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Thursday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:30:05 AM EST
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It's a court day for me, and BTD is busy at work as well. As much as I hate to miss slow drip of details from those attending the closing arguments in the John Edwards trial, that's the way it is.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< O'Mara Denies Giving Zimmerman's Medical Report to ABC News | John Edwards: Closing Arguments >

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    Donna Summer RIP (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by sj on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:33:49 AM EST
    I think maybe I'll watch "Thank God It's Friday" this weekend.  That was the first movie I ever saw on cable.  

    I always liked that (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by jondee on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:57:58 AM EST
    "She Works Hard for the Money" video she did..It had a very nice, compassionate, populist touch; unlike some much of the nose candy-fueled, self-indulgent crapola MTV put out in the eighties..

    Parent
    Ah, disco and the halcyon (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:55:05 PM EST
    days when I was 40ish..

    I've got every song she put out that was a disco hit. What a voice, what a loss.

    McArthur's park has melted.

    I feel old and sad.

    Parent

    Ah-HA! So, YOU were that ... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 02:56:17 PM EST
    ... older man in the platform shoes, liesure suit and loud, wide tie who kept trying to buy my girlfriend drinks that night, and wouldn't take no for an answer!

    Well, the joke's on you, dude, because she gave the drinks to me, and I was the one who got hammered! Thanks for the Long Island iced teas, man.

    And further, you should thank me and guys like me for being the primary reason the states raised the drinking age from 18 to 21.

    Aloha, Donna Summer.

    Parent

    Quite the image! (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Thu May 17, 2012 at 02:59:45 PM EST


    Parent
    So you were the dude (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:22:28 PM EST
    with the sock stuffed in his pants in a....shall we say....strategically obvious location???

    ;-)

    BTW - You didn't wear a tie with a Leisure Suit..
    The shirt needed to be an off white silk unbuttoned half way down to the waist.

    And I still feel old and sad.

    And 40 something wan't and isn't old. 74, now that is old.

    Parent

    And STOP saying you're OLD! (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by NYShooter on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:52:14 PM EST
    I'm not that far behind you, and the last thing I want to think about when I turn 74 is that crotchity character, jimakaPPJ, from TL complaing about how OLD 74 is.

    Think about it this way: when you turn 94, you'll WISH you were an OLD 74 kid again:)

    Parent

    I am NOT crotchity (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:04:43 PM EST
    He said kicking the chair and grumbling to himself...

    Yeah, I'm mostly positive but Donna leaving us just hit me. So many good things happened to me along about then on both a personal and professional level.... seemed that they were slipping away... and of course they had slipped away long ago except in my mind.

    Take care, guys. Our turn comes but we know not when. And for that we can be thankful.

    Parent

    You want old? I'll give you old. (none / 0) (#154)
    by NYShooter on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:51:38 PM EST
    It's been 35 years since Elvis died!!!

    That's it; no more talk about death and dying.

    Parent

    Hokusai.. (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by jondee on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:49:51 PM EST
    the Japanese painter: "Of all I drew prior to the age of seventy there is truly nothing of great note. At the age of seventy-two I finally apprehended something of the true quality of nature. At one hundred I shall have become truly marvelous"

    Now thats the spirit.

    Parent

    And yeah, your girlfriend ratted you out (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:23:40 PM EST
    lol

    Parent
    But 40 is indeed "old" when you're 19. (none / 0) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:58:44 PM EST
    Conversely, 40 is young when you're 59. It's all a matter of your present perspective.

    Parent
    With a big gold chain & hairy chest? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:05:53 PM EST
    Jim: "You didn't wear a tie with a Leisure Suit.. The shirt needed to be an off white silk unbuttoned half way down to the waist."

    Wait, we're talking about a few years before Scarface with Al Pacino -- "Say hello to my little friend!" -- was released, aren't we? My bad ...

    Parent

    Three or four big gold chains (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:57:57 PM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    For sarcastic unnamed one and pooch (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:12:55 PM EST
    Sheila would like for you guys to visit a local professional trainer for a little while just to diffuse the dynamics that your Dane has going on.  She was very quick to point out that she does not think anything serious is happening or has happened to your dog.  She's just big and throwing her weight around a bit, but she hasn't been doing this long term.  This probably isn't going to amount to a big job of any kind.

    Sounds like great advice, thanks MT. (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:15:16 PM EST
    And tell Sheila I said thanks to her too!

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:15:32 PM EST
    you know a thread is going to start filling up fast when someone mentions something about the Martin/Zimmerman case.

    amen to that GA (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by DFLer on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:18:15 PM EST
    I noticed a lot of new members here, who logged on only to discuss Martin/Zimmerman.

    Parent
    Well, it is the politics of crime website. (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:21:11 PM EST
    How many times can you argue over BO being a good or crappy potus?

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:33:35 PM EST
    and the fact that BTD hasn't been doing much political analysis here lately.

    The Casey Anthony case didn't elicit a lot of coverage here though IIRC.

    Parent

    LOL....apparently an infinite number of times! (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by ruffian on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:23:40 PM EST


    Parent
    I kind of want them to stick around (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by CST on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:33:50 PM EST
    I'm somewhat curious as to the political leanings of said new members.

    Somehow I have a feeling a lot of them fall in the "crappy potus" camp.  But I do wonder if it's from the right or the left.  IMO, Ron Paul is decidedly from the right (sorry kdog).

    Parent

    Am I too paranoid (4.00 / 4) (#174)
    by NYShooter on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:13:40 PM EST
     to think that this swarm infestation is not just a spontaneous, coincidental happening? They arrived in a coordinated sortie, reminiscent of the japanese "zeros" over Pearl Harbor. They all kind of share this smarmy, insolent, not quite toilet trained, face book generation narcissism.  They're overwhelmingly Pro-Zimmerman with a smattering of Trayvon Martin sympathizers. (But, those kind of remind you of the "some of my best friends are black" folks.

    I'm sure it's just a figment of my  delusional mind.

    welcome one and all, we love to have you. No, really:)


    Parent

    Earphones In Pocket (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:39:39 PM EST
    This is what leaps out for me. It's not consistent with Zimmerman attacking Martin as Dee Dee listens. It is consistent with Martin carefully preparing to attack Zimmerman.

    Not even Mary Cutcher has claimed to see Zimmerman stuffing something into one of Martin's pockets.

    Wait. (none / 0) (#70)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:18:42 PM EST
    Why do you think they are earphones are for the phone?

    Parent
    Old Saying (none / 0) (#74)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:22:56 PM EST
    When you hear hoof beats, don't think zebra.

    Parent
    That's a saying. Not sure of the relevance here. (none / 0) (#80)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:27:34 PM EST


    Parent
    It seems logical (none / 0) (#76)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:24:01 PM EST
    But you might be correct, Did you see another headset in the list of personal effects?
    Dee dee indicated he was using one. It also fit the description of him acting wierd(as people can appear to be talking to themselves), but I suppose he could have just been talking into the phone.

    Although z never mentioned a cellphone when he approached the vehicle.

    Parent

    Well... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:29:11 PM EST
    Headset could easily mean the phone itself. That seems more likely than meaning headphones at least as far as I understand the term. People don't usually listen to their cell phone on headphones. If it's a bluetooth style thing that's being referenced, sure. Otherwise I think they might just be regular old headphones and not meant for the phone.

    Parent
    Crump used the word earplug (none / 0) (#82)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:37:20 PM EST
    In his press conference regarding dee dee statement

    "Then the other thing, she believes the earplug fell out of his ear. She can hear faint noises but no longer has the contact. She hears an altercation going and she says, then suddenly, somebody must have hit the phone and it went out because that's the last she hears."

    Parent

    I dunno what kids do these days, but... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:45:23 PM EST
    So I guess we're all back to trusting her (second-hand) testimony again, or...?

    But then, how would she even know whether Trayvon Martin was using an "ear plug" or not? Is that a usual topic of conversation, "hey baby, I'm wearing earphones!" And wasn't Trayvon's phone out on the grass and not in his pocket (under yellow evidence marker #7) -- so it seems that it was at the very least in a more exposed location than the earphones. Were they plugged into the phone or wasn't it? Was he perhaps using the phone but not the ear phones with it? Or are we saying that he unplugged the earphones from his phone, put the headphones in his pocket but NOT his phone? Is that how kids prepare to attack people these days?

    All I'm saying is that I have a phone and I often carry around bud-style earphones for computers, iPod, etc. I never use the earphones for my phone and no one I talk to on my phone has any clue if I'm wearing earphones or not. Given all that, I'd hate for earphones in my pocket to be evidence that I was plotting to attack someone that killed me...

    Parent

    Most people I talk to (none / 0) (#96)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:05:11 PM EST
    Can always tell when I am on a headset.

    I don't know what you mean about now trusting  dee dee.
    If the Trayvon team claims he is using a headset and it was in his pocket, then something doesn't fit with their version of events. How can you disagree?

    Parent

    Eh, doesn't matter. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:08:15 PM EST
    It's all moot. The on-scene reports have the earphones outside Trayvon Martin's pockets, along with the iced tea. Things that were inside the pockets are listed as such (lighter, Skittles, cash). The earphones -- whatever they were used for -- are placed, by TWO police officers' accounts, by Martin's side outside his pocket. I don't know why the coroner listed the earphones as inside Trayvon's pocket or whatever, but that apparently wasn't how they were found at the scene, so there's not much reason to discuss that theory further.

    Parent
    Better Answer (none / 0) (#83)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:40:43 PM EST
    On page 16 of the evidence documents, the report of Joseph Santiago, there is an inventory of Martin's effects. Only one set of 'headphones' is listed.

    Parent
    And...? (none / 0) (#87)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:45:40 PM EST


    Parent
    Also... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:58:45 PM EST
    Also, I'm not very sure why you're bringing up those reports, as they place the earphones next to him OUTSIDE of his pockets (along with the can of Arizona iced tea). This is as opposed to the cash, Skittles, and the lighter, which were listed as being IN the pocket. So the most basic "facts" reported by the coroner that you're building your theory on may be wrong/misleading, according to the on-scene accounts. So you might want to not draw attention to those on-scene accounts?

    Parent
    Conflicting Reports (none / 0) (#163)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 03:36:54 AM EST
    While Martin was in the process of being transferred to the M.E.'s office an inventory was being conducted of Martin's person. I noticed the items collected for evidence were a bag of skittles, and Arizona ice tea can and head phones.

    Something recovered from Martin's 'person' wouldn't necessarily have been found in a pocket, but I don't think it would have been found on the ground beside him.

    On page 20, Chris Serino does report that the headphones were found 'next to him'. So we have conflicting reports. Serino's seems to be the minority so far.

    Parent

    Inventory (none / 0) (#164)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 04:00:44 AM EST
    Page 22 has what seems to be the definitive inventory of physical evidence collected at the scene. It lists the headphones as 'collected from with in [sic] the victim's pockets.'

    Note that items found on the ground are assigned numbered 'object markers'. Next time you want to claim the headphones were found on the ground, I would appreciate a marker number.

    Parent

    I am not sure you are accurate (none / 0) (#166)
    by Darby on Fri May 18, 2012 at 08:14:20 AM EST
    in listing what was in his pockets vs out of his pockets.
    According to Jeralyn in the subsequent thread, the ice tea was inside his pocket, not outside his pocket as you are claiming.

    By the way, the Arizona iced tea can (it was a can, not bottle) was in Trayvon's sweatshirt pocket. They put it on top of the yellow blanket/tarp covering his body. And it was Serino who asked Officer Doris Singleton (reportedly a narcotics officer) to interview Zimmerman that night. Serino was at the scene that night.

    Parent

    Read the report yourself, please. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Addison on Fri May 18, 2012 at 09:24:35 AM EST
    The report clearly states when the can was removed from his hoodie pocket during resuscitation.  It is clear that the can started out inside the pocket, and ended up outside, and it is clear how that happened. There is no statement at any point that the earphones (and nothing else, mind you) were removed from his pants pocket -- and yet Serino said the earphones were next to Travyon's body (along with the iced tea, which was placed on top of the tarp after resuscitation failed). So, it's a conflict in the report regarding the origin of the earphones.

    Pure speculation: the earphones were on Martin's head, under his hoodie, they were "removed" and set to the side during resuscitation. Later they were listed among his personal effects, which were grouped under the overarching heading "in his pocket".

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#71)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:19:14 PM EST


    Parent
    so what is "intermediate range"? (none / 0) (#2)
    by magster on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:50:44 AM EST
    Could make a world of difference, especially if the voice right before the gunshot can be identified.

    Elsewhere. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 12:26:32 PM EST
    On another thread someone linked to a site that said "intermediate range" is 6 inches to 30 inches. So, a range that encompasses virtually every possible theory/story about what happened that night.

    Parent
    Of Course... (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by ScottW714 on Thu May 17, 2012 at 02:05:09 PM EST
    ...a piece of evidence in this case doesn't clear anything up.  Wouldn't it be just grand if someone remembered they had security cams and caught the whole thing on video.  I am so tired of this case and the never ending views of people that don't know what they are talking about.

    Parent
    30 inches is still almost within a personal space (3.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:10:05 PM EST
    So one thing I think this definitely assuming its accurate puts to rest is that Zimmerman hunted Martin down like an animal and shot him from a distance. There was almost certainly a personal struggle.

    Parent
    Straw theory. (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:28:54 PM EST
    The number of people who believe that "Zimmerman hunted Martin down like an animal and shot him from a distance" is fewer than the membership of the New Black Panther Party. No reasonable person has included that as a possibility since back in March. The scuffle has been a component of every opinion on the case since the 911 calls came out.

    Parent
    I really wish you'd stop pretending Addison (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:36:33 PM EST
    Irrational people exist as the fact that Zimmerman has to hide proves daily. Go around internet message boards and forums about the case, esp on bigger websites and news sources and you are bound to run into someone who still believes that, or at least pretends that they do. It's not like everyone reads or watches  the news often.

    Regardless, I was simply saying what possibilities it constrained, not accusing anyone HERE of being unreasonable.

    Parent

    I think you misunderstand (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by sj on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:54:38 PM EST
    Addison never pretends, and is very precise.  I would expect that Addison assumed -- as I did -- that you were referring to this site when saying
    puts to rest is that Zimmerman hunted Martin down like an animal and shot him from a distance

    Because if I wanted to see what kind of outrageous claims were made on other internet message boards and forums I would go there and do that.  I wouldn't expect someone to take a claim from somewhere else that is clearly unsupportable and bring it back here to hold up as an example.

    But that's just me.

    Parent

    Excuse me for thinking logically (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 02:24:51 PM EST
    And pointing out that this effectively rules that idea out of the water. I will take it that everyone here agrees.

    Parent
    I have no idea what you mean` (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by sj on Thu May 17, 2012 at 02:54:20 PM EST
    by this.  It seems that you are trying to insult me, yes/no?  If so, you missed that mark with lack of clarity.  

    However, I feel safe in saying that it is a certainty that not everyone here agrees.  On anything.

    And I don't know if you think logically or not -- I haven't seen enough of your comments to evaluate that for myself.  But it isn't necessary to think logically to make sense.  And I've thought that you have made sense in other comments.  Or at least I agreed with you.  

    But I'll go back to the main point.  A) broad brushes usually get pushback and B) bringing dreck from other forums and message boards to support your position will also get pushback.

    Bringing dreck back from news sites is, however, considered supporting information.  Which will likely get pushback.

    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 03:53:22 PM EST
    It effectively rules out something that has already been effectively ruled out for months! The thing it rules out ("Zimmerman hunted Martin down like an animal and shot him from a distance") has not been anyone's "theory of the case" for a long, long, long time -- because of other evidence (the simultaneous 911 calls which referenced a struggle) which already ruled that scenario out.

    Parent
    It didn't really rule that out Addison (none / 0) (#31)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:16:39 PM EST
    That's all eyewitness testimony and eyewitness testimony can be incorrect or confused or even prejudiced.

    Physical evidence always trumps testimony in terms of evidential value.

    Parent

    Yes it did. (none / 0) (#35)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:42:42 PM EST
    Aside from subjective eyewitness testimony (although multiple independent witnesses never contradicted the idea that there was a close-quarters scuffle -- strengthening that subjective evidence into something more substantial), there were also screams audible on the 911 tape directly backing up the eyewitness claims, and which wouldn't have been there if "Zimmerman hunted Martin down like an animal and shot him from a distance".

    In any case, virtually no one on the vast face of Earth has forwarded a theory that "Zimmerman hunted Martin down like an animal and shot him from a distance" in around two months. Given the flowering of all sorts of other theories around this case, the absence of that particular one stands out like a sore thumb. The preponderance of 911 transcripts, eyewitness testimony, leaked physical evidence, 911 audio recordings, and other evidence led 99.99% of people to rule out two months ago the theory you said just got ruled out. Two groups that don't agree on anything else agreed on that -- it was ruled out.

    Parent

    I tell you, Addison (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by NYShooter on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:20:22 PM EST
    our new guests argue that your use of a colon, rather than a comma, is irrefutable proof of your subliminal agenda.

    Parent
    6 inches in intermediate range? (none / 0) (#7)
    by magster on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:12:45 PM EST
    Even I can hit a target within 6 inches. I was thinking more like 4-8 ft. It's not my words though, I wonder what the coroner thinks.

    Parent
    Well, I'm not the coroner (none / 0) (#11)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:31:53 PM EST
    Every coroner's report/guideline I've read puts intermediate range at under ~36 inches (but not directly against the skin such that there's severe burns, so about 6 inches away at least).

    Parent
    Okay, I've been staying out of the Z threads (none / 0) (#13)
    by sj on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:40:01 PM EST
    so I don't know what's been discussed, but 6 inches away doesn't sound intermediate to me.  If that's intermediate range, what would "close range" be?

    Parent
    So close there are severe powder burns... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 01:43:08 PM EST
    ...so under 6 inches. Or closer.

    Parent
    Intemediate range (none / 0) (#22)
    by Doug1111 on Thu May 17, 2012 at 03:32:37 PM EST
    according to a former coroner is one to 18 inches.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/17/autopsy-reportedly-shows-trayvon-martin-died-from-single-gunsho t-wound-fired-at/

    That's very supportive of Zimmerman's story.

    Parent

    Your link is mangled (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by sj on Thu May 17, 2012 at 03:38:00 PM EST
    But since I haven't been reading the Z threads I hadn't realized that Zimmerman story included the assertion that he had shot at intermediate range.

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbindc on Thu May 17, 2012 at 03:42:05 PM EST
    Zimmerman's assertion was that he shot while Martin was sitting on top of him, which would put him in "intermediate range".

    Parent
    Ah (none / 0) (#25)
    by sj on Thu May 17, 2012 at 03:47:52 PM EST
    Well it's true that it doesn't rule it out.

    Parent
    It does rule out (none / 0) (#29)
    by Doug1111 on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:08:16 PM EST
    the eggregious black Florida Congresswoman's statement that Zimmerman "hunted little Trayvon down like a rabid dog".

    Nobody who's hunting someone down to shoot them waits until they're less than 18 inches a way to pull the trigger.

    Parent

    Eh... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:23:14 PM EST
    ...unless the hunter, let's say, loses track of the hunted person in the dark, and then the hunted person pops out suddenly from behind a building, 18 inches away, and is shot immediately. I'm certainly not saying that's what happened (there was clearly a struggle, and there is no evidence that "hunt" is the proper verb to use), but my point is that the finding of an "intermediate range" means nothing insofar as making this or that scenario more or less likely, even the Congresswoman's inflammatory scenario can fit in quite easily. The angle of the bullet is a little more important, I guess, as far as forensic evidence goes.

    Parent
    Right link now. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Doug1111 on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:04:25 PM EST
    I copied from today's Zimmerman thread and fox must have changed the location in the mean time.

     

    Dr. Michael Baden, the former New York City medical examiner, said "intermediate" in such cases is defined as the muzzle of the gun being one to 18 inches away from the entry point when fired.

    "If the muzzle is right against the skin, that's a contact wound," Baden said. Anything beyond 18 inches is considered "distant" range in coroner's parlance, Baden said.

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/17/autopsy-reportedly-shows-trayvon-martin-died-from-single-gunsho t-wound-fired-at/#ixzz1vA9xbz5o

    This is very supportive of  Zimmerman's story of course.  


    Parent

    18 inches. (none / 0) (#32)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:17:43 PM EST
    I don't know what the Sanford coroner meant, but "intermediate range" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, so a coroner in NY may not have the same definition as one in Florida. I've seen everything from 18-36 inches. I am surprised this isn't more regularized.

    However, let's assume it's only 18 inches max. Get a tape measure, reel it out to 22 inches (18 for the distance, 4 for the gun barrel), and hold that at arm's length. It's actually quite a distance, the person is a just about where I'd expect a "normal conversation" distance to be, maybe a little further.

    So, again I'll note that the finding of an "intermediate range" (whatever that ends up being) doesn't actually support anyone's story in particular, as it's consistent with everyone's story, such as they are.

    Parent

    In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:43:23 PM EST
    From Forensic-Medicine.info:
    In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound:

    Contact wound - The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting,

    Close Range - The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting,

    Intermediate Range - The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away, and

    Distant - The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting.

    In the case of a fatal shooting it is often debated whether it was murder or suicide.



    Parent
    Obviously not definitive. In fact, (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:49:58 PM EST
    now that I read it closely, it's pretty lame.

    Contact is muzzle on the skin, but close range is 6-8 inches away? How about close range is w/in 6-8 inches but not contacting the skin. Etc.

    The FL ME has to explain "his" definition.

    Parent

    also (none / 0) (#40)
    by CST on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:54:35 PM EST
    3.4 < 3.5


    Parent
    Ha! Yeah, wish I hadn't posted it at all. (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:00:35 PM EST


    Parent
    Yeah, I've seen that too. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:49:30 PM EST
    You can find all sorts of different ranges on different sites. The one you link to conflicts with a half dozen others. That's what I'm saying. We can know generally what the Sanford coroner meant (intermediate range is, on average, around ~6 inches to 36 inches), but the exact range they're using for the Martin report is unknown since they seem to vary from place to place.

    Parent
    Suicide? (none / 0) (#176)
    by NYShooter on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:24:15 PM EST
    Martin shot himself?

    Parent
    What the police (none / 0) (#5)
    by jbindc on Thu May 17, 2012 at 12:26:51 PM EST
    told Tracy Martin

    Might add to the many "movement" discussions that have been taking place here.

    Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: "He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, `Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon `I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.

    "Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, `What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says `I don't have a problem.'

    "Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.

    "At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'" The Martin family has been telling their story as part of a campaign to have Zimmerman arrested. He himself has kept quiet.



    Parent
    Ben Stein to President Obama: (none / 0) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:06:59 PM EST
    "You're no Richard Nixon!"

    Heaven forbid ...

    Meh (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Zorba on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:21:24 PM EST
    What do you expect from someone like Ben Stein?  He used to work for Richard Nixon, as did his father Herbert, for that matter.  He has stars in his eyes when it comes to Nixon, and has never gotten over his idol-worship.

    Parent
    Zimmerman discovery to be unsealed today (none / 0) (#30)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:14:41 PM EST
    Zimmerman discovery to be released today

    "He's the kille- Oops! He's dead!" (none / 0) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:27:41 PM EST
    At this point, suffice to say that San Francisco's Zodiac story is on par with L.A.'s Black Dahlia and London's Jack the Ripper. Some notorious crimes seem destined to forever remain both troublesome mysteries and sources for endless speculation and intrigue.

    DId you (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:14:54 PM EST
    see the piece Aphrodite Jones did on the zodiac killer? She had made a compelling case that this one particular guy was the killer.

    Parent
    I saw the film "Zodiac" ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:10:37 PM EST
    ... with Jake Gyllenhaal and Mark Ruffalo, which was based on the 2002 book Zodiac Unmasked by Robert Graysmith, the San Francisco Chronicle's editorial cartoonist at the time of the Zodiac's crime spree.

    Intrigued by the movie, I subsequently read the book -- excellent and highly recommended, by the way -- and Graysmith also makes a very compelling case that "Zodiac" was Arthur Leigh Allen, who died in back in 1992. We now also know that Allen seems to have been a prime suspect for SFPD, too.

    But as I said, Zodiac is going to be one of those cases that will intrigue and confound people for generations to come. We can speculate, but 44 years ex post facto, that's pretty much all we can do at this point.

    Parent

    Witness statements, autopsy results now up (none / 0) (#37)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 04:46:57 PM EST
    183 pages of evidence including witness statements and autopsy results.

    This is why we have courts of law. (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:53:41 PM EST
    I'm all Zimmerman'ed out, and at this point I'm perfectly content to let them sort this all out through due legal process.

    Parent
    Which I'm SURE, Donald you will be perfectly fine (none / 0) (#66)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:07:14 PM EST
    If the charges are thrown out at a Stand Your Ground hearing. I can confidently assert that because you said due legal process and that's what a  SYG hearing is.

    Parent
    If that's the way the evidence points, ... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:20:52 PM EST
    ... then yes, I have to accept the court's findings.

    I mean, what else can we do? Personally, I really don't like SYG because given my experience with drafting criminal statute as chief clerk for the Senate Judiciary Committee out here, I happen to think it's a rather bad and shockingly ill-considered law, but as of the time of the Martin shooting, it was the prevailing statute in Florida. So if SYG serves to protect Zimmerman, then he goes free. The law is the law.

    (Just as it was across most of the country, "Stand Your Ground" was also introduced out here in the state legislature by the Republicans. We refused to even give the bill a hearing.)

    As I said on a far earlier thread, we may well find that ultimately, justice in this case will be served in civil and not criminal court.

    Parent

    Heeheehee (1.00 / 5) (#114)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:49:00 PM EST
    Not if Zimmerman wins at Stand Your Ground.
    Believe it or not, that would also serve to immunize the State from civil liability and make Crump cry as I'm sure he's been looking at the HOA and city of Sanford as targets.

    Anyway, thanks for your answer. I'm glad you agree that even a bad law is still the law.

    Parent

    Don't understand your glee. A young kid is dead (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by Angel on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:58:03 PM EST
    and you're acting like this is some game.  It isn't.  One person lost their life and countless others are destroyed or changed in some way that they might never recover.  Show some respect for everyone involved.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by Yman on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:01:51 PM EST
    It's pretty disgusting ...

    Parent
    Angel (1.00 / 3) (#149)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:26:16 PM EST
    When I see you say the same to Crump and the race-baiters I might take your admonition seriously.

    You DO understand that I think its most likely this is a political prosecution don't you? That is, I'm pretty sure it was political pressure brought by self-interested parties using disgusting tactics that pressured the State of Florida to ignore its own law and prosecute a man who should have legally been in the clear. And that I'm outraged that Zimmerman along with members of his family is currently in hiding, in fear of his life. I'm ticked off that as a white man I had to get "the lecture" again because of what happened between a self-identified hispanic with an AA great grandpa and a black 17 year old. Lastly, I'm a bit PO'D that IF this goes to trial and Zimmerman is unanimously acquitted in 3 seconds flat by a Jury that consists of all african americans, it won't matter because Crump can still use "public image" and other political pressure to extract a settlement from various entities. In short, race-baiting would pay.

    So please don't try to "police" my interactions with a politician from Hawaii who always toes the Democratic party line, even on racial issues. I'm honestly shocked he said he'd be satisfied with what a Judge decides if SYG is claimed.

    Parent

    The obvious hatred you have for Mr. Crump (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Angel on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:52:18 PM EST
    is borderline psychotic.  Get a grip and try to show some respect for the loss of a young kid's life and to his family and others who loved him.  

    Parent
    Respect for Martin family loss (none / 0) (#156)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:56:18 PM EST
    And disgust for crump is possible. The two are not connected.

    Parent
    Thanks for pointing this out, Darby (1.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:06:45 PM EST
    You'll note however, that I'll get no concession from all these "compassionate" people.

    Crump isn't Trayvon, and however deserved, tragic as in a mistake, (or both) or UNDESERVED (there's still a possibility that Zimmerman murdered him it's just not very high at all) his death was, that has nothing to do with what one should conclude about Crump and how he and his minions have conducted themselves.


    Parent

    No, Angel, I simply don't trust liars (none / 0) (#157)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:58:57 PM EST
    Actions tell all, and all I've seen is lies and misrepresentations from that man.
    Why should I trust him or his motives?
    Can you give me a logical reason?
    Because a kid is dead?

    Parent
    "Heeheehee"? (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:13:14 PM EST
    That's childish and insensitive. A boy is dead and a man is facing trial for his murder. This isn't a game. Grow up.

    Parent
    You treat our entire political system as a game (1.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:38:07 PM EST
    And denigrate those who vote their conscience.
    I don't think you have room to talk, Donald.
    By the way, as a POLITICIAN..someone with some actual power...what pressure you applying to the Justice Department to see that no harm comes to the defendant in this case and that a fair trial (assuming thats what it comes to) is held?

    After all, I'm Joe Schmoe. You are someone, even if only a "minor" someone.

    Parent

    TM had been living in the condo for 7 days (none / 0) (#42)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:01:45 PM EST
    at the time of the incident.

    Parent
    Zimmerman's nose (none / 0) (#43)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:14:26 PM EST
    It looks like Zimmerman's nose was laid flat during the altercation.

    Parent
    Apparently the cops decided it was GZ screaming (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:18:53 PM EST
    for help on the 911 calls.

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#47)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:32:46 PM EST
    "Several witnesses" all describe Martin on top and Zimmerman on bottom and screaming for help.

    Parent
    Red jacket/shirt guy (GZ) indentified as the (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:22:47 PM EST
    one pinned on his back calling for help.

    Parent
    Lead particle on right sleeve of TM's jacket. (none / 0) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:50:13 PM EST


    Parent
    ME says 2" x 2" stippling at entry wound (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:56:12 PM EST
    consistent with Intermediate range. 2x2 is intermediate?

    Parent
    FBI says screaming recording not good enough (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:56:52 PM EST
    to do a voice match.

    Parent
    HOA Neighborhood Watch encourages (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:59:20 PM EST
    calls to SPD if you see something "suspicious or out of place."

    Parent
    GZ listed as Neighborhood Watch contact (none / 0) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:00:30 PM EST
    person.

    Parent
    EMT report from the scene says GZ says (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:04:55 PM EST
    he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.

    Parent
    Coroner's report is dam chilling. (none / 0) (#54)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:06:05 PM EST
    TM was in his prime.

    Parent
    FBI Digital Evidence Lab pursued racial angle (none / 0) (#55)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:09:09 PM EST
    Page 147:

    TITLE: TRAYVON MARTIN - VICTIM
           GEORGE ZIMMERMAN - SUBJECT
           RACIAL DISCRIMINATION - FORCE AND OR VIOLENCE

    The audio analysis of the text following the F-bomb was inconclusive due to poor audio quality.

    Parent

    You would expect the FBI (none / 0) (#63)
    by SuzieTampa on Thu May 17, 2012 at 06:52:12 PM EST
    to be looking into racial bias because they were given the job of checking whether TM's civil rights were violated.

    Parent
    Crime Lab Analyst says sweatsheart shows it (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 05:28:42 PM EST
    the gunshot was a contact gun shot.

    What I picked up so far ... (none / 0) (#65)
    by SuzieTampa on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:04:25 PM EST
    what has been suggested, but now seems confirmed: Tracy Martin told police it wasn't his son screaming for help. I realize that Sybrina Fulton said it was her son.

    1. I know I've read people saying that TM's tox screen came back clean, but actually he had traces of THC in his blood. I'm not saying someone who smokes pot deserves to die, of course, but that was one more piece of misinformation put out to the Internet.

    2. was how dark it was. Because I live in Tampa, I figured it was just twilight, and not yet that dark. But clearly, it was, judging from police and witness statements.

    3. GZ has "IBS," which I believe is short for irritable bowel syndrome. With all this stress, it's not surprising that he would be losing weight.


    I read the same thing about it being dark, (none / 0) (#68)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:11:52 PM EST
    I wonder if it was dark throughout the complex, like where GZ first saw TM, or whether the lighting varies from place to place. Clearly, the reports indicate is was dark at the site where TM's body lay.

    Parent
    It was after 7:00 p.m. in late February. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:28:13 PM EST
    So, yes, it was dark -- and it was raining, too. That makes the scene even gloomier.

    Parent
    I had checked the almanac (none / 0) (#143)
    by SuzieTampa on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:57:01 PM EST
    because I didn't think it would be that dark yet by 7:15. (I live only a couple of counties away.) But I guess it was, at least in part, because of the cloud cover.

    Parent
    Darkness (none / 0) (#162)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:25:55 AM EST
    Austin Brown said that when he went out with his dog the sun had just gone down, there was only one porch light on, and it was 'really dark'.

    Some of the 911 callers also commented on how dark it was and how little detail they could see.  

    Parent

    I assume the lighting varies throught the complex (none / 0) (#145)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:00:33 PM EST
    from street lights to porch lights (if they're on) etc.

    Parent
    THC might well explain (none / 0) (#69)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:17:08 PM EST
    Why he was acting suspicious and like he was on drugs

    It was so sad and disturbing to read the autopsy. I had to stop

    Did anybody come across zimmermans statements to the police?

    Parent

    Please consider that ... (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:42:43 PM EST
    ... traces of THC can remain in one's blood for up to 30 days after one smokes marijuana. Its duly noted presence in Martin's postmortem blood workup wouldn't necessarily indicate whether he smoked it that same day, or one or even two weeks prior.

    Ergo, let's please not read between the lines of the coroner's official report and therefore assume something to be a possible exculpatory explanation, when it's clearly not been stated in said report as fact.

    Parent

    Donald I think you are wrong (3.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:28:46 PM EST
    I think THC only stays in the blood for hours, not days or weeks

    http://norml.org/legal/drug-testing/item/the-abcs-of-marijuana-and-drug-testing

    And What would be the point of doing a test, in this circumstance, where nothing could be conclusive

    Parent

    I'm not wrong. You are. (1.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:33:51 PM EST
    This subject is closed, Darby.

    Parent
    I think I'll (1.00 / 2) (#184)
    by Darby on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:28:11 PM EST
    take the word of experts in the field; which contradict your posts here.

    Parent
    No, it lasts longer (none / 0) (#158)
    by SuzieTampa on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:06:29 PM EST
    Trust me, I've got 2 job-hunting nephews. Or, trust Larry Kobilinsky.

    Parent
    According to the forensic (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 11:19:49 PM EST
    Pathologist on CNN, the lab results indicate usage within hours.   Job applicants are given urine tests usually, which can pick up THC for much longer.

    Parent
    Information. (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Addison on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:42:08 PM EST
    Look into this topic a little more than that one pathologist.

    Parent
    Maybe the Answer . . . (none / 0) (#183)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:24:41 PM EST
    Maybe the answer is 'nobody knows'.

    Parent
    That works sometimes. Not here. (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Addison on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:44:10 PM EST
    That's just hand-waving -- which is necessary for many questions in this case, but not this one. We have the actual ng/ml readings from the toxicology report. Those numbers mean something. We can see what they mean by looking at reams of reports and studies. We don't need to throw our hands up on this one. According to the amount of THC and THC-COOH in his blood and the overwhelming consensus of what those amounts mean vis-a-vis intoxication, Trayvon Martin wasn't high at the time of death.

    Parent
    Reams? (none / 0) (#189)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 07:02:42 PM EST
    You haven't cited reams. You've cited CNN.

    Parent
    Available on the internet. (4.50 / 2) (#190)
    by Addison on Fri May 18, 2012 at 07:08:54 PM EST
    ...I cited a Department of Justice report elsewhere (in response to Darby), but the information on ng/ml levels and their effect can be found in every case involving marijuana-related DUIs and in proposed laws concerning marijuana-related DUIs. The reams are freely available through Teh Google -- if you're not interested enough in the topic: fine. That is not my problem. But it's not at all controversial or disputed what I'm saying vis-a-vis the toxicology report and the effects of the stated trace amount of THC/THC-COOH in his blood. This is not a "who was screaming help" pseudoscience slap-fight. This is the official toxicology report combined with actual scientific studies and government guidelines judging intoxication.

    Parent
    What do mean it hasn't been stated as fact? (none / 0) (#85)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:44:59 PM EST
    Are you claiming he didn't have the in his blood?

    Parent
    I'm simply saying that one mustn't assume ... (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:53:50 PM EST
    ... that because Trayvon Martin had traces of THC in his system according to the toxicology report, he was therefore stoned at the time of his death, which in turn caused Zimmerman to think he was acting suspiciously as though he was on drugs.

    All the coroner's report indicates is that Martim probably smoked pot sometime within the 30 days prior to the shooting. Martin and his friends could've been smokin' under the football grandstands at school two weeks before, for all we know.

    Parent

    Except THC in martins blood (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:00:06 PM EST
    Does support zimmermans version of events; his claim that Martin was acting like he was on drugs.
    Or you would have to think that  Martin was acting like he was on drugs for unknown reason
    Or Zimmerman was lying and just got 'lucky'  that THC was found.

    Parent
    Assumptions (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:05:11 PM EST
    No it doesn't support it at all. Marijuana stays in the system for up to 30 days. The high doesn't last 30 days. Certainly not a high that would cause you to "act strangely" in any noticeable way. The THC in his system proves only that he took or was exposed to marijuana in the previous ~30 days (i.e. covering the time he was back at school). It doesn't disprove Zimmerman's version, but nor does it prove/support it.

    Parent
    What Addison said. (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:09:20 PM EST
    Nuf ced.

    Parent
    How can you say (none / 0) (#98)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:07:33 PM EST
    It doesn't support it at all? Are you saying there is no way he was high on the night in question?

    Parent
    No, I am not saying that. (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:12:37 PM EST
    Saying, "he might be high" is a long way from saying "he was high". We don't know. Because of how long THC stays in the body we can't say that a positive test supports the idea that he was high that night. It rules out a 100% assurance that he was "sober", of course. That can be said.

    Parent
    Darby, it neither proves ... (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:18:05 PM EST
    ... nor disproves Zimmerman's version of events.
     You can't just assume that the THC finding in Martin's toxicology report is necessarily supportive of Zimmerman's version to the point where it can be considered exculpatory evidence for the defense, because it's not.

    If the traces of THC present in Martin's blood were due to Martin's having smoked pot two weeks prior, then the coroner's finding is completely immaterial to the night in question.

    Thus, the coroner's finding of THC is entirely inconclusive regarding the state of Martin's sobriety the night of the shooting.

    That's all we're saying.

    Parent

    A side discussion, just something I find funny... (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:23:20 PM EST
    There's also the issue of whether a semi-habitual pot smoker would behave in such a strange way due to being "high" that s/he would attract notice from someone driving by. The idea of a crazed pot smoker on the street acting strange enough to get some guy to call the cops is kind of funny to me. That's not really their style. But that's a subjective discussion without definite answers...

    Parent
    Except for the fact (1.50 / 2) (#103)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:20:08 PM EST
    That he was also observed to be acting like he was on drugs.

    Parent
    Reefer Madness?! (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:26:53 PM EST
    What do you think someone on pot would be doing that would be identifiable as "on drugs"?

    Anyway, he was talking to his girlfriend and (if he's like anyone else I know) staring at the houses like a crazy person while talking. And spinning around, and looking at the sky, and whatever.

    Behaviorally, "talking on the phone" looks more like someone "on drugs" than someone who's smoked a joint -- as anyone with experience watching both knows.

    But, whatever. Our only point is that the report is inconclusive as to whether he was high that night. Given that the drug was allegedly pot, I don't think it's even relevant anyway, but regardless we don't know.

    Parent

    I completely disagree (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:36:04 PM EST
    Apparently Martin was doing something odd that caused z to speculate he was on drugs.
    If I am a juror and am being told that  z profiled Trayvon for no reason vs z claiming martin acted like he was on drugs, coupled with THC  in blood and a lighter in his pocket, I would think  i am going to accept z's version.  

    I know profiling isn't illegal but it seems to continually be part of this narrative.

    Parent

    Or maybe Zimmerman (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:46:01 PM EST
    knew that if he called the non-emergency number and couldn't tell the dispatcher anything other than "guy walking through the neighborhood," it wouldn't have constituted enough reason to send someone out to investigate; nothing like saying "there's something wrong with him," or "like he's on drugs" to get police attention.

    Whether it was justified is a whole other matter.


    Parent

    Darby, what exactly was it that caused Zimmerman (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Angel on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:51:31 PM EST
    to think Martin was on drugs?  What would cause you to suspect someone was on  drugs under the same circumstances...viewing an unfamiliar person  from a considerable distance on a dark and rainy night?  

    Parent
    Angel (none / 0) (#118)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:54:21 PM EST
    None of us have any idea, other than that is what z reported to the dispatcher. I think it was as z approached his vehicle

    Parent
    I mean (none / 0) (#119)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:57:35 PM EST
    As Martin approached z's vehicle


    Parent
    Freudian slip? (none / 0) (#122)
    by Angel on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:01:41 PM EST


    Parent
    I think you (none / 0) (#125)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:04:25 PM EST
    Dont understand what a Freudian slip is....


    Parent
    Oh, I do. But perhaps you don't understand (none / 0) (#131)
    by Angel on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:20:40 PM EST
    humor.

    Parent
    Right From The Start (none / 0) (#194)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 23, 2012 at 11:59:23 PM EST
    The 'on drugs' was part of Zimmerman's first description of Martin to the dispatcher, long before Martin started walking toward Zimmerman.

    Parent
    Because Zimmerman was (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:35:01 PM EST
    an expert at what people on drugs act like, and he got all that on Trayvon in the dark and the rain?

    Not sure you have any familiarity with pot smokers or the effect it has on people, if the THC discussion was any indication.

    Also, make of this what you will: according to the information released, every suspicious person call Zimmerman made was about a black male.

    Parent

    We're they also all males? (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:52:42 PM EST
    And how many were actually up to no good?


    Parent
    Oh, Lordy! Are you now ... (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:23:14 PM EST
    Darby: "We're they also all males? And how many were actually up to no good?"

    ... going to assume that some of the black males reported to 9-1-1 by Zimmerman in the weeks prior to the shooting "were actually up to no good"?

    You know, Darby, perhaps we should be asking YOU what YOU'VE been smoking tonight.

    Parent

    Clearly I am not drinking the crump koolaid (1.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:30:50 PM EST
    Nt


    Parent
    Enough already. (none / 0) (#140)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:44:59 PM EST
    Darby: "Clearly I am not drinking the crump koolaid."

    With that statement, I can only conclude that your primary interest here is race-baiting. Good evening to you.

    Parent

    I think that is the fourth time (1.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:52:52 PM EST
    You have bid adieu.

    Parent
    Not 911 (none / 0) (#179)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:53:02 PM EST
    black males reported to 9-1-1 by Zimmerman in the weeks prior to the shooting

    They weren't reported to 911. They were reported on non-emergency calls.

    Parent

    My comment clearly stated (none / 0) (#128)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:11:16 PM EST
    that they were all males.

    Read it again.

    Parent

    Anne that's a bit misleading (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Slayersrezo on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:05:59 PM EST
    Someone, on this site, perhaps Jeralyn, looked into Zimmerman's call history and found that most of his calls were rather routine, and even involved people of other races. The time period being referenced here is (as you can see from looking at Serino's statement)a period of a few months and consists of Zimmermans previous 3 or 4 calls.

    If you might recall, there had recently been quite a few robberies where the suspects were described as young black males, so it's not necessarily surprising that most of Zimmerman's more recent calls would be about them.

    Parent

    The information came from the (none / 0) (#148)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:15:02 PM EST
    police report, and referenced, specifically, his "suspicious person" calls - not the totality of his calls and however they were categorized.

    I think the point was that he didn't call to report on suspicious people of any other race or ethnicity.

    Parent

    Could it be that he didn't call (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 18, 2012 at 08:03:18 AM EST
     because he didn't see any others?

    Parent
    Description. (none / 0) (#180)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:57:22 PM EST
    At least one of the black males was said by Zimmerman to resemble a description of a specific suspect.

    Parent
    Erroneous Report (none / 0) (#192)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat May 19, 2012 at 12:13:43 PM EST
    The time period being referenced here is (as you can see from looking at Serino's statement)a period of a few months and consists of Zimmermans previous 3 or 4 calls.

    Sorry, that's not correct either.

    According to records checks, all of Zimmerman's suspicious person calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood  have identified Black males as the subjects. [Emphasis added.]

    Serino got it wrong.

    Parent

    Suspicious Non-Blacks (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:44:41 PM EST
    You are right about the information in the discovery, but that information is not correct. See here and here.

    It is correct if limited to a recent time period. Without the limitation it's misleading.

    Parent

    My Mistake (none / 0) (#195)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Thu May 24, 2012 at 12:01:50 AM EST
    Zimmerman and his wife moved into The Retreat in 2009. The earlier calls were before then, so the statement in Serino's report is accurate.

    Parent
    Excuse me, but that's not a "fact." (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:35:28 PM EST
    Darby: "... he was also observed to be acting like he was on drugs."

    That's simply Zimmerman's personal observation, as he reported to the 9-1-1 operator that night.

    The THC in Martin's system is a fact. Zimmerman's observation that Martin appeared to be on drugs is nothing more than his own speculation.

    Zimmerman's speculative statement is a fact. The substantive content of his speculation is not.

    Understand the difference?

    Parent

    It is a fact (1.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:40:32 PM EST
    Zimmerman observed  that Trayvon was acting like he was on drugs. Nowhere did I say there was proof he was on drugs, but the coroners report of THC in his blood supports zimmermans observation

    Parent
    What part of "THC can remain in (5.00 / 4) (#115)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:50:59 PM EST
    the blood for up to 30 days" do you not understand?

    Did you see anywhere in the report that his clothes or hair smelled of marijuana?  One would think that if he'd been out smoking pot, someone would have made note of the smell, don't you think?  Did they find traces of it on his hands?  Not that I read.

    You are adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.

    Parent

    Drug Speculation (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:41:07 PM EST
    Did you see anywhere in the report that his clothes or hair smelled of marijuana?

    Washed away by the rain?

    I'm with those who say that MJ doesn't usually make people act in any way that would seem odd from a distance. It tends more to inhibit activity. Whatever the meaning of the post-mortem THC levels, it doesn't support Zimmerman's 'on drugs' speculation.

    Parent

    Traces of pot on his hands (1.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:01:22 PM EST
    Is that something you would expect?  I don't get your rudeness. So you must believe from the report that it is impossible he was  high the night of the shooting. You are the first person to claim that.

    Parent
    Stop. (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Addison on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:06:39 PM EST
    So you must believe from the report that it is impossible he was  high the night of the shooting. You are the first person to claim that.

    No one thinks that it is impossible. You keep making up that absolutist stance, which literally NO ONE holds. You're one to talk about rudeness, huh?

    Parent

    Stop yourself (1.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:19:01 PM EST
    I think Anne can, and will answer for herself.
    It sounds like her comment that  I am making 2+2= 5 and no proof of pot smell on martins hands excludes from her position even the possibility he was high. Be patient and let her answer


    Parent
    Darby, there is no point in (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:28:57 PM EST
    continuing to engage you on this issue; several of us have provided information about THC that you don't seem to want to consider or acknowledge.

    The coroner's findings to which we have been made privy are not dispositive of Martin's being high at the time of the encounter; perhaps the actual levels will tell us more, but I'm guessing they will be inconclusive.  

    George Zimmerman is not, that I am aware, an expert on what "someone on drugs" would or could act like, especially given that it was dark and raining and he was in his car.  Pot does not typically make people agitated, violent or paranoid.

    Like I said, you are adding 2 + 2 and getting 5.

    Parent

    That's for sure. (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:38:36 PM EST
    Anne: "Pot does not typically make people agitated, violent or paranoid."

    Speaking for myself only, pot always gave me the munchies.

    Oops! Perhaps I shouldn't have said that. Now Darby will assume that because Trayvon had a package of Skittles and an Arizona Iced Tea in his possession, he had the munchies because he was stoned, and therefore, Zimmerman was right.

    I think I'm going to mix up a frosty pitcher of margaritas. Don't anybody get any wrong ideas.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Pass the pitcher this way, Donald; (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by Anne on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:43:53 PM EST
    Addison?  How about you - care for a glass?

    Parent
    According to Time (2.33 / 3) (#141)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:48:53 PM EST
    Paranoia is one of the most common unpleasant side effects of  pot.
    http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/06/why-pot-smokers-are-paranoid/

    Parent
    I am sure he was (3.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:40:43 PM EST
    Using the lighter in his pocket to illuminate his way home

    Cheers

    Parent

    Wouldn't Martin Have Eaten The Skittles? (none / 0) (#185)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:29:40 PM EST


    Parent
    Okay well than (3.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:33:51 PM EST
    Z maybe just got lucky when he pulled out of thin air that Martin looked like he was drugs and there is evidence that can corroborate it.

    Parent
    Who claimed pot made (none / 0) (#139)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:44:14 PM EST
    People  violent,agitated or a paranoid?

    Although I tossed the question out here just now and have a few replies that it can make you paranoid .

    Parent

    Paranoid High (none / 0) (#182)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:16:38 PM EST
    Pot does not typically make people agitated, violent or paranoid.

    Paranoia is not a typical reaction for the general population, but it is for some people.

    Parent
    Yes, Zimmerman's statement to ... (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:04:11 PM EST
    ... the 9-1-1 operator is a fact, as I said to you earlier.

    But you're clearly and erroneously jumping to conclusions, when you state here as fact that the coroner's finding of THC in Trayvon's blood supports Zimmerman's contention "that Trayvon was acting like he was on drugs."

    As Addison, Anne and I have said repeatedly here -- to no apparent avail, as far as you're concerned -- the coroner's finding neither proves nor disproves Zimmerman's account. The coroner's report doesn't say that Trayvon was stoned that night, nor does it say that he wasn't.

    Yet you're adamant in assuming that because Zimmerman said Trayvon looked like he was on drugs, therefore what Zimmerman said must be true, because the coroner found THC in Trayvon's system. That's specious logic, at best.

    Now, that's all I'm going to say on this subject. I'll let you take it up with Jeralyn from this point forward, if you must persist.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Also Not 911 (none / 0) (#181)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 06:10:20 PM EST
    Zimmerman reported Martin on a non-emergency police call.

    There are two ways to verify this.

    One is to listen to the dispatcher answer the phone, and compare with how the actual 911 dispatchers do so.

    Find a site that has the Zimmerman call and the 911 calls. It doesn't matter if the site itself calls the Zimmerman call a 911 call, as many do.  

    Huffington Post

    Axiom Amnesia

    If you listen to a few of the 911 calls you will hear the phone answered in a standard way. The person answering Zimmerman's non-emergency police call answers in a different way.

    The other way is to look at the call logs. In the heading for each report, after 'Call Source:', you see either '911' or 'TEL'. 'TEL' indicates a non-emergency call.

    Parent

    What is your source Addison? (none / 0) (#151)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:33:07 PM EST
    Everything I'm reading says THC is only in blood for a few hours

    Parent
    I'm no expert on this, and I'm too lazy (none / 0) (#153)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 17, 2012 at 10:44:37 PM EST
    to google, but iirc thc remains in the fat for a long time and in the blood for much shorter time...

    Parent
    Exculpatory How? (none / 0) (#188)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri May 18, 2012 at 07:00:26 PM EST

    Arguably, the more reason Zimmerman had to be suspicious of Martin, the more 'negligent' it was to follow him.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#78)
    by Darby on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:26:31 PM EST
    Crump called the police liars regarding Tracy Marin claims that voice was not his sons. Apparently though there were two officers present when Tracy said that.

    Parent
    For Those Wanting to do Their Own Research (none / 0) (#77)
    by RickyJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:26:19 PM EST

    Raw evidence with many redactions. I haven't noticed anything to support the second degree murder charges yet.

    I used the link button but it didn't work. (none / 0) (#79)
    by RickyJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:27:28 PM EST
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

    Parent
    Here, I fixed it for you. (none / 0) (#88)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:47:59 PM EST
    LINK.

    Sometimes, your browser software (i.e., MS Internet Explorer) will block something that opens a new pop-up window. If that's the case with you, click when prompted to allow temporary pop-ups to appear the next time this happens.

    Parent

    Link Button Doesn't work with Firefox 12.0 (none / 0) (#104)
    by RickyJ on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:21:34 PM EST

    The popup comes up and you fill in the link and it then appears in your comment.  But when you preview or post your comment, the link is gone.  I'm posting this with the CNN website linked above it.  Does it appear?  When I just copy and paste the link into the comment box, without any html, they always appear without problem like in http://cnn.com

    Parent

    Then next time, use traditional ... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu May 17, 2012 at 08:43:21 PM EST
    ... HTML command formatting to post a link. I don't use Firefox myself, so I can't really resolve your problem with that browser.

    Parent
    Witness: Zimmerman beaten "MMA style" (none / 0) (#90)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 07:53:43 PM EST
    From page 38:

    On 2/26/2012 at approximately 2015 hours I interviewd [redacted]. [Redacted] stated that while inside of his residence he heard a commotion coming from the walk way behind his residence. When he investigated, he witnessed a black male, wearing a dark colorored "hoodie" on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help. He elaborated by stating the black male was mounted on the white of Hispanic male and throwing punches "MMA (mixed martial arts) style."

    This witness was 30 feet directly in front of the altercation.

    FDLE Firearms Lab (none / 0) (#127)
    by Cylinder on Thu May 17, 2012 at 09:11:06 PM EST
    From the FDLE firearms report at page 122:

    The sweatshirts each display a hole located in the upper left chest area. The areas around these holes were microscopically examined and chemically processed for the presence of gunshot residues, Both holes display residues and physical effects consistent with a contact shot.

    Distance tests were conducted using fabric cut from the back of each of the sweatshirts, as well as the Exhibit TS-1 pistol [ed: this is Zimmerman's weapon], magazine and one of the TS-1 cartridges from Submission 1. These tests along with the other test materials generated during examination are being returned in the same container as their respective exhibit.
    From our "Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs" file: (none / 0) (#169)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:32:31 PM EST
    Arizona Sec. of State Ken Bennett goes full tilt birther boogie, and threatens to keep President Obama off the ballot unless Hawaii Dept. of Health officials can provide "a verification in lieu of a certified copy of a birth certificate" that Obama was in fact born in Honolulu.

    (As defined by Hawaii statute, "verification in lieu of a certified copy of a birth certificate" simply means that Dept. of Health officials can confirm in writing that they have the original copy of Obama's 1961 birth certificate in their possession -- which, of course, every Republican who's still the least bit phuquing sane knows that they do.)

    Anyway, nobody can accuse our exasperated Gov. Neil Abercrombie of not maintaining his sense of humor while retaliating in kind. In the weeks since Bennett's initial request, per the governor's directive, Hawaii DOH officials have put Bennett through the classic bureaucratic shuffle by:

    • Forcing Arizona officials to repeatedly provide them with proof that Bennett really is who he says he is; then
    • Requiring Bennett to provide the specific references to Arizona statute proving that he as Arizona Secretary of State really is the person responsible for the ballots; and
    • Asking for a signed letter from the Arizona Attorney General and / or gov. Brewer confirming that the Secretary of State does indeed have this authority.

    Frankly, I think this is potentially a gift from the political gods for Democrats. Hawaii officials should simply call Bennett's bluff and tell him to shove off, thus forcing the Arizona GOP and Republican National Committee into a political corner regarding Bennett's threat to keep Obama off the ballot, which holds rich potential for them to suffer a serious self-inflicted wound at the hands of their own right-wing extremists.

    Aloha.

    Arizona (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by kmblue on Fri May 18, 2012 at 02:39:52 PM EST
    is a beautiful state.  How did it get populated by loonies?

    Parent
    Just send the verification and shut up (1.00 / 3) (#178)
    by Slayersrezo on Fri May 18, 2012 at 05:45:26 PM EST
    It's true that with two contemporaneous newspaper articles stating he was born there the birthers are a bunch of idiots.

    But the real question here is : does Bennett have the authority to ask for documentation of that type? If he does, giving it to him will only serve to quiet the idiots. Withhold it out of political gamesmanship, however, and don't be surprised if Obama doesn't appear after all.

    And then I'll be laughing at you.

    Parent

    Nothing (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 18, 2012 at 08:32:51 PM EST
    quiets these idiots. So it really doesn't matter what you do.

    Parent
    Hawaii has been sending out ... (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat May 19, 2012 at 06:12:02 PM EST
    ... verifications preapetedly, for over four years now. Nothing satisfies these people. At this point, you declare it to be nothing more than harrassing chatter, and you ignore it.

    So, go ahead, Arizona Republicans -- try to disqualify the incumbent president from the ballot based upon this incident. Watch what happens to you in both the federal courts and the court of public opinion.

    Parent

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