home

Zimmerman: Witnesses #2 and #12

The Orlando Sentinel reports that four "key witnesses" provided statements in March that differed in part from their earlier statements. The Sentinel portrays the changes as "major" and says they are potentially damaging to Zimmerman's case.

The four witnesses the Sentinel lists are witnesses W-2, W-6, W-12 and W-13. Two of them aren't "key" to anything. The other two, W-6 and W-13 are key, but neither changed the most critical elements of their accounts. W-6 didn't budge from his assertion that during the struggle he witnessed (in which someone cried out for help) Trayvon was in black and on top of Zimmerman whose shirt or jacket was red. W-13 didn't change his account of what he saw or what Zimmerman said, he just provided his perception of Zimmerman's demeanor when later asked. [More...]

Witness 2:

W-2 said in her first interview on March 1 that she thought she saw two people running and a fistfight. But she couldn't provide any identifying details because she only got a quick glace and she had removed her contact lenses. She said she left the room and went back to the stove where she was cooking. The next thing she heard was the the gunshot.

She was interviewed again on March 1 about distances. She clearly had no idea of distances, accepting whatever Investigator Serino suggested to her. He asked her how far apart the two guys were she saw running:

Serino: I’m going to step away from you.
About here? [He motions]
A car length? 8 to 10 feet?
About 10 would you say?
10 feet. Ok thank you so much

W-2 was interviewed again by Serino on March 9. She repeats that she only got a glance and she didn't have her contact lenses in. As to the running, she says she heard it than saw it and turned around and left the room. She returned to the back room after she heard the shot. She again couldn't identify anyone.

During this interview, W-2 either had trouble explaining to Serino where her house was -- or Serino didn't understand where her house was.

Serino: Were they running towards your house or away from your house and towards the T or towards the street?
W-2: Towards the T
Serino: So away from our house
W-2: No
Serino: You live in that row on Retreat View, right? If they kept on running, would they have passed your house?
W-2:(Pauses, then agrees.)
She can't answer how far she was from the men she thought she saw. She reminds Serino again she didn't have her contact lenses in. She says they were downstairs, she was upstairs.

The FDLE investigators interview W-2 on March 20. Same story. She doesn't know what she saw, she didn't have her contacts in or glasses on.

It's not that she changed her story. It's that Serino was so anxious to confirm a chase he disregarded that she was never sure of what she saw, she didn't have her contact lenses in, and she was clueless as to distances. She would never have made it as a witness about anything.

Witness 12:

Witness 12 appears to be the wife of W-13, who is the witness who ran outside after hearing the shot, took an i-Phone photo of Zimmerman's injuries (the one later published by ABC News on the day of Zimmerman's bail hearing), was asked by Zimmerman to call his wife, and was told by Zimmerman he had to shoot the guy.)

W-12 told investigators she looked out and saw shadows of two people, with one on top, but their porch light wasn't on and it was dark. She couldn't tell their size and she didn't know who was on top. After the shot, she saw her husband outside talking to one of them. He had a flashlight.

In March, she told police that having seen the photos of Zimmerman in the media, she thinks the bigger guy was on top and that would be Zimmerman.

I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," she said.
So W-2 is an irrelevant witness who never would have been called and W-12 is minor witness with nothing to add to her husband's account, other than what she concluded after seeing images of Zimmerman on TV. I don't think either one is a "key witness" who changed their story in way that could damage Zimmerman's defense.
< It's The Tax Policy, Stupid | George Zimmerman: Missing From the Discovery >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Witness 13 first interview (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Clara Bow on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:07:46 PM EST
    Zimmerman: "Man, I got blood on my face?"

    Witness: "Yeah, you got blood all over, man. I looked over and he's got blood on the back of his head. You alright man?"

    Zimmerman: "Ah, man this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him."

    Witness: "Did you use a 9 or a 40?"

    Zimmerman: "I used a 9."

    Witness: "Did you call 911, yet?"

    Zimmerman: "No, I already called. Can you just call my wife?"

    How odd is it that the witness asked "did you use a 9 or a 40"?

    And, how well did Zimmerman know this witness?

    When Zimmerman asked the witness to call his wife - did he then give the witness his phone number or did the witness already know it?

    How odd is it that the witness asked (5.00 / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 24, 2012 at 03:12:37 PM EST
    How odd is it that the witness asked "did you use a 9 or a 40"?
    Some people live in a different world from you and me...

    Parent
    perhaps W-13 (none / 0) (#77)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 27, 2012 at 03:57:40 AM EST
    also hasa concealed weapons permit. Have you looked?

    Parent
    Those are my thoughts exactly! (none / 0) (#50)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:16:39 PM EST
    How would the witness know the wife's telephone number?  Why call the wife unless there's a plan to move the car premeditated -- like a disaster plan?  Is this normal?  Most people know they'll get to make a call if arrested, right?  WHAT WAS IN ZIMMERMAN'S VEHICLE TO FORCE HIM TO BE SO CONCERNED ABOUT MAKING SURE HIS WIFE MOVED IT FROM THE CRIME SCENE?

    Parent
    Why wouldn't he call his wife? (none / 0) (#55)
    by Redbrow on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:54:16 PM EST
    Isn't it normal for someone who just experienced a stressful and traumatic attack to seek comfort in a loved one?

    Don't people who narrowly escape death tend to think of loved ones?

    Or maybe you are right and his wife was in on some grand conspiracy.

    Parent

    Come on, most people (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Sun May 27, 2012 at 03:55:06 AM EST
    that are in custody want their spouses called to let them know they won't be home as planned so the spouse doesn't worry, can call a lawyer if need be, and makes sure the car is secure.

    Parent
    Finally heard the interviews (none / 0) (#73)
    by Redbrow on Sat May 26, 2012 at 02:31:06 AM EST
    I just listened to the interviews with witness 13 and he denies knowing or ever seeing before both Zimmerman and Martin.

    His statements included "Sounded like a dog barking. Could not hear anything recognizable at first. Towards the end I heard help"

    This might indicate George's early screams for help were muffled.

    Also noteworthy, "matter of fact-like it wasn't a big deal" were the investigators words, not the witnesses.

    Bernie de la Rionda has a nasty habit of leading witnesses and putting words in their mouths that he wants to hear.

    Parent

    W6 mentioned dogfight as well (none / 0) (#74)
    by Cylinder on Sat May 26, 2012 at 05:38:27 AM EST
    In W6's revised statement, he mentioned the impression of a dogfight as well. Odd.

    Parent
    If they make it to the stand (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 12:43:44 PM EST
    Doesn't O'Mara just go after the fact that their stories changed about the same time that the marches and rallies were taking place and the media was reporting this to be a brutual racially-motivated killing of a young boy by a bigger, heavier man?

    I'm not saying they are lying, but besides time, doesn't the fact that this is such a hot button case make witnesses want to give the "right" answer?

    No. The State already has info on that (none / 0) (#51)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:19:38 PM EST
    Witnesses have proven to be un-moved by the me dia which is why they allow transparency.

    Parent
    You're joking, eight? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Gandydancer on Sun May 27, 2012 at 08:05:13 AM EST
    Serino's Theory (none / 0) (#2)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 23, 2012 at 12:50:58 PM EST
    Continuing discussion with Willisnewton.

    Having said all that, how do folks here square the growing possibility that the confrontation led (or occurred mainly?)  40-60 feet south of the T with the probable narrative that the initial blow was a sucker punch that led to both being on the ground/ sidewalk?

    I don't think that is the probable narrative. It's what we have, via The Orlando Sentinel and George Zimmerman's father. I think it's a simplified, incomplete version of what  George Zimmerman told the police.

    Chris Serino told the The Orlando Sentinel: 'Everything I have is adding up to what he says.' The released documents don't contradict that.

    Serino's theory of the case is summarized in his March 13 Capias Request (pp. 26-27).

    According to records checks, all of Zimmerman's suspicious persons calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects.

       * * *

    The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern.

    The first point is inaccurate. Zimmerman reported as suspicious  a white male in September 2005,  and a group of three men, two hispanic and one white, in June of 2007. Call logs.

    Serino didn't explain what either point has to do with a manslaughter charge, in the capias request or anywhere else in the documents so far released.

    For my argument, what matters is that Serino made both points without suggesting that Zimmerman had been anything but truthful. Serino's theory is not that Zimmerman must be guilty because he is lying and hiding something. Serino's theory is that Zimmerman is guilty even if everything he says is true.

    There is nothing in the documents to show that Serino ever changed that theory. Look at the capias request and Serino's reports. See where Zimmerman's statements are redacted, and see if they are preceded or followed by any hint that Serino disbelieved anything Zimmerman said.


    The calls you are talking about are not calls from the gated community where the murder took place.

    Parent
    Right, Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 23, 2012 at 11:52:24 PM EST
    You're right. Zimmerman and his wife moved into The Retreat in 2009.

    I had gotten the impression that Zimmerman was living there when he started his police calling career. I should have checked.

    Thanks for the correction.

    Parent

    The real question is -- phone logs (none / 0) (#52)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:30:58 PM EST
    How do you square that a would be teen criminal is not likely to be chilling on the phone with his girlfriend during a hide-in-wait situation?  No way around the phone logs.

    Parent
    Around The Logs (none / 0) (#60)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 25, 2012 at 04:41:22 AM EST

    The logs show the phone was connected. We don't know Martin was talking. That's just Dee Dee's word.

    Parent

    Why "hide and wait"? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Gandydancer on Sun May 27, 2012 at 08:12:30 AM EST
    As opposed to both reaching the T at the same time?

    OTOH, apart from Dee Dee's statement, do we know if time could have passed bedtween when TM hung up andwhen the fight began. How long between hangup and beginng of first 911?

    Parent

    Same Time, Same Place (none / 0) (#83)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sun May 27, 2012 at 10:13:09 AM EST
    I don't understand the question.

    The two parts of your dichotomy aren't about the same thing. One is about Martin's intention. The other is just a physical description.

    In the hide-and-wait scenario, if Martin made his move before Zimmerman reached the T, then they might both reach the T at the same time.

    How long between hangup and beginng of first 911?

    At least 12 seconds. Possibly a minute and 11 seconds.

    Parent

    I take this as more of an indictment (none / 0) (#3)
    by tigercourse on Wed May 23, 2012 at 01:12:03 PM EST
    of eyewitness testimony in general.

    "Yeah, I saw Marting beating up Zimmerman. No, wait, Zimmerman bear up Martin. Maybe I saw Martin and Zimmerman beating up another guy. Yeah, that one".

    "Most critical element", huh? (none / 0) (#5)
    by ks on Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:04:42 PM EST
    So, the formerly "rock solid John" goes from this:

    "Witness 6

    This witness lived a few feet from where Trayvon and Zimmerman had their fight. On the night of the shooting, he told Serino he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," a reference to mixed martial arts.

    He also said the one calling for help was "the one being beat up," a reference to Zimmerman."

    To this:

    "But three weeks later, when he was interviewed by an FDLE agent, the man said he was no longer sure which one called for help.

    "I truly can't tell who, after thinking about it, was yelling for help just because it was so dark out on that sidewalk," he said.

    He also said he was no longer sure Trayvon was throwing punches. The teenager may have simply been keeping Zimmerman pinned to the ground, he said.

    He did not equivocate, though, about who was on top.

    "The black guy was on top," he said."

    So he goes from backing Zimmerman's claims about being pounded and being the one yelling for help to saying otherwise but holds onto to who he thinks was on top but that's not a big deal because only the latter is the "most critical element"?  Uh huh.  I disagree.

    Zimmerman's (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:52:14 PM EST
    medical report indicates he had a broken nose, two blackened eyes, and lacerations to the back of his head, all consistent with Zimmerman's story that he was being repeatedly punched and had his head repeatedly bashed against the concrete.  

    Also people don't scream for help 11 times when they're the one on top pinning their adversary to the ground even when they have a gun pointed at them.  As well John did not report seeing Zimmerman pointing a gun at Trayvon when the screaming was going on.

    Finally though he later highly suspiciously changed his story, when Trayvon's father heard the 911 recording of the repeated screams he said that wasn't the voice of his son.  That's an admission against interest and all the more believable for that reason.

    The evidence supporting Zimmerman's story from after when the fight broke out is strong.

    Deedee's account in her being interviewed/deposed by the prosecutor is not very believable and full of inconsistencies from the time when she says Trayvon was "right by" his dad's Sanford house onward.  Zimmerman was out of site and she hadn't said he came back into sight until two minutes later.  Why didn't he just go into his dad's place and lock the door - and call 911 if he was afraid, which I don't think he any longer was if he ever was.

    Parent

    I find DeeDee's account very credible (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:32:33 PM EST
    She could have done serious damage if she had chosen to lie.  She didn't.

    Parent
    I think she is lying from just after (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Doug1111 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 09:55:40 AM EST
    the point where she says Trayvon was right by his dad's Sanford house.  

    She had previously said that Trayvon had shaken Zimmerman who wasn't in sight.  She then refers to two minutes passing but says nothing about what happens in those two minutes.  She talks about her "knowing" Trayvon was scarred then, and when questioned says it's because his voice was low. I think it was low because as she knew Trayvon was hiding in wait for Zimmerman to ambush him, and was talking low so as not to be heard.

    It's only after that two minute gap that she says Zimmerman comes into sight and then that he's very close.  All very suspicious.  If
    Trayvon was hiding near his Dad's gf's place which was at the far end of the complex from the
    T near which GZ's truck was parked, he would have had GZ in sight for a good while.  

    Parent

    I think it's easy to ... (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by Yman on Fri May 25, 2012 at 03:04:42 PM EST
    ... accuse someone of lying based on nothing more than speculation and an active imagination.

    Parent
    I think it is also easy... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Redbrow on Fri May 25, 2012 at 04:17:01 PM EST
    ...to believe someone based on nothing more than speculation and confirmation bias.

    Parent
    Good thing ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Yman on Fri May 25, 2012 at 06:05:50 PM EST
    ... I'm not doing that.

    Parent
    The black eyes might be the result of the broken (none / 0) (#17)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:54:41 PM EST
    nose...

    Parent
    Zimmerman's forhead was scuffed up. (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by redwolf on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:01:56 PM EST
    Only way that happened was from punches or having the front of his head banged/dragged on the ground.  Face it, Martin was beating the crap out of Zimmerman.  The only question is why.

    Parent
    Or, if they slipped on wet grass. (none / 0) (#84)
    by willisnewton on Sun May 27, 2012 at 12:17:49 PM EST
    It's probable they moved from the keys location to the body location via the sidewalk.  The body, shell casing, black flashlight and cell phone are all in the grass.  The tan bag in on the sidewalk, between the keys and the other stuff.  Common sense tells us that something caused them both to leave the sidewalk for the grass, unless for some odd reason they were never on the sidewalk.    

    If they were chasing one another, like a short quarterback scramble and one or both stepped on the wet grass they could have tumbled onto the sidewalk and grass with GZ sustaining injuries to his head - either some or all.  

    None of this would be PROVEN by any eyewitness.  But it's one explanation, isn't it?  

    Parent

    It's still pretty critical (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:18:15 PM EST
    That W6 is consistent that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.   That helps with the element of SYG / self defense of Zimmerman not being able to retreat.

    Parent
    Wouldn't it change if he was only restrained? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:57:23 PM EST
    IOW, if it was dark enough that the screams for help were such that the witnesses merely assumed GZ was being punched when in (speculative) reality, it's possible GZ was only being held down/ restrained?

    Parent
    Better way of putting it (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 02:58:50 PM EST
    What would GZ be in need of retreating from -- would his life be in danger if he were only being restrained?


    Parent
    How do explain his injuries? (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:06:14 PM EST
    If he was only restrained?

    Parent
    If Zimmerman was being restrained, there's (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Anne on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:31:54 PM EST
    no reason the injuries could not have occurred before then, is there?  The two of them could have been tussling and going at it before Trayvon, with his height advantage, managed to get Zimmerman to the ground and hold him there - and maybe that was prompted by the sight of the gun, or Zimmerman getting the gun out.

    And if you think about it, if the gun was already out, it makes some sense that Trayvon could have been the one yelling for help, not knowing how long he could hold Zimmerman, whom he had reason to believe was going to shoot him.  

    This is one of those cases where you need only change one thing to make another scenario possible.  And the unfortunate thing is that all there is to go on are Zimmerman's version and the pieces and parts seen or heard by witnesses, none of whom saw the thing from beginning to end.


    Parent

    I don't disagree (none / 0) (#14)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:45:25 PM EST
    And yes, Zimmerman is the only one here to tell the story.  But on the flip side, Zimmerman is the only one who could possibly go to jail.

    Parent
    Isn't that something all gun-owners are/ should (none / 0) (#16)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:53:23 PM EST
    be aware of?

    It's a truly big responsibility, nothing to take lightly, imo.

    Parent

    Preponderance (none / 0) (#32)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 01:22:47 AM EST
    The two of them could have been tussling and going at it before Trayvon, with his height advantage, managed to get Zimmerman to the ground and hold him there . . .

    Martin was uninjured, except for the gunshot and one knuckle. That's more consistent with a one-sided beating than with there being an earlier, more equal phase of the struggle.

    Listening to the screaming on the 911 tape, I hear wordless noises between the 'help's, which I would call 'shrieks'. That sounds like pain. It's more likely the screaming person was the one injured, and that the injuries happened during the period of the screaming.

    maybe that was prompted by the sight of the gun, or Zimmerman getting the gun out.

    And if you think about it, if the gun was already out, it makes some sense that Trayvon could have been the one yelling for help . . .


    There's no evidence Martin saw the gun before Zimmerman was down.

    This is one of those cases where you need only change one thing to make another scenario possible.

    Speculation about possibilities is great for a defense attorney looking for reasonable doubt. For prosecutors trying to beat preponderance of evidence in an immunity hearing, not so much.

    Parent
    Well, with Martin dead, I don't know that (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by Anne on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:15:07 AM EST
    there's going to ever be any evidence that he saw the gun before Zimmerman went down - we can't exactly ask him, can we?

    I have to think that both sides are re-enacting events in accordance with whatever Zimmerman told the police and what the witnesses reported, and trying to figure out when the gun came out.

    But...if Martin was straddling Zimmerman, isn't the most likely straddle-point at Zimmerman's waist?  And isn't the waistband where the gun was holstered?  If both of those are true/likely, how do you see Zimmerman being able to get the gun out and then firing it at Martin?  Wasn't Zimmerman taking a huge risk at that point that he would lose control of the gun and end up having it used against him?

    There is so much about this case that makes no sense to me.

    Parent

    It probably makes sense (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Thu May 24, 2012 at 09:26:58 AM EST
    If you were living in that moment and acting on reflex and adrenaline only.  I can easily see how Zimmerman could wrestle a gun out of his holster and firing with Martin sitting on top of him.  Think about a time you were panicked and were able to do things that otherwise, if you were calm and rational, you wouldn't be able to do.

    Parent
    Getting gun from holster. (none / 0) (#56)
    by Green26 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 11:55:25 PM EST
    Assuming Zim on bottom: if his arms/hands are both being pinned/pushed down, or if he was trying to defend himself from repeated punches with both hands/forearms, it would be hard to get gun. If one hand/arm is free, he could use it to get gun. If both hand/arms are free, he could have some defense with one forearm and still get gun. Especially if holster is on his hip.

    I would like to know the angle of the bullet going into the chest. Is it straight or is it rising? Also, is it coming a bit across the chest, or from straight ahead?

    Parent

    The most likely straddle point (none / 0) (#61)
    by Doug1111 on Fri May 25, 2012 at 09:41:48 AM EST
    to allow Trayvon the best position to keep hitting Zimmerman in the fact was his hips.  

     

    And isn't the waistband where the gun was holstered?  If both of those are true/likely, how do you see Zimmerman being able to get the gun out and then firing it at Martin?  

    So now you're questioning whether Zimmerman was able to get his gun out and shot Trayvon?

     

    Wasn't Zimmerman taking a huge risk at that point that he would lose control of the gun and end up having it used against him?

    That lends credence to Zimmerman's story through his father's retelling that he only drew his gun after it became visible in his struggles to get his head away from the sidewalk, and either Trayvon saw it and was going for it or Zimmerman feared that he soon would.  

    Parent

    I don't know where (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Anne on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:42:26 PM EST
    your hips are in relation to your waist, but in most people, it would be pretty hard to straddle one without being more or less also straddling the other.

    As for the rest of your comment, perhaps you are willing to accept that George told his father what his father has disseminated to the media, or that he is retelling it accurately, but I would prefer to get the story from the actual source, and that's something we don't have.

    But the reality is that if Zimmerman hadn't had a gun to become visible, or struggle over - if that's what happened - it seems like the cops would have arrived to the aftermath of a fistfight/wrestling match, not a fatal shooting.

    And to answer your inevitable question, no, I don't think they would have arrived to the aftermath of a fatal beating.

    Parent

    This (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Fri May 25, 2012 at 01:51:50 PM EST
    But the reality is that if Zimmerman hadn't had a gun to become visible, or struggle over - if that's what happened - it seems like the cops would have arrived to the aftermath of a fistfight/wrestling match, not a fatal shooting.

    Assumes a great deal.  Zimmerman had a gun on him - did he intend to stalk and intentionally kill Martin?  That's for a jury to say, but all signs are pointing to "No".  So then the question is, if his story is true and Martin ambushed him and a fight ensued, and Martin ended up on top of him, then how do you propose he would have kept his gun hidden?  

    Parent

    I think she's saying (none / 0) (#65)
    by amateur on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:24:21 PM EST
    that GZ introduced the lethal element to the situation.  I'm not sure if there is legal significance to that because IANAL. He had a permit to carry the weapon so what he did was legal.  You could argue it was reckless.

    Parent
    What was reckless... (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Gandydancer on Sun May 27, 2012 at 08:22:43 AM EST
    ...was Martin punching someone he didn't know was unarmed. The pont of carring a gun is precisely to make such behavior reckless.

    Parent
    The point of carrying a gun ... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Sun May 27, 2012 at 07:30:37 PM EST
    ... is to make fistfights reckless?!?

    Who knew?

    Parent

    about straddle... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Mhaven on Wed May 30, 2012 at 07:24:08 PM EST
    I was wondering the same thing..

    If Tray was straddling GZ, then how would GZ reach his gun?   And, how would GZ fire a shot that goes straight through Tray's heart?  Wouldn't that go in at an angle from that position?

    One witness said the man on top was up, and left the other on the ground lying face down!

    Possibly shot fired by pulling up on Trays hoodie to raise his upper body.  GZ curl arm around Tray's body,  and fire bullet into chest.

    May explain why almost no gun residue on GZ clothing.

    Parent

    GZ's statements should clear that up (none / 0) (#10)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:26:55 PM EST
    but once those initial injuries are "over with" (for lack of a better way of putting it), will mere restraint -- IF "John's revision is really what happened -- truly fit self-defense?

    I did a little research re MMA the other night (spending some time at one instructor's web site) and I'm not so sure the defense would be pleased with the description anyway but IANAL.

    Parent

    It's nice (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:28:17 PM EST
    that you are expanding your horizons!  :)

    Parent
    Hey, I figure if a star witness is going to use a (none / 0) (#13)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:43:34 PM EST
    particular form of self-defense/ sport to describe what he saw it would be best to try and understand what he is saying/ meaning!  


    Parent
    MMA Description (none / 0) (#30)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 12:06:01 AM EST

    I'm not so sure the defense would be pleased with the description

    How so?

    Parent
    The instructor differentiated (none / 0) (#36)
    by Mary2012 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 05:27:32 AM EST
    How so?

    "Play fights" from "Real fights".

    "Play fights" can land one in the hospital, i.e., injuries can/ do occur.  Same with a "real fight".

    The difference is in a "real fight" you know no one is coming to break it up, end the fight.  No one else is around, the police aren't on their way.

    Parent

    Real Fights (none / 0) (#37)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:46:37 AM EST

    The difference is in a "real fight" you know no one is coming to break it up, end the fight.

    I've done martial arts and I've been in real fights, so I know what you mean. In my experience this wouldn't make a difference for what a third party sees.

    Parent

    I didn't see your post before putting my second (none / 0) (#39)
    by Mary2012 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:56:57 AM EST
    post up.  It'd just occurred to me it would be more clear if I'd added the part re restraint.

    It might be what "John" was seeing or thought he saw...

    Parent

    IOW (none / 0) (#38)
    by Mary2012 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:51:18 AM EST
    TM might've initially believed he was in a "real fight" but once he realized others were aware he could've gone into a restraint mode (which I believe is also covered in MMA, restraining a person) to hold this strange man until the police arrived.

    I'm not clear at this point where "John's" observations would begin but for the sake of illustration, let's say it's at this point he shouts he's calling the police.  At this point both TM & GZ both know the police are on their way.  Before, it was just GZ that knew it; now they both know it and "John" thinks TM might be restraining GZ.  

       

    Parent

    and, to complete the speculated scenario, (none / 0) (#40)
    by Mary2012 on Thu May 24, 2012 at 07:19:08 AM EST
    and perhaps needless to say, it's at some point after that, that GZ fires his gun.

    IF this is the case, is it truly self defense?

    ----

    Good for you taking martial arts.  Seems a worthwhile pursuit!

    Parent

    SYG - Fighting to Save Your Own Life (none / 0) (#54)
    by CommonSenseForChange on Thu May 24, 2012 at 06:49:15 PM EST
    There is really very little dispute based on the evidence that Trayvon Martin was trying to save his own life.  DeeDee is a witness to the final moments that set the "wrestling" incident in motion and what she describes is assault and possibly battery.  A "thump" and then the phone was knocked to the ground in response to asking Zimmerman "Why are you following me for"?

    Parent
    this is your opinion (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 25, 2012 at 02:25:46 PM EST
    please state it as such. It certainly is in dispute from the evidence.

    Parent
    THAT phone wasn't knocked... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Gandydancer on Sun May 27, 2012 at 08:33:26 AM EST
    ...to the ground. It was probably in M's pocket at that point, and for some time thereafter. Unless DeeDee told Crump about "Get off, get off" her credibility is going to be underwater, btw. And there's a LOT of dispute about when TM realized his life was at stake. He may have found out seconds before he lost it.

    Parent
    Partial (none / 0) (#23)
    by ks on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:14:16 PM EST
    But he saw only the part of the struugle so based on his account we don't know if Zimmerman could have retreated before then.  In any event, his overall story has changed pretty significantly.

    Parent
    The biggest question, (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by amateur on Thu May 24, 2012 at 08:39:38 AM EST
    and one that probably can't be answered until we see/hear Zimmerman's testimony, is how he was able to draw his gun.  If TM was sitting on him "MMA style" it seems like it would be difficult to reach the gun.  This is where the re-enactment might come in handy.

    Parent
    I still think it was Martin who enjoyed the (none / 0) (#18)
    by BJohnM on Wed May 23, 2012 at 03:59:56 PM EST
    stand your ground exemption here. Young black kid is walking through a fairly decent neighborhood,minding his own business, talking on he phone to his girlfriend (obviously not engaged in illegal activity...because as backward as Florida often is, our legislature is still unable to make it illegal for black people to walk through white neighborhoods...and suddenly notices he's being followed by a white guy in a truck. I'd expect he gets a little nervous. The guy gets out of the truck, maybe even brandishing or exposing a weapon, and approaches and challenges the kid.

    Martin has a right to be in fear, so if Zimmerman approaches close enough, maybe Martin did lay into him. I think under stand your ground he had a right. The gun obviously got exposed at some point. I don't care how good his football was, I expect he didn't think he could out run a bullet. So Trayvon was standing his ground against a heavier, suspiciously acting guy who'd been following him for a while, and had a gun.

    I do not believe the intent of the law was to make the exemption available to both parties, so I believe the weight of the evidence clearly makes Martin the "threatened" party in all this. So it does not matter if he threw down on Zimmerman, and it doesn't matter if he was/did kick the crap out of him. Zimmerman is entitled to make a case for self-defense, but I don't think he gets the protections of stand your ground. That was already used up by Martin.

    Also, I hear all these stories about all these break ins in this neighborhood, yet these witnesses all seemed pretty nonchalant about a couple of people running behind their houses (I left the room), nobody had their lights on, and nobody came running when someone was yelling for help. Now I don't think there's some big conspiracy or anything, but if this was such a major concern for this neighborhood (as has been stated), wouldn't everyone want to be on the lookout for suspicious activity?

    He would have every right to stand his ground... (none / 0) (#20)
    by redwolf on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:03:45 PM EST
    if Zimmerman brandish his weapon.  There's no evidence that he did.  Even DeeDee doesn't mention a gun.

    Parent
    Several problems with your theory (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Wed May 23, 2012 at 04:04:20 PM EST
    1. Martin is dead and the only one who can claim SYG is Zimmerman.  

    2. It is not a "white neighborhood", but in fact a racially diverse one.

    3. Even if for some wild reason, Martin DID enjoy SYG protection, it still wouldn't apply, because everything that we "know" to date shows that Martin had a means and opportunity to retreat - thus nullifying any "SYG" assertion.

    4. Just because an assertion or defense is used by one party, does not mean it is "used up" for the other party.

    Just to start...

    Parent