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Wednesday Open Thread

Our last open thread is full, so here's a new one. All topics welcome.

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    The Darren Wilson story (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 06:41:19 AM EST
    Darren Wilson's Story  

    Told of Wilson's version of events, Brown family lawyer Anthony Gray scoffed, calling it "absurd from beginning to end" and a "concocted version of events that nobody supports," referring to other public witness statements.

    Gray said the version of Dorian Johnson, who was with Brown, was more plausible.

    He said that the only important part of the story was the final few shots fired and that Wilson had to be justified in taking every shot.

    "This story just doesn't even make good nonsense."

    Of course he said that. (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 07:40:17 AM EST
    More (none / 0) (#10)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:04:41 AM EST
    Here

    But a St. Louis Post-Dispatch analysis of Brown's official county autopsy it has obtained suggests the teenager may not have had his hands raised after all. Experts told the newspaper Brown was shot Aug. 9., at close range -- and may have been reaching for Wilson's weapon. The autopsy found material "consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm" in a wound on Brown's thumb. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said this "supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound."

    Melinek, who was not involved in the investigation, said the autopsy did not support those who claim Brown was attempting to flee or surrender.

    "If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he's going for the officer's gun," she said.

    SNIP

    The source who spoke to the newspaper said Wilson told investigators he did indeed get out and chase Brown before Brown rushed him.

    The Post-Dispatch wrote:

    Wilson said he had yelled for Brown to stop, then fired, the source said. Brown flinched as if he was hit, and Wilson said he had stopped shooting. Brown continued running toward him, and Wilson said he had fired several more shots. The source said that Wilson had recalled that Brown's head was down when the last shot hit him there.

    And as always, we don't really know what ANY witness will say if they ever get under oath.  It's one thing to talk to a TV camera, and it's quite another thing to be under oath and cross-examined.

    Parent

    Perhaps the Post Dispatch will publish the (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:29:45 AM EST
    autopsy report. That's news.  

    Parent
    The people quoted in the paper are also (none / 0) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:26:27 AM EST
    not under oath. Nor will a defense team for Michael Brown be able to disbute their statements since no trial will occur. Brown is being tried and convicted by these staged leaks and he can't present his account of what happened since he is dead.

    BTW, do you want to retract your statement that Wilson will definitely be indicted and be tried to appease the AA community.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:34:56 AM EST
    the people quoted in the paper are also not under oath.  Kind of my point.  But there is forensic evidence.  

    And yes, I think he will still be indicted.  I think, like many, the GJ will still find there's enough contradictory statements that it should be sent to a jury (trier of fact) to decide.

    Nor will a defense team for Michael Brown be able to disbute their statements since no trial will occur. Brown is being tried and convicted by these staged leaks and he can't present his account of what happened since he is dead.

    Michael Brown's "defense team" is the state of Missouri - not his mouthpieces running around trying to find every camera they can.

    Parent

    That is really, really funny (none / 0) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:48:14 AM EST
    that you believe for even one moment that the State of Missouri is Brown's defense team. The State of Missouri punted on interfering with McCulloch. The State of Missouri decided that it wanted no part of being Brown's "defense team." That is a verifiable fact.

    The St. Louis County's prosecutor's office is Wilson's defense team and these leaks are part of his defense.

    Get  back to me when Wilson is indicted.

    Here is my prediction:

    A no bill will be handed down by the GJ soon after the November election.  Just one more piece of McCulloch manipulating the process.

    Parent

    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#20)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:56:54 AM EST
    that science may not support what you think you know about this case.

    But I still see a GJ, made up of people who are quite aware of what the societal impacts would be of a no-bill, indicting Wilson and making this go to a jury.  Which I think it should, by the way.

    Parent

    I thought Obama/Holder dispatched (none / 0) (#21)
    by leftwig on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:00:08 AM EST
    the Feds almost immediately to perform a parallel investigation?  Are you suggesting they are following McCulloch's "orders" as well?

    Parent
    Federal charges (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:03:07 AM EST
    are much more difficult to bring.

    Parent
    First (none / 0) (#17)
    by Palli on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:52:57 AM EST
    the DoJ Autopsy has not been leaked.

    The Euro American power structure of Missouri thinks it is going to control the African American community. No need or desire to appease. Nixon's Ferguson Project won't talk about African American's fear of law enforcement: that fear is the intent, the given.

    Parent

    I really think (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:18:34 AM EST
    a tipping point is coming.  I don't know if it will be this event that brings it but IMO it's coming.  Michael Brown, Trevon Martin, John Crawford, Eric Garner, killed without consequences.  And those are just the recent ones who's name I remember.  All over the country republicans are trying to take away the right to vote for these same communities.

    There is a tipping point coming.  It won't be pretty.

    Parent

    I agree. (none / 0) (#28)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:40:01 AM EST
    I'm surprised there haven't been more Fergusons (the protests in the streets) already. But then, most Americans are gutless sheep who leave in a state on constant fear. Watching local news will have you convinced there's a boogeyman around every corner, especially with Halloween coming.

    Of course, this is a country where the police (or current armed occupier/thugs) will not hesitate to kill, beat and maim the citizens they are supposedly paid to protect. It's a useful policy for making sure the minions stay in line.

    Parent

    Reaching (none / 0) (#14)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:38:55 AM EST
    Experts told the newspaper Brown was shot Aug. 9., at close range -- and may have been reaching for Wilson's weapon.

    "reaching"??? just reaching???

    Experts??? or just one expert???

    According to Wilson's StL story today Brown wasn't just reaching for the gun but Brown's hands were all over that gun. So then why is his fingerprint DNA not all over that gun but just his blood???

    The autopsy found material "consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm" in a wound on Brown's thumb.

    Why just in the wound? Why not all over that hand? There should be GSR all over his hand and yet Dr Baden said there wasn't any -- on his hand or any of his skin.

    Did the County ME wash it all off before she sent the body to Baden and fail to tell him???

    Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said this "supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound."

    And what does it say if there is no accompanying GSR on his hand???

    Melinek, who was not involved in the investigation, said the autopsy did not support those who claim Brown was attempting to flee or surrender.

    "If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he's going for the officer's gun," she said.>

    Really!!! What does the one have to do with the other??? What does reaching for the gun in the car have to do with what happened 125 feet away and 30 seconds later. She clearly is confusing the two events -- what happened in the car with what happened on the street.

    With all the money the police union has and she is the best they could do??? Well in her defense she didn't have much to work with.

    Parent

    I agree that the newest reports (none / 0) (#23)
    by leftwig on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:06:57 AM EST
    don't answer all the questions and I'm sure there will be other experts to weigh in once the full autopsy reports are released, but they do reduce DJ's credibility.  He said he was standing right beside Brown (within an arms length of both of them) as Wilson fired hitting Brown in the right side chest or arm and could see the blood pooling on Browns shirt instantly.  Doesn't seem to jive with hearing that Brown was shot in the thumb.

    Parent
    The thumb theory (none / 0) (#29)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:43:10 AM EST
    And then there is this that disagrees with the thumb theory:

    The close range shot

    Forensic experts interviewed by the newspaper said the material indicated Brown's hand was close to officer Darren Wilson's weapon when Brown was shot Aug. 9.

    However, the autopsy noted there was no "powder stipple," or residue often left by guns fired at close range.

    The county autopsy largely squared with a private one requested by the Brown family as far as the number and location of his wounds.

    But the private report concluded none of the wounds were likely made at close range due to a lack of gunpowder on the body.

    [So according to this, his hand was close to the gun in the car but probably not shot by the gun at that point. He could have been shot in the thumb as he was running away because in today's StL Today article Wilson reportedly says that when Brown turned around he was holding onto his shirt with his hand. It could have been at that point that the gunshot material on his shirt was transferred to the wound on his hand -- not back at the SUV]

    Parent

    The ME (none / 0) (#32)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:50:30 AM EST
    said this:

    The paper said that the autopsy reported found no "stippling," powder burns indicative of a shot fired at short range. But it quoted Graham saying that "Sometimes when it's really close, such as within an inch or so, there is no stipple, just smoke." It also said that tissue from the thumb wound showed foreign matter "consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm."


    Parent
    foreign matter in the thumb wound (none / 0) (#34)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 10:10:47 AM EST
    From StL Today article

    "Wilson said Brown had not had his hands up; his left hand was slightly out, fingers pointing down. His right hand was grasping his shirt.

    If he was shot in the shoulder through his shirt at the car transferring GSR to his shirt, then shot in the thumb while running away, grabbing his shirt after turning around, then the foreign matter from the shot in the shoulder on his shirt could have been transferred to the wound to his thumb at that point.

    Yes??? No???

    Parent

    All I can say is, "reaching for the gun" (none / 0) (#24)
    by Anne on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:11:07 AM EST
    can be taken two ways.  To a cop who is ultimately trying to defend his killing of an unarmed person, "reaching for the gun" is meant to connote aggression and intent to harm the cop and provide justification for the cop to go after the citizen.  

    To the young person who had been grabbed around the neck and pulled into the window opening of the vehicle, "reaching for the gun" is about believing he was about to be shot and trying to stop it from happening.

    If I was on a GJ and could ask Wilson questions, I'd want to know why, at seemingly every point at which Wilson had to make a decision, he always chose the option least likely to de-escalate and calm the situation.  Since it now seems to be true that Brown's upper body was in the vehicle, those who want to believe Brown forced himself into that position need to ask why Wilson, whose vehicle was running, didn't just shove him out of the way, hit the gas and remove himself from danger.

    Sadly, that is about the third point in this drama where Wilson's choice made no sense, and in the totality of this series of events, the explanations of those defending him strain the ability of reasonable people to comprehend.

    Parent

    Those are good questions (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:46:23 AM EST
    However, I would suggest that while your questions arise through the lens of time and distance, it may be difficult to understand the mentality in the immediate seconds of a chaotic situation.  

    I'm still not sure how anyone "grabs" and "pulls in" a very large man through a car window -   even someone as large as Darren Wilson.  Even if Wilson pulled up right next to Johnson and Brown, he would have to be at least a rearview mirror length away from Brown. And unless he has arms like Stretch Armstrong, I just don't see him being able to "grab" and "pull" Brown in the car unless Brown himself stuck his head in the window. That part of the story makes no sense to me. I would like to see anyone here try and grab and pull someone of similar size through their car window.  You couldn't do it.

    Parent

    In regards to this quote (none / 0) (#36)
    by leftwig on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 10:26:56 AM EST
    "To the young person who had been grabbed around the neck and pulled into the window opening of the vehicle, "reaching for the gun" is about believing he was about to be shot and trying to stop it from happening."

    Did Brown have any injuries to his neck or throat area (I'd think the family autopsy would have pointed out any injuries to Brown)?  I would suspect if a big guy like Wilson was grabbing his neck and a big guy like Brown was resisting that there would be some sort of indication that Wilson had somehow grabbed Brown by the neck.  I will also add that its likely a physical impossibility that someone sitting in an SUV could grab a 6'4", 300 lb man around the neck and pull them through the window.  IF Browns body was inside that window, its because Brown wanted it to be there.  I do agree that there are multiple possibilities for Brown having the GS wound to the hand.  IF he was outside the SUV when the shot occurred, it could be that it was put up in defense.  IF he was inside the SUV involved in a struggle with Wilson, then its because he wanted to be in that vehicle and makes it much more likley his action to go for the gun was an offensive move.

    "If I was on a GJ and could ask Wilson questions, I'd want to know why, at seemingly every point at which Wilson had to make a decision, he always chose the option least likely to de-escalate and calm the situation. "

    This is irrelevant as long as the officer was acting within the law, but if the recent article is accurate, I think your answers can be found within.  Wilson suspected them of the SA robbery (robbery involving physical confrontation), his job is to confront, contain and potentially arrest the two individuals.  Wilson says he put his SUV in park and when he tried to get out of the car, he was shoved back in and attacked.  Maybe he's lying but if that occurred, I am not sure what else he could do at that point.  Also, its an officers job not only to protect himself but to protect others.  He says he had suspicion that these two were involved in a SA robbery.  IF he was attacked, those suspicions were confirmed (anyone willing to attack a PO is clearly a threat to society) and its his job and responsibility to try and stop them, not just run away.  

    Parent

    And in other news of the WS and opera (!), (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 12:22:18 AM EST
    mezzo soprano Joyce di Donato, who grew up in Kansas City, is left off the Royals (actually the MLB's) WS national anthem singers roster.

    NYT

    Clayton police have paranormal powers (none / 0) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 12:29:24 AM EST
    They can sense that a crime will be committed and arrest the perp before they actually do anything illegal.

    Clayton police used their extrasensory powers when arresting  activist Elizabeth Vega.

    "Clayton Police Chief Kevin Murphy said the demonstrator was charged with assault because police sensed the pumpkin was about to be lobbed in the `direction of officers arresting another person,'" the Post-Dispatch reported.

    Link


    Keystone Cops (none / 0) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 12:33:33 AM EST
    look better all the time.

    Parent
    Link isn't working on my mini. (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 12:37:10 AM EST
    Maybe Clayton PD is proactive b/c of the East coast pumpkin festival riot?  [snk.]

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#6)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 01:23:36 AM EST
    Thought I finally got a link right using my Ipad. Guess not.

    Yes this protest was to highlight comparison.

    At one point in the evening, over 4,000 people, mostly white male college students, were gathered in the community of 23,000. The students were causing chaos throughout the evening, as liquor bottles were thrown, stores were broken into and cars were tipped over. Bonfires were set throughout the town's streets. Light posts and signs were torn out of the ground. Town residents reported that most in the crowd were loud, obnoxious and drunk. At least 20 people were taken to area hospitals for various injuries, mostly from thrown bottles. This is also not a new thing for Keene. Last year, 140 arrests were made at the pumpkin fest.

    Eventually, after copious amounts of property damage had been done by the out-of-control students, riot police were called into the scene to disperse the crowd. People in the crowd apparently started throwing beer bottles at the police and shouted obscenities. Tear gas was shot into the crowd and pepper spray was used on individuals who allegedly confronted police in a physical manner. One 18-year-old student told the local paper Saturday night that it was a "blast to do things you aren't supposed to be doing." He also suggested that the students were revolting from the cops.

    Much like with riots in the aftermath of sporting events, this is going to be seen as kids just blowing off steam, having a little too much fun and just taking things a bit too far. Now, compare this to the coverage that we've seen by the mainstream media in regards to protests in Ferguson. link



    Parent
    This, along with the Palin drunken brawl (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 07:35:57 AM EST

    demonstrates that there are serious problems in the White community that have yet to be addressed by such White leaders as Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, or Gretchen Carlson.  

    It's getting to the point where some of my Chinese cousins cross to the other side of the street who they see a young white man walking down the street.  

    The White community must step up and address the problems of family dysfunction and violence that havve plagued it for so long since they came to this country.

    Parent

    Corrected Link (none / 0) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 01:15:46 AM EST
    Bananna Nut Bread (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:47:34 AM EST
    i am doing this today.  I wanted to share this because as I mentioned recently I lost a considerable chunk of pounds recently. Bit over 30 and I have kept it off.   I could not have lost it or kept it off without this stuff.  
    I have a serious sweet tooth.  SERIOUS.  I know from long experience that if I don't satisfy it with good things I WILL satisfy it with bad things.  So at the start I made two decisions, stop buying junk and always have healthy options around.  I got this recipe from my sister and worked it.
    I will list the original version and then what I turned it into after much experimentation.

    3 bananas
    4 oz Apple sauce (that is the size of one of those individual serving things sold in 6 or 8 pacs in the store)
    2 eggs
    2 Cups flour
    1 Cup sugar
    1 t-spoon each vanilla, baking soda and baking powder
    1/2 cup nuts
    1/2 cup of raisins

    Stir it up put it in a loaf pan.  350 for 50-60 minutes.

    Ok
    I liked this but I wanted more "goodies" so I started trying adding more nuts and other things.  I tried cranberries, chopped dried apricots, dates, and semi chocolate chips.  I also thought it was a bit dry.  I also realized that with a lot more goodies, two or three times what is called for, I could drop most or even all the sugar and end up with a tasty treat with no fat and little or no sugar.
    This is my current version-

    4 bananas
    2 eggs
    Two or three 4 oz containers of Appel sauce
    1/4 cup of sugar (or to taste)
    1 1/2 t-spoon vanilla, baking powder, baking soda
    1 cup flour  (may need to be adjusted depending on Apple sauce-I like it moist)
    1 oz poppy seeds. (That's a small container.  They sell them in my market for a dollar.) added to the mix and close to another oz sprinkled on top once it's in the pans and used to coat the inside of the sprayed pans before you pour it it.  (I like poppy seeds.)
    1 cup nuts.  I mostly use sliced or slivered almonds.  But anything works.
    2 cups (small semi sweet chocolate chips)

    That fills two 8 inch loaf pans.

    I think I may add cranberries today.
    Happy wed!

    Sounds yummy, thanks for sharing! (none / 0) (#18)
    by Angel on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:53:45 AM EST
    Thanks (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:27:20 AM EST
    hope others like it as much as I do

    Btw
    The flour in the last version should have been a bit more.  But I suspect most here will know how much to add (I add the flour last) to get to the right consistency.

    Parent

    On the Three high school girls (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 08:55:41 AM EST
    from Colorado who ran off to join ISIS, you know, I'm sorry but if you are an american teenager with enough money to buy a ticket to Istanbul and you are dumb enough to do this,
    GO FOR IT.  
    And have fun.

    The 1st amendment is a good thing (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:37:56 AM EST
    it's a good thing
    it's a good thing
    it's a good thing
    Etc

    Last week on his talk radio program, Michael Savage got into an argument with a caller over whether California lawmakers should rename a San Francisco tunnel in honor of Robin Williams. The caller, who said he was a veteran suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), defended the move, while Savage objected to the plan, claiming that it would promote suicide.

    After a lengthy argument, Savage hung up on the caller and proceeded to attack him. "I am so sick and tired with everyone with their complaints about PTSD, depression. Everyone wants their hand held and a check, a government check. What, are you the only generation that had PTSD? The only generation that's depressed?"

    He then blamed America's problems on those who "cry like a little baby" over depression: "If the whole nation is told, `boo-hoo-hoo, come and get a medication, come and get treatment, talk about mental illness,' you know what you wind up with? You wind up with Obama in the White House and lawyers in every phase of the government, that's what you wind up with. It's a weak, sick nation. A weak, sick, broken nation."

    Savage continued that veterans with PTSD are a "bunch of losers" and recommended that they be more like Michael Savage.

    "You need men like me to save the country," he said. "You need men to stand up and say stop crying like a baby over everything." He continued that "men are so weak and so narcissistic" that it is "no wonder ISIS can defeat our military."



    Dead teenagers [can] tell no stories (none / 0) (#30)
    by Palli on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 09:44:45 AM EST
    Michael Brown could have been pushing the gun away.
    But why does it even matter?  
    Wilson decided to shoot Michael to death. And he did.

    Capt... (none / 0) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    From last thread about Dish Network.

    DirecTV, which a year or two ago, was locked in battle with several stations that I consider my staples.  So much so that I watched them on my desktop that I connected to my TV, which totally sucked.

    I called to voice my opinion and let them know that I would break my contract if they did.  Apparently that is not how the TV business works, I was told I am locked in regardless.  Not sure what I would have done, but I sure as hell wouldn't have paid for a service that didn't provide the product I signed up for.

    It's not right they think they can lock me in and then deliver a different set of goods.  Thankfully they got it straightened out and actually gave me some money off my next bill for the non-sense.

    I would suggest calling them, maybe, like in my case, those irate calls help sway whatever deal they made.  Maybe not, but I felt a whole lot better letting them know and ended up with a little cha-ching in my pocket for my troubles.

    FYI, I believe it's the same Turner channels you are having issues with, but for me it was TNT and TBS.

    Yep (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 22, 2014 at 10:11:36 AM EST
    this is not the first time.  Dish recently had a dust up that left them without AMC or FX. Both very popular channels.   The channels fought back by adding the "not available on DISH" tagline to all adds for things like The Walkinf Dead.  It didn't last long.  I suspect this won't either.  
    I would bet panties are twisted across the nation as people jones for CNN.  I am glad CNN is included because it will cause more of a stink that probably any of the others.
    Yep this happens from time to time and there isn't much you can do but call and vent.  I haven't even bothered to do that so far.
    I am POed about missing all the old B&W horror movies but actually I have most of them on DVD.

    Parent