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George Zimmerman: Missing From the Discovery

By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Wed May 23, 2012 at 01:23:35 PM EST
Tags: George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin (all tags)
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As Mark O'Mara reminds people on the George Zimmerman website, not all discovery has been provided. Some we will never see.

Things I'd like to know: What time did George Zimmerman leave his house? What route did he take from his house to where he parked his car? How long was he driving before he parked his car and called the non-emergency number to report Trayvon Martin? Where exactly was his car parked? What route did Trayvon take after walking close to GZ's vehicle? [More....]

Here’s my latest map. (Note that “The Teacher," the older distraught 911 caller, doesn’t live in the row of houses with the shared backyard. Her location is stated in the discovery version of her 911 call which is designated W-18 2/26 call.)

What discovery, other than Zimmerman's statements and photos of Trayvon Martin which are exempted from public records disclosure, do you think would be helpful to an analysis of where the encounter began and what ensued?

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    George Zimmerman: Missing From the Discovery | 198 comments (198 topical)
    I'd also like to know a few other things.... (5.00 / 0) (#101)
    by Mary2012 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:21:06 AM EST
    1. Was GZ's jacket zipped up or not

    2. A description of how the holster is worn & what's involved in retrieving the gun

    3. GZ's arms during the struggle -- were they free (as in reaching out for help) or were they clamped down.  I don't remember seeing any injury type photo's/ remarks made re his arms.


    I can reply to the holster (none / 0) (#103)
    by DebFrmHell on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:02:26 AM EST
    There is a photo of it in evidence.  I believe there is a series of photos in the Orlando Sentinel and the ones involving the gun and holster are towards the end.

    It has a clip on the side, not unlike the old cell phone carriers for a visual, and attachs to the inside of your pants. There is no restraining strap to keep the gun in place. You grab the grip and pull it out.

    It is barely a slip of material and it looks to be made of neoprene with reinforced edging, IMO.

    Also note that the KelTec is not a large handgun.

    Parent

    After taking a series of nasty blows to the head.. (none / 0) (#108)
    by redwolf on Fri May 25, 2012 at 04:54:58 AM EST
    Zimmerman might not have been doing much of anything coherently.  He was probably pretty punch drunk after the first punch.

    Parent
    CCTV from clubhouse (none / 0) (#1)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Wed May 23, 2012 at 01:54:45 PM EST
    (1) What's on the video taken at the clubhouse at 1111 Retreat View Circle and where is that video?

    (2) Where was George Zimmerman's truck parked?  Facing which direction, north, south, east or west?  This is critical to verify anything George Zimmerman saw from his vehicle.  It may also tell whether George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin by car before walking down the back walkway behind the houses.

    (3) After letting Zimmerman's wife move the truck instead of securing it, did the SPD ever go back to take pictures of it, exterior and interior?

    since he met them the next day (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:41:40 PM EST
    to do a reenactment at the scene, I would assume
    he drove his truck and they could have examined it.

    Here's a photo in the discovery with two white trucks that might be from the re-enactment the next day (if the location was unimportant, there would be no reason to include it in discovery.) One or both  trucks might belong to another resident, or one might belong to another resident and one might be Zimmerman's. The photo markings are mine.

    Here is the Fox News photo of a truck (not identified) at scene on night of shooting (with cop looking at it and red car in driveway)

    Here is a photo that provides some context to one of the trucks and the red car.

    Parent

    no assumptions - let's hear from SPD and the state (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:30:32 PM EST
    I appreciate the photos and the explanations.  I will clarify what I'm asking for.  I want the evidence that the police considered the vehicle George Zimmerman was driving, the location it was parked at, how it got there, etc.

    The other thing I would like to know is if they canvassed houses on both sides of the streets for witnesses.  The evidence they released said they did tag checks.  Did they do home checks all the way  down each street or did they just stop at the first set of homes within earshot based on Zimmerman's story?

    The second and third sets of townhouses on either side could tell more as well as potential witnesses along the back gate townhomes.  Is there evidence SPD asked anybody there?

    Parent

    The Trucks (none / 0) (#29)
    by DebFrmHell on Wed May 23, 2012 at 11:52:10 PM EST
    I think that the picture of the truck is taken the next day after Zmmerman drove it to that location from his house.  It would be the most direct route from his residence in the SW corner of the complex.

    Thus the truck is facing in the wrong direction.  IMO!   He would have had to make a u-turn or use a driveway on Twin Trees to turn around to get his truck facing north.

    IF he turned right at the clubhouse to keep TM in sight his truck would have been facing south.

    BTW, I am North/South directionally challenged.

    8-)

    Parent

    The truck in google maps is likely not GZ's (none / 0) (#125)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:30:00 AM EST
    And I say this because it seems so much more likely that this vehicle belongs to a resident who lives nearby.  It's in many photos and "it's always there" is the CW.  

    The keys are for a Honda.  That truck looks like a  full size pickup truck, and a Ford one to me, just going by the nameplate location.  Chevys put the logo on the door, and Fords put them on the 3/4 panel. Google 2007 Ford ranger as a start.  I've not bothered to find an exact match.  

    GZ could have parked many places, and he may have MOVED during his recorded call to the police operator.  It only takes TM 34 seconds to seem to pass from the mailboxes to a position where he is past GZ.  That limits the range of the truck IMHO to somewhere closer than the cut thru sidewalk's starting point.  More like the corner near the clubhouse, but many things are possible, including a U turn.

    here is another illustration with the 34 seconds walking range noted, and three of many possible locations plotted.  The average walking speed of 4 feet/second was used to make the suggested path on a google maps illustration.  

    http://tinyurl.com/d3cwbvg

     

    Parent

    clubhouse video likely not interesting (none / 0) (#170)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 03:31:28 PM EST
    I think there has already been a b+w still frame grab of what looks like someone in a ball cap in a hallway.  Is this the clubhouse video?  I think it is time stamped early in the day, and is an indoor shot.  Maybe TM went to the clubhouse according to his family's testimony and the prosecution just wanted a shot of him to establish he had access to resident codes... who knows.

    I'm doubting we will ever see much in a clubhouse camera... but who knows.  In a more perfect world we would see if GZ's car moved to follow TM after he left the mailboxes, or where GZ first parked, etc.  I'm not holding my breath for these answers however.  

    Parent

    The frame grab is very hard to make out but (none / 0) (#179)
    by Mary2012 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 06:07:56 PM EST
    I thought it was a shot of Tracy Martin and that might be Brandy just behind him??? at the SPD on the 28th of Feb.?

    I believe Trayvon's dad was going in for an update on the investigation around 10:30 and it seems to fit with the time stamp.

    Not sure of this however.

    Parent

    The B&W Photo (none / 0) (#181)
    by DebFrmHell on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:33:03 PM EST
    I thought that might be Tracy Martin and Brandy Green at the police station or possibly the morgue.  The time stamp appears to be on the 27th at 10:37am.  That is some very tiny print.

    Sorry, but I forget what time he reported his son missing but the SPD dispatched two cars to the Green residence one had a chaplin on board.  Seems to be about 9:30ish.  IIRC.

    Parent

    The photo I'm referring to is on p.62 of the (none / 0) (#184)
    by Mary2012 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 08:17:46 PM EST
    evidence documents.  The "time stamp" is in fairly large print in the lower right hand corner and reads:

    "2/28/2012  10:32:45 AM  PSC - Cam 56  Corridor 2-197"

    Is this the photo you are referring to?

    Then, if you scroll back to p 40, you'll find:

    On 2/28/2012 at 1030 hours I met with Tracy Martin, and [redacted] at the Sanford Police Department.

    The purpose for this meeting was to brief the decedent's next of kin as to the progress of this investigation. ...

    Page 39 states the autopsy took place on 2/27/2012 at 1030 hours and you are correct re approx 9:30 (9:20 according to the report; also on p. 39), on the 27th for official notification.

    Parent

    Keys at the T (none / 0) (#2)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:46:56 PM EST
    What caused Zimmerman to drop his keys near the T?

    Busted (none / 0) (#55)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:31:07 AM EST
    I think it may have been when he raised his hands for Officer Smith. Has the location of the arrest been established?

    The Teacher overheard Zimmerman admitting to the shooting.

    Parent

    Could've been anything... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Addison on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:35:20 PM EST
    ...if I'm holding my keys and suddenly I'm in a fight (whether I start it or not), those keys are going on the ground, not in my pocket.

    Parent
    Distance from Phone to Body (none / 0) (#3)
    by J Upchurch on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:12:58 PM EST
    It appears that Martin's phone and Zimmerman's flashlight were found close to the T. Martin's body was found fairly far South from there. I assume the altercation started near the phone, so I would like to understand how the body ended up that far away.

    The autopsy reports the bullet trajectory as pretty much front to back from the left side of Martin's chest. I was expecting more of a right to left trajectory. FtoB seems to indicate more separation  between Zimmerman and Martin than I was expecting.

    The Trajectory was from Martin's left to Right (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by J Upchurch on Wed May 23, 2012 at 09:13:18 PM EST
    When I diagrammed it out from the left anterior 5th intercostal space to the right lower lobe of lung, then it does have a trajectory from the left side of Martin's body to the right side.

    When the ME describes the direction as "directly front to back" it is rather misleading.

    Zimmerman shot Martin in the left chest and it passed between the ribs, through the heart and lodged in right lung.

    Parent

    Directly (none / 0) (#33)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:13:47 AM EST
    When the ME describes the direction as "directly front to back" it is rather misleading.

    I think that just means the bullet trajectory wasn't deflected.

    Parent
    One police statement (none / 0) (#4)
    by amateur on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:44:52 PM EST
    has keys and a flashlight (unidentified owner) near the tee but TM's phone and another flashlight were found near the body.

    Parent
    Key ring flashlight (none / 0) (#14)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:51:59 PM EST
    Just to be clear, the flashlight near the T was a small, keyring flashlight attached to Zimmerman's Honda key,.

    Parent
    Phone and flashlight near body (none / 0) (#5)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:49:43 PM EST
    Martin's and (presumably) Zimmerman's flashlight were found near the body. Zimmerman's keys were found near the T.

    In this photo Marker 7 is Martin's phone. Marker 5 is a black flashlight and the arrow is the shell casing. I'm uncertain what 6 is.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#7)
    by J Upchurch on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:36:15 PM EST
    That you. That makes a lot more sense. It was bugging me that I couldn't see the 5 & 7 in the picture with the body. I guess they added them later.

    Parent
    Object Marker #6 (none / 0) (#32)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:12:47 AM EST
    I think Object Marker #6 marks the location of the body.

    Some of these photos show OM-6 next to a flat yellow rectangle, with the corners at one end cut to make a pointer.

    Parent

    Shell Casing (none / 0) (#36)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:46:48 AM EST
    No, the pointer seems to be for the shell casing, which is supposed to be OM-8.

    Parent
    I have a question (none / 0) (#183)
    by DebFrmHell on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:48:01 PM EST
    about where that shell casing landed.  I freely admit I have never shot a KelTec but that marker is a long distance to me from where the body is.  My gun used to eject right maybe 7-8ft. approx. with me standing upright.

    If both of these gentlemen are in a relatively prone postion, the casing wouldn't get that much height to travel that far.

    The wind carried that walmart bag across the sidewalk from slightly northeast direction, IMO less than 30deg. so I don't think wind is a factor.

    Anyone care to help clarify?  I haven't shot a handgun in several years so I am working from memory.

    Parent

    The body was rolled over (none / 0) (#210)
    by amateur on Sat May 26, 2012 at 11:50:19 AM EST
    before it was removed. I don't know which direction thought.

    Parent
    ejected shell found under the body (none / 0) (#212)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:36:41 PM EST
    After the body was rolled over and removed from the scene, the detectives found the shell casing with a metal detector underneath the body.  EIther the shell didn't go far in a free flight trajectory (maybe more up and down than left to right) or else the shell impacted with someone's clothing and didn't get into the grass until later.  Either way the shell is very close to the position it was fired from, I'd say.  

    In other words, if the shell was ejected six feet then the body was moved six feet as well.  Seems unlikely.  

    I'd draw a two or three foot circle around the shell for a good guess at where the pistol was when it was fired.  Anything more supposes the body was moved by two people or dragged for no reason.  

    Parent

    Maybe Det, Serino's Object Marker? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:58:58 AM EST
    It could have been Det. Serino's unknown object marker as he swept the area for the cartridge case:

    Afetr a visual search of the area failed to turn up the cartridge I got the metal detector and began to scan the area where the victim had lain. I did one sweep of the area with negative results and then reset the sensitivity of the metal detector. As I started again I heard a strong tone and looked in the area. I did not see anything so I marked the area and instructed CST Smith to check the area again visually and I moved on. Before I got to the end of the sweep CST Smith told me she had found the casing just inches from where I had placed the marker.

    The casing had fell between blades of grass and came to rest in an end up orientation, so it probably would have been hard to spot.

    Parent

    OM-6 or 8? (none / 0) (#40)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:41:58 AM EST
    That was Leon Ciesla. His report is on pp. 19-25.

    I made the same mistake, because Chris Serino's name is prominent at the top of p. 20.

    They looked for the cartridge case after  everything else had been collected, presumably including the cell phone (OM-7).

    I'm thinking the marker Ciesla mentioned would be #8, and it would be moved closer to the cartridge case after it was found.

    I was wrong about the pointer, but I still think OM-6 was for the body, which was also removed before the search for the cartridge case.


    Parent

    Hard to square the location... (none / 0) (#186)
    by Gandydancer on Fri May 25, 2012 at 09:56:07 PM EST
    ...of TM's phone with Dee Dee's story if the initial confrontation was at the "T". Semes like one of the phones must have been stowed or clipped.

    I believe Galbreath described the larger flashlight as a "tactical" flashlight, implying(?) that it was Z's and suitable for use as a weapon (i.e., MagLite type). And the fact that the keychain one was on (page#?) may imply that it was not reliably on. How big was it (D's C's?)? If it was brought along as a weapon it seems unlikely that if Z chased M without first being punched that he would have dropped it. (Unlikely that he would have caught him as well.)

    Were TM's headphones worn outside his sweatshirt at the 7-11?

    Parent

    How big was the "tactical" flashlight? (none / 0) (#191)
    by MJW on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:44:22 AM EST
    It was a mighty 6 inches.  Just the sort of weapon I'd want in a firefight.

    Parent
    and it was impotent, too (none / 0) (#204)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 07:39:52 AM EST
    As long (pun intended) as we are going with that metaphor...  Most people are thinking that since the keychain flashlight was on when it was found that George was using it insted, therefore the black flashlight was either inoperable, or gave out and died soon after being switched on.  Some claim you can hear him banging on it around 2:40 into his recorded call, ironically when he is likely close to the spot where he dropped the keychain flashlight.  That's one reason I discount the idea that GZ dropped the keychain flashlight on his first trip past the T intersection.  

    Parent
    Most Of Whom? (none / 0) (#205)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 07:45:21 AM EST
    Who are these people you are talking about?

    Why do you think the key chain flashlight was on?

    Parent

    That's a good question (none / 0) (#214)
    by MJW on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:54:03 PM EST
    I read several places that the key chain flashlight was on, but when I look through the released evidence,  I don't see where anyone says that.  I would think it it where that would be so obvious that it would be prominently mentioned.

    Parent
    page 80 keychain flashlight is on (none / 0) (#220)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:26:04 PM EST
    and those people are, you know... those people...on other blogs, who read page 80 and are forming a consensus that GZ would use the best flashlight he had since it was dark.  

    Parent
    Is there a reason you're so rude? (none / 0) (#223)
    by MJW on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:45:36 PM EST
    I wasn't rude in my comment. I simply said I couldn't find anyone saying the flashlight was on.  Obviously I missed the comment on page 80.  I probably searched for "flashlight" when I should have searched for "flash".

    Parent
    Flashlights And Earphones (none / 0) (#206)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 08:31:18 AM EST
    Sgt. McCoy described the flashlight as 'small'.(p.17) She mentioned the key chain flashlight as well, so she clearly meant that even the larger flashlight wasn't that big.

    7-11 Video

    No earphones visible. The hood is up the whole time.

    Parent

    Proof of headset use in 7-11 (none / 0) (#222)
    by Redbrow on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:42:14 PM EST
    This video from 7-11 actually includes the audio. Although there is a lot of background noise, you can hear Trayvon say hello a couple of times. He has a deep voice that is lower than Zimmerman's.

    He presses a button on his wired headset to answer the phone at about 3:50 in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTv4hMXZgPU&feature=plcp

    Parent

    Someone on another site (none / 0) (#221)
    by MJW on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:35:26 PM EST
    discovered the larger flashlight seems to be a "Rocky Tactical Grade CREE LED Flashlight."   That's tactical grade, not tactical.  It claims to be made of aircraft grade aluminum.  It's powered by six AAA batteries.  Several product reviews complain about problems with the switch.

    Parent
    disagree. keys by T, phone by body (none / 0) (#60)
    by willisnewton on Thu May 24, 2012 at 01:08:27 PM EST
    see the 567 photo - 6 is likely the shell casing, right?  I've been away for a couple of days.  

    Parent
    Cartridge OM-8 (none / 0) (#77)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:43:49 PM EST
    The casing is supposed to be OM-8. See p. 7.

    OM-6 has no entry in the property log. I'm thinking it marks where the body was found.

    Parent

    If Dee Dee's statement to Atty Crump is more (none / 0) (#6)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:01:56 PM EST
    fleshed out, I'd like to see a transcript or listen to that audio.

    I'd also like the answers to all that Jeralyn listed above:

    What time did George Zimmerman leave his house? What route did he take from his house to where he parked his car? How long was he driving before he parked his car and called the non-emergency number to report Trayvon Martin? Where exactly was his car parked? What route did Trayvon take after walking close to GZ's vehicle?
    The addresses of the witnesses (none / 0) (#9)
    by amateur on Wed May 23, 2012 at 05:09:35 PM EST
    would be helpful to pinpoint where the altercation started and which way it traveled.  

    I've included the map (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 05:47:55 PM EST
    with the addresses which places some of the witnesses by the numbers the state gave them.

    What other addresses were you looking for?

    Parent

    I was curious about (none / 0) (#12)
    by amateur on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:07:55 PM EST
    the other 911 callers, including witness #2(?) that said she saw people running. I didn't see her on the map. If the earlier callers were farther down the row it could indicate the fight moved up towards the T.  If they were at the other end or in the same row as the teacher, it might suggest the fight moved down from the T.  Which one was the one who called 911 with Jeremy in the background?  Was that 3 or 11?

    Parent
    W-11 lives with Jeremy (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 07:26:32 PM EST
    and was the first 911 call with the screams in the background and the loud shot.

    W-2 did not call 911. She was first interviewed on 3/1/12.  Her sister who lives with her was also home. She is the one who on 3/1 referred to two people running but later backed off it, saying she only got a quick glance and had taken out her contacts. I am not positive about her address so I didn't mark it on the map. Since she told investigators she was no longer sure she saw two people running and really couldn't see anything because she didn't have her contacts in before the state filed charges, her account would not have factored into the charging decision.

    W-3 is the 911 caller who gave her age as 30.  In the call, she said she didn't see anything and just heard screaming, and then the shot, but then she adds the guy on top had a white tee shirt. She said she couldn't see the person on the bottom and couldn't discern anyone's race.

    On March 19, she was interviewed by John Batchelor
    from the FDLE and Jim Post of the  State's Atty Office. She says the shooting happened by the concrete block in the grass at her next door neighbors. That would be W-6's house at 1221 Twin Trees Lane. W-11 and Jeremy live at 1211 Twin Trees. That puts W-3 at 1231 Twin Trees Lane. (The unit is rented to a resident who is 30 years old. I'm not using names.)

    She also says on March 19 that she was upstairs
    in her office and heard someone screaming for help. It was a man's voice and she peeked under the blinds. She saw a guy on top who had a white tee shirt. His back was to her.  She said she was so scared she called 911.

    She also says in her 3/19 interview she is confused because she knows neither one had a white t-shirt on. She also says she is confused because "the guy in handcuffs had a hoodie on."

    Parent

    Thank you, (none / 0) (#17)
    by amateur on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:42:54 PM EST
    that clears things up quite a bit.

    Parent
    I just listened to w-2's sister's (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:57:22 PM EST
     March 1 telephone interview with Chris Serion (she is W-1) and she says she heard her neighbor who lives right across her backyard go out and say "what's going on, I'm calling 911.") So they live across from W-6 (John) which could put them either at 2851 or 2841 Retreat View Circle. In the interview, Serino says he talked to her sister next to her car in front of their residence. He says her sister told him she thought she saw two guys chasing each other. She says she doesn't know what her sister saw. (The sister's bedroom is downstairs by the back porch. Her sister says she went upstairs and when she heard the shot, thought her sister might have dropped something. The sister then went downstairs.)

    So it's pretty clear the sisters are W-1 and W-2. There's more interviews with sister W-2 who is much more talkative, but I haven't listened to them yet. She thought the sounds she heard were kids roughhousing and didn't pay too much attention until she heard saw/heard her neighbor go out saying he was going to call 911.


    Parent

    W3 On TTL? (none / 0) (#46)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:07:41 AM EST
    I still don't understand why I should believe W3 didn't see Officer Smith out a front window on RVC.

    Parent
    White t-shirt (none / 0) (#58)
    by amateur on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:06:05 AM EST
    could have been witness 13 since by other accounts he came out very soon after the shooting.

    Parent
    Before Shooting (none / 0) (#78)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:49:43 PM EST

    W3 was one of two who called before the shooting. She saw the person in white before she called, and he was on top of someone.

    I think some trick of the light made Martin's dark gray sweatshirt appear white to her.

    Parent

    Some trick (none / 0) (#82)
    by amateur on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:49:11 PM EST
    that would have to be.  I don't know... from reading and listening to some of the witness accounts it seems clear that several of them mix up things that happened before and after the shooting.  Like the report of GZ saying "I've got a gun".  I think memories can get out of order.  On the 911 call, W-3 tells the operator about the white t-shirt after the shooting.  That doesn't mean that's when she saw it, but it seems like a possibility.

    Parent
    Not At All (none / 0) (#85)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:27:52 PM EST
    Human color perception is very sensitive to changes in lighting.

    What trick would make her see someone on top of another, who was actually standing up the whole time?

    This witness also said she thought she saw the one in the hoodie handcuffed. I doubt she will be useful to the defense. I'm just saying I don't buy that the person she saw was one of the neighbors walking around.

    The person who heard 'I've got a gun', said it was after the shot. (p.41) Some in the media got it wrong, as usual.


    Parent

    She could have seen (none / 0) (#88)
    by amateur on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:17:29 PM EST
    anyone who was leaning over the body, either to check for a pulse or give cpr.  I agree she won't be very helpful to either the prosecution or the defense.

    Parent
    Good Point (none / 0) (#105)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:36:08 AM EST

    I was assuming W13 didn't do that because I don't recall any mention of it, which is risky assuming.

    There's no written statement from W13 in the discovery so far. On p.37 Serino says W13 gave written and audio statements.

    From her 911 call and her statement on March 19, it seems clear that W3 was afraid to look out her back window after hearing the gunshot, and instead looked out her front window for the police.

    I'm just saying, if I had to bet I would bet the T-shirt person was Martin.

    Parent

    cell phone gps (none / 0) (#10)
    by Clara Bow on Wed May 23, 2012 at 05:11:22 PM EST
    Is there a way to determine exactly where the cell phone calls were made from? Don't most cell phones have sophisticated gps systems that put you within feet of where a call originated?


    E911 Phase 2 (none / 0) (#57)
    by J Upchurch on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:58:44 AM EST
    It is possible that the police might actually have your GPS location with E911 Phase II, but the phone companies are only required to report your location to 300 meters. When the regulations were written, they were mainly concerned about dispatching to automobile accidents. Also, unless you are walking around with the GPS turned on, it can take minutes to acquire a location.

    There are actual legal cases discussing when the police can access the location information from your phone without your permission. I found that Google can determine where I'm at pretty accurately just based on wi-fi signals.

    Parent

    On my list... (none / 0) (#13)
    by DebFrmHell on Wed May 23, 2012 at 06:10:12 PM EST
    Where is a statement from Brandy's son?  As far as I can see there is a couple of minutes that TM was unaccounted for.  The next day after the shooting on TV, Tracy Martin and Brandy Green gave an interview down in the area where his son was killed.  Ms. Green made some statement about TM on the porch and he got shot (Paraphrased) They were under huge distress at  the time.

    Brandy and her son Chad (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:21:36 PM EST
    were interviewed by Craig Rivera for Fox News. (Geraldo's brother.) Here is the interview -- it aired on Geraldo's Fox show. It's not great on the some of the facts (it assumes GZ was following TM down the path to their house, which we don't know happened) but it is good for showing how far down their home was (and that it wasn't a straight path all the way.)

    It is poignant, especially when Ms. Green talks about how she moved there to provide a safer place for her son. She talks about how awful it is to have someone else's child killed where she lives.

    We haven't seen anything of her lately. I wonder if she and Tracy Martin are still together. I didn't know until a few days ago that Mr. Martin remarried in 2005. His second wife, Alicia Stanley (Martin) says Trayvon was with them every day. In this article, she says she and Tracy Martin split up "weeks before Trayvon's death."  (Maybe that's when their divorce became final.) But the New York Times said he and Ms. Green were dating for 2 years. So it's not clear how long Tracy Martin and Ms. Green were together, but Chad says he thought of Trayvon like a brother and says he asked Trayvon to bring him skittles from the store.

    And watch out for that NY Times article, it gets a bunch of stuff wrong, a la NBC.

    This guy seemed to be up to no good; like he was on drugs or something; in a gray hoodie. Asked to describe him further, he said, "He looks black."

    Zimmerman was asked what Trayvon was wearing and he responded a hoodie and jeans. He didn't say anything about the hoodie causing him to be suspicious. And he wasn't asked to describe Trayvon further. He was asked whether he was white, black or hispanic, and he answered, "He looks black." The NYTimes should have corrected this article. It was written April 1.

    Parent

    I don't know if they are together (none / 0) (#34)
    by DebFrmHell on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:20:07 AM EST
    either.  You never see her in any of the many pictures of the family.  

    I truly feel sorry for that family.  No parent should have to bury their teen son.

    But, I don't think that they can prove Murder 2.  The only part that caught my attention was the age of the victim in relation to the charge.  

    In order for GZ to be of depraved mind,it would seem to me that they would have pushed the racial profiling.  They didn't do it.  The FBI took that away from them through the voice analysis.  IMO.  There is the aspect of criminally profiling someone, would that constitute a depraved mind?

    So Not a Lawyer!

    I found it interesting that other than you no one else seems to have noticed the descrepancy between ME-8 and ME-12 in the DNA tests.  I thought I was having a "A-Ha" moment until I read something you had posted later.

    What did you think about the fact that GZs DNA was on the cuff of that sleeve.  IIRC, it was DNA other than blood.  I thought it might be saliva since he claimed that TM had put his and over his mouth.

    I have other questions, particularly that small wound to TMs hand,  but I will bore everyone with them a little at a time.

    Parent

    Why would their togetherness impact on evidence? (none / 0) (#68)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:38:38 PM EST
    I don't understand why you mention that Tracy Martin and Brandy Green may not be together any longer and that Tracy Martin was divorced from somebody I never heard of.  As a lawyer, does that typically make a difference as to evidence or news coverage?

    Maybe they're doing a temporary split to keep Brandy Green's son protected.  Help me understand how you lawyers discount or promote evidence seeking.

    Parent

    girl friend to fiance back to girlfriend (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:18:07 AM EST
    In the earlier reports Green was always referred to as the girlfriend.

    Then Crump hired Julison to do PR and the stories he pitched to his buddies like Matt Gutman and Jeff Weiner started referring to Green as 'fiance'.

    Then on 5/12 Weiner wrote the article "Trayvon Martin's father recalls moments with his son, 'my best friend'. The article indicates the relationship between Martin and Sybrina has been rekindled with quotes like "has brought us closer," and "we need to lean on each other. We know we need each other to get us through this."

    This article also mentions Alicia Stanley, whom Martin married in 2005 and only mentions Green in passing, referring to her a 'girlfriend'.

    I noticed in subsequent Julison PR articles that Green is always referred to as 'girlfriend' and is never labeled 'fiance' anymore.

    Parent

    I think... (none / 0) (#90)
    by DebFrmHell on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:35:22 PM EST
    that Jeralyn is reporting the despair of Brandy Green and her family in that interview.  The reference point being the interview itself.  I took it as a personal comment rather than that of a lawyer.

    I watched an interview with both Tracy Martin and Brandy Green the day after the shooting and the pain was palpable.

    Living proof that lawyers are people, too.  

    I apologize in advance if Ms. Merritt thinks I am putting word in her mouth.

    Parent

    you are correct (none / 0) (#162)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:34:09 PM EST


    Parent
    Do you have a link (none / 0) (#18)
    by DizzyMissL on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:51:19 PM EST
    to the audio of the witness interviews?

    no link (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 09:48:43 PM EST
    because they are on a website created for the media by the State's Attorney's office. That's where I access them  (I applied for and received media credentials for the site -- it's neither free nor public.) Some media outlets have posted some of them.

    They include multiple interviews for witnesses designated W -1 through W-22, both by Sanford and the FDLE, and interviews of five paramedics and the Sanford Fire Dept. unit head for EMS #38, who sent them out, and one of Zimmerman's father.

    Dee Dee is one of the numbered witnesses (W-8) and there's an interview of her by the state's attorney's office and her telephone interview with Crump. I think other sites have posted both of those.

    All the paramedic/fire  interviews were done by FDLE (not Sanford Police) between March 19 and March 27.  Z's father was interviewed by FDLE on 3/19.

    Most witnesses were interviewed by Sanford Police and the FDLE. Only a few (like W-12 and W-13, who I think are married) were later interviewed by prosecutors. One witness was interviewed at the State Attorney's office by an investigator --  W-22, who worked with GZ in 2008 for a few months and complained George made fun of him in an immature way (never threatened him or was violent).

    Parent

    Crump Interview with DeeDee (none / 0) (#39)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:34:08 AM EST
    If someone has posted the Crump telephone interview with DeeDee, I haven't found it.  I think it's rather disgusting that the state puts the evidence on a special media-only website.  They're public records, not media records.


    Parent
    Me Too (none / 0) (#41)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:44:30 AM EST
    I've been looking too. My searches turn up the de la Rionda interview and Crump's March 20 release.

    Parent
    Access (none / 0) (#44)
    by Raoul on Thu May 24, 2012 at 04:16:39 AM EST
    Hint hint.  They are public records.  Send a request for access here.
    http://www.sao4th.com/media-relations-and-public-records/

    Parent
    Paid for Access (none / 0) (#54)
    by cboldt on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:10:51 AM EST
    The state has a legitimate interest in controlling costs, and as a general rule, public records means anybody can view the material at the state's facilities, or, if they want to pay for it, to obtain a copy.

    I assume that anybody who is willing to pay the freight can obtain access to the state-established "media" site.  Claim you are a blogger, and then you are part of the press.

    Parent

    Crump Questions (none / 0) (#109)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 05:37:20 AM EST
    There are two things I really want to know about Dee Dee's statement to Crump.

    Did she indicate clearly that Martin sheltered from the rain at the clubhouse mail area?

    Did she say she heard Martin say 'get off'?

    Parent

    I would like to see (none / 0) (#19)
    by DizzyMissL on Wed May 23, 2012 at 08:54:50 PM EST
    cell phone records for Zimmerman, Martin, and DeeDee.  Text messages too.

    the state has moved to (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2012 at 10:01:01 PM EST
    keep the cell records private.

    Parent
    What possible justification is there (none / 0) (#42)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:52:12 AM EST
    for sealing Martin's cellphone records?  Most of the times are already public, though the times are rounded to whole minutes.  They could redact the names and phone numbers, with just IDs, like the witness list.  I'd certainly like to know what DeeDee texted to Martin at 7:08.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#61)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 01:43:16 PM EST
    If she texted something like "Run!" then her claims of Martin being afraid are bolstered. If she texted, "Kick his @ss" or anything that suggests Trayvon told her he was going to teach the guy who was watching him a lesson, the prosecution is sunk.

    If she texted, "Call me back" or something neutral like that, it's a wash.

    If the prosecution has over-charged Zimmerman in an attempt to manipulate them into cutting a deal for manslaughter or something, Martin's last communications with the girlfriend could be essential to evaluating their chances with a jury.


    Parent

    Call dropped. Call U back l8tr (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:42:44 PM EST
    Maybe something like that since speculation is allowed here.  You raise a good point.

    I would definitely like to see Zimmerman's call log and text messages.  The state alluded to a text on Zimmerman's phone about a "reverend" per the bond hearing video (not the cnn transcript which is useless).

    Parent

    Reverend Al, I Think (none / 0) (#74)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:04:13 PM EST
    Here is the exchange:

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in that phone did you receive or send text messages sir.

    ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever make any reference to a reverend?

    O'MARA: Objection, your honor. Outside the scope.

    JUDGE LESTER: Sustained.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever make any reference to Mr. Martin, the father of the victim?

    JUDGE LESTER: Sustained. You're getting a little bit far away.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I apologize your honor. My question is he was asked in terms of apology to the family and I'd like to be able to address that if I could.

    JUDGE LESTER: I think you can classify that whether or not he asked the apology. I don't want to get into other areas.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

    JUDGE LESTER: Thank you.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, Mr. Zimmerman, do you recall sending a message to someone, an e-mail, about referring to the victim's father?

    ZIMMERMAN: No, sir. I don't.

    The "reverend" business seems to be the prosecutor attempting to make Zimmerman look bad by bringing up comments he made about the Martin family's PR campaign.  My bet is the "reverend" comments were directed at the not-so-Reverend Al Sharpton.

    Parent

    Hearing on protective order (none / 0) (#106)
    by MJW on Fri May 25, 2012 at 04:04:25 AM EST
    According to Bay News 9:
    A hearing is set for Friday, June 1 at 1:30 p.m. on the State's Motion for Protective Order.


    Parent
    Include Brady Green's Address in Map (none / 0) (#22)
    by J Upchurch on Wed May 23, 2012 at 09:29:01 PM EST
    The NY Times has it in their diagram, so it apparently isn't secret.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-marti n.html

    I think it is clearer knowing where Martin was going.

    Prosecutors file motion to seal (none / 0) (#30)
    by rjarnold on Thu May 24, 2012 at 12:06:29 AM EST
    parts of the evidence. From the article this includes:

    The results of a test police conducted on Zimmerman the day after he killed Trayvon Martin

    Two CDs of audio interviews with a witness identified as "W9." She is the same person who called police anonymously just two days after the killing to say Zimmerman and his family were racists.

    Crime scene photos and autopsy photos and any others showing Trayvon's body

    Zimmerman's statements to police.

    Cell phone records. (Another article says these include those of Trayvon, his girlfriend, and Zimmerman.)

    yes they will be (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 24, 2012 at 02:32:13 AM EST
    challenging the admissibility of their own test as unreliable -- the voice stress test they asked him to take and he passed.

    Parent
    Voice Stress (none / 0) (#43)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:54:32 AM EST

    A lawyer wouldn't advise such a test until he knew his client would pass. Then he would make stipulation of admissibility a precondition.  

    Parent
    Not a lawyer (none / 0) (#47)
    by Rojas on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:25:28 AM EST
    Apparantly his father was advising him.

    "It's like a lie detector, but more reliable," Robert Zimmerman said. "I told him, `If you are comfortable and have been truthful, go and do it. If at any time you are uncomfortable, just say: `Am I afree to leave?' So he did it."


    Parent
    The motion to seal the evidence (none / 0) (#62)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:23:10 PM EST
    is here.

    Parent
    The mos t curious item is (none / 0) (#63)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:38:46 PM EST
    "The 911 telephone recording of the murder."

    First, is it typical for the prosecution to characterize the event as "the murder" before trial?

    Second, if it refers to the scream call (as I assume it does), the horse is out of the barn and into the next county.


    Parent

    Cboldt on JustOneMinute says... (none / 0) (#75)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:33:46 PM EST
    I think it's a deliberately inflammatory choice of word. The statute he refers to, F.S. 406.136(2) refers to the confidentiality of material relating to a "killing."

    So instead of using the statute's neutral and entirely accurate wording, the prosecutor goes for the unproven "murder."

    That fits the prosecutors' pattern.  In the bond hearing, we have:

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But before you committed this crime on February 26th, you were arrested -- I'm sorry, not arrested. You were questioned that day, right, February 26th?

    I was surprised O'Mara didn't object.  Perhaps he assumed the judge would not be impressed by the prosecutor's cheap tactic.

    Parent

    Are the recordings of (none / 0) (#31)
    by rjarnold on Thu May 24, 2012 at 12:22:55 AM EST
    De La Rionda's interviews with the witnesses  (besides the one with DeeDee) available online? I would just like to know, because in his interview with DeeDee it seemed like he asked leading questions, didn't ask a few obvious questions, and didn't notice when she said "he right by his father's house."

    I was wandering if the other interviews showed similar patterns or if that was unique to the one with DeeDee.

    de la Rionda Style (none / 0) (#51)
    by cboldt on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:53:41 AM EST
    We see similar style when de la Rionda questioned Gilbreath, during the bail hearing.  CNN has a transcript for substantial parts of that, but I don't believe for all of that - for example, the CNN transcript omits Judge Lester's questioning of the witness as to distance of muzzle of gun from Martin, when the shot was fired.

    Parent
    De la Rionda's Interviews are an American Phenom (none / 0) (#53)
    by RickyJ on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:01:44 AM EST
    In almost all other countries of the world, the police and prosecutors are separate entities with different chains of command.  Police departments are supposed to be independent investigators who will interview parties both for the prosecution and defense with the results handed to both.  The type of interview Assistant Prosecutor Bernie (and Crump before him) did with DeeDee would be illegal in most other countries.  And as a practical matter, it certainly wasn't a search for the truth.

    Parent
    I Don't Get It (none / 0) (#38)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:13:08 AM EST

    I don't see any break in the sidewalk. Do you mean some other 'path'?

    there was no break (none / 0) (#158)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:30:27 PM EST
    Sorry about that. I misinterpreted a video-walkthough I watched.

    Parent
    Photos And A Gal Pal (none / 0) (#45)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:24:11 AM EST
    I want to see photographs of the entire crime scene, showing the object markers in relation to one another, the buildings and the sidewalks.

    I want to see a photo of the headphones/earphones. Hopefully there is something in the record that will clear up where they were before Martin's body was rolled over.

    Did anyone ask Dee Dee if she told her story to anyone before Crump? A teenage girl isn't keeping that to herself, so her story is badly in need of a least one corroborating witness.

    Not on topic, but I want to get the word out that rumors about the gun failing to chamber the next round are contradicted by Ciesla's report. It's near the bottom of page 20.

    Thank you very much (none / 0) (#48)
    by J Upchurch on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:33:42 AM EST
    I may try to reproduce your annotations in Google Earth.

    Confession vs. Admission (none / 0) (#49)
    by cboldt on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:45:05 AM EST
    Jearlyn, have you seen the state's Motion for protection of evidence?  It cites "confessions" and other reasons for withholding certain evidence from the public.  It lumps in the voice stress test (calls them "certain tests" or something indefinite) with the anonymous tip that Zimmerman is a racist, as items that should be withheld from the public because they are prejudicial against Zimmerman, and would taint the jury pool.

    But, I was of a mind that a confession necessarily involves an admission of guilt, and if a defendant's statements are not an admission of guilt, then they are not a confession.  So, I did just a tiny bit of research, and found case law and an FL Attorney General opinion letter on the subject. See Advisory Legal Opinion - AGO 84-33

    only such portions of the initial complaint and arrest report in a criminal case file which reveal the "substance of a confession," i.e., the material parts of a statement made by a person charged with commission of a crime in which he or she acknowledges guilt of the essential elements of the act or acts constituting the entire criminal offense, is exempted from the provisions of s 119.07(1)(a), F.S., and if such exemption is asserted by the custodian of such records, the custodian shall delete or excise only that portion of the record for which the exemption is asserted and the remainder of the record must be provided for inspection and examination as provided in s 119.07(1), F.S.

    I believe that Zimmerman's interviews are not in the nature of confession, and that the state will lose it's motion to exempt those from public records.

    Confession vs. Admission of Firing Shot (none / 0) (#72)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:56:21 PM EST
    How can you believe the statements weren't confessions if you don't know what Zimmerman said?

    Parent
    What is a confession? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by cboldt on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:19:48 PM EST
    The reason I don't think any of Zimmerman's statements to police are in the nature of confession, is that confession is an admission of wrong.  Technically, a confession to the crime is a statement admitting all of the elements, with no excuse or legal justification.

    So, for murder 2, Zimmerman would have to admit he killed Martin in cold blood - with a depraved heart, indifferent as to whether Martin lived or died.  I don't believe any of Zimmerman's statements have that quality.

    Perhaps, by doing an NBC style edit, one could compose what looks like a confession.  Say, for example, that "I shot him because he was grabbing for my gun, and said he was going to kill me.  I could feel the cold of the grass as I grabbed the gun out of its holster, and there was blood coming out of my nose."  Apply the NBC style edit, and you get "I shot him [in] cold blood."

    But short of that, I believe Zimmerman's statements all describe how he came to the belief that he was at risk of serious injury or death.  The reason I think that is SPD released him after interrogating him; and the basis Serino provides for charging is not that Zimmerman admitted wrong, but by that legal guffaw of converting "got out of his truck" and "didn't defuse the verbal exchange" into legal wrongs.

    Parent

    General Q: Is it commonplace for someone in (none / 0) (#52)
    by Mary2012 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:00:56 AM EST
    a self-defense case to issue multiple statements?

    not really issuing statements so much as (none / 0) (#98)
    by willisnewton on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:32:27 PM EST
    telling his story to different investigators at different times.  As long as someone is volunteering to talk to officers and investigators, the cops will let them go on all night.  We don't know what tactics or demeanor the investigators used to get GZ to speak out, but when and if we do hear about it don't be surprised if they are very friendly and seem to be taking his side.  They are not, necessarily taking his side, just making sure they do their jobs and get him on the record with his version of the events.  "Give 'em enough rope"  is the old saying, "and they will hang themselves."  For whatever reason, the first night they let him go home but did not close the investigation.  

    At the bond hearing the prosecution characterized these talks as "five times" that he gave a statement.  One it seems was videotaped the first night.  Another possible "statement" was the video walk thru done the next day with his father present.  Then GZ was given what the NYT called his harshest grilling back at the cop shop afterwards.  Maybe they switched investigators at some point.  

    I could see 3-1-1,  or 2-1-2 or maybe they don't count the walk thru as a statement?  I don't know.

    Parent

    the clerk (none / 0) (#56)
    by labrat on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:42:45 AM EST
    Did anyone interview the 7-11 clerk that waited on TM? I have seen no reference to it in any of the discovery reports. When TM is paying for his items - it appears that he may have asked the clerk for something. You can see the clerk raise his hands (as if he's saying no I don't have that). I wonder what was said there.

    Don't know what, if any, (none / 0) (#59)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:20:04 AM EST
    importance it bears, but have the descriptions of Trayvon Martin's clothing been clarified?   Zimmerman and the two police officers seem agreed on the dark-colored hooded sweat shirt (one police officer refers to it as a black sweater) and white kicks.   But, the pants vary, from blue jeans or sweat pants (Z), to blue jeans (one officer) and light-colored shorts (another officer).  The 7-ll tapes show long khaki-colored pants, as well as the dark sweatshirt with the hood up, and white kicks.

    Pants (none / 0) (#81)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:48:44 PM EST
    In the property log, p. 10, they are called 'pants', without further description.

    The EMTs may have cut the pants to attach monitor pads to the legs. The officer who reported 'shorts', Joseph Santiago, p. 16, reported Martin was face up and didn't mention seeing the EMTs or other officers working to revive him. Presumably he arrived after the EMTs were done.

    Parent

    Thanks, (none / 0) (#124)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:26:39 AM EST
    the thought of the long Khaki-colored pants having been cut during attempts at revival has been posited and is feasible.  However,  the differences in the record seems to await official clarification.  From my observation, it is interesting that other than the pants, other items of apparel are consistent in the reports.  

    Parent
    Context of Zimmerman's Call With Dispatcher (none / 0) (#65)
    by RickyJ on Thu May 24, 2012 at 04:40:23 PM EST
    I still don't have a clear picture of Zimmerman's movements in his vehicle after he first noticed Trayvon and at what momemt he stopped and later got out.  Is the following the general consensus?

    Zimmerman first noticed Martin by the clubhouse and saw him head up Twin Trees Road.  Then Zimmerman drove past Martin on Twin Trees and then stopped at the right angle bend close to where the incident happened.  Then Martin walked by the vehicle, catching a good view of Zimmerman, and then either kept going down Twin Trees and went through a cut through between houses to get to the walk or else went directly to the walk.  In either case, Zimmerman lost sight of him but then got out of his car and walked east towards Retreat View Circle in order to see if he could catch sight of Martin again.  

    I assume that what bothered Martin was Zimmerman following by the van plus a later sighting of him on foot going towards RVC.

    That's pretty close (none / 0) (#89)
    by amateur on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:22:57 PM EST
    to my sense, but I don't believe GZ parked near the cut through until TM ran through there.  It would have been a very inconvenient location to observe his subject from since he would have been behind him, unless he really did turn his truck around to face the other direction in order to watch him.  In that case you would expect him to be parked closer to the clubhouse and not right at the cut through, where he likely would not have been able to see TM.  Of course, we don't know exactly where he was parked or facing which direction, only that he told the dispatcher he was parked at a cut through.

    Parent
    My Theory (none / 0) (#110)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:40:46 AM EST
    All that follows is my speculation, unless otherwise noted.

    Zimmerman was driving north on the western leg of Retreat View Circle when he first saw Martin.

    Serino's March 13 report (p. 42) says  that Zimmerman saw Martin 'entering the gated community of the Reserve [sic] at Twin Lakes on foot, walking between the residences from the northwest.' (Why wasn't this redacted?)

    Martin came in by the shortcut. He crossed RVC, and walked between two houses toward the area south of the clubhouse. There is a sidewalk leading to that area, but Martin avoided it, walking close to one or more houses.

    George Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman Sr., said his son was suspicious 'that someone would not be walking on the street or the sidewalk, that they'd be walking right behind the townhomes.'

    Zimmerman did not call the police at this point. He would do that after parking.

    Zimmerman followed Retreat View Circle until it intersected Twin Trees Lane. He turned right, and parked at the bend, J8 on the grid.

    Martin had stopped walking east. He was 'walking around' in the rain, between the clubhouse and the pond. He was about 150 feet from Zimmerman's car, somewhere in rows L-N, columns 3-5.

    Zimmerman called the police, connecting at 7:09:34. About 7:10:32 (0:58 on the call) Zimmerman told the dispatcher Martin was 'coming towards me'. Martin passed Zimmerman's car between 7:11:02 and 7:11:10 (1:28-36).

    At 7:11:11 (1:37) Zimmerman said 'These a*holes, they always get away.' He put the car in gear, possibly audible on the tape at 7:11:14 and 7:11:17 (1:40 and 1:43).

    Zimmerman eased the car forward, and about 7:11:40 (2:06) Martin, around J/K18, started running. Zimmerman parked at K20, gears possibly audible at 7:11:43 and 7:11:48 (2:09 and 2:14).

    Parent

    re: (Why wasn't this redacted?) (none / 0) (#126)
    by amateur on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:30:33 AM EST
    He seems to indicate that GZ indicated where he saw him enter on the call to dispatch, but in fact he doesn't say anything about where he first observed TM on that call.  Chock that up to police error.

    Parent
    Frank Taafe (none / 0) (#140)
    by DebFrmHell on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:18:07 PM EST
    IIRC, Frank Taafe lives right at that shortcut.  I am curious as to whether GZ got a call from him shortly before the call to non-911.

    I have wondered for a while if he was the one that started all of this mess and why GZ would automatically consider TM to be suspicious.  Anywhoo, it would bring in all sorts of questions if true.

    I thought the shortcut from Oregon was what RZ was talking about when referring to someone not being on the street or a sidewalk.

    Your scenario is very logical to me.  (golf claps)

    Parent

    About The Shortcut (none / 0) (#203)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 06:30:55 AM EST
    I thought the shortcut from Oregon was what RZ was talking about when referring to someone not being on the street or a sidewalk.

    It is reported that the shortcut was routinely used by residents. I don't think using it would be all that suspicious by itself.

    If Robert Zimmerman was talking about how Martin entered the complex, I think he would have said that.

    Parent

    what about deedee saying mailbox area? (none / 0) (#151)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    You and I are in agreement on most of this, I just think that DeeDee may be confirming that TM waited out some rain by the mailbox pagoda.  

    Perhaps she is wrong, I have not heard her first recording w Martin's lawyer Crump and ABC news.  It's possible she gleaned this detail accidentally, the way many have sicne GZ speaks about the mailboxes in his call but not expressly placing TM there.  

    I do think TM came in by the short cut and was spotted AFTER he made it to the street.  I think GZ would tell this suspicious behavior directly to operator if he had witnessed it.  I think he inferred it later and that's how his father gets the "behind the buildings" into his story.  

    And of course I have no idea the route TM took to the mailboxes, but I think he waited out the rain there and would have said as much to DeeDee.  

    I also think his car moves, shadowing TM causing him to run.  There may or may not be a U turn in there someplace.  

    I put it at 34 seconds to pass the car, and 30 more to reach the corner and start running in a last minute feint to try and sucker the car into turning south first, possibly.   TM never looks back, and GZ misses seeing him turn into the dog walk via the dirt path that cuts the corner.  

    GZ gets out and takes ten seconds to secure his gear.  Then in 3 seconds of running he's already lost sight and possibly a signLINE on TM by virtue of his position.  Here is where he says "effin-punks.whatever" but he keeps jogging until advised "We don't need you to do that" and says "he ran," meaning he has lost sight.  

    I don't think Frank Taaffe's position is possible with the timeline.  I'm unsure why he thinks he knows.  

    Frank being "the tipoff man" is CT until we know phone logs, but certainly a valid question to ponder.  

    I have google maps distance plots for this on my flickr "Set"
    but havent captioned them all yet.  


    Parent

    I wonder if the prosecution or defense has (none / 0) (#155)
    by Angel on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:03:49 PM EST
    mockups as good as yours!

    Parent
    they don't need them. (none / 0) (#213)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:45:59 PM EST
    My mockups are obsessively foolish.  They have the real data.  

    But, lacking those....  people love to speculate.  A lot of what happened isn't really relevant.  Someone closed a gap.  Someone made the altercation turn physical.  No one seems to have really witnessed it.  

    I worked for many years as a cinematographer however, and am familiar with talking location photos and planning film shoot based on selective angles and distances and sight lines.  This stuff is fascinating to me.  I know lenses and the tricks forced perspectives play on one's ability to judge distance.  As a focus puller, one gets good at judging distance from camera in order to manually change focus on a lens with a small depth of field as actors move about a set or location at night.

    Google Earth is amazing too.  We never had that when I was younger.    We always had to scout locations and take photos ourselves, and print them out and glue them together into panoramas.  It was a pain figuring out where to park vehicles, route cables, bribe neighbors, etc.  Still is, I just don't always have to be the one to do it.  

    Parent

    Doubting Dee Dee (none / 0) (#157)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:22:09 PM EST
    Zimmerman described Martin walking around in the rain in real time. Dee Dee came up with the mailboxes an unknown number of weeks later.

    That's before we even look at how credible a witness Dee Dee is.

    Parent

    DeeDee's version, with TM at the mailboxes, (none / 0) (#160)
    by MJW on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:30:30 PM EST
    seems to require Martin stand under the mailbox area roof from 6:53, when the phone disconnected, until after 7:09, when Zimmerman called the police.  That's around 16 minutes.  I can't see Zimmerman describing Martin as walking around if that were the case.

    Parent
    I find that hard to believe -- a 16 min stay at (none / 0) (#177)
    by Mary2012 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 05:51:21 PM EST
    the mailboxes.  TM might've ducked into an  apartment complex adjacent to the Retreat for at least part of that time span, perhaps even lost track of time for a short while talking to Dee Dee while waiting for the rain to let up.

    It would be helpful to know when GZ left to go on errands to get an idea re what time TM entered the Retreat via the shortcut.

    Parent

    Waiting (none / 0) (#211)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:32:25 PM EST

    If Zimmerman saw Martin enter the complex, he waited that sixteen minutes before calling the police. Was watching Martin stand in front of mailboxes that much fun?

    Parent
    based on what? (none / 0) (#215)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 01:00:19 PM EST
    My guess is that GZ is describing actions TM did between the time the two intersected paths near the 1300 block of RVC.  I can't know when that was, but I'd guess it was shortly before TM walked from there to the mailboxes.  

    We are going to have to disagree, you and I, nomatter.  But we seem to agree ( i think?) that GZ probably moved his car as TM approached the cut thru, and that's the part that seems to have a bearing on the case to me.   We seem to agree GZ was near J8 on the grid...

    I'm not sure what is important about what came before that, since at that point no one was acting badly.  And yes, there is nothing illegal about shadowing a pedestrian with a vehicle but it may have unnerved TM and it may also speak to the mindset of GZ if this question has already been established as being true or false in GZ's own statements.

    If he claims he did not move, I don't necessarily believe him. But if he admits he did, then I'm curious what he says and if it is physically possible.  The actions and words of Frank Taaffe are troubling to me.  He's done his friend no favor in misrepresenting what he was told or what he knows.  

    Parent

    Based On Dee Dee (none / 0) (#217)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 02:08:43 PM EST
    I don't think you've considered how Dee Dee's statement to de la Rionda relates to the timeline.

    Recently you mentioned the phones reconnecting after Martin started running, which you and I agreed on long ago. Dee Dee doesn't agree. She told de la Rionda that Martin started running after that reconnection.

    She also told de la Rionda that the earlier drop and reconnection happened about the time Martin arrived at the mailbox shelter. That is what MJW, Mary2012, and I have been discussing.

    If I'm understanding Dee Dee correctly, she said that the call dropped after Martin said he was going to run to the shelter, and he had reached it when the call reconnected. If that's not exactly what she meant, it's still clear that the drop and reconnection happened at about that time.

    The call was 18 minutes, and overlapped Zimmerman's by two minutes. That's what the 16 minutes is based on. Is that what you were asking?


    Parent

    okay, cool. (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:58:56 PM EST
    But i think the drop and reconnect at that time was a call waiting call from a non Tmobile number that Trayvon answered and dismissed while by the mailboxes, if indeed he was ever there.  

    But don't quote me on that one.. I've not fully examined this line of thinking yet.  I just recall it being discussed elsewhere.  That's why I'm asking you the questions.  I want to see what you mean.  

    Parent

    Frank Taafe says he faced west but (none / 0) (#111)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:41:44 AM EST
    What does Frank Taaffe know?  He claims in a tv news report to have heard "from George" that TM did a full circle around his truck.  But this statement, in the context of the tv report comes right when FT is demonstrating where he felt the truck was, facing west on Twin Trees in a spot where four trees are in a line between him and the mailbox pagoda.  

    Frank Taaffe screenshot from TV report
    http://tinyurl.com/cmc83uv

    map illustration
    http://tinyurl.com/89t63q5

    The thing that struck me about the west facing truck is that it can be told in a manner where GZ never moved his vehicle.  I'm not sure the legal significance of that, but there you go.  If FT is pushing a false narrative he's thought it out to that level.  If GZ is pushing a false narrative, he's used his friend to do so.  If GZ is telling the truth then we just have to take his word for it, since there isn't any evidence.  

    If however he first spotted TM when TM was near the 1300 block of RVC, near Frank Taaffe's house, then he was already "following" TM just by heading for the front gate, whether that was his intention or not.  Then, if he pulled even or past the mailboxes, TM passed him on his way home, but maybe that was semi-threatening to GZ.  Some second hand accounts make something out of GZ rolling up his window at this time.  

    It takes TM 34 seconds to get from

    "Yeah, now he's coming towards me."

    to

    "These axxholes they always get away."

    which suggests to me that GZ is parked less than 120-140 feet from the mailboxes, given that 4 feet per second is an average walk for a full height person.  120 feet is not far enough to get to Frank's west-facing spot.  

    Parent

    Walkin Speed (none / 0) (#114)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 08:12:59 AM EST
    4 feet per second is an average walk for a full height person.

    Everything I've seen on the web agrees 5 fps = 3 mph is average for an adult male, and Martin was a little above average in height.

    Parent

    fair enough look forward to your maps. (none / 0) (#152)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:37:28 PM EST
    I'll see what that does to mine.  

    Parent
    still doesn't make it past TF's car (none / 0) (#161)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:31:03 PM EST
    5fps still doesnt make it past FT's invisible car in 34 seconds.

    link is here
    http://tinyurl.com/7gylxmj

    here is another map, showing TM's possible move past FT's invisible car.  It seems at minimum to be 213 feet, or at 5 fps, an elapsed time of 42.6 seconds.

    http://tinyurl.com/8yyredm

    If you assume that TM moves in the exact second after GZ says this

    Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...
    Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
    Dispatcher: OK...
    Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.

    then he has from 0:49 until 1:37 to get past the car.  That's 48 seconds, enough time to pass the FT car but it supposes GZ ignores the movement while he says this:

    Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
    Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
    Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?
    Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

    So, given a head start, and walking at 5fps, TM COULD conceivably make it to the tail of FT's invisible car.  Of course, circling the car as FT claims is going to take more time...  and would seem to merit a comment from GZ, which it does not.  

    I think it's fair to give TM a little head start but not the whole ten or twelve seconds.  What's your opinion?  And what's your opinion of the gear shift sounding noises that come with "these axxholes always get away?

    I think the car is backed into a driveway and then takes off forward if those are indeed gearshift noises, which places the car here at J10-14, facing the clubhouse at first and then trailing the teen after first backing into a driveway to U-turn, likely the same maneuver that was used to get the parking spot to begin with.  Or the opposite, same effect.  

    grid here
    http://tinyurl.com/ckaq648

    One of my basic problems with FT's invisible car position is that TM had other choices for his route if the car was so far back.  Why not go behind the townhouse to his right front?  Or take RVC the long way home?  That's another reason I think the car was closer, like at J8 as others are saying.  

    Parent

    Willis, please stop (none / 0) (#195)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 26, 2012 at 02:07:23 AM EST
    representing your own calculations as fact. However you come up with them, they are not official numbers, they are your calculation, and they are not undisputed fact.

    And please do not present disputed and unconfirmed information as fact -- or  list things you believe happened and then state the list is  "things we can all agree on." You really need to get your own blog if you don't want to follow the rules here.

    Parent

    I'm certainly trying to follow your rules! (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 01:49:40 PM EST
    Distances on a map are as close to fact as one can get.  Speculation about where people were, or objects are found are not claimed to be undisputed facts by me.  They are often best guesses and hypotheticals.  That's why I try to qualify my opinions whenever possible, and provide citation and photos.  

    Nomatter and I are coming to common consensus on many things despite approaching with an obviously different bias. No one here seems to have all of the information at the ready and so we are like the parable of the blind men at various ends of an elephant.   To make matters worse, yes there is misinformation being put forth all the time.  

    I'm making a sincere effort not to contribute to that situation. You have your discretion as moderator to delete anything you think I am falsely presenting as fact, and you seem to do so liberally despite my intentions to qualify my opinions as my own.  

    No one knows yet what GZ told investigators.  I don't claim to know what he told them, but I do recall what his surrogates put forth on several occasions.  Please let this serve as a general disclaimer that I am speculating about many many things, as are most who post here.  Absent the actual data, one is forced to make educated guesses.  

    I do have my own site, but it is not a discussion site, it is just a flickr page where I park visual notes.  I've compiled my latest ideas here, if anyone is interested.  I think it places the objects entered into evidence fairly well and raises some real questions as to how the altercation may have migrated over a distance that has already been determined by the prosecution, but has not been made public.  

    http://tinyurl.com/8xjxm4y

    I'm very curious for those with other eyes and other opinions to comment on what I present on this flickr page.  My opinions are often changed by what is presented here, and I'm doing my best to keep an open mind.  

    For the record, I believe a great deal of what GZ seems to be claiming is the truth, with corroborating evidence aplenty to support it.  And I think the prosecution has a very thin case to present, with no credible witness to the start of the fight, which is of course a key thing to consider.  But I am continually troubled by things that don't yet seem to fit, and so I remain skeptical in many ways.  An innocent man has less to fear than a guilty one in my opinion. I also believe GZ can get a fair trial, whereas some here will not say this, nor will they say the opposite.  

    It's no fun being the odd man out so often.  Trust me, I am no troll who gets any satisfaction on being a naysayer or whatever it is that trolls seem to enjoy.  

    Thanks for your patience with me.  I don't wish to upset the process here, which I greatly respect.  The knowledge of this group outweighs the combined knowledge of TV reporters and pundits by a measure on the Reichter scale, I'd opine. The value of a spirited debate and the combined eyes and ears invaluable.  But a social club of like minded types of any sort suffers from group-think in the absence of dissenting opinions.  

    Parent

    Taaffe Vs. The Mailboxes (none / 0) (#123)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:18:33 AM EST
    FT is demonstrating where he felt the truck was, facing west on Twin Trees in a spot where four trees are in a line between him and the mailbox pagoda.

    Has Taaffe said he thinks Martin was at the mailboxes? That would surprise me, since it makes Zimmerman a liar.

    Before I heard Dee Dee's interview with de la Rionda I thought she might be telling the truth.

    She's telling a rehearsed story. When a question is off her script, she hesitates and hints for coaching, or even asks for it outright.

    Parent

    No Consensus (none / 0) (#107)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 04:16:55 AM EST
    Lots of speculation.

    I'll offer my theory in another comment. In this one I'll discuss yours.

    Why would Zimmerman want to get ahead of Martin, and depend on mirrors to watch him? Why would he park so far from him?

    If Zimmerman was expecting Martin to follow the bend of Twin Trees Lane, why did he seem surprised when it happened? 'Now he's coming towards me.' Why did he interpret this action as 'coming to check me out?'

    I've never believed Martin was 'just walking down the street', because I've never believed these statements by Zimmerman were a reaction to someone walking around a bend.

    If Martin walked in almost any other direction, he would soon be lost to Zimmerman's sight. That brings us back to why Zimmerman would park so far away.


    Parent

    In Any Scenario, (none / 0) (#117)
    by RickyJ on Fri May 25, 2012 at 08:36:56 AM EST
    Zimmerman's actions had to have annoyed Martin.  I presume that Z was in his car until Martin started running.  I think we are sure that Zimmerman was stationary at the point Martin walked by the vehicle.  So Zimmerman was apparently moving the vehicle short distances and then stopping and starting again.

    Parent
    It's a straight line from within the shared yards (none / 0) (#70)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:46:48 PM EST
    I get what you are saying in that from the back yard, Trayvon Martin would probably have to go east between a cut-through to access Brandy Green's front door.  But if he were to enter Brandy Green's patio door (since he liked to sit on the porch and chat on the phone), then Trayvon Martin would using the shortest, most practical path by using the shared backyard sidewalk.

    the dog walk leads to TM's back door - straight (none / 0) (#84)
    by willisnewton on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:25:02 PM EST
    In a straight line. I'm not sure what jeralyn is talking about.  The Geraldo show reporter is driving north on Tiwn trees in the video until he reaches the west end of the cut thru path.  There are some other random shots of the compound, but go figure.  It's what is known as B-roll, just shots of the area.  

    Parent
    Sorry, Correction (none / 0) (#153)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:49:16 PM EST
    I was wrong about the path winding before you get to the Green's.  I misinterpreted the video walkthough I watched showing winding paths through the neighborhood. Sorry, I'm also deleting my marked up photos showing a break. Thanks for letting me know.

    Parent
    Zimmerman's Contradictory Statements (none / 0) (#76)
    by RickyJ on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:39:55 PM EST
    "Defendant (Zimmerman) has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses," the prosecutors said in their court filing.

    They said the statements by Zimmerman were admissible in court and "in conjunction with other statements and evidence help to establish defendant's guilt in this case."

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE84O00020120525

    What I find amazing is that the previous prosecutors seemed to be totally unaware of these contradictions.

    They Would Say That (none / 0) (#79)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:16:16 PM EST

    Maybe the previous prosecutors ignored the contradictions because they are trivial. It would be rare not to have a few minor inconsistencies.

    The present prosecutors are naturally going to do their best to make it look like they have a case.

    Parent

    Probably talking about DeeDee (none / 0) (#80)
    by J Upchurch on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:47:26 PM EST
    Since the previous prosecutor had all the other witness statements except DeeDee, they are probably talking about her. After listening how the State Attorney was leading her, I have some doubt that she could survive a hostile cross examination. Also when you filter out her opinions it isn't apparent that her statements actually add up to manslaughter much less 2nd degree murder.

    If Zimmerman actually said that Martin grabbed his pistol, then the absence of fingerprints would be damaging.  

    Parent

    Witnesses (none / 0) (#83)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:08:51 PM EST
    Yes, Dee Dee's statement conflicts significantly with Zimmerman's police call and what's been reported about his statements. I overlooked the word 'witnesses'. I was thinking of the alleged internal contradictions and the physical evidence.

    The Teacher told CNN that the fight was on the grass. I don't remember seeing in the official records that she was asked about that, but it may be in the remaining discovery.

    John says the fight was on the concrete, and he was closer. That illustrates my point. The prosecution is doing their best to make their case sound good, but until we know what their evidence is we can't judge its weight.

    I've mentioned before that if Martin and Zimmerman were fighting over the gun, I wouldn't expect usable prints.

    Parent

    I'd like to see the evidence map (none / 0) (#87)
    by willisnewton on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:53:29 PM EST
    But even without it, there are tons of clues within the photos released the help place the objects in context.  

    The lighted keychain flashlight is between the T intersection of the cut thru and dog walk sidewalks, on the edge of the sidewalk right next to a large orange/brown maple leaf that is visible in another photo that show the body under a yellow tarp.  Most media outlets don't run this photo since it shows the body.

    leaf/tree/bag/body photo here  (warning - graphic photo)
    http://tinyurl.com/c5cqcc7

    Of course most of all I'd like to see the video walk-thru and other statements made by GZ.  I'm guessing the "five times" number means he gave his story twice on the night, once in the walk thru and two more times afterwards, at the station?  Or was it 3-1-1, or some other pattern?  

    As near as I can make it, the body is 40 feet away.  The BLACK (non-working?) flashlight and TM's cell phone are near the body's location and on a triangle with OM-6, which may be the body or the shell casing.  I'm waiting for full clarification on that one.  OM-8 may indeed be the shell casing, but what is 6? I've not seen a photo that includes OM-8 tag itself.  

    (what ever happened to the iconic white outline around a murder victim's body?) Of course the body was moved in efforts to rescue the youth.  

    I think the distance from the body to the keychain flashlight is a problem for the defense.  It suggests the altercation started in one place and ended more than 12-13 yards away.  That's a first down in football, and then some.  It seems like a deliberate distance to travel and not what a sucker punch to the ground would look like.  And it seems way off the path for GZ to be returning to his vehicle.  

    There is a tan bag like from 7Eleven roughly midway between the keys and the body.  I've been calling this the "debris field" after the shipwreck term.  

    If, as someone has already suggested, he dropped the keys post-mortem, then it looks like he was about to flee the scene of a crime.  I don't think that was what happened.  He stuck around to get his picture taken.  

    I'm very curious about the "foot chase" angle.  

    The keys (none / 0) (#97)
    by Redbrow on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:28:37 PM EST
    could have been tossed. Imagine if you were holding something in your hand when suddenly you get sucker-punched in the nose with such force that you lose your balance and fall backwards.

    Would you not instinctively throw your arms back while emptying and flattening your palms in order to break the fall, inadvertently tossing whatever was in your hand behind you with considerable force?

    Parent

    statue of liberty pass? or hail mary? (none / 0) (#115)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 08:13:57 AM EST
    That's possible.  I guess we will hear what GZ had to say about the keys eventually.  He may say "I don't remember."  

    Seems more likely, given the position, that the owner of the keys was standing on the sidewalk right where his path to(wards) his vehicle intersects with the path to TM's home, and that the two met there for an initial exchange of some kind.  

    But it could also be that GZ was called out to by a figure (TM, why are you following me?)  from near where the tan bag was found, causing him to drop his keys and grab for his phone/gun/larger flashlight.  

    Slinging them 40 feet or more is possible but you have to admit unlikely for them to land right there where another possibility is so much more likely.  Plus, there is the dropped (non-working) black flashlight near the body.  One gets tossed 40 feet and the other falls to the ground?  Hmmm.  

    Parent

    Tossing out possibilities. (none / 0) (#165)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:51:58 PM EST
    Keys are much lighter than a flashlight and were more than likely held in his stronger hand. Right handed people almost always use keys with their right hand. The scenario I described made it clear that the dropping of objects held in hand was reflexive and any tossing was inadvertent. It was not an intentional football style pass.

    I am merely pointing out there are other explanations other than the keys were dropped exactly at his feet. That is a baseless assumption unless proven otherwise with solid evidence.

    Parent

    Bagging And Tagging (none / 0) (#119)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 09:13:39 AM EST
    Thanks for the pictures. They're extremely helpful.


    I've not seen a photo that includes OM-8 tag itself.

    Nor I. I'm starting to think "8" was a misreading of someone's handwritten "6".

    I thought the casing was the last item collected. Looking at the reports again, I'm not sure. Sgt. Santiago (p. 16) called someone to the scene with a gizmo to work on the cell phone. It's not clear how long that took, so the cell phone might have been collected last. That would make the casing OM-6 as conjectured, and the phone OM-7 as it is in fact.

    There are several copies of the property log, attached to different reports. I checked the OM numbers for all of them, and they're all the same. If it was an error, it wasn't corrected.

    what ever happened to the iconic white outline around a murder victim's body?

    I vaguely recall reading that it's a movie/TV thing, rarely if ever done in real life.
     

    Parent
    good deductive work re 6 or 8? (none / 0) (#121)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:09:41 AM EST
    If they worked in numerical order we know that they moved the body before finding the shell casing.  And like you said, they had to call for the gizmo that reads info off of a stranger's cell phone.  I'd bet they were waiting for it while the body was finally moved away.  The 567 photo also works the scene from north to south, the probable direction the altercation moved.  

    here is what I took notes as:

    ONE honda keys w small flashlight that was on
    TWO tan bag (7Eleven color) - found on sidewalk
    THREE white bag w blood
    FOUR first aid kid
    FIVE black flashlight in grass

    SEVEN TMs Cell phone
    EIGHT Iced tea can

    SIX is the body??? or the shell, mis-marked as 8

    That's roughly north to south, and allows for some delay regarding the body and cell phone's special handling.  The delay/dispute about eight is that the Ice tea seems to have been in the hoodie pocket first but fell out when the body was moved for rescue efforts, and noted as such by one officer.  

    I'm curious about the white bag - looks like maybe a wal-mart bag?  and the idea that a resident was asked to retrieve some plastic that was used to cover up the entry wound?  This is a way to give CPR I guess without getting someone else's blood on you - a potential health hazard to the rescuer.  My hunch is that is is not connected to the action prior to the shot being fired.  But again, we can't know for sure at this time and we may never know.  I did think that I read it was sent for testing?  

    Parent

    OM-8 is the casing (none / 0) (#129)
    by amateur on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:42:13 AM EST
    according to the police report.  The first officer to attempt cpr used the plastic bag to seal the wound to allow air to flow into the lungs without going right back out the hole in TM's chest. (He reports hearing a gurgling sound when he attempts cpr, indicating the body has a leak.  He then asks for a plastic bag) That's according to the police report but I don't have a page number for you.

    Parent
    The Flashlight and Flashlight Key Chain (none / 0) (#91)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:40:00 PM EST
    Perhaps someone here knows the answer to whether the black flashlight and the flashlight key chain were Zimmerman's.  I've seen many people assert they were, but I haven't yet found anything in the evidence saying so.  As far as I can see, the discovery PDF seems to always list the owner as unknown.  Is there a source that establishes the actual owner?  I tried without success to find out if Zimmerman's truck (SUV?) was a Honda.

    I think it's slightly odd that the key chain had only one key on it.  Most people I know keep all their keys on one key chain.

    The flashlight was turned on (none / 0) (#92)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:49:13 PM EST
    (or so I read), which would tend to suggest it was Zimmerman's, but I'd still like to know for sure whether it was or not.

    Parent
    The key chain flash light, that is (none / 0) (#93)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 10:53:05 PM EST
    -- not the black flashlight.

    Parent
    Flashlight On? (none / 0) (#200)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 05:07:26 AM EST
    The flashlight was turned on (or so I read)

    Read where?

    It's not in any of the reports from the scene.

    Parent

    Gilbreath (none / 0) (#94)
    by DebFrmHell on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:05:55 PM EST
    discussed the flashlights during the bond hearing.  He stated that Zimmerman had a tactical flashlight and a key ring with a small flashlight attached.  I objected to the use of the word "tactical" when describing what is basically a minimag.

    One key doesn't bother me.  The townhouses have garages and he probably used his garage door opener for access to the interior of his house.

    I have a set of keys to my house on my key ring and I can't say that I have used them once in the last year+.

    Parent

    Thank you very much (none / 0) (#96)
    by MJW on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:26:15 PM EST
    That's a loose end that been bothering me.

    Parent
    re: key -Sanford PD didn't know GZ drove to scene (none / 0) (#95)
    by willisnewton on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:20:33 PM EST
    I wonder if that colored the way they entered evidence?  

    But there is an easier explanation.  I think the non-listing of ownership is just a way to remain neutral. Items found in a person's pocket or on their person are theirs.  "Stuff on the ground" is stuff on the ground until it can be established by some other means than guesswork. (people ditch drugs all the time. Look at it that way  for a sec.)  The evidence form is not the time or place to assign ownership.

    Now I am guessing, but common sense tells me it wasn't Trayvon's honda key, I bet, and the flashlight was operating/ on / shining when found and logged as such.  

    Deductive reasoning would lead to think that the larger black flashlight was not working.  GZ takes ten seconds to exit the vehicle and so he may have been grabbing his pistol, keys, flashlight, etc in that time.  Some claim to hear him banging on the flashlight near 2:30-2:40 on the recoding of his call, as though discovering it was not working, or perhaps it stopped working.  At this point or after, he would have switched to his keychain flashlight.  Think how dark it was that a tiny light like this was deemed useful by him.  No wonder he missed TM the first time he passed the T.  He was also on the phone to the police operator at the time, and he'd just been jogging.  

    The bloody head iPhone photo shows GZ holding a cell phone to his ear, and the phone is in some kind of soft case.  Perhaps GZ is the type who wears his phone on his belt or belt line with a clip?  Some versions of his story mention reaching FOR his phone, not "reaching into his pocket for his phone" as the moment that he is sucker punched to the ground.  Would this be when he dropped his keys?  

    Or did he and TM spot one another across a distance, and GZ dropped his keys reaching for his pistol/black flashlight/ cell phone?  So many possibilities, but the idea that the keychain flashlight was not his seems like a long shot.  I just want to know what was happening when it fell, and if GZ knew he had dropped it.  Was his walk-about post-mortem an attempt to find his lost keys?  People do odd things in time of great stress.  

    Parent

    The interviews with "John" (none / 0) (#99)
    by rjarnold on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:54:35 PM EST
    are posted here on Youtube.

    In Addition to John's Interview, (none / 0) (#118)
    by RickyJ on Fri May 25, 2012 at 08:50:26 AM EST
    his sketches made during the long second interview would be very helpful.  I would hope they are on the website that Jeralyn has access to.

    Parent
    In the "second interview" John ... (none / 0) (#127)
    by Gandydancer on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:33:01 AM EST
    ...says the cries for help came closer over time. Implies GZ may have been knocked down at the "T", losing keys and flashlight, but may have scrambled/fled south before finally being pinned by TM in John's backyard. Is this inconsistent with anything we know?

    Parent
    Movement of the fight (none / 0) (#132)
    by amateur on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:54:25 AM EST
    seems to be indicated by a couple of witnesses.  It is assumed that it moved from the T but that's not definitive.  One witness indicates it was moving towards the T and Mary and Selma said it started "4 or 5 houses down" from where the body ended up.  Since the body ended up in the back yard of the second house from the end, that suggests the fight migrated towards the T.  It's possible the confrontation began further down and that after the fight began GZ attempted to get away in the direction of his truck.  That's pure speculation of course, and the reliability of the witnesses in this respect is shaky at best, but that might be the prosecution theory.

    Parent
    North to South (none / 0) (#137)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 11:48:46 AM EST
    I'm having a problem accessing the NY Times, so I can't listen to the audio right now. My recollection is that they were saying the fight must have started at the north end and moved south.

    The argument before the screams seems to have been close to the home of The Teacher (W18), and we know she lives at the north end.

    Parent

    Five Doors (none / 0) (#197)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:32:10 AM EST
    This is the relevant part of Mary Cutcher's statement, made on the telephone to Chris Serino on March 1.

    I can tell you there was no fighting going on at the time that the gun went off. Because we were both in the kitchen making coffee. The window was open. There was no fighting. And the fight that happened started way down the sidewalk, because the person on the very end of this block is the one who called the police originally, because the fight broke out. Now the kid got shot, way down here, you know, five doors down.

    That puts 'the one who called the police originally' in 2811. Was there a 911 call from that unit?

    Cutcher didn't say '4 or 5 houses down'. She said five exactly. Most important, this was not based on an observation of hers but on hearsay from neighbors.


    Parent

    scrambled, sure. Or chased after TM, enraged? (none / 0) (#138)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 11:49:09 AM EST
    Both are possible explanations.  Or there could be others.  

    My thoughts:

    There are other witnesses who seem to have the general impression the two moved from north to south.  If you re-examine what they are saying mostly leaving out what they think they SAW and just go by what they heard, it seems there is a small consensus about this direction of migration. It would be quite hard to prove anything by this in court however,  but it makes sense to me as a way the "debris field" can be explained.  

    There is what happened, and there is what can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to consider here.  

    The problem with GZ's surrogate's stories is that none of them include any move from "place where he is sucker punched" to "place where the body is found" that I can tell.  It's part and parcel of why his self defense tale seems plausible  - he never chased after or tried to detain the teen in these versions.  And yet here we have evidence that suggests the fight possibly started in one spot and ended in another.

    So there has to be more to the story if only GZ saying "I can't remember" why his keys are there.  

    Then we have riddles such as Frank Taaffe, who claims to at minimum have spoken to GZ post-shooting and before he made this appearance on local tv pinpointing what HE says is where GZ fell to the ground.  FT seems quite certain he knows where the car was parked and what way it faced, and where GZ was beaten to the ground.  What we don't know is whether or not GZ walked the scene with him or if he just spoke on the phone with GZ and FT is making his own assumptions.  FT is also telling the story of GZ's path differently than the father, who we know walked the scene with GZ and investigators prior to GZ's final questioning.

    Frank Taaffe points to his idea of GZ's grounding spot
    http://tinyurl.com/734wa6o

    best photo I can find that places location of body and keys
    http://tinyurl.com/7vwoccw

    google earth plotting distance, keys to body (aprox)
    http://tinyurl.com/c7685fy

    close up photo of Evidence marker one and keys and a leaf that links placement of keys to wider photo
    http://tinyurl.com/car3krj

    But what we know about this place where FT is standing is that the body was some 40 feet away, and the keychain flashlight was here.

    I'm not sure what the explanation is for any of this.

    Jeralyn doesn't want my posting longer that this, but what's left to discuss is FT's idea of where GZ walked vs RZ's very clear description of GZ's path east, then back west on ONLY the cut thru path, ending again seemingly at the T, more or less the location of the keys.

    Also some discussion needs to be had about the exact distance of the body from landmarks like utility covers and evidence markers, etc.  

    (also note dirt path behind FT that rounds the corner into the dog walk.  I think this is the only photo that shows it well, and that it may be significant in another issue.)

    Parent

    They sounded muted then clearer. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 03:05:01 PM EST
    He says the screams for help 'sounded like' they were getting closer, meaning they became less muffled, louder and clearer.

    It is possible Zimmerman's earlier cries for help were more successfully muted by Trayvon's hand covering Zimmerman's mouth, then Trayvon gave up on trying to mute the screaming and they sounded clearer and closer to the witness.

    Parent

    A one armed pin lasting 45 secs? (none / 0) (#169)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 03:26:37 PM EST
    This is all speculation, but entertaining.  I'm curious how long TM may have successfully muffled GZ by putting his hand to GZ's mouth.  Was this before or after or during slamming his head?  Are both possible at the same time?  And how long can you pin a man with one hand, using the other to muffle his voice?  And which part of the 911 call with the screams sounds muffled and which part doesn't?  

    I think the witnesses are describing a verbal exchange that is more pre-grappling than describing the final 45 seconds, but that's just the way I read them. I think there was some verbal prelude to anything physical and I also think the witnesses are generally agreeing that it went on for longer than "you got a problem/no/well now you do."  

    Perhaps both sides are right and the exchange was thus

    why are you following me?
    what are you doing here?
    do you have a problem?
    no
    You do now!  

    That's what, six or eight seconds?  Listening to the witnesses, and understanding when they all called in it seems the arguing exchange was longer than ten seconds.  But that's just my own impression.  What do others think?  

    GZ's surrogates are putting forth a short argument and a long physical struggle, it would seem.  

    We can't really know the time frame, can we?  We can infer something from the end of DeeDee's call, but that's all.  

    Others have tried this, I'm not sure what the consensus opinion was.  

    Parent

    Scuttling about (none / 0) (#172)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 04:08:30 PM EST
    Witness 'John' describes them changing location by a few feet just in the few seconds he observed them, all the while maintaining their positions of George on his back and Trayvon on top. Zimmerman was apparently struggling to get out from under Martin by pushing with his feet resulting in scuttling about on the ground.

    If Zimmerman maintained this scuttling pace the whole time with Trayvon constantly riding him, they could have possibly moved 10 feet, 20 feet or even more during the course of the altercation.

    Who knows exactly how Trayvon was muffling George other than George himself?  We have yet to see his official statement regarding the matter and to see if the prosecutor has any evidence to counter his claims.

    Parent

    Bernie de la Rionda's Questions (none / 0) (#133)
    by RickyJ on Fri May 25, 2012 at 11:13:24 AM EST
    He only was interested in getting John to say that he didn't hear noises of fists hitting a head or a head hitting concrete.  I think the prosecution's strategy is based, in large part, on convincing the jury that Zimmerman wasn't getting beat up enough to justify his shooting Martin.  I admit that I am at a loss to say what the "enough" point is.

    Parent
    That's correct (5.00 / 0) (#135)
    by NYShooter on Fri May 25, 2012 at 11:36:26 AM EST
    They'll use terms like "small cut" on back of head (which is what his wound looked like after cleaning up; bruised nose (which could be gotten from something as benign as a `headlock;') and, besides 'slight bruise to one finger,' virtually no damage (other than bullet hole) to TM.  

    Without any major new evidence I think GZ may have to take the stand in his own defense. Because all those thing are irrelevant if he can convince the jury that he was, in fact, in fear for his life or great bodily harm.

    From the comments I've read here it seems GZ took considerable effort to see that his gun was loaded to the max prior to the fight. That last bullet pushed into the clip (after sliding the mechanism which places a bullet into the chamber) is a problem. I'm sure the prosecutor will use it to describe GZ's state of mind, "locked and loaded."

    Parent

    That is a standard way (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:58:34 PM EST
    to carry a concealed gun and proves nothing other than Zimmerman paid attention during firearm training and knew what he was doing.

    Parent
    While I won't speculate (5.00 / 0) (#175)
    by NYShooter on Fri May 25, 2012 at 05:35:54 PM EST
    on Zimmerman's behavior, I would like to point out the issues and actions that the defense  is going to have to deal with, and/or rebut.

    As Poster, "Willis Newton," ably stated:

    "GZ also apparently loaded the ammunition clip full, them manually cocked the slide to chamber a round (bullet) into the firing position, then removed the clip and placed another round into the clip. This is the "fully loaded" method of carry."

    Having spent 3 ½ years in a far away place experiencing CQC, and sometimes even H2H combat, I don't care what Zimmerman knew or what you think is the proper way to carry a firearm. What I care about is what the jury will care about. And, a good prosecutor is going to ask, why, on a quick trip to a store, an off duty volunteer watch person went to the extra trouble, when his gun was already fully loaded, of going through the unnecessary steps of loading one extra bullet? What was he preparing for, or what was he afraid of?

    Now, don't answer me, answer the prosecutor, in a way that a lay jury would find reasonable.


    Parent

    His semi-automatic pistol was double-action only. (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MJW on Fri May 25, 2012 at 07:35:03 PM EST
    It could be safely carried with a with a chambered round, and doing so is often recommended for concealed carry.  There's little sense in carrying a weapon for protection if it can't be used quickly.

    Parent
    An answer (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by TerryMann on Sat May 26, 2012 at 11:13:29 AM EST
    "answer the prosecutor, in a way that a lay jury would find reasonable." -- Because if you really need to use your gun in self-defense, the extra time--and hand--it takes to chamber a round could mean the difference between living and dying.

    And let me repeat what others have said: it is common for people who carry a lot to keep a round in the chamber.

    Parent

    GZ chasing down suspect previously (none / 0) (#100)
    by Mary2012 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:55:47 PM EST
    As stated in one of the articles posted by Jeralyn earlier, same thread NYT: Race, Tragedy and Outrage Collide after a Shot in Florida:

    In October 2003, for example, on perhaps his greatest day in civic vigilance, Mr. Zimmerman chased after and assisted in the capture of a man who had stolen two 13-inch TV/DVD players from an Albertsons.

    Assuming this is an accurate report, I would be interested in knowing the details of this incident and in particular, GZ's role in it.

     

    Not New (none / 0) (#102)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:24:19 AM EST
    I've mentioned this in earlier comments.

    The thief was in a vehicle. Zimmerman called the police and followed in his own vehicle, keeping the thief in sight until the police arrived.

    It's in the phone logs. They are in order by date.

    Parent

    The phone logs provided are from 2004-2012 (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by Mary2012 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:13:02 AM EST
    while the article I quoted from states the incident occurred in October, 2003. Maybe I'm looking at the logs incorrectly -- they DO take some getting used to -- but I don't see anything from 2003?

    In any case, I was actually looking for some type of written statement documenting the incident in greater detail.  Thanks for letting me know it was a GZ-citizen-vehicular-pursuit (at least for a certain amount of time at which it turned into a police pursuit).  

    It is stated in the article, the details of which I'd like to know:

    Mr. Zimmerman chased after and assisted in the capture of a man

    For example, where did this take place, how long did GZ pursue before the police took over, what was GZ's speed, traffic description, how exactly did GZ assist in the capture, i.e., after a chase ends the suspect still has to be apprehended -- how exactly was that effected, did GZ actually participate, at least witness it, etc., etc.

    I was surprised to come across this little tidbit from 2003 after seeing numerous assertions GZ had no history of chasing after anyone (and therefore, it would be impossible he'd pursue/ stalk TM). I would like to have it added to the list of items missing from discovery.

    I do appreciate the logs provided; they'll come in handy I'm sure.  

    Parent

    You're Right. (none / 0) (#128)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:38:18 AM EST
    The logs start at 2004. I was confusing the 2003 incident with a later one.

    I mentioned both in an earlier comment.


    Parent

    request for Dershowitz link (none / 0) (#134)
    by lily on Fri May 25, 2012 at 11:30:38 AM EST
    I was unable to post this link on the other thread, since it was full.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYV5MuoVCQ

    Dershowitz challenging misinformation provided by the media responsible for public confusion and overreaction.

    Whether or not GZ was arrested is @ 5:08

    Parent

    personal insults to (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 26, 2012 at 02:26:14 AM EST
    Dershowitz deleted.

    Willis, watch it. You are repeatedly violating the rules here. You have only your opinion but you have started presenting yourself as an authority of some sort. Frequency of posting does not make you an expert.

    And your attacks on others -- from Taaffe to Dershowitz-- are not welcome here.

    You are moving from stating your opinion to lecturing others and labeling those with different opinions as "liars" or "bloviators."

    Parent

    Thanks for confirming that for me & for the (none / 0) (#176)
    by Mary2012 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 05:36:45 PM EST
    link to your previous comment.

    Parent
    That would be a bizarre... (none / 0) (#130)
    by Gandydancer on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:43:12 AM EST
    ...assertion, inasmuch as he told the dispatcher he was following before the dispatcher told him it wasn't "need[ed]". Can't say I have seen anyone say that. Nor do I see how it hurts his case.

    Parent
    Didn't see your post yesterday (none / 0) (#208)
    by Mary2012 on Sat May 26, 2012 at 08:58:50 AM EST
    That would be a bizarre [...] assertion, inasmuch as he told the dispatcher he was following before the dispatcher told him it wasn't "need[ed]". ...

    Exactly.  Still, the assertion has been made numerous times wrt what (might've) happened after the non-emergency call ended, i.e., not only during the call.  

    It still helps to know whether or not there were other similar instances and it will be up to a judge or jury and how the law is applied whether or not it helps/ hurts his case.  For me, it helps to get a better idea re who GZ is albeit from a very great distance!

       

    Parent

    Round Count (none / 0) (#131)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 10:48:12 AM EST
    The round count check is near the bottom of p. 20. The magazine held 6 of 7 rounds, and one live round was cleared from the chamber.

    The official report conflicts with rumors that the next round failed to chamber.

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#146)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:30:22 PM EST


    Parent
    Loose Round (none / 0) (#150)
    by Raoul on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:24:33 PM EST
    I believe the report said it was a loose round. I looked up what that means: Defective cartridge in which the bullet is loose in the cartridge case.


    Parent
    Context (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:13:17 PM EST
    Here it means the round is not in the magazine and no longer in the chamber. It is 'loose' inside the evidence bag it was presumably stored in.

    Parent
    Correct (none / 0) (#164)
    by Cylinder on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:45:52 PM EST
    The Firearms Lab used "loose rounds" to do their distance testing. They included that comment to account for the change in state of the evidence. In other words, they had six live rounds subitted and some of these rounds were used to conduct firearms testing to determine distance characteristics using the same clothing, magazine, rounds and forearm that were actually present at the encounter.

    Parent
    No Tests Yet (none / 0) (#190)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:14:09 AM EST

    I don't know what you're talking about, and I think you're confusing the issue.

    Ciesla determined there were six rounds in the magazine when it was collected. If any were used for tests, that was later.

    Parent

    Don't know about Z, (none / 0) (#136)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri May 25, 2012 at 11:46:15 AM EST
    .

    But I wear my IWB holster with a much larger 1911 on the right hip.  Riding in a vehicle is not a problem.

    .

    Right. (none / 0) (#141)
    by amateur on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:18:33 PM EST
    Without seeing them pointing in one direction or another we can't know where "down" is but the fact that they used houses as a measure of distance is what suggested to me that they might not mean from the T.  But again, I don't know that they are the most reliable witnesses or even what exactly they meant.  That's one thing that's not clear to me from the witness interviews, even the one quoted in Jeralyn's Witness #2 and #12 post (W-2).  Is she agreeing that it was towards her house or towards the T?  Without knowing where she lives on that row it's hard to makes sense of it.  

    All of this is why Wolfinger thought the case thin (none / 0) (#148)
    by willisnewton on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:36:55 PM EST
    I'm guessing, of course, but lacking a coherent witness to the START of the fight, it's difficult to ever prove what really happened.  

    Me personally I think it's clear GZ moved off of his innocent path to(wards) his vehicle the distance from the T to the body, some 45-50 feet south.  I don't know why, and I don't think anyone else does either.  And I'm not sure if that makes him guilty or not, either as IANAL.  

    And I don't know if GZ can credibly account for this move or not.  That's pretty much where I will be until we know what he told investigators.  I have my suspicions but they are just that, suspicions lacking in a firm proof.  

    But if his story is "sucker punched to the ground" it needs to be credibly  explained why his keys are up by the T and the body is down by John's patio, and the tan bag is in between.


    Parent

    Re: the New Black Panthers, (none / 0) (#143)
    by DizzyMissL on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:23:55 PM EST
    if "wanted dead or alive"does not imply violence, then I don't know what does.

    Was the "shadow" that (none / 0) (#144)
    by DizzyMissL on Fri May 25, 2012 at 12:24:54 PM EST
    was seen running towards the T or towards BGs?

    the purpose of posting the link (none / 0) (#154)
    by lily on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:53:19 PM EST
    was in response to a specific request by nomatternevermind about the question did or did not the police arrest GZ.

    What do you call the beatdown in which offenders have used the excuse of "justice for Trayvon" in statements to police.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/ugly-attacks-in-the-name-of-trayvon-martin/20 12/04/26/gIQABWlEjT_blog.html

    I call them a hoax (5.00 / 0) (#171)
    by Yman on Fri May 25, 2012 at 03:39:08 PM EST
    Example 1 - "I can tell you this without a doubt, 100% certainty, that Trayvon Martin was not the motivating factor in this incident," says Cpl. Chris Levy.

    Example 2 - On Thursday, Toledo police Capt. Wes Bombrys said investigators determined the crime involving Dallas Watts was not racially motivated. On Friday, police Sgt. Phil Toney agreed, adding, "After the investigation, it was revealed that the story told by Mr. Watts was somewhat exaggerated, although he was assaulted and robbed. His story as to how everything happened appears to be a little bit exaggerated.

    Why?  What do you call them?

    Parent

    Who says he dropped the keychain? (none / 0) (#159)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:30:27 PM EST
    It could have been tossed as I explained down thread.

    Taaffe represents nobody but himself (none / 0) (#178)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 05:53:35 PM EST
    Taaffe was never officially representing Zimmerman. Taaffe admitted he never saw or even spoke to Zimmerman after the incident, so obviously George never even had the opportunity to request or confirm Taffe to be his representative in any way. Taaffe was not a witness to the crime.

    Anything Taffe said regarding the incident itself and the aftermath is completely irrelevant and cannot be held against Zimmerman.

    What do you mean by pie? (none / 0) (#192)
    by Redbrow on Sat May 26, 2012 at 12:56:55 AM EST
    And where are you pulling these 'facts' and figures from? How did you arrive at '40 feet' and '18 steps'?

    The keychain was located about thirteen feet from the 'T' where the sidewalks meet, if the squares are the standard 5 feet in length. The keychain is around twenty feet away from the area behind 'Johns' backdoor where he viewed the struggle head on.

    Your cavalier attitude along with your not-so subtle jabs are getting old. You are just speculating like everybody else since none of us have all the facts yet.

    I deleted that comment (none / 0) (#193)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 26, 2012 at 01:47:28 AM EST
    for stating an opinion as fact.

    I also deleted a response quoting the Teacher's CNN interview as support for anything.

    After the fact TV interviews are not evidence of anything. Use what the witness said on her 911 call or in later interviews to cops. (And not the 13 page statement she gave to an investigator hired by her lawyer.)

    The Teacher was not able to identify either person at the time of the stuggle. She said during her 911 call, "I didn't see because it was too dark. I just heard."

    Her house wasn't even along the path where the body was found. Here's her house.


    Parent

    I also deleted (none / 0) (#194)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 26, 2012 at 01:55:48 AM EST
    Willis' comments calling Taaffe a liar. You may not call people liars here.

    And Willis' photos are not evidence or fact. They are his/her interpretation.

    Willis needs to state her opinion as opinion. And not post links to his/her own photos as proof -- they are only what he/she thinks happened. The calculations in them may or may not be accurate.

    Also, please remember to put urls in html format so they don't skew the site.

    Parent

    I concur All photo interpretations by me are est. (none / 0) (#218)
    by willisnewton on Sat May 26, 2012 at 02:12:43 PM EST
    All photo interpretations by me are estimates and guesswork.  I've never been to the scene and I have not seen an evidence map.  Google Earth is an imprecise substitute for eyes ears and a tape measure.  There is no one photo that places all the evidence in good context, like a map or overhead view would do.  

    Please feel free to critique my work here, or on my flickr site were I have made an honest and open-minded attempt to plot the position of the evidence "debris field," as I have been calling it.  

    http://tinyurl.com/8xjxm4y

    And if I took a good hard look at myself in the mirror I might have to  admit I am as guilty as Frank Taaffe of saying, "according to George" when I have not spoken to him personally.  But I am not a personal friend of GZ and have not misrepresented myself as such in so doing.  I've detailed his misrepresentations elsewhere, so I'll back off on calling him a liar.  In my opinion he is untrustworthy at best, and proven wrong already on several occasions.  His actions however are his own, as others have pointed out.  

    Parent

    Nagging 911 Question (none / 0) (#198)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 03:59:27 AM EST
    If the first two 911 calls were from 1211 and 1231 on Twin Trees Lane, why were the two addresses issued by the dispatchers 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2821 Retreat View Circle?

    No Movement (none / 0) (#202)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 06:02:28 AM EST
    Ciesla wrote that the ME people 'began to examine and move the victim.' He gave some details of the examination, then said the body was 'transported.'

    To me this reads as: 'They started to do X and Y. They did X, then they did Y.'

    If he meant that the body was moved from one part of the scene to another, it would be odd not to specify where and why.

    The body was face down, so they rolled it over to do CPR. Other than that, I don't think the body was moved until it was removed from the scene.

    There's something else I'd like to know (none / 0) (#207)
    by Mary2012 on Sat May 26, 2012 at 08:36:14 AM EST
    When exactly was it that GZ went into hiding?

    I can't remember where I saw it but it was stated/ postulated GZ went into hiding before this story received any attention and before there were any death threats.

    I would like to know for certain when he went into hiding/ moved out of the Retreat (on a temporary and/or permanent basis).  Why did he feel a need to move, especially since he was claiming self-defense, when did he find out that the teenager he shot was staying in the Retreat, etc.

    Shopping (none / 0) (#219)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 26, 2012 at 02:51:40 PM EST
    Jeralyn:

    Things I'd like to know: What time did George Zimmerman leave his house?

    The father said George was texting his sister, and told her about his shopping plans. Is she on the witness list?

    this thread is closed (none / 0) (#225)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 26, 2012 at 06:21:04 PM EST
    There will be a new one soon.

    Until then, I'll take the last word and caution readers to view commenter Willis' comments and calculations in this and other threads with caution as I believe they are neither accurate nor supported by the witness statements and physical evidence.

    I appreciate her contributions and the time she has devoted to analyzing the material, but I strongly believe her theories are speculation and flawed in several respects. She is interpreting the evidence, rather than reporting it, and she then relies on her interpretation to support her premise, which is that GZ's account is false. She includes or adds disputed and unknown facts to her interpretation, as further support for her theory. It's a house of cards.

    There is a big difference between theories based on reported facts and theories based on one's subjective interpretation of those facts, especially when that interpretation relies on facts that are in dispute or unknown facts.  It's an opinion based on an interpretation.

    The point being, her theories are still just an opinion, and one person's view of the case,  despite all the references to mathematical calculations of time and space and charts.

    Keep in mind that more discovery will be released to the media on May 31 (for an additional, as yet unspecified fee.)

    The Security Gate (none / 0) (#226)
    by PeskyVarmt on Tue Jul 16, 2013 at 06:07:54 PM EST
    I find it quite the coincidence that the route to the Target goes right past that 7-11.  In the video of Trayvon outside the 7-11, a white vehicle drives through the parking lot.  Exactly when DID Zimmerman key in the pass code to open that gate when he got back?

    Also, anyone else notice that "DING DING DING" on the NEN call after he exits the truck...as if he left his keys in the ignition?

    George Zimmerman: Missing From the Discovery | 198 comments (198 topical)