the girl.  In fact in Jan/Feb (time line is not clear) when Jansen (the FSU football team lawyer) was contacted by TPD he provided statements to TPD from the vic's roommate and the roommate's boyfriend (a FSU football palyer) claiming they were present the night the vic claimed assault and it was consensual.  As an aside TPD knew if they contacted Winston directly he (and any other FSU football player) would have told the LEOs to contact the lawyer.

    At this point Jan/Feb (unclear timeline) TPD was faced with a vic who first provided a description of a perp that did not match Winston and then recanted and IDed Winston.  Winston's lawyer then provided statements that the vic knew Winston and there were pix of her with Winston before and after the alleged assault.  When confronted with the possibility that she might have known Winston before claiming assault and her initial report was inconsistent she stopped cooperating, or perhaps agreed to drop the charges sans legal advice.  This is when the case was  deemed inactive.  The girl was the one who changed her story, not Winston.  Winston also has an experienced legal team, especially in criminal law while the vic has a friend of the family PI lawyer who seems to be in over her head.

    True I don't know what will happen.  But I do know that, as you point, there is not much other than the vic's calim to support charging.  The defense can point to the vic's roommate and her boyfriend disputing the charge.  Combined with the probability that at least one FSU football fan will be on the jury and hang it at best I doubt a guilty verdict is likely.

    Meggs is a wild card.  He charged Travis Johonson (first round draft choice who played six years in the NFL) with rape on very thin evidence and an all female jury voted not guilty in less than 30 minutes.  Meggs is use to community pressure.  He is currently trying to prohibit sales of alcohol in Leon county because people get drunk at FSU football games.  I submit this will make not just FSU football fans mad, but every beer drinker in the county as well, even if they are UF football fans like BTD.

    Meggs is not running for reelection.

    Time to make some popcorn and sit back and watch.


    One more thing (none / 0) (#44)
    by ragebot on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:02:16 AM EST
    The saddest aspect of this whole mess is that the vic (in the truest sense of the word) has now been outed a few days ago.  While her facebook and twitter accounts have been taken down we all know nothing on the internet goes away.  She has been subjected vile posts, photoshopped images, and worse.

    From what I know this girl, and several other girls in her sorority, were playing a game of chasing FSU football players and boasting about it on the internet.  If the statements from her roommate and roommate's boyfriend (more accurately ex-roommate) she became upset when Winston had sex with her and then told her that his real girlfriend was flying in for the weekend and she should lay low for awhile.

    Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.


    Sorry, BTD: Georgia Southern 27, Florida 20. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 05:59:17 PM EST
    While most of the SEC made the most of their annual November serving of FCS/D-1AA cupcakes, the Gators choked on theirs in a debacle at The Swamp, giving up 429 yards on the ground to the Eagles, who also pocketed a cool $550,000 in small, non-denomination bills as their cupcake fee.

    This embarrassing home loss clinches Florida its first losing season in 21 years. But more importantly to Gator Nation, does it also cost Coach Will Muschamp his job?

    Tension is high and hot (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 07:01:48 PM EST
    In Bama.  Iron bowl next weekend.  May the force be with Auburn, and pound the Crimson Tide into a rose colored trickle.

    A team that has lost 6 in a row can't choke (none / 0) (#39)
    by CoralGables on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 01:13:37 AM EST
    They can only stink.

    UF has been hit with injuries (none / 0) (#45)
    by ragebot on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:07:15 AM EST
    but just saying they don't have the Jimmies and Joes ignores the fact that they don't have the Xs and Os as well.  The next game is against FSU who put up 80 (with the first string on the bench after one series in the second half) yesterday.

    Most likely this one will be off the books.  I doubt BTD will  try and guess the spread.

    I still have to wonder why UF did not make more of an effort to keep Urban.


    UCLA vs. ASU heating up late (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 08:59:28 PM EST
    ASU had a big halftime lead, now it's down to five, 38-33, with about 7 minutes left in the game, with UCLA driving and in ASU territory. Go Bruins!!

    Final: Arizone State 38, UCLA 33. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 09:51:28 PM EST
    The Sun Devils clinched the Pac-12 South title and a return date with Stanford. If they beat instate arch-rival Arizona next week, the Pac-12 championship game will be held in Tempe.

    Killjoy (none / 0) (#52)
    by Dadler on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 05:53:26 PM EST

    John Kerry, SoS (none / 0) (#30)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 23, 2013 at 09:15:09 PM EST

    John Kerry's relentless diplomacy has the potential to make him the most consequential SoS since George Marshall.

    Our foreign policy in the middle east and the rest of the world (particularly in Asia) is changing extremely rapidly and the SoS is an experienced hand. Wishing him good luck and a future Nobel Peace Prize.

    The University of Miami (none / 0) (#46)
    by CoralGables on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 10:12:05 AM EST
    and their move from the Orange Bowl to Joe Robbie Stadium/Pro Player Park/Pro Player Stadium/Dolphin Stadium/Dolphins Stadium/Land Shark Stadium/Sun Life Stadium may have reached its low point yesterday.

    Despite being 8-3, this is a shot of the crowd for the opening kickoff of yesterday's game.

    I can remember (none / 0) (#48)
    by ragebot on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 11:02:39 AM EST
    reading about the NY Jets playing in front of a few good friends at the Polo Grounds.