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The Mistake

Mitt Romney's choice of Paul Ryan provides many facets of analysis. Does this reflect the final step of extreme right wing domination of the GOP? Would Romney's decisions as President be subject to veto by the most radical element of the conservative movement? Would this just the first of many instance where, as Grover Norquist put is, Romney would just be an "autopen" for extreme right wing policies?

These are obviously important questions, but they all stem from an underlying assumption -- that the choice of Paul Ryan as the GOP's VP candidate harms Romney's chances of winning in November. I share this view. the main reason is Florida, a must win state for Romney. I can imagine victorious electoral maps for Romney where he loses Wisconsin or Iowa or Pennsylvania. I don;t see a winning Romney map where he loses Florida.

And the Ryan choice puts Romney's chances of winning Florida in extreme jeopardy. I'll explain why I think so on the flip.

Before moving to the Florida question, let's first consider Romney's options. The most talked about names were Tim Pawlenty, Rob Portman and Ryan. Pawlenty would have been the non-event choice, having virtually no impact whatsoever on the race. A nonentity. But nonentities do no harm. A Presidential candidate confident that the trajectory of the race would lead to victory would most likely choose this type of candidate.

Did Romney conclude he required a "game changer," much as McCain did when he rolled the dice and chose Sarah Palin? I think we can assume he did. And that calculus seems not only reasonable, but strongly indicated.

So, let's assume an outside the box pick was in order for Romney. The question then would be who? Ryan certainly was an impactful choice, and this choice has driven the news cycle or the past 4 days and almost certainly will to the Republican convention.

The question then is whether this impact helps or hurts Romney's campaign? On the plus side, it has largely stopped the grumbling and complaints from the extreme right wing. Their enthusiasm has been recharged. there is an argument to be made that the Ryan choice helps Romney in Wisconsin to some small degree (enough to tip the state? Does not seem likely.) But what of the other dynamics of the race?

Paul Ryan's name is most associated with his budget plan, one of the most radical policy proposals we have ever seen from a major party in modern times. The 2010 version of the Ryan plan called for the elimination of the capital gains tax in its entirety. The result of such a policy would be that people like Mitt Romney would pay virtually no income taxes at all. This would certainly not help Romney's current struggle regarding his tax returns and the ongoing Democratic argument that Romney is the candidate for the rich who would enact policies that eviscerate government programs aimed at helping ordinary Americans in order to give even more to the rich. Let's mark this one down in the "not good for Romney" column.

Now about Florida. The Ryan choice is exceedingly bad for Romney's chances in Florida (because of his proposals to end Medicare as we know it and his championing of Bush's plans to privatize Social Security. Republicans, always vulnerable on Medicare and Social Security, are even more toxic on these issues when Ryan is involved), and thus threatens the entire Romney campaign. Romney simply can't win the election without Florida. I defy anyone to put together a plausible map for Romney winning the Presidency without Florida.

Thus, any decision Romney was to make on the VP choice should have adhered, first and foremost, to the following criteria: it could not hurt his chances in Florida. Romney made the one choice that did.

But Romney had to go long you might respond. What could he do? He needed to shake up the race. Well, maybe. But even if we assume this is true, there were other ways to "shake up the race" that did not hurt him in Florida. In fact, there was a choice that was "bold" and also had the virtue of likely helping Romney's chances in Florida -- Marco Rubio.

Was there a great deal of risk in choosing Rubio? Certainly, but there was no certainty that a Rubio choice would hurt Romney in Florida. There is with Paul Ryan, who is so toxic on Florida that he will not see the state except for the Republican convention.

Why not Rubio? I think Sarah Palin has a lot to do with that. To this day, the choice of Sarah Palin hangs over John McCain and the Republican Party. Is Rubio a more polished politician than Palin? Of course he is. But he is a first term Senator with no national political experience. Ryan has played in that league as chairman of the House Budget Committee. Ryan has also been adept at gulling the Beltway.

But Ryan's toxicity in Florida trumps all of these political attributes. He had a disqualifying trait - he damaged Romney's chances in Florida. He could not be selected by Romney.

And yet he was. I think Romney has done serious damage to his chances of winning the Presidency by choosing Paul Ryan as his running mate.

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    I don't think Rubio would have been risky (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 09:18:39 PM EST
    Yes, there's the phony story about when his parents arrived from Cuba, but other than that not much to hang on him. He's a reliable conservative up and comer, he's good looking, Jeb Bush at least pretends to give him major props, and he could smooth talk his home staters, even some of the seniors.

    Romney made a panicked choice. But will Obama's campaign be able to lay off the wonkiness and figure out messaging they can stick with until November? That, to me, is the linchpin.

    Rubio has a few more problems ... (none / 0) (#3)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 09:49:32 PM EST
    ... than the story about parents who emigrated from Castro's Cuba three years before Castro ever took power. He has a documented history of trouble paying his debts, for one, and then there's the little matter of running up thousands of dollars in personal expenses on a Florida GOP credit card while he served as chair of the state Republican Party.

    It was probably best that Romney didn't go there. One guy on the ticket with shady deals is enough.

    Parent

    Now I remember the credit card problem (none / 0) (#10)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 10:53:53 PM EST
    but I didn't know about the friend-foreclosure issue. Either one would be enough to sink a Dem candidate, but I'm afraid when it comes to telegenic Republicans, the media usually gives them a pass. Just look at how the newsy talking heads are slobbering all over Ryan. It seems the only stuff they ever really go after GOPers for is when it's one of those dead girl/live boy situations...

    Parent
    I expect to see all kinds of ads with (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 11:24:29 PM EST
    alleged Democrats praising Ryan for his stellar thinking, his brave and bold budget and his courageous plans to save Medicare and Social Security.

    Ron Wyden is already on the ropes trying to explain that he does not support Romney/Ryan or anything about R/R. Wyden's partnering with Ryan on a "saving Medicare" plan was foolish and petulant.  Ron brought this on himself and well . . . the ads just write themselves.

    And today I saw this video from about a year ago of Erskine Bowles, Obama's co-Catfood Commission chair and rumored next Sec. of Treas. if Obama wins. Watch it if you have a strong stomach and are not prone to throwing things. Bowles cannot say enough good things about Ryan and his brilliant budget. According to Bowles, Obama's budget just could not compare.

    It's Obama's own fault for taking such a "please be my friend" stance with those f@cking Republicans and faux-Democrats. He has emboldened the very worst the party has to offer.

    I'd like to think that the release of the Bowles video, which is getting a lot of play on Fox and other rightwing outlets, would push Obama to ditch these clowns and their "sacrifices must be made" ethos and start working with some real Dems.

    I am not holding my breath.

    Except, (5.00 / 8) (#12)
    by Makarov on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:02:08 AM EST
    Obama likely believes 'sacrifices must be made'. Who brought up 'Social Security is in crisis' during the '08 Dem primary? Obama did. Who moved the national discussion from "holy shit there's many millions of unemployed people and factories standing empty" to "the deficit is the biggest problem we face"? Obama did. Who personally selected and appointed Bowles and Simpson to the deficit commission in the first place, and failed to slap them down when they signaled they were going after Social Security (which has nothing to do with the deficit)? Obama.

    Whose Treasury Secretary, with $50B and no limitations on how to spend it, designed a program ostensibly to help underwater homeowners that was really a way for banks to siphon more $ from their cash strapped pockets and foreclosing on them whenever the bank decided it suited them? Obama's.

    How long are we going to continue the charade that Obama is any different from the people he chooses to take advice from and run the government? It's not like any of these people pulled a Dick Morris.

    Parent

    and its exactly this type of stuff (none / 0) (#17)
    by Left of the Left on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 03:20:53 AM EST
    which makes me think the country may be more welcoming of Ryans budget than dems think.

    Parent
    Seriously (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 08:37:54 AM EST
    That's your conclusion?  Both parties are in the pockets of the Deep Pockets and the country will welcome the demise of the safety net when they really need it?

    Oy.

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 01:37:56 AM EST
    would like
    Obama to ditch these clowns and their "sacrifices must be made" ethos and start working with some real Dems.

    One of Ryan's top contributors is Goldman Sachs.
    One of Obama's top contributors is Goldman Sachs.

    They're all in the same clown car.

    Parent

    This is why I find it disturbing, to (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 06:31:04 AM EST
    say the least, that it is Bowles whose name is being bandied about to replace Geithner if Obama is re-elected.

    I think that, either way, whichever party wins the WH in November, we are headed in the same direction.  Democrats may be taking the scenic route, may not be driving in the fast lane, but Obama's made no secret that he wants that Grand Bargain.

    Because it isn't even so much about "please be my friend," it's about - at least in my opinion - "these are things Obama actually believes in."  Listen for Obama to talk about how he agrees that the safety net programs are in trouble, and the "battle" is over competing visions for how to fix them.

    I am imagining - no, fearing - an Erskine Bowles-led Treasury, and I won't be at all surprised if Obama names Ryan to head up Catfood 3.0; no one's going to be laughing about Romney/Ryan then, are they?

    Ryan may have been a bad choice for Romney in terms of helping Romney win the WH, but the fact that Ryan's presence in this campaign means we're going to hear a lot of talk about the safety net programs is going to be the best thing that ever happened to the conservative vision for smaller government serving fewer people.  With Obama on the other side, not setting the argument, not planting his stake anywhere even remotely left, he will be perfectly positioned in a second term to accomplish a lot of what conservatives like Ryan want to do.

    If nothing else, Romney's pick of Ryan keeps this whole country moving to the right; they won't win, but in the end, neither will we, and neither will those coming behind us.

    Parent

    I think Romney (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:54:09 AM EST
    simply reverted to his self-image as a CEO and picked Ryan the way a CEO would chose some up-and-comer young guy for his energy and his idea generation, whether his resume fit the bill or not.

    There was a genuine electoral/political rationale for Palin, even though it didn't work out because of lousy vetting, but zippo for Ryan other than Romney's rather weird self-image.

    What about Florida voter suppression? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by unitron on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 02:25:28 AM EST
    Do they think they can disqualify enough people down there to overcome the retirees afraid of what Ryan would do to SS and Medicare, or do they just figure on being able to BS them into voting against their own interests, as they've done with other groups in other places?

    I can see it now. (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by pcpablo on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 08:14:25 AM EST
    Cue the ominous music..." He claimes the cuts to Medicare won't touch those now over 55, but can we trust him once he is elected"?

    Parent
    How confident (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Left of the Left on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 03:25:29 AM EST
    are we that seniors and soon to be seniors will not care that the Ryan plan changes nothing for them? If they're scared enough about the deficit nightmare both sides have scared up, and they can be convinced their benefits will be untouched, how much of a liability would Ryan be?

    Seniors... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Thanin on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 04:07:23 AM EST
    in regards to the deficit, have the least to worry about.  So if we're speculating as to which they'll be more concerned about, deficits or Medicare/social security, it's always going to be the latter.  And seniors are Always worried that their benefits will be touched, as they should be.

    Parent
    Give the seniors at least a little bit of credit (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by ruffian on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:32:03 AM EST
    for caring about their children (who may not be all that much younger than them) and their grandchildren's future retirement and health care. Saying that they won't care as long as they've got theirs is like saying I don't care about education because I am not in school and have no kids, or prison reform because I am not in prison, and on and on.

    Plus, seniors more than anyone know how important Medicare and SS are.

    Parent

    I would like to agree with you, but (none / 0) (#59)
    by womanwarrior on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 09:38:00 PM EST
    I have heard lots of people who don't have kids in public school say that, and people whose children are grown complaining about the raised real estate taxes to rebuild the school when they have no kids there.  

    I have to hope that seniors will not fall for this, but since I have a 68 year old sister who tells me that she wishes she did not have to take social security and medicare, and she is a retired doctor. Listens to nothing but Fox news.  Maybe you are right because so many of Florida's seniors are Jewish and they were raised with better values to care for other humans and their descendants, I don't know, you could be right. Of course, my sister and I were raised by the same parents, and our values are pretty darn different.

    Parent

    I know what you mean (none / 0) (#63)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 05:46:09 AM EST
    I posted the other day about the same thing. I guess I hope I am right too.

    Parent
    I think most people do care about (none / 0) (#64)
    by caseyOR on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 07:08:33 AM EST
    the next generation. Sure, there are people who are just plain selfish, or cannot see beyond their own selves. Most people are not like that, though.

    Poll after poll has shown that the majority of Americans do not support cuts to Medicare or Social Security or even Medicaid. They do support raising taxes on the wealthy and cuts to Defense spending.

    Anyone who has any doubts about who's opinion the politicians care about only has to look at the discussion about deficit reduction and who is insisting on cuts to SS and Medicare and who is not. It seems obvious that politicians, including Romney and Obama, couldn't care less what the American people want.

    Parent

    David Stockman, Ronald Reagan's (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:45:58 AM EST
    director of the Office of Management and Budget, drives a Ryan budget demolition derby in his op-ed in the NYT (8/14). The title "Paul Ryan's Fairy-Tale Budget Plan" is about the nicest and most complimentary part.

    As for that lullaby being played for Florida and other  seniors that they have no worries about the deconstruction of Medicare since it does not kick-in for ten years, Stockman says this:  "..But the greater hypocrisy is his phony "plan" to solve the entitlements mess by deferring changes to social insurance by at least a decade."   A critique that suggests the Ryan coupon clipping program implementation may be accelerated given  half a chance.  

    In any event, if Medicare is killed in accord with  the Ryan plan, the remaining Medicare  will be on life-support during the  phase-out period.    

    Stockman concludes his analysis with "The Ryan Plan boils down to a fetish for cutting the top marginal income-tax rate for "job creators"--i.e., the super wealthy-to 25 percent and paying for it with an as-yet-undisclosed plan to broaden the tax base.  Of the $1 trillion in so called tax expenditures that the plan would attack, the vast majority wold come from slashing popular tax breaks for employer-provided insurance mortgage interest, 40l (k) accounts, state and local taxes, charitable giving and the like, not to mention low rates on capital gains and dividends....."   "In short, Mr. Ryan's plan is devoid of credible math or hard policy choices..."  

    If Stockman, who was "taken to the woodshed" by Reagan for telling the truth,  is even somewhat on track, I would not think Florida and other Medicare recipients should rest too easy on the promise of immunity from Ryan cuts for the promised ten years.

    In a campaign speech (May 30, 2012) (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 04:07:13 PM EST
    Romney associated himself (to great applause) with an idea that would change the Constitution so that in addition to the age of the president and citizenship (of course) of the president, the requirement should be added that the president must spend at least three years working in business before he could become president of the USA.

    If that amendment were to succeed, we may have a constitutional crisis in the event a Vice President Ryan were required  to take over.  The Speaker of the House would have to act as president for a period until Ryan satisfied the "Romney Amendment."

    Mitt Romney doesn't make mistakes. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 09:41:52 PM EST
    Therefore, if he loses, then this has to be someone else's fault. A good CEO never ventures takes risks without a good fall guy in reserve.

    Romney is not stupid. (none / 0) (#7)
    by observed on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 10:09:02 PM EST
    I think he could have chosen Ryan to spread the blame around, seeing that his chances of winning with any VP are extremely small.

    Parent
    What on earth does Romney care (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:48:30 AM EST
    about "spreading the blame around"?  If he loses, he has no future in politics, none whatsoever.  He's too old to give it another go in 2016, and he knows full well the party wouldn't have him. (If Fomney loses, as I think he will, Ryan is far and away the most likely 2016 nominee)

    Romney has no ideology himself, so he doesn't care what happens to the GOP post-Romney.  Romney only believes in Romney.

    And I think it's also a huge mistake to think that his chances are "extremely small."  George H.W. Bush was 19 points down at this point.

    Parent

    If (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 07:58:57 AM EST
    Romney goes down, Ryan is done nationally.

    Parent
    I hope (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Coral on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:59:48 AM EST
    Not even "DWTS"?? (none / 0) (#48)
    by observed on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:17:39 PM EST
    Bite your tongue! (none / 0) (#50)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:23:15 PM EST
    Miss Bristol is bad enough!  

    I have to say this, though.  He physically resembles a dear friend of mine that I haven't seen in quite a while.  It's very disconcerting seeing his picture all over the place.

    Parent

    Oh, no, not at all (none / 0) (#60)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:08:43 PM EST
    If Romney goes down, the GOP meme will be that the wrong guy was at the head of the ticket.  Nobody in politics blames the VP guy (er, as long as it's a somewhat respectable VP choice, not a Palin or a Quayle).

    The right wing adores Ryan, has never liked Romney.  Ryan has literally nothing to lose here-- unless he makes a fool of himself, which is always possible but not likely.

    Parent

    I mean from the standpoint (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:19:11 PM EST
    of how many VPs from a losing ticket have come back to win? Not too many that I can think of.

    Parent
    I cannot think of (none / 0) (#65)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 11:02:08 PM EST
    a VP candidate in my lifetime who had a whole movement behind him the way this one does, although I think if Bush W. had lost, Cheney could have had the nomination the next time if he wanted it.

    And weren't a lot of people here pushing for Hillary as VP nominee precisely because if he lost, she'd be perfectly positioned to run in 2012?

    Parent

    Well, Ryan is actually a complete (none / 0) (#62)
    by observed on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 03:39:56 AM EST
    idiot, and not very polished outside of speaking to the home team.
    I don't think he'll come out of this well at all.
    He'll be lucky to have a Palinesque future.

    Parent
    I suggested Romney thought (none / 0) (#4)
    by lilburro on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 09:55:46 PM EST
    Ryan could bring in more campaign cash than the others.  If he has any real electoral pluses, I don't know what they are.

    Romney is not cash poor (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 09:59:31 PM EST
    So that rationale seems wrongheaded to me.

    Parent
    But of all the VP candidates (none / 0) (#6)
    by lilburro on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 10:05:29 PM EST
    Ryan's potential payoff (in the eyes of wealthy donors) is the highest, maybe?

    I have no idea, it's just so flabbergasting, especially considering the energizing effect it has had for Dems (I'd like to see how much money they rake in over the next few weeks...).  Then again a truly clear rationale for choosing Sarah Palin never seemed to emerge.  Maybe we're all expecting too much.

    Parent

    I made (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 10:25:32 PM EST
    CST apologize for comment of calling Romney the GOP version of John Kerry. :). Even John Kerry did better than this. Man, they must be high fiving all over the White House these days.

    People keep talking about Reagan but you have to remember that Reagan picked a pro-choice candidate who was to the LEFT of him as a running mate. This reminds me of McGovern.

    I have not been able to discern if this election is more like '72 or '76 but picking Ryan makes it look like '72 with the Romney playing McGovern.

    Oh (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 13, 2012 at 10:27:35 PM EST
    and the Republicans (the few sane ones anyway) around here are saying exactly what voting bloc does Ryan add to the ticket? The pro-Ryan forces can't seem to come up with a name. Everybody who was going to vote for Romney is still going to vote for Romney  so all this does is cement Romney at 45% with the voters since it probably runs away the other 10%.

    I see the pick of Ryan as essential (none / 0) (#23)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 08:32:16 AM EST
    for Romney to win. Ryan definitely shores up the Conservative vote, but he is also a big policy guy and knows his stuff, which appeals to us Independents, who vote based on policy and the understanding of the consequences of it, not the party. I'm thinking the VP Debate is going to be just as popular as the Presidential debates and I see Ryan winning that hands down.

    "appeals to us Independents" (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 08:42:39 AM EST
    When were you elected spokesperson for "Independents?"

    I will say this, we will spend a lot of time talking about the substance of the Romney Ryan policy proposals.

    I think "Independents" may not like them as much as you seem to.

    Parent

    You're right. I am not a spokesperson. (none / 0) (#29)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:14:35 AM EST
    That should say, "Independents, like me."

    Parent
    As an Independent myself (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 08:43:45 AM EST
    speak for yourself.  I'm not going to be swayed by bad policy no matter how facile the presentation.

    Parent
    I think that you may be confusing (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 09:28:03 AM EST
    Independents with "Undecideds."

    Parent
    Not at all. I am not undecided. (none / 0) (#30)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:17:23 AM EST
    I am an Independent. And, while we may disagree with policy decisions, I think most of us will agree that policy makers are generally trying to do a good job. They just lack the understanding or vision to see the consequences of the policies they propose.

    Parent
    Lordy (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:45:06 AM EST
    I hate this "most of us agree" crap that some people like to bandy about.  Speak for yourself and stop trying to cloak yourself and your position with implied -- and largely imagined -- support.
    I think most of us will agree that policy makers are generally trying to do a good job
    But actually I do agree with this. Just not in the way that you intended.  It is my observation that a great number of "policy makers" are far more interested in doing a good job for their donors than they are in doing a good job for their constituents.

    If they lacked the appropriate kind of vision they would never have the funding.  So, I don't  believe for a second that most "policy makers" are lacking vision.  I believe that most "policy makers" lack a soul.

    Parent

    And you are entitled to think that, (none / 0) (#37)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:52:22 AM EST
    just as I am entitled to think the way I do, which, incidentally, is what I said. "I think ..." There is no implying any superiority by way of large support.

    By the way, should I assume that you do not vote? Or, do you vote for the soulless person that thinks most like you?

    Parent

    After many years of being (none / 0) (#40)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:04:03 AM EST
    "boots on the ground" for the Democratic Party, which used to be much, much less soul-less than it is now, I am now an Independent.  I am no longer putting pressure on myself to vote for the lesser of two evils.  I've decided not to vote for evil at all and I will never, ever again vote against my own interests.  Ever.  So that pretty much does excludes voting for anyone in the GOP.

    So I will vote on issues and whatever candidate -- if any exists -- that advocates for things that I can support.  Unfortunately, I don't live in Senator Bernie Sanders state, so I don't have a built-in candidate.

    And by all means state what you think.  Having said that, you've already been called to task by a number of folks for positioning yourself as spokesperson.  You will continue to be called upon it if you continue to do it.  If it's a habit, and if you intend to continue to comment on the political or open threads, you might want to pay attention to that.  

    Most commenters here are well informed and don't need a spokesperson.  Those that are not well informed still have a strong POV and don't need a spokesperson either.

    Parent

    To which I already acknowledged and (none / 0) (#42)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:11:57 AM EST
    clarified. How long would you like to dwell on this subject?

    By the way, your justification for how you vote, yet describing yourself as an Independent, are at odds. It reminds me of an exchange between Rachel Maddow, Nick Gillespie and Bill Maher, in which Gillespie pointedly says, "you're not partisan, but you will always be against the Republicans."

    Parent

    Not at all "at odds" (none / 0) (#43)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:19:46 AM EST
    I will always be against the Republicans.  Certainly this incarnation of Republicans.  That for sure does not make me a Democratic partisan.  Like I said.  I won't vote against my own interests.  No matter which party is promoting the idea.  

    This may be a two-party nation, but that doesn't restrict my choices.  If I'm going to end up with a result that I abhor, I'm not going to use my vote -- my one option, my single voice -- to help bring that about.

    You don't really read for content, do you?

    Parent

    Of course I do. I hear your (none / 0) (#44)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:30:49 AM EST
    line of thinking all the time. It's a nice justification to tell yourself, so you can portray that you're never one that is duped. But, since we do live, unfortunately, in a two-party system, and you cut yourself off from considering someone from one of the parties, that makes you partisan.

    As it happens, perhaps you don't read for content. There is a difference between using the word "partisan" as a noun, as you have vs. using it as an adjective, as I quoted Gillespie doing and I just did above.

    Parent

    You really don't read well, do you? (none / 0) (#45)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:49:50 AM EST
    It's a nice justification to tell yourself, so you can portray that you're never one that is duped.
    Show me where I said that I will never be duped?  However, I'll acknowledge that I left out the words "willingly" and "intentionally" in my statement that I won't vote against my own interests.  I expected it to be understood by anyone who, you know, votes.

    But this makes no sense at all.

    But, since we do live, unfortunately, in a two-party system, and you cut yourself off from considering someone from one of the parties, that makes you partisan.
    That is one of the more ridiculous statements I've read.  Today, anyway.  I'll help you out here:  partisan, definition

    I answered your question as to my ... leanings ... in a straightforward manner because you are a new commenter and, unless you've been lurking, you don't know about anybody here.  And right now I have a very small sampling to observe your thought processes.  I'll be curious to see if you play out according to my preliminary impressions or if you surprise me.

    Have a good day.

    Parent

    It's not important for me to know (none / 0) (#46)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:07:51 PM EST
    anybody here. I read very well, thank you.

    This whole discussion was started because you "hate" when people use the umbrella of "us" in their comments to give support to a, perhaps, support-less position. You went on to deride me for using words that could insinuate I was acting as a spokesperson, even though I had already acknowledged that I was wrong for doing so and told the person that originally replied that he was right. You've continued, in this vein, to insult and ridicule me with comments that I don't know how to read well or that I don't pay attention, when it is the exact opposite.

    As for the definition you linked to, thanks for the condescension, but my comment is perfectly applicable. I didn't call you "a partisan," implying that you are "a supporter or proponent of a party", but, instead, said that you "are partisan," which indicates that you are "biased in support of a party."

    You've apparently given your "impressions" of me some thought and I do so dislike disappointing people, but I fear it will be inevitable here. Sorry. Good luck trying to read people in the future.

    Parent

    You are annoyed because I have (none / 0) (#47)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:17:37 PM EST
    observed that you don't read well.  And then continue to prove it.  I am far from biased in a support of a party.  I know that I will never support a contemporary Republican.

    I won't be supporting the Dem either.  Or more accurately, I haven't found a Dem on my ballot that I'll be supporting.  I'm certainly not going to let party affiliation sway me in favor of a candidate over my own doubts and reservations.

    I advocate for neither party.  Only for my own POV.

    Parent

    Sorry to disappoint. I knew it would (none / 0) (#55)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:58:21 PM EST
    happen, but I'm not annoyed. Actually I love to debate. Sometimes it's more fun when the person you're debating can actually support their assertions, but you've been fun, nonetheless.

    You can tell yourself what you like, but it is painfully obvious that you are biased, as you show a "preference or an inclination" to vote Democrat and that your professed determination to "never support a contemporary Republican," "inhibits impartial judgment."

    The quotes, other than yours, are the exact definition of bias. And, since that bias is toward a particular party or group, those of us, who are well-read, call that being partisan. Now, if you always supported a Democrat, even against your own reservations, then you would be "a partisan". Some might throw the word "hack" on the end, just to put some stank on it.

    Your last comment sounds very ominous. I'm afraid, really, I am.

    Here's a little background on where I stand and why I am an Independent:

    1. I am an Athiest
    2. I am a supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.
    3. I support gay marriage
    4. I don't let abortion enter into my decision to support or not support any candidate
    5. I am against the death penalty
    6. I am a supporter of a smaller, more nimble government
    7. I support keeping tax rates low, even on high-wage earners
    8. I support cutting our defense budget
    9. I support utilizing all forms of energy while working on the science to make renewable energy more efficient and less costly

    And, just because I've not commented here until recently, that doesn't mean I am some novice or someone in sheep's clothing. Have fun trying to find some ulterior motive for me being here.


    Parent
    oy (none / 0) (#57)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 03:44:16 PM EST
    You may think you'll be (none / 0) (#49)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:20:36 PM EST
    invisible because you're anonymous, but those aren't the same things.  Wev.

    Like I said.  I'll watch what you comment, simply because I'll read what you comment.  You may not realize this yet, but most people here do kind of know what where other commenters stand.  It's kind of inevitable.

    Parent

    From (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:00:11 AM EST
    independent voter.com

    According to the Wisconsin Republican Liberty Caucus, the Wisconsin congressman actually voted with the Bush Administration's agenda of unprecedented federal expansion 94% of the time, and it may surprise his fiscally conservative fans to know that Paul Ryan's voting record includes votes for the TARP bailouts, the auto bailouts, the massive Bush Medicare expansion, the unprecedented federal intrusion into public education via No Child Left Behind, the 2008 stimulus package, and the $192B 2009 stimulus package.

    So if Ryan really believes what he says why did he vote with George W. Bush 94% of the time?

    Parent

    But he's so sorry about all that! (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:28:30 AM EST
    It just made him so miserable to vote for all that GOP-endorsed spending and he's determined it won't happen again.  (Good profile here.)

    Satisfied?  /s

    Parent

    Seems like some of those things (none / 0) (#33)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:44:11 AM EST
    that Paul Ryan's voting record includes votes for the TARP bailouts, the auto bailouts, the massive Bush Medicare expansion, the unprecedented federal intrusion into public education via No Child Left Behind, the 2008 stimulus package, and the $192B 2009 stimulus package.

    would be appealing to lefties, no?

    Parent

    The auto bailouts (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:46:52 AM EST
    completely appealed to me.  So what? That has nothing at all to do with Ryan.

    Parent
    The question was (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 10:54:18 AM EST
    "Why did he vote with GWB 94% of the time?"

    Seems like the things he did vote that liberals would like were BIG bills, not just tiny little bills that no one has heard of.

    It was just an observation.

    Parent

    wev (none / 0) (#41)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 11:06:37 AM EST
    Liberal interest/disinterest still has nothing to do with Ryan and how he presents.

    Parent
    And when it comes down to it (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:25:38 PM EST
    The vast majority of people are not going to be voting for Paul Ryan.

    Parent
    And yet, jb, (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by sj on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:36:30 PM EST
    Paul Ryan is the topic of the thread.

    Parent
    And yet (none / 0) (#53)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:39:18 PM EST
    As the VP nominee, (again), people will not be voting for him.

    They vote for the top of the ticket, so taking your point, the tizzy that Ryan has stirred around the blogosphere is really about very little.

    Parent

    Has some extensive poll been taken (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 12:48:20 PM EST
    somewhere that definitively confirms that voter's decisions aren't influenced by who the v.p candidates are?

    Or are we operating strictly in the realm of conjecture here?

     

    Parent

    I would say conjecture. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by justincaselawgic on Tue Aug 14, 2012 at 01:47:19 PM EST
    When it came to President Obama, the pick of Biden for VP likely added no one to the vote tallies. But, when McCain picked Palin, he picked up quite a bit of additional support he would not have otherwise had. Of course, some may have decided not to vote for McCain because of Palin, so it is hard to figure out if it was an overall plus or minus.

    Parent
    Historically (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 01:59:55 PM EST
    VP picks can hurt a candidate, but they really don't have much influence in helping the candidate beyond possibly a point or two in the VP's home state. (And that's not even a sure thing)

    Here's one thought:

    Since 1960, however, it's hard to prove that running mates have made a great deal of difference. In the past 12 presidential contests, the party has lost its vice presidential candidate's home state one out of every three times. Most recently when the Democrats failed to carry Sen. John Edwards's home state of North Carolina in 2004.

    Americans don't vote for vice president. You can prove it with two words: Dan Quayle. Quayle got elected vice president in 1988 even though most Americans did not believe he was qualified for the presidency. People weren't voting for Quayle. They were voting for Vice President George H.W. Bush, whose qualifications were never in doubt.

    So if vice presidential nominees don't always carry their own states, and if people don't vote for vice president, how can a VP choice help you win? Essentially, by giving voters a sense of who you are and how you make decisions.

    And Nate Silver weighs in:

    With that said, it seems likely that the vice presidential nominee's effect on his or her home state is normally quite modest -- perhaps two or three percentage points on average, if a little more in some cases and a little less in others.

    To be sure, two or three percentage points in the right swing state is not trivial, but it is probably not enough to outweigh the other strengths and weaknesses that a vice presidential candidate could potentially impart onto the ticket.

    Indeed, presidential campaigns in recent years have largely abided by this principle, with recent vice presidential nominees hailing from states like Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, New York and Wyoming that did not figure to be competitive.

    So, no - it isn't conjecture, but I do know how much liberal bloggers and commenters want to MAKE the Ryan pick the be-all, end-all of the Romney campaign.


    Parent

    liberal bloggers and commenters.. (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 02:18:11 PM EST
    interesting choice of words..

    I don't see why anyone would need to make Ryan "the be-all and end-all"; if anything, he probably serves as a (very relatively) sane distraction from all the baggage Romney brings with him.

    Parent

    Because in the end (none / 0) (#69)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 02:38:12 PM EST
    His selection probably won't make much of a difference.  People are all talk nowadays, but when it comes right down to it, Republicans, especially those who hate Obama, were going to vote for Romney anyways. They are not suffering from apathy, even though the MSNBC's of the world like to claim that.

    The selection of Ryan just energizes some factions of the base, who already want to vote Obama out, even if they aren't wild about Romney.

    But it does give something for liberal message boards, blogs, and Rachel Maddow to analyze to death.

    Parent

    Maybe "apathetic" (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 02:54:41 PM EST
    is the wrong word, but I guarantee you that there aren't alot conservative evangelicals who are fired with enthusiasm by the idea of casting a presidential vote for a follower of a "false religion".

    Which is why Ryan is currently falling all over himself to play up his conservative christian credentials.

    Parent

    Ryan in Florida (none / 0) (#66)
    by Raoul on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 01:29:52 PM EST
    "There is with Paul Ryan, who is so toxic on Florida that he will not see the state except for the Republican convention."

    On Tuesday, Ryan will campaign in Florida -- at the huge retirement complex The Villages.